Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 200 .. 220 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Raz Xym
Speaker for the Dead Get Off My Lawn
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:36:29 -
[3751] - Quote
Since you can already just buy a character from the bazaar, I am willing to go along with this idea. I know I don't like the feel of it, at first glance it seems too pay2win. But I am not sure you can pay to win in this game. 90% of the time anyone who tries this ends up paying to lose.
plus: - may help with new player retention - allows vets to shed those embarrassing mining skills - works within the game - less issues than buying characters (history, cumbersome, name, etc)
I am glad they are putting out the feelers real early on this feature. I am sure there are many in's and out's that need to be thought about. I would even put in a monthly/weekly limit on the numbers of packs/skill points one can gain via this mechanism. Introduce it slowly with throttles. Perhaps open it up later once everyone is comfortable how it is going. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:37:14 -
[3752] - Quote
afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs
not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.
if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:42:06 -
[3753] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? Your and Tippia's argument is actually one of the more valid ones, in this sea of nonsense these past pages have been. I think you guys have a point and the feature needs to be balanced around this. Either that, or some other major balance changes in the game needs to be made, so instantly trained alts could not be an issue. However, there is a problem with retaining new players. And how the skill queue is a bad mechanic that does not promote active play. Maybe this is not the solution, but I commend CCP for trying to solve this issue and proposing such a controversial change to how skills are trained. But it is also very naive to say there does not exist a problem. Basically, the skill queue and its afk promoting properties is the problem, and something drastic needs to happen with EvE in order to attract new players and promote what EvE is really about. Being actively out in space, creating interaction between players and not sitting in a station ship spinning, waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
But you see that is the very problem at hand and why I refer to it as a paradox.
I don't think anyone is (seriously) suggesting vets will use this on mains (save for T3 skill point loss), but what we WILL do is ruthlessly recycle and create instant, tailor made, anonymous alts. Now - for this to be impossible for us yet somehow work for a newbean is....essentially unsolvable.
Unless (and this just hit me) the skill points only go to the character on the account with the highest skill points irrespective of who uses the packet - like current rewards. Then you would really tighten up on vet abuse - but I don't think they're going down this route (and it's is probably mechanically improbable).
In summary without massive restrictions (like mentioned) if these packets are in any way, shape or form accessible and useful for the newbros it is doomed to abuse by people like me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:43:01 -
[3754] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".
New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:44:20 -
[3755] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.
you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online?
edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:45:09 -
[3756] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1665
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:51:38 -
[3757] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market.
Yeh, and?
That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want."
In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:54:31 -
[3758] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market. Yeh, and? That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want." In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service. Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:56:47 -
[3759] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online? edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago.
Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code.
Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly.
My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls.
We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I whom probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features.
As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo. |
Serina Ieri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:59:10 -
[3760] - Quote
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.
Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. |
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:01:54 -
[3761] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online? edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago. Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code. Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly. My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls. We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I, who probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features. As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo.
could always just drop it in as a training speed booster. 500,000 SP extracted to make the next 1,000,000 train at twice the speed (no net gain as you'd have already trained half of those anyway), appropriate diminishing returns etc.
allows people to catch up without "instant" things happening. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:02:40 -
[3762] - Quote
Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW.
so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players?
why is that a good thing? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12748
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:02:52 -
[3763] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them.
You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right? |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1665
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:04:12 -
[3764] - Quote
Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.
Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here.
With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top.
No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2567
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:11:12 -
[3765] - Quote
Is now a bad time to say I think all new subs should get 10m SP to allocate on day one as they see fit, to help get over that initial SP grind ballache?
Would you like to know more?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:11:54 -
[3766] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players? why is that a good thing?
Didnt seem to bother you about it a few hours ago, You just spent the past 3 days / 170 pages on how wonderful it will be.
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:12:12 -
[3767] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them. You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right?
I agree on the Titan/Super front. After all it was my old 5 man corp that managed to crank out a Nyx when they were released while alliances of the time were still scratching their balls, so I am well aware that cost is a poor prohibitor in eve.
That being said, Cyno alts ain't no Super. Brute force your way through the cost of a Super and you have something to show for it. Wasting money on Cyno alts is a lot of wasted ISK for very very little benefit. The cost to benefit ratio is significantly different. |
Serina Ieri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:13:22 -
[3768] - Quote
Your response indicates that you are unfortunately missing the beauty that has been Eve Online. A new player who wisely spends their skill points and educates themselves on what their initial focus will be can be extremely effective. They will also appreciate the complexity and vastness of the game as they continue to progress through their skills of choice - all the while learning the game.
The quick win, max level mindset of today is not what this game was designed for.
I'm hoping CCP stays true to its roots.
Take care. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
530
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:15:06 -
[3769] - Quote
While it may be a fundamental shift in the way people view Characters and SP, the more I think about it the more I like the idea.
A couple of my favorite positives:
It finally gives EVE a SP Sink other than Characters who biomass. People won't need to wait several years to have the SP needed to compete in tournament gameplay without a large SP handicap.
In my dream world hopefully there will be a natural sink when SP is extracted (50k per extraction?) and the AUR price is high enough to put it at something like 2k isk per SP once the market balances out. Additionally, I think the suggestions on a yearly cap for number of extractions/injections has some merit.
- Than |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:17:48 -
[3770] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players? why is that a good thing? Didnt seem to bother you about it a few hours ago, You just spent the past 3 days / 170 pages on how wonderful it will be.
wrong. |
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:18:11 -
[3771] - Quote
On a slightly different and more constructive note, what about an idea of applying a jump fatigue-esque mechanism to these SP injections rather than the diminishing returns? Want to use them as a one off to get into that ship you've always wanted, go nuts. Keep jabbing yourself like a SP crazed junkie then your going to have to wait a very long time before you can do it again as penance for those initial few jumps in SP.
1st Injection, 24 hours until you can use another with a 4 week extended timer. Use another in that 4 week window and your first timer for your second injection is suddenly a week. Do it again and its now a month plus. A few injections later you've locked yourself out of using this feature for a year or more. The only abuse this leaves is a real low SP alts, which lets face it with the starting player boosts, implants and accelerators was never a big wait to begin with. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1039
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:18:28 -
[3772] - Quote
Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal.
Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:19:54 -
[3773] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.
But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:21:39 -
[3774] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion: Jeremiah Saken wrote:Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal. Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.
Yea, with a character purchase I get a lot more bang for my buck. That Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5 comes with another 100+ skills to back it up, all for the same click of a button. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:26:46 -
[3775] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would. Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here. With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top. No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:28:00 -
[3776] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not. But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D
to be fair, i'm not sure it matters.
nobody seems to be able to make their mind up about it.
"vets will abuse it cos they're rich" "vets won't abuse it because you get bugger all sp back"
"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
now, we're getting down to semantics but i interpret that to mean things that were designed for new players specifically as it says "on behalf of". *shrug* |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:33:28 -
[3777] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would. Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here. With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top. No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? That's what SP already is -- a tax.. on content.
The core of such a redesign is increased retention. That's the providence, not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity.
This announcement still has the problem of vet abuse for any specific alt, and that being nerfed comes with the cost of helping fresh characters as much.. or at the cost of being interesting for vets at all. Then is the issue of actually increasing sustain, because progression is still just payments on top of more.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:34:31 -
[3778] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Seems I am getting better at "Dave Stark" posting, now you are even trying to provide meaningful answer :D
silly questions, silly answers... ;) |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1279
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:38:03 -
[3779] - Quote
I have removed some crap, but admittedly, not all the crap. I will continue working towards this goal. Please assist me by following our forum rules.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9335
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:40:35 -
[3780] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!? Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not. EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that.
I'm glad that I could be of assistance in helping you join the community. You have been subbed since late 2014 and thanks to me you have now made your very first contribution to the forums.
I feel kind of special when things like this happen.
Welcome to EVE, good citizen.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 200 .. 220 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |