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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:22:34 -
[1291] - Quote
If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:23:23 -
[1292] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:People dont quit eve because skill points prevent them to play. Just as nobody buys from the CB, because it doesn't get you anything but SP.
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Varrik Kayne
Ghost Operations Tactical Unit
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:23:27 -
[1293] - Quote
I think it's just best that you remove this awful Post and pretend it never happened, then cloak up and hide... like forever. |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:J Livermore wrote:Not coming yet.
But if you think this will be last step you're kinda naive. So we're back to slippery slope? Maybe instead of me being naive you're just too cynical.
I hope you're right and I'm too cynical. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:12 -
[1295] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question, how often have you protested the existence of PLEX? PLEX and the Character Bazaar are a necessary evil - because the players will do it anyway. This goes from sanitizing and tolerating a crappy market to actively encouraging it. In a perfect world PLEX and the Bazaar wouldn't need to exist. Even if we hold that position, by creating an official process for it CCP already moved beyond simple tolerance to being complicit with and policing transfers.
Further this way we can get some gameplay out of them. Can't scam on character transfers, but skill packets? Sounds very much so.
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Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:33 -
[1296] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:I dont know if it is really complex to see or just plain looking the other way.
I have a char with X SP. Today I can buy in the Bazaar a char with X+Y SP under the penalty that everyone can see with a little intel that my char is a bought one. That is still buying SP, but in a kinda messy way. Just as the dev says.
I have a char with X SP. After the theoric implementation of this, I buy a thing (whatever it may be) that adds SP to this char and it end up with X + Y SP. We just removed the penalty and we have something that only represents the act of add SP to a char.
That is a SP token by definition. IT does not matter how it got to the market. It is like refined ore. It wont stop being refined ore just because you bought it instead of refining yourself.
I think it's important to note that the new system will also tax skill points, so while you are adding Y to your character someone else just lost Y + penalty
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Indy Rider
Sudden Buggery
25
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:26:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:I feel sorry for this game i really do its at rock bottom.
Can I buy some SP off you? |
Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
52
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:27:42 -
[1298] - Quote
Pay to win = create something from nothing and paying IRL cash for it (ie Everquest buy lv 85 toon with max AA and full set of gear, think even world of warcraft had such were could just bump up a toon to max level or something)
Dont quite think this equates to pay to win, as it is not createing skill points out of thin air and giveing them to someone |
Laendra
Universalis Imperium The Bastion
75
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:28:44 -
[1299] - Quote
OMG not only no, but HELL NO. I can't believe you guys even presented this after P2W scandal from a few years ago...
The absolute most I would want (which would be completely awesome)...
Placing some kind of "Neural Net Token" on the contract system (auction or wts).
What this entails is transferring your character (for 2 plex) into the Neural Net, so that only the skills trained come along with it. This deposits a Neural Net Token into your redeeming system that you can redeem and put on contract.
Players can view the contents of the Neural Net Token to see the skill breakdown while it is on contract. Once a player wins the Token, they transfer it to a character on the account to which they want the pilot, and then can extract the pilot from the Neural Net into a blank clone, at which point they are able to set appearance, name, etc. as they see fit.
If you are the creator of the token, you can restore your character completely from the token if you change your mind, and the Plex come back to your redeeming system.
Please, please, for the love of God, do NOT implement what you proposed. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:28:55 -
[1300] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:I dont know if it is really complex to see or just plain looking the other way.
I have a char with X SP. Today I can buy in the Bazaar a char with X+Y SP under the penalty that everyone can see with a little intel that my char is a bought one. That is still buying SP, but in a kinda messy way. Just as the dev says.
I have a char with X SP. After the theoric implementation of this, I buy a thing (whatever it may be) that adds SP to this char and it end up with X + Y SP. We just removed the penalty and we have something that only represents the act of add SP to a char.
That is a SP token by definition. IT does not matter how it got to the market. It is like refined ore. It wont stop being refined ore just because you bought it instead of refining yourself. The only penalty imposed before in your example is a link to your original identity, whereas buying the SP remains with your original identity, so that's a non-issue. Unless you are suggesting the idea that someone needs outed for buying SP (which is easily bypassed using an alt to facilitate the trade) or that this comes with some automatic negative?
What's the actual penalty? |
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
695
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:30:15 -
[1301] - Quote
The logic behind people saying they're going to quit is mind-boggling.
Ugggghhhh MORE people to compete with, no thanks.
Why are you playing an MMO when the prospect of more competition, more interaction leads you to want to pack up and go home?
cuz ur bad and the only chance you ever stood was thanks to your "i got here first" advantage. |
Jerika Bodet
Kingdom of Glory
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:34:15 -
[1302] - Quote
Someone told me the end of the World was coming soon. I laughed, but the I saw this post and knew it to be true! |
JetStream Drenard
Black Fox Marauders
68
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:37:27 -
[1303] - Quote
CCP respectfully,
My statement is from the point of view of a die hard Eve PvPer.
I think you took a great idea that is assisting new player retention and missed the mark completely. About skill trading, I honestly don't care, though I do think the SP cap on the usefulness of this program is a bit onerous. There are two sides to the debate, and both sides have merit. But what you seemed to have missed or written off, is the fitting/ capacitor/ some support skills are a HUGE roadblock to new players. Essentially, not every future Eve Bro will be able to afford the pay to play SP structure. And yes, I know you increased some of those skills recently, but you did not go far enough.
To break this down, at least half the engineering skills, the basic tanking skills, and some of the navigation skills, and target management are a many months long roadblock to new characters being able to focus their training into flying their ships and equipment in a useful manner. Basically any skill that allows for fitting, as well as, any skill required to fit a t2 tank, and have the most possible HP. This hurdle is long and torturous to new bro's, and other than being a required train, they are absolutely pointlessly mandatory. I would seriously compare them to the learning skills of old, because they are similar in a lot of ways by being mandatory and then forgotten.
This really is pay to play in those first crucial months of new bro development if you don't do away with these skills completely. I want you to make money, and I will not complain if you keep the SP sales in order to do so as long as you address one of the real issues here in a meaningful way. Even the bro's who cannot drop a couple hundred bucks at the beginning to skill up, should not have to fly **** fit ships or tackle for months on end waiting for these necessary skills to train so that they can fly the same doctrines and fits as everyone else in their corp.
Yes. I really do feel that these skills are an enormous roadblock to new players that have them sitting in station or unable to participate in fleets in the way they prefer, and flying bastardized fits, for many months on end at the beginning of their Eve careers. Fitting skills are cancer to new PvPers.
I would even suggest an annual increase to the initial SP allotment of newly created characters to further assist them in catching up to the thousands of old players that have years head start on them in this game.
That is all. I still love you guys. |
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
299
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:39:14 -
[1304] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed.
The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it.
The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet. This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself. Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players.
Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve?
What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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NeoShocker
Oppose Militancy and Neutralize Invasion. Exodus.
216
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:39:40 -
[1305] - Quote
I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.
However, since CSM is my representative to my game and if, short by miracle, 50% of the CSM likes the idea, then I would probably be open to such ideas, but it appears its not a very popular feature you are proposing CCP and I also very disagree with it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:43:23 -
[1306] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Sasha Sen wrote:If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed. The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it. The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet. This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself. Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players. Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve? What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.
It would likely stay unless CCP removes it. Things like standings would make it viable. That and buying a well trained character will almost always be cheaper, provided the SP are not "wasted.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:43:29 -
[1307] - Quote
If only we could get all our newbies to post...
Maybe if we incentivized them with SP packets...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:44:41 -
[1308] - Quote
NeoShocker wrote:I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.
Well...will not the people who buy SP packets make the same choices?
Seriously people talk about choice as if this kind of thing will remove choice when allocating SP. Talk about being rather dumb.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
55
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:46:02 -
[1309] - Quote
Identity is one penalty. I am just ilustrating that it is not a "sole thing", it is pattern.
I make use of CB regularely, and the reason I do is the reason I dont like it. It allows people to benefit from something I offer, in a detrimental way, to what I could call literally "Character Building".
I am not saying CB is anything better than SP token sale. What I am saying, again, it is a step towards other things caused or demanded by it.
People dont quit for things they consider part of the package. If you know there is a skill timer, and it is a feature of the game, then you wont rage on it. You rage on it only if you somehow joined under the impression it is avoidable given some circumstance.
As soon as skill become easy, it will be irrelevant, and then will be absent. That is the natural consequence, as again, when you remove the need for skill training, after you have enough people who never had it, you wont start having it again. It is what we call here in the south "Acquired Right Mentality".
Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE.
I am not saying this idea by itself is a problem. The problem is once you accept this, it is all downhill from there. You will create "Skill Farms", "Skill Vampires", and the X benefit you give to new players will be 10X benefit to veterans. The overall universe will adjust itself, and Skill which was given to benefit chars to achieve a point will render that point irrelevant, so they will face another obstacle, and the only way it stops is to remove all obstacles.
Again, it is like credit card of Skill points. Once you first used the credit, you have no credit anymore, you just have taxes and delayed payment of purchases. If you use it as credit, at some point you will have no money, no credit and an huge debit.
In a EVE of high tech full functional optmal skill market, skill is a matter of buying, becomes irrelevant, removable altogether, and with it, everything that was put there for it, by it or from it. Might aswell call New Eden New Tyria or New Azeroth.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Akako Higanjima
Total Insecurity
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:47:06 -
[1310] - Quote
The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can. The character bazaar, while similar, has its own drawbacks - namely in the form of shady character history or a bad name. This though - there's very few drawbacks to simply buying SP to bypass training time. Hell, you'll even save money on subscription fees, assuming you're not already PLEXing.
Yes, player skill is also very definitely involved, and SP count doesn't make the pilot. But if you've got the ability to simply grab more SP when needed (or more accurately, to have a wealthy corp or alliance grab SP for you), it allows for players/corps/alliances/whatever to very quickly promote newer pilots into ships that can be incredibly destructive, but are effectively point-and-shoot. Just inject the free SP, allocate it to whatever you damn well please, fleet up, and F1 away.
All in all, the idea has some merit and shouldn't be dismissed outright, but it needs a serious rework from what we were presented with here. The benefits do not outweigh the costs, by any means.
Perhaps selling a skill itself - or having the SP not be unallocated - might be an interesting compromise. For example, let's say I train up... I dunno, Jump Drive Calibration. Everyone hates that skill. Now, I extract 500k SP from Jump Drive Calibration and sell it. If that SP that I've extracted from my own JDC skill could only be used for the buyer's JDC skill, then that leaves a lot less room for exploitation than just "Here's free SP, go put it in whatever the hell you want" - you have to find a seller who's selling the specific skill you want, and even then, chances are good that you'll need to find several sellers for longer, more complicated skills. It would sort of work in a similar vein to the current character bazaar - you have to shop around for the skills you need, rather than just having a win button that can be injected anywhere. |
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Landrik Blake
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
8
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:20 -
[1311] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to respec my character, or liquidating my unused alts to sell for ISK or inject into my main. However, when I consider the full implications of open skillpoint trading, I die a little inside.
There are players out there with hundreds of billions, even trillions of ISK to burn on this, and even when you account for the fact that all the skillpoints have to come from other characters, there will always be a market for it. This means that the rich can accelerate their training at a faster rate than the poor, and that is Pay-to-Win. This is the sort of thing that will cause riots in Jita.
If you want an in-client mechanism to trade characters, then make characters a tradeable item on the market. If you want the option to customize the new character, then have a mechanism to rename the character after purchase (this would be used as a general mechanic to shed bad reputations, but it's not unrealistic to have people change their identity for a cost). I think there's already an item you can get from the NEX Store to re-do a character's appearance.
If we must have skillpoint trading, then it should maintain the relationship to the skill. For example, extract 10,000 skillpoints from your Mining Frigate skill and sell them as Mining Frigate skillpoints, only usable on the Mining Frigate skill. That way, someone buying skillpoints for Capital Ships means someone else is losing skillpoints in Capital Ships. But even that is probably going too far. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:27 -
[1312] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE. There is little merit in entertaining slippery slope hypotheticals, especially those not in CCP's interest. The creation of SP from nowhere or the elimination of the character advancement are so out of their interest by my reasoning that there seems to be no reason to entertain it.
Aside from of course CCP wanting to end Eve, but at that point the discussion is still pretty pointless.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:38 -
[1313] - Quote
Quote:There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.
Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game.
You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is just another item on the market.
I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:52:28 -
[1314] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can.
I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:55:15 -
[1315] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Quote:There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game. You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is just another item on the market. I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server.
Okay, you failed at reading comprehension. The only way to fill a Transnueral Skill Packet is to drain skills from an existing character.
As such the amount of "SP" on the market will be limited. By definition. Anybody doing any "reasoning" (and I use that term very lightly as very few are using reason ITT) who is assuming this is a blithering idiot.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:12 -
[1316] - Quote
Laodell wrote:That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?
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deadsilent
POS Party
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:38 -
[1317] - Quote
No this is a horrible idea. keep it so the skill points stay on the character that trained them. These skills useful or not are what make the character who are we. you want to just chop characters in to bits a pieces to sell on the market is horrible idea. ((CCP Rise & Team Size Matters)) I bet you keep Minmatar slaves around just so you have a stock pile of BIO-MASS ready at a moments notice. MEH Amarrian SCUM
Love DeadSilent |
Epic Name
The Scope Gallente Federation
140
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:50 -
[1318] - Quote
Finally! I wholeheartedly support this awesome change. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2781
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:57:41 -
[1319] - Quote
I like to post from time to time so i can't really tell you all what i think about your reaction here, but feel free to swing by reddit where we can talk openly about how incredibly wrong you are.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Akako Higanjima
Total Insecurity
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 04:00:29 -
[1320] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.
Of course it won't be; that's a given. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that of the "x" number of SP Packets that become available, the bulk of them will go to corps/alliances that do have an overabundance of disposable ISK - leaving players in smaller, start-up corps, where funding is much tighter, at a distinct disadvantage. |
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