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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Gassner
Katholische Pfruendepachtstelle
3
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Posted - 2015.10.17 10:15:26 -
[2431] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Gassner wrote:They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. Why do you think a system that creates SP out of thin air would be better than the proposed one, that gives SP to player A only if there is a player B willing to give his SP for ISK and, potentially, game time?
Well, read again. I'm in no way proposing that. There would be just so much SP on the market, it would not matter if they came from alts or thin air. The game is over 12yrs old, there are way too many alts, boom. |
Dave stark
7575
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:17:28 -
[2432] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too. that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account. if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp. So what is the whole exercise for then ???? Is it for the benefit of new character creation or to add yet another game straining microtransaction that has nothing todo with the bazaar in itself but to afford old characters the potential to max their toons by using RMT
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:18:11 -
[2433] - Quote
Gassner wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Note that people that cash in their alt's SPs would get to play for free...
Why is this bad? When you roam looking for a decent-value (T2 cruisers and above) fleet to shoot at, would you prefer more targets or less? Do you even ever think about how 'EVE-old' are the guys you're fighting?
Because giving me more shiny stuff to shoot at also diminishes the value of a single quality kill i managed to hunt down on myself. Especially if there are high chances my adversary was able to acquire his assets and skills with way less effort ($) than me or another pilot (time). Fair enough, though I think, generally speaking, most people would prefer more populated space.
Note that the ISK-value, and the corresponding time it took someone to mine minerals, PI stuff, moon goo and build that shiny ship stays the same though.
Also I'm proud when I kill a capable pilot, not a high-SP pilot (I never check).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Aesther Hert
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:20:06 -
[2434] - Quote
I like this idea. Gives more freedom hence more fun to the game and remove some of the too rigid rules. It'll also remove this "vet" "noob" segregation and give the game a real sandbox feel. And not "skill queue online".
But I also understand that it upsets some vets. |
Dave stark
7575
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:20:47 -
[2435] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Also I'm proud when I kill a capable pilot, not a high-SP pilot (I never check).
probably because past a certain level of SP, it's completely irrelevant (which is why i honestly don't see how a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be bad) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:21:35 -
[2436] - Quote
Gassner wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Gassner wrote:They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. Why do you think a system that creates SP out of thin air would be better than the proposed one, that gives SP to player A only if there is a player B willing to give his SP for ISK and, potentially, game time? Well, read again. I'm in no way proposing that. There would be just so much SP on the market, it would not matter if they came from alts or thin air. The game is over 12yrs old, there are way too many alts, boom. I see what you mean, but you're making the same mistake 99% of the posters are making: looking at it only from the buyer's perspective.
What about all the ISK flow from buyers to sellers? Sellers being, as you say and I agree, a very large chunk of the EVE population.
It's funny, people seem so attached to SP accumulation they're overlooking the opportunites to sell unnecessary SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Integra Arkanheld
Andorra Paradis Fiscal
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:22:49 -
[2437] - Quote
I have not been playing at EVE for many months now, but I keep the character and continue the training so when I come back to the game (and I will come back), I have more skills and I have not lost time. I can use some PLEX to make some cash and continue the game as if I had been playing. If you implement this new ability to buy skill points, instead of paying to maintain the account, I will simply cancel the account. If I come back to the game, I only need to sell a few millions SP (now I have 197M), and only keep the useful skills. Why will people continue to train skills if they have "finished" the character? The only use for more skills will be to sell them for more isk instead of trying to have everything. It will be better to have several 50M (or even 80M) specialized characters than one 200+ M character. If you implement this, most old characters will be dismantled into smaller characters, and old players will sell all the new SPs they will be doing. Right now, a new player is limited, but after several months, he can become a useful character. Old players are not so much more powerful as the only thing they gain is more and more useless skills. Yet they continue at the game because they love their main character, and like to see it growth. With this new system, players will plan specialized characters of 50M SPs, and make them. Once they are finished, they will sell the extra SPs to pay for PLEXs and play for free. Many players will also stop playing the game as they may feel that the have finished it once they have made all the different styles of characters. One of the problems with this system is that all characters will be identical. Everyone will want to use the same 50M SP plan for the same role, so for example all miners will be the same characters with the same skills, and so on with traders, industrials, haulers, small ships pilots, big ships pilots and capital pilots.
What might be useful to do is: -be able to change the character name -be able to change the character physical appearance, -be able to redistribute some skill points (losing for example 25% of them in the process) to others skills. You do this removing a trained skill that you no longer want and recovering the 75% of its value in unallocated SPs to reuse yourself (Never for selling) -be able to remove the implants -be able to remap the skills -have this be available like the neural remap once per year for free, or paying with aurum once per 3 months for example.
Be careful with what you do as it might have a very big impact in the game. |
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:23:08 -
[2438] - Quote
Some people seem to be afraid that this feature would allow rich players to get alts with like 400m sp, which is more than what you could buy on the character bazaar. IGÇÖd like to explain why thatGÇÖs not a problem.
What people donGÇÖt seem to realise is that there is only a limited amount of combat skills. You need approximately 150m sp to get at least level 4 skills for every available combat ship and module. Once you have that many sp you can continue to train barely useful level 5 combat skills until you have approximately 290m sp. At that point you will have nothing left to train but completely useless skills.
We have long passed the time where characters with 150m combat sp began to be available on the character bazaar and in 1 or 2 years even characters with 290m combat sp will become more common on the character bazaar.
If you want to have a high sp combat character now you can get it on the character bazaar. If you want to have a high sp combat character after this feature is released you would still get it from the character bazaar because it will be much cheaper than using skill packets. The diminishing returns are not only a great sp sink but they also protect the value of high sp characters.
In the end it will cost a shitload of ISK to push your character to 400m sp and the only advantage you get is the possibility to use your combat pilot also for mining. Who cares?
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:25:13 -
[2439] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there. I misunderstood your original post. Thanks for the clarification. From what you said: Quote:since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way You're saying SP is a commodity that will always retain its value (in fact its value will always closely follow the value of the most valuable commodity in the game now, which is PLEX). This commodity will be able to be earned by anyone:
- With a character with at least 5M SP
- 100% passively
- Without any interference from market forces that are faced by by all other passive income in the game, like PI or Industry
But something is off about your math. Specifically:
- You can only sell 4 skill packets "per month" (since the SP alt will only gain 2M SP/month at max)
- To sell 4 skill packets, you have to purchase 4 extractors with AUR or ISK
- In order to PLEX your account you will have to earn as much ISK as 1 PLEX + 4 Extractors
I don't see it happening. It does not really matter what is needed to create the packs, since it is the same stuff everyone will have to use to create such a pack.
The only thing I can see that maybe is off whit my idea is that the amount of people doing this is so high that the market get saturated. In this case you would have to sell packs at a lower price and it would not pay the full subscription.
Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ.
You could make an argument that this is already possible with the character bazzar and in a way it is. But it takes a lot of planing and effort to get those toons sold and this is why only a couple of people do it. This will completely change with the SP pack system.
Something else:
You did not address my concern that this will look to a new player like a classical F2P paywall. Do you think this is not an issue and why do you think it isn't one?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:27:11 -
[2440] - Quote
159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. |
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Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:28:29 -
[2441] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ.
unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. |
Devils Fighter
Paradox Collective Project.Mayhem.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:28:37 -
[2442] - Quote
I can't understand why people are complaining about P2W. Buying PLEX to buy characters is something new players already do! This just makes it more granular and actually they will probably spend less on buying PLEX as they don't have to buy the whole character with lots of excess skills or pay a premium to buy a very focussed character.
I am concerned that newer players might be shoe-horned in to joining the bigger alliances if they are offering free skill packets as a recruitment incentive. Not a bad thing in itself but a bit of diversity and incentive to join smaller corps and alliances only adds to the game.
CCP might need to rethink T3 skill losses as they'll not really be a penality under this system - perhaps a delay of a day before you are able to apply unallocated SP to the skill that was lost? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:29:57 -
[2443] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. I believe it will cost less. If people sell SP from their alts, they don't necessarily need to get the 'farming' SP/PLEX rate, because they'd pay the PLEX (or sub) anyway to actually play with their alts.
Not saying 'SP you don't need is free' (like 'minerals you mine are free' LOL), but it's certainly worth less than a full PLEX per month.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:32:17 -
[2444] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
Are you looking to deploy this in on 3 November 2015, or mid December, or is this a longer term thing?
I'm getting really close to 50mil SP, and if that's going to be the first major soft cap, i'd REALLY like this feature before i hit that mark. :) |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:36:17 -
[2445] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs.
There are two possibilities here:
- If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort.
- If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back
(Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:38:49 -
[2446] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
oh right when you said "massive income" i thought you were using it to make pure profit rather than offsetting the cost of the subscription. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:42:34 -
[2447] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) oh right when you said "massive income" i thought you were using it to make pure profit rather than offsetting the cost of the subscription. The "massive income" was in the context of the pack consumer IIRC, since PLEX prices will skyrocket and a new player will not be able to get a pack or a PLEX for ISK.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:44:20 -
[2448] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. I believe it will cost less. If people sell SP from their alts, they don't necessarily need to get the 'farming' SP/PLEX rate, because they'd pay the PLEX (or sub) anyway to actually play with their alts. Not saying 'SP you don't need is free' (like 'minerals you mine are free' LOL), but it's certainly worth less than a full PLEX per month. Market will show. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
177
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:00:11 -
[2449] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:A single CSM a majority does not make. i'm aware but even one supporting it means that the csm are not "universally against it" as you said. Which means that CCP is longer functioning in unison and is becoming divided. Which is not good for other reasons. Hopefully the majority with eve best interest in mind would prevail and axe this cancerous idea before it manifest itself into the actually game. If it does then Eve would slowly but surely die. Is there a time table when this is suppose to hit or is this still up for debate?
CSM is not part of CCP, it is a separate entity said to represent the players. Which anyone following their public presence may dubt they actually represent all kinds of players.
CCP themselves, for better or worse, usually take action in a certain way despite player whine or apocaliptic thinking. At least that gives hope that this idea if implemented, wont actually be so harmful as it could in the hands of a company like blizzard or Arena.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
153
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:02:39 -
[2450] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much?
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:03:00 -
[2451] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don. let's start at the beginning. What fundamentals are being changed? buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause? Dave I'm rather amazed at your posting on this regard. You are quite a level headed chap and clued on in many respects. But I feel you're dismissing facts and inventing your own to fit your stance, in this instance. We do not buy SP, we buy characters with all the baggage associated with them. This is why many of us are OK with the bazaar. It does not bypass the training system, as those characters had to be trained over time with the normal mechanics. The speed at which they gain that SP has a ceiling. The fundamental difference is now we will be able to buy raw SP and inject directly. How you cannot see the difference, is rather puzzling to me. Buying raw SP is bypassing the training system for characters being injected. If I train for the first year 2 characters, then move the SP from one to the other, that's almost doubling the speed of one character. Not possible right now, so a fundamental change. As far as 400m characters is concerned. I personally don't think this game will benefit in the long run, from the 'I want it now' crowd. If you don't see an issue with that, OK fine. But I do. For instance, FOTM is a thing and will not improve with this change. I'm not going to argue the point with you, I've had enough of the topic. I dislike the idea and the blog just seems off to me somehow. I'm not sure why and maybe it was my initial thoughts when I first read it, that still lingers. It is an emotional topic for sure. You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. So far, not one person has answered that. As the onus is upon the ones wanting change, I will wait to see if anyone can justify it. I'm personally don't enjoy seeing a change like this, seemingly on a whim. Dev: Oh let's do up the bazaar. other Dev: Tell you what, let's sell SP. It's such a mad escalation and tangent from the first thought. It just doesn't sit well with many of us. Anyway that's me done. I still like ya Dave, I just don't agree with your stance.
I give you my personal reason why it must be implemented. I need a better way than bazaar to exchange my isks for SP. Now I waiting while skill traning happens to change my in-game activity. I rather play more to earn isks for Packet than wait but bazaar not an option for me. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:08:29 -
[2452] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too. that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account. if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp. So what is the whole exercise for then ???? Is it for the benefit of new character creation or to add yet another game straining microtransaction that has nothing todo with the bazaar in itself but to afford old characters the potential to max their toons by using RMT according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
When your were seeking an answer i gave it you now you quote a line, i meant your take on it. I always took it in eve that certain area's were sacrosanct and now it seems not.
How will this effect a new player in anyway shape or form, except for him to spend real money to advance instantly. I agree with you that having a 400m sp toon has no bearing on anyones ability to pilot a ship no different than someone with 150m sp but to what end its not been earned, The size of the wallet should not dictate the class of the pilot.
In what way is this helping to boost the flagging sub base, its just taking money away from an already jaded one. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1799
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:10:20 -
[2453] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX. There is after all, only one source of new SP and that is paying for a month's worth of game time. This is massive buff to multi-boxers who multiplex characters that do not require continued training. Ganking alts, mining alts, PI alts, industry/research alts, etc. will all be essentially free-to-play, or certainly only cost a fraction of a PLEX to keep running for a month.
This is perhaps the most worrisome aspect of this change. This will have profound effects on the economy and a massive proliferation in extra accounts.
On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:20:02 -
[2454] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players. Did you consider the fact that every single subscribed account will be able to get ISK for any and all not needed SP? And that SP accumulates constantly? That means that potentially 100% of EVE players can grind less for ISK (and/or PLEX), provided obviously that on the other side there are ISK- (and/or cash-) rich players willing to buy SP.
I can see it happen in minor amounts among regular players ie non farms which are going to be used for this.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7576
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:20:19 -
[2455] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much?
well the "cost" to produce one package containing 500,000sp will be 300m of game time at current plex prices - plus whatever the extractor costs which is currently unknown.
so for 2m SP you need 4 of those - and that's assuming you're not injecting it in a character that's going to suffer from diminishing returns. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1749
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:23:41 -
[2456] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much? This is uncertain, because this will have a heavy impact on the PLEX price and we don't know what the extractors cost and what the demand for packs will be.
I just pointed out some consequences for both the scenarios, where the pack is cheaper than what it takes to produce or where it is more expensive.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1321
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:24:04 -
[2457] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX..
I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP.
Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Dave Stark
7576
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:26:41 -
[2458] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:When your were seeking an answer i gave it you now you quote a line, i meant your take on it. I always took it in eve that certain area's were sacrosanct and now it seems not.
How will this effect a new player in anyway shape or form, except for him to spend real money to advance instantly. I agree with you that having a 400m sp toon has no bearing on anyones ability to pilot a ship no different than someone with 150m sp but to what end its not been earned, The size of the wallet should not dictate the class of the pilot.
In what way is this helping to boost the flagging sub base, its just taking money away from an already jaded one.
what do i think it achieves? it makes skipping the boring and pointless training of core skills significantly easier. lets face it - everyone is going to train cpu/pg skills, basic nav skills etc. they are essentially mandatory. - it's just an irrelevant time sink to train them. you can skip it by buying a cheap character with them trained already this system just makes doing that significantly less hassle.
that's the same way it affects everyone; open your wallet (in game or out of game) and advance instantly. the size of the wallet has always dictated the class of the pilot - the bazaar has ensured that.
it helps boost the flagging sub base in the same way every single other QoL change does. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1680
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:38:20 -
[2459] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX. There is after all, only one source of new SP and that is paying for a month's worth of game time. This is massive buff to multi-boxers who multiplex characters that do not require continued training. Ganking alts, mining alts, PI alts, industry/research alts, etc. will all be essentially free-to-play, or certainly only cost a fraction of a PLEX to keep running for a month. This is perhaps the most worrisome aspect of this change. This will have profound effects on the economy and a massive proliferation in extra accounts. On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
it makes me wonder if this is the reason hyperdunking got nerfed, they nerf hyperdunking then release a way to easily make low sp alts
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1802
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:40:15 -
[2460] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP. Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
It's not flawed at all. SP can only come from game time. Therefore, these packets will cost the equivalent in PLEX + the cost of the extractor + some small profit. If the cost of the packets is capped at the cost of PLEX as if it rises much above the cost a PLEX, people will just extract a month's worth of game time from a character and buy a PLEX to activate dual-training to replace it for a quick, guaranteed profit.
So a months worth of SP will never cost much more than PLEX + extractor cost. If they ever do for some reason, then you will actually get paid to run a ganking (or mining/PI/whatever) alt. That situation won't last for long before players sell off some SP from an alt and buy a cheaper PLEX to replace that SP for a quick profit.
Unless the extractors cost so much that people decide the packets aren't worth it, they will be in high demand as you say because they are instantaneous progression. Therefore, this upward price pressure will keep them near the price of a PLEX. The only downward pressure will come from the alt farmers who will sell SP at a small loss because there are making easy PI/industry/ganking profit to offset their costs.
Therefore, SP packets prices will track the price of PLEX almost perfectly, but they will also push the demand for PLEX way up to satisfy the new demand for "free" alt accounts. There are a lot of unknowns as to how this shakes out, but definitely there will be massive changes to the economy if this mechanic is put in the game. |
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