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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
706
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:56:42 -
[1] - Quote
It's burner missions that are really driving the ISK/hr for level 4s through the roof and breaking the LP market. They require a significant startup investment in properly fit ships to run them all consistently, but once you're set up and have mastered them it looks like one of the biggest ISK farms in the game...though somewhat self correctly as burner farming steadily crashes the market for LP items (SoE launchers have dropped around 5M/ISK per unit in the past 6 months).
So lets be clear...anyone making the argument that level 4 rewards are too high is talking about burners. You will be hard pressed to top 100M an hour running standard level 4's with one character. Trying to balance ISK generation to deter people who can invest a few billion ISK in ships to get rolling and have multiple characters devoted to the endeavor is just silly.
I personally never got into burners because the barrier to running them consistently is quite high. You either need to multibox (I don't) or invest a few billion ISK in a stable of shiny ships to deal with all of the burners, and you will probably lose a couple when you start out.
People make these "ISK/hr in highsec is too high" arguments and neglect to mention all the other factors in play. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
706
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:59:40 -
[2] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Ploing wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:
Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.
I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either. kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps perhaps this is a pattern that is one of the things that annoys me about CONCORD lp being convertible to empire corps. there would be a lot of interesting corps to run missions for. If lp rates go over 1800 or so the most profitable thing to do with concord LP is to convert to that. moving to that system where I have to go 5 jumps and average 10mins/mission I have to get ~2800 isk/lp to get similar lp value to someone who is running ~6min average and converting at 1700 isk/lp. not even counting the extra reward/bounty from doing 4 more burners/hour it just doesn't make sense to run missions outside a very small number of locations.
The tags requirement on many LP items needs to be looked out. The vast majority of items in empire LP stores are unprofitable because of tags. I frankly don't know how some of the faction modules end up on the market for the prices they do because even if you're willing to play .01 games the conversion rate is like 800-1000 ISK/LP at best.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
706
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:12:34 -
[3] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So lets be clear...anyone making the argument that level 4 rewards are too high is talking about burners. You will be hard pressed to top 100M an hour running standard level 4's with one character. Trying to balance ISK generation to deter people who can invest a few billion ISK in ships to get rolling and have multiple characters devoted to the endeavor is just silly.
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To be honest you do not need to spend anything like that to cover most of the single and team burners if you are happy to take 6 minutes instead of three. The real barrier for the average mission runners is initially skills. Most peoples mission alts do not have the racial frigates or cruisers to V or assault frigates to V or thermodynamics V or any significant points invested in EWAR skills. These are all relatively cheap to train but a lvl IV mission alt has generally trained none of them.
All of the fits posted in the burners thread are quite costly, and hell I pvp on this account and I don't have thermodynamics to 5.
I'm hesitant to go to the trouble especially as I suspect burner farming is going to nuke the SoE LP market into the ground. I would expect SoE probe launchers to drop below 30M in the next 6 months.
Even running T2 fits...a stable of faction frigates and AF's + couple losses will cost as much as a new faction BS.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
716
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Posted - 2015.10.26 13:32:20 -
[4] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: So my point, and the point of others still stand. Mission income is dependent on a market value which fluctuates and has recently been trending downwards. It is also not unlimited and if everyone was doing what is being proposed, the value of our efforts would be hardly worth it.
Emphasis mine. I figured as much. The reason for the desperation at least now is confirmed. Man you are going to hate what I'm putting together Market McSelling Alt wrote: I guess it is best said that the numbers being presented are more of a potential than a hard rate. It is entirely possible that the ratios could go way up one day too, and all that LP some of us have stored in now worthless corps will be worth something too. But that has more to do with Market-Fu than missions.
I can, and have been, dumping millions of LP at effectively over the rate that I use in my examples for almost three months now. The SOE market is far more robust than you think. Yes, it boggles the mind, but enjoy it and stop trying to spread misinformation just to keep your little isk fountain safe. It should be shared with everyone.
I have not seen 36M buy orders in ages for launchers and never seen Stratios buys for above 280. The numbers you are throwing out are unrealistic unless one is playing serious market games with dedicated trade alts in multiple hubs, and doing things like sitting on the LP for long periods of time until an exploitable market fluctuation comes along. So yes you can get 2k ISK/LP but it requires a good deal of luck and patience, trade alts in all the major hubs and the ability to quickly move stock between them. I'm sure there are opportunities for even greater ROI moving stock to lowsec and nullsec markets but Johnny mission runner isn't getting 2k selling to buy orders on a daily basis. I sold a stack of launchers in Dodixie few weeks back for 31M apiece after fees and taxes.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
716
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Posted - 2015.10.27 12:36:22 -
[5] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Why do you feel it needs to be nerfed? Keep in mind that burners don't inject much isk into the economy, compared to nullsec ratting for example. I think you misread my comment... I meant with how successful players are at running them, when is the inevitable nerf bat going to hammer them? Hmm I don't think I'm misreading it at all really. Why does the fact that some players are able to successfully complete content(most of the time) mean there will be an inevitable nerf? Effectively to me what you are suggesting is that the content is not working as intended, that being able to complete the content is not something CCP wanted to happen. I believe some of the burners that CCP felt has been too easy have in fact been beefed up(The daredevil is now a really though cookie) so nothing at this date indicates a nerf. It actually looks like most people don't even *believe* that it's possible to do what some of us are doing, never mind actually running burners at all. A number are also running them extremely inefficiently, using multiple characters to run them and using anything from Marauders to some of the slowest battleships in the game to complete unnecessary normal lv4 missions. From observing the ships undocking in popular trade hubs a very *very* small portion of the mission running population is running at even remotely a good efficiency. We've had people that have been running missions for more years than my character has existed that are getting barely over 100mill/h on a good day for pete's sake . Basically, just because a tiny number of mission runners are able to get a high isk/h, does this mean the content should be nerfed for the vast majority too lazy or otherwise lacking in mental faculties to achieve a similarly high isk/h?
Ironically that is the argument that the "nerf highsec" crowd makes - that risk/reward should be balanced based on the rewards available to the most invested, active and efficient PvE'ers. Of course doing so leaves everyone else out in the cold.
I personally don't run burners because I PvP too much and lose too much ISK there to easily fund the initial startup investment, including the inevitable losses on the learning curve. I've got into incursions instead, which to me don't seem near as broken as everyone claims because once again the high ISK/hr figures tossed out require extreme efficiency in fitting, at the individual level and throughout the entire fleet. Not to mention they're so boring I can scarcely stand to run more than 8-10 sites in one sitting.
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