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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
4170
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Posted - 2015.11.02 11:35:01 -
[31] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Rowells wrote:Killboard a only report if you or the aggressor are linked to it, report it manually, and/or are delayed. They also don't show anything if you don't do anything. Could I use a killboard to track down your freighter and kill him within a couple sittings? Or wouldn't it be more effective to run a locator, add to watchlist, and then do something else while I wait? actually, iirc, the new CREST system is automatic. No need to input API keys for killboards (I could be wrong, but i'm fairly sure....) You would be wrong. ;) Unless the killmail is part of a war, then it can be retrieved without an API key automatically. I'm pretty sure that's what I said, without the 'part of a war' bit.....
****! I typoed. It was way to early in the day. I meant CANNOT. As in API keys are still required.
@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Size Matters
Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2343
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Posted - 2015.11.02 11:36:14 -
[32] - Quote
They're literally only a problem because space coffins are a thing. That is going away, thus by extension, so are the "problems" with a WL.
I mean, what's the counterplay to logging off without it? |
Iain Cariaba
1925
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Posted - 2015.11.02 11:40:49 -
[33] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Madd Adda wrote:And instant online/offline grants you more intel, how? Without other sources, online/offline status is largely meaningless (even to me). Even with gankers added, they can enter my system at anytime. The watchlist merely makes me paranoid enough not to leave my computer without docking. You cannot tell where the target are and what they are doing/flying, you need to run a locator for that. Even then, they could be in transit to somewhere else. I don't see your logic when you're using a third party site to gain intel, as opposed to merely knowing if someone is online. Clearly, you've never been involved with large scale, multiple fleet, capital and supercapital brawls. Simply knowing that your opponent is logging in supercaps is a HUGE piece of intel for a bloc level FC. I really can't stress enough just how powerful that piece of intel is. I was involved in a carrier/dread operation in Lowsec a while back. We successfully baited our opposition into dropping some expensive stuff on us, which we then countered with our own (well, not MY own, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate) After a solid 10'ish minutes of gud'fighting when we started to hold the upper hand, our FC starts yelling at us all to RUN and GTFO. His watchlist had just gone beserk with our enemies supercaps logging on. Sure enough, less than a minute later, we had three Nyxs, three Aeons and two Erebus drop onfield (and my watchlist grew by eight). Now, we had no spai in that alliance, yet we knew INSTANTLY when their biggest, most expensive and shiny toys came out to play. That's Over-Powered. Let me see if I got this right. WL warned you when you were about to get your ass stomped, and this is a bad thing?
You seriously want people to be able to log their super fleets on and drop them on you with no warning what-so-ever?
Really?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2343
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Posted - 2015.11.02 11:46:10 -
[34] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Madd Adda wrote:And instant online/offline grants you more intel, how? Without other sources, online/offline status is largely meaningless (even to me). Even with gankers added, they can enter my system at anytime. The watchlist merely makes me paranoid enough not to leave my computer without docking. You cannot tell where the target are and what they are doing/flying, you need to run a locator for that. Even then, they could be in transit to somewhere else. I don't see your logic when you're using a third party site to gain intel, as opposed to merely knowing if someone is online. Clearly, you've never been involved with large scale, multiple fleet, capital and supercapital brawls. Simply knowing that your opponent is logging in supercaps is a HUGE piece of intel for a bloc level FC. I really can't stress enough just how powerful that piece of intel is. I was involved in a carrier/dread operation in Lowsec a while back. We successfully baited our opposition into dropping some expensive stuff on us, which we then countered with our own (well, not MY own, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate) After a solid 10'ish minutes of gud'fighting when we started to hold the upper hand, our FC starts yelling at us all to RUN and GTFO. His watchlist had just gone beserk with our enemies supercaps logging on. Sure enough, less than a minute later, we had three Nyxs, three Aeons and two Erebus drop onfield (and my watchlist grew by eight). Now, we had no spai in that alliance, yet we knew INSTANTLY when their biggest, most expensive and shiny toys came out to play. That's Over-Powered. Let me see if I got this right. WL warned you when you were about to get your ass stomped, and this is a bad thing? You seriously want people to be able to log their super fleets on and drop them on you with no warning what-so-ever? Really?
Yes, apparently it's unfair that they have this intel, but somehow completely balanced that these ships can simply not exist right up until jumping off point whereby they have zero opportunity to be scouted, to have eyes upon even if you're in the system.
Even the NSA can't find these until they cyno on field.
WL gives you perhaps 30-90 seconds of warning before the hitherto invisible hammer becomes visible then falls.
Make the hammer stop being invisible, and we can talk. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
898
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Posted - 2015.11.02 12:09:15 -
[35] - Quote
Aww no cyber-stalking for me?? But I wanna.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1532
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Posted - 2015.11.02 13:29:15 -
[36] - Quote
Can there just be a single 'Common recurring super pilot whiney stuff' thread that can be stickied and collect all this stuff?
Removing supers from the game would remove a lot of negativity, whines, hurt feelings, angst and just boring game play.
Just saying.
TL/DR Sell your super if you don't like the gameplay that is involved with it. This is not rocket science. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out
4480
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:06:58 -
[37] - Quote
when CTQ were a highsec wardec corp we sometimes used the watchlist to watch almost an entire alliance using EVE-Who and the character hyperlinks in evemails
i know next to nothing about supers or super hunting gameplay
i don't see removing the watchlist as being detrimental, provided actual friends can still see if each other are online. using a 'friend' tool as an intel tool is pretty weird |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
281
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:08:24 -
[38] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:using a 'friend' tool as an intel tool is pretty weird
that's pretty much how I see it.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2373
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:19:56 -
[39] - Quote
I think the real question is do you think they would be used more or less if both side didn't know what is logged/logging in to drop a hammer. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2345
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:24:09 -
[40] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:I think the real question is do you think they would be used more or less if both side didn't know what is logged/logging in to drop a hammer.
You and I both know the answer is less. The exception to that rule would be people with sufficient supers to literally blot out the sun, but that's not a significant change from today. |
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
235
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:24:34 -
[41] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:when CTQ were a highsec wardec corp we sometimes used the watchlist to watch almost an entire alliance using EVE-Who and the character hyperlinks in evemails
i know next to nothing about supers or super hunting gameplay
i don't see removing the watchlist as being detrimental, provided actual friends can still see if each other are online. using a 'friend' tool as an intel tool is pretty weird
who said it was a 'friend' tool. Its an intel tool just like local and locator agents.
I WL everyone in an alliance that dec's me, how do I know every single person in that alliance? oh that's right there's a out of game tool that has all that info on it. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2345
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:43:28 -
[42] - Quote
Yeah, it's called a WATCH list, not a FRIEND list, or a BUDDY list.
It's fairly obvious the intent behind it. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out
4480
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Posted - 2015.11.02 15:29:38 -
[43] - Quote
it's levi-O-sa not levio-SAH |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1535
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Posted - 2015.11.02 15:54:48 -
[44] - Quote
I'd only be willing to part with the watch list if local is removed at the same time. Free intel being free intel, let's bundle this and get it all done at once.
And there it is in a nutshell. Big null blocks w/ a herd of supers they want to play with say free intel is bad when it divulges the status of their super pilots, BUT if it aids their bearish inland activities and lines their wallets then it's just fine.
This is hypocracy at its best.
TL/DR If you can afford a super then you can afford to protect it and *gasp* to lose it. Just like everything else in eve - board at your own risk (muttering just loud enough for folks to hear) *pampered*bit*h*s* |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1056
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Posted - 2015.11.02 17:03:35 -
[45] - Quote
Agreed. You shouldn't be able to watch list people without their permission.
Not today spaghetti.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1537
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Posted - 2015.11.02 18:26:38 -
[46] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Agreed. You shouldn't be able to watch list people without their permission.
Double agree, you shouldn't be able to shoot people without their permission either - especially if you're flying a super. (sarcasm)
CCP could launch a whole new advertising campaign based on watchlist permission:
EVE online a friendly space game where everything is as it should be - consensual. Come play our family game where mutual permission and respect are the key building vast empires of BFFs. Explore our vast sandbox, see the raibow nebuli, the Flower Planets and the golden asteroid belts. EVE online where holding the door for you friends is coded right into the game.
This thread is at best a troll, median a self centered whine and at it worst - a redundant thread that should have been closed before page 2 happened. This has been argued at great length several times. Locky locky please. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
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Posted - 2015.11.02 18:59:10 -
[47] - Quote
Repo Industries moved some ships thru a wormhole last night - We would of attacked you but after watch-listing we decided that attacking the confessor running the Blood site was not worth it - because too many of you online.
The Megathron parked at the WH was also an interesting target we had a cloaked Onxy next to it and some friends with a T3 & stealth bombers but the watch list was too much of a deterrent to attack especially since we couldn't find mooninites Heretic after he popped that Imicus and were not sure if the Stradious was from your Corp or not
Point being - without the watch list as a deterrent we would probably had a go & got slaughtered - Ships saved by Us content lost for you
Now you can Locky-Locky |
RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
157
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Posted - 2015.11.02 19:08:52 -
[48] - Quote
posting in
#WHINEYBITCHCREW thread
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Alundil
Isogen 5
1042
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Posted - 2015.11.02 19:17:46 -
[49] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Repo Industries moved some ships thru a wormhole last night - We would of attacked you but after watch-listing we decided that attacking the confessor running the Blood site was not worth it - because too many of you online.
The Megathron parked at the WH was also an interesting target we had a cloaked Onxy next to it and some friends with a T3 & stealth bombers but the watch list was too much of a deterrent to attack especially since we couldn't find mooninites Heretic after he popped that Imicus and were not sure if the Stradious was from your Corp or not
Point being - without the watch list as a deterrent we would probably had a go & got slaughtered - Ships saved by Us content lost for you
Now you can Locky-Locky OH FFS
You had a perfect opportunity to kill someone sitting on a WH in a battleship. And instead of scouting the other side to see if there was actually anything at all to be scared of you 'bicth'ed' out due to the watchlist telling you:
1 Onyx, 1 T3, some bombers (probably 3+) vs 1 Megathron (possibly 1 Heretic and 1 Stratios)
"We were going to totally blob, er I mean elite pvp, this megathron and kill him good, pod and all" "OMG guys, my watchlist shows they have 15 online and might, possibly, across all of the systems in New Eden outnumber us and cause a fight to occur wherein we might, potentially, maybe, possibly, get dunked and lose a couple ships. THE HORROR. Everyone stand down, stand down, POS up."
SMH
Quit being risk averse and actually wager your ship and pod in a fight. You might actually have some fun and not wind up looking like a fool for complaining you couldn't take a single mega for fear of the watchlist.
Sack up
I'm right behind you
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1538
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Posted - 2015.11.02 19:38:31 -
[50] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Repo Industries moved some ships thru a wormhole last night - We would of attacked you but after watch-listing we decided that attacking the confessor running the Blood site was not worth it - because too many of you online.
The Megathron parked at the WH was also an interesting target we had a cloaked Onxy next to it and some friends with a T3 & stealth bombers but the watch list was too much of a deterrent to attack especially since we couldn't find mooninites Heretic after he popped that Imicus and were not sure if the Stradious was from your Corp or not
Point being - without the watch list as a deterrent we would probably had a go & got slaughtered - Ships saved by Us content lost for you
Now you can Locky-Locky
We got slaughtered a few days ago by sleeper social club. We knew what was coming and we took the fight anyway. We figured we could get 3 of them, but only got 1. Poop happens.
The mega was on the hs because he rolled himself out.
I can't help you if you'll only fight when it's a sure win.
Now that we're all caught up on local events:
Here's the thing w/ the watchlist argument - it's a lot bigger than 2 small wh corps being bad at wormholes. This whole thread is about self indulgent sup pilots being sissy sallies and trying to change game mechanics so that the big target they longingly hopped into is harder to hunt and catch (Aridia) and/or so large groups can't be monitored when they have all their super pilots log in at the same time (large hammer drops).
They want to be able to log on 60+ supers and drop them w/ out being countered by an equivalent force. This is really really high end risk aversion at it's best. My corp and your corp are pretty insignificant in this whole thing. This isn't about empire war dec watch lists or something you cobble together seconds after you see someone jump into your wh. This is about fleets worth trillions of isk and lobbying to keep them safe.
What you and I do on our small gang wh level is totally insignificant in the watch list discussion. |
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Morgan Agrivar
Happy Endings Massage Parlor
146
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Posted - 2015.11.02 20:51:11 -
[51] - Quote
I don't see anything wrong with a watch list. In the real world, you have to pay to have someone watched. I think you can have a watch list but might have to pay an upkeep to have them constantly watched?
Also surprised that no one complains about Locater Agents. I think they are somewhat overpowered to be able to find someone anywhere for only 250k isk and a few minutes of their time.
Just something about me...
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2808
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Posted - 2015.11.02 21:02:11 -
[52] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Rowells wrote: Killboard a only report if you or the aggressor are linked to it, report it manually, and/or are delayed. They also don't show anything if you don't do anything. Could I use a killboard to track down your freighter and kill him within a couple sittings? Or wouldn't it be more effective to run a locator, add to watchlist, and then do something else while I wait?
Exactly. Watchlists merely report online/offline status, Killboards may be delayed, but they show a lot more intel than that. As I said: "Any intel concerning if they are in a coffin ship or not is entirely based on other sources." Let me try again, what Intel does a killboard provide, if I do not leave a trail of bodies behind me and how timely is that information?
And aside from that, is a killboard provide only snapshot Intel. From the moment it pops up, it begins to decay in value until it sometimes expires from relevance. It will not self-update with new or changing indicators (unless CREST is fubar).
Does a watchlist have those limitations? No. It is 100% accurate, 100% of the time and is bad along similar lines to local channels. There is no ambiguity, no interpretation, no possibility of interference or false-positives, no fun. Just buttons and bacon. |
Madd Adda
137
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Posted - 2015.11.02 21:36:32 -
[53] - Quote
Rowells wrote: Does a watchlist have those limitations? No. It is 100% accurate, 100% of the time and is bad along similar lines to local channels. There is no ambiguity, no interpretation, no possibility of interference or false-positives, no fun. Just buttons and bacon.
and what info does watchlists ALONE provide? oh right, just if a pilot is now online/offline. That's it. much has your example of killboards, watchlists only provide so much info. Do you know where your target is? nope. Do you know what they are doing? nope. Are they flying Gankalysts and coming for you? who knows?
I'll try explaining it again. an online/offline indicator isn't broken. You need other intel sources like locator agents to even make use of it.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:11:20 -
[54] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Rowells wrote: Does a watchlist have those limitations? No. It is 100% accurate, 100% of the time and is bad along similar lines to local channels. There is no ambiguity, no interpretation, no possibility of interference or false-positives, no fun. Just buttons and bacon.
and what info does watchlists ALONE provide? oh right, just if a pilot is now online/offline. That's it. much has your example of killboards, watchlists only provide so much info. Do you know where your target is? nope. Do you know what they are doing? nope. Are they flying Gankalysts and coming for you? who knows? I'll try explaining it again. an online/offline indicator isn't broken. You need other intel sources like locator agents to even make use of it.
and what info does watchlists ALONE provide? - Maybe just enough incentive not to take a fight ? |
Madd Adda
137
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:16:41 -
[55] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
and what info does watchlists ALONE provide? - Maybe just enough incentive not to take a fight ?
okay? and? if you want to lose your fleet so bad go out and take on some goons or something. Watchlists don't make the enemy unassailable
Carebear extraordinaire
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Wolf Lafisques
Maraque Enterprises Just let it happen
14
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:27:07 -
[56] - Quote
I think the watch list is working as intended. I believe that it was mentioned before that it's called a watch list, not a friends list, for a reason. It seems clear to me that it was designed for real-time intelligence. It also seems silly to me that a Titan pilot would be brought down by something as petty as the watch list. If you, your corp, or your alliance are willing to invest Brazilians of ISK creating a space paperweight, it seems to me that said pilot, corp, or alliance should be responsible enough to provide sufficient security for that Titan when it goes online. Kinda going back to the whole "don't fly it if you can't afford to replace it" thing, only in a larger context.
Then again, I'm not a Titan pilot, nor do I know much about Titans, so maybe my thoughts on this matter are lacking a lot of depth. Even so, it still just seems odd to me that something as valuable as a Titan would be left so cripplingly vulnerable to something like the watch list. Aren't there much larger, much more capable threats? |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:42:55 -
[57] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
and what info does watchlists ALONE provide? - Maybe just enough incentive not to take a fight ?
okay? and? if you want to lose your fleet so bad go out and take on some goons or something. Watchlists don't make the enemy unassailable
Most people are by nature risk adverse. So we should ask do we need watch-lists if they remove the incentive to fight.
I think it can be broken down further to ask "Is a little knowledge more of a deterrent than no knowledge" ?
'They have a Confessor, Heretic and a Megathron can we beat them ' becomes 'They have a Confessor, Heretic and a Megathron can we beat them - no point they have 22 corpmates online we will just get blobbed '
Its not about the information as much as the perception of increased risk that little extra info gives you.
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Madd Adda
137
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Posted - 2015.11.02 23:01:36 -
[58] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: Its not about the information as much as the perception of increased risk that little extra info gives you.
and that's a part of EVE. not just the power you possess, in the sense of pilots and ship assets, but the perceived power the enemy thinks you have. This is a viable tactic, and shouldn't be nerfed.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
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Posted - 2015.11.02 23:12:30 -
[59] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: Its not about the information as much as the perception of increased risk that little extra info gives you.
and that's a part of EVE. not just the power you possess, in the sense of pilots and ship assets, but the perceived power the enemy thinks you have. This is a viable tactic, and shouldn't be nerfed.
Again you have avoided the fact that it encourages people to avoid (or leave) fights
Don't confuse what you perceive with what you know -- There is a big difference between the "perceived power" of a Corp that has an info tab saying they have 100 members and the "known power" of seeing that 80 of them have just logged in or are already online. |
Madd Adda
137
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Posted - 2015.11.02 23:21:57 -
[60] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Again you have avoided the fact that it encourages people to avoid (or leave) fights
Don't confuse what you perceive with what you know -- There is a big difference between the "perceived power" of a Corp that has an info tab saying they have 100 members and the "known power" of seeing that 80 of them have just logged in or are already online.
to be honest, I'm on the side that wants to avoid fights. This is my prospective, I don't care if other oppose it. If FCs were so risk adverse about fighting a corp with 20 supers, then they wouldn't fight to start. Even with Watchlists the way they are now, fights happen. Even with large Coalitions around, they still get jumped. You assume that nerfing watchlists will be the magic bullet that solves this, but it won't.
Carebear extraordinaire
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