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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
329
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:06:59 -
[1] - Quote
The Paladin and the Kronos are widely regared as the worst (pvp wise) of the marauders as they are entirely cap dependent whereas the shield counterparts have capless weapons and potentially capless defensive systems with ASB's or even *shudder* a passive recharge tank.
The Paladin Traits
Amarr BS/Level
- 5% Bonus to capacitor capacity
- 7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range
Marauders Bonus/Level
- 7.5% to Armor Repair Amount
- 5% to Large Energy Turret Damage
Role Bonus 100% to Large Energy Turret Damage (you only have 4 turrets so this is necessary at least) 100% to tractor beams range and velocity (OK nice pve bonus) 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay (daddy like) Can Fit Bastion Modules - Not really a bonus so much as required for operation
The Paladin suffers from no application bonus that is...no tracking. Projection is great...as long as you're shooting a BC+ ship in size. The real difficulty is that even with an enormous capacitor it can be take out of the fight by a couple neuts...and it just takes a bit longer if it is injecting.
Honestly? just change the turret damage to tracking of 7.5%/level and up the role bonus to 125% -> 150% and make the fittings generous enough that you can dual rep with tachyons with 2x t2 grid rigs and have high slot neuts and nos and/or smartbombs.
I can fit cap batteries to help against neuts and such. That I don't mind. Of course I'd like a look at cap batteries to see if their fittings need adjustment as well as if they are effective enough at countering nos/neut warfare. I'm sorta ignorant as to their effectiveness. Maybe people can clear up that part.
The Kronos suffers just as much from being subjected to cap warfare too commonly. but I like it. I fly it all the time and honestly its great for holding onto a carrier that is caught ratting. And of course in limited engagements.
All marauders could use more agility and an improved base warp speed to be like command ships (3.0au/sec or at least up to 2.7).
o7 |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Vendetta Mercenary Group
24
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:37:41 -
[2] - Quote
Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1721
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:53:02 -
[3] - Quote
BABARR wrote:Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all.
From the thread for their rebalance.CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16911
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Posted - 2015.11.13 02:01:55 -
[4] - Quote
They are not badly balanced, the problem is the vast bulk of people think battleships cant pvp and have no idea how to fit or use them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2688
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Posted - 2015.11.13 02:17:25 -
[5] - Quote
The actual problem you are complaining about OP is the overpowering nature of the ASB's especially when dual ASB fitted. Not the base ships.
Though I would love a buff to the Paladins, and even more I'd love them to actually 'maraud' like their description says rather than turn into expensive loot pinata's that are stationary, first address the modules causing the issue. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
524
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Posted - 2015.11.13 03:05:06 -
[6] - Quote
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1925
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Posted - 2015.11.13 03:37:32 -
[7] - Quote
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Leto Aramaus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
342
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Posted - 2015.11.13 03:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
WOW I didn't think anyone else agreed...
The UI update we deserve
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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
407
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Posted - 2015.11.13 04:12:13 -
[9] - Quote
I think I've seen more solo kronoses than anything else, actually. And the pali seems to suffer more from using lasers than anything else; their greatest advantage being battles at ranges that a solo ship can't dictate. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3620
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Posted - 2015.11.13 04:48:34 -
[10] - Quote
The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.
It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.
I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank. |
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
698
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Posted - 2015.11.13 08:30:32 -
[11] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.
It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.
I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank.
Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
231
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Posted - 2015.11.13 10:08:57 -
[12] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.
There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.
I believe the Vargur and Golem are fine soley because they CAN fit ASBs and aren't completely cap dependent like the Kronos and Pally.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3623
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Posted - 2015.11.13 13:38:42 -
[13] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs. No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense.
My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus.
By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity.
The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway.
It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
527
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Posted - 2015.11.13 13:57:35 -
[14] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line. There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at. So what do the armor marauder have against neuts? nothing. thats right. the Cap battery is crap
inb4 shield paladin
the asb was a flawed design, and only created for crapmatar ships that were lacking mids.
then they said well we need a armor asb too. lets limit it to 1, and make it crap.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
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Posted - 2015.11.13 15:00:55 -
[15] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs. No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense. My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus. By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity. The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway. It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.
The paladin is a great pvp ship. Set it on the field, push the button, and kill all incoming falconry. Tachs burn down falcons as fast as they land. The paladin isn't the high damage on the kb platform. They gave you a range bonus - use it. It was born to burn falcons and rooks off the field. Add a sensor booster and one of those passive targeters and burn them all!
If you're a falcon pilot, would you want to be on the field with a paladin? Heck no!
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3624
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Posted - 2015.11.13 15:19:01 -
[16] - Quote
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
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Posted - 2015.11.13 15:26:23 -
[17] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.
But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work.
You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
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Posted - 2015.11.13 15:32:28 -
[18] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them.
All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.
My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3625
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Posted - 2015.11.13 16:24:46 -
[19] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work. You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode.
Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening.
The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is.
The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1931
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Posted - 2015.11.13 16:53:54 -
[20] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine. ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them. All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.
The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1584
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Posted - 2015.11.13 17:10:14 -
[21] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine. ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them. All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure. The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.
Oh I know. I'm just saying that ASB allows smaller fleets to fight (or try to fight) above their weight class. I get it - you don't like them. I'm OK w/ that. I'm OK w/ a larger fleet bringing and ASB fleet and having to call 'no joy' and bug out. It opens up a lot of midsized shield ships some local rep options that just weren't there before. For me it's plus AND minus. You win some and you lose some. If I won them all, I'd have to change my name to Vimsy, and that would be a true abomination.
My opinion on marauders w/ XL ASB - not good. Goon-X XL reppers are dirt cheap due to overfarming, so Gist-X repper w/ cap booster is a much better way to go so you don't die during reload.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1584
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Posted - 2015.11.13 17:14:17 -
[22] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work. You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening. The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is. The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable.
I don't fight in HS much anymore. We don't have enough guys to run logi. We don't have nuetral reps. We don't have neutral scouts watching every gate w/in 3 jumps. The paladin is a 'round 2' ship after your get jammed of the field in round 1.
Not everyone plays eve in safe mode sweety. Some of us just go for it with what we have available at a moments notice. |
Shitposting Forum Alt
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.14 00:38:53 -
[23] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. hahahahahahahahahaha.
I hope you're not serious. |
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1580
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Posted - 2015.11.14 01:01:07 -
[24] - Quote
Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess.
Yaay!!!!
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
278
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Posted - 2015.11.14 01:18:44 -
[25] - Quote
First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.
Been around since the beginning.
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Shitposting Forum Alt
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.14 01:26:48 -
[26] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons. Mmmmmm how exactly can a Paladin run its reps if it's being neuted by 2 Bhaalgorns... because the ASB ships can. See thats the thing with Marauders, they are ewar immune but not neut immune, except if you're an ASB Golem or Vargur. Thats why its unbalanced, not because its neut immune, but because its immune to everything but raw DPS. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2715
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Posted - 2015.11.14 02:27:04 -
[27] - Quote
I think you guys just don't know how to use a regular shield booster. ASBs are nice, but they are hardly some overpowered monster item.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
331
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Posted - 2015.11.14 08:19:57 -
[28] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:BABARR wrote:Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all. From the thread for their rebalance. CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well.
You might be a hero. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
331
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Posted - 2015.11.14 08:26:27 -
[29] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.
They are not. You are wrong. Witness all the carriers I have held down with a golem or kronos. The Vargur is good...just bought one so that will be making noise soon.
My paladin is hawt and skinned with the raata sunset skin. However - it is not as useful as the Kronos in general. I'll probably save it for more use after the capital changes when I presumable won't get 2 shotted by a dread in siege.
Also - all of them need a better capacitor recharge rate in bastion (T2 Bastion plz?)
The Paladin is find for structures or BC+ sized targets. But as a solo ship it is mostly worthless. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
992
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Posted - 2015.11.14 16:21:28 -
[30] - Quote
A Vargur can fit 3 x XLASB. A Golem can fit 3 x LASB, but does so with rapid heavy missiles for better application.
The ships have their native advantages of weapons not using cap, but the underlying issue is the stacking of ASBs. That said, ASB are virtually useless if you can't stack them, as you can get better outcome with an XLSB and 2 cap boosters. Sure, you wouldn't boost for as much, but you'd be able to boost more often.
LAARs have the advantage of running more cycles, but still require cap, and can't be stacked, but armor tanks typically have more EHP. If they removed the cap usage of AARs, then the Kronos, and especially Paladin, would perform much better.
Having said all that, I would prefer they're all removed entirely, but that likely won't happen.
Side note... What we should be worrying about here is if CCP is going to take ewar immunity away from bastion. As it sits now, they've already stated they're removing immunity from caps and going to ewar resistance.
Marauders are gonna suck again if they don't have the full effect of immunity, seeing as how they can't receive remote assistance if using bastion. |
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