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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
329
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:06:59 -
[1] - Quote
The Paladin and the Kronos are widely regared as the worst (pvp wise) of the marauders as they are entirely cap dependent whereas the shield counterparts have capless weapons and potentially capless defensive systems with ASB's or even *shudder* a passive recharge tank.
The Paladin Traits
Amarr BS/Level
- 5% Bonus to capacitor capacity
- 7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range
Marauders Bonus/Level
- 7.5% to Armor Repair Amount
- 5% to Large Energy Turret Damage
Role Bonus 100% to Large Energy Turret Damage (you only have 4 turrets so this is necessary at least) 100% to tractor beams range and velocity (OK nice pve bonus) 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay (daddy like) Can Fit Bastion Modules - Not really a bonus so much as required for operation
The Paladin suffers from no application bonus that is...no tracking. Projection is great...as long as you're shooting a BC+ ship in size. The real difficulty is that even with an enormous capacitor it can be take out of the fight by a couple neuts...and it just takes a bit longer if it is injecting.
Honestly? just change the turret damage to tracking of 7.5%/level and up the role bonus to 125% -> 150% and make the fittings generous enough that you can dual rep with tachyons with 2x t2 grid rigs and have high slot neuts and nos and/or smartbombs.
I can fit cap batteries to help against neuts and such. That I don't mind. Of course I'd like a look at cap batteries to see if their fittings need adjustment as well as if they are effective enough at countering nos/neut warfare. I'm sorta ignorant as to their effectiveness. Maybe people can clear up that part.
The Kronos suffers just as much from being subjected to cap warfare too commonly. but I like it. I fly it all the time and honestly its great for holding onto a carrier that is caught ratting. And of course in limited engagements.
All marauders could use more agility and an improved base warp speed to be like command ships (3.0au/sec or at least up to 2.7).
o7 |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Vendetta Mercenary Group
24
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:37:41 -
[2] - Quote
Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1721
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:53:02 -
[3] - Quote
BABARR wrote:Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all.
From the thread for their rebalance.CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16911
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 02:01:55 -
[4] - Quote
They are not badly balanced, the problem is the vast bulk of people think battleships cant pvp and have no idea how to fit or use them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2688
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Posted - 2015.11.13 02:17:25 -
[5] - Quote
The actual problem you are complaining about OP is the overpowering nature of the ASB's especially when dual ASB fitted. Not the base ships.
Though I would love a buff to the Paladins, and even more I'd love them to actually 'maraud' like their description says rather than turn into expensive loot pinata's that are stationary, first address the modules causing the issue. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
524
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 03:05:06 -
[6] - Quote
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1925
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Posted - 2015.11.13 03:37:32 -
[7] - Quote
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Leto Aramaus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
342
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 03:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
WOW I didn't think anyone else agreed...
The UI update we deserve
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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
407
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 04:12:13 -
[9] - Quote
I think I've seen more solo kronoses than anything else, actually. And the pali seems to suffer more from using lasers than anything else; their greatest advantage being battles at ranges that a solo ship can't dictate. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3620
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Posted - 2015.11.13 04:48:34 -
[10] - Quote
The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.
It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.
I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank. |
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
698
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Posted - 2015.11.13 08:30:32 -
[11] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.
It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.
I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank.
Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
231
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 10:08:57 -
[12] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.
There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.
I believe the Vargur and Golem are fine soley because they CAN fit ASBs and aren't completely cap dependent like the Kronos and Pally.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3623
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Posted - 2015.11.13 13:38:42 -
[13] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs. No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense.
My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus.
By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity.
The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway.
It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
527
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 13:57:35 -
[14] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line. There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at. So what do the armor marauder have against neuts? nothing. thats right. the Cap battery is crap
inb4 shield paladin
the asb was a flawed design, and only created for crapmatar ships that were lacking mids.
then they said well we need a armor asb too. lets limit it to 1, and make it crap.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 15:00:55 -
[15] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs. No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense. My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus. By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity. The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway. It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.
The paladin is a great pvp ship. Set it on the field, push the button, and kill all incoming falconry. Tachs burn down falcons as fast as they land. The paladin isn't the high damage on the kb platform. They gave you a range bonus - use it. It was born to burn falcons and rooks off the field. Add a sensor booster and one of those passive targeters and burn them all!
If you're a falcon pilot, would you want to be on the field with a paladin? Heck no!
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3624
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Posted - 2015.11.13 15:19:01 -
[16] - Quote
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 15:26:23 -
[17] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.
But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work.
You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1582
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 15:32:28 -
[18] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.
ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them.
All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.
My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3625
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:24:46 -
[19] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work. You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode.
Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening.
The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is.
The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1931
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:53:54 -
[20] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine. ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them. All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.
The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1584
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 17:10:14 -
[21] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare
The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.
I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine. ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them. All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure. The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.
Oh I know. I'm just saying that ASB allows smaller fleets to fight (or try to fight) above their weight class. I get it - you don't like them. I'm OK w/ that. I'm OK w/ a larger fleet bringing and ASB fleet and having to call 'no joy' and bug out. It opens up a lot of midsized shield ships some local rep options that just weren't there before. For me it's plus AND minus. You win some and you lose some. If I won them all, I'd have to change my name to Vimsy, and that would be a true abomination.
My opinion on marauders w/ XL ASB - not good. Goon-X XL reppers are dirt cheap due to overfarming, so Gist-X repper w/ cap booster is a much better way to go so you don't die during reload.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1584
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Posted - 2015.11.13 17:14:17 -
[22] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine. But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work. You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening. The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is. The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable.
I don't fight in HS much anymore. We don't have enough guys to run logi. We don't have nuetral reps. We don't have neutral scouts watching every gate w/in 3 jumps. The paladin is a 'round 2' ship after your get jammed of the field in round 1.
Not everyone plays eve in safe mode sweety. Some of us just go for it with what we have available at a moments notice. |
Shitposting Forum Alt
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.14 00:38:53 -
[23] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS. hahahahahahahahahaha.
I hope you're not serious. |
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1580
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 01:01:07 -
[24] - Quote
Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess.
Yaay!!!!
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
278
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Posted - 2015.11.14 01:18:44 -
[25] - Quote
First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.
Been around since the beginning.
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Shitposting Forum Alt
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.14 01:26:48 -
[26] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons. Mmmmmm how exactly can a Paladin run its reps if it's being neuted by 2 Bhaalgorns... because the ASB ships can. See thats the thing with Marauders, they are ewar immune but not neut immune, except if you're an ASB Golem or Vargur. Thats why its unbalanced, not because its neut immune, but because its immune to everything but raw DPS. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2715
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 02:27:04 -
[27] - Quote
I think you guys just don't know how to use a regular shield booster. ASBs are nice, but they are hardly some overpowered monster item.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
331
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 08:19:57 -
[28] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:BABARR wrote:Marauder are not designed for PVP. CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all. From the thread for their rebalance. CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well.
You might be a hero. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
331
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 08:26:27 -
[29] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:First off, marauders are pve ships. Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.
They are not. You are wrong. Witness all the carriers I have held down with a golem or kronos. The Vargur is good...just bought one so that will be making noise soon.
My paladin is hawt and skinned with the raata sunset skin. However - it is not as useful as the Kronos in general. I'll probably save it for more use after the capital changes when I presumable won't get 2 shotted by a dread in siege.
Also - all of them need a better capacitor recharge rate in bastion (T2 Bastion plz?)
The Paladin is find for structures or BC+ sized targets. But as a solo ship it is mostly worthless. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
992
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:21:28 -
[30] - Quote
A Vargur can fit 3 x XLASB. A Golem can fit 3 x LASB, but does so with rapid heavy missiles for better application.
The ships have their native advantages of weapons not using cap, but the underlying issue is the stacking of ASBs. That said, ASB are virtually useless if you can't stack them, as you can get better outcome with an XLSB and 2 cap boosters. Sure, you wouldn't boost for as much, but you'd be able to boost more often.
LAARs have the advantage of running more cycles, but still require cap, and can't be stacked, but armor tanks typically have more EHP. If they removed the cap usage of AARs, then the Kronos, and especially Paladin, would perform much better.
Having said all that, I would prefer they're all removed entirely, but that likely won't happen.
Side note... What we should be worrying about here is if CCP is going to take ewar immunity away from bastion. As it sits now, they've already stated they're removing immunity from caps and going to ewar resistance.
Marauders are gonna suck again if they don't have the full effect of immunity, seeing as how they can't receive remote assistance if using bastion. |
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
235
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Posted - 2015.11.15 02:22:12 -
[31] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs. No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense. My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus. By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity. The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway. It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.
Agreed.
I believe CCP design the Paladins this way so as to not obsolete the NMs.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
237
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Posted - 2015.11.15 14:50:57 -
[32] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line. There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at. So what do the armor marauder have against neuts? nothing. thats right. the Cap battery is crap inb4 shield paladin the asb was a flawed design, and only created for crapmatar ships that were lacking mids. then they said well we need a armor asb too. lets limit it to 1, and make it crap.
It's true that the Cap Batteries and AARs are garbage but for some reason, CCP don't think they need addressing. Instead of complaining about how OP the ASBs are, I wish players would instead start complaining about how UN-OP the cap batteries and AARs are.
I would actually prefer if CCP gave the Armor Marauders a more powerful cap recharge and the Shield Marauders a much larger cargo bay capacity. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
269
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Posted - 2015.11.15 15:14:16 -
[33] - Quote
For those complaining about the Paladin...
It already has a larger cap recharge rate AND capacity than the Kronos - so much so that even firing the highest-cap ammo still gives it a longer cap life than the Kronos. In fact it has the best recharge and cap pool of any marauder. So yes, better cap recharge/capacity is already baked into the hull - but that's just the thing, people don't see things that aren't bonuses.
It also doesn't seem to need any application bonuses either. Pulse are awesome for tracking - maybe not as great as blasters, but I don't have any trouble hitting plenty of targets even before I use scripted tracking comps.
It's just my opinion - but I love my Paladin just the way it is. I don't want people messing with it, because if you get something given CCP will have to take something away and as I said, I like it precisely how it is now. It's a fantastic ship. All of the Marauders are.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1945
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Posted - 2015.11.15 20:31:58 -
[34] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:For those complaining about the Paladin...
It already has a larger cap recharge rate AND capacity than the Kronos - so much so that even firing the highest-cap ammo still gives it a longer cap life than the Kronos. In fact it has the best recharge and cap pool of any marauder. So yes, better cap recharge/capacity is already baked into the hull - but that's just the thing, people don't see things that aren't bonuses.
It also doesn't seem to need any application bonuses either. Pulse are awesome for tracking - maybe not as great as blasters, but I don't have any trouble hitting plenty of targets even before I use scripted tracking comps.
It's just my opinion - but I love my Paladin just the way it is. I don't want people messing with it, because if you get something given CCP will have to take something away and as I said, I like it precisely how it is now. It's a fantastic ship. All of the Marauders are.
Completely agree.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
237
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 02:06:36 -
[35] - Quote
The most powerful form of combat in Eve is Cap Warfare because neuts are OP as hell without any counters aside from ASBs. For this reason the Shield Marauders are good for both PVE and PVP and can be used everywhere. By contrast the Armor Marauders are entirely cap dependant and are extremely vulnerable to cap warfare which makes them only good for PVE in protective environments. They cannot be used solo unlike the Shield Marauders and are in dire need of a recompense for their extreme vulnerablity against cap warfare. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2825
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Posted - 2015.11.16 02:18:38 -
[36] - Quote
You mean you don't use a cap booster? |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
271
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 04:02:05 -
[37] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:The most powerful form of combat in Eve is Cap Warfare because neuts are OP as hell without any counters aside from ASBs. For this reason the Shield Marauders are good for both PVE and PVP and can be used everywhere. By contrast the Armor Marauders are entirely cap dependant and are extremely vulnerable to cap warfare which makes them only good for PVE in protective environments. They cannot be used solo unlike the Shield Marauders and are in dire need of a recompense for their extreme vulnerablity against cap warfare.
I'd say that's an iffy assertion.
Yes, after a point, cap warfare is the most powerful form. But getting to that point is the problem. If you jam someone, they're immediately out of the fight. If you turret disrupt someone, they are immediately gimped. If you start neuting someone, it doesn't really effect them until they have to start turning off active modules. Depending on the size of the ship and the size of the offensive neut, this takes a varying amount of time. The fight might end before the neut has had time to really cause an impact on the outcome. Not to mention that neuts already take a lot of cap to activate in the first place (and a lot of fitting resources), so the host ship isn't getting this for free either. With the incoming neut nerf, you can't even be guaranteed anymore that you'll be neuting more than you're draining yourself by activating the module.
Besides, there's a ton of counters already. As you pointed out, ASB - capless shield tanking, dependent on cargo. Cap boosters - from what I understand it's almost a stable of every PvP ship regardless. It's no secret that running a bunch of active modules - including tank, prop, point, weapons, etc, runs your capacitor dry on it's own. Hence why people already equip cap boosters, which already counter neuts very effectively.
I think that what needs to change is cap batteries need a very significant reduction in their fitting requirements across all sizes. Some people have put forth ideas on changing how cap batteries work. That's great and I support that, but until that happens, their current use does not warrant the resources the modules take up. Cut the fittings in half at the very least, and if they are made more useful we can talk about upping the requirements again. Make batteries easier to equip, more people will do so, and neuting will have a harder time taking effect.
(I've had one, one opponent equip a cap battery when I've been neuting him. I can't imagine how much he had to gimp his setup to use it, and it didn't help him at all. So like I said, for what these modules bring, which is virtually nothing, they need reduced fitting)
That a bit of an aside, though. You are correct that the armor marauders are a bit worse off in general, but that's the nature of armor and shield tanking being different and having different strengths. I like that EvE has interesting differences in that way because that means choices matter a bit more, instead of a system where everything *generally* works so it doesn't matter as much what you bring.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Kitten Ripper
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 10:59:32 -
[38] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:... I can fit cap batteries to help against neuts and such. That I don't mind. Of course I'd like a look at cap batteries to see if their fittings need adjustment as well as if they are effective enough at countering nos/neut warfare. I'm sorta ignorant as to their effectiveness. Maybe people can clear up that part....
o7 So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2702
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 12:56:24 -
[39] - Quote
Kitten Ripper wrote: So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?
Massive fitting costs. Still don't keep up with neuts.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
272
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 13:02:16 -
[40] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kitten Ripper wrote: So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?
Massive fitting costs. Still don't keep up with neuts.
Also probably doesn't keep up with cap consumption. Also assumes target will stay within NOS range. Also assumes a Marauder, a battleship-sized slowboating monster whose special ability is sitting still, might have a chance to chase down and NOS a fool.
Unlikely. NOS are an option, but unlikely to fulfill a need in this case.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1592
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 13:08:49 -
[41] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kitten Ripper wrote: So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?
Massive fitting costs. Still don't keep up with neuts.
You'll never be happy. (PRO HINT: you can't have it all) |
big miker
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
380
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 18:44:04 -
[42] - Quote
Vargur and Golem are pretty good PVP wise infact. Paladin and Kronos lack. The main reason is 4 medium slots. Since it get's a bonus to MJD's you'd want to fit a combination like this:
MJD MWD Web Scram or Disruptor Cap booster
The Vargur and Golem are both able to do that in combination with a respectable tank. I'd love to see the Kronos or Paladin recieve a total of 5 medium slots. Hel, i'd even sign for 5 meds and 6 low slots on a Kronos!
Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / marauders
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
316
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:13:06 -
[43] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line. There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at. Nothing wrong with the ASB, it is one of a solo / small gang pilots best friends. I must admit it can get a bit crazy on the Vargur and Golem, but again that is partly due to the massive cargo bay of those ships and so could easily be tweaked.
Armour reps are a lot less cap dependant than shield reps. Combined with the fact that you would have a cap booster/s in the mids which are not as valuable as to an armour tanking ship, you can effectively perma run armour reps too until your cap boosters run out. Why do you think their is such a prevelance of dual or even triple rep armour ships; it is because it is one of the most powerful combinations for a solo / small gang pilot. They are much more common that dual ASBs.
Out of all things I think ASBs and AARs are in a good position. That being said I don't see why we can't have multiple AARs on an armour ship.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
316
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:21:35 -
[44] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:The most powerful form of combat in Eve is Cap Warfare because neuts are OP as hell without any counters aside from ASBs. For this reason the Shield Marauders are good for both PVE and PVP and can be used everywhere. By contrast the Armor Marauders are entirely cap dependant and are extremely vulnerable to cap warfare which makes them only good for PVE in protective environments. They cannot be used solo unlike the Shield Marauders and are in dire need of a recompense for their extreme vulnerablity against cap warfare. What... There are so many counters to cap warfare. It is one of the easiest forms of ewar to counter in my opinion, especially if your using capless weapons.
ECM on the other hand....
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
993
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:23:32 -
[45] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Nothing wrong with the ASB, it is one of a solo / small gang pilots best friends. I must admit it can get a bit crazy on the Vargur and Golem, but again that is partly due to the massive cargo bay of those ships and so could easily be tweaked.
for the love of god, don't take away from cargo capacity.
I use the vast majority of it on a daily basis in PVP, PVE, and structure bashing.
Edit... Also, I'm thinking bastion is going to end up being effected by the upcoming changes to ewar immunity on capitals. If they're taking it away from them, I'm pretty sure they're taking it from bastion Marauders. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
237
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 09:54:25 -
[46] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Moac Tor wrote: Nothing wrong with the ASB, it is one of a solo / small gang pilots best friends. I must admit it can get a bit crazy on the Vargur and Golem, but again that is partly due to the massive cargo bay of those ships and so could easily be tweaked.
for the love of god, don't take away from cargo capacity. I use the vast majority of it on a daily basis in PVP, PVE, and structure bashing. Edit... Also, I'm thinking bastion is going to end up being effected by the upcoming changes to ewar immunity on capitals. If they're taking it away from them, I'm pretty sure they're taking it from bastion Marauders.
If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
276
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 11:24:45 -
[47] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
Don't give CCP any ideas. EWAR immunity is one of the primary reasons to use a Marauder. If they take that away, they'd have to give them something massive in return precisely because you'd be right, they would be garbage. Like maybe a very heavy mobility bonus, cap recharge supercharge, or something.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 15:00:38 -
[48] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
Don't give CCP any ideas. EWAR immunity is one of the primary reasons to use a Marauder. If they take that away, they'd have to give them something massive in return precisely because you'd be right, they would be garbage. Like maybe a very heavy mobility bonus, cap recharge supercharge, or something.
Exactly. Bastion providing ewar immunity was CCP's fix for Marauders. Instead of actually rebalancing the ships, they just created a module.
If they take away ewar immunity, they might as well get rid of bastion and completely rebalance the hulls, as that is the only reason to even risk going into bastion. |
Ariz Black
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 15:10:57 -
[49] - Quote
just give the kronos its 90% webs back and all will be fine once again |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:32:40 -
[50] - Quote
Ariz Black wrote:just give the kronos its 90% webs back and all will be fine once again
This doesn't really help the Paladin though...
I will say, what could be interesting is a web range bonus on the Kronos (based on the fact that it's a stationary longer range gun boat). Then, perhaps a bonus to vamps on the Kronos. This would allow it to pull cap from other ships in order to keep itself up. |
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
342
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 19:50:32 -
[51] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The paladin is a great pvp ship. Set it on the field, push the button, and kill all incoming falconry. Tachs burn down falcons as fast as they land. The paladin isn't the high damage on the kb platform. They gave you a range bonus - use it. It was born to burn falcons and rooks off the field. Add a sensor booster and one of those passive targeters and burn them all!
If you're a falcon pilot, would you want to be on the field with a paladin? Heck no!
And why..........couldn't a vargur/golem do the same while being completely capacitor independant?
Because hurrrrrrrrdurrrrrrrrr.
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:23:33 -
[52] - Quote
based on read on this thread it boil down to this ASB is OP because it count Neut There is no good counter against Neut version for Armour ship. solution. give Krono/Paladin role bonus to reduce or remove cap cost on Ancillary Armour repairer? |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
319
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:08:53 -
[53] - Quote
unidenify wrote:based on read on this thread it boil down to this ASB is OP because it count Neut There is no good counter against Neut version for Armour ship. solution. give Krono/Paladin role bonus to reduce or remove cap cost on Ancillary Armour repairer? Cap boosters.
The problem with the Paladin is more tracking and damage application IMO. Lasers are the worst tracking weapons and then combine it with the fact that the Paladin is the only Marauder which gets not bonus to tracking.
Easy solution is to increase its drone bay or give it some tracking bonuses.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
342
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:09:34 -
[54] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:
There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.
Nothing wrong with the ASB, it is one of a solo / small gang pilots best friends. I must admit it can get a bit crazy on the Vargur and Golem, but again that is partly due to the massive cargo bay of those ships and so could easily be tweaked. Armour reps are a lot less cap dependant than shield reps. Combined with the fact that you would have a cap booster/s in the mids which are not as valuable as to an armour tanking ship, you can effectively perma run armour reps too until your cap boosters run out. Why do you think their is such a prevelance of dual or even triple rep armour ships... it is because it is one of the most powerful combinations for a solo / small gang pilot. Dual armour reps are much more common that dual ASBs. Out of all things I think ASBs and AARs are in a good position. That being said I don't see why we can't have multiple AARs on an armour ship. [I'd say the problem with the Paladin is that it needs to be better at tracking targets, when you are stationary it is too easy to signature tank battleship guns. If I were to suggest any change though I'd perhaps look at a drone bonus along with extra drone bay]
If AARs weren't limited to 1 per ship and didn't use any cap, they'd be balanced.
Armor reps are MORE cap dependent because there is no capless alternative like with shield. They also don't benefit from being able to fit multiple AARs or having pirate implants that boost the amount repped. There's also the issue of deadspace reps being much more expensive than deadspace shield boosters.
While midslots are at a premium on all ships, ASBs save you from even having to fit an injector in the first place.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
238
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:14:56 -
[55] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:unidenify wrote:based on read on this thread it boil down to this ASB is OP because it count Neut There is no good counter against Neut version for Armour ship. solution. give Krono/Paladin role bonus to reduce or remove cap cost on Ancillary Armour repairer? Cap boosters. The problem with the Paladin is more tracking and damage application IMO. Lasers are the worst tracking weapons and then combine it with the fact that the Paladin is the only Marauder which gets not bonus to tracking. Easy solution is to increase its drone bay or give it some tracking bonuses.
Mostly agree with you here Moac.
As Vimsy said earlier in this post, CCP should give the Paladins a built in 25% more cap capacity and recharge rate. And replace the 5% bonus to ship capacitor capacity Amarr BS skill with a 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed.
I'll feel bad for the NMs, but with costing 2.5x less than the Pallys they'll still have their uses.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:41:56 -
[56] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Mostly agree with you here Moac.
As Vimsy said earlier in this post, CCP should give the Paladins a built in 25% more cap capacity and recharge rate. And replace the 5% bonus to ship capacitor capacity Amarr BS skill with a 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed.
I'll feel bad for the NMs, but with costing 2.5x less than the Pallys they'll still have their uses.
Nightmare Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 30% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
The nightmare has damage, speed, tracking, and can shield tank. I'm sure it will be just fine. On top of that, you can be in a nightmare in 7 days as opposed to 115 days for the Pali.
Giving the Pali a tracking bonus will have no effect on the Nightmare, in a PVP context. As far as PVE, Marauders out tank and out range pirate hulls, while pirate hulls can out DPS and out speed. It's the same case for the NM vs Pali.
So, a tracking bonus for the Pali is suited well here. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
278
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 03:12:39 -
[57] - Quote
I happen to like the optimal bonus on the Paladin. It allows me to use higher-damaging ammo at longer ranges with both beams and pulse. And tracking has never been an issue for me. But maybe that's because the Paladin IS a different Marauder and needs to be flown differently. When you do so, it is a stellar ship. It is my preferred Marauder.
If tracking is a problem for you, I'd say look at your setups and your flying/combat technique. If using beams against, say, Blood Raiders, a MJD + two tracking computers (optimal range) script is phenomenal. If using pulse against, say, everything else, MWD alone should get you to where you need. With pulse there's a lot of versatility because of the optimal range bonus. You can equip two tracking computers and switch scripts out for range or tracking, depending on what you're shooting at. Doing that, you get fantastic damage out to damned good range (56km with standard crystals, which is more than enough range and damage to whollop most missions). You can cap boost and targeting computer (sensor res script) to reduce the amount of time you hear that godawful beeping noise while locking.
I also fly a Kronos and it lacks, precisely because it lacks that optimal bonus. Yes I know it gets falloff, and I'll address that, but it's not the same.
Before I even go any further - just think about that for a second. The largest track of guns for sub-caps getting a tracking bonus does so very little because they start with so little tracking to begin with. If you were going to hit a target with the bonus, you'd probably hit it without the bonus anyway. This is opposed to optimal bonuses, which large track guns get a lot of to start with, and benefit greatly from bonuses to. And you still have the primary problem of getting things in range while mobility is a problem for your ship class (especially when, and this cannot be emphasized enough, your special ability is sitting still) - hence optimal being awesome and tracking not so much. Also, the irony here is that tracking bonus only really helps to negate the problem it itself creates by forcing you to fly around to chase down targets, increasing your traversal much of the time until you get a proper line-up on your target to negate traversal. And you know what benefits good flying and negating traversal...optimal bonus! So you can hit the guy out from further away if you're piloting well.
Anyway, I use a Kronos and have to fly it very differently. When flying blasters, you are already at a disadvantage because of their severely limited range. The falloff bonus is appreciated, don't get me wrong, but limited in usefulness for really extending the reach of your punch. Blasters have, what, around 2/3 of the effective range of pulse, and make up for the lack of application by trying to fling more overall DPS at the target? That's sloppy. It works, yes, but the impressive DPS you can get from hybrid weapons doesn't mean much without good application. So that tracking bonus really helps when you have to close the distance to about 3 or 4 KM to apply all that damage, but beyond that it really doesn't help.
MWD is a must with blasters because you have to chase things down and get them into range, which is both tiresome and time-consuming. Most of the time, it's quicker just to eqiup rails and MJD and nail them from afar and a tracking bonus does little to help you there anyway, wheras a Paladin in a similar situation is hitting targets with better ammo precisely because of the optimal bonus.
I like the Kronos, but I just find it is not as versatile as the Paladin. You can get better DPS with a Kronos, but only at knife-fight ranges where you lack the mobility (and mids!) to really keep targets there and make it work.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 10:47:27 -
[58] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:I happen to like the optimal bonus on the Paladin. It allows me to use higher-damaging ammo at longer ranges with both beams and pulse. And tracking has never been an issue for me. But maybe that's because the Paladin IS a different Marauder and needs to be flown differently. When you do so, it is a stellar ship. It is my preferred Marauder.
If tracking is a problem for you, I'd say look at your setups and your flying/combat technique. If using beams against, say, Blood Raiders, a MJD + two tracking computers (optimal range) script is phenomenal. If using pulse against, say, everything else, MWD alone should get you to where you need. With pulse there's a lot of versatility because of the optimal range bonus. You can equip two tracking computers and switch scripts out for range or tracking, depending on what you're shooting at. Doing that, you get fantastic damage out to damned good range (56km with standard crystals, which is more than enough range and damage to whollop most missions). You can cap boost and targeting computer (sensor res script) to reduce the amount of time you hear that godawful beeping noise while locking.
I also fly a Kronos and it lacks, precisely because it lacks that optimal bonus. Yes I know it gets falloff, and I'll address that, but it's not the same.
Before I even go any further - just think about that for a second. The largest track of guns for sub-caps getting a tracking bonus does so very little because they start with so little tracking to begin with. If you were going to hit a target with the bonus, you'd probably hit it without the bonus anyway. This is opposed to optimal, which large track guns get a lot of to start with, and benefit greatly from bonuses to. And you still have the primary problem of getting things in range while mobility is a problem for your ship class (especially when, and this cannot be emphasized enough, your special ability is sitting still) - hence optimal being awesome and tracking not so much. Also, the irony here is that tracking bonus only really helps to negate the problem it itself creates by forcing you to fly around to chase down targets, increasing your traversal much of the time until you get a proper line-up on your target to negate traversal. And you know what benefits good flying and negating traversal...optimal bonus! So you can hit the guy out from further away if you're piloting well.
Anyway, I use a Kronos and have to fly it very differently. When flying blasters, you are already at a disadvantage because of their severely limited range. The falloff bonus is appreciated, don't get me wrong, but limited in usefulness for really extending the reach of your punch. Blasters have, what, around 2/3 of the effective range of pulse, and make up for the lack of application by trying to fling more overall DPS at the target? That's sloppy. It works, yes, but the impressive DPS you can get from hybrid weapons doesn't mean much without good application. So that tracking bonus really helps when you have to close the distance to about 3 or 4 KM to apply all that damage, but beyond that it really doesn't help.
MWD is a must with blasters because you have to chase things down and get them into range, which is both tiresome and time-consuming. Most of the time, it's quicker just to eqiup rails and MJD and nail them from afar and a tracking bonus does little to help you there anyway, wheras a Paladin in a similar situation is hitting targets with better ammo precisely because of the optimal bonus.
I like the Kronos, but I just find it is not as versatile as the Paladin. You can get better DPS with a Kronos, but only at knife-fight ranges where you lack the mobility (and mids!) to really keep targets there and make it work.
I like the Paladins Optimal range bonus as well and I use them all the time running SOE lev 4 missions. But it is almost mandatory to bring a cruiser to hit the little things because if anything smaller than a cruiser gets within 30km of the Paladins, they won't be able to kill them. Whereas the NMs can with tracking speed scripts. The extra tracking you get on the NM using Pulse is definitely noticeable when trying to hit smaller targets within 30km and should be a skill incorporated into the Paladins. It just makes since for the Paladins to have a tracking speed skill in line with the other Marauders rather than being the odd one out and limiting the ship for PVE only. With Tachyons it probably won't make a lot of difference as it is a PVE design weapon that hits targets out at long ranges relying on optimal but for Pulse Paladins it'll make them a viable option as a PVP platform.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
281
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 12:52:33 -
[59] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I like the Paladins Optimal range bonus as well and I use them all the time running SOE lev 4 missions. But it is almost mandatory to bring a cruiser to hit the little things because if anything smaller than a cruiser gets within 30km of the Paladins, they won't be able to kill them. Whereas the NMs can with tracking speed scripts. The extra tracking you get on the NM using Pulse is definitely noticeable when trying to hit smaller targets within 30km and should be a skill incorporated into the Paladins. It just makes since for the Paladins to have a tracking speed skill in line with the other Marauders rather than being the odd one out and limiting the ship for PVE only. With Tachyons it probably won't make a lot of difference as it is a PVE design weapon that hits targets out at long ranges relying on optimal but for Pulse Paladins it'll make them a viable option as a PVP platform.
I don't use Marauders in PvP. I'll admit right now I don't have the sort of cohones or team support to try that. So, tracking bonus to help with PvP would be a good all-around benefit.
As for PvE, when I use Pulse Pally, I don't usually have trouble hitting small targets in close, but that might just be luck and/or the order in which I target things. Because pulse hits out pretty far, I generally hit small things out far, while the large things get in close. Then melt the larger things in close with IN Multi.
But I admit I don't run pulse Pally often, usually because MWD + Tachy seems like such a quick and easy way to do things. But perhaps next time you feel like it, try two tracking comps (tracking script) plus a web, perhaps? Or perhaps instead of web, a painter, since that'll be useful outside of 10km.
One thing I love about Marauders is that there's generous fitting and lots of options!
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 13:44:11 -
[60] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I like the Paladins Optimal range bonus as well and I use them all the time running SOE lev 4 missions. But it is almost mandatory to bring a cruiser to hit the little things because if anything smaller than a cruiser gets within 30km of the Paladins, they won't be able to kill them. Whereas the NMs can with tracking speed scripts. The extra tracking you get on the NM using Pulse is definitely noticeable when trying to hit smaller targets within 30km and should be a skill incorporated into the Paladins. It just makes since for the Paladins to have a tracking speed skill in line with the other Marauders rather than being the odd one out and limiting the ship for PVE only. With Tachyons it probably won't make a lot of difference as it is a PVE design weapon that hits targets out at long ranges relying on optimal but for Pulse Paladins it'll make them a viable option as a PVP platform.
I don't use Marauders in PvP. I'll admit right now I don't have the sort of cohones or team support to try that. So, tracking bonus to help with PvP would be a good all-around benefit. As for PvE, when I use Pulse Pally, I don't usually have trouble hitting small targets in close, but that might just be luck and/or the order in which I target things. Because pulse hits out pretty far, I generally hit small things out far, while the large things get in close. Then melt the larger things in close with IN Multi. But I admit I don't run pulse Pally often, usually because MWD + Tachy seems like such a quick and easy way to do things. But perhaps next time you feel like it, try two tracking comps (tracking script) plus a web, perhaps? Or perhaps instead of web, a painter, since that'll be useful outside of 10km. One thing I love about Marauders is that there's generous fitting and lots of options!
Is the MWD a better option than the MJD for a Tach Pally running Lev 4 missions or do you use both of them?
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
284
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:12:57 -
[61] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Is the MWD a better option than the MJD for a Tach Pally running Lev 4 missions or do you use both of them?
If you're running Tachy, I'd say MJD is all you need. Land in a pocket. if everything is far away, nuke it. If everything is close, MJD, then nuke it.
The only tricky part about MJD is positioning to make sure you can get to the next gate. If there's a gate, say, 50km away from where you enter a pocket, you can MJD at an almost perpendicular angle to the gate, which will land you close to 100km away from it. Next jump gets you to the gate within it's sphere of influence. That way, another prop mod is almost never needed. Almost. Depending on range, you have to change the relative angle of the first jump. It's an art, not a science, until CCP sees fit to give us protractors and range rules in that Tactical overlay (boy wouldn't that be nice?).
Edit: Fixed a typo in the post you quoted. I meant to say MJD + Tachy, and I accidentally wrote MWD + Tachy. That's fixed now.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Sandrilla Sastrum
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 02:09:37 -
[62] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
Don't give CCP any ideas. EWAR immunity is one of the primary reasons to use a Marauder. If they take that away, they'd have to give them something massive in return precisely because you'd be right, they would be garbage. Like maybe a very heavy mobility bonus, cap recharge supercharge, or something.
I'd take Cap Warfare Immunity over Ewar Immunity any day of the week.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
347
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 06:06:46 -
[63] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
Don't give CCP any ideas. EWAR immunity is one of the primary reasons to use a Marauder. If they take that away, they'd have to give them something massive in return precisely because you'd be right, they would be garbage. Like maybe a very heavy mobility bonus, cap recharge supercharge, or something. I'd take Cap Warfare Immunity over Ewar Immunity any day of the week.
I'd settle for getting the 90% webs back. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:08:07 -
[64] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:If they take Ewar immunity away from Bastion then the Marauders would be garbage and relegated into plain overpriced lev 4 mission boats.
Don't give CCP any ideas. EWAR immunity is one of the primary reasons to use a Marauder. If they take that away, they'd have to give them something massive in return precisely because you'd be right, they would be garbage. Like maybe a very heavy mobility bonus, cap recharge supercharge, or something. I'd take Cap Warfare Immunity over Ewar Immunity any day of the week. I'd settle for getting the 90% webs back.
You guys need to screw your heads on tighter if you think that cap immunity or 90% web makes up for ewar immunity. You're immune to ECM, tracking disrupt, sensor damps, (soon to be missile disrupt), and everything else.
Did you guys fly these things before Bastion? They were miserable specifically because of ewar. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 22:59:41 -
[65] - Quote
Don't like them in current iteration at all self tackling stand still marauding is a joke.
If anything would like to see bastion modules have some assault variants that do not make you stop ship give decent sensor boost,speed agility stuff like that so you can use ship in less redicilous way.
Krone need it Web back they all need their w speed buffed a tad 2.5_2.7au. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
284
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 02:03:17 -
[66] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:You guys need to screw your heads on tighter if you think that cap immunity or 90% web makes up for ewar immunity. You're immune to ECM, tracking disrupt, sensor damps, (soon to be missile disrupt), and everything else.
Did you guys fly these things before Bastion? They were miserable specifically because of ewar.
Thank you. To use a quick analogy, right now marauders are like Achilles. Incredibly resilient and powerful with one potent, of course, Achilles' heel. These people are saying they'd rather give up all that resiliency to have an armored heel.
I don't even understand the clamor for 90% webs on a Marauder. It's a battleship; if you're going to have the manual flying skill and prowess to chase down targets in a battleship and actually catch them, you never needed the 90% webs to begin with.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Stephanie Rosefire
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 15:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess.
can only field 1 heavy drone on a paladin... |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:22:16 -
[68] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess. can only field 1 heavy drone on a paladin...
I find that odd myself. Pali should be able to field a full flight of medium drones. Oddly enough, the Vargur can, but not the Pali?
I will note, I'm going off your statement and am not fully aware of the Paladin's drone capability. However, if it can only field 1 heavy, that's less than the Vargur, which is just wrong... |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
162
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:44:27 -
[69] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Stephanie Rosefire wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess. can only field 1 heavy drone on a paladin... I find that odd myself. Pali should be able to field a full flight of medium drones. Oddly enough, the Vargur can, but not the Pali? I will note, I'm going off your statement and am not fully aware of the Paladin's drone capability. However, if it can only field 1 heavy, that's less than the Vargur, which is just wrong...
it is same for Golem Golem has only 25MB bandwidth
this, T1/Navy Caldari BS has better dps for Poco bashing than Golem. |
Firestorm Delta
Aphotic Machina
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:40:47 -
[70] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Stephanie Rosefire wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess. can only field 1 heavy drone on a paladin... I find that odd myself. Pali should be able to field a full flight of medium drones. Oddly enough, the Vargur can, but not the Pali? I will note, I'm going off your statement and am not fully aware of the Paladin's drone capability. However, if it can only field 1 heavy, that's less than the Vargur, which is just wrong... it is same for Golem Golem has only 25MB bandwidth this, T1/Navy Caldari BS has better dps for Poco bashing than Golem.
Caldari ships aren't supposed to be drone boats so it makes more sense for the Golem. The Paladin on the other hand should have better drones than the Vargur.
Also not sure that having 1 to 2 more heavy drones is really "better" dps against a Poco unless you'd prefer to use a rokh for Poco bashing since all the Raven variants have the exact same number of effective launchers more or less.
Of course not sure why you'd use a T2 to Poco bash anyway. |
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
162
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 02:07:03 -
[71] - Quote
Firestorm Delta wrote:unidenify wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Stephanie Rosefire wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.
I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).
Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.
.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess. can only field 1 heavy drone on a paladin... I find that odd myself. Pali should be able to field a full flight of medium drones. Oddly enough, the Vargur can, but not the Pali? I will note, I'm going off your statement and am not fully aware of the Paladin's drone capability. However, if it can only field 1 heavy, that's less than the Vargur, which is just wrong... it is same for Golem Golem has only 25MB bandwidth this, T1/Navy Caldari BS has better dps for Poco bashing than Golem. Caldari ships aren't supposed to be drone boats so it makes more sense for the Golem. The Paladin on the other hand should have better drones than the Vargur. Also not sure that having 1 to 2 more heavy drones is really "better" dps against a Poco unless you'd prefer to use a rokh for Poco bashing since all the Raven variants have the exact same number of effective launchers more or less. Of course not sure why you'd use a T2 to Poco bash anyway.
SNI, RNI and Raven have 5 low slot so, they can have 4 BCS + 1 Drone Amp plus RNI + SNI have 75 MB which let them have 3 heavy drone. SO overall, they will do about 120-130 dps more over Golem and being much more cheaper.
Of course, it don't mean they are best Poco bashing though
whole point of Marauder is that they has strongest tank for sub-cap, and best damage application for BS weapon. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
999
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 00:05:21 -
[72] - Quote
unidenify wrote:
SNI, RNI and Raven have 5 low slot so, they can have 4 BCS + 1 Drone Amp plus RNI + SNI have 75 MB which let them have 3 heavy drone. SO overall, they will do about 120-130 dps more over Golem and being much more cheaper.
Of course, it don't mean they are best Poco bashing though
whole point of Marauder is that they has strongest tank for sub-cap, and best damage application for BS weapon.
You might also note that Marauders are also immune to ewar when in bastion.
THis could be quite powerful when bashing POS structures heavy on ewar. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
335
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 02:10:24 -
[73] - Quote
yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
999
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 02:23:55 -
[74] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming.
Marauder dps isn't supposed to be that high.. They have massive tank, good application, insane range, MJD cool down bonus, and wear immunity in bastion. Not to mention the use of 4 guns, which is beneficial to cap and ammo consumption.
That being said, you can still pull off 1700 dps in a Kronos, 1300 or more in a Golem with better application and range, and I have no idea what the Pali and Vargur are capable of, but it's no joke either.
However, the Pali, I feel, is in the weaker position of the 4. I think upping the drone bandwidth to allow for 3-4 heavies to be launched would be quite helpful. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
162
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 04:54:57 -
[75] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming.
100% of 1300 > 80% of 1500
Then there is range bonus as well |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
335
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 08:33:52 -
[76] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming. 100% of 1300 > 80% of 1500 Then there is range bonus as well
the range is fine in bastion. I don't have an issue with it. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
335
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 08:39:10 -
[77] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming. Marauder dps isn't supposed to be that high.. They have massive tank, good application, insane range, MJD cool down bonus, and wear immunity in bastion. Not to mention the use of 4 guns, which is beneficial to cap and ammo consumption. That being said, you can still pull off 1700 dps in a Kronos, 1300 or more in a Golem with better application and range, and I have no idea what the Pali and Vargur are capable of, but it's no joke either. However, the Pali, I feel, is in the weaker position of the 4. I think upping the drone bandwidth to allow for 3-4 heavies to be launched would be quite helpful.
Vargur will top out around 1K dps Pali similar to kronos at around 1200 -> 1300 with pulse and conflag
1,700 with kronos? overheated with 4x mag stabs and void? Unrealistic fit but ok.
right now with 2x magstab and marauders 4 I do around 1200 dps on kronos with void...more overheated but still underwhelming considering how vulnerable it is to neuts in general. Rattlers for PVE are less vulnerable since missiles and drones don't use cap and you can passive fit the tank.
Again in PVP (my main concern) is vulnerability to neuts exceeds all other ecm invuln benefits in bastion since cap warfare happens in or out.
If they are mini dreads then give them mini dread cap levels. The paladin comes close at 11K cap (which is a huge amount) but one Bhaalgorn and you're dry in just over 1 full set of neuts on you. I dunno its a hard balance but maybe with the spring cap redux we'll see marauders get new life since dreads won't be 2 shotting them in bastion any more. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
999
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:39:38 -
[78] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming. Marauder dps isn't supposed to be that high.. They have massive tank, good application, insane range, MJD cool down bonus, and wear immunity in bastion. Not to mention the use of 4 guns, which is beneficial to cap and ammo consumption. That being said, you can still pull off 1700 dps in a Kronos, 1300 or more in a Golem with better application and range, and I have no idea what the Pali and Vargur are capable of, but it's no joke either. However, the Pali, I feel, is in the weaker position of the 4. I think upping the drone bandwidth to allow for 3-4 heavies to be launched would be quite helpful. Vargur will top out around 1K dps Pali similar to kronos at around 1200 -> 1300 with pulse and conflag 1,700 with kronos? overheated with 4x mag stabs and void? Unrealistic fit but ok. right now with 2x magstab and marauders 4 I do around 1200 dps on kronos with void...more overheated but still underwhelming considering how vulnerable it is to neuts in general. Rattlers for PVE are less vulnerable since missiles and drones don't use cap and you can passive fit the tank. Again in PVP (my main concern) is vulnerability to neuts exceeds all other ecm invuln benefits in bastion since cap warfare happens in or out. If they are mini dreads then give them mini dread cap levels. The paladin comes close at 11K cap (which is a huge amount) but one Bhaalgorn and you're dry in just over 1 full set of neuts on you. I dunno its a hard balance but maybe with the spring cap redux we'll see marauders get new life since dreads won't be 2 shotting them in bastion any more.
Pali and Kronos have always been more susceptible to cap warfare. As a matter of fact, all but missile and drone boats in their entire ship line up suffer from that issue.
I don't see why it's such a major concern with Marauders, yet the same problem on any other laser or hybrid ship isn't an issue? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1963
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:34:28 -
[79] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Pali and Kronos have always been more susceptible to cap warfare. As a matter of fact, all but missile and drone boats in their entire ship line up suffer from that issue.
I don't see why it's such a major concern with Marauders, yet the same problem on any other laser or hybrid ship isn't an issue?
Good post, Joe. That's your 1000th "like."
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
162
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 18:37:16 -
[80] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Justin Cody wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Justin Cody wrote:yeah but their dps should be higher like...rattlesnake level 1300->1500. Right now it is underwhelming. Marauder dps isn't supposed to be that high.. They have massive tank, good application, insane range, MJD cool down bonus, and wear immunity in bastion. Not to mention the use of 4 guns, which is beneficial to cap and ammo consumption. That being said, you can still pull off 1700 dps in a Kronos, 1300 or more in a Golem with better application and range, and I have no idea what the Pali and Vargur are capable of, but it's no joke either. However, the Pali, I feel, is in the weaker position of the 4. I think upping the drone bandwidth to allow for 3-4 heavies to be launched would be quite helpful. Vargur will top out around 1K dps Pali similar to kronos at around 1200 -> 1300 with pulse and conflag 1,700 with kronos? overheated with 4x mag stabs and void? Unrealistic fit but ok. right now with 2x magstab and marauders 4 I do around 1200 dps on kronos with void...more overheated but still underwhelming considering how vulnerable it is to neuts in general. Rattlers for PVE are less vulnerable since missiles and drones don't use cap and you can passive fit the tank. Again in PVP (my main concern) is vulnerability to neuts exceeds all other ecm invuln benefits in bastion since cap warfare happens in or out. If they are mini dreads then give them mini dread cap levels. The paladin comes close at 11K cap (which is a huge amount) but one Bhaalgorn and you're dry in just over 1 full set of neuts on you. I dunno its a hard balance but maybe with the spring cap redux we'll see marauders get new life since dreads won't be 2 shotting them in bastion any more. Pali and Kronos have always been more susceptible to cap warfare. As a matter of fact, all but missile and drone boats in their entire ship line up suffer from that issue. I don't see why it's such a major concern with Marauders, yet the same problem on any other laser or hybrid ship isn't an issue?
I guess he feel there are issue with armour Marauder because shield Marauder has advantage of ASB + capless weapon to avoid Neut issue. |
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
507
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 18:37:38 -
[81] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=Justin Cody] That being said, you can still pull off 1700 dps in a Kronos, 1300 or more in a Golem with better application and range, and I have no idea what the Pali and Vargur are capable of, but it's no joke either.
Pulse paladin can hit a bit over 1300 DPS with conflag 1400 Vargur is a bit under a 1400 Mach (But the vargur will out track a Mach any day).
Note: This is from a shield incursion POV
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
1000
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 22:38:59 -
[82] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Pali and Kronos have always been more susceptible to cap warfare. As a matter of fact, all but missile and drone boats in their entire ship line up suffer from that issue.
I don't see why it's such a major concern with Marauders, yet the same problem on any other laser or hybrid ship isn't an issue?
Good post, Joe. That's your 1000th "like."
Woot!!! |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
1002
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 23:56:01 -
[83] - Quote
unidenify wrote:
I guess he feel there are issue with armour Marauder because shield Marauder has advantage of ASB + capless weapon to avoid Neut issue.
[Golem, test RHML] Damage Control II Federation Navy Co-Processor Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Warp Disruptor II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Stasis Webifier II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Large Micro Jump Drive
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Bastion Module I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
4600 EHP/s - 87,663 EHP 865 DPS - 584 DPS with reload Not enough remaining CPU for even a single small NOS or NEUT Cap Stable (Damage selection, but not a good option due to reload time)
[Vargur, test] Federation Navy Co-Processor Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Large Micro Jump Drive X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Hail L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Hail L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Hail L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Hail L Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II [empty high slot] Bastion Module I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
4100 EHP/s - 80,692 EHP 980 DPS - 955 with reload Cap Stable (Damage selection, but at significantly reduced DPS)
[Kronos, test] Large Armor Repairer II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II 1600mm Steel Plates II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Medium Nosferatu II Medium Nosferatu II Medium Nosferatu II Bastion Module I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
2178 EHP/s - 131, 614 EHP 1114 DPS - 1099 with reload Stable with booster and NOS all running (this is unlikely, so 2min 10sec without boosts or NOS) (can drop a plate and put another Mag stab if preferred, giving 113,202 EHP and 1252 DPS) Much more cap dependent, but significantly more DPS and EHP
[Paladin, test] Large Armor Repairer II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II 1600mm Steel Plates II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Medium Nosferatu II Small Nosferatu II [empty high slot] Bastion Module I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
1867 EHP/s - 121,233 EHP 1005 DPS - no reload 2min 32 sec of cap without boosts or NOS. Stable @ 46% with. Swap out a 1600 for another heat sink, get 104,848 EHP and 1099 DPS
So, with the armor boats you get more DPS, ewar, and EHP, but cap dependent and range. With shield you get more active tank, cap stability, and range, but have less EHP and damage.
You'll also notice that the Golem is extremely reliant of burst DPS, so it's only good for 25 volleys, then it's a useless brick for 35 seconds. The Vargur does have damage selection, but loses a lot of DPS is doing so, and also spends pretty much all of it's time fighting in fall off.
I will say though, the Kronos, Golem, and Pali could use a bit of love in comparison to the Vargur, or the Vargur needs a slight fitting nerf to balance it out.
EDIT... On second thought, I think they're fairly well balanced, as you also have to consider that the Vargur needs 3 CPU modules to make that fit work. |
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