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Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.11.23 07:30:09 -
[1] - Quote
For almost all in-space activities, you can always bring a bigger ship as you wish. I'm not saying bigger ships are always better for any given situation, but one almost always has this option open.
Need more DPS bashing that POS? Well ditch the frig and bring a Captal. The same with logi and e-war...and even hauling stuff around the space.
However, when you look at the mining ships they are capped at the mid sized mining barges. Once you reach exhumers, the only way to scale up is to go horizontal, i.e.; bring more barges. So in that sense, miners have very limited options available to them compared to other DPS/Logi/Ewar people. This makes my Killboard very boring to look at. Procurer, procurer, procurer, oh look a retriever, procurer, skiff, procurer, ooh a venture, procurer...meh
Now, the introduction of Venture and Prophecy addressed this issue but in the noob direction : small mining frigs. Why not go the other way, too? Let's have a BS sized mining ships. Give it an internal ore compression chamber or more tank or whatever.. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
287
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Posted - 2015.11.23 07:56:43 -
[2] - Quote
If you introduce larger mining vessels, by necessity they'd have to mine more (as opposed to just holding more), as an increase of any other trait simply doesn't make sense*. More mining = tanking mineral prices. Minerals are already pretty cheap and pouring more onto an already saturated marked will make larger vessels a necessity rather than an option, because you'll have to mine more to make up for the deflated prices.
*More tank is insane, considering the tank you can already get on a skiff is larger than many comparable vessels (close to 100k properly fitted). More range isn't necessary nor all that helpful beyond current levels. More speed isn't needed (hence: barge!), nor would it make sense for a larger vessel to have more mobility. More capacity is sort of unnecessary as there's dozens and dozens of tools an options at a miner's disposal to hold or move more ore. Yield I already addressed. So what's left? Internal ore compression is similar to capacity - largely unnecessary since capacity isn't an issue.
I'm open to hearing ideas about this, but it would help you came forward with something else.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Aluanna
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.11.23 08:52:57 -
[3] - Quote
How about a ship that can mine about the same as current barges, but can drag asteroids towards one point? or just has a longer base range?
I realize that more range isn't always needed, but assuming you don't have a full on mining fleet it could be useful.
It's not so much an upgrade as it is a niche sidestep..
but hey, I don't mine, so I wouldn't know |
Anthar Thebess
1378
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Posted - 2015.11.23 09:18:46 -
[4] - Quote
Mount mining lasers on titan and mine! People did this many times. Put full rack of harvester mining drones on a carrier , and go to belt.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Iain Cariaba
2035
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Posted - 2015.11.23 10:01:17 -
[5] - Quote
Aluanna wrote:I realize that more range isn't always needed, but assuming you don't have a full on mining fleet it could be useful. You don't need range, you just need some planning. Slap a MWD on a cheap frig with nanos and overdives, make yourself a few bookmarks before undocking the barge. A handfull of bookmarks spread slightly under 2x mining beam range and one 150+km bounce point is all you need, and just takes a few minutes to setup. I've stripped belts entirely out of high grade ore without ever slow-boating the exhumer.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
158
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Posted - 2015.11.23 10:20:33 -
[6] - Quote
I love how the general response to a BS + sized mining ship is - if you have a bigger ship, it will have to have a higher yeild and that will tank mineral prices
Looking fast at the market - trit runs from 4-7 ISK with the average price for trade hubs at 6+ ISK. Nearly 3 years ago trit ran 3-6 ISK.
A bigger ship - yes would have some effect in market prices, but these people saying it would tank the market need to stop riding in that one trick pony. EVE is player controlled - a properly balance BS mining ship (even if it's base states where the three exhumers combined) would not effect the market that much. Specially if the price of the hull was 750-1000 million ISK. Code and goons plus other hi-sec flower children would swarm and gang **** everyone of these they found in a belt. So the number of these ships would hopefully remain in check through one game function or another.
It isn't like every player, his granny and old dog will have 10 of these in space all day every day.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
652
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Posted - 2015.11.23 12:55:52 -
[7] - Quote
The guy just worried about his KB and nothing to do with mining as a whole.
I would recommend hom to go and dunk some Freighters or Orcas. But it's still meh. |
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
218
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Posted - 2015.11.23 13:48:12 -
[8] - Quote
what mining needs in my opinion and i am not a miner but i think i can safely say this. is a reason to bring the rorqual in a belt, i don't say it has to be an active miner obviously it needs to be there for support and compressing and storing ore aswell as repair ships and help in combat situations (be it PVP or PVE) i dont mind if it also mines in the process.
but as it is now the rorqual would be nice bait and people will kill it, so the rorqual and in extend the orca needs an overhaul. If i am not mistaken that will happen at some point but how and when is still not sure.
just a bigger mining ship is not something i see would benefit EVE
also i think that miners should get a destroyer with bonus to mining links as there will be combat variants of the commandships in destroyer size, i think it is only honest to give miners something equally good
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
910
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Posted - 2015.11.23 15:55:34 -
[9] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:...Minerals are already pretty cheap....
Hu??
I am sorry but what? The baseprice of tritanium is 1 isk not 9348590758265 bajillion and don't tell me about a "player" driven market. This "market" that you would refer to is more of a monkey-bot driven nut house. The greed of the Ferengi knows no end. No wonder that ships are 2-3 fold of their baseprices.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Feledain
Elmsfeuer
65
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Posted - 2015.11.23 16:08:05 -
[10] - Quote
Sounds to me that we could make an "ORE Marauder". "Weapon System" bonus would be for normal Mining lasers (because it looks cool), 6 of em and 2 utility highs. Yield about the same as the other barges. Big Ore hold, reasonable tank. "Bastion" module for range. Slots and PG/CPU for fun fits, like MJD/MWD, ECM or something. Rubbish base speed.
Modifications to this brainfart are welcome. |
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Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.23 16:30:15 -
[11] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:what mining needs in my opinion and i am not a miner but i think i can safely say this. is a reason to bring the rorqual in a belt, i don't say it has to be an active miner obviously it needs to be there for support and compressing and storing ore aswell as repair ships and help in combat situations (be it PVP or PVE) i dont mind if it also mines in the process.
No.... the rorqual isn't really needed/wanted in a Belt. People say that is what is wanted, but you already brought it up:
Ellendras Silver wrote:but as it is now the rorqual would be nice bait and people will kill it, so the rorqual and in extend the orca needs an overhaul. If i am not mistaken that will happen at some point but how and when is still not sure.
Yup. Back in what? 2014 they said they would look at changing the Rorqual. Today being just over 30 days before 2016 and, still waiting?
Miners don't need "just a bigger mining ship". In the end mining itself could use some kind of change in order to help bring things into a new reality. Obviously we have people who don't dedicate their lives to mining in highsec/null, and that's great. Others might be set in building their vast industry empires. Those are the people who see the same issues over, and over with the system in its current format.
Max Hulk + Max Rorq = Max profit for 1 hulk. No more profit can be squeezed out of this 1 character, even if you mine 23 hours a day, 7 days a week. So how do you increase your ISK? You get more miners. You get a hauler, to move your ore to allow your miners to mine in belt(because a 2 mil Miasmos is far cheaper than a 2 bil Rorq in your belt).
(tinfoil hat math time folks) You change from 1 character, to 10 toons, now instead of 20 mil/hour your pulling 200 mil an hour. So would it not be more fair to the "casual eve player", the want to be industry character, or the advanced indy toon, to have similar stages. So while I understand OP's topic, and intent, is bigger ships the way to change this precident? I'm not so sure.
PVP Players want those dank Rorqual killmails and soon kill marks on their ships as much as their want Hulkaggeddon. But what does moving the rorq to a belt change other than how miners mine.
Industry players strive to reach personal "training/skillplan goals" just like everyone else. But for the PVP pilot, there are so many options of "bigger, better ships" than my Rifter and Bantam to fly.
A miner's perspective of mining in new eden(please keep hats on for the ride)
The miner starts now, with his Civvy mining laser, than goes to a Venture, elevating to a Prospect, or soon the Ice Frig. Learning the ways of the Ore, possibly even following the CODE. Soon they get their first barge, and the adventure takes some more roids out of the way for the haulers and pvpers to fly through space, keeping it clean of the evil ROID trash that litters New Eden, seemingly ignored by those capsuleers who want to just wage war on eachother. Now in an exhumer, with specialized crystals tuned to the frequencies needed to remove that litter at best value, they find they have reached their peak. They turn to their capital ship line to realize, it does nothing more than provide a bonus to its fellow miners. So now they sit in their hulk/skiff/mackinaw helping do the work so many devalue, and removing the trash with no further progress. Wanting to make more money and feel a stronger connection to New Eden, they turn to their fellow capsuleers for some advice on changes. They say the same rhetoric: stop mining, rat or pvp; run incursions or missions.
CCPlz; Stop speaking about "we will fix the rorq" and do something
Capsuleers PLZ: Stop trying to speak about how "bigger mining ships isn't better" because I'd rather mine in 1 ship than 5. Just like you would rather rat in a carrier than an ishtar, or fly a t2 _____ / t3 ______ (insert ship type) than a t1.
When SOMEONE from either side comes up with a decent solution I'll be all for it, but while I have yet to find a ammecable solution that would benefit the playerbase as a whole and not hurt any one part of the community. I'll pray someone with more imagination than I, can suggest a decent proposal.
Until than. Fly safe o7
PS: Long live the battle Skiff! |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
396
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Posted - 2015.11.23 16:58:15 -
[12] - Quote
Hmmmm.. This is a tough one. Why use 5 account to mine when you would have 1 toon in a ship with 5 x the yield? Then why not have 5 toons getting 5x the yield each?
Put it this way. If I'm null bearing, I will max out the toons I have with the best ships I have. Let's say I have 5 toons. I can get 5 carriers going. But 1 should be more than enough for anyone right? Takes no time and little attention to deal with 5, so might as well rake in that isk.
N+1 easy lesson.
The cake is not a lie. Unfortunately, the fork is a parallel construction.
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Darth Squeemus
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2015.11.23 17:11:25 -
[13] - Quote
Fat Buddah wrote:This makes my Killboard very boring to look at.
If you want something other than barges on your kb, go engage something that actually shoots back. Nobody here give a damn about you kb, dude.
-1
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Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.23 17:13:34 -
[14] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:Hmmmm.. This is a tough one. Why use 5 account to mine when you would have 1 toon in a ship with 5 x the yield? Then why not have 5 toons getting 5x the yield each?
Put it this way. If I'm null bearing, I will max out the toons I have with the best ships I have. Let's say I have 5 toons. I can get 5 carriers going. But 1 should be more than enough for anyone right? Takes no time and little attention to deal with 5, so might as well rake in that isk.
N+1 easy lesson.
I'm not disagreeing... and this is again my other ulterior point: Mining needs a once over
Just remember: there is no spoon |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
20
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Posted - 2015.11.23 17:16:28 -
[15] - Quote
Because miners don't want a bigger ships. They want more yield and ore capacity. And CCP please (please, please,pretty please, with cherry on top) give them ability to reprocess and to sold ore in a belt. And no matter what toy miners get they will always demand more. |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:18:17 -
[16] - Quote
BS sized mining ship was the first idea that came to mind but I am open to better ideas. The part about KB was for a joke so just ignore that. However I stand with my opening post that the miners have very limited options in terms of their ships and modules directly related to their mining yields. As a pvp pilot I fly a vast range of ships with even wider choices of modules. It just seems unfair. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2839
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:39:44 -
[17] - Quote
People are guessing it will yield more because there is no concrete proposal in this thread other than 'give me bigger ships just because'.
Come up with a concrete proposal. Tell us what it does, how it does it and why we'd benefit from its existence.
edit, when you say miners have limited options, no they dont. They have all the options they need. Not to mention your proposal says nothing about what this bigger ship will do...how is that an option?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1103
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:46:16 -
[18] - Quote
Mining doesn't include enough variables to support a lot of unique roles, so it is somewhat difficult to make a bigger mining ship without obsoleting the existing mining ships.
And anyway, there's simply no need for them. The existing mining ships do an entirely adequate job for meeting mineral demand.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
396
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:48:50 -
[19] - Quote
Whoops, forgot I did support bigger mining ships, just not bigger yields
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5410827#post5410827
The cake is not a lie. Unfortunately, the fork is a parallel construction.
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Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:52:45 -
[20] - Quote
Fat Buddah wrote:BS sized mining ship was the first idea that came to mind but I am open to better ideas. The part about KB was for a joke so just ignore that. However I stand with my opening post that the miners have very limited options in terms of their ships and modules directly related to their mining yields. As a pvp pilot I fly a vast range of ships with even wider choices of modules. It just seems unfair.
Why? Its perfectly fair... I mean just look at this data showing proof that less than 1% of people who log in mine: Eve Market Data(2015)
2 Capital strip miners on the Rorqual, 1 on Orca , 5k m3 without crystals, add an appropriate bonus with. Not impacted by boosts.
Won't pull in mass ore people want... but hey 6km3 off a ship that was previously getting 0m3 per minute is better than nothing....
Just another idea....not a very good one.. but an idea.. |
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Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 18:02:24 -
[21] - Quote
Avatar Moon wrote:
2 Capital strip miners on the Rorqual, 1 on Orca , 5k m3 without crystals, add an appropriate bonus with. Not impacted by boosts.
Won't pull in mass ore people want... but hey 6km3 off a ship that was previously getting 0m3 per minute is better than nothing....
Just another idea....not a very good one.. but an idea..
inb4 "more yield"
I was merely trying to propose an idea of using a big ship to still mine... the ore yield in my mind should be NO MORE than .01%-1% increase of hulk...
Its just a different/bigger/longer skill plan to fly said ship... for same purpose... for no other reason than.... its a different ship.... |
Supreme Authority
Domunation High Command AII ShaII Perish
4
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Posted - 2015.11.23 20:50:05 -
[22] - Quote
Avatar Moon wrote:Fat Buddah wrote:BS sized mining ship was the first idea that came to mind but I am open to better ideas. The part about KB was for a joke so just ignore that. However I stand with my opening post that the miners have very limited options in terms of their ships and modules directly related to their mining yields. As a pvp pilot I fly a vast range of ships with even wider choices of modules. It just seems unfair. Why? Its perfectly fair... I mean just look at this data showing proof that less than 1% of people who log in mine: Eve Market Data(2015)
Actually, this shows 22.4% of people who login mine. |
Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 02:48:33 -
[23] - Quote
So you mean... *gasp*
MINING IS SOMETHING EVE PLAYERS REALLY DO?
Maybe we should look at it... from you know... a player standpoint? |
Iain Cariaba
2045
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 04:05:02 -
[24] - Quote
Avatar Moon wrote:So you mean... *gasp* MINING IS SOMETHING EVE PLAYERS REALLY DO? Maybe we should look at it... from you know... a player standpoint? They did. They gave you small, nimble mining ships for ninja mining, a couple mining ships with insane tank, a couple with massive ore holds, and a couple with high yields.
In other words, they gave options to the players.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
136
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Posted - 2015.11.24 09:17:49 -
[25] - Quote
Still vote 4 Mining Titan which makes all Minerals in 50 km radius into ore in cans and have up to 7 Capital Tractorbeams with 1000% bonus on velocity.
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Bobcat Wolvarine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.11.25 06:15:53 -
[26] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:Still vote 4 Mining Titan which makes all Minerals in 50 km radius into ore in cans and have up to 7 Capital Tractorbeams with 1000% bonus on velocity.
a velocity bonus like that would have to do damage to whatever it hits.
i support this notion. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
162
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Posted - 2015.11.25 06:35:15 -
[27] - Quote
I have crazy idea
Large Mining Barge Have moderate Ore hold (15-20K) Have lowest EHP when compare to Exhumer Can only deploy 5 light drone at time 3 Strip Miner with no yield/duration bonus, and it has longest range. Have Jump Capable
Basically, it is jack of all trade and Master of none
its only advantage is that it can jump to cyno. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 07:44:25 -
[28] - Quote
This thread is still going!!!!
Okay - as I used to mine and do a little here and there I will reap piracy this again -
Current issues/ideas to improve it 1: I don't want to say there is a lack of options, but 8(9) ship hulls that have bonuses to mining are a far smaller grouped compared to other 200(?) combat/support hulls. 2: The new expidetion frigates, though not a full on threat to barges/exhumers, share many of the same variables. Mostly in ore hold size. 3: Lack of logic in ship size and benefits (I know EVE doesn't run on logic). But a frigate that has a mass of 25k and three veriations with each one getting bigger ore bays, doesn't make much sense. I would have loved to see standard 5km3 ore bays with an automated compression system built in on the t2 versions. 4: Mining boosting ships - I have already argued for a destroyer/battle cruiser set up - with the point being these two classes of ships would provide boost as well as on grid boost. 5: With the addition of new sub-capital boosters, the Orca and Rorqual get total over hauls. What that would mean, I have no clue. But, I fill that both need built in compression, sizable ore holds to support fleets, larger on grid combat support purposes and so much more. 6: Ether one multipurpose large scan mining ship or three versions with each one built for each aspect (ore, ice, or gas) of mining. These ships should be the end of the line ship for hard core miners/industrialist. Yet, they need to have a price tag that prohibits everyone and their grandmother from flying them like t1 frigates. 5-7.5k m3 yield, 50-75k m3 ore bay and a 75-125k tank with a price that starts at like 750 million. I feel that is balance - plus nice km for km whores.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2736
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 08:53:39 -
[29] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:If you introduce larger mining vessels, by necessity they'd have to mine more (as opposed to just holding more), as an increase of any other trait simply doesn't make sense*. That's not true at all. People would happily fly a battleship-sized barge if it had Procurer-level defense/offense, Retriever-level ore storage, and slightly less than Covetor-level mining output. There is a lot of room to scale barges up in ways other than mining output.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Iain Cariaba
2062
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 09:34:38 -
[30] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:This thread is still going!!!!
Okay - as I used to mine and do a little here and there I will reap piracy this again -
Current issues/ideas to improve it 1: I don't want to say there is a lack of options, but 8(9) ship hulls that have bonuses to mining are a far smaller grouped compared to other 200(?) combat/support hulls. 2: The new expidetion frigates, though not a full on threat to barges/exhumers, share many of the same variables. Mostly in ore hold size. 3: Lack of logic in ship size and benefits (I know EVE doesn't run on logic). But a frigate that has a mass of 25k and three veriations with each one getting bigger ore bays, doesn't make much sense. I would have loved to see standard 5km3 ore bays with an automated compression system built in on the t2 versions. 4: Mining boosting ships - I have already argued for a destroyer/battle cruiser set up - with the point being these two classes of ships would provide boost as well as on grid boost. 5: With the addition of new sub-capital boosters, the Orca and Rorqual get total over hauls. What that would mean, I have no clue. But, I fill that both need built in compression, sizable ore holds to support fleets, larger on grid combat support purposes and so much more. 6: Ether one multipurpose large scan mining ship or three versions with each one built for each aspect (ore, ice, or gas) of mining. These ships should be the end of the line ship for hard core miners/industrialist. Yet, they need to have a price tag that prohibits everyone and their grandmother from flying them like t1 frigates. 5-7.5k m3 yield, 50-75k m3 ore bay and a 75-125k tank with a price that starts at like 750 million. I feel that is balance - plus nice km for km whores. 1. There's a small handfull of ships bonused for probing. There's a small handfull of ships bonused for ewar. There's a small handfull of ships bonused for remote reps. There's a small handfull of ships bonused for boosts. Et cetera. Mining is not alone in that there's only a small handfull of ships bonused for it. 2. Mining frigates have their purpose, same as barges. Venture is low entry requirements while still being useful, Prospect is sneaky, the new one is for the frig only shattered wormholes. 3. The change in hold sizes can be explained with higher grade tech used in the hold, much as the exhumers have larger ore holds despite being the same size as t1 barges. No to the automated compression, however. EvE needs less automation, not more, specially in a field already prone to AFK play style. 4. I would have loved a desty sized ship for mining boosts back when I was still willing to mine. 5. Again, no to the automated compression, however. EvE needs less automation, not more, specially in a field already prone to AFK play style. 6. As far as the ship siggestion in this item, hell no. You're suggesting a ship that outperforms every other mining ship in every category. I can earn the price of that hull in highsec, in a week, flying a Worm, using a 3 day old character. You don't understand how little price actually impacts what people fly. Google "Eve Online ALOD" and see how many people fit multi-billion isk officer modules onto battleships.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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