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Stephanie Rosefire
Super Squirrel Omni Jump League
55
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Posted - 2015.11.25 13:59:08 -
[1] - Quote
This game is in desperate need of isk sinks. more and more people have nothing to spend their isk on, so they are sitting on it, which means that they are willing to pay more for items such as PLEX, and higher prices of PLEX means less and less people can afford to play this game.
TL;DR: Large increase in jumpclone prices and implant salvaging.
So here are my Ideas:
Jump clone Prices: Clones are the epitome of technology in EVE. it made capsuleering possible, which means that this tech should be stupid expensive. Each jump clone should cost 50-100m isk, seeing that everyone uses them. i was talking with some people and they were saying that the first clone should cost 50 mil, second 100mil, and scales up to where the last one is 250mil. i dont think its a good idea, but its still an idea.
Implant salvaging: Bodies should have more significance. you should have the ability to salvage implants. The skill would give you a 2% chance at every level to successfully salvage an implant component, and it requires x amount of components to rebuild implants (for implants of great worth, high grades, +5s, 6% utility implants,etc there would require more components) A specific NPC corporation could corner this market and charge 25million for low grade, low percentage or lower quality items, and that would scale up to 50-100mil for the higher ones, however, it would be a one purchase thing. you may have the components to build 1 low grade slave, 25mil, you may have the components to build 10, 25 mil. This could also be expanded to have a chance to rebuild implants, so its not 100% of the time, the skill could add something like 12%~ per skill level chance of rebuilding implants, so even if you have the components, its not guaranteed that you can rebuild them. this mechanic would also help keep the amount of rebuilt implants low, keeping the 'player made' implant supply low in the markets, you'd still need to go to mission runners or whatever for the implants, and it takes more then 1 salvaged implant to rebuild one, therefor the recreation isnt a 1-1 ratio. This will give dead bodies some use when people get podded and it it would be a good isk sink due to the high chance to failure on both levels of the process.
Thoughts?
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
26
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Posted - 2015.11.25 14:10:23 -
[2] - Quote
sov for wspace, remove SCC tax from pos (industry; instead give it to owner), having a corp costs money (taxsystem equal to alliancesystem), remove insourance (sorry.... i'd miss it too, for newbies make it ACCOUNTagerelated maybe?!), rework tax for contracts, tax for transporting goods into another empire (in example from amarr to caldari) and maybe some events which need you to pay some isk to participate (in example joined Fleets with CCP-Members, Tutorials, roundtables,..... plenty of possibilities)
better solutions than jumpclone tax |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2461
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Posted - 2015.11.25 14:19:29 -
[3] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote: Thoughts?
Pay money for your sub and stop bitching about being able to freeload?
Also, as LP items implants are already an isk sink, getting them another way literally undermines the original sink. No.
Frankly what the game needs is more conflict. More things explode, the less disposable income people have as they are replaced. More danger, more fun. It's win win. |
Stephanie Rosefire
Super Squirrel Omni Jump League
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:21:27 -
[4] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Stephanie Rosefire wrote: Thoughts?
Pay money for your sub and stop bitching about being able to freeload? Also, as LP items implants are already an isk sink, getting them another way literally undermines the original sink. No. Frankly what the game needs is more conflict. More things explode, the less disposable income people have as they are replaced. More danger, more fun. It's win win.
i do pay for my sub thank you. and the whole PLEX concept is what brings in alot of players. no other game does this, or atleast does it well. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1604
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:37:26 -
[5] - Quote
I have a rather off the wall idea for an isk sink. Make ships explode. Get rid of insurance. Rejoice!
Making pvp fun and meaningful would generate more explosions. Don't nickel and dime w/ tax this and tax that. Make poop explode.
Current problems:
1. HS pvp is meaningless. Large war dec corps (seriously - wtf) farm HS players not interested in being farmed (sux). Anyone in HS w/ a legit beaf w/ someone else doesn't really have an option to WAGE WAR against them due to the current proliferation of assists.
2. Large null fights are teh suxors. Really. They suck. During the fight 8 dudes on each side enjoy the high end garbage. The 500 guys actually doing the fighting for them spend hours waiting out lag. Surfing the internets. Checking out of game kb to see if what they are trying to kill died 20 minutes ago. 20 dudes get all juiced up during the fight thinking it's awesome. Individual pilots feel a sort of detached excitement when 'their' alliance supplied ship gets primaried and they wait for the lag to clear to see if they caught reps or perished. Then SRP erases that feeling. Days later olks read the news article and if they don't know better think being in an epic space fight would be awesome. Large coalitions compete in an isk/ship piling arms race so that they can survive the next BR. (woo hoo I say). The current END GAME pvp is a huge (NOT FUN OR FUNNY) joke. What was the outcome of BR? What was gained or lost? Other than some insight on killing titans - nothing.
Progress is being made to put some meaning back into pvp. It's being slowed by the lobying of large null blocks (CCP please have some faith in yourselves and this great game and just quit giving concessions to the tittybabies) to temper needed changes. Tweaking market stuff to provide overall game balance just moves eve closer to forage and build games and moves it away from destruction.
You wanna make an isk sink? Make ships explode. To do that pvp has to be fun and meaningful (worth the potential loss). To do that you need to make blob hoo haw not the norm. Allow individual groups to settle differences w/ out 3rd party interference (in HS). Make the large scale SRP garbage just not practical (botting and moon goo I'm looking at you).
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
653
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Posted - 2015.11.25 14:53:48 -
[6] - Quote
-1 I simply do not see jump clones as a viable ISK sink.
Newer players like to have a clone with attribute implants to aide there SP gain and yet they cannot afford to replace those implants since they prefer to have the ISK for ships to go explode things with. So all your idea does is punish newer players and it would likely have the opposite affect from what you intend. Besides that raising the costs of jump clones is just as crazy as the old standings crap to get them, CCP was wise to leave that error uncorrected and they would be wise to leave the costs of jump clones alone.
I am not sure the game needs more ISK sinks, but even if it does what it needs are ISK sinks that affect the veteran players and do not affect the new / newer players since it is the vets that are the ones making the most ISK they have nothing to spend it on. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1047
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:14:10 -
[7] - Quote
Buying a ship does not remove ISK from the game. Destroying a ship removes minerals, and a small amount of ISK if it was a faction ship.
What is needed to remove ISK are services and consumables.
Sadly, they elected to take most of the stuff that would make a wonderful isk sink and attach it to Aurum instead, because yay microtransactions.
Make some simple changes, like changing ammo so that you buy basic casings or something from npcs to make the rounds.
Make a certain amount of ship HP unrepairable by reps. You have to go and pay station services to fully repair. The longer you let it go, the worse it gets.
Mechanics that can apply buffs to a hull for a limited time, like a 'recalibrated' rep that cycles faster for 500 cycles, or similar things that allow modest bonuses for a small fee.
Those sorts of things, priced so that even a new character could get them, that would drain isk from the economy. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
404
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Posted - 2015.11.25 15:14:51 -
[8] - Quote
The implant idea is not a sink, it is merely market saturation followed by devaluation.
Here's some bad sinks. Allow empire based npc corp switching(school corps exempt) due to corporate wars. Already have faction, but business is cut throat. During wars the npc corps involved keep the current tax rate, but during lulls it goes to 25%. The kicker is that the same happens for transferral fees. War is declared, people gtfo of the deccing/decing corps and pay a premium (sp based)to transfer, and get higher taxes to boot.
The old medclone system was a pretty good sink, as it made vets start to really pay wads of isk for SP security. Bring it back with another flavor: you lose your current attribute allocation, you get flat attributes again.
Now this is really going to get me roasted. SP based purchasable remaps for a multiplier of the medclone "insurance" cost. The more you know, the higher it goes.
The cake is not a lie. Unfortunately, the fork is a parallel construction.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2841
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:04:32 -
[9] - Quote
Jump clones are one off expenses. Not a continual sink.
Destruction encourages players to put more isk into assets, rather than sit in a wallet, and gives greater incentive to partake in research and manufacturing (isk sinks).
The alternative is to also look at isk faucets. One thing that sticks out is the massive amount of isk generated from incursions despite the small amount of people who run them and how low the risk is when running them.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE
416
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:06:52 -
[10] - Quote
Getting a ISK-sink with jumpclones is a double-edged sword... It would work, yes, but it would hurt mostly new players. Perhaps it would be even counter-productive, because it just would boost the risk averse mentality.
With Citadels introduced and the "salty" prices on the blueprints to produce them (700'000'000'000 ISK for a X-large and 70'000'000'000 for a Large) there is allready a better step into this direction. |
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
911
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:56:03 -
[11] - Quote
Whatever services you "pay" a NPC station for is a sink, taxes are a sink and with much love even the LP store is a great sink that could sink more than it does now.
But as always my wallet is the best isk sink for everyone, I'll take cash, ships and modules all donated to Amarr. Help a poor girl out will ya?
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:25:08 -
[12] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:This game is in desperate need of isk sinks.
So what is the advantage of adding more sinks for the purpose of being sinks versus changing the payouts of some activities to other forms, i.e. nerfing faucets? Absolutely agree that there need to be more sinks, but the biggest part of the problem is the number and size of the current faucets.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:32:13 -
[13] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I have a rather off the wall idea for an isk sink. Make ships explode. Get rid of insurance. Rejoice!
Making pvp fun and meaningful would generate more explosions. Don't nickel and dime w/ tax this and tax that. Make poop explode.
Current problems:
1. HS pvp is meaningless. Large war dec corps (seriously - wtf) farm HS players not interested in being farmed (sux). Anyone in HS w/ a legit beaf w/ someone else doesn't really have an option to WAGE WAR against them due to the current proliferation of assists.
2. Large null fights are teh suxors. Really. They suck. During the fight 8 dudes on each side enjoy the high end garbage. The 500 guys actually doing the fighting for them spend hours waiting out lag. Surfing the internets. Checking out of game kb to see if what they are trying to kill died 20 minutes ago. 20 dudes get all juiced up during the fight thinking it's awesome. Individual pilots feel a sort of detached excitement when 'their' alliance supplied ship gets primaried and they wait for the lag to clear to see if they caught reps or perished. Then SRP erases that feeling. Days later olks read the news article and if they don't know better think being in an epic space fight would be awesome. Large coalitions compete in an isk/ship piling arms race so that they can survive the next BR. (woo hoo I say). The current END GAME pvp is a huge (NOT FUN OR FUNNY) joke. What was the outcome of BR? What was gained or lost? Other than some insight on killing titans - nothing.
Progress is being made to put some meaning back into pvp. It's being slowed by the lobying of large null blocks (CCP please have some faith in yourselves and this great game and just quit giving concessions to the tittybabies) to temper needed changes. Tweaking market stuff to provide overall game balance just moves eve closer to forage and build games and moves it away from destruction.
You wanna make an isk sink? Make ships explode. To do that pvp has to be fun and meaningful (worth the potential loss). To do that you need to make blob hoo haw not the norm. Allow individual groups to settle differences w/ out 3rd party interference (in HS). Make the large scale SRP garbage just not practical (botting and moon goo I'm looking at you).
Blowing stuff up is not an ISK sink though. Lets go through the numbers.
We have a N "person" economy*with 2 types the PvP/PvE guys and the industry guys.
PvP/E guys go and run an anomaly and get 500 ISK. They then go spend this on PvP ships. So lets look at the wallets.
Before the transaction:
- PvP/E guys: 500 ISK
- Industry guys: 0 ISK (they spent it all on making PvP ships: say 400 ISK).
- Total ISK in the economy: 500
After the transaction:
- PvP/E guys: 0 ISK
- Industry guys: 500 ISK (they spent it all on making PvP ships).
- Total ISK in the economy: 500
Now the PvP guys go and shoot each other and they all lose their **** (I know probably can't happen), ISK in the economy
- PvP/E guys: 0 ISK
- Industry guys: 500 ISK (they spent it all on making PvP ships).
- Total ISK in the economy: 500
Why...it looks just like it did before the big fight. Huh...
This is why ship destruction is never listed as an ISK sink on CCP's tables for sinks and sources.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:The implant idea is not a sink, it is merely market saturation followed by devaluation.
Here's some bad sinks. Allow empire based npc corp switching(school corps exempt) due to corporate wars. Already have faction, but business is cut throat. During wars the npc corps involved keep the current tax rate, but during lulls it goes to 25%. The kicker is that the same happens for transferral fees. War is declared, people gtfo of the deccing/decing corps and pay a premium (sp based)to transfer, and get higher taxes to boot. These wars would be taking place withing their relevant empire, like aliastra vs scope.
The old medclone system was a pretty good sink, as it made vets start to really pay wads of isk for SP security. Bring it back with another flavor: you lose your current attribute allocation, you get flat attributes again.
Now this is really going to get me roasted. SP based purchasable remaps for a multiplier of the medclone "insurance" cost. The more you know, the higher it goes.
The medical clone costs were in a way a progressive income tax. The higher your SP (which is probably correlated with income) the higher your tax rate. So yeah, in a way it was a good sink....although as a player with a high SP clone I like not having to pay that cost.
Implementing some sort of sink that is progressive would be good, but hard to do. The remaps idea is not bad, IMO. It has one thing I like: it is voluntary. Don't want to pay the cost...then don't.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1606
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:38:24 -
[15] - Quote
See we're back to eve needs more explosions. Every player out blowing up other players doesn't have his gaping maw sucking on some isk faucet. PVP permanantly removes stuff from the game AND it occupies folks so they aren't running incursions or carrier ratting in some upgraded anom laden system.
You want to remove isk from the game - get rid of those pathetic system upgrades. The pandering that allowed them is a bane on the game. No need to fight over good space.... just deploy this upgrade to make all space worth not fighting for.
You shouldn't be able to 'rent' good space from CCP via system upgrades. You should have to go take the good spots and then have to hold them. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
298
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:41:03 -
[16] - Quote
I'm just going to say you can dramatically increase some isk sinks by opening up the LP markets a bit. Biggest roadblock is those dang tags. People have plenty of ISK and LP to move around - but even if you're the one selling a tag, it's just isk movement, not isk sink.
Up the isk costs of trading in LP for some items, and it could have a good positive effect all-around.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:51:16 -
[17] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:See we're back to eve needs more explosions. Every player out blowing up other players doesn't have his gaping maw sucking on some isk faucet. PVP permanantly removes stuff from the game AND it occupies folks so they aren't running incursions or carrier ratting in some upgraded anom laden system.
You want to remove isk from the game - get rid of those pathetic system upgrades. The pandering that allowed them is a bane on the game. No need to fight over good space.... just deploy this upgrade to make all space worth not fighting for.
You shouldn't be able to 'rent' good space from CCP via system upgrades. You should have to go take the good spots and then have to hold them.
No, actually they do. Using my example above, note the PvP/E guys are now not only ISK poor, but also ship poor. Assuming they have their PvE ships still it will be back to the anomalies to repeat the process. Another spin around our little simple circular economy would add yet another 500 ISK to the economy.
And removing system upgrades is not a sink, but constraining or limiting a source. Not that this is bad, but it is looking at the other end of system. In fact, it is the approach I prefer. Instead of trying to find ways to find ways to drain ISK from people's wallets, find a way to keep the ISK from getting in there in the first place.
One approach would be to reconsider all of NS income flows. Instead of using the anomaly model shift over to missions. You'd still go kill your local rats but now you'd get some ISK, but also LP from CONCORD. You could then designate an LP store you'd purchase from, so I could purchase from Fed Navy while another could go with whatever the Minmatar version of the Fed Navy is (sorry, never ran many missions in HS). You could switch as well, but there'd be a lag in doing so. The LP store would need some re-working so that prices don't crash through the floor.
Now instead of just injecting ISK Into the economy via anomalies NS ratters would also be injecting "real" goods (I know the real/nominal distinction sounds weird in a virtual economy) into the economy via LP store items. Further, the lower ISK payouts would help insure that there is a positive growth rate to the money supply. We don't want the money supply to actually contract, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
360
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:15:46 -
[18] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: whatever the Minmatar version of the Fed Navy is (sorry, never ran many missions in HS). it's republic fleet for minmatar
(Imperial navy for amarr, and caldari navy for caldari)
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1606
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Posted - 2015.11.25 18:34:47 -
[19] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:See we're back to eve needs more explosions. Every player out blowing up other players doesn't have his gaping maw sucking on some isk faucet. PVP permanantly removes stuff from the game AND it occupies folks so they aren't running incursions or carrier ratting in some upgraded anom laden system.
You want to remove isk from the game - get rid of those pathetic system upgrades. The pandering that allowed them is a bane on the game. No need to fight over good space.... just deploy this upgrade to make all space worth not fighting for.
You shouldn't be able to 'rent' good space from CCP via system upgrades. You should have to go take the good spots and then have to hold them. No, actually they do. Using my example above, note the PvP/E guys are now not only ISK poor, but also ship poor. Assuming they have their PvE ships still it will be back to the anomalies to repeat the process. Another spin around our little simple circular economy would add yet another 500 ISK to the economy. And removing system upgrades is not a sink, but constraining or limiting a source. Not that this is bad, but it is looking at the other end of system. In fact, it is the approach I prefer. Instead of trying to find ways to find ways to drain ISK from people's wallets, find a way to keep the ISK from getting in there in the first place. One approach would be to reconsider all of NS income flows. Instead of using the anomaly model shift over to missions. You'd still go kill your local rats but now you'd get some ISK, but also LP from CONCORD. You could then designate an LP store you'd purchase from, so I could purchase from Fed Navy while another could go with whatever the Minmatar version of the Fed Navy is (sorry, never ran many missions in HS). You could switch as well, but there'd be a lag in doing so. The LP store would need some re-working so that prices don't crash through the floor. Now instead of just injecting ISK Into the economy via anomalies NS ratters would also be injecting "real" goods (I know the real/nominal distinction sounds weird in a virtual economy) into the economy via LP store items. Further, the lower ISK payouts would help insure that there is a positive growth rate to the money supply. We don't want the money supply to actually contract, IMO.
Blow up more ships is the way to go. I just want to point out that there are many many many 'smart' economists in the real world and in the eve world. I'd also like to point out that most of the world is horribly in debt and eve is absolutely drowning in isk. I'm not saying that collectively you guys don't have a ton of cool things to say - I'm saying this kind of crap is putting the real world in the toilet.
I'll bottom line it for you. It's a epic space fantasy game. Ships need to blow up in fun and interesting ways or the game dies. You can talk about details all day long and if ships aren't blowing up in fun and interesting ways in the background then the details really don't matter. It's not an economic simulator - it's a space fantasy game. You don't remove isk by tweaking taxes and hanging npc leeches on a guys wallet. You make it fun, you make it interesting and you blow stuff up.
Please take your scholarly economics crap and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll speak for myself. I don't want to be taxed to death in eve to keep the isk flow down. I want stuff to explode. As long as players are farting around w/ npc crap instead of doing bad things to each other, then everyone will keep making way way way more isk than the tax man (or any form of npc isk sink hoo haw) will be able to take away.
No one (well except maybe 30 or so economist nerds) wants to log into a space game to shoot little red geometry things, stack some isk and then have some npc transaction take it all away. That's not how you balance a game, and if there is one thing I'm sure of - this is a game.
(read this slowly) BLOW SSSSHHHHHIIIIITTTTTT UP.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1606
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:40:43 -
[20] - Quote
Are you seriously trying to promote player run missions paid out in universal LP is the way to fix the eve economy? After what has been repeatedly done w/ LP in the past you want to introduce CONCORD LP that can be used anywhere?
You're not trying to get isk out of the game - you're working to funnel it into your own wallet.
CCP has taken some very fishy bait in the past, but come on - even the Fozzinator isn't going to go in on this one. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
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Posted - 2015.11.25 18:44:44 -
[21] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Blow up more ships is the way to go. I just want to point out that there are many many many 'smart' economists in the real world and in the eve world. I'd also like to point out that most of the world is horribly in debt and eve is absolutely drowning in isk. I'm not saying that collectively you guys don't have a ton of cool things to say - I'm saying this kind of crap is putting the real world in the toilet.
I'll bottom line it for you. It's a epic space fantasy game. Ships need to blow up in fun and interesting ways or the game dies. You can talk about details all day long and if ships aren't blowing up in fun and interesting ways in the background then the details really don't matter. It's not an economic simulator - it's a space fantasy game. You don't remove isk by tweaking taxes and hanging npc leeches on a guys wallet. You make it fun, you make it interesting and you blow stuff up.
Please take your scholarly economics crap and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll speak for myself. I don't want to be taxed to death in eve to keep the isk flow down. I want stuff to explode. As long as players are farting around w/ npc crap instead of doing bad things to each other, then everyone will keep making way way way more isk than the tax man (or any form of npc isk sink hoo haw) will be able to take away.
No one (well except maybe 30 or so economist nerds) wants to log into a space game to shoot little red geometry things, stack some isk and then have some npc transaction take it all away. That's not how you balance a game, and if there is one thing I'm sure of - this is a game.
(read this slowly) BLOW SSSSHHHHHIIIIITTTTTT UP.
So let me get this straight...I'm agreeing with you that there is probably too much ISK entering the game and your response is to attack me indirectly by pointing out that economists are supposedly the sole reason so many countries are in debt or have screwed up economies? By the way, nice job give a huge ****ing pass to the politicians who do stupid ****ing **** with their economies all the time. As I have said on occasion, "We do not have stupid policies on accident, we have them on purpose." Case in point, very rudimentary result of economics: You want less of something, tax it. So what do most countries tax: Income. The implication is politicians want people to have less income. Income taxes can also discourage saving...savings are where investment in capital goods are made--i.e. those goods that let you make even more stuff in the future. So politicians want even less future economic output as well. Economists know this, which is why they argue for taxes on things that are bad (e.g. pollution) or on things that we don't always want more of (e.g. consumption), or at least try to reduce the distortions that taxes impose on the economy. So spare us that kind of armchair political nonsense.
An no where have I suggested that there be less PvP or less blowing up of stuff? I was merely pointing out that it is not an ISK sink. And it isn't. And since you cannot argue that it is you have to attack me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
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Posted - 2015.11.25 18:50:34 -
[22] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you seriously trying to promote player run missions paid out in universal LP is the way to fix the eve economy? After what has been repeatedly done w/ LP in the past you want to introduce CONCORD LP that can be used anywhere?
You're not trying to get isk out of the game - you're working to funnel it into your own wallet.
CCP has taken some very fishy bait in the past, but come on - even the Fozzinator isn't going to go in on this one.
LP are an ISK sink. And since I don't run missions or even rat that much....not much ISK would flow into my wallet that way (I actually make my ISK in game by making 'real' items).
But thanks for attacking me vs. putting up a rational/cogent argument against my idea.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:07:46 -
[23] - Quote
Here is an idea Serendipity tell us why blowing up a ship is an ISK sink. Note that my example actually does have an ISK sink in it, but it isn't sufficient to stop the in-game money supply from growing (not that money supply growth is bad in and of itself, but if the growth is too fast it can be bad).
So, on the second trip around the circular economy the PvP/E guys get another 500 ISK and they go buy ships from the industry guys. The industry guys sink 400 ISK, leaving them with 100 ISK. The ships are sold and now the industry guys have 600 ISK and the PvP/E guys have 0. Ships are destroyed....and the process repeats, our third trip results in 700 ISK in the economy. Our fourth trip 800, etc. Each trip around the circle adds 100 (20% of the ratting income) more ISK to the economy.
Now if we added something like PLEX those industry guys might start buying those up, depending on the amount of PLEX being put on the in game market we could see the price being bid up over time as industry types keep getting 100 ISK each trip around the economy. If the PvP/E guys decide they want PLEX too, they might rat more and further increase demand.
Yes this is a simple model, but all models are simple, in every field. That is the whole point of a model, to simplify and make it possible to analyze things.
And while there are sinks from building ships and modules to replace those that are blown up, those sinks will never fully offset the ISK source. If they did then you'd have no more market. Nobody can sustain losses indefinitely.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1606
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:11:11 -
[24] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you seriously trying to promote player run missions paid out in universal LP is the way to fix the eve economy? After what has been repeatedly done w/ LP in the past you want to introduce CONCORD LP that can be used anywhere?
You're not trying to get isk out of the game - you're working to funnel it into your own wallet.
CCP has taken some very fishy bait in the past, but come on - even the Fozzinator isn't going to go in on this one. LP are an ISK sink. And since I don't run missions or even rat that much....not much ISK would flow into my wallet that way (I actually make my ISK in game by making 'real' items). But thanks for attacking me vs. putting up a rational/cogent argument against my idea.
The 'you made my feelings all ouchy' ploy. Sigh.
No amount of math, jargon or NPC syphoning of isk will overcome the isk coming into this game. Large space fights are the only way to do it. For that to happen pvp has to be fun, interesting and meaningful. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3826
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:12:43 -
[25] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you seriously trying to promote player run missions paid out in universal LP is the way to fix the eve economy? After what has been repeatedly done w/ LP in the past you want to introduce CONCORD LP that can be used anywhere?
You're not trying to get isk out of the game - you're working to funnel it into your own wallet.
CCP has taken some very fishy bait in the past, but come on - even the Fozzinator isn't going to go in on this one. LP are an ISK sink. And since I don't run missions or even rat that much....not much ISK would flow into my wallet that way (I actually make my ISK in game by making 'real' items). But thanks for attacking me vs. putting up a rational/cogent argument against my idea. The 'you made my feelings all ouchy' ploy. Sigh. No amount of math, jargon or NPC syphoning of isk will overcome the isk coming into this game. Large space fights are the only way to do it. For that to happen pvp has to be fun, interesting and meaningful.
Which is why limiting the source is probably a more efficacious approach.
And no, you didn't not hurt my feelings with our utter nonsense, I was just pointing out you don't actually have a valid argument, just vitriol.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2462
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:59:07 -
[26] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Buying a ship does not remove ISK from the game. Destroying a ship removes minerals, and a small amount of ISK if it was a faction ship.
No, manufacturing isn't free, also sales and contract taxes.
There are a number of sinks over an above the mineral loss.
Edit: Further - tinkering with the relative spending value or worth of isk only serves to double down on the rich/poor divide.
I know people with personal wealth of trillions - if isk became scarcer then their relative worth increases hilariously. |
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.11.25 20:30:07 -
[27] - Quote
The world is in debt because very few people can print money.
EVE is drowning in ISK because basically everyone can print money-and a lot of it, mosty through rat bounties and some mission rewards. Pretty much every other way to get ISK is through some kind of trade. This isn't a total wreck on EVE's economy because the human element is removed from a lot of aspects of EVE production, especially at the lower levels: paying more doesn't get you a better item from the production line or the LP store-and, no matter who builds it or where, an Ishtar is an Ishtar is an Ishtar. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
716
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Posted - 2015.11.25 20:32:32 -
[28] - Quote
Remove tags from the loyalty point store or vastly reduce the amount of tags required. Add an arbitrary ISK cost to the items as a replacement to the tags (Not too high, but enough). Now people will use their LP to more effectively farm Faction Modules as opposed to just using LP to dump on ships and ammunition. Otherwise, make tags more accessible and increase the ISK cost component to levy it out.
Add more LP items and more corps that specialize in such items (Think FW LP stores and Pirate Faction Stores that have special items). Add more activities that can gain LP similar to Faction Warfare and Incursions and give them specific loot tables that are original to that.
Sometimes I hear people complain "Hurr durr Faction Warfare People Make So Much Isk It Isn't an ISK Sink". Now let me explain.
If someone rats they create ISK, every bounty is adding new ISK into the game.
Faction Warfare and LP stores take ISK out of the game, ISK is spent and sent directly to an NPC corporation where it dissolves. They are then given an item to trade that is worth a lot of ISK - this item is then traded and taxed by the empires further pushing isk out. At no point in this process is new ISK added into the game unless done so by regular missioning.
What needs to happen is to have more LP weight as opposed to ISK 'bounty' weight added. Which will cycle out extra ISK.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3828
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Posted - 2015.11.25 21:41:21 -
[29] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Buying a ship does not remove ISK from the game. Destroying a ship removes minerals, and a small amount of ISK if it was a faction ship. No, manufacturing isn't free, also sales and contract taxes. There are a number of sinks over an above the mineral loss. Edit: Further - tinkering with the relative spending value or worth of isk only serves to double down on the rich/poor divide. I know people with personal wealth of trillions - if isk became scarcer then their relative worth increases hilariously.
This is true, but the ISK sink will always be less than the ISK coming into the economy, if this were not the case for a given market that market would not exist. That is why looking at sources would likely lead to a better outcome.
And to be clear, removing or limiting the amount of ISK entering the game simply to remove or limit ISK entering the game economy is not the goal. The idea is to have a reasonable growth rate in the amount of ISK in the game.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1050
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Posted - 2015.11.25 22:00:52 -
[30] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:See we're back to eve needs more explosions. Every player out blowing up other players doesn't have his gaping maw sucking on some isk faucet. PVP permanantly removes stuff from the game AND it occupies folks so they aren't running incursions or carrier ratting in some upgraded anom laden system.
You want to remove isk from the game - get rid of those pathetic system upgrades. The pandering that allowed them is a bane on the game. No need to fight over good space.... just deploy this upgrade to make all space worth not fighting for.
You shouldn't be able to 'rent' good space from CCP via system upgrades. You should have to go take the good spots and then have to hold them. No, actually they do. Using my example above, note the PvP/E guys are now not only ISK poor, but also ship poor. Assuming they have their PvE ships still it will be back to the anomalies to repeat the process. Another spin around our little simple circular economy would add yet another 500 ISK to the economy. And removing system upgrades is not a sink, but constraining or limiting a source. Not that this is bad, but it is looking at the other end of system. In fact, it is the approach I prefer. Instead of trying to find ways to find ways to drain ISK from people's wallets, find a way to keep the ISK from getting in there in the first place. One approach would be to reconsider all of NS income flows. Instead of using the anomaly model shift over to missions. You'd still go kill your local rats but now you'd get some ISK, but also LP from CONCORD. You could then designate an LP store you'd purchase from, so I could purchase from Fed Navy while another could go with whatever the Minmatar version of the Fed Navy is (sorry, never ran many missions in HS). You could switch as well, but there'd be a lag in doing so. The LP store would need some re-working so that prices don't crash through the floor. Now instead of just injecting ISK Into the economy via anomalies NS ratters would also be injecting "real" goods (I know the real/nominal distinction sounds weird in a virtual economy) into the economy via LP store items. Further, the lower ISK payouts would help insure that there is a positive growth rate to the money supply. We don't want the money supply to actually contract, IMO. Blow up more ships is the way to go. I just want to point out that there are many many many 'smart' economists in the real world and in the eve world. I'd also like to point out that most of the world is horribly in debt and eve is absolutely drowning in isk. I'm not saying that collectively you guys don't have a ton of cool things to say - I'm saying this kind of crap is putting the real world in the toilet. I'll bottom line it for you. It's a epic space fantasy game. Ships need to blow up in fun and interesting ways or the game dies. You can talk about details all day long and if ships aren't blowing up in fun and interesting ways in the background then the details really don't matter. It's not an economic simulator - it's a space fantasy game. You don't remove isk by tweaking taxes and hanging npc leeches on a guys wallet. You make it fun, you make it interesting and you blow stuff up. Please take your scholarly economics crap and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll speak for myself. I don't want to be taxed to death in eve to keep the isk flow down. I want stuff to explode. As long as players are farting around w/ npc crap instead of doing bad things to each other, then everyone will keep making way way way more isk than the tax man (or any form of npc isk sink hoo haw) will be able to take away. No one (well except maybe 30 or so economist nerds) wants to log into a space game to shoot little red geometry things, stack some isk and then have some npc transaction take it all away. That's not how you balance a game, and if there is one thing I'm sure of - this is a game. (read this slowly) BLOW SSSSHHHHHIIIIITTTTTT UP.
Blowing stuff up does not improve the economy, except for mineral markets. It can be made to be a sink by adjusting manufacturing away from harvested resources and instead require seeded materials purchased with ISK. This will harm mineral markets but improve the loss of ISK from the game.
Of course, creating consumables that improve combat for a short time would assist in blowing stuff up and create a sink. Consumables that acted as skill boosters (capping a skill at 6) would not only aid in blowing stuff up, but would provide a path to level the field between vets and new folks without fundamental changes to the SP system.
Cosmetics would have been ideal, but they used that particular guranteed cash cow on Aurum. |
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