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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 18:42:03 -
[1] - Quote
I think CCP should clarify the rules on rmt a bit. I realize that this issue can be thorny and ultimately it will may not be amenable to clear rules but instead will require ccp to consider different factors. (I'm fine with people discussing some of these issues in this thread.)
But I do think one thing should be clear. If you have a real life corporation it should not be paying for its costs with isk. Corporations are not hobbyests that like to talk about the games they like to play. Corporations exist to make money, and real life corporations exist to make real life money.
1.2 bill isk = $15 120bill isk = $1,500 12 trillion isk = $150k
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
170
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Posted - 2015.11.30 18:53:55 -
[2] - Quote
Real life corporations paying stuff with isk? Is that even a thing? |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 19:08:41 -
[3] - Quote
Bobb Bobbington wrote:Real life corporations paying stuff with isk? Is that even a thing?
I am not sure. People were talking about shareholders of Mittani media. This would suggest the TMC is a corporation. But I am not sure if the sources are accurate. Also I am not sure if other media sites are run by a corporation. I believe mittani media pays it's writers with isk. Whether they pay for any other services such as web related services I do not know.
Whether they are or are not incorporated is not really important, as this rule is not aimed at anyone. I think ccp should make it clear that real life corporations should not pay their costs with isk. That seems the most sensible way.
If they do not do that then I would want to know when a corporation can pay for services with isk and when they can't. That will be much harder to sort out.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3987
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Posted - 2015.11.30 19:16:39 -
[4] - Quote
...How would you even enforce this? |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
291
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Posted - 2015.11.30 19:27:55 -
[5] - Quote
...
Been around since the beginning.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
782
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Posted - 2015.11.30 19:29:12 -
[6] - Quote
Just because there is a parity, doesnt make it equal. Let us not mince facts. Concern is how TMC took isk for services, and said isk was divied up amongst players who ran it.
I cannot see issue with this if it is solely an in game function. However, if using eve to attract attention to real world business and dollars, that can be more of an issue. Though that is of CCP's discretion. It could be beneficial. See youtube add revenue debates for lets plays.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Paranoid Loyd
7561
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Posted - 2015.11.30 19:33:50 -
[7] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I am not sure. So you are proposing a solution to a problem that you are not even sure exists?!? Talk about a waste of time.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 20:20:09 -
[8] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Cearain wrote:I am not sure. So you are proposing a solution to a problem that you are not even sure exists?!? Talk about a waste of time.
Ideally that is how rules work. You make the rule *before* there is a problem. Letting corporations continue to use isk to pay for the the costs associated with their businesses, such as writing, or web design, or other things is going to lead to bigger problems and dissatisfaction the longer you wait. That is why it would be wise to make this clear from the start.
It's not a waste of time unless you think concerns of rmt are a waste of time. This rule is about as straight forward and clear cut as it gets. If you are not going to disallow actual real life corporations from using isk for real life gains then I think the rmt idea is a farce.
Danika Princip wrote:...How would you even enforce this?
Same way they enforce rmt issues now.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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The Ginger Sith
Attero Industries
4
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Posted - 2015.11.30 20:30:44 -
[9] - Quote
if u believe all the rumors then Mittani and all the other big shots in goonswarm pay their mortgage and car payments with RMT (wouldn't doubt it they are a shady bunch lol) but i haven't seen any proof. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3987
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Posted - 2015.11.30 20:32:08 -
[10] - Quote
So is selling webhosting for ISK RMT now? Or spreadsheets, web design, TS servers, forum signatures, artwork or any of the other things people pay for?
How do you define services, and why should this change come in? How do you determine what's an IRL company, and what's an individual or a group of individuals? How do you determine what is and is not an expense being paid for with ISK?
How long have you spent on r/eve in the past week? |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 20:54:32 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So is selling webhosting for ISK RMT now? Or spreadsheets, web design, TS servers, forum signatures, artwork or any of the other things people pay for?
All are good questions. I would say that all of these would be RMT if they were done for a corporation as opposed to just a hobbiest.
I happen to own my own rl corporation. Can I pay to have my website done with isk? I would hope not. But maybe ccp should tell me. After all I have a decent amount of isk and if I could find a web developer to pay for my website in isk I would definitely consider it.
That is the point. Clearly if you form a for profit corporation then you are in it for the money. I mean that is the point of the corporation.
Danika Princip wrote: How do you define services, and why should this change come in? How do you determine what's an IRL company, and what's an individual or a group of individuals? How do you determine what is and is not an expense being paid for with ISK?
How long have you spent on r/eve in the past week?
Determining what is an irl corporation is generally quite easy.
Defining services is an interesting question but it is beside the point of the issue I raise. But it is interesting, so lets think about it. If I buy an article am I buying a "service" or a "good"? If I buy a web design am I buying a "service" or a "good"? If we say you can give isk for "goods" then I can buy a car with isk right? Can I also buy a gift-card with isk? So it seems ccp may need to define a "service" versus a "good" if they want to enforce any sort of rmt rules.
But that is beside the point. The point of not allowing rl corporations to buy services or goods or pay any of their costs with isk is straight forward and goes right to the heart of the rules. That is if the intent of the person is just to help cover the costs of their hobby that has traditionally been ok.
But almost by definition if it is a real life corporation using isk to pay for its services or advertising, it is not just a guy covering the cost of his hobby anymore. The intent of any for profit corporation is to make profits. Real money profits. So this should not be a difficult decision for ccp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
442
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:18:37 -
[12] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Letting corporations continue to use isk to pay for the costs associated with their businesses, such as writing, or web design, or other things is going to lead to bigger problems and dissatisfaction the longer you wait.
Why? It's no skin off my back if someone pays someone in ISK to run an EVE related website. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2848
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Posted - 2015.11.30 21:33:12 -
[13] - Quote
If you are referring to actual products and such, unrelated to eve, it's pretty much already covered. Can't buy a new computer with isk, nor sell it for one.
Services related to eve, are a grey area. CCP knows these kinds of things are a major and beneficial part of the game, but they also don't want it to get massively out of hand. And some things are a double grey zone, where you can frame it one way or another, and it fills both categories.
If you're referring to the goon/TMC/journalism accusations, that falls under double grey.
Before anyone grrr goons me out, I'll explain.
As a professional journalist, CCP has little in the way of control. Most countries laws protect journalists from negative action simply because it doesn't favor the corporation or its related products (libel and slander aside). I can write about my experiences and opinions all day long and get paid cash for it, CCP may have little right to oppose it.
OR
I can get paid isk for doing the exact same thing, but frame it as "for the betterment of the game". Writing guides, stories, blog posts, propaganda, etc. personally I think those aspects add a layer to the game that makes it much more involved. However, CCP does have some control on that, but as they've vaguely approved or allowed it, they would have to change policy and maybe even go back on their word to do so.
What really is an issue there, is if someone does both at the same time. How do you logically seperate the same actions, by purpose, while still maintaining the rights and desired fidelity of players?
Of course, selling your corpse for money is a definite no-go.
Then of course, there are things like streaming and videos that are even further into the grey. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:38:06 -
[14] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Cearain wrote:Letting corporations continue to use isk to pay for the costs associated with their businesses, such as writing, or web design, or other things is going to lead to bigger problems and dissatisfaction the longer you wait. Why? It's no skin off my back if someone pays someone in ISK to run an EVE related website.
Eve related? Or just generally "game" related? Or sifi related? Why does a company that is in the business or promoting a scifi book or promoting other games get to use isk to pay their costs but other companies can't? If they don't want to be seen as playing favorites ccp should have some rules. They need to think this through.
I mean a media company can cover lots of different things. It can pay people to publicize all sorts of things for them. If they do one or more eve things in the mix is that all they need? Can they just do an single article on eve? Any media site or even a law firm can do that.
That line is very blurry. I think that ccp should make some clear rules for that. But that might be a bit more difficult to spell out.
The rule I suggest is very easy to spell out and very clear. If you are a real life corporation you have no business using isk to pay your costs. If you are found to be doing that then the accounts will be banned.
Now they should be fair and give warnings to people who might be doing that now before they clarify the rules. But really this is the bare minimum they should do if they want people to take them seriously about rmt and not give the impression they are playing favorites.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2416
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:41:57 -
[15] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Eve related? Or just generally "game" related? Or sifi related? Why does a company that is in the business or promoting a scifi book or promoting other games get to use isk to pay their costs but other companies can't?
If someone is willing to work for isk in place of any other currency I simply don't see a problem with paying them in isk. What exactly is all the fuss about?
Personally, I wouldn't take isk for payment. That's my prerogative. But if I were in a situation where it made sense I certainly wouldn't see the harm. |
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
442
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:49:33 -
[16] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Eve related? Or just generally "game" related? Or sifi related? Why does a company that is in the business or promoting a scifi book or promoting other games get to use isk to pay their costs but other companies can't? If they don't want to be seen as playing favorites ccp should have some rules. They need to think this through.
I mean a media company can cover lots of different things. It can pay people to publicize all sorts of things for them. If they do one or more eve things in the mix is that all they need? Can they just do an single article on eve? Any media site or even a law firm can do that.
That line is very blurry. I think that ccp should make some clear rules for that. But that might be a bit more difficult to spell out.
The rule I suggest is very easy to spell out and very clear. If you are a real life corporation you have no business using isk to pay your costs. If you are found to be doing that then the accounts will be banned.
Now they should be fair and give warnings to people who might be doing that now before they clarify the rules. But really this is the bare minimum they should do if they want people to take them seriously about rmt and not give the impression they are playing favorites.
Because it's free marketing and PR for CCP and EVE. If you come up with an idea that promotes the game in a major way and talk to CCP about it first, chances are you could do the same.
Why do you care? How does any of this affect you in any way? |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:56:05 -
[17] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Cearain wrote:Eve related? Or just generally "game" related? Or sifi related? Why does a company that is in the business or promoting a scifi book or promoting other games get to use isk to pay their costs but other companies can't?
If someone is willing to work for isk in place of any other currency I simply don't see a problem with paying them in isk. What exactly is all the fuss about? Personally, I wouldn't take isk for payment. That's my prerogative. But if I were in a situation where it made sense I certainly wouldn't see the harm.
Well ccp does try to draw lines here. You trade some things for isk but not others. Whether they want to just give up on the whole rmt thing is their option. But in the meantime I think they should treat everyone with the same rules. In order to do that they need to actually have some rules. Some rules may be hard and again I think they may need to resort to considering a set of factors. But some rules should be easy.
The rule I propose is an easy one. If it is a corporation then it can not pay its costs with isk. Real life Corporations are made to make real money for their shareholders, so there is no legitimate way isk should be used to pay for a corporation.
Rowells wrote: What really is an issue there, is if someone does both at the same time. How do you logically seperate the same actions, by purpose, while still maintaining the rights and desired fidelity of players?
.
I don't necesarilly agree with everything you say but I do agree that the idea behind the rmt has allot to do with intent. That is why ruling out the possibility of using isk to support a real life corporation is so easy. The purpose of setting up a corporation is to make money for the shareholders. So it is pretty much impossible to say that a corporation using isk to get services or pay costs is not rmt.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
442
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:21:33 -
[18] - Quote
Cearain wrote:It doesn't effect me any more than it effects all the players in eve. I have never liked the idea that if you are in with the right people you can do this but if you are not you can't. That is why I am a big fan of the rule of law.
What is free marketing and pr? I suppose any mention of eve or isk is free marketing and pr. I don't think all pr is good pr. Having a game that markets itself as cold and ruthless, but also might bend the rules and play favorites is bad pr. IMO CCP should avoid that.
Getting advantages because you are in with the right people is how the world works, in and out of game. This now sounds like jealousy that you can't do what others do. Nothing is stopping you from starting your own EVE news site.
So to be clear, this doesn't affect you in any way, but for some reason you still care? |
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
101
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:40:50 -
[19] - Quote
Here's the thing.
Example 1: Joe owns a business. Joe knows Tony. Tony files tax returns. Joe calls Tony and says "File my corporate taxes and I'll give you 10 billion isk". Tony files the taxes and Joe pays 10 billion isk. Prove this is what happened. CCP has no clue, all they know is that Joe gave Tony 10 billion and the reason says "loan to help friend"
Example 2: Joe owns a business. Joe knows Sue is a web designer. Joe tells Sue "manage my corporate website and I will pay you 1 billion isk a month". Sue manages the website and Joe pays 1 billion isk per month. Prove this is what happened. CCP has no way of knowing what they talked about out of game privately.
Simply put, you can't prove squat unless these people are running around telling people what they have done.
Are you ok with it as long as it is related to Eve, such as isk being paid for TS servers? How about paying a member of your alliance isk to maintain a website/forum for your alliance? There are many services out of game that better your experience with the game, and it makes for a much deeper and richer universe.
Honestly I really really doubt that what you are suggesting happens much anyway, if at all. There is no RL corporation paying isk to someone in another RL corporation to maintain their RL website. If that is happening, and the corporation who the website is for can't find an IT person or use one of the easy-to-use cheap website builders, they probably have other issues and I can't imagine they'll be a RL corporation for too long.....Just sayin.
http://www.militarygamers.com/
www.fubar-alliance.com
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:51:27 -
[20] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Cearain wrote:It doesn't effect me any more than it effects all the players in eve. I have never liked the idea that if you are in with the right people you can do this but if you are not you can't. That is why I am a big fan of the rule of law.
What is free marketing and pr? I suppose any mention of eve or isk is free marketing and pr. I don't think all pr is good pr. Having a game that markets itself as cold and ruthless, but also might bend the rules and play favorites is bad pr. IMO CCP should avoid that. Getting advantages because you are in with the right people is how the world works, in and out of game.
Ok so you are not in favor of this rule because you think "Getting advantages because you are in with the right people is how the world works, in and out of game.." Thanks for your opinion.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: This now sounds like jealousy that you can't do what others do. Nothing is stopping you from starting your own EVE news site.
So to be clear, this doesn't affect you in any way, but for some reason you still care?
I am proposing a rule. Whether I am jealous of some one or other is irrelevant.
I think you may believe that this is aimed at mittani.com - which lists several games and from the faq appears to be an h1z1 site https://www.themittani.com/games/H1Z1/faq
But that is not the case. There may be other competitor websites that are run by corporations. (and I am not 100% sure that tmc is run by a corporation)
But if ccp wants to be taken seriously on the rmt then they should at least say that for profit corporations should not use isk to pay their costs.
And like I said before this doesn't effect me more than any other player who has as much isk as I do. It may surprise you but there are people who care about justice even when they are not directly effected. In any case ccp has always struck me as a company that cares about the integrity of their game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
444
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
No, I am saying sites like those help promote EVE, and if it takes ISK payments to writers to do that, then I don't see the problem. I use tripwire daily. Should it not be allowed to donate ISK to it's creator? Should siggy be banned since it charges ISK?
Anything that helps the game is more than OK to spend ISK on, whether that is an in-game tool or a website that draws more people into EVE. If it has the chance to help the game and doesn't harm anyone in-game in any way, why do we care?
And yes, the fact that some people get advantages because they have the right connections is a non-issue. Networking/connecting to the right people and getting help from people with more power is by far the best way to get ahead (both in game and in real life). I have no problem with that whatsoever. You aren't handcuffed in what you can do because someone else spent more time building a powerful network of contacts.
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Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
101
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:05:31 -
[22] - Quote
I think whether or not you are jealous is perfectly relevant. If you are jealous and posting this so you can whine and cry and try to get them banned because you can't do it because they already did, then you are just being a child who doesn't want to put in the work to put in something that has been done and may fail.
If you are not jealous and feel that there may actually be a need for a rule on this, then that is fine and you are trying to keep people from doing things that may not be allowed.
Either way, you obviously don't understand the rules in the first place, and then you are going around spreading rumors that may be untrue in order to support your idea. That, right there, is a deal breaker man. Come with some facts, don't go about spreading rumors. Honestly people spreading rumors like that, in my head, screams "I'm trying to get them banned because I want to do this but can't, so they shouldn't either."
So I would recommend you come with some facts if this is actually happening, and describe how it is not covered in the EULA and show how they can find the people doing this. And general discussion is probably not the place to put that discussion. And don't spread rumors. And I mean really, using the Mittani website? Standard blow from haters, and you can't deny that the website with all the news for Eve and everything else adds more depth to the Eve universe.
*That coming from someone entirely unaffiliated with the goons or The Mittani*
On top of that, I really doubt that if it IS run by a corporation that they are paying out in isk entirely. If they are for profit, they maybe, just maybe, pay real money because people don't buy food with isk, and the government doesn't come tax your isk....
Come on brother, seriously. If you want to be taken seriously, come with some solid stuff, not hearsay.
http://www.militarygamers.com/
www.fubar-alliance.com
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:07:02 -
[23] - Quote
Bill Lane wrote:....
Simply put, you can't prove squat unless these people are running around telling people what they have done.
Issues of how you prove something are seperate from issues of whether they should be against the rules. Its true that much rmt may be very hard to prove.
But here is the thing. The examples you give have nothing to do with what I propose. They apply to policing *all* rmt. Those problems will come up whether we are talking about a corporation or an individual.
Bill Lane wrote:.... Are you ok with it as long as it is related to Eve, such as isk being paid for TS servers? How about paying a member of your alliance isk to maintain a website/forum for your alliance? There are many services out of game that better your experience with the game, and it makes for a much deeper and richer universe.
Ok these questions are beside the point of the rule that I am proposing. I am not suggesting that any of that change.
Bill Lane wrote:.... Honestly I really really doubt that what you are suggesting happens much anyway, if at all. There is no RL corporation paying isk to someone in another RL corporation to maintain their RL website. If that is happening, and the corporation who the website is for can't find an IT person or use one of the easy-to-use cheap website builders, they probably have other issues and I can't imagine they'll be a RL corporation for too long.....Just sayin.
I do not know if it happens. Someone said mittani media is a corporation. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't know if any of the other websites are run by corporations. But I do know a bit about rl business law and I do know that rl corporations are there to make profits for their shareholders. So I do not see how ccp can consistently maintain they are against rmt yet allow rl corporations to pay for their expenses with isk.
I am drawing a distinction between rl players and rl corporations.
Eidt: Bill Lane, easy does it. I am not trying to get anyone banned. I would specifically say the opposite. That ccp should *not* ban anyone for paying corporate costs with isk unless they do this after ccp has made it clear you can not do that. Seriously think about what the purpose of a real life corporation is and then think for yourself what place isk should have in paying its costs of business.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
101
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:11:59 -
[24] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bill Lane wrote:....
Simply put, you can't prove squat unless these people are running around telling people what they have done. Issues of how you prove something are seperate from issues of whether they should be against the rules. Its true that much rmt may be very hard to prove.
I do not know if it happens. Someone said mittani media is a corporation. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't know if any of the other websites are run by corporations. But I do know a bit about rl business law and I do know that rl corporations are there to make profits for their shareholders. So I do not see how ccp can consistently maintain they are against rmt yet allow rl corporations to pay for their expenses with isk.
I am drawing a distinction between rl players and rl corporations. [/quote]
No, you have to be able to prove something to know it's going on. If you cannot ever prove that it happens, then the rule does nothing. And you obviously don't know the rules already. You are going off of what someone said, and that is ridiculous. Just stop. If I tell you the Mitanni has a peg leg and told me a joke about your mom, are you going to run to CCP and complain that someone told you the Mitanni is saying bad things? No, that's absurd. So is this entire proposal, basing it on something that somebody told you once upon a time in fairyland for pete sake.
http://www.militarygamers.com/
www.fubar-alliance.com
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 23:17:04 -
[25] - Quote
Bill Lane wrote:
No, you have to be able to prove something to know it's going on. If you cannot ever prove that it happens, then the rule does nothing. And you obviously don't know the rules already. You are going off of what someone said, and that is ridiculous. Just stop. If I tell you the Mitanni has a peg leg and told me a joke about your mom, are you going to run to CCP and complain that someone told you the Mitanni is saying bad things? No, that's absurd. So is this entire proposal, basing it on something that somebody told you once upon a time in fairyland for pete sake.
Ok again, easy does it. I am asking that ccp consider implementing a clear rule on rmt. That real life corporations should not be able to pay their expenses with isk. I am not trying to prove someone violated the as yet non-existant rule.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
101
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:24:08 -
[26] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Ok again, easy does it. I am asking that ccp consider implementing a clear rule on rmt. That real life corporations should not be able to pay their expenses with isk. I am not trying to prove someone violated the as yet non-existant rule.
I understand, but your argument is baseless. Why is this necessary if nobody does it? I mean the whole concept is downright silly, and even if it was to happen why are you concerned with people spending isk for services? They aren't paying RL money for the transaction, so there is no RMT involved. Make a better argument.
http://www.militarygamers.com/
www.fubar-alliance.com
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
444
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:28:21 -
[27] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I do not know if it happens. Someone said mittani media is a corporation. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't know if any of the other websites are run by corporations. But I do know a bit about rl business law and I do know that rl corporations are there to make profits for their shareholders. So I do not see how ccp can consistently maintain they are against rmt yet allow rl corporations to pay for their expenses with isk.
That's quite the blanket statement. Hell, the term 'corporation' is a blanket statement. It is trivial to set up an LLC/LLP/S-corp to run a website. Claiming a website is going to do nothing but try and make money IRL simply because it is incorporated is silly. Saying a corporation is doing nothing but try to make money for shareholders is silly. An LLC doesn't even have shareholders, for one example. An S-Corp's shares are privately held and more often than not untrade-able. TMC is most certainly not a C-corp, so the profit motive above anything else isn't necessarily there.
Why would a website be registered to a corporation instead of an individual? (I only know US law, so someone outside the US chime in with other country's law, if you want.) Easy, and it has nothing to do with profitability. If you are making money, even without calling it a business (ie, TMC gets money from ads, even if registered to an individual), it's acting like a business, so legally considered a partnership. Under a general partnership, your personal assets are liable in a court of law. You start a website, get some ad money, theoretically I can sue your website and take your house, your car, your 401k, etc. I'm simplifying this explanation as I don't want to write a book, but you get the idea.
Now let's say you register as an LLC. You can only lose they money you put into it. If your website is registered and run by a LLC that you create ($300 and a few hours online here in the US), I can still sue you, but I can't go after your house, I can't take your car, I can't touch your retirement savings. You create the corporation to protect your personal assets in the event of legal action.
tl/dr, it would be stupid for anyone to run a website and NOT become a legal corporation, due to how much it exposes your personal assets to loss. A profit motive has very little to do with it in many, many cases.
I would strongly suggest ANYONE making money doing something on the side (from buying/selling on e-bay to running a website) do it as a corporation to protect yourself from the liability that comes from operating as an individual. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.11.30 23:57:59 -
[28] - Quote
Bill Lane wrote:Cearain wrote:
Ok again, easy does it. I am asking that ccp consider implementing a clear rule on rmt. That real life corporations should not be able to pay their expenses with isk. I am not trying to prove someone violated the as yet non-existant rule.
I understand, but your argument is baseless. Why is this necessary if nobody does it?
Ok CCP doesn't need to prove someone did something in order to clarify their rules. It would be better if they clarified the rules before someone did what they want to prevent.
I don't know if tmc or any other group is a rl corporation. But if they are then I think it is clear they are not just hobbyests with a website but are out to make real money by paying their costs with isk. I think that pretty directly violates the purpose of the rmt rules.
Bill Lane wrote: I mean the whole concept is downright silly, and even if it was to happen why are you concerned with people spending isk for services? They aren't paying RL money for the transaction, so there is no RMT involved. Make a better argument.
You are trying to draw a distinction between "real money" , "real goods" and "real services". I don't think that distinction is a very prinicipled one. Having people get real money for isk effects me no worse than if real corporations receive "real goods" or "real services" for isk.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2850
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Posted - 2015.12.01 00:30:29 -
[29] - Quote
Cearain wrote:[quote=Rowells] What really is an issue there, is if someone does both at the same time. How do you logically seperate the same actions, by purpose, while still maintaining the rights and desired fidelity of players?
I don't necesarilly agree with everything you say but I do agree that the idea behind the rmt has allot to do with intent. That is why ruling out the possibility of using isk to support a real life corporation is so easy. The purpose of setting up a corporation is to make money for the shareholders. So it is pretty much impossible to say that a corporation using isk to get services or pay costs is not rmt.
A corporation (or its cousin formats) is not always set up with profits as the only concern. In some cases, setting up a corporation (for the mittani this an LLC) it also offers protections that non-incorporated entities and sole-proprietors do not have. Mostly legal implications. If His Regards, LLC is sued for (insert grievance here), CCP can't bankrupt Alex Gianturco for everything he's worth, even if His Regards, LLC bites the dust. For instance, Rowells.com were to be sued for copyright infringement, as a sole proprietor, I would probably go bankrupt. But if Rowells.com owned by Rowells LLC were to get the lawsuit, under most circumstances, my personal ass(ets) are safe, but the LLC may suffer some ill fate. If I understand the murky German/Austrian/Swiss meaning correctly, evenews24 (owned by riverani Media GmbH (Translate: "Company with limited liability")) is also incorporated. I don't know if they pay writers or get ad revenue through money or isk. However, they do run adds and appear to run cooperative deals on plex and other eve-related things, I'm going to make a WAG and assume some money or isk is flowing. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 01:28:29 -
[30] - Quote
I think you are going off on some minutia. There is no question that what certain groups are doing in light of ccps claims to be against rmt rubs many people wrong. And they have good reason. A clear rule preventing business entities from using isk to pay their costs would be quite helpful.
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Cearain wrote:I do not know if it happens. Someone said mittani media is a corporation. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't know if any of the other websites are run by corporations. But I do know a bit about rl business law and I do know that rl corporations are there to make profits for their shareholders. So I do not see how ccp can consistently maintain they are against rmt yet allow rl corporations to pay for their expenses with isk. That's quite the blanket statement. Hell, the term 'corporation' is a blanket statement. It is trivial to set up an LLC/LLP/S-corp to run a website. Claiming a website is going to do nothing but try and make money IRL simply because it is incorporated is silly. Saying a corporation is doing nothing but try to make money for shareholders is silly. An LLC doesn't even have shareholders, for one example. An S-Corp's shares are privately held and more often than not untrade-able. TMC is most certainly not a C-corp, so the profit motive above anything else isn't necessarily there.
Its actually not silly to say the purpose of a corporation is to make money for the shareholders. Allot of business teachers will at least address that view even if they don't agree with it. Many will agree with that view on at least some level.
You offer allot of red herrings. The bottom line is corporations are set up to do business. Whether they have shareholders or not. Whether the shares in a sub s can be sold or not. That is really the point. If what you are doing with your isk is making so much real life money that you need to establish a business structure to distribute the real money profits, then I think you are going well beyond giving the guy who paid for the corp server a few isk. At that point you are trading your isk to make real money.
You have no basis to say whether any c-corps are involved in paying for services with isk. Its not that hard to zero out profits. And again its a red herring because it doesn't really matter what kind of corporation it is, all of the various structures can make allot of money.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: Why would a website be registered to a corporation instead of an individual? (I only know US law, so someone outside the US chime in with other country's law, if you want.) Easy, and it has nothing to do with profitability. If you are making money, even without calling it a business (ie, TMC gets money from ads, even if registered to an individual), it's acting like a business, so legally considered a partnership. Under a general partnership, your personal assets are liable in a court of law. You start a website, get some ad money, theoretically I can sue your website and take your house, your car, your 401k, etc. I'm simplifying this explanation as I don't want to write a book, but you get the idea..
Yes it is true that a corporation allows certain liability protections that a partnership does not. Of course if there is not really a seperate business then those protections vanish because the corporate veil will be pierced. We can talk about all these hypothetical lawsuits etc but I think we are going a bit adrift here.
If someone were so paranoid of being sued about their eve website that they felt they needed to set up a seperate corporation then well yes this rule would be too bad for them. But by an large that is not why corporations own websites. Corporations generally own websites to make lots of money. So while there might be some paranoid guy out there that is terribly afraid of losing everything due to having an eve website I think creating the rule to fit that exceptional person is not a good idea.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: I would strongly suggest ANYONE making money doing something on the side (from buying/selling on e-bay to running a website) do it as a corporation to protect yourself from the liability that comes from operating as an individual.
Let me guess you are a corporate lawyer who sets up corporations for people. I mean really, you are going to tell all the eve bloggers to incorporate?
If they do not keep up with the corporate books and open a seperate bank account for all the money etc. then forming the corporation wont help. The courts will see the corporation as a sham and they won't get the protection. And if they do all of that it is probably because they are actually making a decent amount of money from their business and they almost certainly should not be paying their corporate costs with isk.
If someone sets up a partnership or any business model where they are going to trade isk in order to make a profit then I think that is rmt. To the extent ccp does not make that clear they lose credibility.
Now those who actually incorporate to form a for profit business are the easiest to rule out. Partnerships can be a bit looser and perhaps not such an easy case. But again the bottom line in this is whether you should be using your in game items for real money gains. That may have some gray edges but this rule against corps would be an easy case. Partnerships would be more of a judgment call.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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