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Brokeback Tim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.12.31 01:29:42 -
[1] - Quote
So I'm watching Twitch and Jason Kusion 12 box and annihilate freighter after Orca and freighter. Before I quit 5 years ago, I ganked a few freighters myself, so I'm not against it.
I'm just impressed with how well done it is now by him, CODE, and friends. It's definitely down to a science now.
The only real question I'd have is, lore wise, why do the Empires allow such ganking to be so....easy? You'd think the flags / timers would've been longer at this point of the game for attacks in high sec.
I'll have to think on this.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
42509
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:13:08 -
[2] - Quote
Lore wise* why have timers at all?
If it's only immortals shooting at other immortals, why would the Empires even really care?
In a cluster of several hundred trillion people, the carry on of a couple of hundred thousand who just trade between themselves hardly seems important
*Totally from a position of virtually no knowledge of the Lore, so absolutely no expertise applied here.
Mechanics wise, sure; but Lore wise we hardly seem important. We are just like wealthy brats. Important to ourselves but hardly something the average people thinks about.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Brokeback Tim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:22:41 -
[3] - Quote
That's a pretty good answer.
I'd assume, though, because of commerce. Freighters / craft are detonating every 5 minutes ish by -10 characters with no repercussions. Additionally, just because the capsuleers are effectively immortal, the lore stated (at least back before I quit) that there were non-immortal crews on these ships.
So the Empires citizens are dying.
Ignoring the fact that the ability for -10's to easily do this make CCP look incompetent (because that's hilarious, honestly), lore wise the Empires / CONCORD should be doing more to stop it based on the crews and lost commerce alone. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1420
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:26:55 -
[4] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote: Ignoring the fact that the ability for -10's to easily do this make CCP look incompetent
How do you figure?
It's not like they said, "Gosh, we just can't figure out a way to prevent this from happening!"
It's a feature, not a bug.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Elite Harvester
Elite Harvesters
11
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:30:46 -
[5] - Quote
Capsuleers have become a force the Empires fear and can no longer control. We are steadily weakening the Empires' grips on their own territories and power. The only forces in New Eden that can possibly hold a candle to Highsec piracy involving Capsuleers at the moment is:
A: Other Capsuleers acting as "white knights" B: CONCORD
Right now both of those leave something to be desired, especially the former (Here's looking at you, anti-ganking community). Embrace the New Era, carebears. The winds of change are blowing through Highsec and your comfortable, carefree lifestyles are quickly coming to an end. Praise James 315 and the noble Knights and Agents of the New Order of Highsec.
Visit www.MinerBumping.com to find out how you can help save Highsec.
Proud owner of 110,000 New Order Shares.
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Brokeback Tim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:31:26 -
[6] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Brokeback Tim wrote: Ignoring the fact that the ability for -10's to easily do this make CCP look incompetent
How do you figure? It's not like they said, "Gosh, we just can't figure out a way to prevent this from happening!" It's a feature, not a bug.
Mainly because it's so easy and has no real risk, unlike every other part of the game. That's why it makes them look incompetent.
It SHOULD exist, imo, it should just be harder. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1421
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:37:51 -
[7] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:
Mainly because it's so easy and has no real risk, unlike every other part of the game. That's why it makes them look incompetent.
It SHOULD exist, imo, it should just be harder.
It's as hard as other players make it. There are plenty of freighter pilots who get ganked approximately never.
The fact that a good portion of Eve players are painfully stupid doesn't reflect on CCP in any particular way.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Pix Severus
Mew Age Outpaws
1701
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:39:28 -
[8] - Quote
Ganking in highsec has been made harder and harder over the years, you could argue that the "empires" are indeed doing something about it, they just can't deal with the ingenuity of capsuleers.
This video supports this view, take note of the lines used: "The empires are losing their grasp on power." "..and as our age begins to dawn, they will learn to fear us."
My lord.
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Brokeback Tim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:43:16 -
[9] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:Ganking in highsec has been made harder and harder over the years, you could argue that the "empires" are indeed doing something about it, they just can't deal with the ingenuity of capsuleers. Like I said, I've been gone over 5 years and when we did it we were using Battleships on scouted targets to ensure loot.
These appear to be throw-away characters utilizing PLEX / buddy accounts flying destroyers.
How has it been made harder? Like I said, I've been gone and I KNOW we were "newbs" doing it since we hadn't sat down and spreadsheeted it out, but this looks easy. |
Pix Severus
Mew Age Outpaws
1701
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:50:14 -
[10] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:Pix Severus wrote:Ganking in highsec has been made harder and harder over the years, you could argue that the "empires" are indeed doing something about it, they just can't deal with the ingenuity of capsuleers. Like I said, I've been gone over 5 years and when we did it we were using Battleships on scouted targets to ensure loot. These appear to be throw-away characters utilizing PLEX / buddy accounts flying destroyers. How has it been made harder? Like I said, I've been gone and I KNOW we were "newbs" doing it since we hadn't sat down and spreadsheeted it out, but this looks easy.
Because it has been refined to a fine art since then, many things have been learned in the last 5 years, especially concerning highsec ganking, which has become one of the most innovative fields in the game.
It has been made harder by a series of nerfs over the last 5 years too, mining ships getting EHP buffs and ore bays, no more stealing from jetcans to bait a miner into attacking you, timer changes, and the safety button are but a few examples.
My lord.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9339
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:54:06 -
[11] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Brokeback Tim wrote: Ignoring the fact that the ability for -10's to easily do this make CCP look incompetent
How do you figure? It's not like they said, "Gosh, we just can't figure out a way to prevent this from happening!" It's a feature, not a bug. Mainly because it's so easy and has no real risk, unlike every other part of the game. That's why it makes them look incompetent. It SHOULD exist, imo, it should just be harder. As with most things in EVE though... it is not up to the NPCs (see: the DEVs) to provide "risk" or "real punishment" for other player's actions.
That is up to the player.
Here are some other example of things that have no "real risk" unless another player decides to "become" that "risk."
- Farming Faction Warfare sites: you go into a complex with a frigate, you kill the NPC (you need only deal ~200 dps), and you wait until the timer hits zero. (no joke... that is literally how you farm Loyalty Points in Faction Warfare)
- Running distribution missions: talk to agent at Point A, make sure mission doesn't go to low-sec, accept, load up cargo, go to Point B. Complete mission. Return to Point A. (note: distribution missions are often used to quickly grind up standing)
- POCOs: find planet that has no POCO, anchor your own, set tax rates, receive bacon. (again, no joke... they are literally that simple. No fuel, no reoccurring cost... just build it and set it up).
I am sure others can list more examples... but you should get the point.
For some activities, the only REAL "risk" comes from other players. And it is up to the players to do something about it.
How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers Blog: Musings, Ramblings, and Newbie Knowledge from a Bittervet
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Zirashi
State Protectorate Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:55:37 -
[12] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
*Totally from a position of virtually no knowledge of the Lore, so absolutely no expertise applied here.
Mechanics wise, sure; but Lore wise we hardly seem important. We are just like wealthy brats. Important to ourselves but hardly something the average people thinks about.
If I am correctly remembering some of the mission text I read a couple of years ago, normal people are absolutely terrified of capsuleers in space because of what we are capable of. For example, we routinely kill dozens of "normal" battleships with a single capsuleer piloted cruiser, something that would be impossible to pull off as a normal person. And each of those noncapsuleer ships is supposedly fully crewed which could mean every one of us is probably guilty of having single-handedly committed a small genocide lol. And that's in addition to our immortality and all the obvious benefits that brings.
I'd imagine the Empires (and those that live within it) would be extremely wary of us and our actions.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1421
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:59:48 -
[13] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote: You're ignoring my main point, though, in that it's risk-free for the ganker. The balance is all out of whack in that regard.
That's because it's not much of a point. They're risking their ships (guaranteeing their destruction, in fact). The fact that they've min/maxxed that to a pretty low cost is not as interesting as you would like to pretend.
Smart haulers optimize similarly to limit their risk. You're seeing a bunch of stupid people get blown up and are trying to make that about something other than the stupid risk the victims failed to plan for.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Brokeback Tim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:01:49 -
[14] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
That is up to the player.
Here are some other example of things that have no "real risk" unless another player decides to "become" that "risk."
- Farming Faction Warfare sites: you go into a complex with a frigate, you kill the NPC (you need only deal ~200 dps), and you wait until the timer hits zero. (no joke... that is literally how you farm Loyalty Points in Faction Warfare)
- Running distribution missions: talk to agent at Point A, make sure mission doesn't go to low-sec, accept, load up cargo, go to Point B. Complete mission. Return to Point A. (note: distribution missions are often used to quickly grind up standing)
- POCOs: find planet that has no POCO, anchor your own, set tax rates, receive bacon. (again, no joke... they are literally that simple. No fuel, no reoccurring cost... just build it and set it up).
I am sure others can list more examples... but you should get the point.
For some activities, the only REAL "risk" comes from other players. And it is up to the players to do something about it.
Really good responses. So the main problem, if there is one, is there is no incentive for other players to stop it? |
Pix Severus
Mew Age Outpaws
1701
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:15:17 -
[15] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:So the main problem, if there is one, is there is no incentive for other players to stop it?
I would agree with this. If you aren't making at least 500m ISK per day running level 4 missions in highsec, you are doing something wrong. You could lose a 1+ billion ISK faction battleship every week and still easily make enough to PLEX 4 accounts every month with enough change to buy yourself something pretty.*
*Depending on how much time you have to actually play the game, of course.
Decadence is rife in highsec, and I firmly believe if it wasn't for the regular cullings that the gankers bring us, it would lead to a universe filled with Donald Trumps.
My lord.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1421
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:24:19 -
[16] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote: Eh, see I don't see this as a good counter-argument because CCP has, from the other posters post, tried to make it harder for gankers. They just have worked around it.
You should probably look into what was actually done. It has gotten "harder" in some cases, but it certainly wasn't, "CCP did things specifically to make suicide ganking harder!"
EHP values of goddamn everything was adjusted as a part of tiericide (and pretty much every class of ship has received similar treatment - this was not a, "Grrr, suicide ganking is out of control!" change - the point was to give every ship a function, instead of simply having a "covetor" as the objectively best mining barge that renders other barges obsolete, as was the case before tiericde).
The net effect of this is that you can fly, e.g., a procurer, which tanks like a brick **** house, or a retriever, which holds a lot of ore, or a covetor, which maximizes yield. So there are more tools, now.
Whose fault is it if the "victims" choose to fly the retriever or covetor instead of the procurer?
The other thing they did was remove insurance payouts for concordokkened ships. This was more of a token change than anything meaningful. Cats are cheap.
That's about it for things that specifically pertain to suicide ganking. The crimewatch changes do prevent a certain degree of "oops" or ignorance-of-the-rules related deaths, but have little/nothing to do with suicide kills.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9340
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:27:03 -
[17] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:
That is up to the player.
Here are some other example of things that have no "real risk" unless another player decides to "become" that "risk."
- Farming Faction Warfare sites: you go into a complex with a frigate, you kill the NPC (you need only deal ~200 dps), and you wait until the timer hits zero. (no joke... that is literally how you farm Loyalty Points in Faction Warfare)
- Running distribution missions: talk to agent at Point A, make sure mission doesn't go to low-sec, accept, load up cargo, go to Point B. Complete mission. Return to Point A. (note: distribution missions are often used to quickly grind up standing)
- POCOs: find planet that has no POCO, anchor your own, set tax rates, receive bacon. (again, no joke... they are literally that simple. No fuel, no reoccurring cost... just build it and set it up).
I am sure others can list more examples... but you should get the point.
For some activities, the only REAL "risk" comes from other players. And it is up to the players to do something about it.
Really good responses. So the main problem, if there is one, is there is no incentive for other players to stop it? Oh... there are plenty of incentives.
In fact, there are a plethora of counters and avoidance techniques that gankers use for their own logistical wings (yes, gankers have logistics wings... where do you think they get all those ships, guns, and ammo?)... some of which are hilariously simple.
But... sadly... there are some people that are either too greedy, too lazy, too anti-social, or too short-sighted to perform any of these counters.
Here are some solutions:
- tank your ship! Even freighters can do this now (with Reinforced Bulkheads). And if you have spent 1+ billion ISK on a ship you might as well also invest in some Mid-grade Slave Implants (boosts armor amount by ~33%).
- have a webber. You need only a friend or alt character in a frigate enter a "duel" with you and freighter. Once you initiate warp, have your friend/alt double-web you. If done right, you can cut down the align time of freighters to 5 seconds.
- bring a booster. Like the webber and tanking solutions, but more indirect. A warfare link booster can increase the resistances and raw HP of your shields and armor by non-insignificant margins... making you VERY tough to gank.
- bring logi. People think that this will never work... but it does. The point behind bringing logi isn't to prevent a freighter from taking any damage... it is to keep it alive long enough for CONCORD to spawn.
You may notice that all of the above requires other players to help. Guess what; ganking almost universally requires multiple people to take part in it. If a freighter pilot wants to be truly safe, they have to invest just as much effort and manpower as the people trying to kill them.
How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers Blog: Musings, Ramblings, and Newbie Knowledge from a Bittervet
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1421
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:34:11 -
[18] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
- tank your ship! Even freighters can do this now (with Reinforced Bulkheads). And if you have spent 1+ billion ISK on a ship you might as well also invest in some Mid-grade Slave Implants (boosts armor amount by ~33%).
But what about my maximum cargo capacity?!?
Quote:- have a webber. You need only a friend or alt character in a frigate enter a "duel" with you and freighter. Once you initiate warp, have your friend/alt double-web you. If done right, you can cut down the align time of freighters to 5 seconds.
If I wanted to play with friends, I'd play Cards Against Humanity! (Use a daredevil and I bet you can do it significantly faster than that, too).
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
110
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:34:48 -
[19] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:Pix Severus wrote:Ganking in highsec has been made harder and harder over the years, you could argue that the "empires" are indeed doing something about it, they just can't deal with the ingenuity of capsuleers. Like I said, I've been gone over 5 years and when we did it we were using Battleships on scouted targets to ensure loot. These appear to be throw-away characters utilizing PLEX / buddy accounts flying destroyers. How has it been made harder? Like I said, I've been gone and I KNOW we were "newbs" doing it since we hadn't sat down and spreadsheeted it out, but this looks easy. SurrenderMonkey wrote: It's as hard as other players make it. There are plenty of freighter pilots who get ganked approximately never.
The fact that a good portion of Eve players are painfully stupid doesn't reflect on CCP in any particular way.
You're ignoring my main point, though, in that it's risk-free for the ganker. The balance is all out of whack in that regard. As someone that has ganked from beta I can say it really isn't harder. Ganking has received nerfs (insurance, boomerang ban etc) over the years but there have been boosts (destroyer dps buff, introduction of talos/nado etc).
Freighter pilots have the capability to avoid ganks or at least lower the chance to a tiny amount. Gankers tend to prefer to pick the lower fruit. So like many things in life you don't have to be the fastest runner just faster than some of the others :P
Scout ahead, use a web alt, don't carry +3b in the hold, watch the anti-ganking intel channels, keep your head down and don't get noticed. All of those things will lower your chances of being ganked greatly. If you only have one account than consider using a MWD orca or DST (HUUUGE tank potential) instead. Use one of the empty slots (or both) on your account for a scout character. Set the character in the choke point that you travel through. Choke points exist for all major routes and gankers setup there because moving 120 gank ships and setting them up takes a lot of time and effort. So just log on to the alt and look around for reds or known gankers. Then pop on to your freighter pilot who is a couple hops away and fly through if the coast is clear.
I provide this information as someone that has 12 gank alts with 4-13m sp each (three of them are around 4m the rest are +9m) and has engaged in large scale ganks against specific targets.
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Paranoid Loyd
8003
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:40:11 -
[20] - Quote
It's not any harder to keep your freighter safe than it is to gank one. I'd even argue it's easier to keep your freighter safe than to gank one.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
111
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:43:42 -
[21] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:It's not any harder to keep your freighter safe than it is to gank one. I'd even argue it's easier to keep your freighter safe than to gank one. No kidding. Even with the fit button I still spend hours fitting ships if I intend to do a big set of ganks. I couldn't imagine how much time people are spending fitting gank ships for code. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9747
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:47:50 -
[22] - Quote
Suicide ganking is nice risk free thing for the simple minded to keep themselves occupied.
At the same time ISK is so easy to acquire and piles up so fast that practically any ship short of personally paid for capitals are completely disposable. I could lose a freighter a day for months before I felt the need to stop. And I'm not even near the level of ISK that most have access to.
At the end of the day, it's just one big 'MEH' from me. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Paranoid Loyd
8006
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:49:21 -
[23] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:It's not any harder to keep your freighter safe than it is to gank one. I'd even argue it's easier to keep your freighter safe than to gank one. No kidding. Even with the fit button I still spend hours fitting ships if I intend to do a big set of ganks. I couldn't imagine how much time people are spending fitting gank ships for code. Not to mention the 10-20 accounts required compared to the 2-3 accounts required.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13239
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Posted - 2015.12.31 03:58:26 -
[24] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:It's not any harder to keep your freighter safe than it is to gank one. I'd even argue it's easier to keep your freighter safe than to gank one. No kidding. Even with the fit button I still spend hours fitting ships if I intend to do a big set of ganks. I couldn't imagine how much time people are spending fitting gank ships for code. Not to mention the 10-20 accounts required compared to the 2-3 accounts required.
Your sig is more appropriate, Paranoid Lord-San.
I've been web slinging my freighter around for years . Ditto the jump freighter (plus 2 more toons logged in as emergency cynos in low sec along the amarr/jita route.
As with EVERYTHING ELSE in this game, getting ccp to nerf people you don't like (as 'carebears have done for years) only Obi-Wans the people they wanted to nerf, ie the gankers just adapted and got stronger/smarter. Meanwhile, those of us who figured out te right way (learn the mechanics, become self sufficient or have reliable friends, don't be an easy target etc) are moving along unmolested by the 'bad guys' same as ever.
I wonder how many times people have to do a stupid thing (like appealing to CCP for help rather than just manning up and figuring it out for themselves) before they realize it's a stupid thing and stop doing it?
The above is a rhetorical question, I know from living life and having a job where I have to respond to the aftermath of people being dumb that stupid has no cure.
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Paranoid Loyd
8006
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Posted - 2015.12.31 04:02:55 -
[25] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Your sig is more appropriate, Paranoid Lord-San. Yeah they really need to fix the prospect.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
7267
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Posted - 2015.12.31 04:23:57 -
[26] - Quote
Brokeback Tim wrote:So I'm watching Twitch and Jason Kusion 12 box and annihilate freighter after Orca and freighter. Before I quit 5 years ago, I ganked a few freighters myself, so I'm not against it.
I'm just impressed with how well done it is now by him, CODE, and friends. It's definitely down to a science now.
The only real question I'd have is, lore wise, why do the Empires allow such ganking to be so....easy? You'd think the flags / timers would've been longer at this point of the game for attacks in high sec.
I'll have to think on this.
It's not easy, they just make it look easy. I will say the same thing in response to this as anyone else that calls ganking easy/low-skill: if it's so easy, you'll be able to demonstrate it as well without a problem.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Pix Severus
Mew Age Outpaws
1701
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Posted - 2015.12.31 04:47:28 -
[27] - Quote
Recently, while grinding some ISK on my mission alt, I have been targeted by a group of gankers looking for a blingy battleship to kill. Simply by identifying those gankers (adding anyone who turns flashy in local to red) along with casual usage of dscan, I have been able to avoid all of their attempts so far. It's so easy, and all it requires is to be somewhat alert.
My lord.
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
29389
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Posted - 2015.12.31 07:38:58 -
[28] - Quote
Another one of these covert agenda threads. Made by a faceless alt.
Can't we just collectively stop paying attention to them? One bullshit thread gets closed and the next one comes up ...
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The game has changed little from my point of view ... yet here I am, playing again with 3 accounts...
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Sharise Dragonstar
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
35
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Posted - 2015.12.31 10:54:12 -
[29] - Quote
There is no science or any real intelligence behind the current wave of high sec ganking. The gankers are not bothered about what ships they lose nor are they really bothered about the value of the ship they kill. What they want is for the victim to rant in local so they can laugh at them and "harvest tears". The punishment is you lose status and your ship. Punishment is only a punishment if it prevents further occurrences, otherwise it becomes a cost. Punishments should be increased every time it occurs with each punishment being more severe than the last. There will come a time when the punishment stops the individual from breaking rules in high sec. Basically of an in place punishment does not stop the crime it needs to be increased. High sec rules and laws are made by npc factions but in null it's up to pc's to punish any transgressors. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
583
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Posted - 2015.12.31 11:00:27 -
[30] - Quote
Gamewise with ccp, they don't do anything as this game is a sandbox... So today ganking is a very popular trend, but tomorrow something else will take its place. (Not that I am saying no one will gank ever again) |
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