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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Jack Rackhem
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:02:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Sykosys Nano ships turn around on a dime and fly away from anything they don't wish to engage.
BS's should not be able to do this. A BS should not be able to turn like an inty and flee from anything.
This is wrong, why doesn't anyone see this.
pretty much anything can run from a fight (except for bubble camps) if you set it up right and are paying attention.
hell, those people that say the can outrun an inty have no idea how to set up ships.
pvp isn't all about locking and firing your guns...there is a lot more to it *********************
If you fought like a man, you wouldn't have to die like a dog! |
Aurora Mahair
Minmatar Keepers of the Holy Bagel
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:05:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Aramendel
In short, counter nanoships with nanoships.
Great..not. Basically, this will end up the same way as it did with ECM - everyone and their jumpclone using them because they are the best counter against themselves and anything else is more or less in a disadvantage. Not that there were not countersetups, but why using them when you can have the strength of a setup and the counter instead having just the counter?
Well, we have seen how the ECM thing worked out.
This is another example of what im talking about. You are applying this logic to this situation but what about to a Damp/web setup. where you are Rendered unable to defend your self accept by tanking it until friends can show up (Same thing that happens with Nano ships.)
*********************************************** -Aurora Mahair
"Think for yourself, question authority..." Third Eye, Tool |
Sykosys
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:12:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Jack Rackhem
Originally by: Sykosys Nano ships turn around on a dime and fly away from anything they don't wish to engage.
BS's should not be able to do this. A BS should not be able to turn like an inty and flee from anything.
This is wrong, why doesn't anyone see this.
pretty much anything can run from a fight (except for bubble camps) if you set it up right and are paying attention.
hell, those people that say the can outrun an inty have no idea how to set up ships.
pvp isn't all about locking and firing your guns...there is a lot more to it
no no no
The problem isn't actually being able to run away. Its the ease in doing so. BS's are fairly huge and should require a bit of time to turn around. Not just turn and instantly into 3k speed
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JVol
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:38:00 -
[394]
Well said...
Now can WE PLEASE get a dev to comment on this??
Its more than obvious that this is of great concern to many pilots in EVE atm..
Originally by: Jack Rackhem nanoships:
nice aspects: fast (duh) can escape quite a few situations reasonable (but by no means uber) firepower
bad aspects: very expensive to do right practically no tank, or not a very good tank...this is a HUGE weakness, especially with revelations.
there really isn't much need to nerf them...they are very expensive (say ~400mil to set up) and they can't win all fights. In fact, against certain ships and setups, about all they can do is force a stalemate or leave. what they are really good for is the solo pirate preying on smaller ships. a properly set up raven would eat one 1v1 if the nanoship decided to hang out and slug it out. all the nanoship does is allow you to get away if need be vs similar sized targets.
to kill one, it's very simple...stop it. now i know a lot of people are saying "but you CAN'T stop it!" and that is simply not true. ok, it can escape a bubble camp...about time something could (and i don't want to hear the *****ing about that as i am also an interdictor pilot). as was mentioned before...it may be able to escape, but a proper bubble camp will still prevent it from violating the cordon that you have set up. if it isn't a proper camp, then sure it can escape and move on...but that's your fault for not setting up the camp right.
think of a nanoship as a gheto tech 2 ship. a single hac is going to ruin the day of pretty much anything battleship or smaller (depending on setups of course) in a 1v1 fight. are people calling on a nerf to HACs? They cost about the same as a HAC to set up right...it ain't a poor man's setup. do what you would do against a threat like a HAC...have multiple people or fly one yourself. yes warp to 0 makes them slipery...but if you can land a few webs on it...it's toasty like. how do you get close enough with a ship that can take it's dmg and tackle it? i leave that to the readers to figure out (i.e. i'm not going to play the game for you...just think outside the box)...but rest assured it can be done.
a few months back 5 n00b pilots (none with more than 6mil SPs, at least 2 were around 3mil SPs) all flying tech 1 ships...only 2 of which were battleships...took on a vagabond and a nano-phoon. we managed to kill the phoon and the vagabond ran, while only loosing a caracal in the process. the phoon pilot wasn't a n00b...it's was a matter of tactics. before you ask, yes this was in 0.0.
if this is going to be a "nerf cauz my uber l33t t1 frigate can't killz it!" thread...then i'm just going to laugh .
in short, use your head...you can beat a nanoship if you use your head.
-Jack Rackhem
PS yes, i know my last name is spelled wrong...
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:08:00 -
[395]
im really ****ed by this whining about so called "nanoships", so i haven't read the whole X pages about the subject, and therefore dont know if its already been mentioned...
but what if i put... say... 3 or 4 drone navcomps on my dominix and launched a wave of webber drones...
wouldnt this slow a nanoship long enough so it can get tackled by an inty?
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Father Weebles
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:00:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho im really ****ed by this whining about so called "nanoships", so i haven't read the whole X pages about the subject, and therefore dont know if its already been mentioned...
but what if i put... say... 3 or 4 drone navcomps on my dominix and launched a wave of webber drones...
wouldnt this slow a nanoship long enough so it can get tackled by an inty?
webber drones only travel at +-1500 m/s while most nano-ships easily go past 2500
"Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
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Zelakil
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:50:00 -
[397]
CCP please do not nerf this. I dont' fly one but I can still see that this is one of those things that makes the game dynamic and interesting. People that complain about things like this should be playing WoW, not a game like Eve in which strategy is #1. If you ab****ely MUST do something, please come up with a way to beat them (if thats really impossible as some claim) rather than do away with them. There is no logical reasson that a mod such as a mass reduing stab should have a stack penalty...we want the game to be as realistic as possible while maintaining playability. I have noticed its usually the people that get popped that complain. Well, peeps, train your skills so you can fly one to then go after it one on one.
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:11:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Father Weebles
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho im really ****ed by this whining about so called "nanoships", so i haven't read the whole X pages about the subject, and therefore dont know if its already been mentioned...
but what if i put... say... 3 or 4 drone navcomps on my dominix and launched a wave of webber drones...
wouldnt this slow a nanoship long enough so it can get tackled by an inty?
webber drones only travel at +-1500 m/s while most nano-ships easily go past 2500
did you actually read my post?
my ogres with ONE navcomp go 1500+
im sure webbers with 3+ navcomps go ALOT faster.
reading ftw
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.28 20:56:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Aurora Mahair This is another example of what im talking about. You are applying this logic to this situation but what about to a Damp/web setup. where you are Rendered unable to defend your self accept by tanking it until friends can show up (Same thing that happens with Nano ships.)
Bad bad analogy.
Which ships can mount such a setup? Gallente and minni recons.
Those ships do not have nos at all and perhaps half the base dps of nanoBS. If those would do only 200-300 dps and had not 4 heavy nos fitted I doubt anyone would complain about them.
Also, those setups are far more vulnerable against higher numbers. They can almost completely disable another ship (but are rather vulnerable to medium & heavy drones), but one single ship, no matter which kind (within limits, a t1 fitted frigate shouldn't be a problem), will either force them to retreat or die. A 08/15 BC or an AF is just fine there. You have to use a far more specialized counter against a nanobs.
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Liberator Girl
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Posted - 2007.01.28 21:06:00 -
[400]
Why not just double the speed of every ship and get inertia/nano stacking penality ? This would cause that each nano would have less meaning cause the base speed would be bigger + there wouldnt be any sense of gettin more than 3 cause of the stacking penality. Lowslot ships wouldn't be so much overpowered. Case closed
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Dragy
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2007.01.28 21:08:00 -
[401]
It was me
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Koloch
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.28 21:25:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Aurora Mahair This is another example of what im talking about. You are applying this logic to this situation but what about to a Damp/web setup. where you are Rendered unable to defend your self accept by tanking it until friends can show up (Same thing that happens with Nano ships.)
Bad bad analogy.
Which ships can mount such a setup? Gallente and minni recons.
Those ships do not have nos at all and perhaps half the base dps of nanoBS. If those would do only 200-300 dps and had not 4 heavy nos fitted I doubt anyone would complain about them.
Also, those setups are far more vulnerable against higher numbers. They can almost completely disable another ship (but are rather vulnerable to medium & heavy drones), but one single ship, no matter which kind (within limits, a t1 fitted frigate shouldn't be a problem), will either force them to retreat or die. A 08/15 BC or an AF is just fine there. You have to use a far more specialized counter against a nanobs.
Having just read this entire post I would like to thank Aramendel, j0sephine and Goumindong. What a great contribution these characters give to Eve -no matter what the discussion topic they seem to be able to look at the problem from a non-biased angle. For that thank you.
Ko
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2007.01.28 21:38:00 -
[403]
Maybe if mobile WARP distruptors realy do their job for example ditrupt Microwarp drives there wont be such problem :))
Now seriously Nanoships are now almos everywhere its clear sign of their powerfullnes. There is no simple counter as against ECM or sniper setups. So its realy ony solution to everyone fly nanoships or matar recon ? Thats realy crappy game witch 3 flyeable ships...
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
gordon cain
Minmatar x13
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Posted - 2007.01.28 23:01:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Jack Rackhem nanoships:
nice aspects: fast (duh) can escape quite a few situations reasonable (but by no means uber) firepower
bad aspects: very expensive to do right practically no tank, or not a very good tank...this is a HUGE weakness, especially with revelations.
there really isn't much need to nerf them...they are very expensive (say ~400mil to set up) and they can't win all fights. In fact, against certain ships and setups, about all they can do is force a stalemate or leave. what they are really good for is the solo pirate preying on smaller ships. a properly set up raven would eat one 1v1 if the nanoship decided to hang out and slug it out. all the nanoship does is allow you to get away if need be vs similar sized targets.
to kill one, it's very simple...stop it. now i know a lot of people are saying "but you CAN'T stop it!" and that is simply not true. ok, it can escape a bubble camp...about time something could (and i don't want to hear the *****ing about that as i am also an interdictor pilot). as was mentioned before...it may be able to escape, but a proper bubble camp will still prevent it from violating the cordon that you have set up. if it isn't a proper camp, then sure it can escape and move on...but that's your fault for not setting up the camp right.
think of a nanoship as a gheto tech 2 ship. a single hac is going to ruin the day of pretty much anything battleship or smaller (depending on setups of course) in a 1v1 fight. are people calling on a nerf to HACs? They cost about the same as a HAC to set up right...it ain't a poor man's setup. do what you would do against a threat like a HAC...have multiple people or fly one yourself. yes warp to 0 makes them slipery...but if you can land a few webs on it...it's toasty like. how do you get close enough with a ship that can take it's dmg and tackle it? i leave that to the readers to figure out (i.e. i'm not going to play the game for you...just think outside the box)...but rest assured it can be done.
a few months back 5 n00b pilots (none with more than 6mil SPs, at least 2 were around 3mil SPs) all flying tech 1 ships...only 2 of which were battleships...took on a vagabond and a nano-phoon. we managed to kill the phoon and the vagabond ran, while only loosing a caracal in the process. the phoon pilot wasn't a n00b...it's was a matter of tactics. before you ask, yes this was in 0.0.
if this is going to be a "nerf cauz my uber l33t t1 frigate can't killz it!" thread...then i'm just going to laugh .
in short, use your head...you can beat a nanoship if you use your head.
-Jack Rackhem
PS yes, i know my last name is spelled wrong...
A decent Typhoon Nano pilot would eat that raven alive. The missiles wont even come near to scratch it.
Gordon Cain
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mallina
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.29 01:00:00 -
[405]
Edited by: mallina on 29/01/2007 01:00:11 When a battleship has the agility and mobility of an interceptor and the firepower to down the average battleship within a relatively reasonable timespan, whilst neutralizing the threat of smaller ships that attempt to lock it down then something is very wrong, no matter how much it costs or how 'different' it may indeed be.
case in point: Gang of Nanophoons versus Gang of standard Battleships, Battlecruisers, Recons and Interceptors
You can be damn certain that the nanophoons will have the advantage here. They're free to engage whenever they want and although there might be an element of risk with taking the gang head-on (especially in the prescence of a huginn/rapier, although no doubt they would be called primary and dispatched quickly) theres nothing the other gang can do to make you fight if you dont want to, or even leave their space. Due to NOS, it is impossible for interceptors to obtain a tackle without practically suiciding itself by getting in range of the nanophoons and far away from the reach of its own gang.
The ONLY POSSIBLE WAY (bar human error) to kill a nanophoon is to get a web on it. Lets look at the options here:
1- Get within 10km. Not gonna happen, as such ships operate well outside that range
2- use a tackler. Very risky, nanobs can lock them long before they get in range, nos them dry, take them out and chances are the webbed bs will escape long before support jumps to the inty.
3- use webber drones. helpful, but ineffective. the drones are unable to catch up to the nanobs unless it makes a serious mistake. Thing is, it'l probably still be going faster than you despite that, plus the drones can be destroyed.
4- use a Huginn or Rapier the most effective method, but requires one or more minmatar specialized pilots to obtain. Even then, it will never stop the nanobs from getting out of gatecamps and if the gang of nanoships knows that its there they sure as hell wont blindly fly into range of it. that, and recons arnt too tough anyway, so unless you're remote repping your huginn/rapier to death it'l be called primary and dispatched before its of any real use, in most cases.
in short, the only effective counter to nanobs is to Bait it and have a cloaked Rapier or two to web it. To stop it simply warping off if its more than 24k away you could also use an Arazu to scram it and keep it dampened. The problem with THAT is that you'd be using at least 3 ships, 2 of which require specced pilots, in order to have a good chance of catching one nanophoon. is that really how it should be?
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Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2007.01.29 01:27:00 -
[406]
In order to get the speeds and usefulness you guys are talking about, the required fitting is so ridiculously expensive that it is not even nearly worth all this fuss.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.29 01:31:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Flesh Eater In order to get the speeds and usefulness you guys are talking about, the required fitting is so ridiculously expensive that it is not even nearly worth all this fuss.
no, they are not that expensive. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
CoLe Blackblood
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.01.29 02:07:00 -
[408]
Finally Minnie ships are recognized for their strengths and everybody wants a nerf. ~CoLe Blackblood |
CoLe Blackblood
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.01.29 02:21:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Aurora Mahair Has anyone stopped to think that this is actually a counter to something else. This is the counter to 3 bubble gatecamps that sit 20+ members around a gate and then one volly anything that jumps through with no chance for the other person to do anything but die. Im sorry that Nanophoons are used in such a mannor to grief but guess what so are Vaga's and currently other than a nano ship Phoons are basicly usless for pvp. We need to all take a step back and look at the crux of the problem and that is that people are using these ships to grief and get away. I dont understand how this is any different than a good Scorp Pilot that will let you beast on him til he feels like he wants to leave and then jam and warp.
You speak the truth.
~CoLe Blackblood |
JVol
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Posted - 2007.01.29 03:08:00 -
[410]
Has dev responded to this topic YET???
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mallina
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.29 03:41:00 -
[411]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
The nanoship adds spice to Eve. The phoon was considered the most useless POS battleship of all the races - now it is feared. But then again the NeutDomi is a ridiculous solopwnmobile, is that next on the list? Oh wait it has Nos so it must be.
The nanoship jumping into a bubblecamp has a chance. Why is this a problem? Is the boring ass bubble-camp supposed to be the iWin of Eve?
NOSECMDomi was overpowered. NOS/NEUTDomi, whilst still a powerful ship, is not.
also, comparing a nanophoon to a 20 person gatecamp isnt too healthy. why should a combat-setup battleship be able to slip past such numbers with such ease when standard ones cant?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.29 04:10:00 -
[412]
Originally by: mallina
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
The nanoship adds spice to Eve. The phoon was considered the most useless POS battleship of all the races - now it is feared. But then again the NeutDomi is a ridiculous solopwnmobile, is that next on the list? Oh wait it has Nos so it must be.
The nanoship jumping into a bubblecamp has a chance. Why is this a problem? Is the boring ass bubble-camp supposed to be the iWin of Eve?
NOSECMDomi was overpowered. NOS/NEUTDomi, whilst still a powerful ship, is not.
also, comparing a nanophoon to a 20 person gatecamp isnt too healthy. why should a combat-setup battleship be able to slip past such numbers with such ease when standard ones cant?
because they are flying the nano-setups? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
CoLe Blackblood
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.01.29 04:53:00 -
[413]
Originally by: mallina
also, comparing a nanophoon to a 20 person gatecamp isnt too healthy. why should a combat-setup battleship be able to slip past such numbers with such ease when standard ones cant?
A nanoship is far from invulnerable in a gatecamp. But it does stand a chance at slipping through, and why shouldn't it? Just because you've got a 20 ship camp doesn't mean you win. Just because the incoming jumper is in a nanoship doesn't mean he will win either. The odds are even in an otherwise skewed matchup and that leads us back to the openness of Eve.
20 nanoships jumping in on 20 snipers would be interesting to see.
~CoLe Blackblood |
Sara Devi
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Posted - 2007.01.29 06:21:00 -
[414]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
Originally by: mallina
also, comparing a nanophoon to a 20 person gatecamp isnt too healthy. why should a combat-setup battleship be able to slip past such numbers with such ease when standard ones cant?
A nanoship is far from invulnerable in a gatecamp. But it does stand a chance at slipping through, and why shouldn't it? Just because you've got a 20 ship camp doesn't mean you win. Just because the incoming jumper is in a nanoship doesn't mean he will win either. The odds are even in an otherwise skewed matchup and that leads us back to the openness of Eve.
20 nanoships jumping in on 20 snipers would be interesting to see.
why would it be interesting? the nano ships would be on the snipers in zero time -and most snipers don't fit a web and usually run a very small tank. I would put my isk on the nano ships winning every time.
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Havok Pierce
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.29 07:36:00 -
[415]
Edited by: Havok Pierce on 29/01/2007 07:33:28
Originally by: Sara Devi
why would it be interesting? the nano ships would be on the snipers in zero time -and most snipers don't fit a web and usually run a very small tank. I would put my isk on the nano ships winning every time.
I guess it's time to rethink our gate{w,g}ank tactics and setups.
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Sara Devi
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Posted - 2007.01.29 08:22:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Havok Pierce Edited by: Havok Pierce on 29/01/2007 07:33:28
Originally by: Sara Devi
why would it be interesting? the nano ships would be on the snipers in zero time -and most snipers don't fit a web and usually run a very small tank. I would put my isk on the nano ships winning every time.
I guess it's time to rethink our gate{w,g}ank tactics and setups.
yes, which is the point that the non biased players have been making. ie. everyone that can will run nano.
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Hera Persephone
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Posted - 2007.01.29 08:46:00 -
[417]
Nanos/Inertia stabs are not overpowered. Just learn how to kill them. They actually pop easy due to the lack of tank (Speed is their tank.) Just grab a little fast ship and web them. They will pop easy. If you don't have a little fast ship, mess up their orbit, go the opposite way they are when they reach their max orbit range. you will run right thru web range, web them then see the perty blue light.
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Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2007.01.29 09:23:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Hera Persephone Nanos/Inertia stabs are not overpowered. Just learn how to kill them. They actually pop easy due to the lack of tank (Speed is their tank.) Just grab a little fast ship and web them. They will pop easy. If you don't have a little fast ship, mess up their orbit, go the opposite way they are when they reach their max orbit range. you will run right thru web range, web them then see the perty blue light.
OMFG 14 pages of discussion and you can't even be bothered to read THE FIRST PAGE?
This has been discussed SO MANY TIMES - a WEB will NOT help you in the situation!! These BS with I-Stabs will have too much inersia for you to web them enough, and they do not pop easy because they still have the amount of armour of a BS!!
READ the damn thread ffs
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Hera Persephone
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Posted - 2007.01.29 09:30:00 -
[419]
If you put a web on them this is how it will go.
"La dee da, look im outrunning all of these missiles la dee da. Oh ****! I'm webbed!" BAM BAM BAM!! "All those missiles i was outrunning a second ago just hit me and killed me!"
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Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2007.01.29 09:32:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Hera Persephone If you put a web on them this is how it will go.
"La dee da, look im outrunning all of these missiles la dee da. Oh ****! I'm webbed!" BAM BAM BAM!! "All those missiles i was outrunning a second ago just hit me and killed me!"
You wont get close enough to do so, it does NOT work. unless the pilot is stupid (which dont happen very often)
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