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![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2873
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Posted - 2016.01.17 00:46:35 -
[1] - Quote
Make nullsec industry more sustainable. Make it cheap to produce locally but expensive to ship things to/from highsec.
Why: because nullsec is not a decent place to run industry. Most denizens simply earn ISK and use that ISK to purchase and ship goods from highsec. The problem with this is that it increases the profitability of low-risk ventures which is contrary to the backbone spirit of EVE Online.
How to fix it: there are many ways, I have plenty of ideas and so do you guys. First we must convince the playerbase that there is a problem, then we can fix it.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Danika Princip Danika Princip](https://images.evetech.net/characters/871788457/portrait?size=64)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4105
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Posted - 2016.01.17 01:09:12 -
[2] - Quote
Psst.
They did this already. |
![Scipio Artelius Scipio Artelius](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93663512/portrait?size=64)
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
43392
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Posted - 2016.01.17 02:21:47 -
[3] - Quote
Doing that would end up with no industry in most of null.
Industry is only needed to the extent that it supports people that use its products.
With a lot of null being scarse on population, if an industrialist had to make a decision to make in null, but not be able to deliver to markets; versus just building close to those markets, the obvious choice would be to build closer to the markets to overcome the transport issues.
That would result in a large shift of current nullsec Industry into highsec, except for the coalitions.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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![Nevyn Auscent Nevyn Auscent](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91786526/portrait?size=64)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2898
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Posted - 2016.01.17 02:25:50 -
[4] - Quote
It's already significantly cheaper to produce things in null (assuming we start from ore prices it's about 25% cheaper to build a T1 ship in null). And they upped transport costs with doubling fuel use I believe it was, plus fatigue increasing time to transport.
There is the issue of some T2 materials not being available in some regions, which means you have to import always for T2 production which causes importing direct from the hubs for that. But unless moon goo mining becomes active in some manner, passive moon goo of all types in every area would be too good. |
![Arya Regnar Arya Regnar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91933607/portrait?size=64)
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
867
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Posted - 2016.01.17 04:21:55 -
[5] - Quote
Local production is limited by economies of scale which are very present in this game.
If you think your suggestion fixes anything I suggest you take a look at what jump changes did to nullsec and ask a few people how much they like them.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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![Valacus Valacus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1307479617/portrait?size=64)
Valacus
Streets of Fire
125
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Posted - 2016.01.17 05:57:46 -
[6] - Quote
There is no way to make null sustainable, because the population that lives there is too small to be sustainable in the first place. Nerfing transportation would just kill all deep null completely, because there would no longer be any way to supply it. It would be overrun by null alliances that live closer to high sec that have sustainable supply chains. There is no way to make null sustainable via current mechanics. |
![Amarisen Gream Amarisen Gream](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93517323/portrait?size=64)
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
185
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Posted - 2016.01.17 06:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
The only thing that might help this is the new structures - specially with the Markets being tied to Citadels (L/XL).
If CCP, even pushes NPC stations to only have markets in "trade stations" (not taking about Jita etc,), and not every NPC station, we might see null more sustainable. As people will have to buy and sell closer to home.
But, to many mechanics right now do not support better self reliance or a need for it. Moon goo, PI. PVE. SRP programs etc.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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![Rivr Luzade Rivr Luzade](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90507074/portrait?size=64)
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2216
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Posted - 2016.01.17 07:44:09 -
[8] - Quote
What else do you need? You have the best stations to reprocess, produce, research and invent (beating ever other possible means to do these activities in the game), you just need to import a couple of moon minerals and ore minerals not available sufficiently. You can mine largely undisturbed day in/day out, you have most moon minerals available right next to you/in close vicinity. Industry in Null sec is already vastly superior to industry in High sec. There are no problems left with industry viability in Null sec, safe for one (and moon goo availability): scale and ability to provide what is needed when it is needed in the amounts needed.
Whatever mechanic you introduce, however, it cannot solve these 2 issues.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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![Iain Cariaba Iain Cariaba](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1843354135/portrait?size=64)
Iain Cariaba
2348
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Posted - 2016.01.17 08:45:23 -
[9] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:...SRP programs... SRP is not a mechanic, as there is no in-game method of performing it. SRP is entirely meta.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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![elitatwo elitatwo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/267692542/portrait?size=64)
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1028
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Posted - 2016.01.17 10:52:34 -
[10] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:The only thing that might help this is the new structures - specially with the Markets being tied to Citadels (L/XL).
If CCP, even pushes NPC stations to only have markets in "trade stations" (not taking about Jita etc,), and not every NPC station, we might see null more sustainable. As people will have to buy and sell closer to home.
But, to many mechanics right now do not support better self reliance or a need for it. Moon goo, PI. PVE. SRP programs etc.
Nullsec is sustainable already, it is just beneath some players to not fly a sooper all day long. Those cannot be helped.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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![Donnachadh Donnachadh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/506876103/portrait?size=64)
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
728
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Posted - 2016.01.17 14:43:12 -
[11] - Quote
Me thinks you have this whole thing backwards in your mind Reaver. For the nul sec indy players I know the needs of their corp and alliance are easily met with massive amounts of unused capabilities and time. So they fill that by making stuff to export and sell in high and low sec. Based on this limited knowledge of things nul sec industrial it seems that your idea would be make nul sec industry less viable because they would have significantly less demand for the product they produce.
Low population density in nul is the REAL Problem you face and these changes do not address that, all they will do is make everything sold in high sec even that much higher in price. Perhaps that is your goal here, just one more nerf to the high sec game play in order to try and force them into nul or low sec.
To be clear -1 to your idea. |
![Tabyll Altol Tabyll Altol](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93157434/portrait?size=64)
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
148
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Posted - 2016.01.19 08:00:44 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Psst.
They did this already.
/sign
-1 |
![Garnoo Garnoo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1299455473/portrait?size=64)
Garnoo
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
189
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Posted - 2016.01.19 16:44:01 -
[13] - Quote
why would null build an industry-backbone if theres no big reason to live? we would all move to lowsec near null-entry systems instead
People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back --á EvE
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![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.01 18:35:48 -
[14] - Quote
Garnoo wrote:why would null build an industry-backbone if theres no big reason to live? we would all move to lowsec near null-entry systems instead Put the best industry in deep nullsec.
from this thread:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Stop thinking hisec. Making mining links on-grid ruins it for mining in nullsec you twits. No damn way you could align and warp out before an interceptor is on you.
Mining in nullsec is already a pain with not very good returns.
I already see a lot of Orcas in belts in hisec, the main issue resides in mining in lowsec and nullsec. I think nullsec ores could use a bit more of a buff to low-end mineral yield, and a nerf to high-end mineral yield. A buff to low-end mineral yield will help to decrease the value of those minerals and enhance the production of ships from mined minerals, especially tritanium which takes up a huge percentage of ship cost. High-end minerals have a comparatively low cost in terms of time spent mining, which ensures they have a low value and nullsec miners are primarily mining low-end minerals especially if they're doing it for local production. If the high-end mineral yields were nerfed, nullsec miners would have to spend more time on those ores. This change would maintain a balance in overall time spent mining for production as well as the cost of ships while increasing the value of mining in nullsec and decreasing the value of mining in highsec. It could further help to nerf transportation of goods from highsec to nullsec while buffing transportation across much shorter distances. I don't feel that nullsec has a population problem so much as a transportation problem. It is far cheaper in the long run to move everything via jump freighter all the way from your home system to highsec and back than it is to move it via industrial to systems a few jumps away. I'd like to see some changes that nerf long distance jump freighting and buff short-distance logistics without buffing the ability of, say, blockade runners to take long trips through nullsec. I'm not sure what the change would be, but even just a nerf to long distance logistics would increase the profit margin from local nullsec production, which would increase the number of people who are willing to take part in it. I really think nullsec can become self-sufficient but that it will never happen as long as it has the crutch of jump freighters being able to make fast, easy, and safe (speaking relative to their cargo size) trips to highsec. I got onto a tangent and realized it is relevant to this topic.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Nevyn Auscent Nevyn Auscent](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91786526/portrait?size=64)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2951
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:09:42 -
[15] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Put the best industry in deep nullsec.
Null already has the best industry, and it's hammering highsec industry in utterly un-needed fashion. The advantage to Null sec should be in raw resources all being available locally, not in magic efficiency in refining and production.
However for that to occur, passive moon mining has to vanish and require people in space, so that putting all the moon goo's available in one region/constellation/system doesn't kill reasons for conflict. That will then allow the produce local, buy local, use local industry to build up, and be profitable due to lack of shipping costs.
While the current system is buy in Jita, ship to Null, take advantage of refining bonuses to out-price anyone in highsec despite shipping costs. |
![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:29:39 -
[16] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Null already has the best industry, and it's hammering highsec industry in utterly un-needed fashion.
You say that as if there's any need to maintain highsec's industrial relevance. Highsec is where industry and merchandising is easy and safe. It shouldn't be where that type of business is also the most efficient and effective.
Yes, nullsec has the best industry by base rates. But you have to consider the costs of short-range shipping. You can't just do everything in one or two systems. You need to collect resources from several systems and combine them, you need lots of manufacturers making a wide variety of goods, and you need to be shipping things constantly between systems. If you centralize your industry too much, you become a target for people who want to shoot your industrials. If you spread it out too much, your goods spend a lot more time and distance in space. Either way, it doesn't add with the losses, and thus the majority of nullsec industry is unsustainable--and I use that term as a reference to the fact that you can increase the efficiency of your local nullsec industry by outsourcing parts of the production chain to highsec. That's actually a cheaper way to do it. I'm saying it should be cheaper to keep it local even after you consider the costs of losses--assuming of course a shrewd player who is doing a good job of mitigating their losses. That should be a business avenue that is possible but quite frankly it isn't at current.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Nevyn Auscent Nevyn Auscent](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91786526/portrait?size=64)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2951
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Posted - 2016.02.01 22:58:19 -
[17] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: You say that as if there's any need to maintain highsec's industrial relevance. Highsec is where industry and merchandising is easy and safe. It shouldn't be where that type of business is also the most efficient and effective.
There is a massive need. It's called game balance. If null industry is more efficient than highsec, the null lords dominate the entire game simply by virtue of being there first, and this is bad game design. Local industry should be the most effective for all areas of space. Therefore manufacturing costs should be the same across the board (Note, I am assuming player structures here, not NPC stations, therefore they are at risk in all areas of space). Null does not need to be & should not be the best at every single thing, it should be an area rich in raw resources.
Those costs you are listing also apply to all high sec industry. If there is a serious issue with people mining/refining in NPC corps and being 'untouchable', then lets introduce an 11% mining tax & some kind of industry tax on NPC corp members also to match the bounty tax. I have no issues with that being introduced (provided it doesn't double dip on both miners and refining)
However, the real issue is nothing to do with null industry being unsustainable, or anything of the sort or competitiveness to do with high sec industry.
it's all to do with the fact that you can mine at 40/hour or rat at 60/hour and buy the ore/product you could have mined in that hour and still have isk left over. Therefore people do the most efficient method which is just make isk in null and import it all. Not because High Sec industry is too good, but because Null Ratting & then shipping is too good compared to local mining & production.
The T2 moon material distribution also causes some T2 production issues with cross region shipping needed, but that can't be changed unless people are prepared to see POS moon mining removed in favour of an active in space method. |
![Danika Princip Danika Princip](https://images.evetech.net/characters/871788457/portrait?size=64)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4173
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Posted - 2016.02.01 23:14:21 -
[18] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:~snip~
You are now aware that it is already more efficient to produce in null than in highsec. That nullsec stations give better refines, and have a flat 5% reduction in mineral requirements for production.
And that CCP already did everything Reaver is asking for in and around the Crius expansion. |
![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.01 23:57:37 -
[19] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:There is a massive need. It's called game balance. If null industry is more efficient than highsec, the null lords dominate the entire game simply by virtue of being there first, and this is bad game design. If industry in ANY area is more efficient than other areas, the industrial residents of the area will dominate the game--if the game has cheap long-range transportation. And it does. Why should the highsec lords get an advantage? What I'm proposing would shift the balance of power out of large groups and allow smaller groups in nullsec to produce for themselves without having to rely on a capital logistics chain to get anything done.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Those costs you are listing also apply to all high sec industry. How you think the math works out doesn't change the facts. The fact is that everybody ships their materials to highsec to be processed, manufactured, sold, and sent back to nullsec as products. Almost nobody actually builds much in nullsec, and none of the few who do actually make much ISK off of the business.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Danika Princip Danika Princip](https://images.evetech.net/characters/871788457/portrait?size=64)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4174
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Posted - 2016.02.02 00:03:33 -
[20] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Almost nobody actually builds much in nullsec, and none of the few who do actually make much ISK off of the business.
I do both and make billions, thanks. |
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![Nevyn Auscent Nevyn Auscent](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91786526/portrait?size=64)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2952
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Posted - 2016.02.02 00:41:05 -
[21] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: If industry in ANY area is more efficient than other areas, the industrial residents of the area will dominate the game--if the game has cheap long-range transportation. And it does. Why should the highsec lords get an advantage? What I'm proposing would shift the balance of power out of large groups and allow smaller groups in nullsec to produce for themselves without having to rely on a capital logistics chain to get anything done.
And where exactly did I say anything of the sort? Stop putting words in other peoples mouths.
I entirely agree that every area should have equal efficiency. The problem is right now Null is actually the area that has the mechanical advantage already. And it shows with things like refining ore in high sec even in a POS being a loss. Which long run means that high sec will eventually run out of mineral stockpiles. There is still a lot of inertia where people hold onto wrong ideas from years ago regarding mining & building in Null also.
However your 'solution' is utterly wrong and will actually make the balance between the areas far worse as it does nothing to address the real reasons behind why not many groups build in Null. You are ok at identifying problems but quite frankly, your solutions in nearly all your threads you are posting are terrible, short sighted and entirely based around screwing other people over to give you your desired result rather than creating the best for everyone.
P.S. Yes Danika, I know the maths, 16% better refining than a POS can give you, 50% time reductions and yes as you said, 5% Material reduction (though I thought it was 6%? But that's just quibbling over details.). The maths being something I think needs fixing to actually eliminate that advantage and if null does need anything, do it with ore availability of richer (20% etc) veins, though it already has vastly more ore than highsec to start with anyway. |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4566
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Posted - 2016.02.02 01:08:19 -
[22] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Make nullsec industry more sustainable. Make it cheap to produce locally but expensive to ship things to/from highsec.
Why: because nullsec is not a decent place to run industry. Most denizens simply earn ISK and use that ISK to purchase and ship goods from highsec. The problem with this is that it increases the profitability of low-risk ventures which is contrary to the backbone spirit of EVE Online.
How to fix it: there are many ways, I have plenty of ideas and so do you guys. First we must convince the playerbase that there is a problem, then we can fix it.
Actually NS can be a great place to do some types of industry in that local production is rather cheap...most taxes related to building, copying researching and inventing are at or near zero. The problem is logistics. Getting stuff to and from trade hubs to do the industry is problematic. Further, I believe some moon minerals are still regional (I think, been awhile since I looked so I could be wrong). When I was living in Cloud Ring it was not a problem since it was literally 1 jump from HS.
And as for logistics, if anything fatigue as made it worse--i.e. more expensive not less.
Another problem is that markets in NS are very thin. How to "thicken" them up--i.e. make them more liquid will be the tricky part. That will entail not just getting people out there building and selling stuff--i.e. the supply side, but also the demand side as well. The only ones who have really had much success doing this are goons. So what exactly do you intend to do to get more people out there buying stuff off of NS markets?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4566
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Posted - 2016.02.02 01:23:49 -
[23] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:You say that as if there's any need to maintain highsec's industrial relevance. Highsec is where industry and merchandising is easy and safe.
[snip]
High sec is where trade and commerce are safe yes. Which is one reason where trade and commerce are usually conducted there. You want to sell something you move it to HS, especially if you want to sell lots of something. You could try to sell 500 units of a t2 module in NS, but it will take you forever. Alternatively you can move it to Jita, Amarr or Dodixie and sell it much quicker.
And once you get those 500 modules to HS moving them around is a heck of a lot easier. You don't have to worry about drag bubbles, gate camps (except with war decs and even then an noob corp alt, a blockade runner or Red Frog can solve that issue).
Markets where there can sudden and unexpected violence occurring...they tend to be illiquid.
So yes, the vast amount of trade and commerce take place in HS, probably going to stay that way for awhile.
Also, a quote I find useful when thinking about these things,
Quote:The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.--Friedrich August von Hayek
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.02 02:06:27 -
[24] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Another problem is that markets in NS are very thin. How to "thicken" them up--i.e. make them more liquid will be the tricky part. That will entail not just getting people out there building and selling stuff--i.e. the supply side, but also the demand side as well. The only ones who have really had much success doing this are goons. So what exactly do you intend to do to get more people out there buying stuff off of NS markets?
Buff short-range logistics.
I'm tossing around a few ideas but I haven't got very far in coming up with actual ways to accomplish this. More importantly at this stage I am pointing out that if short-range logistics were buffed enough to make it better compete with long-range logistics, without buffing long-range logistics, then areas of high nullsec population would have a much easier time consolidating their market resources together without being forced to run all business from one station.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4567
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Posted - 2016.02.02 05:10:12 -
[25] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another problem is that markets in NS are very thin. How to "thicken" them up--i.e. make them more liquid will be the tricky part. That will entail not just getting people out there building and selling stuff--i.e. the supply side, but also the demand side as well. The only ones who have really had much success doing this are goons. So what exactly do you intend to do to get more people out there buying stuff off of NS markets?
Buff short-range logistics. I'm tossing around a few ideas but I haven't got very far in coming up with actual ways to accomplish this. More importantly at this stage I am pointing out that if short-range logistics were buffed enough to make it better compete with long-range logistics, without buffing long-range logistics, then areas of high nullsec population would have a much easier time consolidating their market resources together without being forced to run all business from one station.
If I, as an inventor and builder, need a T2 component or source material not found in any of our regions and travel to a HS trade up is no prohibitive...what is my solution?
BTW, limiting trade...not a good way to promote trade. A fourth grader should spot the inherent contradiction there.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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![Thorian Baalnorn Thorian Baalnorn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/807073717/portrait?size=64)
Thorian Baalnorn
Bad Influence I N G L O R I O U S
45
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Posted - 2016.02.02 06:36:43 -
[26] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Make nullsec industry more sustainable. Make it cheap to produce locally but expensive to ship things to/from highsec.
Why: because nullsec is not a decent place to run industry. Most denizens simply earn ISK and use that ISK to purchase and ship goods from highsec. The problem with this is that it increases the profitability of low-risk ventures which is contrary to the backbone spirit of EVE Online.
How to fix it: there are many ways, I have plenty of ideas and so do you guys. First we must convince the playerbase that there is a problem, then we can fix it.
I am not going to say there is a problem. I think some of CCPs actions may of had unintended consequences that they just havent made it a priority to deal with. Likely they expected more people to get out of high sec and stop playing in the kiddie pool. From my perspective, i think highsec was more intended for newbies to learn and to allow players to take a break from constant death and destruction .. sort of like a refuge.
Then you have the whole moon goo thing. It gave alliances reasons to control vast amounts of space for no reason other to mine moo goo and make mega profits.
If i were going to improve the situation... i would shrink high sec by about 50% and turn 3/4 of that into null and the other quarter into low. I would then fracture high sec into "islands" surrounded by low and null and scattered throughout Kspace. This would create a lot of smaller local market hubs Rather than one continuous region of high sec market.
I would then change salvage so that it is no longer faction specific but so all factions drop everything. I would then change moo goo mining so that it is done at the player level and not the corporate/ alliance level using a system similar to PI but without all the "industry" components. The raw goo would still need to be transported off the moon for industry use. Reactions and T2 production would be done in citadels just like your T1 items.
So basically i would spread everyone out, distribute resources evenly across eve, so that their was no need to import and make moon mining player based. Now the obvious problem is then what would people have to fight over? Players in eve will pvp just because they can, They dont need a reason other than the total and complete destruction of someone elses stuff.
Thats what i would do if there was a problem and i was going to fix it.
Shooting Structures = PVP Mining
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![Amarisen Gream Amarisen Gream](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93517323/portrait?size=64)
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
193
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Posted - 2016.02.02 06:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
I am looking forward to Citadels
My current issue with Null Sec Stations is this: No matter the type of station it has a market - with Citadels the market will be limited to those with the market module. So instead of looking at the market for an item in like 10 stations I have the same item in every station in Provi, except for the one I just happen to be docked in.
CCP has done a great job in trying to make each section of space tailored to different play styles. Null sec has every ability to stand on its own - minus the lack of differing material from rats - but the over lying issue with Null being independent is the player base. People find it to easy and safe to move stuff between areas.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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![Rivr Luzade Rivr Luzade](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90507074/portrait?size=64)
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2269
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Posted - 2016.02.02 07:23:08 -
[28] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another problem is that markets in NS are very thin. How to "thicken" them up--i.e. make them more liquid will be the tricky part. That will entail not just getting people out there building and selling stuff--i.e. the supply side, but also the demand side as well. The only ones who have really had much success doing this are goons. So what exactly do you intend to do to get more people out there buying stuff off of NS markets?
Buff short-range logistics. I'm tossing around a few ideas but I haven't got very far in coming up with actual ways to accomplish this. More importantly at this stage I am pointing out that if short-range logistics were buffed enough to make it better compete with long-range logistics, without buffing long-range logistics, then areas of high nullsec population would have a much easier time consolidating their market resources together without being forced to run all business from one station. Short range logistics is already superior to Jita long range logistics. If people were more open to NRDS instead of NBSI and would open up freeport stations in their border areas where you can trade, for instance, moon minerals with local neighbors, Jit would lose some appeal. But people are stupid and simply think about how to abuse this kind of freeport for their own benefits for the only purpose of destruction and not trade, that is one of the big flaws in the EVE societies that impedes local null trade outside truly neutral grounds (ie. NPC space). However, this still does not change the fact that many moon minerals are not available locally and concentrated in different corners of the universe, which means that you have to travel to a trade center in the middle regardless where everything is collected and available at one place. Your suggestion would make production in Null nigh impossible. Furthermore, people also do not pay close attention to the market. I have begun to use buy orders in my Null home for some highly sought after meta modules. However, due to laziness, ignorance, greed to get more money in Jita instead of supplying the home market or some other counterproductive factor, the yield from these BOs could not nearly keep up with the demand, so I have to import from a central hub regardless. This is also something that is going to be very annoying with Citadels and Amarisen's suggestion. If people cannot sell their stuff to my BOs in their ratting system, they will bother even less to check the market and I will have to import even more.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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![Reaver Glitterstim Reaver Glitterstim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017580736/portrait?size=64)
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:25:37 -
[29] - Quote
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:I would then change salvage so that it is no longer faction specific but so all factions drop everything.
Now the obvious problem is then what would people have to fight over? The simple solution is to give all nullsec regions all resources, but in different concentrations. Each area may be starved of certain types of salvage, moon goo, asteroids, etc. but they still have a little bit of those resources. There will be incentive to transport goods across regions, but there will always be a wide variety of things that can be built entirely with the stuff at home, and then you have things that take only small amounts of other resources which can be provided as well, even though they will be in higher demand in the area.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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![Rivr Luzade Rivr Luzade](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90507074/portrait?size=64)
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2271
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:36:12 -
[30] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Thorian Baalnorn wrote:I would then change salvage so that it is no longer faction specific but so all factions drop everything.
Now the obvious problem is then what would people have to fight over? The simple solution is to give all nullsec regions all resources, but in different concentrations. Each area may be starved of certain types of salvage, moon goo, asteroids, etc. but they still have a little bit of those resources. There will be incentive to transport goods across regions, but there will always be a wide variety of things that can be built entirely with the stuff at home, and then you have things that take only small amounts of other resources which can be provided as well, even though they will be in higher demand in the area. So change nothing? That is, after all, already the case. You can get all possible salvage from Rouge Drone wrecks and T2 materials via alchemy. Minerals are in equal supply everywhere thanks to Ihub Ore Anomalies.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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