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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
61
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:26:20 -
[811] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:J0rj Lmoz wrote:Is it going to have any limit to the number of injections/extractions per time ???
Without that an Alliance with "unlimited" resources can start making capital alt pilots trained really quick.
With this CCP is taking away the rewards for time dedication to the game, i can see lot's of bad things to this without a number of injection/extraction limit per time. With that simple limit per time this can be good.
And you don't even have to earn the ISK to do it - just rack it up on a credit card - but you know - It's not REALLY pay to win - cause you know - the skill points were earned by characters at the normal progression rate - well except multiple training - But you know - MCT that's not P2W cause it's all on the same account - cause you know - it's not like you will be able to transfer or sell them - But you know - you could have already bought each alliance member a Capital pilot at the Bazaar - cause you know - the Bazaar is pay to win as well - but you know - adding more pay to win things won't hurt . - cause you know - when they introduced PLEX you could then buy anything with cash - well everything except skill points - cause you know - buying PLEX was pay to win - well apart from skill points t - so - you know - lets let them also buy SP - cause - you know - they couldn't buy skill points before - and you know - skill points were the only thing they couldn't buy - and - now they can - but its OK - cause before you get to be called pay to win you would have to be able to buy everything in the game using a credit card. All that really says nothing regarding why SP should be something you can't buy, whether purely with in game effort or with a CC through PLEX. Ironically though, it's the existence of PLEX, not SP trading itself, that makes a CC an option. Yet no one sees an issue with that. But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal?
From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - I know you would like WOW - Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:34:31 -
[812] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - Already did. I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies. Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer" Actually, The hundreds of replies didn't have a strait answer despite being directly asked by me several times. Plenty of outrage and indignation, but no justification of how SP is both not important enough to consider worth granting because everyone can get by without it, yet so important that it can't be granted or traded. Presumably there should be some actual consequence right? What is it? People having more SP itself doesn't mean anything without leading to some other consequence.
We've yet to get that far. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:38:52 -
[813] - Quote
I doubt CCP is listening to its loyal customers the past years, so 2 ways to go i think.
- They go on with the pay to win game, which is a step down on the MMO ladder, filling their pockets and big profit for a short time and eventually dying out slowly.
- Or listening to their customers, removing the pay to win stuff, keeping the loyal and interested players, preserving the name as a quality game instead of a pay to win one ( Garbage MMO's ), your income will be less but steady. ( compensate with 1 awesome expansion instead of 2 each year, to keep the quality at its max ).
In those almost 12 years i never seen so many olders players leaving like in the past 2-3 years, Aurum, Plex and now SP buying, it all made them leave, they liked the game alot as it was before, stay true to its foundations, pls do not turn it into some mediocre MMO, its heading that way
Listen to your loyal clients and you will prevail, if not well... A GG it was and RIP EvE in less then a year or 2.
Not sure if i will hold it till 2017 if it stays that way
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
379
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:43:57 -
[814] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ironically though, it's the existence of PLEX, not SP trading itself, that makes a CC an option. Yet no one sees an issue with that.
I think that's a really good point. Being able to buy SP with ISK isn't "pay to win" (or "pay to have an advantage" or "pay to anything.") Being able to buy a 100m SP toon with ISK isn't p2w. Being able to buy a high-grade slave set isn't p2w.
The only thing that is perhaps p2w is being able to buy PLEX with real-world money. Which has been a feature of EVE for a good while, and has, IMO, generally been a very positive aspect of the game. Yes, it means a week-old player can purchase a Titan pilot and a Titan to go with it for several thousand dollarydoos, or an officer fit Raven Navy - but so what? They don't win the game that way. It doesn't invalidate the accomplishments of those of us who have built up our wallets through honorable ratting or scamming or embezzling alliance assets. Nor does a week-old player purchasing 30 million SP invalidate the SP of those of us who have trained at 2700 SP/hr.
Quote:But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal?
It's correct that SP isn't winning - rather, SP is the barrier to widening the range of in-game activities available. I can fly a Domi, but not an Apoc or Raven. I would like to - not because it gives me an advantage towards winning EVE, but because it gives me an expanded engagement envelope within which I can play. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:47:19 -
[815] - Quote
:O i forgot something !
Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore
Nuff said. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:51:04 -
[816] - Quote
I'm starting to be less upset about this.
The character Bazaar already allows a new player to get the SP of an old player. Although they'll end up paying something like a thousand dollars of real money to get a really old one.
If the skill extractors are sufficiently expensive in Aur, I think things will continue to stay balanced. The only downside is that a character only needs 5 mil sp to start extracting skill points. This could lead to people subbing alts to use as "skill farms".
If you can afford the extractors, and don't mind subbing multiple accounts, you could progress up the skill tree very fast indeed. With three alts, you'd be moving at 4x the normal skill pace essentially. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:51:50 -
[817] - Quote
.. With the added benefit that it doesn't matter how your attributes are mapped. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:52:15 -
[818] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Quote:But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal? It's correct that SP isn't winning - rather, SP is the barrier to widening the range of in-game activities available. I can fly a Domi, but not an Apoc or Raven. I would like to - not because it gives me an advantage towards winning EVE, but because it gives me an expanded engagement envelope within which I can play. That basically hints on the issue I have with opposing this. Would the game suffer detriment if, whether through earning the isk yourself or buying the efforts of those who did through PLEX (since for all intents we've effectively accepted that), you could fly an Apoc or Raven tomorrow? If so how?
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
61
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:55:17 -
[819] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - Already did. I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies. Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer" Actually, The hundreds of replies didn't have a strait answer despite being directly asked by me several times. Plenty of outrage and indignation, but no justification of how SP is both not important enough to consider worth granting because everyone can get by without it, yet so important that it can't be granted or traded. Presumably there should be some actual consequence right? What is it? People having more SP itself doesn't mean anything without leading to some other consequence. We've yet to get that far.
I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.
Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal. They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints - is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:57:17 -
[820] - Quote
MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP.
Hard work indeed.
Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
379
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:59:42 -
[821] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That basically hints on the issue I have with opposing this. Would the game suffer detriment if, whether through earning the isk yourself or buying the efforts of those who did through PLEX (since for all intents we've effectively accepted that), you could fly an Apoc or Raven tomorrow? If so how?
No, I do not believe that being able to suddenly fly an Apoc next month by trading ISK, whether from selling a PLEX or from ratting, for SP would in any way cause the game to suffer. I do not believe our neighbors whom we PvP against (BOS, TISHU, CYN0, -TC-) being able to do similar would in any way cause the game to suffer.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:01:18 -
[822] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.
Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal. They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints - is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point Maybe you missed another point stated several times. We never worked for SP. Initially we remembered to log in when skills ended for SP. That was reduced to logging in within 24 hours of a skill ending for SP. Now it's logging in as infrequently as one can get away with for SP.
I've actually played and "worked" towards several goals but SP was never one of them, mainly because no mechanic to support that has ever existed. |
Soltys
54
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:09:55 -
[823] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I can generate a couple billion in profit per week with a few minutes of effort a day with manufacturing on a single character.
PI income, particularly for pure factory planets, is ******* *ludicrous* right now thanks to the massive speculative pre-build of citadel components currently taking place.
You are possibly just bad at the game.
I generate 2-3b/day, which you can verify on eve-mogul. So don't worry about my income.
A real "newbro" that injects some SP won't generate any billions anytime soon in industry, because he doesn't know the game, doesn't know people, doesn't know mechanics and doesn't have an army of alt accounts.
Injecting SP doesn't equate to pressing "craft" button and swimming in incoming isk. Not mentioning everything else that goes along with it, as stupid BPCs and materials don't materialize at your poses/stations/outposts out of thin air (or space). There goes logistics, perhaps other people working alongside you, maybe contracts, maybe slaving alts (even if it's a stupid scout or webber for a freighter).
PI generally require at least few alts, some logistics as well as knowing mechanics of this years old simple but rigid and tiring interface. Not mentioning knowing wtf is citadel, P4 product and so on.
And these're just barebone essentials in a nutshell. A genuinly new player can inject 100m SP and it will still be completely useless as his initial knowledge is 0.
But it will enable that player to slowly dig into the subject(s) now instead of year(s) later.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
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MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:12:21 -
[824] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP. Hard work indeed. Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?
So you say =
Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )
Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ?
Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )
Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s
Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.
Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ??
EvEboard MECHcore
I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls.
Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:18:00 -
[825] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP. Hard work indeed. Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right? So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.
You're not wrong. They point is that somebody spending ISK, however acquired, on Skill Injectors isn't wrong either.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:18:59 -
[826] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6929
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:25:58 -
[827] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote:So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed. But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience. That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to. Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective. Eh you know, this is what we're reduced to. By the end the previous 300+ page thread, we'd seen everything worthwhile repeated over the last 200 if not 290 pages.
But now we get new (ie: the leftover arguments of 300 pages) stuff. Content.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
704
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:35:14 -
[828] - Quote
Got a question who is ready and how much you are going to charge for 500k of SPs ? Not knowing thr extractor's price yet would like to see how much 1 SP price tag would be. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:41:10 -
[829] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed." Take notice that i agreed on myself
"But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work"
Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those
So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible.
And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game.
I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:50:10 -
[830] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed." Take notice that i agreed on myself "But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work" Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible. And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game. I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul. Between characters I have implants ranging from +3's to +5's in partial or full sets. But those aren't needed to gain SP. They do notably enhance rate of gain though, and do require effort to afford, BUT! so will skill injectors with the exact same options. So your effort for implants, which can be bypassed by PLEX, counts but someone else for skill injectors doesn't?
You've essentially created a double standard there. No one is getting anything for free, so bringing up that you didn't get implants for free puts that at the exact same level as this proposal. |
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Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 00:56:38 -
[831] - Quote
It's time to see the statistics for this thread
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1655
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Posted - 2016.01.21 00:59:16 -
[832] - Quote
Didn't make the cut; posting to pad stats.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:00:11 -
[833] - Quote
TBH, a simple "AYE" or "NAY" would suffice.
The last thread beat the horse to a pulp. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:00:58 -
[834] - Quote
Nay |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:06:59 -
[835] - Quote
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:12:36 -
[836] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1656
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:17:10 -
[837] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?"
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:17:10 -
[838] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time. So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse? Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
I've no allusions at this point, nor have I had any in the other thread, that my words alone have any specific effect on the outcome.
SurrenderMonkey wrote:"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?" Probably in some way, I don't think it would have made the stage of the first blog, being as controversial as it was even before the CSM, if someone in CCP wasn't pushing hard for it. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:31:55 -
[839] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread. This thread is all redundant.
Said my piece, I'm out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:34:24 -
[840] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread. This thread is all redundant. Said my piece, I'm out. Not sure I can agree with that assessment, but ok.
Later.
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