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Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
9
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Posted - 2016.01.19 07:26:57 -
[1] - Quote
Hey EVE. Troy Cintryx here.
We should eliminate basic insurance on all ships. That's the 40% payout you automatically get when your ship goes ka-boom. I always wondered why this was in place to begin with.
If people want insurance, they can pay for it.
There needs to be greater consequences for getting destroyed. Death barely has any consequences anymore, save for the loss of any implants installed, or boosters... boosted. Anyway, I digress.
Insurance can be bought at most stations for a price. It's not like it would be difficult for capsuleers to get if we eliminated basic insurance.
I just think it's time the Secure Commerce Commission stopped rewarding people for getting destroyed.
Note: There was a previous topic from 2012 here - I'm not talking about getting rid of ALL insurance, just the basic automatic insurance that everyone gets for free.
Building empires in EVE for over 11 years.
Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2231
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Posted - 2016.01.19 07:42:02 -
[2] - Quote
Getting rid of basic insurance is a good start.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
148
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Posted - 2016.01.19 07:57:23 -
[3] - Quote
+1 good idea |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2903
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Posted - 2016.01.19 08:03:13 -
[4] - Quote
Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people. 40% of the base hull price is not that significant a payout in the smaller ships relative to the module cost, so it hurts people who aren't sitting on multiple billions just fine. And I'm pretty sure most are not sitting on that kind of money. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
379
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Posted - 2016.01.19 08:49:22 -
[5] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people. 40% of the base hull price is not that significant a payout in the smaller ships relative to the module cost, so it hurts people who aren't sitting on multiple billions just fine. And I'm pretty sure most are not sitting on that kind of money.
Just to be devil's advocate here - you're not supposed to fly what you can't afford to lose. It's sometimes easier said than done, but this proposal wouldn't change that. If that 40% of base hull price, which as you pointed out is rather insignificant, is the make-or-break threshold for whether or not you undock to do something risky, then you'd be better served by not undocking.
Yes, I realize that's tantamount to treason, to tell someone not to undock, but you shouldn't live that close to the line of being broke anyway. There are ways around that, of course. If you're going for a roam, ask your buddies about possible SRP in case the worst comes to pass.
Playing EvE responsibly is remarkably close to playing "life" correctly. Secure and maintain your income first, watch your back, don't trust too easily or too much, and always have a fallback plan.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1033
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Posted - 2016.01.19 09:35:54 -
[6] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote:...There needs to be greater consequences for getting destroyed. Death barely has any consequences anymore, save for the loss of any implants installed, or boosters... boosted. Anyway, I digress.....
Hi elitatwo here.
I has a better idea, crush the economy, remove incursions and block all combat anomlies with a gate that doesn't allow capital ships at all.
EVE just became a better place. You are welcome!
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1404
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Posted - 2016.01.19 09:38:30 -
[7] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people. 40% of the base hull price is not that significant a payout in the smaller ships relative to the module cost, so it hurts people who aren't sitting on multiple billions just fine. And I'm pretty sure most are not sitting on that kind of money. Just to be devil's advocate here - you're not supposed to fly what you can't afford to lose. It's sometimes easier said than done, but this proposal wouldn't change that. If that 40% of base hull price, which as you pointed out is rather insignificant, is the make-or-break threshold for whether or not you undock to do something risky, then you'd be better served by not undocking. Yes, I realize that's tantamount to treason, to tell someone not to undock, but you shouldn't live that close to the line of being broke anyway. There are ways around that, of course. If you're going for a roam, ask your buddies about possible SRP in case the worst comes to pass. Playing EvE responsibly is remarkably close to playing "life" correctly. Secure and maintain your income first, watch your back, don't trust too easily or too much, and always have a fallback plan.
Exactly this let's people fly more things as they become more affordable to lose
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1404
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Posted - 2016.01.19 09:39:26 -
[8] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Troy Cintryx wrote:...There needs to be greater consequences for getting destroyed. Death barely has any consequences anymore, save for the loss of any implants installed, or boosters... boosted. Anyway, I digress..... Hi elitatwo here. I has a better idea, crush the economy, remove incursions and block all combat anomlies with a gate that doesn't allow capital ships at all. EVE just became a better place. You are welcome!
Can we move l4s to low sec as well
Citadel worm hole tax
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Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
10
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Posted - 2016.01.19 10:45:49 -
[9] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Playing EvE responsibly is remarkably close to playing "life" correctly. Secure and maintain your income first, watch your back, don't trust too easily or too much, and always have a fallback plan.
This should be required reading for all new capsuleers.
Not to mention, frigates, destroyers, and industry ships aren't hard to come by. Career agents give them out like candy. Including the Venture, which is very easy to make ISK with.
Also, I'm not advocating for the elimination of insurance, just the basic free insurance that everyone gets. If you are afraid of losing your ship... then buy insurance!
Building empires in EVE for over 11 years.
Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2903
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Posted - 2016.01.19 10:48:10 -
[10] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote: Just to be devil's advocate here - you're not supposed to fly what you can't afford to lose. It's sometimes easier said than done, but this proposal wouldn't change that. If that 40% of base hull price, which as you pointed out is rather insignificant, is the make-or-break threshold for whether or not you undock to do something risky, then you'd be better served by not undocking.
Yes, I realize that's tantamount to treason, to tell someone not to undock, but you shouldn't live that close to the line of being broke anyway. There are ways around that, of course. If you're going for a roam, ask your buddies about possible SRP in case the worst comes to pass.
Playing EvE responsibly is remarkably close to playing "life" correctly. Secure and maintain your income first, watch your back, don't trust too easily or too much, and always have a fallback plan.
Sure, but why move the gate? It's not going to affect the rich & powerful at all. Who it will affect are the poor who don't have 100's of hours a month to farm new things and don't live in a coalition with SRP.
So why are we aiming at the poor. Austerity never works, all it does is increase the divide between the rich & poor. |
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Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
10
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Posted - 2016.01.19 10:55:17 -
[11] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: So why are we aiming at the poor. Austerity never works, all it does is increase the divide between the rich & poor.
I'm not aiming at the poor. I'm aiming at everyone.
Stopping automatic insurance payments will slow the inflationary pressures being felt on the EVE market, which drives up the price of basically everything.
New/poor players have many different opportunities to make ISK, from agents, to mining, to whatever else they want to do. Losing their ship will teach them a valuable lesson.... STOP GETTING DESTROYED.
Or, alternatively... BUY INSURANCE.
Building empires in EVE for over 11 years.
Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2881
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:10:21 -
[12] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: So why are we aiming at the poor. Austerity never works, all it does is increase the divide between the rich & poor.
I'm not aiming at the poor. I'm aiming at everyone. Stopping automatic insurance payments will slow the inflationary pressures being felt on the EVE market, which drives up the price of basically everything. New/poor players have many different opportunities to make ISK, from agents, to mining, to whatever else they want to do. Losing their ship will teach them a valuable lesson.... STOP GETTING DESTROYED. Or, alternatively... BUY INSURANCE. So, don't undock or spend less time playing the fun parts. Noted. |
Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
10
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:16:30 -
[13] - Quote
Rowells wrote: So, don't undock or spend less time playing the fun parts. Noted.
How does having to buy insurance turn into "don't undock"?
Building empires in EVE for over 11 years.
Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2903
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:19:28 -
[14] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote: Stopping automatic insurance payments will slow the inflationary pressures being felt on the EVE market, which drives up the price of basically everything.
Ah, I see your issue. You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false. You secondly believe that basic insurance payouts make up a significant portion of isk creation. And you thirdly believe that this will have any effect on the market.
I suggest going away, and actually looking into your assumptions properly. |
Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
10
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Troy Cintryx wrote: Stopping automatic insurance payments will slow the inflationary pressures being felt on the EVE market, which drives up the price of basically everything.
Ah, I see your issue. You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false. You secondly believe that basic insurance payouts make up a significant portion of isk creation. And you thirdly believe that this will have any effect on the market. I suggest going away, and actually looking into your assumptions properly.
Please, Nevyn, tell me what else I believe. Clearly you've known me for so long that you know that.
There is inflation in EVE. There's more ISK being created than disappearing. There's also more ISK per player then there was 10 years ago.
I do not believe basic insurance makes up a "significant" portion of isk creation. Basic insurance creates isk without cost. I have suggested we eliminate that.
Having every single player not receive 40% of their ships value every time they explode will absolutely have an effect on the EVE market. Not a major one, but it will have an effect. Let's say for example the SCC pays out 10 trillion ISK per day in basic insurance. While I don't think it would move the markets in any major way, keeping 10 trillion ISK per day out of the market would have an effect.
I'm also not against insurance. I'm just advancing an idea that we have people pay for it.
Building empires in EVE for over 11 years.
Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1034
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:48:35 -
[16] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:...Can we move l4s to low sec as well
Or make them as difficult as they used to be. We already have the new AI and soloing level 4 missions wasn't as easy as it is now before they introduced level 5 missions - which still are a bust.
To hell with ewar immunity, Guristas jam you, Serpentis damn you, Sanshas tracking disrupt you, Blood Raider neut you and Angels well they are faster than anyone else and stuff, which leaves Rogue Drones that hurt you all over the doll.
And we have it, level 4 missions as highest possible income with appropiate risk in highsec.
You know, I still want to fly and afford a Moa every now and then.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2904
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:51:34 -
[17] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote:[
Please, Nevyn, tell me what else I believe. Clearly you've known me for so long that you know that.
There is inflation in EVE. There's more ISK being created than disappearing. There's also more ISK per player then there was 10 years ago.
I do not believe basic insurance makes up a "significant" portion of isk creation. Basic insurance creates isk without cost. I have suggested we eliminate that.
Having every single player not receive 40% of their ships value every time they explode will absolutely have an effect on the EVE market. Not a major one, but it will have an effect. Let's say for example the SCC pays out 10 trillion ISK per day in basic insurance. While I don't think it would move the markets in any major way, keeping 10 trillion ISK per day out of the market would have an effect.
I'm also not against insurance. I'm just advancing an idea that we have people pay for it.
You are advancing the idea of austerity. Which advantages the already rich and pushes the middle class down. As for the rest, you are making up laughable figures when CCP have regularly and consistently released economic figures, and explained what is actually going on with the economy. At least use actual real numbers rather than inventing pure bull. Even if you get the conclusions wrong then you at least have some basis to start with.
Anyway, the large price rises in the market have all been due to changes in build requirements causing significant mineral value changes, nothing to do with inflation at all. There is no need to screw with the poorer players for the sake of a tiny change to the overall isk faucets of EVE, which will not impact the markets because the rich won't be significantly affected. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1034
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Posted - 2016.01.19 11:53:41 -
[18] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote:...New/poor players have many different opportunities to make ISK, from agents, to mining, to whatever else they want to do. Losing their ship will teach them a valuable lesson.... STOP GETTING DESTROYED.
Or, alternatively... BUY INSURANCE.
You are quite a funny guy, hope you did a pricecheck recently. The insurance for an Apocalypse costs as much has a Harbinger, so you get almost the current pricetag pricetag of said Apocalypse but you didn't fit her yet.
I don't know if you ever dabbled in ship vs ship combat but if you aren't winning, you lose all. Meaning you pay another 80-90 million for the loss of your fit and you will end up flying a Drake for some time.
Either way, your wallet starts looking at you funny.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17124
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.
It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
870
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:46:45 -
[20] - Quote
What do I do about the carriers I steal in C1-C4 wormholes though?.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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morion
Lighting Build
57
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:55:23 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.
It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.
With market history in game going back only 1 year.
I can not see that with my eyes. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15830
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Posted - 2016.01.19 13:03:59 -
[22] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people.
Ah ah ah.
In the short term, perhaps.
But part of what keeps the poor players poor is the relative income and buying power they lack... precisely because the rich players have such secure streams of income, especially liquid isk like insurance provides. Remember, income and buying power are all relative.
A rich player(and we're really talking about rich PvE players compared to poor PvE players, I just wanted to establish that) gets way, way more raw benefit from basic insurance than a poor player ever will. Why? Because the rich player flies larger ships MUCH more often.
Once you cross the barrier into flying and losing battlecruisers and battleships, you derive disproportionate benefit from it compared to people using frigates and cruisers. And that is cumulative, so the upper ends keep getting higher and higher raw numbers, outpacing the lower levels and creating inflation, which devalues the buying power of the poor player still further.
To improve the lives of the space peasants we need to shake up the primary income streams in this game, and basic ship insurance is unfortunately a very big one.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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morion
Lighting Build
57
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Posted - 2016.01.19 13:46:59 -
[23] - Quote
Insurance v isk created / Stuff ^ exploded basic moor isk less stuff inflationary
Ratting v isk created + stuff ^ born basic offsets or neutral
Ratting without looting is inflationary
Mining zero isk created + ^ Stuff is born deflationary
That said insurance is a Isk faucet.
I would like to see smarter insurance.
It is only part of a larger picture. |
Doddy
Excidium.
948
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Posted - 2016.01.19 14:14:29 -
[24] - Quote
Troy Cintryx wrote:Hey EVE. Troy Cintryx here. We should eliminate basic insurance on all ships. That's the 40% payout you automatically get when your ship goes ka-boom. I always wondered why this was in place to begin with. If people want insurance, they can pay for it. There needs to be greater consequences for getting destroyed. Death barely has any consequences anymore, save for the loss of any implants installed, or boosters... boosted. Anyway, I digress. Insurance can be bought at most stations for a price. It's not like it would be difficult for capsuleers to get if we eliminated basic insurance. I just think it's time the Secure Commerce Commission stopped rewarding people for getting destroyed. Note: There was a previous topic from 2012 here - I'm not talking about getting rid of ALL insurance, just the basic automatic insurance that everyone gets for free.
You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
385
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Posted - 2016.01.19 14:21:30 -
[25] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.
He's advocating for the removal of "basic" insurance, the sort that you don't buy, but the kind that pays you out when you lose your ship regardless if you bought a policy or not.
I don't know if that changes your response any, but you said "removing insurance", when he's just asking for the removal of free insurance. He outright said he wants to keep other insurances that you pay for. So if someone is risk adverse, they can still buy a policy.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
400
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Posted - 2016.01.19 15:54:46 -
[26] - Quote
while we're at it, can insurance instead of paying isk, pay out minerals/moongoo? - so if you get top insurance on a T1 ship, you can then go and find a ME 10 BPC, and make a new ship for only the cost of the run?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17124
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Posted - 2016.01.19 18:37:35 -
[27] - Quote
morion wrote:With market history in game going back only 1 year. I can not see that with my eyes.
Info is there if you know where to look, I still have a load of old EON mags with prices in them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1588
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Posted - 2016.01.19 19:21:59 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:morion wrote:With market history in game going back only 1 year. I can not see that with my eyes. Info is there if you know where to look, I still have a load of old EON mags with prices in them.
Even if it's accurate (which I kind of doubt), it's incomplete.
Most ships, as well as pretty much all T2 modules, have had their build inputs directly altered in that timeframe. Metamaterials were introduced, tiericide saw material costs normalized across entire classes, generally with the "bad" ships being brought up closer to the requirements for the "Good" ships, etc.
You can't actually just look at a number from yesteryear and a number today and attribute the difference to inflationary action.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2906
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Posted - 2016.01.19 21:12:25 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.
Entirely related to CCP's changes to build requirements, build costs, introduction of supers which massively inflated the demand for trit, etc. As you very well know. Every price hike in the mineral market has happened as a direct response to a CCP change, not a gradual sneak of inflation. Trying to pretend otherwise as one of the main null cartels just shows how much you want this to step on the small guy, since the 'income stream' from this is at most 5% of what Null ratting brings in. Even if we attribute nearly all insurance payouts to basic payment. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17125
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Posted - 2016.01.20 11:37:53 -
[30] - Quote
Doesn't matter how the prices have risen it doesn't change the fact that they have, OP's idea will change very little in the long run. Fact is that prices have gone up a lot over the years and there is an awful lot of isk sloshing about out there.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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