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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
382
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Posted - 2016.01.26 22:21:20 -
[61] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction. ISK appears in the game through in-game activities done with active game-time. Ignore the term "AUR" - what I'm concerned about is the trade of an in-game item between two players (other than game-time which has it's own real-world cost to acquire) involving a real-world cost.
So you are concerned about PLEX trades since they are trade of in game items that can only be created by the involvement of real-world cost.
No, I specifically excluded PLEX in the parentheses of my statement you quoted. PLEX is simply a placeholder for game-time. I'm not concerned about trades involving game-time.
Scenario #1: I acquire game-time from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. I can then trade that game-time (in the form of a PLEX, for example) to another player for no additional real-world cost. It's up to me and the other play to come to an agreement on the details of the trade. Great!
Scenario #2: I acquire SP via training, which involves a real-world currency cost that CCP gets. I can then take the in-game action of trading that SP (in the form of a Skill Injector) only by paying CCP an additional real-world cost. That makes me uncomfortable.
Scenario #3: I acquire an in-game object that is a vanity item (eg, a SKIN) from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. Nothing further that I am able to do with that object requires an additional real-world cost. Great again!
Scenario #4: I acquire an in-game object that can affect the abilities of a character (eg, a Skill Extractor) from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. This too makes me uncomfortable.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback to all who have replied. Instead of continuing to try to clarify my concerns which I feel I'm doing a bad job of, since I'm not trying to convince anybody to agree with my view I will instead take away from this that most people who have objections to SP trading is because they are concerned about the results of the trades, rather than any real-world cost associated with it, and I will cease posting in this thread. o/
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4447
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Posted - 2016.01.26 22:25:47 -
[62] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction.
This also true with PLEX. Plex was a drop during frostline. Possibly other events.
And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts? History suggests you could be quite wrong.
Quote:Finally, the rate of price increase broke whatever threshold DrEyjoG considers to be "too fast" and he stepped in, carefully injecting PLEX from banned accounts into the market, and stabilizing the price.
And prior to Frostline PLEX rarely entered the game, if ever, except by having somebody pay RL money for them.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:51:37 -
[63] - Quote
Olivia Moon wrote: I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that. It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.
Don't see that as an issue, you could already buy a character, so the degrading you are talking about happened years ago.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4447
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Posted - 2016.01.26 22:53:52 -
[64] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Anyway, thank you for the feedback to all who have replied. Instead of continuing to try to clarify my concerns which I feel I'm doing a bad job of, since I'm not trying to convince anybody to agree with my view I will instead take away from this that most people who have objections to SP trading is because they are concerned about the results of the trades, rather than any real-world cost associated with it, and I will cease posting in this thread. o/
Great because you haven't clarified Jack ****.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:29:49 -
[65] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?
I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.
Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.
PLEX can be created when required.
If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen. |
DaReaper
Net 7
2748
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:38:57 -
[66] - Quote
Varro Octavius wrote:This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.
This system is not pay 2 win, it's pay for convenience, and with the diminishing returns at higher skill points it's a lot harder to abuse unless you have trillions of isk.
All the games I've played where the time-scale to reach the top 1% of stats is now longer than the actually worth of playing the game have slowly but surely diminished. I'll still log on and say hello once in a while but if that 1% becomes out of reach due to work/RL stuff then interest is lost. EVE needs this system to give newer players the incentive to go all the way in EVE and keep the game alive.
this is an illusion, there is no safety net made by skills. none. no advantage in any real way made by skills, none. i can be killed by a noob or a vet with an equal %. So yea sorry but skill points do not matter in eve, never have never will.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Captain Tardbar
Interstellar Incorporated
1142
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:08:17 -
[67] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Varro Octavius wrote:This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.
This system is not pay 2 win, it's pay for convenience, and with the diminishing returns at higher skill points it's a lot harder to abuse unless you have trillions of isk.
All the games I've played where the time-scale to reach the top 1% of stats is now longer than the actually worth of playing the game have slowly but surely diminished. I'll still log on and say hello once in a while but if that 1% becomes out of reach due to work/RL stuff then interest is lost. EVE needs this system to give newer players the incentive to go all the way in EVE and keep the game alive. this is an illusion, there is no safety net made by skills. none. no advantage in any real way made by skills, none. i can be killed by a noob or a vet with an equal %. So yea sorry but skill points do not matter in eve, never have never will.
If player with level 4 drone skill meets a player with level 5 drone skill in the same exact ship, the level 5 player will win.
However, I have my personal doubts that any player would willfully leave drones at level 4.
Anyways... This is intended to let new players buy their way into high level characters. Technically they could already do this with the character bazaar, but now they can create new characters with clean corp history and then ruin these characters ganking and awoxing and then recycle the characters again when done..
Since this will involve a lot of awoxing in established null sec alliances, I'm all for it.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4447
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Posted - 2016.01.27 00:31:34 -
[68] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?
I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for. Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game. PLEX can be created when required. If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.
1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's. 2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access. 3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.
So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.
To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4447
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:53:16 -
[69] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
If player with level 4 drone skill meets a player with level 5 drone skill in the same exact ship, the level 5 player will win.
Well, there are some possible mitigating factors here. If one guy turns on his MWD and the other does notGǪ.
Quote:However, I have my personal doubts that any player would willfully leave drones at level 4.
Specialization skills will likely sit at 4 for awhile.
Quote:Anyways... This is intended to let new players buy their way into high level characters. Technically they could already do this with the character bazaar, but now they can create new characters with clean corp history and then ruin these characters ganking and awoxing and then recycle the characters again when done..
Only at a cost. You cannot drain SP below 5 million. Further, to go over 5 million youGÇÖll incur decreasing marginal returns. So if you start out with 50 million, your next character will be down to 37 million SP. The next one will be down to 30.6 million and the next will be around 25.48 million.
That is a pretty heavy price to pay, IMO. IGÇÖd estimate the costs to be 12.3-59 billion in lost SP depending on how you measure the price of SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:57:28 -
[70] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?
I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for. Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game. PLEX can be created when required. If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen. 1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's. 2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access. 3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past. So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet. To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.
PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted.
When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it.
CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly.
Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4447
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 05:35:43 -
[71] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?
I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for. Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game. PLEX can be created when required. If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen. 1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's. 2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access. 3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past. So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet. To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account. PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted. When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it. CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly. Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community.
PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.
If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó.
Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Kuetlzelcoatl
25
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 05:51:21 -
[72] - Quote
One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.
I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.
All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
483
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 06:58:08 -
[73] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.
Absolutely CCP can just delete PLEX from a banned account. 100%. That "I have read and agree to the Service Terms and Conditions" thing you HAD to click on at some point during account creation. Remember that? That's what gives CCP the legal authority to delete assets from their game as they see fit.
Banning an account for breaches of the ToU/EULA effectively removes EVERYTHING associated with that account from New Eden. Their SP, ISK, assets and PLEX are all forfeit.
CCP is under NO obligation to re-cycle PLEX from banned accounts back into the EVE economy.
It would take a Court of Law ruling to force CCP to act otherwise and such a case would set many, many legal precedents (such as an actual ruling that click through agreements are not legally binding in any way for example).
This would require a player banned from EVE bringing an action against CCP in a *real world* court. Said court case would probably have to be brought in Iceland and it would be a civil matter.
All CCP has to prove is that said account breached the ToU/EULA that said player had agreed to follow.
Case Closed.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 12:11:22 -
[74] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.
If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó.
Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.
I don't think it is a liability on the balance sheet.
You are buying PLEX which is just an in-game object, not really any different from buying an item from an in-game shop.
You wouldn't be able to calculate it as a liability anyway, as PLEX are used for more than just extending a subscription. You wouldn't know exactly how they will be used.
If CCP had to stop trading and it wasn't through gross negligence, they wouldn't have to honour those PLEX.
PLEX in-game only have an isk value and as we know that can fluctuate. So when you extend your game time via PLEX you are using something with an isk value.
The only real problem for CCP would be if, people stopped buying PLEX and more started using in-game PLEX to extend game time. Which is why CCP needs to have more ways to use PLEX so that there isn't such a surplus of them in-game. |
Inotee Tahr
Disciples of Aphrodite The Glory Holers
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 12:55:49 -
[75] - Quote
Skill points != Skill.
You can be the best skilled player and come out as the winning dude on a fresh account, as long as you know what you are doing. Buying skill points won't make you better, it will make you buy more expensive stuff that is lost on the battlefield, which in turn will yield more money to the actually skilled players.
So, yes, skill points might get you faster to the "goal you want", but it wont make you good at it. I see no problems in skill trading. The think that worries me the most, is that i'll end up spending way to much ISK on injectors and go bankrupt.
I will definitely lose some expensive stuff that I don't even know how to use properly in the upcoming future. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2523
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:29:57 -
[76] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?
I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for. Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game. PLEX can be created when required. If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen. 1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's. 2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access. 3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past. So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet. To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account. PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted. When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it. CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly. Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community. PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no. If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó. Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.
If they become the "owner" of the liability, it kind of stop mattering. It's like they own themselves 30 days of game time. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong about "forgetting" that you owe yourself some "value".
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2523
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:33:02 -
[77] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.
If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó.
Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.
I don't think it is a liability on the balance sheet. You are buying PLEX which is just an in-game object, not really any different from buying an item from an in-game shop. You wouldn't be able to calculate it as a liability anyway, as PLEX are used for more than just extending a subscription. You wouldn't know exactly how they will be used. If CCP had to stop trading and it wasn't through gross negligence, they wouldn't have to honour those PLEX. PLEX in-game only have an isk value and as we know that can fluctuate. So when you extend your game time via PLEX you are using something with an isk value. The only real problem for CCP would be if, people stopped buying PLEX and more started using in-game PLEX to extend game time. Which is why CCP needs to have more ways to use PLEX so that there isn't such a surplus of them in-game.
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:44:35 -
[78] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same.
Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.
PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object. |
Officer Pressly
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:51:07 -
[79] - Quote
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.
I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.
All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.
They dont want to see the benefits, they are just complaining about something they think they dont like. Nothing new tbh. I think this is one of the better changes in a long time. Its a good isk sink. It doesnt add sp. And it gives options you didnt have before, unless you bougth another character. This lets you keep the uniqeness of Your character, and lets you fix stuff, when changes come. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2525
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 16:32:05 -
[80] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same. Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value. PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.
It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card". |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2525
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 16:33:43 -
[81] - Quote
Officer Pressly wrote:Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.
I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.
All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.
They dont want to see the benefits, they are just complaining about something they think they dont like. Nothing new tbh. I think this is one of the better changes in a long time. Its a good isk sink. It doesnt add sp. And it gives options you didnt have before, unless you bougth another character. This lets you keep the uniqeness of Your character, and lets you fix stuff, when changes come.
It's not an ISK sink. The only sinked ISK from this will be the usual sales tax on the market and/or contract creation cost which mean no new sink at all. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 16:52:44 -
[82] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same. Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value. PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object. It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card".
PLEX is an object that can access a few services, but it doesn't make it something that will make it a liability on the balance sheet.
Shop gift cards are an IOU and have a monetary value which will effect a balance sheet. But I just don't see that with PLEX.
I still say with PLEX, PLEX isn't an IOU, it's an object that can be used in several ways. When buying PLEX that is what you are buying, the PLEX. Because other than the initial payment to buy the PLEX it's only dealing in virtual currency. PLEX can move between multiple players before it is used where it is removed from the game. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2525
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 17:23:17 -
[83] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same. Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value. PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object. It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card". PLEX is an object that can access a few services, but it doesn't make it something that will make it a liability on the balance sheet. Shop gift cards are an IOU and have a monetary value which will effect a balance sheet. But I just don't see that with PLEX. I say with PLEX, PLEX isn't an IOU, it's an object that can be used in several ways. When buying PLEX that is what you are buying, the PLEX. Because other than the initial payment to buy the PLEX it's only dealing in virtual currency. PLEX can move between multiple players before it is used where it is removed from the game.
The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 17:29:57 -
[84] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.
The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2525
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Posted - 2016.01.27 17:50:11 -
[85] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.
The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.
So is the PLEX. You don't see it as monetary value but the game time has a monetary value and so does the aurums, dual training tokens or any other stuff you can use a PLEX for. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
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Posted - 2016.01.27 18:26:51 -
[86] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.
The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil. So is the PLEX. You don't see it as monetary value but the game time has a monetary value and so does the aurums, dual training tokens or any other stuff you can use a PLEX for.
Game time - can cost anything CCP sees fit either real currency or isk (PLEX). Although they have to try and stay competitive as well as profitable.
Aurum - You can buy it with real currency, but can you sell it for real currency? No.
CCP put a sales price on PLEX when they sell them (whatever they feel is the right price). But when you redeem the PLEX into the game their value is isk and what that value is depends on the in-game market.
You can make comparisons between isk and real currency and some people do. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still only worth isk. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4449
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Posted - 2016.01.27 18:47:54 -
[87] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If they become the "owner" of the liability, it kind of stop mattering. It's like they own themselves 30 days of game time. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong about "forgetting" that you owe yourself some "value".
Technically, CCP owns all PLEX in the game...if they thus own the liability as you and others are implying why they are listed on CCP's balance sheet is then a bit of a mystery suggesting that this is not the full story.
In any event, nothing that you or others have written suggest that CCP cannot use these PLEX (paid for by RL money by other people) for their own purposes in game, such as for market interventions, loot drops, etc.
So the notion that PLEX are "magically" appearing in game and not via a RL cash transaction and thus are somehow different than the SP extractor/injectors purchased via AUR has not been established.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4449
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Posted - 2016.01.27 18:50:11 -
[88] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same. Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value. PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.
It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
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Posted - 2016.01.27 19:04:01 -
[89] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Not sure that is the same. Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value. PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object. It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.
It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.
They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.
Edit:
Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4454
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Posted - 2016.01.27 19:29:50 -
[90] - Quote
In any eventGǪgiven we are arguing over a technicality relating to PLEX, I think it is safe to say the OPGÇÖs original concerns are not really valid.
As for devaluing SP, if anything this change is more likely to work in the opposite direction. A very wealthy player who wants to get to the end of a skill he did not previously have he may very well GÇ£sinkGÇ¥ a lot of SP out of the game making the remaining SP in the game more valuable not less.
As for limits and regulation of a new marketGǪ.having worked in an industry that is very, very heavily regulated my initial reaction is, GǣNO!Gǥ Either come up with a compelling case as to why because such a regulation could set up the very thing I mentioned earlier, that it ends up inadvertently benefitting one group of players over all the rest and destabilizing the game.
Many of the fears expressed by people are almost child-like. People having hysterics over the super-rich parading around their 300 million SP characters andGǪ.???? We have no idea how liquid the SP market will be. We can look at the character bazaar, but that information is not easily quantified and is likely only a subset of characters being bought and sold. Other markets that are similar, such as the AUR token market in Jita is not very liquid at all.
Further, while there might be some players who have characters theyGÇÖll be willing to drain SP from, to some extent it will depend on the details. Suppose you have mining V on your PvP character and want to get rid of itGǪwell you wonGÇÖt be able to fill up a SP extractor/injector with that. It is just 256,000 SP. Can you still use the extractor or do you need to find another 244,000 SP you need to drain? Is there another 244,000 SP on that character to drain? I donGÇÖt plan on draining many currently trained skills on my characters, even oneGÇÖs that after say changes to carriers might be far, far less useful or even useless, at least not right away. Because if skill for using capital remote reppers goes away entirelyGǪwill CCP reimburse players with free SPGǪ.or not and leaving our only choice SP extractors? And to continue extracting SP from most if not all of my current characters youGÇÖd have to pay me ALOT of ISKGÇöi.e. I am not going to a seller, and given my main and alt SP levels probably not much of a buyer either, so I wonGÇÖt be helping to make that market liquid.
If the market is illiquid then the fears of 300 million SP characters strutting around in droves is just not going to happen. Even if the market is fairly liquid given one will have to sink far more SP out of the game than they are injecting into their character it is unlikely to be a sustainable or wide spread practice. So not only do we know to what extent there will be a sudden surge 300 million SP characters, the next question isGǪwhat is the effect on the game. A 300 million SP character is not going to be better than 5 50 million SP characters for PvP. In such a contest my money will almost always be on the 5 players with their 50 million SP characters.
And just to be clear, I am not a fan of this proposal. It could turn out to be great. New players can buy SP at a much lower out of pocket cost to get to an SP level that really opens up the game. Older players who sell the SP get more ISK and more people to interact with in the game, and it is all daisies, sunshine and rainbowsGǪ.or it could work out in an unexpectedly bad way as I wrote here. Making big changes to a complex system can often have serious unintended consequences.
Apologies for the wall of text.
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