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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 00:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Chloris on 28/01/2007 00:30:28 Overview
This IPO is for capital to purchase 4 of the new battleship BPOs(1 of each race). I have set up a high sec POS to do researching for me so I would be able to get the blueprint research started right away. I plan to research the ME level to 5 and then start production as soon as that is reached.
The Team
Myself I have been playing EVE for over a year now, got to enjoy some 0.0 action in ASCN IÆm an industrialist at heart and am inspired by other large ship building companies. To be building some of the largest war machines in the universe and supplying a vast war effort is the ultimate for me.
To assist me I have my two alts, Besetti and Casiopia. They can both fly freighters and they used to be in this corporation too but I have put them in NPC corporation so that I can continue to haul even if wardecÆd. I realize I have made them targets but I feel for this IPO I should disclose as much as possible.
The Market
On Average 25 RokhÆs, 15 AbaddonÆs, 13 MaelstromÆs, 12 HyperionÆs have been sold everyday over the last 30 days just in the Forge. With 1 of each blueprint we can produce 6 ships a day, if all ships sold we would generate between $250 million and $300 million a day(depending on market conditions). Which would be $7.5 - $9 billion a month in profit.
If we find we canÆt sell all of our production in The Forge, we do have the ability to haul the finished ships to other trade hubs in order to maximize sales. With the ability to fit 18 ships in each freighter we can effectively move our product around.
Share Details
I have created 200,000 shares and they will be priced at $100,000 each
-60,000 of the shares will stay with the company so that from the dividends we will be able to keep expanding our BPO collection. -20,000 I will keep in return for POS and for my salary. -120,000 will be open to the public($12 Billion total capital raised)
We will use the generated capital to purchase the 4 BPOs($6 billion total), 2 freighters(1 initially, 2 eventually) and the rest of the money will be used to purchase minerals to build the ships. At peak production we will be using around $3 billion in minerals everyday so I would like to be able to keep that part fluid and not run it day by day.
Dividend Structure
Every time I purchase minerals I record it in my spreadsheet and every ship I sell I record the price it sells at, then at the end of the month I will add up all the minerals used and all the ships sold and the difference will be the profit. From the profit I will subtract a maximum of 1.5 days worth of mineral costs(this depends on the amount of minerals I have in stock, if we are out of minerals then a full 1.5 days will be taken from the dividend however if we have enough minerals in stock then nothing will be taken from it). This will allow me to keep production constantly going and also account for any excess minerals that have accumulated during the month.
For example if we make a profit of $8.25 billion for the month and we use $2.5 billion a day in minerals and have no minerals in stock then we would take 1.5 * $2.5 billion = $3.75 billion from the profit. The resultant dividend would be $4.5 billion or $22,500 per share(22.5% ROI).
This allows the company to grow at a brisk pace and will also mean that as we increase our BPO holdings our dividends will increase.
Trust
I know this will be the hardest part but I am willing to work with the investors as much as I can, whether it be allowing you to see the POS or whatever it is I will do what it takes.
To purchase shares please send an evemail to Chloris stating the amount and when I recieve the funds I will transfer the shares as soon as I am able.
Sell order thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=466535&page=1
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.28 04:53:00 -
[2]
1. You're a little late. If you had tried this a few months ago when Revelations came out, you could have made some really decent profit. As in 100% return in two months.
2. Why should I trust you with this much ISK?
3. Apostrophes in plural words are wrong.
4. Have you taken into account undercutting? I wish I could sell 25 Rokhs a day, but the actual numbers are not even of the same order of magnitude.
5. Have you done the math on profit margins? Some of the new BS currently (I'm looking at you, Rokh, selling at 156m each or less) have very low profit margins if not zero, at least in high-volume hubs.
-[23] Member-
Note: Dark Shikari will be away until Sunday. |
Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 05:09:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Chloris on 28/01/2007 05:07:15 1. I wish I had done it sooner but I didn't want to put it off until more ships are introduced so I figured I should get started and see if there is interest for it and perhaps by the time the next ships come I will be in a position to capitalize on it.
2. Besides my word I don't have much to offer on this one, I am relatively old character but not really established so there is a lot of trust involved in this IPO. This is a tough environment for an IPO and if it all falls through I can refund the money but if not then I have a chance to do something I have wanted to do since I started playing.
3. Thanks
4. Those averages I put there were got by adding up all the sales in the market history and doing the average by hand. Obviously it would hard to take all of the daily sales but I was encouraged by the volume of just 1 region, if we sell in 2 or more regions then it should not be difficult to clear our ships.
5. Yes I have done extensive number crunching, I'm not sure where you got your price but in Jita there is no rokh below 164 million. But also as I mentioned I can move ships to where we would get the best price, if it becomes clear we would benefit from moving the production hub then that should not be too hard to do.
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Barbicane
The Gun Club
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Posted - 2007.01.28 06:35:00 -
[4]
Getting 250-300 mil daily profit from selling 6 ships implies you are counting on 40-50 mil profit per ship (average). That's a historically very high profit figure for simple Tech1 battleships and battlecruisers. For how long do you think that kind of profit will be sustainable?
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 06:45:00 -
[5]
I wish I could get 40 million profit per ship but its closer to 10-12 million per ship depending on how lucky you are, the total profits would come from selling 6 of each ship a day, so 24 ships a day.(By the way if anybody would like to see my spreadsheet I used to determine these numbers, I am open to releasing the info. Maybe to only a few people but I don't think this type of info really is all that secret so it shouldn't matter.)
Also about our profit longevity, as long as we keep expanding our BPO collection smartly, we should keep seeing expanding profits so while the margins will most likely go down some, we will be selling more ships and are thus slightly more protected from market slumps.
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Treelox
Amarr Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2007.01.28 07:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chloris Share Details
I have created 200,000 shares and they will be priced at $100,000 each
-60,000 of the shares will stay with the company so that from the dividends we will be able to keep expanding our BPO collection. -20,000 I will keep in return for POS and for my salary. -120,000 will be open to the public($12 Billion total capital raised)
So, you get 2bil isk of shares before you have even done anything for POS? is the POS your putting into the corp worth 2bil?
What about the 6bil in shares that the corp retains for corp growth? What was given/recieved in exchange for those shares? Or were they given free, thus truely lowering the value of the shares bought and paid for by potential investors?
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Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques |
Barbicane
The Gun Club
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Posted - 2007.01.28 07:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Chloris I wish I could get 40 million profit per ship but its closer to 10-12 million per ship depending on how lucky you are, the total profits would come from selling 6 of each ship a day, so 24 ships a day.
Ok. 10-12 mil per ship seems much more sustainable.
Now I only see 2 more weaknesses in your business plan:
1) Building and selling 24 ships per day is quite an operation. Too much for a 1-man outfit? How much time daily are you planning to allocate to this venture?
2) The extremely high ROI projections (compared to other IPOs) come from reinvesting the working capital every couple of days. For this to happen, it's essential that you manage to keep up the high production rate without running into any mineral shortages or slumps in sales. Do you think this is feasible? What happens (to the ROI) if you can only sell 12 ships per day? What happens if the profit margin per ship goes down to 5-6 mil?
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 07:37:00 -
[8]
The shares I received are for salary as well, so this venture is profitable for me too. I don't look at it as 2 billion in gift since it would only be that is I sold them and I treat it as pay for doing all the hard work, it also means I have a vested interest in making sure the company is doing good.
The shares the corp keeps are to allow the corporation to grow as a percentage of the profits so as we do more business it allows us to expand faster. I'm not sure if this dilutes the value of the stock as you say but I'm not very experienced with the RL market so perhaps it does. If I were to sell all the shares to public then the company couldn't grow as fast, if at all, so it seemed to me that having steady reasonable dividends(I'd be happy with 20% or more) that will grow into even more was a better solution.
If you have suggestions for me on this I am all ears, to me this worked best in my head but I'm open to good ideas.
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 07:58:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Chloris on 28/01/2007 07:54:52 Barbicane,
1) Building and selling 24 ships per day is quite an operation. Too much for a 1-man outfit? How much time daily are you planning to allocate to this venture?
It will be quite a logistical challenge but I don't think it will be too hard, I have a lot of time to devote to this project as it is my dream endeavor. Also I have my wife to draw on when I need to slack
2) The extremely high ROI projections (compared to other IPOs) come from reinvesting the working capital every couple of days. For this to happen, it's essential that you manage to keep up the high production rate without running into any mineral shortages or slumps in sales. Do you think this is feasible?
I do, certainly there will be hiccups along the way but generally I don't see anything shutting down production completely or partially for very long.
What happens (to the ROI) if you can only sell 12 ships per day?
Right now I would predict a ROI of 20-25% so halving our ship sales would reduce the ROI to 10-12.5%. I would like to point out though if we ever start to get a backlog of ships, we will definately start shipping them out to other trade hubs so while we may have a few bad days I don't expect that to happen for extended periods of time.
What happens if the profit margin per ship goes down to 5-6 mil?
Again because of the way the dividend is calculated it would be a reduction to 10-12.5%(half) of the predicted ROI, this situation is harder to avoid unlike the previous situation and it will happen over time but to what degree. However even with that extreme a reduction in margin we would still offer a pretty decent return(10%) which would grow larger as well as we increased our BPO hold.
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Treelox
Amarr Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2007.01.28 08:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Chloris Edited by: Chloris on 28/01/2007 07:54:34 Treelox,
The shares I received are for salary as well, so this venture is profitable for me too. I don't look at it as 2 billion in gift since it would only be that is I sold them and I treat it as pay for doing all the hard work, it also means I have a vested interest in making sure the company is doing good.
The shares the corp keeps are to allow the corporation to grow as a percentage of the profits so as we do more business it allows us to expand faster. I'm not sure if this dilutes the value of the stock as you say but I'm not very experienced with the RL market so perhaps it does. If I were to sell all the shares to public then the company couldn't grow as fast, if at all, so it seemed to me that having steady reasonable dividends(I'd be happy with 20% or more) that will grow into even more was a better solution.
If you have suggestions for me on this I am all ears, to me this worked best in my head but I'm open to good ideas.
you dont need shares to reinvest back into the corp, just do it as a fixed percent of profits, before you issue a dividend. By keeping 60k shares in the corp, without having any assests used to secure them, your devauling the face value of the shares your selling. While you expect us to pay 100k isk for a share, they will really only be worth 70% of that, because you have 6bil in shares that were bought for ZERO isk, held by the corp. Far easier and a bit better from the anti-scam point of view if you just stipulate that 30%(or some other percentage) of profits will be retained by the corp for growth purposes. Yes it means you have to do a bit more math, but at least this way your not undervauling your stock from the getgo.
As for your salary and recieving shares, there is no problem with that IF considering you seem to be giving your POS to the venture. As long as the POS is valued at 2bil or close to that. I wholeheartedly agree that having a vested intrest is good for you, and that making a bigger salary based upon preformance is a decent incentive. Of course realise that the first month of this operation, while all the BPO's are in research you wont be making any salary. Then again we the investors wont be making any dividends while research is going on.
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Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques |
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 08:30:00 -
[11]
I see what you are getting at Treelox but since I have the extra shares already created and we only need 12 billion in capital, would you think it best for me to lower the price of the shares and instead sell all 180,000 at a price that would bring in the 12 billion capital?
The current share structure would allow for 30% of the profit for reinvestment so we could adopt that as a standard to use instead of the share structure.
The only downside I see is that shares would be a weird price and so more annoying to buy but I'll leave it up to you guys, if you want me to adopt Treelox's method I will be happy to do so. Also for current investors, do not worry if we decide to lower the share price I will refund you the difference.
For information, the PoS is small with 2 labs and a corp hangar bay so not worth 2 billion.
Have a good night, I'll be back in the morning
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Kasia Pelarar
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Posted - 2007.01.28 13:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Chloris I see what you are getting at Treelox but since I have the extra shares already created and we only need 12 billion in capital, would you think it best for me to lower the price of the shares and instead sell all 180,000 at a price that would bring in the 12 billion capital?
Yes, I think this would be best.
Originally by: Chloris The current share structure would allow for 30% of the profit for reinvestment so we could adopt that as a standard to use instead of the share structure.
Which would mean a dividend payout of 70% of the profit, of which you would receive the equivalent of 7% of the profit.
Originally by: Chloris The only downside I see is that shares would be a weird price and so more annoying to buy but I'll leave it up to you guys, if you want me to adopt Treelox's method I will be happy to do so. Also for current investors, do not worry if we decide to lower the share price I will refund you the difference.
For information, the PoS is small with 2 labs and a corp hangar bay so not worth 2 billion.
I suggest a re-valuing of the POS and the shares. I am not sure of POS prices, but the following example maintains a similar ratio of shares (except the retained shares are now saleable). If you take 4,615 less shares that would mean there would be 184,615 shares for sale at (for ease) 65,000 ISK each, raising 11,999,975,000 ISK capital (25K short of the magic 12B). The remaining 15,385 shares paying for the POS and your salary would then be valued at 1,000,0250,000 ISK and be 7.69% rather than 10% of total shares. You could then purchase extra shares at the 65K price if needed, to satisfy investors' need to know shares were being paid for. That is just an example - change the figures to suit. Just what I think is required is a indication that everything is being paid for and receiving its (near to) value.
Originally by: Chloris Have a good night, I'll be back in the morning
Afternoon here, now :)
Eve Share & Market Reporting (ESMaR) |
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.01.28 13:40:00 -
[13]
This has scam written all over it. You have presented us with a character who was in ASCN and imply this should be a reason for us to trust you. Well its not. Characters are bought and sold everyday, you need references too. The fact your an old character means absolutely squat. It is NOT a reason to trust you.
The fact is there is nothing to stop you running away with the money. No references are present to confirm your not gonna do that. The only thing we have is a 10 minutes typed business plan that says we should trust you. There is no evidence you know what your talking about. Its obvious you haven't read too many business plans and scam stories as your own plan is the bare minimum. If someone in my own corp came to me with that, I wouldn't invest.
So, for now, I'm certainly not going to invest in your corp and urge others not to either.
However, if you are legit then stop what your doing, refund shares that have been sold so far (if any). Then do some research. Read through various IPO threads. Listen to what investors say about good and bad ideas and about scams. Take this into account and come up with a new approach. The actualy business model may or may not be valid, remember the t1 market CAN and WILL eventually correct itself. Supply is still increasing daily so you have to look at that in your plan too.
Bottom line, this business plan is no good enough. Raise your standards and effort and come back.
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Barbicane
The Gun Club
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:40:00 -
[14]
Whoa, Shin Ra. You can't keep on accusing every unproven businessman of being a scammer. At least let him know what sort of information you need from him. Personally I think he had a pretty good business plan although overly optimistic in some parts. There are a few things in there that make me think "scam!", but there are also several other things that make it look genuine. Either way, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance to prove his good intentions before calling him a scammer. It's just common decency.
@OP: Shin Ra is right in this: You do need someone to vouch for you. Your former CEO perhaps? Additionally, I think 12B isk is too much to ask for (unless you can provide very good references). Couldn't you do the same thing with 4B initial capital, and then work your way up?
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Robacz
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:27:00 -
[15]
I will buy some shares just to see if you really can build, move and sell 24 BS per day in 1 man corp... it would be quite an achievement.
Anyway good luck.
___________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, BCs, Cruisers |
Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:03:00 -
[16]
Morning all,
From the posts here and the evemails I have received it seems most investors would like to go with the way Treelox presented. However before we do that I wanted to ask how people feel about Barbicane's idea of a smaller IPO to start with. Perhaps instead of starting with 4 BPOs, we could halve the IPO and start with 2, this would allow for smaller risk and give me the time to prove myself.
Shin Ra,
I don't think there is anything I could do to convince you I'm not a scam, I was only in ASCN for a short while, while they were at war so any references from them would just be verifying that I am still indeed the same player but still that would not provide any insurance against me scamming.
However, if you are legit then stop what your doing, refund shares that have been sold so far (if any). Then do some research. Read through various IPO threads. Listen to what investors say about good and bad ideas and about scams. Take this into account and come up with a new approach.
Even if I did this, I would still fall under your umbrella as scammer though, I would prefer to keep going with this IPO and with guidance from people like you and other potential investors work to make it viable. Perhaps the smaller IPO amount would be a smart solution to this as it would still allow for future growth but not be such a large risk.
What do you guys think?
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:27:00 -
[17]
why do u keep reffering to urself as "we"?
room to spare... no idea besides this bs :)
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:30:00 -
[18]
We as in the corporation.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Robacz I will buy some shares just to see if you really can build, move and sell 24 BS per day in 1 man corp... it would be quite an achievement.
Anyway good luck.
It isn't difficult. I've done 18 BS a day and 40 BCs a day with about half an hour a day of work. Possible? Sure. You need lots of ISK though for minerals.
-[23] Member-
Note: Dark Shikari will be away until Sunday. |
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.01.28 20:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Barbicane Whoa, Shin Ra. You can't keep on accusing every unproven businessman of being a scammer. At least let him know what sort of information you need from him. Personally I think he had a pretty good business plan although overly optimistic in some parts. There are a few things in there that make me think "scam!", but there are also several other things that make it look genuine. Either way, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance to prove his good intentions before calling him a scammer. It's just common decency.
@OP: Shin Ra is right in this: You do need someone to vouch for you. Your former CEO perhaps? Additionally, I think 12B isk is too much to ask for (unless you can provide very good references). Couldn't you do the same thing with 4B initial capital, and then work your way up?
I can and I will. Its guilty until proven innocent in this business.
Out of the tens of thousands of people who play this game, I find it strange that there is not 1 person you have known for any period of time that will vouce for you.
Even if your did start smaller, you still need to give a lot more detail as to how you calculate profits. I'd like to see a list of materials needed per ship, average costs, shipment times/effort, and exact figure on how many ships you can make per month, how you plan to compete with people who have their BPO at ME:30 and what will happen to sales/production figures if the market continues to become saturated. Exit strategy is also necessary.
Without any references there can be no trust. Your only option, imho, is to work with someone who has a reputation in this field to get some sort of backing (including making sure your can't access locked down BPOs). Look around, I'm sure you will find people willing to help.
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 21:30:00 -
[21]
Hey Shin Ra,
I'd like to see a list of materials needed per ship, average costs, shipment times/effort, and exact figure on how many ships you can make per month, how you plan to compete with people who have their BPO at ME:30 and what will happen to sales/production figures if the market continues to become saturated. Exit strategy is also necessary.
Could you evemail me a email address for me to send you my excel spreadsheet that I used?
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.01.28 22:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chloris Hey Shin Ra,
I'd like to see a list of materials needed per ship, average costs, shipment times/effort, and exact figure on how many ships you can make per month, how you plan to compete with people who have their BPO at ME:30 and what will happen to sales/production figures if the market continues to become saturated. Exit strategy is also necessary.
Could you evemail me a email address for me to send you my excel spreadsheet that I used?
Upload them to eve files and post them in your original thread for all to see.
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Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.28 22:25:00 -
[23]
I have run out of characters in my first post so I need to add it here, I did add as much as I could about finding the link but that was the last of my characters.
*Note about downloading it, eve-files instantly deleted all the .xls files I uploaded so I renamed the file to .jpg and it allowed it, so to view it just rename it .xls and it should work fine*
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0701/GEOSTWorksheetEVEIPO.jpg
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.29 00:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Chloris I have run out of characters in my first post so I need to add it here, I did add as much as I could about finding the link but that was the last of my characters.
*Note about downloading it, eve-files instantly deleted all the .xls files I uploaded so I renamed the file to .jpg and it allowed it, so to view it just rename it .xls and it should work fine*
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0701/GEOSTWorksheetEVEIPO.jpg
Just use MediaFire, it doesn't have any restrictions.
-[23] Member-
Note: Dark Shikari will be away until Sunday. |
Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.29 03:07:00 -
[25]
The shares have been repriced at $60,000 each, the company will retain no shares now and there is a slight change to the dividend structure that will allow for continued company growth.
All current investors have been refunded the difference and I look forward to any other discussion.
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2007.01.29 10:23:00 -
[26]
I currently have a rock bpo availeble that already has some me (9 I think)
If you wish you could contact me and maybe we can come to a deal where part of the bpo is payed for in isk and part is payed for in shares.
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Ferrosa
Gallente Lyonesse Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.29 13:38:00 -
[27]
I really hope you can get:
- Isogen4.887.918
- Megacyte63.636
- Mexallon18.839.808
- Nocxium1.264.416
- Pyerite81.342.354
- Tritanium312.784.776
- Zydrine280.584
every single day...
This is not easy and will take up lots of your time. Good luck on the venture, I might buy some shares to show my support to new, ambitious businessmen in the world of EVE and offcourse to make some cash in the process
Official broker at the EGSE
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Barbicane
The Gun Club
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Posted - 2007.01.29 18:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Chloris ...I was only in ASCN for a short while, while they were at war so any references from them would just be verifying that I am still indeed the same player but still that would not provide any insurance against me scamming...
I would buy some shares but I'm still waiting for some sort of confirmation that you are legit. Quotes from former corp mates (preferably some who have been around for a long time and have a reputation to care for) saying what a great guy you are would be a start.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.29 20:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ferrosa I really hope you can get:
- Isogen4.887.918
- Megacyte63.636
- Mexallon18.839.808
- Nocxium1.264.416
- Pyerite81.342.354
- Tritanium312.784.776
- Zydrine280.584
every single day...
This is not easy and will take up lots of your time.
What do you mean, not easy? It takes roughly 30 seconds, maybe a minute if Jita is overly laggy.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Chloris
Caldari Geostationary Orbiteers
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Posted - 2007.01.30 01:48:00 -
[30]
So some pretty interesting news for today. Lord Darkness has offered to give the company his Maelstrom(ME10, PE1) and Hyperion(ME10, PE4) BPOs in exchange for NPC price of the BPOs worth of shares. As part of the deal he would come into the corporation with me to help in the day to day runnings. As an added bonus he owns a freighter already too
Before I accept his offer though, I wanted to inform the investors and see if you feel it would be the right move.
P.S. I'm keeping my eye out for you Martosh, possibly interested in your deal.
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