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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
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Posted - 2016.02.10 21:32:16 -
[61] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Most of you are either really simple or just playing dumb.
Think, "Big Picture".
Since Day One CCP has pounded the value of 1:1 skill training, no exceptions!
Those skills were paid for through monthly subscriptions, plain and simple. (Most of you never even knew training before the Training Queue) You actually had to log in all the time to check/change your skills. I remember calling my wife from work and walking her through the process.
So, now they're saying those SP's aren't that valuable?
You can't have it both ways and you can't explain away the science behind it. Those SP earned from that method aren't changing. It's the ones liberated from that mechanism that introduce loss. That leaves aside the fact that prior to this mechanic there were potential losses which already violated the idea of "no exceptions."
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:10:39 -
[62] - Quote
Gauis Aldent wrote:What they are saying is, if you decide to inject more SP in your head through these new highly accelerated methods, that there is a diminishing return involved. You can't just inject and inject and inject and expect it to keep working like it did the first time. There is a reason normal skill training is slow. Using the same technical basis for your argument, explain why "on the first injection" a 10m SP player will get 1:1 but a 60m SP player will get 3:5.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:16:36 -
[63] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Those SP earned from that method aren't changing. It's the ones liberated from that mechanism that introduce loss. That leaves aside the fact that prior to this mechanic there were potential losses which already violated the idea of "no exceptions." A loss through not having an up to date clone or T3 loss?
Those are slightly more dramatic and don't involve a medical procedure inside of a sterile lab.
The T3 loss tied to SP loss was one of the worst ideas ever.
Your argument is invalid.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1856
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:19:33 -
[64] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Those SP earned from that method aren't changing. It's the ones liberated from that mechanism that introduce loss. That leaves aside the fact that prior to this mechanic there were potential losses which already violated the idea of "no exceptions." A loss through not having an up to date clone or T3 loss? Those are slightly more dramatic and don't involve a medical procedure inside of a sterile lab. The T3 loss tied to SP loss was one of the worst ideas ever.Your argument is invalid.
No amount of fairy-tale roleplay rationalizations are going to get you lossless transfers.
You're not supposed to be able to losslessly remap your own SP. Decisions in Eve are supposed to have enduring consequence. In this case, wanting to remap your SP comes at the cost of a portion of that SP.
Get the **** over it.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
620
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:21:09 -
[65] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Using the same technical basis for your argument, explain why "on the first injection" a 10m SP player will get 1:1 but a 60m SP player will get 3:5.
Because the way veteran players would abuse this to max out skills for specific fittings in specific scenarios is insane. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:26:19 -
[66] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Those SP earned from that method aren't changing. It's the ones liberated from that mechanism that introduce loss. That leaves aside the fact that prior to this mechanic there were potential losses which already violated the idea of "no exceptions." A loss through not having an up to date clone or T3 loss? Those are slightly more dramatic and don't involve a medical procedure inside of a sterile lab. The T3 loss tied to SP loss was one of the worst ideas ever.Your argument is invalid. Agreed that the T3 loss mechanic was poorly conceived, though that doesn't and can't invalidate that it exists and has, along with clone grade related losses in the past, reduced SP which you claimed was a violation of a longstanding central theme about the value of skill training. The argument is as valid as the prior existence of those mechanics. You can't just pretend facts do not count at your convenience.
pajedas wrote:Using the same technical basis for your argument, explain why "on the first injection" a 10m SP player will get 1:1 but a 60m SP player will get 3:5. @ 10mill SP the return is 4:5 rather than 1:1. The reason the 60mill player has a lower return is due to the ability to extract and reallocate to the same character and prevent 55mill in perfect reallocation from becoming a reality. Instead their past decisions limit them to a maximum of 44 mill reallocatable, which is still very good considering the potential possibilities with that SP, as opposed to the 10 mill character's 4 mill. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:31:26 -
[67] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:you claimed was a violation of a longstanding central theme about the value of skill training. When did I make that claim?
Wait, let me tell you.
Never.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:38:02 -
[68] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:you claimed was a violation of a longstanding central theme about the value of skill training. When did I make that claim? Wait, let me tell you. Never. So you aren't arguing that something other than skill training is violating the principle of skill training by providing a mechanism of loss?
Or was the statement "Since Day One CCP has pounded the value of 1:1 skill training, no exceptions!" not intended to be relevant to skill injection since it's not training? If so what was the point in stating it? |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:47:08 -
[69] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So you aren't arguing that something other than skill training is violating the principle of skill training by providing a mechanism of loss?
Or was the statement "Since Day One CCP has pounded the value of 1:1 skill training, no exceptions!" not intended to be relevant to skill injection since it's not training? If so what was the point in stating it? You're trying so hard to make this something that's it's not. What's your inspiration?
If you can't differentiate the difference between loss by death, which was found to be flawed (due to technology) and changed. Now if you get podded you don't lose those skills that you paid to train.
How is that the same as profit driven systematic elimination of trained SP's?
While we're at it, why not introduce the probability of losing SP's (memory) through drug use? We all know that drugs kill brain cells.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1856
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Posted - 2016.02.10 23:53:45 -
[70] - Quote
pajedas wrote:
If you can't differentiate the difference between loss by death, which was found to be flawed (due to technology) and changed.
Med clones were removed because they effectively added an escalating cost-of-living to PvP. This being a PvP game, a mechanic that actively discouraged it by doing nothing but adding an expense that had to be met to PvP was deemed to be poor for gameplay.
This, along with the lack of meaningful decisions to be made regarding med clones (the correct answer was ALWAYS to upgrade your clone after a podding) is why they were removed.
Neither of these issues exist with skill injectors.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:01:31 -
[71] - Quote
pajedas wrote:You're trying so hard to make this something that's it's not. What's your inspiration? None needed. It's been more directly explained why the diminishing returns exist, but the idea of simple 1:1 accumulation (which is still debatable since someone with +5s outpaces me) without interference of any kind or "exceptions" doesn't exist.
pajedas wrote:If you can't differentiate the difference between loss by death, which was found to be flawed (due to technology) and changed. Now if you get podded you don't lose those skills that you paid to train. Never said they were the same, simply addressed the specific claim as presented.
pajedas wrote:How is that the same as profit driven systematic elimination of trained SP's? How much of a profit driver is a mechanic which only effects the demand side when it's the supply side driving most of the revenue? It should also be considered that the more this affects you the higher your earning potential in game is possibly eliminating the need for you to contribute additional revenue.
pajedas wrote:While we're at it, why not introduce the probability of losing SP's (memory) through drug use? We all know that drugs kill brain cells. Separate topic, but if you want to penalize booster use make a proposal. I have no real opinion on such a mechanic either way.
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:11:47 -
[72] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I have nothing to add but love to argue. Dear CCP,
Please explain why your scientists are unable to transfer skills without loss.
I can jump countless light years to a clone without losing any...
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1910
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:22:12 -
[73] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I have nothing to add but love to argue. Dear CCP, Please explain why your scientists are unable to transfer skills without loss. I can jump countless light years to a clone without losing any... You do realize you asked for science from the space submarine sim where neck needles physically extract tangible, general purpose knowledge patterns that were somehow inextricably tied to a particular capacity while in the prior owners head, right?
Just asking because at some point one has to realize that "science" is whatever they make up to justify the mechanic when it comes to the parts that don't exist. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:26:34 -
[74] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Just asking because at some point one has to realize that "science" is whatever they make up to justify the mechanic when it comes to the parts that don't exist. That was my whole point. It can't be explained.
You're a little slow on the uptake, aren't you?
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1910
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:28:17 -
[75] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Just asking because at some point one has to realize that "science" is whatever they make up to justify the mechanic when it comes to the parts that don't exist. That was my whole point. It can't be explained. You're a little slow on the uptake, aren't you? It can't be explained no matter what the particulars of the mechanic are, but I guess that only matters when you aren't getting what you specifically want.
Tell you what: "issues with synaptic pathway density interfering with the sudden application of new patterns causing loss as the more numerous existing pathways must be reworked to accommodate the new patterns while maintaining the integrity of the old ones, which is a great deal more difficult than simply 'photocopying' the existing patterns over to a blank slate or overriding old patterns"
That's how easy this is to just hand wave away. Yet that's what you're asking for. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:40:05 -
[76] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It can't be explained no matter what the particulars of the mechanic are, but I guess that only matters when you aren't getting what you specifically want. You sir, are a royal pain the the arse.
I've established that all things (in Eve) are possible with the stroke of a keyboard. Therefore, the only possible explanation is that CCP did the math and predicted an optimal revenue stream with this path.
I already know the answers and the questions weren't meant for you.
So, why are you struggling so hard to carry the torch for CCP?
Stock options?
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1910
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Posted - 2016.02.11 00:55:11 -
[77] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I've established that all things (in Eve) are possible with the stroke of a keyboard. And it's been explained to you why that wasn't done several times.
pajedas wrote:Therefore, the only possible explanation is that CCP did the math and predicted an optimal revenue stream with this path. Maybe, and maybe as stated they didn't want perfect respec'ing SP behemoths to be a trivial reality as already posted several times.
pajedas wrote:I already know the answers and the questions weren't meant for you. Then why did you post them here where the focus is player discussion? Also how can you be so sure you know when it's pretty clear to most others that there is a different factor at play?
Further, why would you even ask a question suited for the eve fiction group when your concern is some misplaced notion of profit milking from the players least in need to spend money to participate?
pajedas wrote:So, why are you struggling so hard to carry the torch for CCP?
Stock options? Pretty sure CCPs stock is privately held now, or rather I thought I read something to that effect.
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
620
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Posted - 2016.02.11 01:34:39 -
[78] - Quote
pajedas wrote: You sir, are a royal pain the the arse.
I've established that all things (in Eve) are possible with the stroke of a keyboard. Therefore, the only possible explanation is that CCP did the math and predicted an optimal revenue stream with this path.
I already know the answers and the questions weren't meant for you.
So, why are you struggling so hard to carry the torch for CCP?
Stock options?
You've point-blank ignored this question twice in this thread so far, so one more time. If what you say is true, why did CCP:
* get rid of SP loss on clone death * let people lose SPs when they forget to re-activate queues * use less than L5 training implants
I look forward to you ignoring my question again, you troll you. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
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Posted - 2016.02.11 02:27:14 -
[79] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:You've point-blank ignored this question twice in this thread so far, so one more time. If what you say is true, why did CCP:
* get rid of SP loss on clone death * let people lose SPs when they forget to re-activate queues * use less than L5 training implants
I look forward to you ignoring my question again, you troll you. 1) It was a stupid mechanic. 2) It was a stupid mechanic. 3) I have no idea what you mean.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
299
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Posted - 2016.02.11 02:47:23 -
[80] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Gauis Aldent wrote:What they are saying is, if you decide to inject more SP in your head through these new highly accelerated methods, that there is a diminishing return involved. You can't just inject and inject and inject and expect it to keep working like it did the first time. There is a reason normal skill training is slow. Using the same technical basis for your argument, explain why "on the first injection" a 10m SP player will get 1:1 but a 60m SP player will get 3:5.
I started injecting at 12.5+ million sp, at a rate of 400k per injector.
21 injectors later and the sp lost from the game was 2.1 million sp.
Do I care? No, because I knew what I was purchasing.
The only possible reason you would care is if you are trying to transfer between your characters. Then the lost sp would be from your own pool of sp. But even then you know if you are going to transfer it you will lose some, so if you're worried about losing it don't transfer it. |
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
620
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Posted - 2016.02.11 02:49:59 -
[81] - Quote
pajedas wrote: 1) It was a stupid mechanic. 2) It was a stupid mechanic. 3) I have no idea what you mean.
1) it am trying to find a way to back out of what I said that completely invalidates my point 2) it am trying to find a way to back out of what I said that completely invalidates my point 3) do you not know what training implants are?
come on man. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4691
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Posted - 2016.02.11 04:26:53 -
[82] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I have nothing to add but love to argue. Dear CCP, Please explain why your scientists are unable to transfer skills without loss. I can jump countless light years to a clone without losing any...
FFS.
It. Is. A. Game. Balance. Issue.
CCP wants to make it so trying to go from 500,000 SP to 200 million SP has an increasing cost. Also, they don't want people re-specializing their characters instantly to suit their purposes without some form of trade off or cost. Enter the diminishing marginal rate of return on SP injectors.
It has f--- all to do with scientists and Dev concern about game balance. There are lots of things in this game that don't make sense except from a game balance view point. For somebody who has been playing since 2005 you should know this.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1896
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Posted - 2016.02.11 04:40:04 -
[83] - Quote
The SP minigame was always a stupid waste of time.
Personally I like all the weird training my various alts have that they never use anymore, it forms part of that characters history ... "hey look there is that mining foreman he trained way back when he owned an orca before he moved to that lowsec corp" sort of thing.
Then again I have always regarded min-maxing and optimizing in games as a form of OCD insanity anyway.
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Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
111
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Posted - 2016.02.11 08:04:38 -
[84] - Quote
When I started today the basketball goal was ten feet off the ground. Now, it's just a foot and a half and I can look straight down the pipe without jumping! (I thought I'd never be able to slam dunk!)
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7177
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Posted - 2016.02.11 11:14:56 -
[85] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:I have never used more than level 3 learning implants, given I have virtually never been in high sec. I also took a three month break, forgot to cancel one subscription and didn't have anything in the queue. Should I petition CCP because of lost skillpoints for those? After all, they are my god given right, yeah? Supposedly some people actually have petitioned that, and been given SP.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
620
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Posted - 2016.02.11 16:02:31 -
[86] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:I have never used more than level 3 learning implants, given I have virtually never been in high sec. I also took a three month break, forgot to cancel one subscription and didn't have anything in the queue. Should I petition CCP because of lost skillpoints for those? After all, they are my god given right, yeah? Supposedly some people actually have petitioned that, and been given SP.
Now that's just ridiculous. |
Lina Sovereign
Astromechanica Maxima Astromechanica Federatis
3
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Posted - 2016.02.11 16:09:19 -
[87] - Quote
I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4692
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Posted - 2016.02.11 18:59:52 -
[88] - Quote
Lina Sovereign wrote:I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription.
So if I have more SP I will always defeat you?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lina Sovereign
Astromechanica Maxima Astromechanica Federatis
3
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:19:05 -
[89] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lina Sovereign wrote:I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription. So if I have more SP I will always defeat you?
You increase your chances. But it's not a big deal, I started to do PvP, it was fun, now I'll focus on HighSec it's fun too, less stress no risks. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2382
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:08:02 -
[90] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lina Sovereign wrote:I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription. So if I have more SP I will always defeat you? It is pay to win but its been paytowin since plex n character buying were allowed.
if you have more SP likely will beat youre opponent yeah. all other variables being equal. comparisons based on wild inequalities are useless. thats why comparisons are almost always done with only the variable in question being inequal.
Jeff n Joe both sign to EvE, they skill up until they can both fly a Tristan. Joe buys a years worth of skill points and trains all engineering, electronics, weps to 5.
Jeffs about to get his ass kicked. Joe paid to win. Pretty simple.
the only time this is not true is with already trained chars with Tristen related skills maxed.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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