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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2016.02.09 19:27:21 -
[1] - Quote
Currently, the only hauling skills that require significant investment are those for jump freighters which require Industry V, which is usable by multiple professions anyway. Also the jump drive skills are multi-role skills. There is no real hauling-specific training required. For example, for the Epithal and other common haulers it takes only 7 minutes to train them or something like that. Even an Obelisk has a low training requirement and NONE of the requirements for the Obelisk are hauling-specific. They are all skills that are useful in other professions, except Gallente Industrial III, which takes just a few hours to train. The only haulers that require any advanced training are the things like the "blockade" runners that require a level V racial industrial skill, several weeks of training. But these ships are more specialized ships that are rarely used, not the meat and potatoes of hauling.
I think that hauling should be a profession which has significant skill requirements and that the skill system should have heavier, multi-month training requirements for haulers and those requirements should be hauling specific, not generic skills like "advanced spaceship command" that can be used for a lot of different professions.
I am being altruistic here. I am not a hauler. In fact, I am a trader, so the current system benefits me because anybody can be a hauler, so it makes it cheaper for me to get things hauled. So, the changes proposed here would actually make it more expensive for me to move my goods. Nevertheless, I think it would be good for the game to make hauling more specialized, even though it would cost me more money. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10681
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Posted - 2016.02.09 19:41:09 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:I think that hauling should be a profession which has significant skill requirements
I don't know why I'm even bothering responding to your trollery, but let me ask you this: have you trained Racial Freighter IV and Jump Drive Operation V, and not to mention the attendant skills to make a JF flyable? Perhaps a DST or Blockade Runner? No? It seems to me that there is indeed already quite a high level of skill input required before one can fly JFs - that is, presumably, if we take making runs into low/null as a milestone in the career of a hauler.
If a day-old newbie wants to fly a T1 industrial, by all means let them - but please don't pretend that the specialised ships don't require fairly intensive training.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
658
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Posted - 2016.02.09 19:56:31 -
[3] - Quote
speaking as someone who can fly nomads and prowlers/mastodons i feel the training time for them is about right..
They are certainly comparable to other ships of equivalent size... A mastodon and a t2 cruiser have very comparable training times, as do nomads and carriers (although its been YEARS since i skilled for my carrier as a 25m sp nubbie) |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
899
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Posted - 2016.02.09 21:41:03 -
[4] - Quote
I think hauling should stay as it is. Right now hauling has a very healthy level of skill vs reward vs danger enforced by haulers vs demand vs gankers.
As others have stated you have good options for high end hauling ships as you do with low SP industrials. And before someone says something about t1 indies being weak...
You have badger.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:08:40 -
[5] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:I think hauling should stay as it is. Right now hauling has a very healthy level of skill vs reward vs danger enforced by haulers vs demand vs gankers.
As others have stated you have good options for high end hauling ships as you do with low SP industrials. And before someone says something about t1 indies being weak...
You have badger.
Oh, yeah, having to train for 7 minutes, that is a very "healthy" level of skill required. Real tough. Train for 7 minutes to get an Epithal. Real big investment. Huge career decision there. Wow, what a profession, requires a whole 7 minutes to train. Real professional devotion required for that. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1829
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:12:36 -
[6] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:
I don't know why I'm even bothering responding to your trollery
Me neither. Droidster posts are like a PSA on the dangers of sprinkling lead based paint-chips on your morning cereal.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4192
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:23:51 -
[7] - Quote
So how long do you think it should take a brand new character to be able to fly a basic industrial?
And a freighter?
How about a DST? Give us some numbers. And then explain WHY you think it should take that amount of time. |
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:38:44 -
[8] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So how long do you think it should take a brand new character to be able to fly a basic industrial?
And a freighter?
How about a DST? Give us some numbers. And then explain WHY you think it should take that amount of time.
I don't consider an Epithal to be a "basic industrial". A "basic" industrial is a Badger or maybe an Iteron I (which has been removed from the game apparently).
Carrying around 54000 m3 is not a "basic industrial".
If you want to pin my down to specific training time RECOMMENDATIONS:
I think any of the high performance haulers, anything carrying over 10000 m3 should take at least 30 days to train. This is actually the way it used to be, because to do high capacity hauling in the old days you needed an Iteron V which was Gallente Industrial V = 30 days.
The special role haulers, like the Occator should take 30 days in addition to high capacity hauling, so at least 60 days total.
The super capacity haulers like the Obelisk (over 100,000 m3) should be at least 45 days in addition to high capacity hauling training, so 75 days total.
The jump freighters should be 30 days in addition to the jump drive training (which is cross-profession) and high capacity hauling training.
RATIONALE
Requiring significant training for the different hauling functions would create more of a hauling specialty and lead to more professional diversification which I think would add flavor to the game. Under the scheme I outlined above, a player would have to train for about 6 months to be able to fly all the different hauling ships, not including additional time for standard stuff (advanced spaceship command etc). This would restrict hauling to players that are professionals and make it a more elite profession and activity in the game. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4193
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:55:36 -
[9] - Quote
And can you also explain why you feel the creation of a basic 5 planet PI alt should take five weeks rather than one? And a basic miner should likewise take several months instead of one? And nobody should think about industry for a month minimum instead of building ammo on day one?
It never took a month to go over 10km3. You could do that in your seven minutes with a bestower pre patch. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10684
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Posted - 2016.02.10 00:03:40 -
[10] - Quote
Droidster wrote: This would restrict hauling to players that are professionals and make it a more elite profession and activity in the game.
More proof, if any were needed, that you are a terrible troll and should probably stop wasting electrons.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
901
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Posted - 2016.02.10 00:30:21 -
[11] - Quote
You can't be sure in this game. Trolls and people of special mental capacity are almost indistinguishable at times.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2903
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Posted - 2016.02.10 18:11:02 -
[12] - Quote
What we need is large industrials and large transports. These would be battleship-sized subcaps that are much more expensive than regular industrials and are much slower, and have a much higher skill cost, but they would haul much more than regular industrials and would be able to fit battleship tank modules. They would sit somewhere in the vast expanse between industrial and freighter cargohold sizes.
Make a tech 1 version that has super strong active tank and a bit over DST cargo space, and another tech 1 with much less tank but decent buffer which can go up over 100,000 m3 space. Then make a tech 2 that acts as a covert jump hauler, using a covert jump drive, and the other tech 2 has a regular jump drive. The tech 2 would have a very short jump range which still allows them to bypass stargates.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1845
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Posted - 2016.02.10 18:17:35 -
[13] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Make a tech 1 version that has super strong active tank and a bit over DST cargo space, and another tech 1 with much less tank but decent buffer which can go up over 100,000 m3 space.
So basically, "Make a low-skill, insurable DST that's better than a DST"?
Haulers are already in a pretty good place. A few more specialized-hold haulers to round out the non-gallente lines would be nice, perhaps.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2271
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Posted - 2016.02.10 19:30:19 -
[14] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:I think hauling should stay as it is. Right now hauling has a very healthy level of skill vs reward vs danger enforced by haulers vs demand vs gankers.
As others have stated you have good options for high end hauling ships as you do with low SP industrials. And before someone says something about t1 indies being weak...
You have badger. Oh, yeah, having to train for 7 minutes, that is a very "healthy" level of skill required. Real tough. Train for 7 minutes to get an Epithal. Real big investment. Huge career decision there. Wow, what a profession, requires a whole 7 minutes to train. Real professional devotion required for that.
Fly your 7-minute trained Epithal through 0.0 space, then tell me about how quickly you have mastered hauling.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
77
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Posted - 2016.02.12 07:04:02 -
[15] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Make a tech 1 version that has super strong active tank and a bit over DST cargo space, and another tech 1 with much less tank but decent buffer which can go up over 100,000 m3 space.
So basically, "Make a low-skill, insurable DST that's better than a DST"? Haulers are already in a pretty good place. A few more specialized-hold haulers to round out the non-gallente lines would be nice, perhaps.
DST would still be faster at warp than this new T1 battleship-indy. I've trained 3 races of indy: I started with Amarr, took Gallente for special indies, Caldari for Badger.
The Kryos and Miasmos are nice special indies, but any DST is still going to be faster because of warp speed once you get DST V. Oh, and I wouldn't want to fly a loaded Epithal to Jita 4-4 unless I wanted to see my ship boom.
A signature :o
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2321
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Posted - 2016.02.12 11:49:06 -
[16] - Quote
I am not sure what you are on, Droid, but training for a DST takes already 30 days (to sit in the ship), another 10 days to have Transport Ships IV to be actually useful and in addition a whole lot of support skills (Navigation, Tank, fitting resources, etc.) so that you get over 90 days easily. Furthermore, the Epithal and all the special commodity haulers cannot haul at all. The only thing they are useful for are their narrow niches outside which they have no use.
Training for a Providence, with Freighter V, takes already 95 days (Freighter IV 46 days) and that is still without support skills. I fail to see your point in making the training for haulers even longer than it already is. The next time, you should get your information right before you post anything.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
748
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Posted - 2016.02.12 13:52:45 -
[17] - Quote
Guilty of only scanning the rest after reading the OP but here goes.
Being a "professional" hauler in this game has nothing to do with character skills and everything to do with the person behind the character so why change the skills training requirements? |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10754
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Posted - 2016.02.12 18:05:27 -
[18] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote: Being a "professional" hauler in this game has nothing to do with character skills and everything to do with the person behind the character so why change the skills training requirements?
Actually, it does have a fair amount to do with skills (as well as the pilot being alert and aware of their surroundings, of course), as without DSTs/Blockade Runners/whatever, hauling to lower security systems is basically suicide.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Melek D'Ivri
Nachtwasser GmbH
79
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Posted - 2016.02.12 18:22:22 -
[19] - Quote
Hauling and the attendant skill training isn't broken. Staph Beink a Bonehedd. No broken, don't fix. |
Loradan Illstari
Heretic Army I N F A M O U S
3
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Posted - 2016.02.12 20:33:59 -
[20] - Quote
Translation: I want less competition so I can jack up my prices.
Uhm, no. That's not it works. That's not how any of this works. BTW, have you ever trained Jump Cal V? Trust me. Hauling already takes long enough to train. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1559
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Posted - 2016.02.12 23:04:11 -
[21] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Make a tech 1 version that has super strong active tank and a bit over DST cargo space, and another tech 1 with much less tank but decent buffer which can go up over 100,000 m3 space.
So basically, "Make a low-skill, insurable DST that's better than a DST"? Haulers are already in a pretty good place. A few more specialized-hold haulers to round out the non-gallente lines would be nice, perhaps. DST would still be faster at warp than this new T1 battleship-indy. I've trained 3 races of indy: I started with Amarr, took Gallente for special indies, Caldari for Badger. The Kryos and Miasmos are nice special indies, but any DST is still going to be faster because of warp speed once you get DST V. Oh, and I wouldn't want to fly a loaded Epithal to Jita 4-4 unless I wanted to see my ship boom. i think you are getting dst and BR mixed up DST do not get a warp speed boost
Citadel worm hole tax
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
748
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Posted - 2016.02.13 14:50:07 -
[22] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Actually, it does have a fair amount to do with skills (as well as the pilot being alert and aware of their surroundings, of course), as without DSTs/Blockade Runners/whatever, hauling to lower security systems is basically suicide. Perhaps I have confused you here, or perhaps your are simply confusing yourself. This topic is about changes to how the in game character skills train, and the skill requirements to fly certain ships, those changes were proposed as a way of making hauling more "professional". Taken in that context the character skills and how they are trained are not relevant to making a player a professional hauler.
Even when taken in a broader context the characters skills are largely irrelevant to a player being a professional. The character skills do not prevent you from flying a freighter into low sec without an escort or spotters. The character skills do not prevent you from using a freighter when you should be using a BR or DST. The character skills do not prevent you from trying to fly through a gate camp when you should find an alternate route or simply dock up and wait till the campers get tired and leave. The character skills do not prevent you from flying a freighter full of Plex into Jita without web alts.
While I agree with your that a professional hauler in this game will have all relevant skills trained to level 5, it is also true that those character skills do not make them a professional hauler. In the end it all comes back to a players desire and willingness to do all the right things that make them a professional. |
Zylona Femtov
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.02.28 16:39:15 -
[23] - Quote
Hauling is basic and should stay like that. That is really a bad move on this game mechanics. |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
797
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Posted - 2016.02.29 02:19:22 -
[24] - Quote
WTF? Droid.
Look, the training times are commensurate with any other profession. The problem here is you are looking strictly at the ship training times and not looking at the support skills.
EVERY SHIP has support skills, A professional hauler will train those support skills just as intensely as a professional mission runner.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
191
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Posted - 2016.03.05 07:21:36 -
[25] - Quote
(1) there is considerable in-game training involved. (t1 indies don't count) (2) there is even more human skill involved. (3) skills for an Orca or deep space transport don't always overlap with what your character is really about -- it's not like anything else benefits from those skill, especially when all you want is a highsec carrier and you need to be a Mining foreman to do it.
Wouldn't mind some hauling certificate though. But I can't think of anything you'd want to put on it that's not already covered by Navigation and Tanking.
One thing I must admit has me a little puzzled. In cruisers, you have the level 5 racial specific, followed by generic "Logistics" / "Heavy Assault" etc.
Capital ships on the other hand, only have racial skills. I don't see "Minmatar Capital V" with subsequent "Freighter" / "Carrier", nope- they're all racial skills and you're not getting in ANY kind of capital with a Capital ship to level I-III. That's like requiring Minmatar Cruiser to IV or V before you're even allowed in a Stabber. Does not make sense to me; but meh. Besides the point. |
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