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Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
11
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Posted - 2016.02.10 07:09:41 -
[1] - Quote
ISDs locked my last thread for ranting. Fair enough, I'm pretty mad about this. I've re-worded my argument to remove any anger and only put across the very valid points I raise.
As a 6-month-old newbie, I created a humble afktar alt, with starry-eyed dreams of flying a badass triage Archon with a character I'd trained myself. Well here I am, over two years later, and said alt has just finished Amarr carrier 5. I picked a triage pilot off the market a couple years ago when I ran into some isk, and I'm now the proud owner of two perfect Archon pilots.
...at least, I was.
See, I was pretty psyched with the introduction of FAX machines. Splitting the triage role from DPS always made sense to me. I was looking forward to being able to fly both ships in the future. Today, however, this appeared in markets across New Eden. The price, I'm not too concerned about. It's the training that horrifies me.
Now, let's do some rough maths. A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector). This means that I personally will have to choose between spending 30-40bil ($250 of Aurum) or just spending 14-15bil on PLEX and then waiting around for 5 months.
Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.
While I hope that this was just a poor balance decision, observations like this have been made recently, and one can only wonder if this is deliberate. This seems to me like a cash grab, abusing players such as myself that are devoted enough to the game to bear with the changes and buy our way back to wear we were.
Any devs who read this - any comment? I may well be wrong about accusing you of making this a cash grab, and I welcome being proven wrong by a logical explanation to these changes, or plans to look at skills again. My Reddit thread highlighting this issue has gained a fair bit of traction, so I'd say this is an issue you definitely cannot ignore.
tl;dr New skill training is a terrible idea, possibly even a cash grab
I'm an acquired taste.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44453
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Posted - 2016.02.10 07:13:38 -
[2] - Quote
This one will be locked for ranting and reopening a locked thread.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
12
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Posted - 2016.02.10 07:22:58 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:This one will be locked for ranting and reopening a locked thread.
My interpretation of the rule is that just copy-pasting a locked thread is forbidden. In the "rant" section of the rules, it explains that rants are locked due to non-constructive comments. I have since obeyed this rule and expressed my opinions on the subject in a more constructive and less angry manner.
And while this could be interpreted as a rant, it is still a very valid issue that needs to be discussed.
I'm an acquired taste.
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Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Fidelas Constans
587
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Posted - 2016.02.10 07:44:22 -
[4] - Quote
I fully agree with op. I have all four races carriers trained ony two chars. Most too 4. Sone to 5. Both chars triage 5 fighters 5. I have tons of skilling ahead of me to be back in place i was before the change will hit.
as a paying customer (i mean, someone paid for my plexes) this only means that ccp is going for a cash grab on me. When citadel expansion hit i will have my lawyer (i dont have a lawyer) write me some nice petition.
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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Jordanna Bauer
Taylor Swift Fanclub
73
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Posted - 2016.02.10 08:42:35 -
[5] - Quote
This is a valid issue, please do not lock.
"If you can fly it now, you can fly it tomorrow" no longer applies. Trying to use "but it's a totally new ship class!" as a counterargument is garbage because the roles our skillpoints are invested in are now partially wasted no matter how you look at it. This needs to be revisited before the capital skill point refunds go out, because once that happens, there's no easy way to go back. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
659
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Posted - 2016.02.10 08:49:33 -
[6] - Quote
They did make a new skill and they did make it so that you can get your carrier SP refunded if you are primarily in the healbot mode...
I for one have had carrier 5, fighter 5, triage 5 for about the last 100M sp on FireFrenzy and will now need to go and get FORCE AUX to make it so that i keep my current utility, but i am entirely satisfied with how CCP has handled it. Mainly because i am already running out of skills i might actually want to have anyways but also because they allowed me to turn the DPS half of my carrier into a force aux if i wanted too... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1551
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Posted - 2016.02.10 09:04:43 -
[7] - Quote
My main issue is not how they are handling the transition but that a ship (fax) with half the use of a current carrier is still a x14 skill.
With the carrier skill this was reasonable not only was it the only capital skill that trained two ships one of those two was a super. There is no reason the new fax should also be x14.
My other issue is the weapon system for carriers just got 2x harder to train (3x of we ate not counting supers) with the two new fighter skulls being placed at x12. For context a dreads guns are only x7 and with the exclusion of the Phoenix you only need to treason one x7 skill to get full use out of your guns not 4 x12
Citadel worm hole tax
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2901
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Posted - 2016.02.10 09:12:50 -
[8] - Quote
Carrier skills are 14x, Dreadnoughts are 12x. As long as they're splitting Carriers into two skills, why not make both cheaper, say, 10x? Could refund players the unused 2/7ths of their Carrier SP (leaving the skills trained to the same level) and they could optionally spend the refunded SP on a Force Auxiliary skill should they choose to. This would reduce the increase in total SP cost from +14x to just +6x.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
15
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Posted - 2016.02.10 09:16:17 -
[9] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:They did make a new skill and they did make it so that you can get your carrier SP refunded if you are primarily in the healbot mode...
I for one have had carrier 5, fighter 5, triage 5 for about the last 100M sp on FireFrenzy and will now need to go and get FORCE AUX to make it so that i keep my current utility, but i am entirely satisfied with how CCP has handled it. Mainly because i am already running out of skills i might actually want to have anyways but also because they allowed me to turn the DPS half of my carrier into a force aux if i wanted too...
You've got the better end of this deal. I am most certainly not running out of things to train. And now my plans for dualboxing Sins and dunking renters will have to be put off for another 6 months
I'm an acquired taste.
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2145
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Posted - 2016.02.10 09:26:51 -
[10] - Quote
I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Robert Dalentis
What Could Go Wrong Snuffed Out
7
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Posted - 2016.02.10 09:33:38 -
[11] - Quote
It is really upsetting to see a blatant cash grab like this.
Certainly grandfathering us into these skills is a poor idea (screws over newbros who dont have the skills) but hot damn, it really is not in line with other capitals for us to train this much to simply get to the point carrier pilots were at before... the multipliers on the proposed skills are ridiculously high.
CCPlease
Lack of intelligence officer
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1185
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:06:36 -
[12] - Quote
+1 to OP.
Also (I'll eat my hat if I'm wrong) but grandfathering/SP reimburse is 100% dead in the water thanks to the disgrace that is skill extractors. You'll never see anything grandfathered again, ever. Never ever.
There is absolutely no compelling reason why FAX cannot stem from the existing carrier skill. Its pre-reqs are reasonable, its rank is fitting for that and if the name really upsets people that much then rename it to racial capital support ships and flip dreads to racial capital siege ships.
I get that CCP want them to be viewed as two different ships and that's fine, but that is not a reason to add new skills. Zero, beyond OCD on the part of the ship tree boys. Get over it. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2966
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:23:25 -
[13] - Quote
1. It's just a ship nerf to carriers, be glad CCP is being nice and allowing reallocation. 2. Post in This thread with your arguments, not your own special snowflake thread.
But really, you are whining over your favourite ship receiving a well deserved nerf. It's not the first time a ships role has changed and people need to train the new hull for the actual role. And very clear breakdowns for why the new skills should exist have been placed in the proper thread by people.
And CCP is being utterly consistent with their policy, you will be able to fly the same hulls you could before the nerf. When they have removed a role and given it to a new ship, they have never given the new skill to people. Only time they give skills is when they actually move the actual ship hull to a new skill. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
303
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:23:44 -
[14] - Quote
the normal solution would be to decrease carrier/fax rank 14 skill to rank 8 (or whatever the number ), so that you will only need half of the SP you need now for carrier lvl V; with the sp reimb a player can inject the other half into fax, so voila, "what you can fly today, you can still fly after the patch" like someone, i think it was CCP ? used to say;
more than that, this way will also be fair with the new players, something grandfathering wasn't really;
why did CCP choose the other solution? because of CASH GRAB , that's why; no matter how you look at it, it's clear to me that "greed is good" is still as strong as ever in CCP |
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
772
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:32:11 -
[15] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed. Do you know how much money CCP made yesterday?
It won't get fixed cause it's working as intended...
You want CCPs attention on this matter? Start a riot and get 20% of the playerbase to unsub. Then and only then will CCP listen to the masses! |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1185
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:33:28 -
[16] - Quote
It's patently not a ship nerf to carriers, you ridiculous creature. That would be a hull stat pass. But we've been over this, take your schadenfreude somewhere the hell else.
CCP move roles around all the time within classes, but you know what? When cruiser lines shift roles my freaking crusier skill still works on the new ships. |
Robert Dalentis
What Could Go Wrong Snuffed Out
7
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:35:04 -
[17] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
But really, you are whining over your favourite ship receiving a well deserved nerf. It's not the first time a ships role has changed and people need to train the new hull for the actual role. And very clear breakdowns for why the new skills should exist have been placed in the proper thread by people.
Nobody is complaining about the carrier being split in two. its pretty damn rare you undock a triage carrier and need to use drones, and vice versa.
What people are upset about is the new skills. We invested a certain amount of SP into a role to be able to do it, and now we are being told that we need a bit more than double of what we invested to get to the same point we were before.
Lack of intelligence officer
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2966
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:38:06 -
[18] - Quote
Robert Dalentis wrote: Nobody is complaining about the carrier being split in two. its pretty damn rare you undock a triage carrier and need to use drones, and vice versa.
What people are upset about is the new skills. We invested a certain amount of SP into a role to be able to do it, and now we are being told that we need a bit more than double of what we invested to get to the same point we were before.
And it's not the first time this has happened. And you had a blatantly OP ship which was too powerful & easy for it's skill investment. You also invested that SP to fly a carrier hull. And can still fly a carrier hull to the same level of success. CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it. |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2146
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:42:26 -
[19] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed. Do you know how much money CCP made yesterday? It won't get fixed cause it's working as intended... You want CCPs attention on this matter? Start a riot and get 20% of the playerbase to unsub. Then and only then will CCP listen to the masses!
That wan't a treat to CCP, that was just me stating what I plan to do.
I do think other people should do the same if they are unhappy with what CCP are doing but i won't be organising any protests.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Anthar Thebess
1446
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Posted - 2016.02.10 10:47:03 -
[20] - Quote
Welcome to EVE 2016 : No poor allowed.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Tineoidea Asanari
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
133
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Posted - 2016.02.10 11:27:39 -
[21] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it.
Carriers right now can do two things: Damage and Healbot. I like the split into two hulls for these jobs, as slowcats really were a problem. But now we have two 14x skills which cost 500 mio per race. That is the ridicolous part. CCP, please reduce the multiplicator and the cost. Most people I've spoken with saw a reason why carrier skillbooks are that much more expensive than dreads, but there is no reason to keep the prices so high after the split. As it is now, it fucks with both old and new players. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1551
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Posted - 2016.02.10 11:43:22 -
[22] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it. Carriers right now can do two things: Damage and Healbot. I like the split into two hulls for these jobs, as slowcats really were a problem. But now we have two 14x skills which cost 500 mio per race. That is the ridicolous part. CCP, please reduce the multiplicator and the cost. Most people I've spoken with saw a reason why carrier skillbooks are that much more expensive than dreads, but there is no reason to keep the prices so high after the split. As it is now, it fucks with both old and new players.
I really hope ccp realise this as an issue
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lavayar
Russian SOBR Dream Fleet
240
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Posted - 2016.02.10 12:55:11 -
[23] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote: But now we have two 14x skills which cost 500 mio per race. That is the ridicolous part. CCP, please reduce the multiplicator and the cost. Most people I've spoken with saw a reason why carrier skillbooks are that much more expensive than dreads, but there is no reason to keep the prices so high after the split. As it is now, it fucks with both old and new players.
Well noticed! |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
149
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:01:34 -
[24] - Quote
Loroseco Kross wrote:ISDs locked my last thread for ranting. Fair enough, it was a rant. I have re-worded my argument to be more constructive, highlighting the valid points I made I currently own 2 perfect Archon pilots (T2 triage, Amarr carrier 5, fighters 5), meaning I have two characters that can use a carrier both for a DPS role and for a triage tole. However, yesterday this appeared in markets across New Eden. The price, I'm not too concerned about. It's the training that gets to me. Now, let's do some rough maths. A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector). This means that I personally will have to choose between spending 30-40bil ($250 of Aurum) or just spending 14-15bil on PLEX and then waiting around for 5 months. Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5 on my two pilots. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.
While I hope that this was just a poor balance decision, observations like this have been made recently, and one can only wonder if this is deliberate. This seems to me like a cash grab, abusing players such as myself that are devoted enough to the game to bear with the changes and buy our way back to wear we were. Any devs who read this - any comment? I may well be wrong about accusing you of making this a cash grab, and I welcome being proven wrong by a logical explanation to these changes, or plans to look at skills again. My Reddit thread highlighting this issue has gained a fair bit of traction, so I'd say this is an issue you definitely cannot ignore. tl;dr New skill training is a terrible idea, possibly even a cash grab
I fully support the idea in the past people who had the necessary skills when ship skills were diveded gained some SP --> it seems to be appropriot to do the same here too.
+1
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1187
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:23:29 -
[25] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it. Carriers right now can do two things: Damage and Healbot. I like the split into two hulls for these jobs, as slowcats really were a problem. But now we have two 14x skills which cost 500 mio per race. That is the ridicolous part. CCP, please reduce the multiplicator and the cost. Most people I've spoken with saw a reason why carrier skillbooks are that much more expensive than dreads, but there is no reason to keep the prices so high after the split. As it is now, it fucks with both old and new players. I really hope ccp realise this as an issue
Bad news, CCP confirmed that actually dread is the outlier. No current fix plans though. |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill Separatists
143
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:24:45 -
[26] - Quote
Ensuring that a DPS capital ship cannot be oppressive with remote repairs by splitting them into separate roles is a reasonable design choice. I will have to agree with the OP that imposing additional SP seems unnecessary to achieve that.
There are already enough skills to differentiate the roles:
Carriers- Fighters (x12)
- Fighter Bombers(x12)
- Support Fighters (x12)
- Light Fighers (x12)
FAX- Tactical Logistics Configuration (x8)
- Capital Remote Repairs (x10)
- Capital Shield Transport (x10)
- Capital Capacitor Emission Systems (x10)
I do support the concept behind this thread but I do not support the calling out of CCP over 'money grabbing.' I not ruling out that money may have motivated their decision, but the questions of 'why' needs to be part of a separate discussion as it will only muddy the waters. |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill Separatists
143
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:30:06 -
[27] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it. Carriers right now can do two things: Damage and Healbot. I like the split into two hulls for these jobs, as slowcats really were a problem. But now we have two 14x skills which cost 500 mio per race. That is the ridicolous part. CCP, please reduce the multiplicator and the cost. Most people I've spoken with saw a reason why carrier skillbooks are that much more expensive than dreads, but there is no reason to keep the prices so high after the split. As it is now, it fucks with both old and new players. I really hope ccp realise this as an issue Bad news, CCP confirmed that actually dread is the outlier. No current fix plans though.
Expensive skill books are a boring ISK sink. I do agree that ISK sinks are needed but the actual training requirements for most of these ship are large hurdles without the need for an ISK requirement.
If you want an example of an interesting ISK sink you only have to look at the wardec system. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7175
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:35:57 -
[28] - Quote
So adapt. Changes wouldn't really be worth it if every time they made a change they fixed it so you are unaffected by the change.
The thing is, they made a mistake way back when they made the original promise to make sure everyone can do everything they could following every change. They should just tell people what the change will be, dump the link to the HTFU video and move on.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
123
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Posted - 2016.02.10 13:46:52 -
[29] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:So adapt. Changes wouldn't really be worth it if every time they made a change they fixed it so you are unaffected by the change.
The thing is, they made a mistake way back when they made the original promise to make sure everyone can do everything they could following every change. They should just tell people what the change will be, dump the link to the HTFU video and move on.
Yes, because that worked oh-so-well for Incarna.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Harkin Issier
Negative-Impact Violence of Action.
54
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Posted - 2016.02.10 14:03:34 -
[30] - Quote
Posting because I think the way this was handled is supreme bullshit.
You took one hull, broke it in half, and then expect people to pay you $$$ to be able to continue using both halves.
That's disgusting.
Make it so FAXes use the racial Carrier skill. |
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