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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
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Posted - 2016.03.01 20:25:51 -
[1321] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:The goal is to make it less of a must have mod, making it better than before to fit one does not exactly help to meet that goal. It is, since the module does less. How are you still not getting that?
What part of "its better than what its replacing" do you not understand?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7386
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Posted - 2016.03.01 21:04:33 -
[1322] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:The goal is to make it less of a must have mod, making it better than before to fit one does not exactly help to meet that goal. It is, since the module does less. How are you still not getting that? What part of "its better than what its replacing" do you not understand? What part of "the module does less" do you not understand?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 21:35:41 -
[1323] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:What part of "the module does less" do you not understand?
And where is that?
Again, after this change the DCU provides slightly more tank than you get today, no other module will provide a better alternative and no damage mod is worth fitting over the DCU. The DCU is just as needed after the change as before, thus the whole change fails to do what it is supposed to do. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3007
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 21:43:30 -
[1324] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: And where is that?
Please post the before & after stats of the DCU II. Ignore any other changes, just the DCU II stats. Then explain how the DCU II is now giving more than it used to give. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
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Posted - 2016.03.01 21:59:22 -
[1325] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: And where is that?
Please post the before & after stats of the DCU II. Ignore any other changes, just the DCU II stats. Then explain how the DCU II is now giving more than it used to give.
Due to the way things in EVE work the DCU II after this change will boost your ship with 13% shields, 15% armour and 61% structure resists. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3007
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 22:03:53 -
[1326] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Due to the way things in EVE work the DCU II after this change will boost your ship with 13% shields, 15% armour and 61% structure resists.
No it won't. That will be the END result. Not the boost that the DCU II gives itself. You are stacking two separate effects together for your claims. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 22:09:11 -
[1327] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Due to the way things in EVE work the DCU II after this change will boost your ship with 13% shields, 15% armour and 61% structure resists.
No it won't. That will be the END result. Not the boost that the DCU II gives itself. You are stacking two separate effects together for your claims.
The END result is we keep doing what we are currently doing. After this change we will still be using the DCU on all the ships that currently fit the DCU. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3007
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 22:14:52 -
[1328] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The END result is we keep doing what we are currently doing. After this change we will still be using the DCU on all the ships that currently fit the DCU.
And? That is irrelevant to your claims that the module itself provides a larger bonus than it used to, which is an outright lie. The module provides a smaller bonus.
If the module has been nerfed enough to make a noticeable difference in how many people use it is irrelevant to the question of if it has been nerfed at all. And the module has certainly been nerfed.
You just are doing your normal thing, of cherry picking statistics and ignoring or flat out lying about everything else. And it's seriously old now. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1296
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 22:18:20 -
[1329] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: The END result is we keep doing what we are currently doing. After this change we will still be using the DCU on all the ships that currently fit the DCU.
And? That is irrelevant to your claims that the module itself provides a larger bonus than it used to, which is an outright lie. The module provides a smaller bonus. If the module has been nerfed enough to make a noticeable difference in how many people use it is irrelevant to the question of if it has been nerfed at all. And the module has certainly been nerfed. You just are doing your normal thing, of cherry picking statistics and ignoring or flat out lying about everything else. And it's seriously old now.
Sorry but he's bang on.
You can't take a module deemed "must fit", buff the fits using it and claim "Look, it's now less desirable! Because everyone using it is not even stronger"
The very notion is ridiculous. The oxymoron to end all oxymorons.
Ed: It is like saying "Hey guys, ganking is too good so we're going to go ahead and buff catalyst and talos DPS" |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3007
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 22:24:10 -
[1330] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Sorry but he's bang on.
You can't take a module deemed "must fit", buff the fits using it and claim "Look, it's now less desirable! Because everyone using it is not even stronger"
The very notion is ridiculous. The oxymoron to end all oxymorons.
Ed: It is like saying "Hey guys, ganking is too good so we're going to go ahead and buff catalyst and talos DPS"
Actually you can, because the module is less desirable. If they halve the impact of say.... Weapon Upgrades but then give a 10% buff to weapons base damage, fits using weapon upgrades are less desirable, regardless of the end result overall. So no, it's not ridiculous, you just have no idea how to do an independent assessment of a single factors impact & value, vs the overall value of an entire package. |
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1296
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Posted - 2016.03.01 22:32:07 -
[1331] - Quote
No, it is not. It is not only still 100% essential for non half assed snowflake bullshit which isn't relevant, it's now even more effective in its role.
The number of people in this thread who actually think the hull resists are why you fit a DC is mind boggling. Truly mind boggling.
Let me repeat it again. If you nerf a DCU down to 0% hull resist it is still essential for serious work. Because you're not fitting it for the hull resists. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
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Posted - 2016.03.01 22:53:06 -
[1332] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And? That is irrelevant to your claims that the module itself provides a larger bonus than it used to, which is an outright lie. The module provides a smaller bonus.
If the module has been nerfed enough to make a noticeable difference in how many people use it is irrelevant to the question of if it has been nerfed at all. And the module has certainly been nerfed.
You just are doing your normal thing, of cherry picking statistics and ignoring or flat out lying about everything else. And it's seriously old now.
So now its a personal vendetta just to try and "get me"?
I am looking at this change as a whole and what it means. Fitting the DCU on any ship will give you those resists, thats why I am lumping them together. Every single ship that fits a DCU will get 61% hull resists which is slightly more than what is available today. That is the point I am making.
If you just want to concentrate on the DCU then its still a must have mod, no ship that fits them today will not fit them in the future. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3007
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 23:03:59 -
[1333] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: So now its a personal vendetta just to try and "get me"?
I am looking at this change as a whole and what it means. Fitting the DCU on any ship will give you those resists, thats why I am lumping them together. Every single ship that fits a DCU will get 61% hull resists which is slightly more than what is available today. That is the point I am making.
If you just want to concentrate on the DCU then its still a must have mod, no ship that fits them today will not fit them in the future.
Yes, it's a personal vendetta to call you out for constant outright lies..... No it's not a personal vendetta. It's calling you out for outright lies, which you constantly peddle on the forums to mislead people. You were replying directly to someone talking about purely the DCU making claims that the DCU Module has been buffed. It hasn't, the module has been nerfed. It's irrelevant what the end result is with regards to how 'must fit' the module is. Only what the module stats are. Could they nerf the DCU even further for good balance, almost certainly, I'd love to see it become hull resists only with 0% for armour & shield, but have they nerfed it for now? Also absolutely. It's just a debate on how much of a nerf is needed and desirable, not if it's been nerfed at all. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4778
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Posted - 2016.03.01 23:14:43 -
[1334] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: So now its a personal vendetta just to try and "get me"?
I am looking at this change as a whole and what it means. Fitting the DCU on any ship will give you those resists, thats why I am lumping them together. Every single ship that fits a DCU will get 61% hull resists which is slightly more than what is available today. That is the point I am making.
If you just want to concentrate on the DCU then its still a must have mod, no ship that fits them today will not fit them in the future.
Yes, it's a personal vendetta to call you out for constant outright lies..... No it's not a personal vendetta. It's calling you out for outright lies, which you constantly peddle on the forums to mislead people. You were replying directly to someone talking about purely the DCU making claims that the DCU Module has been buffed. It hasn't, the module has been nerfed. It's irrelevant what the end result is with regards to how 'must fit' the module is. Only what the module stats are. Could they nerf the DCU even further for good balance, almost certainly, I'd love to see it become hull resists only with 0% for armour & shield, but have they nerfed it for now? Also absolutely. It's just a debate on how much of a nerf is needed and desirable, not if it's been nerfed at all.
Unfortunately you have to fit the DC to a ship and the buff to ship hull resists indirectly provide a very small buff to the DC.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
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Posted - 2016.03.01 23:20:41 -
[1335] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: So now its a personal vendetta just to try and "get me"?
I am looking at this change as a whole and what it means. Fitting the DCU on any ship will give you those resists, thats why I am lumping them together. Every single ship that fits a DCU will get 61% hull resists which is slightly more than what is available today. That is the point I am making.
If you just want to concentrate on the DCU then its still a must have mod, no ship that fits them today will not fit them in the future.
Yes, it's a personal vendetta to call you out for constant outright lies..... No it's not a personal vendetta. It's calling you out for outright lies, which you constantly peddle on the forums to mislead people. You were replying directly to someone talking about purely the DCU making claims that the DCU Module has been buffed. It hasn't, the module has been nerfed. It's irrelevant what the end result is with regards to how 'must fit' the module is. Only what the module stats are. Could they nerf the DCU even further for good balance, almost certainly, I'd love to see it become hull resists only with 0% for armour & shield, but have they nerfed it for now? Also absolutely. It's just a debate on how much of a nerf is needed and desirable, not if it's been nerfed at all.
After this change, as a whole, we will get more.
It was said that this change would result in slightly less than today, not a lot to make any difference. Turns out this is a buff to what we have today, slightly more but not enough to make any difference. The reality is that nothing will change for DCU fitted ships. You seem to have missed the context of this discussion |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3013
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 23:51:50 -
[1336] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
After this change, as a whole, we will get more.
It was said that this change would result in slightly less than today, not a lot to make any difference. Turns out this is a buff to what we have today, slightly more but not enough to make any difference. The reality is that nothing will change for DCU fitted ships. You seem to have missed the context of this discussion
And I have Bingo! Moving goalposts argument played by Baltec completes the set!
Yea..... No, I didn't miss the context of the discussion, you have decided to move your argument after you got called out on an outright lie, and pretend you were talking about something else. Which is utterly irrelevant to the point I made, and the point you were replying to at the time. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7387
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 00:00:59 -
[1337] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:What part of "the module does less" do you not understand?
And where is that? Again, after this change the DCU provides slightly more tank than you get today, no other module will provide a better alternative and no damage mod is worth fitting over the DCU. The DCU is just as needed after the change as before, thus the whole change fails to do what it is supposed to do. No, it doesn't. The combination of the DCU and your ships base stats provide more, but the DCU itself provides less, thus is less important overall.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Sorry but he's bang on.
You can't take a module deemed "must fit", buff the fits using it and claim "Look, it's now less desirable! Because everyone using it is not even stronger" No, he's completely wrong. Let's make an extreme example, and imagine they changed all ships adding on all the bonuses of the DCU to it's base stats minus 2% hull resists. Then they make the DCU only add 4% hull resists. A ship fitting that after would be 2% better off in terms of EHP, but he DCU itself is basically useless because it's providing nearly none to that benefit.
Scaled down, that's exactly what's happening here, while the ships may be better off if they keep the DCU now compared with the old DCU, they lose LESS by removing it than they used to lose by removing it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2304
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 00:19:18 -
[1338] - Quote
Very glad to see nothing much changed here.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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The Ginger Sith
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2016.03.02 05:50:56 -
[1339] - Quote
while attending the mass test on sisi i tested out the new DCU II
it seems they decided to set the static hull resist at 34% instead of 33% (could change tho)
when i added DCU II to any ship that allowed it the ship would sit at 61% the exception to this is the hecate while in defensive mode would go up to 74% and marauders in bastion would go up to 73% i think it was.
obelisk showed around 490,000 ehp with 3 x bulkhead.
faction/officer/deadspace dcu where untestable as they mearly added their names with no stats so i doubt they where even added to the loot drop table at the time i was on sisi.
the change looks interesting and looking forward to it we shall see how it plays out :P |
Cristl
355
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Posted - 2016.03.02 06:05:24 -
[1340] - Quote
Sheesh...you lot
Baltec, your maths is wrong, or you're trolling. The DCII itself is being nerfed: it will give the same bonuses to shield and armour ehp, while increasing hull ehp by 67% (rather than by 150% as on TQ). That's a nerf.
However, baltec is also correct that the DCII will still be too good - it still buffs shield and armour ehp by too much non-stacking penalised ehp. Very few fits will drop the DC, maybe a tackle or kiting ship will go for a prop enhancer for better speed tank and/or tactical purpose (get the tackle there faster). Not many though. Maybe a tracking enhancer.
Fozzie, grab the beast by the horns and nerf the shield and armour components. Maybe 7.5% and 10% respectively, on the DC II. |
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7388
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 08:14:12 -
[1341] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Very few fits will drop the DC But not zero.
Cristl wrote:Fozzie, grab the beast by the horns and nerf the shield and armour components. Maybe 7.5% and 10% respectively, on the DC II. You have to consider though that the options are then either to add the additional defense to ships base stats, or accept the nerf to the DC without adjustment. If they adjust the ships, then fits that will still fit a DC gain nothing, while fits that don;t gain the extra defense on top of their other stats. If they choose not to adjust the ships, the fits that use a DC will lose a mass of defense, while ships who could use the DC but don't lose nothing. I think they are taking a measured approach because they don't want to end up breaking the balance too much.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 09:39:57 -
[1342] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Moving goalposts argument played by Baltec completes the set!
Ok so I'm getting 13% to shields, 15% to armour and 40% to structure on the DCU II. Combined with the buff to the hull its nets me 61% structure resists.
CCP buffed the DCU, its more of a must have mod now than ever.
That is what I said. Please stop trying to attribute an argument to me that I never made. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1299
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 09:55:16 -
[1343] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:What part of "the module does less" do you not understand?
And where is that? Again, after this change the DCU provides slightly more tank than you get today, no other module will provide a better alternative and no damage mod is worth fitting over the DCU. The DCU is just as needed after the change as before, thus the whole change fails to do what it is supposed to do. No, it doesn't. The combination of the DCU and your ships base stats provide more, but the DCU itself provides less, thus is less important overall. Morrigan LeSante wrote:Sorry but he's bang on.
You can't take a module deemed "must fit", buff the fits using it and claim "Look, it's now less desirable! Because everyone using it is not even stronger" No, he's completely wrong. Let's make an extreme example, and imagine they changed all ships adding on all the bonuses of the DCU to it's base stats minus 2% hull resists. Then they make the DCU only add 4% hull resists. A ship fitting that after would be 2% better off in terms of EHP, but he DCU itself is basically useless because it's providing nearly none to that benefit. Scaled down, that's exactly what's happening here, while the ships may be better off if they keep the DCU now compared with the old DCU, they lose LESS by removing it than they used to lose by removing it.
Except like I said the hull resists are absolutely NOT EVER why this is fit outside of bullshit snowflake stuff.
IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR
Is it clear enough now? |
soliketotallydude
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2016.03.02 11:03:05 -
[1344] - Quote
What is the pricing on the Syndicate damage controls in the syndicate LP stores going to be, and will they be available as 5-run BPCs like other hardeners or just as the finished module? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3013
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Posted - 2016.03.02 11:03:53 -
[1345] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Ok so I'm getting 13% to shields, 15% to armour and 40% to structure on the DCU II. Combined with the buff to the hull its nets me 61% structure resists.
CCP buffed the DCU, its more of a must have mod now than ever.
That is what I said. Please stop trying to attribute an argument to me that I never made.
Except it's NOT A BUFF. Because the old DCU gave 13% to shields, 15% to armour and 60% to hull. And if we still had the old DCU with the hull resist buff you would be getting 73.6% Hull resists. So NERF! The base hull resist change is a separate change from the DCU stats, so you can't roll the two into one and claim the module has been buffed. Seriously, you are outright lying or have turned into a complete idiot unable to do basic maths in the last week. I'm favouring the former because I really don't think you are that stupid.
And you did move the goalposts because you tried to make it an argument about 'you missed the context' when you specifically were replying to the numbers of the DCU itself. So you are lying yet again on that front. I guess you are trying to just throw enough mud that something sticks so you can pretend you were right.
And Morrigan, we know that's your argument, but it's irrelevant, because the DCU is still getting nerfed. It's just not a big nerf. Lucas & I have never said most fits won't change because the Shield & Armour resists are the same. But some fits do use a DCU in order to have some hull buffer. And since the RAH shares it's stacking penalty with the DCU certainly armour can consider a wider range of fits. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17496
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 12:21:33 -
[1346] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Except it's NOT A BUFF. .
What happens when we fit a DCU
Pre changes 12.5% shields, 15% armour, 60% structure.
Post changes 13% shields, 15% armour, 61% structure.
It doesn't matter that the 34% of the hull comes from the buff to the ship because that is part of this change and you must take that into account in the final result. You cannot just look at the DCU because that is only one part of the picture in a larger change. You are trying to argue a technicality. Yes, the DCU lost 20% to the structure bonus but when you combine the DCU with the added structure resists you come out with slightly better resists when you fit the DCU as opposed to today. Lucas was trying to argue that fitting a DCU post change would not net you the same as what you have today. No goalpsts were moved, you just joined in mid way though Lucas trying to spin his way out of an argument he had lost.
The DCU nerf is a nerf that hasn't really happened, by baking part of the resits into the hulls themselves all CCP has done is buff every ship that either didn't fit or could not fit a DCU. The ships that actually do fit the DCU are going to see at worst no change and at best a slight increase. That is until we get to the faction and officer DCU's which will provide better results than we see today.
So end result of this is nothing changes for any ship that fits a DCU today, ships that dont fit a DCU (pve boats, miners, haulers, specialized pvp ships) they will see a buff of 34% to their structure and ships cant fit the DCU at all will see 34% added. This fails the original goal of making the DCU less of a must have mod. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7389
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 16:01:27 -
[1347] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Except like I said the hull resists are absolutely NOT EVER why this is fit outside of bullshit snowflake stuff.
IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR IT IS FOR THE NON STACKING PENALIZED SHIELD AND ARMOR
Is it clear enough now? No, because YOU ARE STILL ONLY TALKING ABOUT EHP
Ships have more stats than just that, so yes, if your only objective is to make your EHP as high as possible, the DC is a must have module, but if you aren't only interested in EHP, other modules will now be slightly more reasonable choices as you don;t zero out your hull resist buffer, but gain the benefit of the other modules. A lot of the reason people fit a DCU is because they don't want to instantly pop when they hit their hull, and the DCU makes evaccing in hull a possibility on a wider range of ships. These native resists will now do that, so people who fitted a DCU for that reason alone will certainly look at other options.
baltec1 wrote:It doesn't matter that the 34% of the hull comes from the buff to the ship Of course it does when you're considering the appeal of the DCU. The DCU does less therefore has less appeal. No matter what way you spin it, that is the reality.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17497
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 16:22:21 -
[1348] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Of course it does when you're considering the appeal of the DCU. The DCU does less therefore has less appeal. No matter what way you spin it, that is the reality.
The DCU is still the best mod to fit. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7389
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 16:34:23 -
[1349] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Of course it does when you're considering the appeal of the DCU. The DCU does less therefore has less appeal. No matter what way you spin it, that is the reality. The DCU is still the best mod to fit if you only care about EHP and ignore all other ship stats. FTFY.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1299
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 16:37:23 -
[1350] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:A lot of the reason people fit a DCU is because they don't want to instantly pop when they hit their hull, and the DCU makes evaccing in hull a possibility on a wider range of ships. These native resists will now do that, so people who fitted a DCU for that reason alone will certainly look at other options.
The fact a heap of people clearly have no clue how these things actually work doesn't invalidate it as a must have module. Balancing around stupid people is a bad place to start. You're going to end up with stupid results, like this.
Besides, in every case I checked, the primary tank gain (shield or armor) was greater than the hull gains. I'm sure there are some hilarious snowflake fits where this is not true but it holds for the majority. The smart player is not giving up a DC, ever, for a serious fleet.
And all these geniuses who ditch the DCU, well they're all going to hit hull a hell of a lot faster and the pissant native resists on it is not going to save them.
The correct way to make this change was to hammer the shield and armor resists and do nothing else. Then the module looks less attractive. |
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