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David Davaham
0
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Posted - 2016.02.14 03:20:58 -
[1] - Quote
Hello,
I made a post in the EVE Technology forums about a week and a half ago and it has gotten a little bit of a response, but since most of the people who visit that forum do not use the Bazaar, I am attempting to target members of the community who have, or plan to, used/use the Character Bazaar.
I recently started a project in which I want to make it easier for member to buy and sell their characters. The intention of the system is to allow an almost eBay fashioned bidding wars to take place in addition to tons of other features. I am not quite ready to release all of the details (because i am still coming up with them :-D ), but I would like to get some insight into features that the community would like to see in the system.
With that said, this system is not endorsed by CCP. With the strictness of the bazaar that they have, I could spend two months working on this just to have them turn shut it down, and by that I mean that the system cannot function within the rules of the Bazaar if CCP will not support it. But that is a risk I am willing to take because the entire project is serving as a learning tool for me. I have created a three option poll that i would like anybody who is willing to answer.
Link to Poll: http://www.poll-maker.com/poll572900x4b704B5c-24
Please vote on that poll and comment here about how you voted
Thank You, David Davaham |
Pix Severus
Empty You
3038
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Posted - 2016.02.14 03:51:52 -
[2] - Quote
I voted yes, but to keep it on the forums, as selling characters helps to increase forum traffic. I'm sure that there could be some way to improve the bidding mechanic within the forum software.
My lord.
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David Davaham
0
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Posted - 2016.02.14 03:58:48 -
[3] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:I voted yes, but to keep it on the forums, as selling characters helps to increase forum traffic. I'm sure that there could be some way to improve the bidding mechanic within the forum software.
The only mechanic that i can see being improved is that they actually email us when a new post is posted. I hate logging in just to find out that somebody replied to my post hours ago. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2689
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Posted - 2016.02.14 04:02:49 -
[4] - Quote
I doubt you would be shut down as long as the actual trade was still conducted through the forum. The rules around the actual transfer of characters would need to be as strict as ever but an external site to help finalise a price would be fine.
http://www.evecharactersearch.com/ is fantastic for anyone looking for a character btw.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.14 04:17:13 -
[5] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I doubt you would be shut down as long as the actual trade was still conducted through the forum. The rules around the actual transfer of characters would need to be as strict as ever but an external site to help finalise a price would be fine. http://www.evecharactersearch.com/ is fantastic for anyone looking for a character btw.
Thank You for your support. I have viewed that website. It is actually my inspiration for the project. To take what that website does, and improve it.
Major Differences is that my project utilizes part of the XML API. To my knowledge, that site scrapes the forum for its data. |
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
132
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Posted - 2016.02.14 11:50:38 -
[6] - Quote
The character bazaar is a cluster f*ck. Using a forum section as a market? What genius dreamed this up? Then, a spam rule...don't "bump" your post for ever so many ... I tell yah. I put a toon on it. Endured it for three days, then derezzed the toon.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
304
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Posted - 2016.02.14 11:56:49 -
[7] - Quote
I thought one of the reasons for sp injectors was so that they could do away with the bazaar.
Moving an out of game process into the game. |
David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.14 18:24:13 -
[8] - Quote
Avvy wrote:I thought one of the reasons for sp injectors was so that they could do away with the bazaar.
Moving an out of game process into the game.
Even if the Character Bazaar was done away with, I am pretty sure the ability to Transfer Characters between account for a price would remain, thus allowing for something bazaar themed to rise from the ashes |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
309
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Posted - 2016.02.14 18:29:25 -
[9] - Quote
David Davaham wrote:Avvy wrote:I thought one of the reasons for sp injectors was so that they could do away with the bazaar.
Moving an out of game process into the game. Even if the Character Bazaar was done away with, I am pretty sure the ability to Transfer Characters between account for a price would remain, thus allowing for something bazaar themed to rise from the ashes
You can already transfer characters between your accounts.
So there is no need for selling characters, just extract and sell the sp. Also what would be the point of trying to put the process in-game if all you end up doing is making another out of game process. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9860
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Posted - 2016.02.14 18:54:57 -
[10] - Quote
Avvy wrote:I thought one of the reasons for sp injectors was so that they could do away with the bazaar.
Moving an out of game process into the game. I believe I saw something mentioned about doing that from a CCP source, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
From a purely pragmatic perspective, CCP would be shooting themselves in the foot by removing the hundreds of thousands of dollars in transfer fees that they currently get. And from a player perspective, pre-made characters will always be cheaper than the equivalent made with injectors.
There's the long route to gaining SP using only time and implants. The instant but expensive route with injectors. And the middle ground of letting someone else train for you and buying that character on the bazaar for a reasonable price.
They all have their place, in my opinion.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Pirate Aussie
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2016.02.14 21:21:21 -
[11] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:I voted yes, but to keep it on the forums, as selling characters helps to increase forum traffic. I'm sure that there could be some way to improve the bidding mechanic within the forum software.
Not only that, but doing any type of auctions off-forums could be--and often is--construed as a violation of the EULA. It's not uncommon for the seller to see a suspension/ban for doing it. On top of that, if you sell the character, the buyer has no actual recourse if it turns into a scam. |
David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.14 22:05:30 -
[12] - Quote
Pirate Aussie wrote:Pix Severus wrote:I voted yes, but to keep it on the forums, as selling characters helps to increase forum traffic. I'm sure that there could be some way to improve the bidding mechanic within the forum software. Not only that, but doing any type of auctions off-forums could be--and often is--construed as a violation of the EULA. It's not uncommon for the seller to see a suspension/ban for doing it. On top of that, if you sell the character, the buyer has no actual recourse if it turns into a scam.
I am glad this topic was brought up. The system that i am coding is very limited in what you can actually do to modify the data. Other than a Ad Title and Description, and the starting bid and buyout prices, the users will have no interaction the actual data. Actually, those four values will be the only data that the seller will be able to write to the database except for the API Information for the Char being sold at the beginning of the process. The ability to scam will be almost nill. The validation will be tight, you must be able to provide a very specific API Key in order for the system to work. This rules out former Corporation CEO's from using you Full API Key to try to scam the system. We do not accept full API Keys. The system does not use Eveboard either so that CEO trying to use that method has be X'd out as well. I wrote a script that does the same thing that Eve Board does utilizing a very specifically formatted API Key because I do not want ANY suspicion as to what we are trying to do here.
As for the trading of real world money. I have no control over that. The system will not be coded to accept real world money at all except for possible donations for the maintaining of the hosting account. That is all.
These are just few of the things that the system has the capability of doing. I will be request Tester within the week for some dummy transactions to see what the overall opinion of the system is. From there, we will see what happens.
If i have not addressed something, please let me know. Thank You |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2977
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Posted - 2016.02.14 22:10:36 -
[13] - Quote
The Bazaar should just be shut down now we have SP injectors. We needed a trading system to combat gold sellers, but now we have SP injectors we don't need both, and the SP injector system keeps a character name always with the same player so you don't have to worry about characters changing hands behind the scene. |
Scotchmo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2016.02.14 22:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Since prices have rose to parity with SP injectors it seems useless now.
I suppose for very large SP trades there will be a small market due to less diminishing returns.
Way late on tools for the Bazaar I'm afraid. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5688
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Posted - 2016.02.14 23:18:12 -
[15] - Quote
Bazaar will remain relevant.
A 25m SP dreadnought pilot costs around 40b with injectors. You can buy one for much less than that on the bazaar.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.14 23:28:20 -
[16] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Bazaar will remain relevant.
A 25m SP dreadnought pilot costs around 40b with injectors. You can buy one for much less than that on the bazaar.
Thank You. I do not have any experience with skill injectors right now, but from what i have heard, it is a lot more expensive to the go the skill injector route. The ONLY benefit I see from that route is you still have a pick over the name and look of the character as opposed to not having those options when purchasing a character |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2691
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Posted - 2016.02.15 00:18:20 -
[17] - Quote
SP injectors have effectively put a floor on prices for bad characters plus made low SP, focused characters more difficult to trade at a profit. High SP, non-miner characters will retain their value.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
83
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Posted - 2016.02.15 08:18:59 -
[18] - Quote
Hi David,
Please note below is purely my personal opinion on the matter and not reflective of ISD's and/or CCP.
As a prolific historical user, abuser and multi user of the CB both in my gaming career and now in a moderation position I believe there are many aspects that could certainly be improved upon but given the current systems inherent link to character information and forum we are in a bind as to possible improvements to make.
It is certainly an interesting idea and would love to see what could be done but i would highly recommend that you fire a support ticket a GM's way and get a feeler for an official CCP response here! (note rule 10. "Posting of private CCP communication is prohibited.")
Best of luck!
ISD Atomic Dove
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.15 09:38:22 -
[19] - Quote
ISD Atomic Dove wrote:Hi David, Please note below is purely my personal opinion on the matter and not reflective of ISD's and/or CCP. As a prolific historical user, abuser and multi user of the CB both in my gaming career and now in a moderation position I believe there are many aspects that could certainly be improved upon but given the current systems inherent link to character information and forum we are in a bind as to possible improvements to make. It is certainly an interesting idea and would love to see what could be done but i would highly recommend that you fire a support ticket a GM's way and get a feeler for an official CCP response here! (note rule 10. "Posting of private CCP communication is prohibited.") Best of luck!
Thank you for that input sir. I have already taken your suggestion to heart. Earlier this evening I submitted a support ticket. Hopefully CCP Is favoring my idea. I have made a lot of progress and actually very close to a presentable product.
I am planning on request test users here in the next few days.
DDavaham |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
214
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Posted - 2016.02.15 10:11:03 -
[20] - Quote
I'd wager character bazaar will stick around as a cheaper way of selling a large amount of skill points. Moving 100m SP via extractors is a whole lot of $$$ on AUR to CCP. I've never used the bazaar but I believe the transfer cost is 2 plex, which is much much cheaper than all those extractors.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33353
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Posted - 2016.02.15 20:11:51 -
[21] - Quote
If character bazaar was killed, I would laugh at how it meant all SP would be funneled through extractors
AND
it meant owners would have to drain their characters themselves. I know I couldn't do it.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.16 06:22:05 -
[22] - Quote
SOOOOOOO yeah, I still have not heard back from CCP on my support ticket, so in the meantime I have continued to work on the site. Below I am going to paste some screenshots and a new poll to help me decide which layout to go with for the bazaar. Let me know what you think.
Character Page Layout: http://prntscr.com/a3v3az
Screens of the tabs at the bottom:
Finally, a screenshot of the page where users will be able to filter the results based on certain criteria. Now the filter has not been built yet. I was working on more of the base functionality. (i.e. account settings, API pulls, page layout)
I will be starting on the filter once I can get more characters in the database (i.e. Test Dummies/Beta Tester).
http://prnt.sc/a3v4zs
As for what I said about multiple layouts for the main portion of Bazaar page, I really do not like the other layout I had, so I am not going to post it. It makes the screen way to cluttered.
Here is the new poll, please vote and let me know what you think.
New Poll: How to do you think the bazaar looks? |
David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.16 21:44:35 -
[23] - Quote
Bumping for visibility. Would really like to get others opinions |
Sturmwolke
684
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Posted - 2016.02.17 01:48:11 -
[24] - Quote
David Davaham wrote: I recently started a project in which I want to make it easier for member to buy and sell their characters. The intention of the system is to allow an almost eBay fashioned bidding wars to take place in addition to tons of other features. I am not quite ready to release all of the details (because i am still coming up with them :-D ), but I would like to get some insight into features that the community would like to see in the system.
All transactions should be recorded on CCP's EVE forum for posterity*. A proper paper trail involving character transfers has been forever neglected by CCP (what the hell?). The current procedures via the forums is a duct-taped measure which is outdated, clunky and unverifiable to the general public. No 3rd party should be allowed to host records pertaining to characters transfers as this creates problems with abuse, mediation and enforcement i.e. it fundamentally goes beyond CCP's control.
That said, no real isk is involved anyway (since it transfers directly to characters). Your effort can only be monetized through donations or affiliated links. Charging isk commission per transaction is probably allowable but that diverges from "easy" and converges on "complex". At that point, it competes with the forum .... which is Free.
*as simple as generating an auto message (with unique hash identifier) with pertinent details confirming successful transaction for either buyer/seller to copy-paste onto the forum thread. |
David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.17 02:47:54 -
[25] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:David Davaham wrote: I recently started a project in which I want to make it easier for member to buy and sell their characters. The intention of the system is to allow an almost eBay fashioned bidding wars to take place in addition to tons of other features. I am not quite ready to release all of the details (because i am still coming up with them :-D ), but I would like to get some insight into features that the community would like to see in the system.
All transactions should be recorded on CCP's EVE forum for posterity*. A proper paper trail involving character transfers has been forever neglected by CCP (what the hell?). The current procedures via the forums is a duct-taped measure which is outdated, clunky and unverifiable to the general public. No 3rd party should be allowed to host records pertaining to characters transfers as this creates problems with abuse, mediation and enforcement i.e. it fundamentally goes beyond CCP's control. That said, no real isk is involved anyway (since it transfers directly to characters). Your effort can only be monetized through donations or affiliated links. Charging isk commission per transaction is probably allowable but that diverges from "easy" and converges on "complex". At that point, it competes with the forum .... which is Free. *as simple as generating an auto message (with unique hash identifier) with pertinent details confirming closed/successful bid for either buyer/seller to copy-paste onto the forum thread.
Hey Man,
Thanks for your feedback. Let me address some of the concerns you raised
Sturmwolke wrote:All transactions should be recorded on CCP's EVE forum for posterity*. A proper paper trail involving character transfers has been forever neglected by CCP
I completely agree with you. Granted I will be a Third Party, but the data will be better managed and CCP WILL BE ABLE to access the data at any time upon request. They merely need to establish contact via an ingame mail or some sort of vetted email address. Now to be honest, the data I will be storing as anybody can access it with an API Key. As long as they are able to get the code from the owner of the character.
Sturmwolke wrote: A proper paper trail involving character transfers has been forever neglected by CCP (what the hell?). The current procedures via the forums is a duct-taped measure which is outdated, clunky and unverifiable to the general public.
Another reason as to why I am doing this. Not only will a record of buys and sell be attached to each account, so will a record of how many times a particular character has been sold or bought and WHO originally owned them/created them.
Sturmwolke wrote: No 3rd party should be allowed to host records pertaining to characters transfers as this creates problems with abuse, mediation and enforcement
Why not if the Third Party can take this burden off of CCP?
to be continued.... |
David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.17 02:51:40 -
[26] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote: That said, no real isk is involved anyway (since it transfers directly to characters). Your effort can only be monetized through donations or affiliated links. Charging isk commission per transaction is probably allowable but that diverges from "easy" and converges on "complex". At that point, it competes with the forum .... which is Free.
The site will be free to use to EVE Online Players as long as they have an active account. There will be a page where players can get information on how to donate to the site's/server cost of maintenance/upkeep.
Quote: *as simple as generating an auto message (with unique hash identifier) with pertinent details confirming closed/successful bid for either buyer/seller to copy-paste onto the forum thread.
You read my mind man. The code has not been written yet, but this and more are in the works.
Keep the posts coming guys. I am at work and board as fuq.... :-D |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9908
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Posted - 2016.02.17 05:57:35 -
[27] - Quote
David Davaham wrote: The site will be free to use to EVE Online Players as long as they have an active account. There will be a page where players can get information on how to donate to the site's/server cost of maintenance/upkeep.
I think that's where you might run into some issues. I believe CCP will allow a site to make use of their property for ISK donations, but draw a line at monetizing it.
Though I have to say they've been pretty selective in enforcing this rule.
In any case, talk to a GM about it and see what they say because I am no authority on that topic and could be completely wrong.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Sturmwolke
684
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Posted - 2016.02.17 07:06:26 -
[28] - Quote
David Davaham wrote: I completely agree with you. Granted I will be a Third Party, but the data will be better managed and CCP WILL BE ABLE to access the data at any time upon request. They merely need to establish contact via an ingame mail or some sort of vetted email address..
CCP won't require any of your references, they can accesss the transfer details without any help. The character bazaaar forum posts just makes it easier to track and highlight any foul play to the public. For the sake of argument, debasing CCP to the role of a client to something which they are in complete control of is an absurd idea ... and no, the forum duct-tape stays. The proposed website should serve as a subordinate to the forum duct-tape, not the other way round. The EVE forum is a constant in the equation, your website or any other 3rd party sites are simply variables. I'll recommend a Darwin Award nomination who still doesn't get the idea.
David Davaham wrote: Now to be honest, the data I will be storing as anybody can access it with an API Key. As long as they are able to get the code from the owner of the character
For a simple bidding site, the only things necessary are the SSO login for third party sites and a limited API for character in question (to view the char stats).
If you're going down the route of having clients commit any other EXTRA APIs or any other personal identifier to your proposed website, pause and think for second. The act of using your website already reveals their associated IPs and browser information that can tallied with the SSO logins (if they didn't undertake any anonymity measures). Who is in control of this information? You, CCP or anyone else? It's an open secret that alliances keep a tab on personal information from websites which they control to form an intelligence database. No assurances from anyone (well, maybe except Chribba) will convince there won't be any misuse.
End of the day, from a Machiavellian standpoint, owning such websites generates a gold mine of information (those extras hidden from the public). Since CCP half-assed character transfers, it will give an advantage whomever is in control of these details. This is thorny issue that CCP needs to be careful with, lest it gives reason for unecessary outrage, accusations and drama in the future.
David Davaham wrote: Why not if the Third Party can take this burden off of CCP?
see above.
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.17 07:20:41 -
[29] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:David Davaham wrote: The site will be free to use to EVE Online Players as long as they have an active account. There will be a page where players can get information on how to donate to the site's/server cost of maintenance/upkeep.
I think that's where you might run into some issues. I believe CCP will allow a site to make use of their property for ISK donations, but draw a line at monetizing it. Though I have to say they've been pretty selective in enforcing this rule. In any case, talk to a GM about it and see what they say because I am no authority on that topic and could be completely wrong. Mr Epeen
EVE-Skillplan.net
A website that aggregates player Skills and assist with building well structured skill plans has a Support This Project webpage, as I listed above and they are going strong.
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David Davaham
1
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Posted - 2016.02.17 07:43:32 -
[30] - Quote
I am kind of doing this out of order, I apologize. First the part about API Keys
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6342352#post6342352
David Davaham wrote:Pirate Aussie wrote:Pix Severus wrote:I voted yes, but to keep it on the forums, as selling characters helps to increase forum traffic. I'm sure that there could be some way to improve the bidding mechanic within the forum software. Not only that, but doing any type of auctions off-forums could be--and often is--construed as a violation of the EULA. It's not uncommon for the seller to see a suspension/ban for doing it. On top of that, if you sell the character, the buyer has no actual recourse if it turns into a scam. I am glad this topic was brought up. The system that i am coding is very limited in what you can actually do to modify the data. Other than a Ad Title and Description, and the starting bid and buyout prices, the users will have no interaction the actual data. Actually, those four values will be the only data that the seller will be able to write to the database except for the API Information for the Char being sold at the beginning of the process. The ability to scam will be almost nill. The validation will be tight, you must be able to provide a very specific API Key in order for the system to work. This rules out former Corporation CEO's from using you Full API Key to try to scam the system. We do not accept full API Keys. The system does not use Eveboard either so that CEO trying to use that method has be X'd out as well. I wrote a script that does the same thing that Eve Board does utilizing a very specifically formatted API Key because I do not want ANY suspicion as to what we are trying to do here.
This addresses some of the issues members may have about the collection of information that is not necessary for the site to function. After much testing, I have been able to narrow my needs down to these two API Keys.
The first one is required for creating an account on the website. It gives access to information that is already accessible from within the game on your Show Info screen as well as the date at which your subscription expires. Per CCP Rules, accounts that do not have an active subscription cannot access the forums, nor will you be able to log into the website to create/modify your ads. [url]https://community.eveonline.com/support/api-key/CreatePredefined?accessMask=41943040[/url]
This one is little bit more detailed. It gives access to your character sheet, character info, and yes they are different, account status or the account the character is on, balance of your wallet, your skill queue and detailed information about the skill that is currently being training. All of these are necessary to ensure that the Character being sold/bought complies with CCP's rules and regs for the Bazaar. [url]https://community.eveonline.com/support/api-key/CreatePredefined?accessMask=50724873[/url]
Sturmwolke wrote: ... and no, the forum duct-tape stays.
Excuse me sir but I NEVER insinuated that i wanted my bazaar to replace the forum based bazaar. I just merely stated that the data will be better managed.
Sturmwolke wrote:For the sake of argument, debasing CCP to the role of a client to something which they are in complete control of is an absurd idea
I also never attempted to degrade CCP to role of a client to me. This is insulting at most since i am literally a client of their's (i.e. Subscribing several accounts a month) and I am doing this because of my love of programming and the challenge of putting something like this together. I just stated that, if for any reason, they needed to reference the data that I collected through the process of a bidding war or something, they would have access to it. I meant that i would not try to withhold any of the data I collect. In addition to that, the data that I collect comes from them already. They would only reference me for maybe bidding records at most or maybe my version of the data I have because it is modified slightly.
I think that just about covers everything :-D |
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