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Vallista
Gallente Gold River Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vallista on 03/02/2007 21:32:24 I posted this in the wrong forum, so I'm moving it over here.
Concord protects the average innocent citizen from lawless predators within the bounds of high security space. However, in reality this does not happen and typically Concord ends up protecting the aggressor rather than the victim.
Currently, can flagging allows one who has goods in a jetcan to act aggressively towards someone who removes his goods from his can. However, this leads to an imbalance. Usually, the flagged person is in a combat ship while the victim is in a barge or industrial ship. The objective for the victim is not to initiate hostile actions, but simply to restore ownership of his goods.
Ownership of property is not a digital state and cannot be reduced to owned or not owned. According to the rules of property, a thief is the current owner of a good, and can defend his ownership of that good against all but the true owner of the good. In the Eve environment, this statement is not true, there is simply owner or not-owner.
The imbalance occurs because in order to restore ownership of the good, to which he could previously claim ownership, he must break the law and in turn flag himself to the outlaw, creating a situation where the victim is doubly victimized as the remover proceeds to destroy his ship with impunity.
Five solutions come to mind, with varying degrees of simplicity. The first is that goods are flagged with a history and upon removal from a jetcan, if they are deposited in another can, are allowed to be returned without subsequent flagging. However, this creates a host of associated problems from the programming and database management fields such as a history for each item or stack of items.
The second solution is to allow the victim to petition through an automated system for a return of the goods. However, this again results in the same or similar laundry list of problems of programming and database management issues. In addition, there comes the issue of what happens to the good when it is sold, destroyed, refined, etc?
The third solution is a simple swap. When items are removed from a jetcan by an individual who is not within the same group, corporation or alliance as the creator, it creates a receipt which can only be removed by the creator. The receipt lists the item(s) removed and the best regional price or in the absence of a regional price, the base price from the database of the item. In certain stations, there would be an npc who could receive these receipts and create a lien against the removerÆs account for the value of the goods.
The fourth solution is simply to introduce a larger sized secure can so that miners can go about their business without losing hours of time due to a miscreantÆs actions.
The last solution is to allow bribery of Concord officials. Concord can already be bribed to look the other way when corporations decide to declare war upon each other. Simply allow a PC corporation to bribe concord officials to help them out when someone aggresses them by stealing from a can. Call it an additional tax for better service from the public servants. However, this is unsatisfactory because it still does not allow the miner to recover the value of his ore.
Thanks for your time.
Vallista
PS, this is my main, not an alt.
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Vallista
Gallente Gold River Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:35:00 -
[2]
To those of you out there, and I know that there are many, who say that I should just fight, I preempt your flame.
You're absolutely right, I can shoot the thief. Suppose I throw the 5 drones from my barge at the thief, what do you suppose happens? His Velator dies, and he gets 175,000 from the loss of an uninsured ship, which is more than enough to fund several more cheap ships. He makes a profit. Meanwhile, I'm out the couple of million ISK worth of ore which I spent an hour mining.
In order to recoup my losses, I have to get flagged myself by stealing from his can. Or I can simply roll over and go back to mining, in which case he will probably begin to farm my cans every 30-45 minutes.
The essential problem is one of balance. I can run missions in a Raven with near absolute safety, gaining ISK, items and LP. However, with mining, there is no equivalent, nor even any reasonable alternative. In a barge, the cargo hold is filled roughly 60% in one cycle, so some form of can is essential.
Even on mining operations involving multiple people, jetcans are still used because no secure can is large enough to hold more than three cycles worth of ore from a retriever, much less a covetor or hulk. Unless you had a 30% hauler ratio in your operation, there is no way to keep up with hauling using jetcans, and most of their time will be spent waiting for the cycle to finish on the barge.
The next problem is the fleets of secure cans hanging around the belts. There are so many old cans that I can't simply anchor the 10 or so I'd need to do what I need to do without jetcan mining.
Thus miners are left in a state of subjugation to the whims of anyone who desires to ruin our day with no recourse. In every thread about this I always see some pirate say, "this is a pvp game, you should fight back." We can fight back, true. The three year old pirate in the velator gets back into his Deimos and kills us all, and then takes our ore. This result is pretty much guaranteed because he chose to specialize in combat, while we chose the industrial path.
This is my pvp and I'm here fighting back. I choose to believe that there are rational, intelligent people at CCP who can be persuaded by a valid, well thought out arguement. I choose to believe that they might see the need for this if it's well presented, so I'm doing my best to fight for all of the miners.
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Malcanis
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:36:00 -
[3]
Meanwhile, IRL if I break in to someone's house and take the DVD player because I am *SURE* he stole it from me the day before....
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Vallista
Gallente Gold River Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:41:00 -
[4]
Burglary and robbery are completely different topics. In burglary, you know someone broke in and stole something. But with robbery, you're looking the guy in the face while he takes your stuff. When someone steals from your can, you know who it is, it's the red blinky guy or girl in front of you.
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Luka Intarestum
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:48:00 -
[5]
A bigger secure can would be just the thing, honestly. Wouldn't need even to be the type of can that expands your cargo. Maybe even a type of can that can't hold cargo while in the cargo hold.
Small Secure Mobile Mining Silo Volume: 300 Capacity: 3000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 3000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
Medium Secure Mobile Mining Silo Volume: 1500 Capacity: 15000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 15000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
Large Secure Moblie Mining Silo Volume: 4000 Capacity: 40000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 40000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
You load up your silo, fly it out to where you're mining, anchor it, fill it (and maybe let your hauler Op mate empty it), empty it, unanchor it and take it home.
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Iconoclastix
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:57:00 -
[6]
Good luck, Vallista. As it currently stands, it seems the game is weighted in favor of PvP'ers who specialize in combat skills. Hopefully CCP will address this situation...
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Kumu Honua
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:10:00 -
[7]
There are many ways to protect yourself.
Use Giant Secure Containers. Have a hauler friend to immediately empty the can. Mine in a Battleship. Have a combat friend with you. Have him drop the can for you to dump into.
There's many ways to avoid an ore thief. However, if you choose to ignore these ways and insist on solo mining into a jetcan you MUST expect that you will lose ore at some point.
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Roue
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:11:00 -
[8]
Personally I think it is fine the way it is right now. And yes there are people who take advantage of it, but people take advantage of just about every single type of interaction in this game.
The plain and simple is that previously, for those of you new to the game. There was a two year period where if an ore thief stole from you, there was nothing you could do at all. If you shot at them you got concorded. Period. So you had to sit there and bite it.
Now at least you can fight back. And yes the target can defend themselves. But that is just the way they've decided to balance it out. If someone steals from you, you can engage them (I believe your corp can as well, or gang mates) and it can end up in a 1v1. But you have the choice of whether or not to.
Personally I've never had any problem finding a corporation full of individuals interested in working together to overcome the obstacles of the game. Such as hauling for me mining or me mining for them hauling, so that there is nothing to steal. This is my opinion not that of privateer corp, alliance, its member corps, affiliates, minions, pet animals, ex girlfriends, former roommates, 3rd grade gym teachers, late relatives, ontime relatives, |
Kiviar
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:13:00 -
[9]
Why don't you just have a corpmate drop a jetcan that you mine in to while he stays there on guard in a combat ship. when someone comes to steal from the can he gets killrights and blows up the theif. he then moves the ore back to the origional can and everything is okay. Your barge is in no danger this way.
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Raquel Smith
Caldari Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:14:00 -
[10]
Use an alt. It's the only way.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kumu Honua There are many ways to protect yourself.
Use Giant Secure Containers.
Not an option. Have you seen the m3 on those? They might as well be called "Miniscule Joke Cans". It would actually take longer to do it this way than to just fill your cargo and take it to the station repeatedly.
Originally by: Kumu Honua Have a hauler friend to immediately empty the can.
Not always an option depending on the circumstances.
Originally by: Kumu Honua Mine in a Battleship.
Doesn't help. If the theif gets himself and you flagged because you blew up his velator in your Dominix then he just comes back in his PvP fitted Raven. This is the kind of thing the bad guys LOOK for!
Originally by: Kumu Honua Have a combat friend with you. Have him drop the can for you to dump into.
Not always an option. Why should I ask a buddy to waste his day guarding my barge? No fun at all. ---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
Roue
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:30:00 -
[12]
Mining with a buddy to haul the moment you drop the ore IS ALWAYS AN OPTION. Except for the illprepared or impatient. Such as tools to prevent just about every atrocity in eve can be attributed to the illprepared or impatient. This is my opinion not that of privateer corp, alliance, its member corps, affiliates, minions, pet animals, ex girlfriends, former roommates, 3rd grade gym teachers, late relatives, ontime relatives, |
Vallista
Gallente Gold River Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Vallista on 03/02/2007 22:32:50 Edited by: Vallista on 03/02/2007 22:31:57 A giant secure can holds 3900 m3.
My retriever holds 2000 m3 without expanders.
I haul in 1800 m3 with one cycle of my strip miners with the bare minimum skills to run a retriever.
If I could anchor 10-15 cans side by side, then I'd be ok. However, with 50-60 cans arranged in a 5000m web across the belt, there is no room to lay down the pattern I'd need without modification from the developers.
Roue, I'll buy your arguement for adding a hauler and security person for my gang. It would solve my problem, by reducing my earnings to 33% of current values. Maybe we should nerf missions to a similar level or perhaps require 2 additional people to help run a level 3. BTW, I'm not seriously suggesting this nerf, simply pointing out the hole in your arguement.
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Soporo
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Soporo on 03/02/2007 22:30:57 I've been mining since day 1 of my charrs life and have never been ripped off. Why? Giant Secure cans. Other people use alts in an inustrial sitting next to the miner and can.
Alternately, get a Corpie to sit in a stealth bomber nearby, and fit a web and scam on your miner or hauler. |
Kumu Honua
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:35:00 -
[15]
Then mine till your hold is full and dump it at the station.
You have the options. You either use them or lose ore. That's how it works. That's how it should work.
If you can't play with friends, or you can't be arsed to use GSC's, then you will lose ore.
The choice is yours.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Raquel Smith Use an alt. It's the only way.
This is the only true solution. The only drawback is that it costs real money. Thankfully though it's not much. ---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
Mazzarins Demise
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:36:00 -
[17]
You willingly use Jetcans when you know this can happen. Doesn't matter if they have a crap load of space, you are accepting the risk and mining into them. If it gets stolen or flipped, then it is your loss. (I am a miner...actually).
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Roue
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Originally by: Raquel Smith Use an alt. It's the only way.
This is the only true solution. The only drawback is that it costs real money. Thankfully though it's not much.
friend's don't cost money. Only charisma This is my opinion not that of privateer corp, alliance, its member corps, affiliates, minions, pet animals, ex girlfriends, former roommates, 3rd grade gym teachers, late relatives, ontime relatives, |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/02/2007 22:42:49 Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/02/2007 22:35:12
Originally by: Kumu Honua There are many ways to protect yourself.
Use Giant Secure Containers. Have a hauler friend to immediately empty the can. Mine in a Battleship. Have a combat friend with you. Have him drop the can for you to dump into.
There's many ways to avoid an ore thief. However, if you choose to ignore these ways and insist on solo mining into a jetcan you MUST expect that you will lose ore at some point.
Use a dread or a carrier to mine, clear the system with a titan.
All possible, but hardly convenient for the isk return.
Originally by: Luka Intarestum A bigger secure can would be just the thing, honestly. Wouldn't need even to be the type of can that expands your cargo. Maybe even a type of can that can't hold cargo while in the cargo hold.
Small Secure Mobile Mining Silo Volume: 300 Capacity: 3000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 3000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
Medium Secure Mobile Mining Silo Volume: 1500 Capacity: 15000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 15000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
Large Secure Moblie Mining Silo Volume: 4000 Capacity: 40000 This secure silo can be anchored with Anchoring 1. While anchored, its capacity is 40000m3. It cannot be unanchored while there is any item inside. It requires a password to access.
You load up your silo, fly it out to where you're mining, anchor it, fill it (and maybe let your hauler Op mate empty it), empty it, unanchor it and take it home.
wll proposed, logic, but no Dev play a miner, so it will never be implemented.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Roue friend's don't cost money. Only charisma
True! I was talking about having a setup in which you can log on and mine at any time without having to impose on another person (especially a friend) that may want to go do something else. ---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Roue Mining with a buddy to haul the moment you drop the ore IS ALWAYS AN OPTION. Except for the illprepared or impatient. Such as tools to prevent just about every atrocity in eve can be attributed to the illprepared or impatient.
I suggest all of the miners follow this very good advice, adding the pay for buddy to the tritanum price.
I think that tritanium at 4 isk/unit will be a beautiful sight in market.
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Larkonis Trassler
Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 23:09:00 -
[22]
More than a year ago carebears and miners were crying out for some way to get back at ebil ore thieves. Now they... dont't? LOL. ------------ Crow Squad... An Audio and Visual Joygasm by Larkonis Trassler |
hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.03 23:21:00 -
[23]
lazy miners who cant be bothered to fit some cargo expanders in the low and lay a jetcan 500-800km off the belt when youre cycle is full warp to can drop ( BM it ) and warp back and continue to mine
Or have a hualing alt or arrange for corp mate to mine
I mean common this is a multiplayer game not a solo game stop whining for an iwin button haul and protect youre goods get organised or put up with ore theives droppiing by - again most high sec miners are lazy so wont goto systems with no stations either bah i give up to many i wanna solo it please protect me bla bla bla - well selection of the fittest ccp leave it as is please ignore the whiners and if there are ore thieves that make a living off the laziness of others good luck to u theres enough lazy sorts out there who ignore sensible work arounds anyway otherwise guys just get a afk hauler drop it in a 0.9 system and well u get it or join a 0.0 alliance and make much mroe than u can in empire depends on youre active - versus inactiveness lazyness profile i guess
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Samirol
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.03 23:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Iconoclastix Good luck, Vallista. As it currently stands, it seems the game is weighted in favor of PvP'ers who specialize in combat skills. Hopefully CCP will address this situation...
its weighted for those that are smart. If you use your brain to its full effect, then you will outsmart many pvpers
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.03 23:47:00 -
[25]
Actually the thief flagging and its current effects are an attempt at balancing a gameplay mechanic that was never intended: Jet can mining..
KALI:Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Fujiko MaXjolt
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:02:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fujiko MaXjolt on 04/02/2007 00:58:51 A funny little side-note to this, is the fact that while you can take from any can, you can`t put into any can....
edit: typos
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:34:00 -
[27]
hopefully the OP will wake up to hismelf and stop wanting lazy i win buttons
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Rabb Darktide
Independent Fleet O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.04 02:22:00 -
[28]
CCP is not going to fix this.. I can tell you why - money... Eventually you will get sick of getting your ore taken and will get a second account and roll up a hauler character to sit next to your barge and grab the ore you just mined - and CCP gets an extra $15 a month...
But, as has already been pointed out, CCP tends to favor the pew pew people over the industrial people.
----- INDF Recruitment |
Horatio Nately
Caldari Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2007.02.04 02:28:00 -
[29]
How dare you complain about stealing back what I rightfully steal. --------------------------------------- My Posts Represent My Opinion, Not Those of my Corp or Alliance. |
fushi yasha
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:22:00 -
[30]
i liek the mining silo idea.. however.. in someways it would make me sad, putting me out of a job and all.. miners in my corp wil tell me what system they are in and i sit in a staion or at a planet near by. once i get the word i swoop in and pop the thief befoer they know what just happned... i ask no pay just the loot.... its all about the teamwork for maximum p3wnage
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