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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:24:00 -
[121]
Has anyone managed to derive the formula for success rate yet? I've heard base figures from 15% to 80% or something. I don't really have a few billion to waste so I'm pretty interested in this.
Also, what's the formula for negative ME?
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.26 04:06:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Effei Gloom on 26/02/2007 04:04:01
Originally by: RyMcQeN I
Quote: 9. Stabber (1/4)
- Stabber bpc me:50 10 runs 2.5 mill - Stabber 6.5 mill - Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 8 160 mill - Datacore - Minmatar Starship Engineering 8 56 mill - Assembly Instructions 35 mill - (Cryptic Data Interface 0 isk) Skills: MInmatar Encryption Methods IV Mechanical Engineering IV Minmatar Starship Engineering IV
total: 281 mill isk
"Sadly you were unable to produce anything of value in this job.
This is far from an impossible job, but one that might require a few tries before succeeding."
loss: 281 mil isk total loss: 1285.2 mill isk
Just to clarify, you need the Cryptic Ship Data Interface for this right? Not just the Cryptic Data Interface?
sure it used a ship interf... typing error sorry
i am sure each type of interface got its own chance, ship has the worst it seems
Want to buy skills! |
Devian 666
KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2007.02.26 08:39:00 -
[123]
The only thing currently holding up the high price of data cores is the 4 cores per day striction. There are a lot more potential data cores that could be released everyday, especially given that most people have to go out of their way to pick them up.
More data core supply means, hopefully, lower prices. Cool an orange sig |
maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.26 09:37:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Devian 666 The only thing currently holding up the high price of data cores is the 4 cores per day striction. There are a lot more potential data cores that could be released everyday, especially given that most people have to go out of their way to pick them up.
More data core supply means, hopefully, lower prices.
Actually, it's "Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 8 160 mill", thats the problem, they are only found in exploration or via minmatar agents, so they are alot harder to get than other datacores.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Khajit Smitty
Minmatar MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.26 14:34:00 -
[125]
Originally by: maarud they are only found in exploration or via minmatar agents, so they are alot harder to get than other datacores.
Hmmm, i thought Caldari also had Mechanical Engineering agents
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Lorelei A
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Posted - 2007.02.26 17:54:00 -
[126]
So it's still unclear to me if and how the ME/PE levels on the tech 1 bpc used affect the invention job.
Does anyone know more about this?
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HighBirdDeuce
Playboy Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.26 23:24:00 -
[127]
Can someone explain the reason for using a multiple run BPC in the process. Wouldn't a one run do just as well?
HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected] |
Kaaii
Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.27 00:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: HighBirdDeuce Can someone explain the reason for using a multiple run BPC in the process. Wouldn't a one run do just as well?
Are you willing to spend he same number of datacores for 1 item, or max run of said items?
Trading 101 Kaaii-Net Research Labs
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HighBirdDeuce
Playboy Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.27 04:06:00 -
[129]
is it a 1 for 1 relationship betweent he bpc number of runs and the invention and the possible number?
HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected] |
maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.27 08:19:00 -
[130]
Originally by: HighBirdDeuce is it a 1 for 1 relationship betweent he bpc number of runs and the invention and the possible number?
In regards to the BPC, the figures on it are drastically reduced when they are turned into a T2 BPC, these figures include the ME, PE and number of Runs.
Hence, the higher ME, PE and Runs on the BPC you use in invention, the better your T2 BPC will be, hence max runs is optimal.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
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Hermes Massai
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.27 09:02:00 -
[131]
Like someone before me said, you are paying way too much on the datacores. Either look for better prices, do exploration, farm R&D agents, or all three.
Invention (with good relevant skills) should ALWAYS be more profitable than just selling the datacores. Why, you ask? Because datacores have no intrinsic value. Their only use is in Invention, thus their value is determined by what you can invent using those datacores and the value of the item you are trying to invent. The price is also influenced by demand and supply, but Invention effectively caps it.
Now.. we have Jita. The prices for some types of datacores are way... way too high. And they are so for two big reasons: a) the hype and novelty of Invention - people just want to experiment and don't care about the costs. b) people don't plan ahead or don't plan correctly.
So as long there's a) and b), the prices in Jita will remain inflated. But soon the hype will wear off and people will figure out how to calculate the real price of a particular datacore on their own. So stop buying inflated datacores!
Now, on to other, more general, Invention matters...
Some people might dislike the fact that it's chance-based, or the presence of BPO's, or the 4 datacore/agent/day limit. IMHO there's nothing wrong with Invention as it is now (besides the datacore prices). Let's examine the facts. This chance-based system was chosen for the most part to limit the number of bpc's invented into the game on a daily basis. As someone mentioned in a prior post, an inventor can potentially produce many more tech 2 items and ships than a BPO owner in the same amount of time. The devs had to limit this somehow, and change is what they came up with. Now, if you take a 25% (could be more, could be less, time will tell) chance of success on an invention job, this basically means you need 4 lab slots per bpc, which limits a player (read: account) to 16-20 bpc's for every 24 hours. A system with 100% chance of success but with 4x more datacores needed per job would have meant potentially 4 times more bpc's (up to 80). The devs deemed this option "bad", and I am inclined to agree. And then there's also the 4 datacores/agent/day limit, which is not as 'severe', due to exploration. I guess it was put in place to somewhat limit the influx of datacores we will receive once the t2 lottery ends, and might be increased once people deplete the RPs they accumulated over the years - that's 3-4 months.
But even with these two limiting factors, an inventor can still produce more tech 2 items and ships than a BPO owner. Which brings me to my next point. BPO's are becoming irrelevant, there's no need to remove them from the game. BPO's will never be able to produce enough to satisfy the demand (at least for the most used items/ships). BPO's will never be able to compete with invention. What invention lacks in production costs, makes up in sheer volume. The tech 2 prices will drop, that is true, though I don't see it becoming a new tech 1 anytime soon. And as the prices drop, the demand will increase; increased demand favours the inventors because they can produce more.
All we have to do now, is wait for the lottery to end, and see a bigger supply of datacores on the market.
P.S.: Don't expect HUGE profits with Invention though. The era of 1000% t2 price markups is about to end.
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Hermes Massai
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.27 09:14:00 -
[132]
Also to the OP:
When considering to invent something, you should:
- check the market price of the item you want to invent - multiply the datacores you need by 4 (you will need 4 invention jobs to have a good chance) - check datacore prices if you're planning to buy them
Then do the math and see if it's all worth it. For the number of runs you should expect on the bpc, use some average values. Like 15 for module, and I don't know, 4 for ship?
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Kyra Azor
Silver Train
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:22:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Kyra Azor on 01/03/2007 23:18:50
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: HighBirdDeuce is it a 1 for 1 relationship betweent he bpc number of runs and the invention and the possible number?
In regards to the BPC, the figures on it are drastically reduced when they are turned into a T2 BPC, these figures include the ME, PE and number of Runs.
Hence, the higher ME, PE and Runs on the BPC you use in invention, the better your T2 BPC will be, hence max runs is optimal.
That's not true. I think the number of runs is fixed for each type of bpc. I have tried both 1 run and multiple runs bpc of prototype cloaking device and I always received 4-run bpc of covert or improved cloak (when it's succesful). On some jobs I have added a decryptor that increases runs and received 10+ run bpc (can't remember exactly) from an 1-run bpc. I don't know if the amount of runs increases the chances of the job being succesful but it doesn't have an effect of the resulted runs.
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esquimo leviticus
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.03.06 14:43:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Hermes Massai Because datacores have no intrinsic value. Their only use is in Invention, thus their value is determined by what you can invent using those datacores and the value of the item you are trying to invent. The price is also influenced by demand and supply, but Invention effectively caps it.
Datacores do have a price, thereÆs a strange assumption that datacores are free cause they come from exploration or from cashing in R&D. This is a bad assumption to make. A datacores price is the one that folks are willing to buy them for on the market, which is based on supply and demand. Until the T2 lottery comes to an end and folks start to cash in RPÆs for Datacores, the price will remain high
Everyones getting into such a darn flap about invention atm, esp in terms of pricing, I have a suggestion for the folks that are whining about the shortfalls of invention atm:
a)Play with invention and pay more for the privilege of being one of the first. b)Wait until the masses have got into it and it offers higher profits through cheaper components.
IÆm surprised so many folks are getting into such a flap over invention when itÆs not fully up and running properly yet, esp seeing as the folks that are playing with it, should have enough isk to understand the way in which CCP make eve work.
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Alcrista Somez
The Phoenix Rising
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Posted - 2007.03.06 16:48:00 -
[135]
I wouldnt say its a flap as such - its more just that people are realizing slowly (me included) that until it is possible to reliably invent and build for a lower cost than the current market price of T2 items, then the whole thing is a little bit silly.
So currently there is absolutely zero benefit and we are throwing isk away. The net result of a few months of invention cycles HAS to be money saved over buying T2 goods off the market, otherwise it makes no sense.
I think the majority of posts here are people who are hoping that CCP are aware of this and are going to fix it sooner rather than later - problem is theres little CCP can do to stop people buying datacores at prices for which they are guarenteed to NOT make a long term profit Hopefully the players themselves will work that out sooner rather than later and the inlfux of datacores to the market once the cap is lifted will balance it all out.
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AGENT KW
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Posted - 2007.03.07 23:35:00 -
[136]
Some More Data: 10 Attempts to invent Invulnerability Fireld II - yielded 5x14 run BPC's - Thats 50% success BPC's were ME -7, PE -2
All Skills at 4 BPC with Max Runs (300) + 100ME + 10PE Decryptor was "installation instructions" Meta item was the only named T1 ( can't remember the name)
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.08 05:58:00 -
[137]
Agent KW: What were your skills at for this job?
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.08 06:03:00 -
[138]
Regarding datacore prices:
Part of the problem is that there are a few modules where you really do make a profit, even at 50% failure, with the datacores at these prices. These few modules are basically propping up the datacore prices (along with the supply issue) so that most modules aren't worth burning the datacores on. I'm not sure if just increasing the supply will fix this or not... we'll have to see.
Yes, I have made money on invention even with these (what would normally be) insane datacore prices.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:17:00 -
[139]
Ok, here's another datapoint. I don't really want to give away all the details on what I'm making since it's one of the few profitable things to make, and I still need to sell 42 of these before the price goes down below the profitable level. All I'll say is that it's a module and I believe the same rules to apply to most modules. This is the only type of module I've tried though. I always used a max run BPC.
Job #1: Encryption 3, Supporting Skills 3 The "+4 run 1.3 success multiplier" decryptor, Best available named item Great news! You were successful in producing a new Tech II blueprint!
Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much.
Blueprint details: Number of Runs: 14 Material Level: -7 Productivity Level: -2
Job #2: Same as above, failed.
Job #3: Got Encryption 4 by this time. Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."
Job #4: Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."
Job #5: Succeeded with: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."
Job #6: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."
Job #7: Failed
Job #8: "You succeeded, but you have a nagging feeling that you can't count on it every time."
So I get the feeling that the message has to do with how close the random number came to the success threshold. (Like if the chance is 75% you get some sort of "you barely made it" if the die roll is 74. But if the chance is only 30% you get the same message if the die roll is 29.)
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Maric
Science Experts
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:27:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01 Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing. Like Effei Gloom learn that hard way, ships have a lot lower success rate. I tryed myself too with TWO relevant skills lvl5 and one lvl4. Have not much better luck then Effei. I will try it again when Datacores become a lot cheaper, but not before.
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AK Shaman
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Posted - 2007.03.09 11:09:00 -
[141]
So just sell out all you datacores and wait Revelation 1.4 patch(2-3 weeks), clues ... agent price for datacores be droped to 3 times, exploration site datacores drop rate up to 5 times ...
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 23:31:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Dyeadmheet Ok, here's another datapoint. I don't really want to give away all the details on what I'm making since it's one of the few profitable things to make, and I still need to sell 42 of these before the price goes down below the profitable level. All I'll say is that it's a module and I believe the same rules to apply to most modules. This is the only type of module I've tried though. I always used a max run BPC.
Job #1: Encryption 3, Supporting Skills 3 The "+4 run 1.3 success multiplier" decryptor, Best available named item Great news! You were successful in producing a new Tech II blueprint!
Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much.
Blueprint details: Number of Runs: 14 Material Level: -7 Productivity Level: -2
Job #2: Same as above, failed.
Job #3: Got Encryption 4 by this time. Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."
Job #4: Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."
Job #5: Succeeded with: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."
Job #6: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."
Job #7: Failed
Job #8: "You succeeded, but you have a nagging feeling that you can't count on it every time."
So I get the feeling that the message has to do with how close the random number came to the success threshold. (Like if the chance is 75% you get some sort of "you barely made it" if the die roll is 74. But if the chance is only 30% you get the same message if the die roll is 29.)
thx for posting your experiences here,
only few pilots did that so far
and its not needed to see the item (market corner) you have found to make isk.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.10 01:47:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 10/03/2007 01:44:55
Originally by: Maric Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01 Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.
How many attempts is the 75-80% estimate based on?
Sadly it looks like this is going to become sort of like having Production Efficiency 5, except that you'll need level 5 in several skills that take much longer to train. You're going to need level 5 in everything to compete with others with level 5 in everything. This means that it will basically be necessary to have an additional "invention" account for those that don't already have one. :(
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.11 11:16:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Dyeadmheet Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 10/03/2007 01:44:55
Originally by: Maric Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01 Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.
How many attempts is the 75-80% estimate based on?
Sadly it looks like this is going to become sort of like having Production Efficiency 5, except that you'll need level 5 in several skills that take much longer to train. You're going to need level 5 in everything to compete with others with level 5 in everything. This means that it will basically be necessary to have an additional "invention" account for those that don't already have one. :(
yes i think you have got the chance to train all relevant skills to lvl 5 now till ccp makes invention more comfortable (happened 3 times now that lvl 5 was required but later lowered to lvl3 )
so its the good question if an inventor should train all to lvl 5 to find out later lvl 3 give max chances.
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All Clear
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Posted - 2007.03.11 17:11:00 -
[145]
This may be a silly question, but I haven't yet tried invention and I think I need a little clarification.
I've seen mention in this thread and elsewhere that one the 'invention requirements' is to have trained the specific encryption method of the data interface you'll be using in the invention job. I've seen speculation that the higher this particular skill is trained the 'better' the chance of a successful project.
My question is this: where does it say that the encryption skill is required, e.g. to invent T2 1400s, you'd need minmatar encryption methods trained to at least 1.
I don't see it anywhere, although I do understand that you have to have those skills trained to build a particular data interface. The skill req doesn't show up in my invention ui, nor does it make any mention of skilllevel bonuses given towards related tasks.
Where is this information coming from? Is it pure speculation, or an educated guess? Has anyone tried installing an invention job without that related skill trained?
Thanks a lot.
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Reptar
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Posted - 2007.03.11 21:38:00 -
[146]
You need the appropriate racial encryption skill to install the invention job in the lab + both the science skills.
Find the dev posts, or look at the invention tab on the print your interested in.
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AGENT KW
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Posted - 2007.03.11 21:41:00 -
[147]
CCP has finally seeded all the invention tools on the test server - so u can play without burning isk !
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.12 01:35:00 -
[148]
Originally by: All Clear
My question is this: where does it say that the encryption skill is required, e.g. to invent T2 1400s, you'd need minmatar encryption methods trained to at least 1.
It will tell you on the manifest that shows you what materials you're missing when you try to start the job. It will show the skill, and the line will be red if you don't have it.
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.12 03:18:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Effei Gloom on 12/03/2007 03:16:00
Originally by: All Clear This may be a silly question, but I haven't yet tried invention and I think I need a little clarification.
I've seen mention in this thread and elsewhere that one the 'invention requirements' is to have trained the specific encryption method of the data interface you'll be using in the invention job. I've seen speculation that the higher this particular skill is trained the 'better' the chance of a successful project.
My question is this: where does it say that the encryption skill is required, e.g. to invent T2 1400s, you'd need minmatar encryption methods trained to at least 1.
I don't see it anywhere, although I do understand that you have to have those skills trained to build a particular data interface. The skill req doesn't show up in my invention ui, nor does it make any mention of skilllevel bonuses given towards related tasks.
Where is this information coming from? Is it pure speculation, or an educated guess? Has anyone tried installing an invention job without that related skill trained?
Thanks a lot.
a DEV said it:
Invention
and you need the racial encryption skill for the interface or you cant install the invention job into a lab, its required.
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All Clear
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Posted - 2007.03.12 09:25:00 -
[150]
Aha, or maybe Eureka! would be more appropriate.
Thanks for your replies. It doesn't mention that as a required skill in the Invention tab of the particular T1 BPO, but it does when proceeding further into the process of setting up the invention project... the manifest portion, as mentioned.
The Dev posting nails it. Thanks for that. Although it makes me chuckle at how some of the reqs were mentioned in that post as an apparent afterthought by CCP. 'Oh btw...'
Thanks again.
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