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lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
59
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 23:09:12 -
[1] - Quote
Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3119
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 23:51:34 -
[2] - Quote
Try not using a velator.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 00:19:23 -
[3] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now. Odd, it is my personal experience that they are under-powered. Then again, in games of chance, I tend to roll snake eyes all the time.
There are several easy counters to ECM: ECCM (soon to be unified into sensor boosters with scripts which will make ECM even harder to apply), FoF Missiles, Drones, smart bombs, and friends. Friends are good to have.
Running for CSM 11. You should vote for me.
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Paranoid Loyd
8486
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 00:54:06 -
[4] - Quote
It says you were on a gate, and had an MJD, there is no reason you shouldn't have been able to get away. Maybe you need to work on your tactics instead of crying.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
916
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 01:16:42 -
[5] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers Version 1.0.3 10/21/13 By: Aliventi A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.
If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.
In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.
Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.
One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.
"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?
Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6. Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.
See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*
You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.
All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship: Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming
That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.
Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?
EC-300 drone strength is 1. Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming
EC-600 drone strength is 1.5. Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming
Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True: (How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)
5 EC-300 jam strength 1: vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.
5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5: vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.
You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that? |
lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
59
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 06:47:05 -
[6] - Quote
Petrified wrote:lilol' me wrote:Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now. Odd, it is my personal experience that they are under-powered. Then again, in games of chance, I tend to roll snake eyes all the time. There are several easy counters to ECM: ECCM (soon to be unified into sensor boosters with scripts which will make ECM even harder to apply), FoF Missiles, Drones, smart bombs, and friends. Friends are good to have.
stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered |
lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
59
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 06:50:01 -
[7] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers Version 1.0.3 10/21/13 By: Aliventi A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up. If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM. In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated. Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best. One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness. "That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers? Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6. Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing. See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder* You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again. All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship: Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever. Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those? EC-300 drone strength is 1. Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming EC-600 drone strength is 1.5. Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True: (How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number) 5 EC-300 jam strength 1: vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75. 5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5: vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size. You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?
oh dear totally misinformed and you cant take some random stats to make up a story. |
Valkin Mordirc
1912
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 07:18:09 -
[8] - Quote
The fact that you can take a whole report. Like literally that is a full report and respond with a throw away comment. Shows a lot about yourself.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
575
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 07:43:54 -
[9] - Quote
lilol' me wrote: stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered
Then why does every logi PVP fit that's worth it's salt have an ECCM fit?
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
942
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 07:54:06 -
[10] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:oh dear totally misinformed and you cant take some random stats to make up a story. This is a response of a guy to math and statistics.
This is why nobody should take you seriously.
Numbers do matter and if you are trying to *PROVE* something you would do well to acknowledge it.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Mag's
Azn Empire
21333
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 08:03:27 -
[11] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:lilol' me wrote: stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered
Then why does every logi PVP fit that's worth it's salt have an ECCM fit? Not just Logi fits. But you're wasting your time here, the OP is ignorant.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1287
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 08:12:01 -
[12] - Quote
Good news, CCP listened and now they're getting a massive nerf in the form the sebo/ECCM tiericide. |
Arla Sarain
757
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 12:29:31 -
[13] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:numbers and stuff All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that? Your analysis is missing the point.
Being out of the fight for 20s or more because someone pressed a button and the game decided that this one button press deserves leniency.
Damps can be countered through pilot input. So can tracking disruptors. TPs are barely relevant and don't actually disrupt a ship's ability to counterattack.
Whether or not you fit ECCM the ECM game is still a statistic outside of your control no matter what input you make.
Your entire argument appeals to the law of averages. I suppose if a Rifter had 1% chance to fire a doomsday that would be balanced as well? |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11020
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 12:57:40 -
[14] - Quote
Can I have your stuff OP?
Oh wait, you can't hand it over - because you're being jammed by my Falcon moustachio
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2291
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 14:24:31 -
[15] - Quote
A single Maulus could have put you out of the fight just as effectively, if not more effectively, at less than 1/10th of the price.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1082
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 14:33:26 -
[16] - Quote
Fail PVPer get ship blown up because he was jammed. Comes to forums to whine. Film at 11. |
lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
59
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 15:16:57 -
[17] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Fail PVPer get ship blown up because he was jammed. Comes to forums to whine. Film at 11.
lol you gotta love the attention seeking trolls
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
664
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 15:59:46 -
[18] - Quote
This is nothing more than a rant. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1084
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 16:07:02 -
[19] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Fail PVPer get ship blown up because he was jammed. Comes to forums to whine. Film at 11. lol you gotta love the attention seeking trolls
LOL! Gotta love it when a person doesn't have the sense to de-aggress and burn back to gate, and jump. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1867
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 16:28:49 -
[20] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Aliventi wrote:numbers and stuff All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that? Your analysis is missing the point. Being out of the fight for 20s or more because someone pressed a button and the game decided that this one button press deserves leniency. Damps can be countered through pilot input. So can tracking disruptors. TPs are barely relevant and don't actually disrupt a ship's ability to counterattack. Whether or not you fit ECCM the ECM game is still a statistic outside of your control no matter what input you make. Your entire argument appeals to the law of averages. I suppose if a Rifter had 1% chance to fire a doomsday that would be balanced as well?
Your analysis is missing the point.
You're not out of the fight for 20 seconds. You are occupying at least 1 ECM module for those 20 seconds. That allows your fleet buddies to shoot the falcon while it is dealing with you.
I got news for you Solo Sally types: It's an mmo - it would be ridiculous to expect a solo ship to not be perma jammed by a single falcon. The ship has to be useful in small gang up through large fleet engagements. Nerfing it down to where it has trouble permajamming a solos ship would make it totally useless.
Stop being a ninny - it will allow you to make some friends and they can shoot the falcon while it's jamming you. |
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2980
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 18:04:14 -
[21] - Quote
"Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum |
Loradan Illstari
Heretic Army I N F A M O U S
7
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 19:09:47 -
[22] - Quote
The problems with ECM stem from ECM itself, not the ships wielding it. I'd say the Scorpion is way more OP than the Falcon because of the range it can project its jamming, which is far greater. The Falcon actually has to place itself in harms way. The Scorpion only has to worry about getting MJDed on, which it can just as easily MJD away from. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
947
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 05:10:38 -
[23] - Quote
Why do I never see scorpions anywhere.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Tabyll Altol
Viziam Amarr Empire
155
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 08:45:58 -
[24] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Aliventi wrote:numbers and stuff All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that? Your analysis is missing the point. Being out of the fight for 20s or more because someone pressed a button and the game decided that this one button press deserves leniency. Damps can be countered through pilot input. So can tracking disruptors. TPs are barely relevant and don't actually disrupt a ship's ability to counterattack. Whether or not you fit ECCM the ECM game is still a statistic outside of your control no matter what input you make. Your entire argument appeals to the law of averages. I suppose if a Rifter had 1% chance to fire a doomsday that would be balanced as well?
So get some friends and jam the Jammer or damp him, Destroy his ship or neut him. There are so many ways to deal with jammers, be creative and don-¦t cry in the forum.
-1 |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2643
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 16:42:03 -
[25] - Quote
If it really was OP, it would get more solo kill than losses...
What make the Falcon seem OP is because every time you face it, you are stuck in a Xv1 where X is 2+.
Seriously, look at zkill and look at all of the solo kills by falcons. It's never used by itself. Now the real question. If that Xv1 you lost to a falcon'd team was not including a falcon but something else, how often would you really have won? |
Loradan Illstari
Heretic Army I N F A M O U S
7
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 17:17:35 -
[26] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Why do I never see scorpions anywhere.
Obvious answer, because you aren't looking. I see Scorpions way more than I see Falcons. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
191
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 07:06:43 -
[27] - Quote
So. Another Whaaaaaa ECMMMMM thread? Lulz and popcorn abound.
Let me propose a few counters here.
- Drones. Especially on aggressive, they will go after that Falcon. (HMHM!! Smartbomb!! Yeah, a couple of cycles till he caps out.) Drone assists on buddies who are not jammed also work.
- Snipers. Jammers are easy to blap off the field and their jams aren't as effective. Range is your friend here. There's three kinds of falcons: active XLASB, armour falcons and no-tank falcons. How many shots do you need to put in one before it dies?
- getting a lucky dice. Contrary to popular belief, Falcons do not permajam. Unless you have poor skills, no eccm and a small T1 ship. Many ships however do have reasonable sensor strength.
- ECCM (the simple fact YOU don't fit them probably means they're okay ahaha)
- Damps. The Falcon that cannot target you, cannot jam you (or anyone else for that matter). Besides, a Falcon's scanres is very poor so your Maulus or LOLKitsune can jam/damp him first.
- a fleet of same-race ships. People will often fly Rainbow because, let's face it, multispecs on a Falcon don't work really well. You'd need three or four multispecs to net the same result as a racial jammer, meaning the rainbow can jam more for less. Unless of course the enemy brings all Amarr ships; then you have 1 good jammer and 3 very poor longshots.
- if jammed, then pull out of disruptor range and GTFO? They're quite slow you know.
Seems to me whining is easier than honing your skills. This is not how you get anything done. Best advice I can give you: buy a Falcon (griffin, navy griffin, kitsune, rook, blackbird, ... whatever your poison). Fly it. Tell me how roflstomp powerful you feel. Try it and please report how many HACs or Legions or Guardians you permajammed with it.
Or did the mean T2 EWAR ship perhaps jam your poor Atron? Yeah. That was to be expected. Try to think in the same league here. Brokk out. Fly safe and all that. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
661
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 08:30:13 -
[28] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Petrified wrote:lilol' me wrote:Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now. Odd, it is my personal experience that they are under-powered. Then again, in games of chance, I tend to roll snake eyes all the time. There are several easy counters to ECM: ECCM (soon to be unified into sensor boosters with scripts which will make ECM even harder to apply), FoF Missiles, Drones, smart bombs, and friends. Friends are good to have. stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered
Every single docterine fit i have ever flown fitted atleast one more commonly two eccm modules... Granted my corp flies spider tanked stuff alot but every single one has fitted some eccm module... |
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2016.03.06 08:21:30 -
[29] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers Version 1.0.3 10/21/13 By: Aliventi A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up. If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM. In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated. Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best. One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness. "That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers? Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6. Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing. See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder* You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again. All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship: Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever. Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those? EC-300 drone strength is 1. Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming EC-600 drone strength is 1.5. Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True: (How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number) 5 EC-300 jam strength 1: vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75. 5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5: vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size. You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?
This ^ is awesome.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
582
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Posted - 2016.03.06 16:56:45 -
[30] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:lilol' me wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Fail PVPer get ship blown up because he was jammed. Comes to forums to whine. Film at 11. lol you gotta love the attention seeking trolls LOL! Gotta love it when a person doesn't have the sense to de-aggress and burn back to gate, and jump.
This is why I'm not a fan of using jams or sensor damps on gates. I prefer to use tracking disruptors because when you jam someone, that encourages them to deagress as soon as you jam them. In fact, unless they had already launched drones, it deagresses for them. While tracking disruptors only make ttheir guns miss all the time, so it keeps them in the fight for at least another couple seconds.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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