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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2710
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Posted - 2016.02.26 23:05:48 -
[1] - Quote
CSM Minutes wrote:CCP returned to the topic of market taxes. They are thinking of increasing the taxes in NPC stations, by increasing the brokerGÇÖs fee in all NPC stations to 5%. Citadel owners with a market can set their own broker's tax rate, and that broker's tax would then go to the citadel owner. Transaction tax at this time would increase to 2.5%. That's going to be hard to ignore. Very interesting. Also, markets will be available in Large and XL only.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
867
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Posted - 2016.02.26 23:34:27 -
[2] - Quote
Personally, I expect the prices to adjust accordingly, but no mass movement from hubs to citadels, especially not before contracts are in for citadels.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Ria Nieyli
41293
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Posted - 2016.02.27 00:01:03 -
[3] - Quote
So best case scenario with skills and standings continuing to work as they do today we'll have 1.25% sales tax and 0.625% broker fee at maxed out standings versus the 0.75%/0.1875% we have now. A citadel owner could entice you by lowering the broker fee to 0.5%, but given how little people bother to get perfect standings in the first place, I don't think that they'd care. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1286
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Posted - 2016.02.27 05:35:25 -
[4] - Quote
Interesting times...
Ria Nieyli wrote:So best case scenario with skills and standings continuing to work as they do today we'll have 1.25% sales tax and 0.625% broker fee at maxed out standings versus the 0.75%/0.1875% we have now. A citadel owner could entice you by lowering the broker fee to 0.5%, but given how little people bother to get perfect standings in the first place, I don't think that they'd care. I'm half asleep, but if broker fees go from 0.1875% -> 0.625%, that will be 3.33x the current broker fee. That will make the up-front, non-refundable costs of listing a market order a great deal higher and push some currently viable trading strategies into the non-viable column.
Also, because broker fees get charged multiple times during the journey of an item from it's creator to it's end user, the impact on prices is going to be larger.
Expect higher prices on everything, particularly PLEX.
I'm seeing this as a nice boost to the rich, to the detriment of the poor. So, business as usual. |
Kaivar Lancer
Federal Defense Union
892
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Posted - 2016.02.27 11:08:53 -
[5] - Quote
Any Citadel put up in Jita will be ganked during the next "Burn Jita" event, so traders will stick with Jita 4-4 and put up with the higher NPC tax.
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Caldari Lanyaie
Dead Rune Holder
0
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Posted - 2016.02.27 11:24:48 -
[6] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Any Citadel put up in Jita will be ganked during the next "Burn Jita" event, so traders will stick with Jita 4-4 and put up with the higher NPC tax.
Citadels cannot go into market hubs |
Kaivar Lancer
Federal Defense Union
892
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Posted - 2016.02.27 12:21:05 -
[7] - Quote
^ looks like you are right nvm. |
Ria Nieyli
41294
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Posted - 2016.02.27 13:39:22 -
[8] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Interesting times... Ria Nieyli wrote:So best case scenario with skills and standings continuing to work as they do today we'll have 1.25% sales tax and 0.625% broker fee at maxed out standings versus the 0.75%/0.1875% we have now. A citadel owner could entice you by lowering the broker fee to 0.5%, but given how little people bother to get perfect standings in the first place, I don't think that they'd care. I'm half asleep, but if broker fees go from 0.1875% -> 0.625%, that will be 3.33x the current broker fee. That will make the up-front, non-refundable costs of listing a market order a great deal higher and push some currently viable trading strategies into the non-viable column. Also, because broker fees get charged multiple times during the journey of an item from it's creator to its end user, the impact on prices is going to be larger. Expect higher prices on everything, particularly PLEX. I'm seeing this as a nice boost to the rich, to the detriment of the poor. So, business as usual.
Well, base broker fee goes from 1.5% to 5%, so yes. What bothers me is that the new sales taxes would be higher than what the current one plus twice my current broker fee by itself. Then there's the new broker fee tacked on.
At least in EVE people can just stop being poor. |
Alyssa Wyatt
Bazinga Labs
4
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Posted - 2016.02.27 15:58:45 -
[9] - Quote
Caldari Lanyaie wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Any Citadel put up in Jita will be ganked during the next "Burn Jita" event, so traders will stick with Jita 4-4 and put up with the higher NPC tax.
Citadels cannot go into market hubs
Curious how it will be handled if someone's Citadel becomes the 'New Jita' Sure it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible |
Caldari Lanyaie
Dead Rune Holder
0
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Posted - 2016.02.27 17:10:42 -
[10] - Quote
Alyssa Wyatt wrote:Caldari Lanyaie wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Any Citadel put up in Jita will be ganked during the next "Burn Jita" event, so traders will stick with Jita 4-4 and put up with the higher NPC tax.
Citadels cannot go into market hubs Curious how it will be handled if someone's Citadel becomes the 'New Jita' Sure it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible If it's profitable, someone will want to destroy it and replace it with their own. |
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Thoraemond
Far Ranger
199
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Posted - 2016.02.28 18:28:33 -
[11] - Quote
Once the Market Order Broker Fee formula changes, I will feel so lost: <http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Thoraemond/eve-market-order-broker-fees-20110417.png>. Five years is a good run for a graph, though; mustn't complain.
The relevant Helpdesk article was updated a few weeks ago and includes my expression of the formula, so perhaps that will be updated post-patch, to the new formula.
GÇó Graph re Market Order Broker Fees GÇó Diagram re Skills for Remote Trading GÇó
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
735
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:51:38 -
[12] - Quote
So much effort to reach 0.19% broker fees...According to Ria Nieyli's calculations I will now have double total tax - from 0.94% to 1.875%. We shall see what will competition between citadel owners bring. |
Scotsman Howard
The Scope Gallente Federation
31
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Posted - 2016.03.01 15:30:42 -
[13] - Quote
Zappity wrote:CSM Minutes wrote:CCP returned to the topic of market taxes. They are thinking of increasing the taxes in NPC stations, by increasing the brokerGÇÖs fee in all NPC stations to 5%. Citadel owners with a market can set their own broker's tax rate, and that broker's tax would then go to the citadel owner. Transaction tax at this time would increase to 2.5%. That's going to be hard to ignore. Very interesting. Also, markets will be available in Large and XL only.
I brought up this topic and a few others in this thread while ago.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6334529#post6334529
TL:DR: Players will not use a citadel unless the tax rates go ungodly high (5% is not that high overall). The simple fact that you can be locked out (in high sec) or have to pay to get your stuff back when the citadel goes pop, means the extra cost of the npc taxes will be worth it.
Would you rather pay higher taxes or the 20% (or whatever value CCP sets) to get your stuff back from an NPC station once the citadel is blown up?
And for those of you who think an XL Citadel that became the new Jita would not get blown up, you do not get Eve. Unless a huge group (and lets be honest, it is probably only the CFC who have the man power) decides to put it up to make a profit in high sec, they will be the ones to blow it up.
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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
371
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Posted - 2016.03.01 15:34:20 -
[14] - Quote
If these taxes enter the Arena, I really want replenishment possibilities on my orders, I want to keep my stock on a certain level, now you have to cancel and put up a new order.... when this hits, its getting very expensive.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
868
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Posted - 2016.03.02 02:47:03 -
[15] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:
TL:DR: Players will not use a citadel unless the tax rates go ungodly high (5% is not that high overall). The simple fact that you can be locked out (in high sec) or have to pay to get your stuff back when the citadel goes pop, means the extra cost of the npc taxes will be worth it.
Would you rather pay higher taxes or the 20% (or whatever value CCP sets) to get your stuff back from an NPC station once the citadel is blown up?
And for those of you who think an XL Citadel that became the new Jita would not get blown up, you do not get Eve. Unless a huge group (and lets be honest, it is probably only the CFC who have the man power) decides to put it up to make a profit in high sec, they will be the ones to blow it up.
Exactly.
5% just means the markets will adjust. (This usually means prices will rise, even if its only the margins which need to shift, prices will rise, because we like isk!)
To have "new jita" means getting null logistics guys, station traders, T2 builders and mission runners etc to stock your station and rotate orders, then getting pvpers, mission runners, indy guys, miners to all come and buy stuff from what is effectively a floating pinata.
We know eventually that contracts will work for citadels, but, in the mean time, anyone fancy freightering their way to an XL which most definitely won't have the gates around it camped?
Then there is the broker fees going to the citadel owner. We might not mind the relatively insignificant amounts going to POCOs, but, add up your broker fees for a month. Whilst some wont mind, others definitely will not feel like PLEXing someones account.
Finally, yeah, I am not going to move my bulk stuff to a place which I cannot be sure the owner can defend (and, as mentioned already, if you think ganking in uedama is bad, how much more do you think it would happen around a "new" jita?)
While the dream of hundreds of 1 man industry and trading corps joining wars to assist in the defense of a citadel is an attractive one, I have a feeling it is not a realistic one.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2712
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Posted - 2016.03.02 04:24:21 -
[16] - Quote
Remember that this would be only the beginning of the NPC station nerfs. It is quite conceivable that NPC stations will eventually become just a glorified station container.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5706
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Posted - 2016.03.02 04:36:16 -
[17] - Quote
Ugh, this just makes standings even more mandatory to participate in trade.
The game doesn't say "You cannot mine until you have 6 1v1 PVP kills", nor does it say "You cannot enter wormholes until you have suicide ganked a tech 1 industrial", nor does it say "You cannot build a battlecruiser until you complete an Incursion Assault site".
It shouldn't be saying "You cannot trade until you have ground out missions".
I'm going to go against self interest and say that the fairest approach is to have a 2% broker fee, modified *only* by the Broker Relations skill. This will hurt me as I have outstanding standings (>8.5 faction, 9.9 corp) toward the Gallente Federation, Federation Navy, Federation Intelligence Office, and several other Gallente corps, but I feel it's better for the game.
Also, this will seriously undermine the PLEX market, probably to CCP's detriment. Hoarding of PLEX and transport of PLEX for arbitrage are both positives for CCP financially, and both would likely decrease.
As for player-owned hubs: Not going to happen without courier contracts to haul things to them. Once that is solved, hubs created by 0.0 alliances will probably dominate highsec, and be positioned in systems with stations (for 0 fee evacuation of items if the citadel goes boom) and in areas close to their space.
Expect Stacmon to become a hub with trillions in stock in this scenario.
The big issue though is what will convince people with tens of trillions of assets located in Jita 4-4 to create thousands of freighter-sized courier parcels to move out of the established hub? Moving even a billion units of Trit from Jita to a new hub is a significant undertaking; moving a trillion ISK worth is more than a thousand freighter trips.
There's a lot of compact loot in Jita (things like Pith X-type shield boosters, or stacks of datacores, that are small but very expensive). But a lot of loot in Jita isn't.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2712
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Posted - 2016.03.02 04:48:14 -
[18] - Quote
Standings are an interesting topic in this regard. Presumably it would be standings toward the station owner that would matter for trading?
And the big item is plex around Jita. It is already razor thin so there would be a distinct advantage for those cutting down on market fees.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion
75
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Posted - 2016.03.02 07:09:17 -
[19] - Quote
How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff. |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
735
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Posted - 2016.03.02 19:40:46 -
[20] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff.
Yeah, you will just lose 10% of its value (still debatable). Not a big deal, 10% of a trillion is "just" a 100 billion.
I believe the instant resellers will be the ones to move. If you don't have many assets to lose and you quickly sell what you buy, then why not trade in a citadel? |
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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion
75
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Posted - 2016.03.02 21:59:44 -
[21] - Quote
Yeah the percentage hasn't been ironed out I don't believe. And if a jita-esque citadel was destroyed I'd imagine a new citadel would be built in the same system so it would be free to move the assets. So for moving things, I'm guessing that if it has a value of 0, it wont cost anything to recover? So bpc's, AT ships, and a few other potentially valuable things would be free to recover. Doubt it makes a large impact, but it's something.
I probably missed it, but do regional buy orders affect citadels as well? |
Adunh Slavy
1639
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Posted - 2016.03.03 01:46:21 -
[22] - Quote
Next thing you know, ccp is going to promise free medical care and a strong national defense.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5706
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Posted - 2016.03.03 04:29:29 -
[23] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Sheeth Athonille wrote:How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff. Yeah, you will just lose 10% of its value (still debatable). Not a big deal, 10% of a trillion is "just" a 100 billion. I believe the instant resellers will be the ones to move. If you don't have many assets to lose and you quickly sell what you buy, then why not trade in a citadel?
You lose nothing if the goods are safe-transported within the same system/
If a citadel in Eglennaert becomes a replacement for Dodi 9-20 as the Sinq Laison hub, and that citadel pops, you can just move stuff to Egl 1-14 (or any other station) free.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2715
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Posted - 2016.03.03 07:36:48 -
[24] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:u3pog wrote:Sheeth Athonille wrote:How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff. Yeah, you will just lose 10% of its value (still debatable). Not a big deal, 10% of a trillion is "just" a 100 billion. I believe the instant resellers will be the ones to move. If you don't have many assets to lose and you quickly sell what you buy, then why not trade in a citadel? You lose nothing if the goods are safe-transported within the same system/ If a citadel in Eglennaert becomes a replacement for Dodi 9-20 as the Sinq Laison hub, and that citadel pops, you can just move stuff to Egl 1-14 (or any other station) free. Pretty sure that it only the case for another citadel. Transport to NPC stations (even within the same system) would cost 10%. But let's say that Zappity's Magnificent Market, a large citadel in Perimeter, is destroyed. Fred Trader might be able to recover his 100b worth of stock from the delivery system by anchoring a medium citadel in Perimeter. Hopefully the system isn't limited to transfers between structures of the same size.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Ria Nieyli
41474
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Posted - 2016.03.03 07:43:17 -
[25] - Quote
He's not going to get his broker fees back though. |
Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2715
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Posted - 2016.03.03 07:59:32 -
[26] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:He's not going to get his broker fees back though. Well he can just cry himself to sleep. Or he could do the math and figure out that the savings accrued by taking advantage of Zappity's Magnificent Market's discounted fees have already paid for that inconvenience several times over.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2715
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Posted - 2016.03.03 08:00:35 -
[27] - Quote
Double post.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
868
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Posted - 2016.03.03 11:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff.
It is not my stuff that makes it a pinata. The 5d delay is annoying, but not a loss.
An XL citadel is going to cost in the region of 70-90b without fittings, then you have the modules, rigs, service modules.
When it is destroyed, 15% of the hull value has 50% chance to drop as minerals or salvage.
The modules have the same chance to drop as they do from ships.
Any highly successful highsec citadel will be permadecced.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5708
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Posted - 2016.03.03 22:30:30 -
[29] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:Sheeth Athonille wrote:How would a citadel in high be a loot pinata? The loot is protected outside of wh space, it would just get transferred to the nearest npc station. It'll be a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't lose your stuff. It is not my stuff that makes it a pinata. The 5d delay is annoying, but not a loss. An XL citadel is going to cost in the region of 70-90b without fittings, then you have the modules, rigs, service modules. When it is destroyed, 15% of the hull value has 50% chance to drop as minerals or salvage. The modules have the same chance to drop as they do from ships. Any highly successful highsec citadel will be permadecced.
It's one thing to permadec a citadel and another to actually seriously threaten it.
The defender entity has enormous advantages in highsec war, especially where structures that have enormous EHP are concerned. XL Citadel EHP are balanced around the assumption that the attacker will field dreadnoughts and/or supercapitals en masse, and L Citadels around the assumption that small numbers of dreads will be fielded.
The defender can recruit allies with a 4 hour lead time which may even turn the tide of battles over individual timers.
The main thing is that any player market hub will have parties willing to actively defend it.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Viktor Backstrom
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Spaceship Bebop
0
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Posted - 2016.03.05 12:28:09 -
[30] - Quote
What worries me the most about this is how citadel owners can set separate broker fees for different people. So let's say a big alliance creates a citadel near jita and it becomes the new hub. The owners could then set a brokers fee of 1%, but make it 0% for only certain corps in their alliance. Station trading can already be very competitive. Now imagine competing against someone with a 0% fee... |
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