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Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:34:49 -
[1] - Quote
Heres how I see it:
U cant put low skilled vs high skilled players against eachother. Everything in eve is 100% pvp or have elements of pvp and one thing holds true for all of them (I will come to this in the conclusion of what Im about to write) so lets take convensional pvp (like ships killing ships) as an example. Its just not about, like someone said, pitching a high skilled daredevil against a low skilled daredevil, its about taking or not taking the fight. Thats where the win/lose relationship makes most sense to me.
The outcome of this process will ALWAYS be one and the same:
If u die its your own fault and not CCPs fault for making it possible for one character to have more SP than he/she should. This is the beauty of eve.
If u die, lose isk, get your ship blown up in a mission or any other SP/Skill-driven scenario, u dont blame CCP. This is eve, remember? Man up! |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:37:50 -
[2] - Quote
Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion. |
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:44:20 -
[3] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion.
That is true but its not the whole truth. Human nature make it so that the completion of our goals only transform them into something else. Would make no sense to going down the path u are on here. Im talking about the more concrete day to day gameplay of eve. |
Conrad Makbure
Trident Expedition
83
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:47:05 -
[4] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion.
Ok, yeah, thank you for throwing that random point out there.
I agree with the OP, a total new person with millions of SP they bought is still a new person with no experience, but the difference being they have SP now. They won't know what to do with it.
If vets want to do this with alt accounts, then do it. I hope you spend lots of real money doing it. |
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
68
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:47:21 -
[5] - Quote
This did not require a new topic. |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:53:14 -
[6] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion. That is true but its not the whole truth. Human nature make it so that the completion of our goals only transform them into something else. Would make no sense to going down the path u are on here. Im talking about the more concrete day to day gameplay of eve.
Often we expand on the goal once we've reached it because we don't want it to end.
Everyone sets goals which effects their day to day gameplay.
Thing about EVE is it is a sandbox and as such there is nothing you can do to win EVE other than complete the goals that you set yourself. |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 00:58:59 -
[7] - Quote
Conrad Makbure wrote: Ok, yeah, thank you for throwing that random point out there.
The op asks a question in the title, then sets about answering that question in the opening post.
I was also answering the question in the title.
Edit:
As to the content of the opening post, I agree with Krevnos in post #5 |
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7531
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:08:17 -
[8] - Quote
Is it really that hard to write 'you'? This isn't Twitter.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Pix Severus
Empty You
3328
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:12:16 -
[9] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Is it really that hard to write 'you'? This isn't Twitter.
Its like I'm reading a text message from the 90s.
My lord.
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7533
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:20:34 -
[10] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Is it really that hard to write 'you'? This isn't Twitter. Its like I'm reading a text message from the 90s.
On that note, I'm now starting a petition to enable ringtone alerts for notifications on these forums.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Bunny Ellecon
Suo-SHEE Browncoats
7
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Posted - 2016.03.01 01:21:36 -
[11] - Quote
Here's the thing, like many MMOs.
A new person with new skills and new stuff will lose to someone with the same skills, same gear (shipss) but more experience.
However, someone with vastly superior skills and gear (ships) will win when they shouldn't have, if it wasn't for the superior sills/ships/gear.
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Pix Severus
Empty You
3329
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:21:54 -
[12] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Pix Severus wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Is it really that hard to write 'you'? This isn't Twitter. Its like I'm reading a text message from the 90s. On that note, I'm now starting a petition to enable ringtone alerts for notifications on these forums.
You have my vote.
My lord.
|
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7533
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:27:10 -
[13] - Quote
Bunny Ellecon wrote:Here's the thing, like many MMOs.
A new person with new skills and new stuff will lose to someone with the same skills, same gear (shipss) but more experience.
However, someone with vastly superior skills and gear (ships) will win when they shouldn't have, if it wasn't for the superior sills/ships/gear.
Nope.
I met a guy in 2014 who'd just started playing the game. With less than 5mil SP, and two weeks PVP training with me, he killed an '08 vet in lowsec. The '08 had a fully t2 fit ruppy, while my guy had a crappy meta 4 fit thorax.
Your skills account for virtually nothing next to your knowledge and understanding of game mechanics, fitting, ship capabilities, etc etc.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:31:49 -
[14] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Bunny Ellecon wrote:Here's the thing, like many MMOs.
A new person with new skills and new stuff will lose to someone with the same skills, same gear (shipss) but more experience.
However, someone with vastly superior skills and gear (ships) will win when they shouldn't have, if it wasn't for the superior sills/ships/gear.
Nope. I met a guy in 2014 who'd just started playing the game. With less than 5mil SP, and two weeks PVP training with me, he killed an '08 vet in lowsec. The '08 had a fully t2 fit ruppy, while my guy had a crappy meta 4 fit thorax. Your skills account for virtually nothing next to your knowledge and understanding of game mechanics, fitting, ship capabilities, etc etc.
With this game I'd agree with you, but I think there must be quite a few that are thinking in terms of other MMOs. |
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7534
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:38:30 -
[15] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Bunny Ellecon wrote:Here's the thing, like many MMOs.
A new person with new skills and new stuff will lose to someone with the same skills, same gear (shipss) but more experience.
However, someone with vastly superior skills and gear (ships) will win when they shouldn't have, if it wasn't for the superior sills/ships/gear.
Nope. I met a guy in 2014 who'd just started playing the game. With less than 5mil SP, and two weeks PVP training with me, he killed an '08 vet in lowsec. The '08 had a fully t2 fit ruppy, while my guy had a crappy meta 4 fit thorax. Your skills account for virtually nothing next to your knowledge and understanding of game mechanics, fitting, ship capabilities, etc etc. With this game I'd agree with you, but I think there must be quite a few that are thinking in terms of other MMOs.
Well, that's entirely their own mistake, and a demonstration of nothing more than their own lack of understanding of the unique entity amongst games that EVE is.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:38:46 -
[16] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion. That is true but its not the whole truth. Human nature make it so that the completion of our goals only transform them into something else. Would make no sense to going down the path u are on here. Im talking about the more concrete day to day gameplay of eve. Often we expand on the goal once we've reached it because we don't want it to end. Everyone sets goals which effects their day to day gameplay. Thing about EVE is it is a sandbox and as such there is nothing you can do to win EVE other than complete the goals that you set yourself.
Yes we could keep this philosofical thing going but it will end here with the issue that the day to day goals=todays win is important and thats what the current discussion with purchasable SP seem to adress.
What Im saying in the OP is that unless your todays win only revolves around how much SP u got, your SP just wont matter cause the well established mentality of EVE makes it irrelevant. |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:46:22 -
[17] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion. That is true but its not the whole truth. Human nature make it so that the completion of our goals only transform them into something else. Would make no sense to going down the path u are on here. Im talking about the more concrete day to day gameplay of eve. Often we expand on the goal once we've reached it because we don't want it to end. Everyone sets goals which effects their day to day gameplay. Thing about EVE is it is a sandbox and as such there is nothing you can do to win EVE other than complete the goals that you set yourself. Yes we could keep this philosofical thing going but it will end here with the issue that the day to day goals=todays win is important and thats what the current discussion with purchasable SP seem to adress. What Im saying in the OP is that unless your todays win only revolves around how much SP u got, your SP just wont matter cause the well established mentality of EVE makes it irrelevant.
I'd refer you to post #5 as what you are talking about in the op has been discussed at great length in other threads already. |
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:47:24 -
[18] - Quote
Bunny Ellecon wrote:Here's the thing, like many MMOs.
A new person with new skills and new stuff will lose to someone with the same skills, same gear (shipss) but more experience.
However, someone with vastly superior skills and gear (ships) will win when they shouldn't have, if it wasn't for the superior sills/ships/gear.
There is no should or shouldnt win in EVE. If u lose its your fault and u learn from it. That is the way of EVE. Eventually u learn not to take the fight against what u cant beat. leave SP out of the equation. |
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7534
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:51:37 -
[19] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:Eventually u learn not to take the fight against what u cant beat.
What you should be learning, of course, is not to run away from what you 'can't beat', but rather, to figure out how to beat them. I hate the word 'can't', it's so negative.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:52:24 -
[20] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Hate to break it to you but you can't actually win EVE.
The best you can do is set yourself some goals and have the satisfaction on their completion. That is true but its not the whole truth. Human nature make it so that the completion of our goals only transform them into something else. Would make no sense to going down the path u are on here. Im talking about the more concrete day to day gameplay of eve. Often we expand on the goal once we've reached it because we don't want it to end. Everyone sets goals which effects their day to day gameplay. Thing about EVE is it is a sandbox and as such there is nothing you can do to win EVE other than complete the goals that you set yourself. Yes we could keep this philosofical thing going but it will end here with the issue that the day to day goals=todays win is important and thats what the current discussion with purchasable SP seem to adress. What Im saying in the OP is that unless your todays win only revolves around how much SP u got, your SP just wont matter cause the well established mentality of EVE makes it irrelevant. I'd refer you to post #5 as what you are talking about in the op has been discussed at great length in other threads already.
Ive been reading a few of these threads and all I can find is the old SP=win or SP does not outweigh experience/skill debate. That is not what Im saying. If I have missed something plz point me in the right direction! |
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Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
60
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 01:56:25 -
[21] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:Eventually u learn not to take the fight against what u cant beat. What you should be learning, of course, is not to run away from what you 'can't beat', but rather, to figure out how to beat them. I hate the word 'can't', it's so negative.
Sure, point is u learn from your mistakes. Again, this has nothing to do with SP. If it had something to do with SP, EVE would be in big trouble cause then we would be able to use the phrase unfair with our dignity intact. |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
48
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 02:11:17 -
[22] - Quote
Long story short, no. I don't expect to win because I have SP; I expect to win because I am able to out-play the people I am flying against.
Yes, more skillpoints means better modules you can use to help you in the long run, but just having better gear isn't a factor if your opponent has a mind to out-think you with. |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 02:33:20 -
[23] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Ive been reading a few of these threads and all I can find is the old SP=win or SP does not outweigh experience/skill debate. That is not what Im saying. If I have missed something plz point me in the right direction!
Ok, lets look at what you are saying then.
Nad'x Hapax wrote:Heres how I see it:
U cant put low skilled vs high skilled players against eachother. Everything in eve is 100% pvp or have elements of pvp and one thing holds true for all of them (I will come to this in the conclusion of what Im about to write) so lets take convensional pvp (like ships killing ships) as an example. Its just not about, like someone said, pitching a high skilled daredevil against a low skilled daredevil, its about taking or not taking the fight. Thats where the win/lose relationship makes most sense to me.
The outcome of this process will ALWAYS be one and the same:
If u die its your own fault and not CCPs fault for making it possible for one character to have more SP than he/she should. This is the beauty of eve.
If u die, lose isk, get your ship blown up in a mission or any other SP/Skill-driven scenario, u dont blame CCP. This is eve, remember? Man up!
Low skilled players against high skilled players happens all the time, sp injectors won't make any real difference, if anything overtime they may even, even things up to some degree in relation to sp.
100% PvP, that's debateable.
Knowing when to attack a target and when not to is all part of learnt player skills as well as a degree of common sense.
So you also appear to be saying if you're new and use sp injectors then don't blame CCP if you then lose your ship.
Although I don't really see that there's much room for discussion on this subject. You could just as well have made a single statement.
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Pix Severus
Empty You
3330
|
Posted - 2016.03.01 03:25:41 -
[24] - Quote
I only wish it was still possible to remove skills from players who hadn't updated their clones yet. CCP could've quite literally made a killing from it.
My lord.
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Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
61
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 11:35:09 -
[25] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Ive been reading a few of these threads and all I can find is the old SP=win or SP does not outweigh experience/skill debate. That is not what Im saying. If I have missed something plz point me in the right direction!
Ok, lets look at what you are saying then. Nad'x Hapax wrote:Heres how I see it:
U cant put low skilled vs high skilled players against eachother. Everything in eve is 100% pvp or have elements of pvp and one thing holds true for all of them (I will come to this in the conclusion of what Im about to write) so lets take convensional pvp (like ships killing ships) as an example. Its just not about, like someone said, pitching a high skilled daredevil against a low skilled daredevil, its about taking or not taking the fight. Thats where the win/lose relationship makes most sense to me.
The outcome of this process will ALWAYS be one and the same:
If u die its your own fault and not CCPs fault for making it possible for one character to have more SP than he/she should. This is the beauty of eve.
If u die, lose isk, get your ship blown up in a mission or any other SP/Skill-driven scenario, u dont blame CCP. This is eve, remember? Man up! Low skilled players against high skilled players happens all the time, sp injectors won't make any real difference, if anything overtime they may even, even things up to some degree in relation to sp. 100% PvP, that's debateable. Knowing when to attack a target and when not to is all part of learnt player skills as well as a degree of common sense. So you also appear to be saying if you're new and use sp injectors then don't blame CCP if you then lose your ship. Although I don't really see that there's much room for discussion on this subject. You could just as well have made a single statement.
Some things u got right and some things u didnt get right. I dont even know what you are trying to say anymore |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 11:38:02 -
[26] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Some things u got right and some things u didnt get right. I dont even know what you are trying to say anymore
Then I guess that works both ways.
|
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
61
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 11:47:44 -
[27] - Quote
Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Some things u got right and some things u didnt get right. I dont even know what you are trying to say anymore
Then I guess that works both ways.
Your purpose is clear though. What u are trying to say is not. Just to clarify |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1077
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 11:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Stop whining and go play eve for god sake... Kids those days. |
Aviola von Yodalgut
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 11:57:33 -
[29] - Quote
Nad'x Hapax wrote:Aviola von Yodalgut wrote:Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Some things u got right and some things u didnt get right. I dont even know what you are trying to say anymore
Then I guess that works both ways. Your purpose is clear though. What u are trying to say is not. Just to clarify
My purpose?
If you think there is a purpose beyond trying to understand what you are actually trying to say, then you are gravely mistaken.
But as you say 'Your purpose is clear ...' then I guess you think I'm trolling, which I'm not. So I think it's best we forget it as things are unlikely to improve. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Skeleton Crew.
216
|
Posted - 2016.03.02 12:33:54 -
[30] - Quote
Yes and no. SP IS important if you specialise in the right way, having 20 mill SP and specialising in a particular ship and fit can be far more better than having 100mill sp and not really specialsing more generalising.
We often see lower skilled pilots killing higher ones and this is probably where your going. However people are not completely stupid. if you specialise then you know what your ship is capable of and what your targets should be.
If your taking about newbs adding 50 mill SP instantly and trying to say it doesnt make a difference because they dont have the knowledge then i disagree. its basic facts my ship and skill are better than yours. The game usually for many is point, lock, shoot and over heat oh and orbit, thats it. So its who last longer. Havi9ng the right skills makes a huge difference, whether youre a newb or not.
Now there are a few players that are real combateers who actually think what they are doing and these are the people who are hard to beat but thats probably 20% of the people you would encounter.
So actually yes people do expect to win if they have decent SP otherwise why even bother training at all. On some occasions based on above you will die. but I agree you do have to learn the mechanics of the game to in order to be a 'better' pilot. |
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