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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
HatePeace LoveWar
Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:54:00 -
[481]
Its harsh for the dev's who have to change their characters, unless they did of course abuse their position and assisted their alliance, in which case i have no pitty for them.
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Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:54:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra
That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?
Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?
The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?
Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.
Is this a court of law?
Does it matter? Are you saying the burden of proof should be different... just because you say so?
Nope, what I am saying is that this is clearly not a legal venue, and as such, legal posturing should be left out of it. This is CCP's game and CCP's decision to make, not yours nor anybody elses. How they choose to communicate that decision is totally up to them and they have to live with their decisions.
To borrow a Goonism.... just sayin.
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Gekidoku is recruiting |
Navdaq
Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:55:00 -
[483]
Cheating CCP employees.
A new low.
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Berious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:56:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Herculite Without reading every page of this soon to be epic thread, what I see happened was this.
The fact that a dev was playing in BoB at one time came out from the illegal hacking.
Lots of tinfoil hats were donned.
CCP investigated if there was cheating involved but the logs were not adiquate to prove it or disprove it.
For the good of the game the characters involved in all this get deleted even though it may have been grossly unfair to those involved.
Based on what t2 bpo's he had, for a guy who started playing at the start of the game, it seems quite possible that they were legit. Now being a dev would mean you would know how to 'play the r&d game' before everyone else, so it might have been 'unfair' in that way, but in terms of mechanics I'd be willing to bet no cheating went on. If I were cheating to get t2 bpo's I'd have had much better ones.
But if people have lost their characters just to keep the vultures happy thats pretty sad.
That same hacking shows the dev in question was quite open about his employment status, in contravention of CCPs policies. If you accept the hacking was real then we know some funny business went on, we just don't know how deep it goes.
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Dragutinovic
Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:01:00 -
[485]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Kieron,
Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found? From Sir Molle
I think that you personally posting player personnel Info on the forums is a bannable offense correct? You editing and removing AFTER half of the EVE community already read the post says alot that your still in game eh ?
Its like i said CCP are biased towards certain people in this game . They cant be fair and neutral wich has been proven time and time again . _____________
Im back !
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Amiable Quinn
Minmatar Lasleinur Production
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:02:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra
That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?
Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?
The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?
Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.
Is this a court of law?
Does it matter? Are you saying the burden of proof should be different... just because you say so?
This is not a court of law. If this WAS a court of law the prosecution would have something called "discovery" where they would be able to use subpoena power (well if they worked for the government) to:
1. Gain access to all of CCP's computer records. 2. Gain access to all of BoB's records 3. Gain access to all of Kug's computer records 4. Depose all relevant individuals.
Quite frankly this is not a court of law (and not a case that any court of law in any country would be remotely interested in). As such our only source of information are what we see in the blogs and what we get from CCP.
Those of you arguing that "this would never convict someone in a court of law completely miss the point. We can only go on the evidence that is presented to us. If CCP refuses to address this information or show any transparency then any ensuing tin-foil hattery is on their heads, because they refuse to honestly address the issue.
As someone who deals with "burden of proof" on a daily basis allow me to say that MOST cases (especially white collar crimes) are decided on circumtantial records, especially e-mail logs. Why? Because non-circumstantial evidence requires a witness, and often there are no witnesses in these cases.
This is why it is vitally important for CCP to address some fundamental questions:
1. How was this investigation undertaken?
2. Was any malfeasance discovered?
3. What specifically are the rules for CCP employee participation in EvE? (Eg.. Are they allowed to scam? Are they allowed to win T2 BPO's? If discovered are they allowed to transfer their assets?)
4. How is CCP employee oversight handled?
Quite frankly Kieron, CCP's response is wholly inadequate and this is rapidly turning into a "jump the shark" moment for CCP.
And no offense Avon, but your dogged defense of BoB and the Devs is succeeding in doing nothing but convincing the general public that Bob was complicit in developer misconduct.
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Candy
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:02:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Travis Raven
Originally by: Drakma Is this a court of law?
No no it's clearly MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.
Hey dude, don't make jokes, EVE is SERIOUS BUSINESS.
Also, UKM Thorgrim, a real man deletes his characters in protest. That'll show em!
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Jane Spondogolo
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:04:00 -
[488]
Can someone explain to me what on earth makes people think that "Dont tell wont ask" is a good idea re Devs in alliances.
Being sneaky doesnt solve conflict of intrest. It merely hides it.
Either NO devs in alliances (my personal prefered options), or it should be made public knowledge WHO those devs are.
Or should we just have this same drama over and over again everytime an "anthonyz/kugutsu/wtf hes called today" turns up and blows the lid off it all?
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:05:00 -
[489]
So I wonder if any devs are going to respond about the t2 bpos and other stuff of relevence that everyone is waiting for or if this post will be the last and they will try and sweep it under the carpet, which after 15 pages I think might be the case which is utter crap.
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dfgdfgerdv
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:07:00 -
[490]
This discussion all boils down to, "We are jelouse of BOB, therefore they must cheat"
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Logan Feynman
Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:07:00 -
[491]
A couple of handy quotes, for those that missed them:
Originally by: kieron We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.
Originally by: Virtuozzo Look, for all those who think Kieron is going to post again with more investigation results, read what he said. The matter is closed. This is it.
Originally by: kieron Long and short of it, you either believe the Devs and continue to play EVE, or you don't believe the Devs and you chose whether or not to continue playing EVE.
Originally by: Dianabolic Decide to stay and play, or don't
Originally by: Logan Feynman The only ones that will know the entire story are CCP, and you can either: a) trust them and STFU b) not trust them and leave the game
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"Life is no way to treat an animal." ~Tombstone of Kilgore Trout |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:09:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Can someone explain to me what on earth makes people think that "Dont tell wont ask" is a good idea re Devs in alliances.
Being sneaky doesnt solve conflict of intrest. It merely hides it.
Either NO devs in alliances (my personal prefered options), or it should be made public knowledge WHO those devs are.
Or should we just have this same drama over and over again everytime an "anthonyz/kugutsu/wtf hes called today" turns up and blows the lid off it all?
CCP play Eve, they will continue doing that no matter what you think. I think most of us agree that that's a good thing. Kieron also stated tha they will NOT limit them in freedom within the gameplay. Both dev aaccoutns as well as private accounts seem to be audited, so that gives some reassurance that everythign will be ok.
That mean these options remain:
public chars sekrit chars
Option one isn't chosen because in effect it would do NOTHING to alleviate tinfoilhattery.
Option two *is* chosen to protect said devs from *you* and not vice versa.
[center] Old blog |
Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:10:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 07/02/2007 15:20:50 We don't play with Devs. We play with characters, normal eve pilots - if one of those pilots turns out to be a dev, I really don't care, because they never got treated any different by me, or anyone else.
This is not about how you treat Devs.I don't know why your defending CCP seeing as they just allowed your Alliance to be perceived as a bunch of cheaters when they could have exonerated you and put this whole Pantomime to rest once and for all.All CCP have done is pour more blood in the water for the conspiracy theorists.
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Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:12:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Drakma
Is this a court of law?
lol, clearly not.
If it was this case wouldn't be getting heard, that's for sure.
I OBJECT!
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Gekidoku is recruiting |
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:13:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Shin Ra on 07/02/2007 16:10:49 I'm not taking K's ramblings as gospel by any means. He raised a controversial point, showed evidence (which is easy to fabricate as its just computer text). This strated a chaing of events. Now the key factor here which gives the whole argument at least some credabilitiy, is that we have admissions that K did gain access to RKK forums and did have access to such information. Still, that doesn't make it true, he could have found nothing and made it all up. But its enough to make me ask questions and its certainly enough to make all the haters ask questions. Furthermore, the alleged Bob threats to K as a response is futher fueling the flames. And K's posts of the incident don't proove or disproove the event happened. It just shows intent. Combine these 3 factors and you have the makings of a stronger case. Granted the internet spaceship tribuneral would probably give a "not proven" verdict without any more evidence. So I will finish posting here (yes my last post on this subject) with a quote from a Scottish tour gide on the "not proven" thing:
We know you did it, we canna proove it, so away ya go and don't do it again!
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31i73
BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:13:00 -
[496]
I wonder if this is related: I'd like to see how long I have paid my current sub, but I Can't. Maybe too many are trying to do it at once?
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:13:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Travis Raven
Originally by: Drakma Is this a court of law?
No no it's clearly MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.
To be honest, you win.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:14:00 -
[498]
rofl! rod blaine , yea accounts are audited so its obviously okay!
FUNNY HOW THEY DIDNT FIND ALL THIS STUFF OUT UNTIL A REGULAR EVE USER BROUGHT IT TO THERE ATTENTION. obviously there auditing isnt good enough , it will be intresting to see what pcgamer UK make of all this
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:14:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Berious
That same hacking shows the dev in question was quite open about his employment status, in contravention of CCPs policies. If you accept the hacking was real then we know some funny business went on, we just don't know how deep it goes.
Being open about your status with people in game doesn't mean anything funny is going on.
I read some of the hacked info threads, but most likely not all of them, but from what I read I didn't see anything that really spelled out cheating. Likewise I couldn't trust such information as it would be very easy to put a faked email in with all the real hacked stuff.
This is where you need game logs, but as someone who has had some experiance with this sort of thing checking logs in another game for cheating, unless the logs are desgined to show cheating, its VERY difficult and time consuming, even if you had every keystroke logged to find it amoung the giggabytes of information they can contain. Most logs are not every keystroke of course, and as such they might not have been set to record actions that were required to either make a bpo or 'trigger' an agent. Therefore you could never prove or disprove cheating in this case.
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Lyer
THE BLUE FLAG
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:14:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Laythun The press release says nothing at all.
No content, nothing. Just marketing words for 'we banned him, we think wat he did was bad, we like to make money, we are giving you no answer'
Im pretty disappointed.
This statement will not put the issue behind us because its a cop out. Basically he was banned and thats it, no word on anything else that happened.
As someone who works in marketing tut tut CCP.
No ban, his chars got deleted because people discovered his ccp identity, not because he actually did something wrong.
It's the usual policy, and there's mroe devs affected then those in bob too afaik.
How do you know there are more Devs involved? May I ask where this is public knowledge?
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:15:00 -
[501]
*snip* This is not appropriate for the eve-o forums, and also has no relation to it, do not post it again - hutch
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:15:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Susan Acid
Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 07/02/2007 15:20:50 We don't play with Devs. We play with characters, normal eve pilots - if one of those pilots turns out to be a dev, I really don't care, because they never got treated any different by me, or anyone else.
This is not about how you treat Devs.I don't know why your defending CCP seeing as they just allowed your Alliance to be perceived as a bunch of cheaters when they could have exonerated you and put this whole Pantomime to rest once and for all.All CCP have done is pour more blood in the water for the conspiracy theorists.
we're used to that, it's only going to get worse rather then better too as the fanboys seem to somehow continue to play for years even tho they're so desillusioned and all.
It would have been nice if kieron had posted with a bit mroe detail, and a bit more forcefull in exonerating the employees and players involved. But all in all we probably don't see this as much different from past and future tinfoilhattery.
Not saying we don't care, just saying we see it as a given that people will try score cheap points every time.
[center] Old blog |
Urban II
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:16:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Dianabolic I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken...
Quote: Originally Posted by Dianabolic ...hell even t20 secret infos i had in the past, i trusted u all with those. Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:09 pm
More fabricated evidence from Mr K right?
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Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:17:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?
I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?
Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.
It's in the logs of the forums and pms he posted, Shin, where dbp and Judicator finally decided that no real life cash would change hands for it. I don't have the logs, I'm sure you can sign up to kugs sight for them if you wish.
Either way, dbp says no money changed hands, I believe him, ccp haven't banned him, proof enough for me.
That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?
Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?
Jud left the game and gave the character, gratis, to dbp.
So you're confirming that the chatlogs Kugu posted were actually legitimate, not fabricated and DPB did indeed intend to buy the character for real life currency disregarding the EULA entirely?
So why isn't he banned then?
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team. |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:24:00 -
[505]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 16:22:50
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Rod Blaine
CCP play Eve, they will continue doing that no matter what you think. I think most of us agree that that's a good thing. Kieron also stated tha they will NOT limit them in freedom within the gameplay. Both dev aaccoutns as well as private accounts seem to be audited, so that gives some reassurance that everythign will be ok.
That mean these options remain:
public chars sekrit chars
Option one isn't chosen because in effect it would do NOTHING to alleviate tinfoilhattery.
Option two *is* chosen to protect said devs from *you* and not vice versa.
And you wonder why the community are convinced that there is misconduct here: BoB posters such as yourself are falling all over themselves desperately defending the rights of Devs to be in BoB.
If you are innocent, simply separate yourself from CCP and play the game like everyone else, neh?
Failing that, anything you do, ever, will be written off as Dev-backed cheating. BoB cheers on devs, devs cheer on BoB, community says 'screw this' and takes the news of the incestuous relationship to the gaming press.
The only sensible solution to any of this nonsense that will actually remove the stink of impropriety from the game is for CCP to ban devs on Tranquility, or at the very least remove them from any 0.0 alliances.
I dont care if there's no devs in BoB, I care wether they play their game. Imo they should, more people still think they should, CCP themselves are convinced they should according to Kieron.
We can debate the use of live playing by devs all night, but it's not goign to change the fact that they will play on tq, and be in your, mine, and anyone else alliance when doing it.
So, that comes down to CCP caring less about the 'stink of impropriety' as you call it, and their conviction that they need to be playing on tq. I fully agree with them there, because that stink is always goign to be there anyway, the tinfoil is strong.
[center] Old blog |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:25:00 -
[506]
Originally by: The Mittani
And you wonder why the community are convinced that there is misconduct here: BoB posters such as yourself are falling all over themselves desperately defending the rights of Devs to be in BoB.
No, I defend the right for the Devs to be in any corp / alliance that they so choose. We know that when this kicked off that there were player characters of Devs in several alliances (as stated by kieron). Did we demand that they be made to leave those alliances and join BoB?
Silly boy.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Seamus O'Flannery
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:25:00 -
[507]
This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.
Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:26:00 -
[508]
I'm sure that any number of gaming magazines (online and paper) would love to run a story about the possibility of developers in/of an MMOG played in the game and manipulated it to their advantage in any number of ways.
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:26:00 -
[509]
I dont see how anyone can say how nothing was found. Kierons original post might as well of been locked for no content...
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Eldo Davip
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:29:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Seamus O'Flannery This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.
Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.
If you have problems with our moderation email us at [email protected] and one of our leads will explain any problems you have. ___
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER
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