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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Alakazam
Bob The Builder Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:14:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42 This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality. It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe. [..] Sad times.
What do you expect the community to think?
In the beginning I was just laughing at the BoB postings where you said you had to use node-crash buttons, having devs in your team, ofcourse you were cheating etc- I knew you were playing the same rules as the rest of us.
But then this thing happened and I thought, hang on a second?! what if there is something to it? _what if_?
And still BoB members have this top-down approach to the rest of the community regarding this issue. Still stating you have more access then the rest of us. There is no empathy with the rest of the community. That saddens me.
No smoke without fire, it makes me think twice now and I wish I wouldn't do that...
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Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:16:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 10:07:00
Originally by: Lyticus
Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.
- Lyticus
So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me? The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?
Added: Post above nails the rest.
good example avon. Just go one step further imagine that fansite not just phish for your login details, in which case ccp could take steps due to an eula violation but instead of other passwords. Passwords which are maybe connected to your work or bank and hence wouldnt really fall under ccps jurisdiction since technically they are not related to eve, eventho the "binding elemet" of all the cases would be the game....
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Lyticus
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:17:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lyticus
Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.
- Lyticus
So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me? The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?
No, you are missing my point.
I explained that the devs were telling others that they were devs, releasing the information onto their forums and generally behaving in an illicit manner.
What everyone seems to be focusing on is the manner in which kugutsumen obtained the information, which was by entering into the BOB forums and browsing their sensitive areas.
The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.
So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?
I put it to you that the devs are originally to blame for this entire situation, and thus the fallout should not affect members of the community which had no control over the informations initial distrubution.
If someone else had discovered this and had not presented it to all the EVE community via the forums, it would have been discovered through the g*****vine in due time.
EVE isn't as big as everyone thinks.
- Lyticus
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:19:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42 This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality. It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.
Stuff
Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.
I know I certainly would.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:21:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Logan Feynman
Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Lyticus Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence
Amen.
Originally by: Suspension and Ban policy, section 7
e. Publishes private communications from CCP, Siminn, their agents or representatives, including members of the EVE volunteer program, within the game world, official web site, or other venues without authorization.
ah they devs were playing as CCP representatives ? BoB are CCP representatives ?
interesting new twist...
no he was threatening ccp staff members not once but multiple times. Which is covered in another paragraph as a bannable offence. Furthermore he posted rl information about some devs which is and always was enough for a ban. The policy was and is "if you uncover a dev/ccp employee or find one whos cover is blown mail kieron" and not "try to blackmail for isk and damage ccps reputation on the forums".
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:21:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15 Are you for real Luticus ?
He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.
How can you even defend such an idiot ?
Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:21:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Lyticus
The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.
So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?
Yes it's the devs fault Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods. |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:22:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Originally by: Sinlare The philosophy of both entities doesn't even come close.
I know what you are--an idiot. I also know what you aren't--Niaski Zalani's spokesman. You're putting out some really, really weak trolling here.
I like what you're doing, keep it up :)
A customer is a customer is a customer until a court order says otherwise. I think most hosters in NL share that same mindset.
yarr. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:22:00 -
[219]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42 This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality. It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.
Stuff
Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.
I know I certainly would.
As would I.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:22:00 -
[220]
OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!
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Gekidoku is recruiting |
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Anonymous Coward
Gallente Panopticon Citadel
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:23:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Sinlare Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.
What he does is not illegal where he lives, and pretexting is also illegal in many parts of the world.
Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.
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Lyticus
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:23:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 10:20:59
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Lyticus
The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.
So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?
Yes it's the devs fault Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.
More wrong eh?
EDIT: Post above has a good point, its only be alleged, not proved.
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Logan Feynman
Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:24:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Lyticus
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lyticus
Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.
- Lyticus
So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me? The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?
No, you are missing my point.
I explained that the devs were telling others that they were devs, releasing the information onto their forums and generally behaving in an illicit manner.
What everyone seems to be focusing on is the manner in which kugutsumen obtained the information, which was by entering into the BOB forums and browsing their sensitive areas.
The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.
So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?
I put it to you that the devs are originally to blame for this entire situation, and thus the fallout should not affect members of the community which had no control over the informations initial distrubution.
If someone else had discovered this and had not presented it to all the EVE community via the forums, it would have been discovered through the g*****vine in due time.
EVE isn't as big as everyone thinks.
- Lyticus
First of all, he did not bump into that information. He hacked into forums with the specific intent to find anything that could be interpreted as unacceptable behaviour. He posted snippets from there, and we have no means to discern how much is true and how much was fabricated on the spot.
The argument "parts are true, therefore all the other parts must be true" is a very weak one, if you know your logic. And this is the way most yellow press works ... part true, part fabrication. The only ones that will know the entire story are CCP, and you can either:
a) trust them and STFU b) not trust them and leave the game
Pick one, act on it. While it would be peachy to hear more from Kieron on this, I highly doubt it. This is all there is. This is whyt you get to make your choice on. .
"Life is no way to treat an animal." ~Tombstone of Kilgore Trout |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:24:00 -
[224]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.
I know I certainly would.
I think everyone does and hopefully ccp will see that too. It just so sad to see people defending a really bad person and taking so much joy out of developers getting fired in real life. |
Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:24:00 -
[225]
Poor, poor show CCP ! First banning all accounts from that guy who brought the mud into the light to shut his mouth. Now that statement that sounds like Rumsfeld asked about chemical stuff in Iraq ! Looks to me very fishy !!!
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots |
Luna Liandri
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:25:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15 Are you for real Luticus ?
He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.
How can you even defend such an idiot ?
always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...
boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:25:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 10:23:50
Originally by: Alakazam
What do you expect the community to think?
I don't care what they community actually think, just so long as they *DO* actually think.
The problem is that many aren't thinking, they are happy to be swept along on a wave of popular hysteria.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:29:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Avon This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality. It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.
Your post was a terrible example of effective propoganda. There are few facts here that we can be certain of, but, we can be certain of them.
1. K. named several characters in the BoB alliance exclusively, as being employees of CCP. 2. K. made some other rather damning claims about actions by specific and named members of the BoB alliance. 3. In response, Kieron and Oveur made posts regarding an investigation being made into these claims. 4. Kieron posted "a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game."
These are all FACTS. There is no tinfoil hattery in the above. There is no smear campaign that can be debated about these points.
This is not a witch hunt, but yes, these are truly sad times indeed. Especially so, considering that since #1 has been shown to be true, then #2 is quite likely equally true. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter how that truth was obtained, and all the "witch hunt" and "but... but.. he's an evil bad hacker" cries in the world will be unable to obfuscate the grim reality the EVE community is now facing.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:29:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Luna Liandri
always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...
boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.
Shoot the messenger that used illegal action to obtain his message. Yes, please do shoot and don't miss.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:33:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Originally by: Sinlare Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.
What he does is not illegal where he lives, and pretexting is also illegal in many parts of the world.
thank god ccp is an icelandic company and the servers he hacked are in the uk/us so all the semi legal rambling of how it is legal for him to hack and phish is bollox. Btw not beeing illegal doesnt mean encouraging in a legal way.
As for poor Kungu stumbeling over this evidence, he hacked into forums and mailboxes with the intent to find something interesting in a taboloid way. The info about the dev was -Not- posted in a regular thread for everyone to read but it was found in the inbox of one of the board users. So hardly "known amongst BoB".
Last but not least the trustworthyness of the information. The "finder" as in Mr.K. admitted on the goonforum to be a hacker, Mr.K was already filed a punishment for hacking, Mr. K more or less openly admitted to hack, either himself or one of his companions, forums. Trustworthy over Kieron ? Not in my book.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:34:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:32:25
Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15 Are you for real Luticus ?
He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.
How can you even defend such an idiot ?
always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...
boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.
Logic, sidestep ?
I didn't see any logic that I havent adressed earlier already.
Normal healthy and respectfull players stfu when they connect a dev with a player account. The CCP rule on recycling those character when thay are made public isn't there to protect you, but to protect them from being harrased by people with questions, statements and utterly idiotic accusations.
What protects you is the auditing and the ethos of CCP employees, and that's quite enough.
Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
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bioqaz eylee
Amarr LifeLine Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:35:00 -
[232]
who cares where the information came from, whether it be BOB, a hacker, the press, off the back of a crisp packet, my wife mumbling in her sleep or even picked up via shot wave radio.
Surly all that matters is what is being done about it. and that seems not a lot from what we are being told.
bio
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Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:36:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Captain Thunk
Cheers for the BoB spin bud, but I don't think it'll be working this time.
I wasn't referring to the BoB guy who got banned for the 0isk macro (which I believe requires python injection code, if CCP think that's only worth 2 weeks thats up to them) - he was never kicked from the corp though, he just waited out the ban - no need to "let him back in" as he never actually left. I was actually referring to the 10/10 complex BoB rent to macroers for a large slice of ISK.
As I said, in order to compete on the same level with BoB those that continue to pay their subscription will certainly consider ignoring their EULA as so long as nothing written ingame leaves a trail you will get off scot free, plead ignorance or claim it's a massive conspiracy because people are jealous.
Like it or not, BoBs killing Eve - apathy won't save it.
CAPTAIN THUNK
Its no spin to have a different view then you have. As for the macroer "let back in". The case was discussed with him and there was an option he would be kicked when it got known that his acc was temp banned. To let him back in might be morally wrong in the worst case but its up to the bob leadership to decide not up to you. It would be equally morally wrong to let in a guy with a forumban, since technically he also violated the rules ccp setup for this community.
As for the whole "known macroers" mumbojumbo, BoB rented a plex to a corp. Any corp can rent a plex with BoB. If you have doubts about a corp doing "macroing" file a petition. As much as you would love to believe it BoB is not ccp and hence cant deal with ingame eula issues and wont believe every wild accusation you or the other fanboys fire off. If the corp in question was caught cheating the bob leadership would terminate the plex contract. Not guilty until proven otherwise, a saying you might wanna think about before you push the reply button once again because i highly doubt uve understood it.
As I said, I was never talking about the macroer - thanks for yet another paragraph on him anyway.
The macroing "mumbo-jumbo" is a reference to the conversation Sir Molle and DBP had regarding renting that complex to a particular corp where they both stated that they were macroing and considering how much of the profit they could squeeze out of him...but admidst all this confirmed evidence that's the one Kugu made up isn't it?
As I said - plausible deniability - Because the BoB leadership are getting away with blatant cheating, others are now going to follow suit knowing full well that so long as they don't use ingame chat or evemails to discuss it they have a guaranteed chance of getting away with it - how else are they expected to compete against "the best"?
You may call it "highlevel gaming" I call it the end.
CAPTAIN THUNK
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team. |
Dragutinovic
Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:37:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15 Are you for real Luticus ?
He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.
How can you even defend such an idiot ?
Then some of you lot should get a ban as well tbh . You gotta agree with me that some of you get away on teh forums andingame with a lot more then others .
Rockduiveltje incident : -> No actions taken ****uko -Yaeko (sp) incident : -> No actions taken Goonswarm incident : -> No actions taken
You lot demanded the " ebayers " and " macroers "of PA to get slapped and kicked , yet some of you are guilty to that as well .
As for the dev/gm/bpo thingy i leave that to the " wichhunters " however after teh Goon incident and now this i do demand some of BoB due get their asses kicked .
_____________
Im back !
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Mr Bananas
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:38:00 -
[235]
Perhaps that fellow would like to out some forum mod identities? I doubt anybody would be much surprised, though. I am consistently unhappy with the quality of moderation in these forums. |
31i73
BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:44:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Avon
CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances" Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.
I think you are missing the point here. Its not about how devs shouldn't play the game being in bob. Its about giving unfair advantage via ingame items, or knowledge of events.
Besides, you should be happy, you won. The guy that dared to oppose you can't play his chars anymore, and now this: CCP just deletes the chars that got revealed, you can still continue playing as you have.
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Anonymous Coward
Gallente Panopticon Citadel
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:45:00 -
[237]
So we're back to the "yes he hacked our forums but didn't actually post anything from them, just lies" arguments again.
Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:46:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Alledged illegal action.
You're right, but no need to defend it so much, especially from a professional point of view. And yes, i know dutch hosters have that policy :) |
Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:46:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Avon
I don't really see where you are trying to go with your post.
I don't feel I was being obtuse. You said "witch hunt" about 3427567 times, and I pointed that it doesn't appear to be a witch hunt at all. Keep spinning though. Perhaps people will be able to somehow stop noticing the gigantic elephant in the living room.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:49:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:46:25
Originally by: Dragutinovic Then some of you lot should get a ban as well tbh . You gotta agree with me that some of you get away on teh forums andingame with a lot more then others .
If we do it's because we mostly excalate in reaction to trolling. It's also a fact that most BoB active posters are good at treading the line.
Quote:
Rockduiveltje incident : -> No actions taken ****uko -Yaeko (sp) incident : -> No actions taken Goonswarm incident : -> No actions taken
Please explain these. I know that rockduiveltje was more or less insulted quite heavily back then. Not that she was any better as far as I remember, but I forget what exactly happened there.
Quote:
You lot demanded the " ebayers " and " macroers "of PA to get slapped and kicked , yet some of you are guilty to that as well .
We are ? And we did ?
Quote: i do demand some of BoB due get their asses kicked .
Quote:
Makes you wonder if its worth keep fighting teh good fight in this game as so to speak .
The good fight ? Beam, eye, pot, kettle, black, whatever ?
During the PA war things got out of hand as well o teh smack/propaganda front. They always do. I personally find that a bit sad, but it's mostly due to the same thigns that make this game great so you take it in your stride.
Things become rather different once immediate wars are over tho. What i cannot understand and never have udnerstood is that alot of people don't seem able to let the tension level lower again after a war has been decided ingame, and continue to not just smack and spread lies, but also seem to actually believe wha they say.
If anything, it's fanboyism that's killing Eve.
Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
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