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Nadja Hawk
Out of Pod Exploration
7
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Posted - 2016.03.09 17:17:41 -
[151] - Quote
Gedrick frogue wrote:Hi All Just been reading this Patch notes for marchI do like the way they have put a large change to eve under "Miscellaneous" I thought watch lists were a bit more important to people TBH it's a useful tool to every player in eve and this new option that both parties have to consent to be visible to each other simple beens that next week everyone might as well delete the contents of their watch lists are they have just become completely useless Should prove a huge advantage to some players and vise versa a huge disadvantage to others Gunna be a lot of people docked up or offline during war dec's now though that's my thoughts :) Cheers Ged
nothing has changed, get a spai into his corp and you'll see if he is on or not |
Kamahl Daikun
Back To Basics. Tactical Supremacy
95
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Posted - 2016.03.09 17:21:49 -
[152] - Quote
Nadja Hawk wrote:nothing has changed, get a spai into his corp and you'll see if he is on or not
Is that seriously the solution you're proposing or are you just trolling? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
291
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 17:50:46 -
[153] - Quote
As for an actual solution, locator agent the guy then just follow him with a covops.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
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Sola Atruin
Mutant Space Kittens
5
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Posted - 2016.03.09 18:57:13 -
[154] - Quote
I don't like it.
As already mentioned, there is no local in J-space, so the non-consensual watch list was a pretty important tool to gather intelligence.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
97
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:16:19 -
[155] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Pandora Carrollon wrote: I hope that is 'on topic' enough.
No offense (I know you are new) but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. CCP often announces sweeping bull headed changes and has to retract them when the players bring up concerns they didn't consider. They did it just a few weeks ago with force auxiliary skill books. Unfortunately for me, I doubt they will retract this one because too many people support it. I won't quit over it but it may force me out of wormhole space to find content. I guarantee if the "no free intel" crowd had to spend a day without watchlist OR local they would be singing a different tune. There's nothing fun about playing eve by yourself.
Thank you for being sensitive to my newness. I have seen CCP 'short announce' stuff before, "Hey guys we just did THIS", so I'm not that new. I agree with everyone that says that's GARBAGE and a poor way to operate.
I think the on topic point would be, how we can make it so that CCP *WANTS* to engage the player base and wants to get us involved in decisions and maybe deeper testing of things like Watchlist removal.
Threads like this that beat the holy living snot out of them for this stuff would seem to counter any desire they might have to engage us. Thus my other point about trying to be positive and when we get our hands on a change, THEN we can positively beat the snot out of the change... not CCP.
I realize how we play EVE is very personal to all of us, thus my comment about it being my game. We shouldn't trash CCP though just because they do something that impacts our play style. Maybe we could find out why they are doing it, dev blogs and all, maybe they would give us some time to play with it, maybe pigs can fly and I'm just not seeing them because they have cloaking devices.
Regardless of the change or if they spring it on us. It's up to us to determine how we take it... with a 'sure I'll try it' or tactical nuclear weapons lobbed in Iceland's direction. I tend to prefer the former method.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
97
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:21:38 -
[156] - Quote
Kamahl Daikun wrote:However, unlike us, CCP makes the decision, goes through their process, and implements it without consulting their users. This isn't the first change they've made that we didn't, and still don't, like. Ironically, a lot of games go through this process. The collective anal clench can still be felt in some communities years later and, really, it's a ****** model.
I agree with you, their model isn't perfect, no company's is; as you pointed out. I also think everyone gets what's being said, poor announcements, timing, lack of testing, all of that exists and I don't deny nor do I like it. I do understand it though and anyone that has worked in IT and Coding practices can understand it too.
So, is it possible to fix this process so we can avoid these issues in the future by working with CCP now? Today it's a sacred cow Watchlist, tomorrow it could be an even bigger sacred cow, and I'd rather hear about it sooner and test it sooner rather than later.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
97
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:26:44 -
[157] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: however i agree: the game needs to provide RL statuses for players like "he is active and on keyboard atm" or "he is afk" or "he is in ship with this fit" so players can evade all unneeded stuff like killboard digging, scanning, predicting and just have fun in this game killing each other.....
How about an 'in space' flag on the player portrait screen. You look them up and can see if they are in space. No, it won't tell you they are AFK, part of the tactic of deal with hunters is being AFK. If someone is griefing you, you should be able to make them be a little miserable back. Other MMO's don't allow stalking behavior. EVE does, so you have to counter it with other equal tactics. I'm not sure you should ever know if someone is AFK without eyes on their ship. Docked/offline is a different matter.
(Sorry for the triple post folks.) |
Mishra San
249
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:34:08 -
[158] - Quote
remove watch lists; good.
remove 'magical' local list for all security space; better.
improve d-scan somehow to compensate for it; bestest.
.2cents
Steve Ronuken for CSM XI!
sending virtual hug, virtual hug sent!
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d0cTeR9
Oceanic Death Squad SpaceMonkey's Alliance
316
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:37:01 -
[159] - Quote
About time. Easily one of the most OP intel tool.
Been around since the beginning.
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Isaac Armer
Humbling Experience
114
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Posted - 2016.03.09 20:05:48 -
[160] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote: Not to sound like a ****, But if a mechanic changes and the optimal solution is to give up something you've been doing for years.
It's not that great of an option.
Every mechanic change means someone has to change what they have been doing for years. Adapt.
Omar Alharazaad wrote:And then there are those of us who DO live and hunt in High Sec. If a war target logs in 30 jumps away, and I know this may seem strange to you, there's a pretty good chance of some people like us disembarking in fast ships and heading over there to get eyes on them and set up a hit. That's just how we roll from time to time.
The 'Go to Null/Low/WH space if you want fights' argument is tired and invalid. PVP is viable in all sectors of space.
The new changes are going to present those of us who make house calls with some new challenges. We're going to have to adapt, but it wont be easy by any means. It's still too early to determine how massive of an impact this is going to have on our playstyle. I predict many neutral flying monkeys saturating areas where targets have been spotted or killed in the past, just for starters.
The 'go to null/low/WH space is 100% valid. HS is supposed to be a bit safer, and a bit harder to PvP in. Wardeccing carebear corps is just a risk averse way to PvP, and wardeccers aversion to leave HS because of this change simply solidifies this fact. |
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Syri Taneka
Un4seen Development Sev3rance
123
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Posted - 2016.03.09 20:35:56 -
[161] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:You can see wardeccers in system, why do you need to know if they're online?
Need to move to another system? Use a scout. Hell, a T1 frigate should suffice, you are in highsec after all.
For the record, a t1 frigate is not good enough.
Though it comes down to chance at that point, Interceptors and Cloakies can and will be caught by highsec Warcampers.
Ultimately, if you live anywhere except Nullsec, a wardec means you either do nothing for a week (staying docked) or do nothing for a week (keeping the wardeccers docked).
Unless you have alts outside your corp/alliance who aren't subject to a Wardec. |
Commander Spurty
Moosearmy I N F A M O U S
1615
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Posted - 2016.03.09 20:48:31 -
[162] - Quote
Next up, removal of locator agents.
CCP - Making SPACE FRICKEN HUGE again ~2016 (I forget the Star-date. I'll hand in my Nerd-card to the next Star Trekker I see LARPing around Kendal Square)
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Spurty
Moosearmy I N F A M O U S
1615
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Posted - 2016.03.09 20:48:31 -
[163] - Quote
Next up, removal of locator agents.
CCP - Making SPACE FRICKEN HUGE again ~2016 (I forget the Star-date. I'll hand in my Nerd-card to the next Star Trekker I see LARPing around Kendal Square)
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3658
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 20:56:42 -
[164] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:HS is supposed to be a bit safer, and a bit harder to PvP in.
And it is. Unless you know a good way to put together a gang and roam around fighting everything you see in highsec.
Isaac Armer wrote:Wardeccing carebear corps is just a risk averse way to PvP, and wardeccers aversion to leave HS because of this change simply solidifies this fact.
Another one of these. Look, we understand. You don't grasp the lifestyle and think it's easy mode or risk averse because it's not how you do it. You don't get some of the core motivations behind it, yet you've decided that we all think a certain way.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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Leeluvv
Polarized
77
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:01:59 -
[165] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Leeluvv wrote:Wormholes have 2 forms of Intel, as there is no local:
Watching players in a POS Contact watch lists
Oh, bugger... Did you know there's this thing called a directional scanner? It shows you all ships that aren't cloaked or combat recons at a distance of up to 14.3 AU within a conical section of 5, 15, 30, 60, 90, 180, or 360 degrees.
Wow, I didn't realise that it would also tell who is docked in a Citadel. Thanks for the excellent advice. |
Leeluvv
Polarized
77
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:03:07 -
[166] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Leeluvv wrote:Wormholes have 2 forms of Intel, as there is no local:
Watching players in a POS Contact watch lists
Oh, bugger... On a phone so making links is annoying. Google "eve uni d-scan". You're welcome.
And another one that thinks DScan can see inside a Citadel. |
Isaac Armer
Humbling Experience
115
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:03:31 -
[167] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:HS is supposed to be a bit safer, and a bit harder to PvP in. And it is. Unless you know a good way to put together a gang and roam around fighting everything you see in highsec.
Sure, you wardec 200+ corps and simply fight anyone you see.
Quote: Another one of these. Look, we understand. You don't grasp the lifestyle and think it's easy mode or risk averse because it's not how you do it. You don't get some of the core motivations behind it, yet you've decided that we all think a certain way.
I do grasp the lifestyle. I tried it for a bit. It's incredibly boring. There is virtually zero risk behind it, given 95% of your targets aren't prepared to fight back. It's almost as risk averse as mining or ganking.
The core motivation from what I've seen is to make easy ISK with drops and keep inflated KB stats up. Not to have any sort of real challenge when playing. |
Lulu Lunette
ThinkTank Phoenix TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
307
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:09:51 -
[168] - Quote
The more nerfs to highsec, the better.
@lunettelulu7
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Bear Templar
iMine Industries The Five
13
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Posted - 2016.03.09 21:10:15 -
[169] - Quote
Finding out someone you've known for years didn't have you on their watchlist....
If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw)
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2660
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:17:34 -
[170] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:Cristl wrote:Leeluvv wrote:Wormholes have 2 forms of Intel, as there is no local:
Watching players in a POS Contact watch lists
Oh, bugger... On a phone so making links is annoying. Google "eve uni d-scan". You're welcome. And another one that thinks DScan can see inside a Citadel.
Watchlist could tell me if a player I never even met in space or elsewhere if he is online. Why should I be granted that kind of intel without even needing to be ONCE in the same system as he was? Why was I able to run a script to create contact of every single member of a corp and WL them without having to do any work to collect any of that intel?
The fact that is was good and usefull does not mean it was not also broken and stupid at the same time. I could see it being defended if it had at least a medicum of requirement to use but it wasn't even that. You could WL anyone at will which granted you his status and he had no counter play at all beside not logging in that character but even that is only low counter play because he does not even know he is on a WL.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2567
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:21:18 -
[171] - Quote
inb4 rage threads because of the increase of cloaky alts \o/
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3659
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:23:19 -
[172] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:I do grasp the lifestyle. I tried it for a bit. It's incredibly boring. There is virtually zero risk behind it, given 95% of your targets aren't prepared to fight back. It's almost as risk averse as mining or ganking.
The core motivation from what I've seen is to make easy ISK with drops and keep inflated KB stats up. Not to have any sort of real challenge when playing.
Two nights ago I flew my Stratios right into a five-man ambush. No boosters, no neutral reps, just me going face-first into a Rokh, a Maller, and a few destroyers. Your characterization of the people who do what I do is generalized and inaccurate. For every What Squad hanging off a hub with piles of logi behind them, there are a dozen guys like me who just enjoy the nuance of the hunt in highsec.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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Kamahl Daikun
Back To Basics. Tactical Supremacy
97
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:24:52 -
[173] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Watchlist could tell me if a player I never even met in space or elsewhere if he is online. Why should I be granted that kind of intel without even needing to be ONCE in the same system as he was? Why was I able to run a script to create contact of every single member of a corp and WL them without having to do any work to collect any of that intel?
The fact that is was good and usefull does not mean it was not also broken and stupid at the same time. I could see it being defended if it had at least a medicum of requirement to use but it wasn't even that. You could WL anyone at will which granted you his status and he had no counter play at all beside not logging in that character but even that is only low counter play because he does not even know he is on a WL.
You seem to be operating under the idea that the WL is giving you any specific information. As someone mentioned earlier, it's only useful for super pilots since they log off in their ship and typically never leave it. Aside from that, it's simply telling you if they're online or not. Following your logic, we should remove: 1) Local chat - It's free information. You have Dscan, probes, and the ability to move around. Stop using free intel as a crutch 2) Corp/Alliance Chat - How do you know if they're online? It's free intel for spais. Stop using it as a crutch 3) Any and all other sources of free intel - Because crutch
The Watchlist wasn't some super amazing intel database of everything they're doing and flying in. It just says they're online. So what? |
Mortlake
Devils Rejects 666
2033
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:27:42 -
[174] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:
Sure, you wardec 200+ corps and simply fight anyone you see.
No, you don't.
Isaac Armer wrote:
I tried it for a bit. It's incredibly boring.
I'm sorry you were terrible at it. Your bitterness is misdirected, it's not our fault.
Isaac Armer wrote:
The core motivation from what I've seen is to make easy ISK with drops
This reinforces the fact that you know very little about what many of us do, and is probably why you were terrible at it.
Isaac Armer wrote:
Not to have any sort of real challenge when playing.
You're either trolling, or thick as ****. Either way you aren't qualified to comment and have clearly been a victim at some point, an incident that you evidently haven't gotten over.
Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2660
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:34:13 -
[175] - Quote
Kamahl Daikun wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Watchlist could tell me if a player I never even met in space or elsewhere if he is online. Why should I be granted that kind of intel without even needing to be ONCE in the same system as he was? Why was I able to run a script to create contact of every single member of a corp and WL them without having to do any work to collect any of that intel?
The fact that is was good and usefull does not mean it was not also broken and stupid at the same time. I could see it being defended if it had at least a medicum of requirement to use but it wasn't even that. You could WL anyone at will which granted you his status and he had no counter play at all beside not logging in that character but even that is only low counter play because he does not even know he is on a WL.
You seem to be operating under the idea that the WL is giving you any specific information. As someone mentioned earlier, it's only useful for super pilots since they log off in their ship and typically never leave it. Aside from that, it's simply telling you if they're online or not. Following your logic, we should remove: 1) Local chat - It's free information. You have Dscan, probes, and the ability to move around. Stop using free intel as a crutch 2) Corp/Alliance Chat - How do you know if they're online? It's free intel for spais. Stop using it as a crutch 3) Any and all other sources of free intel - Because crutch The Watchlist wasn't some super amazing intel database of everything they're doing and flying in. It just says they're online. So what?
1) Have to at least have someone in the same system to get said information. WL required nothing except adding a name to a list.
2) You need to be in contact or be yourself a member of said corp/alliance as opposed to adding a bunch of name to a list.
Knowing when someone was online or not was half the battle for anyone who used the WL since you knew if it was worth looking for him or not, hunting him or not, hiding from him or not, ... Saying it didn't provide any details is denying the truth. If it didn't provide anything of use, people would not ***** about it going away. |
Starrakatt
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID
380
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:35:53 -
[176] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:HS is supposed to be a bit safer, and a bit harder to PvP in. And it is. Unless you know a good way to put together a gang and roam around fighting everything you see in highsec. Sure, you wardec 200+ corps and simply fight anyone you see. Quote: Another one of these. Look, we understand. You don't grasp the lifestyle and think it's easy mode or risk averse because it's not how you do it. You don't get some of the core motivations behind it, yet you've decided that we all think a certain way. I do grasp the lifestyle. I tried it for a bit. It's incredibly boring. There is virtually zero risk behind it, given 95% of your targets aren't prepared to fight back. It's almost as risk averse as mining or ganking. The core motivation from what I've seen is to make easy ISK with drops and keep inflated KB stats up. Not to have any sort of real challenge when playing. I used to be a merc and do Hisec wardecs, I was a hunter, almost never camped a hub or trade pipe. Specific target hunting (as in contracted targets) can be long and boring, yes. Removal of Watchlist just surmultiplied the dificulties of it. I'd say its pretty much dead as a playstyle.
As for the 'zero risk/95% unprepared' comment... We got hotdropped by a 35 super fleet last week, there was zero risk involved for the hot droppers, yeah.
Nulsec is much of the same most of the time - I was there too.
Pot, kettle, all black.
All playstyles are valid, all playstyles are relevant, not only your's and your opinion.
Sneaky bastard.
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Isaac Armer
Humbling Experience
115
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:39:50 -
[177] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Two nights ago I flew my Stratios right into a five-man ambush. No boosters, no neutral reps, just me going face-first into a Rokh, a Maller, and a few destroyers. Your characterization of the people who do what I do is generalized and inaccurate. For every What Squad hanging off a hub with piles of logi behind them, there are a dozen guys like me who just enjoy the nuance of the hunt in highsec.
And you can easily do the same thing outside of HS. That's literally the point.
Mortlake wrote: No, you don't.
How many corps do you currently have wardecced right now?
Quote:I'm sorry you were terrible at it. Your bitterness is misdirected, it's not our fault.
I was far from bad at it. Fighting innocent carebears who can't/don't fight back is hardly difficult or challenging playstyle.
Quote:This reinforces the fact that you know very little about what many of us do, and is probably why you were terrible at it.
Keep spinning it however you need to. It looks like you do nothing but kill industrials and mining ships. Wow, such difficulty! What's the point of playing, when you are going to only fight people who can't fight back? Leave HS and actually challenge yourself, carebear.
Quote:You're either trolling, or thick as ****. Either way you aren't qualified to comment and have clearly been a victim at some point, an incident that you evidently haven't gotten over.
Thanks for proving my point though, mate. I was waiting for a carebear wardeccer to give me some salt for posing what I did. When I get wardecced I disappear into NS/WHs, and I bet dollars to doughnuts you're too afraid to follow. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1953
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:41:06 -
[178] - Quote
Kamahl Daikun wrote:You seem to be operating under the idea that the WL is giving you any specific information. As someone mentioned earlier, it's only useful for super pilots since they log off in their ship and typically never leave it. If that's true why are people who aren't hunting supers and just waging wars in highsec not liking the change?
Kamahl Daikun wrote:Aside from that, it's simply telling you if they're online or not. Following your logic, we should remove: 1) Local chat - It's free information. You have Dscan, probes, and the ability to move around. Stop using free intel as a crutch 2) Corp/Alliance Chat - How do you know if they're online? It's free intel for spais. Stop using it as a crutch 3) Any and all other sources of free intel - Because crutch
The Watchlist wasn't some super amazing intel database of everything they're doing and flying in. It just says they're online. So what? 1) A number of people already support this 2) Corp chat is the same as watchlist now. It's a mutual association that both the corp and it's members consent to with an obvious counter: Leave the corp. 3) So what else gives you intel on someone for nothing more than knowing their character name aside from info intended to be public and they can't opt out of? |
Isaac Armer
Humbling Experience
115
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 21:44:05 -
[179] - Quote
Starrakatt wrote:I used to be a merc and do Hisec wardecs, I was a hunter, almost never camped a hub or trade pipe. Specific target hunting (as in contracted targets) can be long and boring, yes. Removal of Watchlist just surmultiplied the dificulties of it. I'd say its pretty much dead as a playstyle.
As for the 'zero risk/95% unprepared' comment... We got hotdropped by a 35 super fleet last week, there was zero risk involved for the hot droppers, yeah.
Nulsec is much of the same most of the time - I was there too.
Pot, kettle, all black.
All playstyles are valid, all playstyles are relevant, not only your's and your opinion.
I don't live in nullsec. Sov null is equally risk averse as wardeccers and gankers. LS/WHs are really the only challenging parts of the game, IMO. |
Starrakatt
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID
382
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 22:02:24 -
[180] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Knowing when someone was online or not was half the battle for anyone who used the WL since you knew if it was worth looking for him or not, hunting him or not, hiding from him or not, ... Saying it didn't provide any details is denying the truth. If it didn't provide anything of use, people would not ***** about it going away. No offense, but... no.
From Nulsec or Lowsec perspective I realize why removing watchlist is both good (Super pilots) or irelevant: You usually don't hunt THAT or THIS specific target, you hunt in enemy space and kill anything not blue, I get that. THAT is Nulsec/Lowsec/WH hunting, and it is good.
Hisec hunting doesn't work like this at all. You can't decide to go and hunt in their Sov or NPC region or Home System, for they usually don't have any. Hisec Corps and Alliances are usually scattered all over Empire. You don't a specific constellation or Region to scout out. You got dozens.
You are in Nul or Low, using the Starmap you get 'free' intel about where ratting happens, Industry Index where mining happens, you know their Capitals and Staging, hunting is much easier, in the roaming sense of the word. You can't do that in Hisec, just not possible, unless you mass wardec Corps and Alliances, and even then most of the roam's catches are going to be in Hubs and trade pipes.
I hunted targets in Hisec on and off for years between Nulsec (and now Lowsec) periods, using Watchlist and Locators. It is usually a long and protracted effort to get some kills. Once Online and Located, you realize that 90% of the players you are looking for are either in a cloaky, docked or our of your reach (deep in Nul or in a WH).
For a hunter of specific targets, Watchlist is, or was, an essential tool to at least know who is online before running a Locator and do 30 jumps with your scout.
Without Watchlist, you will now do 60 jumps and run at least 2 Locators: Thats your scout coming back after finding out the guy is actually Offline.
Then you rince and repeat 85 times on your Contracted targets, instead of doing it 10 times on actually Online targets.
CCP made the decision, and removed Watchlist, fine enough. It will save or kill a lot of Caps and Supers. However it also practically killed a playstyle.
Sneaky bastard.
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