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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Duke Killem
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2016.03.10 15:51:55 -
[61] - Quote
HPA Darkfield Oramara wrote:Duke Killem wrote:So what happens when a large alliance decides to tell all it's members to use PD and ONLY choose cytoplasm for all results? I presume they get to the goodies faster.
In a game where people screw over each other is core gameplay for some PD doesn't really have the right audience! Since we have some images that we already know the answer to, we will filter you out if you get too many of these totally wrong. That also applies if you select the same location over and over.
Phew....that restores a little faith that this isn't happening.
Cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, GONG, GONG, GONG Cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, cytoplasm, nucleus, GONG. GONG. GONG |
Bastien Laval
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.03.10 16:10:09 -
[62] - Quote
So for all the cytoplasm mashers
This is Cytoplasm:
http://imgur.com/RGnnaps
This is not (still had 30% cytoplasm in community consensus)
http://imgur.com/LsU8Nps
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Beta Maoye
103
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Posted - 2016.03.10 16:46:32 -
[63] - Quote
I am concerning the problem that if most people click exit to avoid difficult images, eventually those who take time to tackle difficult tasks will be punished by the system. I think there should be some kind of negative consequence if a player constantly click exit and retry to pick easy image. Improvement of one's accuracy at the expense of others should be discouraged. |
Ria Nieyli
41695
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Posted - 2016.03.10 17:28:58 -
[64] - Quote
I'm wondering if there's a way to report corrupt images, since I just got this one. |
Bastien Laval
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.03.10 18:01:50 -
[65] - Quote
I chose abnormal sample in the bottom left of the picture |
HPA Darkfield Oramara
Polaris Corporation
5
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Posted - 2016.03.10 18:07:50 -
[66] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:I'm wondering if there's a way to report corrupt images, since I just got this one.
Well spotted! We just got aware that images like that are in the game and will try to remove them asap. However, they should be really rare and result of an error while acquiring the image. Sometimes the images also look a bit "wobbly" due to vibrations while taking the image (resulted by moving the microscope table for example). But most of those images should have been removed from our database already! |
Sp3ktr3
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.03.10 18:31:44 -
[67] - Quote
It's really disheartening to see so many people either randomly picking things, or deliberately choosing the wrong ones. My hope is that the clowns and trolls will quickly get bored with it and leave before they drive everyone else away from the project. |
dor amwar
Interstellar Renegades Advent of Fate
4
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Posted - 2016.03.10 19:11:16 -
[68] - Quote
i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.
for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2196
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Posted - 2016.03.10 19:23:03 -
[69] - Quote
HPA Darkfield Oramara wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Haven't played with it much yet. I'm kind of wondering about that what-looks-to-be-an-image-ID in the lower right hand corner. If that's what it is, I expect we'll have a database of known-good answers and bots to supply them, before long.:\ Also it seems super easy to cheat by just closing the window if you get a hard one. I've seen a few where I just went at the cluster-F of green, closed it, and opened it back up to a nice, clean Nucleoplasm. The images are re-named before they enter the game so there's no risk of finding the IDs anywhere else! Of course that could be a possibility, but after a while when more and more images reach a consensus answer, and hence not be available in the game anymore, there will only be the hard ones left But on the other hand, the whole objective of the project is to help us with the hard ones that we are not sure about, so just give them a try even though you're not perfectly sure!
Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?
So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.
Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Krevnos
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
81
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Posted - 2016.03.10 19:39:29 -
[70] - Quote
dor amwar wrote:i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.
for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ?
No, you're not the only one there. I have seen a case where variability of FITC binding between cells was missed. I have also seen a case where a protein which was obviously migrating to intercellular junctions was reported only as 'cytoplasm'. |
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HPA Illuminator
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.03.10 19:56:56 -
[71] - Quote
dor amwar wrote:i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.
for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ?
This should probably be answered by someone from CCP, I'll forward forward the comment to HPA_Dichroic in our group! |
HPA Illuminator
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.03.10 20:10:29 -
[72] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:HPA Darkfield Oramara wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Haven't played with it much yet. I'm kind of wondering about that what-looks-to-be-an-image-ID in the lower right hand corner. If that's what it is, I expect we'll have a database of known-good answers and bots to supply them, before long.:\ Also it seems super easy to cheat by just closing the window if you get a hard one. I've seen a few where I just went at the cluster-F of green, closed it, and opened it back up to a nice, clean Nucleoplasm. The images are re-named before they enter the game so there's no risk of finding the IDs anywhere else! Of course that could be a possibility, but after a while when more and more images reach a consensus answer, and hence not be available in the game anymore, there will only be the hard ones left But on the other hand, the whole objective of the project is to help us with the hard ones that we are not sure about, so just give them a try even though you're not perfectly sure! Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations? So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small. Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.
Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there)
http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm
It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see! |
Duke Killem
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2016.03.10 20:21:21 -
[73] - Quote
HPA Illuminator wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?
So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.
Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.
Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there) http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see!
Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not! |
HPA Illuminator
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.03.10 20:30:13 -
[74] - Quote
Duke Killem wrote:Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there) http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see! Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not!
Those images have been selected as being really pretty though :) but if ppl are choosing cytoplasm incorrectly we will be able to filter out the results from lazy ppl (as HPA_Darkfield pointed out) but we can also take into account if there are certain locations that seem to be more tricky for the players to distinguish.
Having said that, I'm not working with image analysis but if you're interest I could ask HPA_Dichroic (who's specialized in the field) to write a better comment? |
Verlyn
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2016.03.10 20:34:25 -
[75] - Quote
What does ticking Abnormal Sample do exactly ? |
HPA Illuminator
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.03.10 20:50:47 -
[76] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:What does ticking Abnormal Sample do exactly ?
It was meant as a way to highlight images with a distinct pattern that didn't match any of the categories. - a way to find things we might have missed (by having this system when we label images ourselves, this is how we found the rods and rings category about a year ago). I'm not sure if this is how the players have used it... Will be interesting to find out :)
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Memphis Baas
1310
|
Posted - 2016.03.10 20:53:06 -
[77] - Quote
It probably marks it for them to review in person. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2196
|
Posted - 2016.03.10 21:11:58 -
[78] - Quote
Duke Killem wrote:HPA Illuminator wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?
So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.
Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.
Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there) http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see! Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not!
Yup, I agree. All of these examples clearly have a very "fuzzy", almost fluid quality to them, and that is not what I see at all in many of the popularly-selected-as-cytoplasm images.
I will definitely be fussier about selecting that, myself, having looked at these more closely.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2016.03.10 21:43:30 -
[79] - Quote
Not saying I'm completely correct here, but there are some very weird votings here: http://puu.sh/nBYTB/725f6995d8.jpg
But my point is that it is very bad if that the majority votes wrong, it should penalize those who were actually right. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2196
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Posted - 2016.03.10 21:46:54 -
[80] - Quote
So, what happened to the guy in the top left, here?
http://imgur.com/a/9T2TN
All of the others have nucleus staining, but the "shattered" one doesn't. It's almost like the nucleus-goo (legit science term here) leaked out and that's the green staining around it.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Duke Killem
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2016.03.10 21:57:13 -
[81] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:So, what happened to the guy in the top left, here? http://imgur.com/a/9T2TN All of the others have nucleus staining, but the "shattered" one doesn't. It's almost like the nucleus-goo (legit science term here) leaked out and that's the green staining around it.
You found it!!!! He's the one that turned into a drifter. Prof Lundberg will be pleased, A+ for you. She can now come up with some virus to infect those nasty Jove like creatures. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3045
|
Posted - 2016.03.10 22:02:46 -
[82] - Quote
One of the big ones that confuses me is when is it Nucleoplasm and when is it Nucleus. Since the two are mutually exclusive, but it's very unclear what defines them and you don't have Nucleoplasm in your dictionary.
Also there is an in game channel running for this under the name of "Project Discovery" |
Verlyn
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2016.03.10 22:36:04 -
[83] - Quote
Ok one more question, does it have to be only one answer per picture or is selecting several matches at once a possibility also ? |
Duke Killem
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2016.03.10 22:40:59 -
[84] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Ok one more question, does it have to be only one answer per picture or is selecting several matches at once a possibility also ?
Can be more than one, say what you see.... Hint, it's not always cytoplasms ;) |
Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
100
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Posted - 2016.03.10 22:53:11 -
[85] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Silvenin wrote:Let's look at an example... (yes, click "example") On the left side we have the image itself, at the top with all 3 colors visible, at the bottom with blue filtered out. On the right side we have my answer (nucleoplasma) and the already accepted answer (nuclear specles). Either I'm terribly wrong... or the majority of voters are. If I'm wrong I would very much like to hear why. Thats a tutorial image, and the accepted answer you are trying to match is that of a researcher, not a popular vote. Its not nucleoplasma because it's not sufficiently uniform. The rewards for accuracy in the actual samples drop to zero when your accuracy drops low enough. I think what will happen: An actual researcher will check the results, find the real answer, and then the system automatically grades everyone. Those button mashers will get a low score and their reward for continued play will be zero. At that point, most will stop.
There is a reason why even researchers fight over this stuff and why using a computer actually is a better way as you can be far more objective.
The homogeneity is not very different from the examples given for nucleoplasm (especially if you look at the additional examples) and regular roundish nucleoli are clearly present.
Nuclear speckles are much more well defined points and none of the examples show such clear nucleoli holes. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1701
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Posted - 2016.03.11 02:05:17 -
[86] - Quote
It's because, on the slides that aren't handpicked tests, there is green crap all over the place all of the time.
Even if it's a slam dunk nucleus slide you look and, hey, there will be some green crap going for a walk in the red in that corner cell.
No wonder they haven't cured cancer yet. |
Don Pera Saissore
81
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Posted - 2016.03.11 04:36:03 -
[87] - Quote
HPA Darkfield Oramara wrote:Duke Killem wrote:So what happens when a large alliance decides to tell all it's members to use PD and ONLY choose cytoplasm for all results? I presume they get to the goodies faster.
In a game where people screw over each other is core gameplay for some PD doesn't really have the right audience! Since we have some images that we already know the answer to, we will filter you out if you get too many of these totally wrong. That also applies if you select the same location over and over.
do you know the majority of the correct ansewrs? cos if you dont have the majority then the incorect answer could end up correct if combined with the farmers and the button mashers |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
297
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Posted - 2016.03.11 05:13:06 -
[88] - Quote
Well i had same problem:
http://www.netsky.org/eve/WRONG.png
it should be correct answer, but it isn't ?
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HPA Illuminator
State War Academy Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2016.03.11 06:46:28 -
[89] - Quote
Summary of my replies:
#78
Difficult to tell for sure what is is when red/blue is toggled on but it looks like cytoplasm or aggresome to me (really ugly cells though :'( ). I guess the blue marker could hide a nuclear staining, but very hesitant reg. that.
#79
What you see in the upper left corner is a cell undergoing mitosis = dividing. The DNA (blue) has been duplicated and densed up, and the next step will be for the copies to be separated (by the red microtubules) into the two daughter cells.
#81
Nucleus and nucleoplasm are really similar, and it can be difficult for us as well to distinguish between them. Nucleoplasm = everything in the nucleus except the nucleoli, so I'd actually say it's a more specific term than nucleus. In some cell types, it's extremely hard to find examples of nucleoplasm, it just won't show in either the green nor the blue channel (for us, it's somewhat easier as we'll be looking at the same protein in three different cell types at the same time during the evaluation, and if one of them shows nucleoplasm, we will look more carefully for it in the others).
#82
As many as you see! I think (if I remember correctly) that approx 60% of all proteins show multiple locations. Most common is 2-3, but there are cases (although rarer) where one can see 3-4. I would be *extremely* hesistant to label more than 6 (which should be extremely uncommon).
#84
Humans are still so much better than computers (unfortunately...). But we're working on it ^^
#86
We have looked at all images (well, as I think images are uploaded continously, this is not perfectly true, but we will have looked at >99% of the images) and labeled them according to what we think we see. We are interested in what you think though, and whether you can spot patterns that we have missed out on.
Reg. farmers and button mashers, it will be easy to filter out those (according to our image analysis/programmer expert HPA_Dichroic), we do have a subset of very well classified images that we can look at to see who are just clicking randomly.
#87
From that image I agree it looks negative. Is that one of the known examples, since it's says it should be periphery (cell junctions?)? If so, I'd like to check up on it, it could be weeeak CJ, but I can't tell from this image. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
6412
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Posted - 2016.03.11 06:56:52 -
[90] - Quote
I have slightly more than 70% accuracy. I think I can be a scientist.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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