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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
SamuraiJack
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Sinlare
You're just bitter that you lost Samurai, get over yourself. You're a nobody and you screaming murder won't change that.
Answer 1) i have no problem loosing... except to a bunch of lying cheaters.
Answer 2) Go play hide and go frack yourself. kthx bye ;-)
Two Brick Diplomat SJ. CLS Director =-
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Steven McWayne
Gallente Decadence. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[302]
the bpos are only significant important.. the intel he may given out to bob about changes to eve, new skills..what to skill and what to sell etc pp are more hurting the community.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[303]
Devs shouldn't be fired over incidents like this They should lose their privilege of having any game account for a considerable amount of time. It lets them continue to do their job (working for CCP), which they've performed well, while keeping them from having a responsibility that they've abused (playing EVE). GMs are in a different situation, as they can't do their job without an ingame presence.
Any accounts banned for accusations later proven true, no matter the methods employed, should be unbanned with clear names At this level of seriousness, accounts should be banned not on principle or technicality, but on the merit of their actions. In this case, the former player(s)'s actions were to the benefit of the Dev Team, the EVE community, and EVE as a whole. Any players who put forth later-vindicated allegations with solid evidence are not wronging EVE, and EVE should not wrong them.
My $0.02 (US)
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AltTastic
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[304]
I guess the part that really bugs me about this whole situation is, that the guy who uncovered this to begin with had evidence, and, the devs have confirmed that one piece of the mountain of evidence was true. Why would this guy who found this information out add a bunch of other "non-true" evidence into the mix? Isn't dev's supplying T2 BPO's to BoB a big enough 'scandal' by itself if you put yourself back in time before this all started?
Sure, right now its 1 small piece of a huge pile of problems BoB was looking at potentially. But 2 weeks ago had someone said "hey, devs are giving spawned T2 BPO's to BoB", that would have been enough for me to consider it a HUGE deal. So my point is, I don't believe that the BPO's are the only piece of evidence to be true, and here's why: The investigation was too fast.
The community was very vocal in their desire for an investigation and if necessary, justice. As such, I suspect CCP felt very under-the-gun, especially with this news leaking to outside sources such as MMO news sites, and even Slashdot. That being said, I find it very unlikely that an investigation was able to be done that traced the activity to ALL developers within BoB and any other alliance for that matter, back to when the alts of those devs joined said alliances. Some of these devs have had alts in these alliances for multiple years, correct? That's a lot of potential trades, transfers, sales, etc to go over. I find it unlikely that all of this was able to be investigated in such a short period of time, though I am not a DBA, so perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm really not the conspiracy theory type, I'm not biased, I don't hate BoB, AFAIK BoB has never fired a single shot on anyone in my corp ever, and I am not involved with an organization that has anything to do with 0.0 politics or 0.0 alliances. However I just find it strange that this guy was able to dig up some dirt and get some logs, and low and behold some of the allegations were true. So the story then is that the guy fabricated all the rest of the logs? Sounds fishy to me.
I will say that no, I'm not going to be one of these people throwing a fit and threaten to quit playing, that has no value. I will state however, that as someone who is in an Alliance that is still growing in Empire space preparing for 0.0, this kind of thing has made me seriously re-think getting into that whole ball of wax in the future. This whole incident has seriously made me lose all desire to push on to 0.0, it sounds.. too drama-filled for me.
/me adjusts Tin Foil [HAT]
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Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[305]
The saddest thing in all of this is that, regardless of the extent to which any cheating occured, BoB's reputation is likely ruined.
And really, it is only the actions of a very few who will have caused this -- the average BoB member is everything BoB claims, dedicated and good at what they do. BoB's accomplishments (and this is coming from a BoB-hater) can not be entirely due to any cheating or free BPO's or anything. BoB is damn good at what they do.
Unfortunately, there has been dev "cheating" (even if "minor" or "innocent"), the "proceeds" of said cheating went to BoB, and thus BoB is guilty in the eyes of the public.
CCP, we look forward to seeing clearly defined rules on how Devs interact with the game world, and how this will be avoided in the future.
I also sincerely hope something can be done to both correct any damage to game balance that occurred due to these events, and that something can be done to remove the blemish from what the Band of Brothers have accomplished in this game.
----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Di Jiensai
CCP did investigate, and you have your witch to burn. You want to burn her now? Or maybe accept an apology for a realy not very serious act done long time ago?
This is the underlying point of this whole business. They *gave* us our witch to burn so we wouldn't burn everyone else with him. They admitted something serious enough to make people angry but something that clearly is not the limit of what happened.
They tried to placate us by offering a sacrifice. Are you really molified by such an overt attempt to quiet the mob?
Quote:
And about the Guy who started it off, I am realy glad he got Banned. He posted reallife Information about players he suspected (not proved) to be CCP people in player corps. That allone should get him banned.
So you really think they banned that guy for doing the same thing that did not get Molle banned? They are either being highly disingenuous or simply lying. I would go with the latter.
Quote:
So, t20, lessen learned i guess.
The lesson he learned is tha**** ok to cheat because if you are caught the worst that will happen is that part of what you did will be undone and you will be required to admit you did it.
The consequences to him are completely nil. If antyhing this should encourage more cheating.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Dr Felonius
Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[307]
I'm also of the opinion that t20 has to go, for what it's worth. Such an action is necessary to assure the players that CCP takes these issues seriously and that no such corruption will happen again. If he just gets a slap on the wrist, the next dev who feels like spawning some BPOs may decide that it's worth the risk.
I'm fine with devs playing on the prod server, but I don't see why they have to play this way. What aspect of the game could they not fully experience if they used temporary characters with arbitrary resources to participate? If a dev wants to see how fleet battles are going on Tranquility, he or she could create a new char with a standard skill set, spawn a BS with a standard fit, and fly with some alliance, fully and openly. The CCP IA guys could promise to do an immediate audit of the battle. CCP could also be open about which alliances had devs fly with them when, and make sure that the distribution is reasonably fair.
Experiencing the game does not, in my opinion, require secret dev accounts nor participation at the highest political levels. Even if that level of participation does help the devs, they ought to be willing to forego it in order to put this scandal behind them. Only a new culture of openness and accountability can put this issue to rest forever.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:09:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Justicas Herror How easy would it be for CCP to cover up this incident to the players? Really, that's how.
I think that the apology and subsequent blog shows CCP's maturity as game devs - I'm almost certain that all the devs for WoW for example, when they go on their characters will just constantly cheat. Now, actions like that in WoW have far less long-reaching implications (ie alot smaller acheivements) but the principal is the same.
Thats not Maturity, its getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and apologizing for eating all the cookies after they are gone. Big difference.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Vas Arach'ta
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:09:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
When aren't whistleblowers punished? Nobody likes a rat. Especially loud, belligerent ones. Call it civic responsibility or whatever you want, but whistleblowers will always be heroes that no one wants to talk to, let alone trust. With anything. Ever.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
It was dealt with--incorrectly, mind you--as soon as the infraction was discovered. The only difference between then and now is that its public revelation was accompanied with painful letters of apology from CCP employees, and revealing the measures they took months ago to rectify it.
This has been restated several times now.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
Yes, let's give him a monument. One thing with whistleblowers is that it's difficult to distinguish between genuine passion of cause with an urgent desire to become famous.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How much similar activity is going on that we don't know about? This one case gets revealed, and CCP, after being dragged hesitantly through the mud, reaches out with a horrible reaction.
If the personal words of CCP's CEO aren't enough to convince you that the company is and has done everything in its power to prevent this from happening again, then go away. You're not helping anyone here by spreading wanton anxieties of corporate deceit and abuse.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How do we know that this isn't continuing to happen elsewhere in the universe? What faith are now supposed to have in CCP's watchguarding abilities?
See above.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How are we supposed to trust the fact that CCP isn't sweeping other, lesser-known "crimes" under the rug as well?
You don't. All you have Hilmar Petursson's word, which is more than enough for me.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to do a mission for my research agent.
/V
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[310]
Going to have to reiterate the points about devs NOT having positions of responsibility in alliances, especially positions relating to their dev speciality.
Furthermore, it pains me to see people saying that this was a 'minor' breach of the CCP so should not be punished too much. Any breah of the game community's trust is too much in my opinion. As somebody who has defended BoB against accusations of hacking and GM favoritism I feel rather unimpressed. Not thinking about leaving the game, but not happy with CCP, and I speak for my whole corp and probably alliance here.
sgb
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Arthur Miller
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[311]
Now, what is going to be done about the multiple cases of account sharing in RKK that these devs had knowledge of? |
01101100011101
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Fire T20.
How will firing one guy help when there's still a bunch of others left untouched, or any of the cosnequences over time addressed
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insolace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[313]
Judging from the makeup of the responses in this thread I think it would have been in CCPs best interests to be heavy handed in their dealing of this issue, not the other way around.
The community is outraged and if CCP wants to regain our confidence in the game, they need to show us that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. Forgiving T20 in any professional capacity (letting him keep his job) is showing a degree of tolerance for his behavior, and is unnaceptable.
CCP also needs to show that they're not going to punish those with evidence of wrong-doing when they share that evidence. Keeping "K" banned is a statement of warning against future whistle-blowers, and will only serve to undermine the community's confidence in this behavior being prevented in the future.
Removing the BPOs only serves to stop further damage being inflicted, it does nothing to actually repair the damage that has been done. Those who were in possession of the BPOs should be fined the average selling price of those items multiplied by the rate at which they could have been produced and sold in the time they were possessed. If the offenders wish to blame anyone, they may turn to T20.
CCP needs to do the following:
1) fire T20 to show they have a ZERO tolerance policy
2) unban "k" and all of his accounts
3) Fine BOB for the profits made from their BPOs, again demonstrating a ZERO tolerance policy
The community cannot take CCP seriously in this matter until these three actions are taken.
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Haitchi Allamut
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[314]
Originally by: 01101100011101
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Fire T20.
How will firing one guy help when there's still a bunch of others left untouched, or any of the cosnequences over time addressed
Its a start. _________________________________ Recruitment |
Ciphero
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[315]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it confirmed anywhere that BoB were aware that the BPOs were obtained illegally? If they weren't and had no reason to be, they have done nothing wrong.
T20, I'm glad you apologised. However, it's pretty clear that you did so because you were caught, not necessarily because you regretted it or wouldn't do it again. I think you should consider yourself let off very, very lightly thus far.
Put simply, this thing totally trashes BoB's credibility ("best PVP alliance in the game? Well, you did have a dev helping you after all.") and seriously damages CCP's. I for one will always look at things with a very suspicious eye that I hoped never to have. |
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[316]
Originally by: MuthaTrucka
Thats not Maturity, its getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and apologizing for eating all the cookies after they are gone. Big difference.
QFT. They were busted, and had to admit it, or it would of been worse in the long run.
There is more of this going on right this very second though, and if you think it is not, you're either naive as hell or a moron.
The amount of corruption around right now is astounding. CCP has plenty to hide (more than just dev misconduct) and are doing their best to cover it all up or silence those who blow the whistle.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Vanick
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Vanick on 09/02/2007 22:10:02 Edited by: Vanick on 09/02/2007 22:09:40 Sadly this is still not enough. It's good that in the case of T20 he was found and (hopefully) fired, but this indicates bad things all-around for the rest of the game. The struggle with which people had to get CCP to do anything about 6 BPOs was ridiculous. The blatant coverup, the banning of the whistleblower, and the other sketchy things which still stick out like sore thumbs...
Try some transparency for a change.
And for people saying he shouldn't be fired: we pay for this service. If an employee intentionally devaules and corrupts the service his company provides he can, and should be fired.
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Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[318]
11 pages in an hour and a half, that must be some kind of record
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Tanyi Thomas
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Manus Ghostface DBP buying a character or getting it gratis, Sirmolle posting personal info...this we won't see information, nor should we according to how client account issues are handled. If guilty we should see them quietly disappear, or someone from Bob announcing it, but CCP should maintain their policy on account issues being between them and the account owner.
But some issues that still need addressing in a bullet point yeah or ney manner by ccp.
1. T20's admission of what bpos he returned confirm he was the character who managed the RKK capital fleet. If so, he had to be aware of the cynonet alt sharing scheme, will action be taken on this and account sharing viololations in general. If not, then EULA changes need to be made to clarify or modify policy.
2. Can we be confident of impartiality in tournaments? Recent offsite evidence points pretty well to recent BOB membership of the dev who is in charge of these events. The idea of a rules council for made me happier, but final decisions would be in the hands of someone with bias.
3. Movement of devs and gms in warzones in suspicious manners need to be tracked. It does seem very odd to have a moon to moon jumping gm ship right before a major offensive.
4. The "Internal Affairs" group needs a email or reporting mechanism independent of the moderators, and monitored by more than one person with logs kept of deleted items. One cat sitting on the barrel of cream will not improve this process.
5. Serious thought on changing or restarting the t2 process needs to be done, if there is evidence that someone was able to do this and get away with it, then faith in the whole system is shattered. How do we know that other cases don't exist.
Ball is in your court, make us believers, but don't try and stagedive and find out the crowd has moved away.
WOW, my trust in CCP when it come to BOB is really broken.
Solo
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Manus Ghostface 1. T20's admission of what bpos he returned confirm he was the character who managed the RKK capital fleet. If so, he had to be aware of the cynonet alt sharing scheme, will action be taken on this and account sharing viololations in general. If not, then EULA changes need to be made to clarify or modify policy.
Frankly, I doubt there's a major 0.0 corp/alliance in Eve that doesn't share cyno accounts. That's the big fault with the whole cyno system, that it gives a huge advantage to multi-account characters who can afford to have alts stationed in intermediate systems - there needs to be a better way of doing this.
What worries me more is account sharing of major assets like Titans. I know ASCN petitioned Shrike and I know the petition was denied. Maybe justifiably but how are now supposed to trust this? Meanwhile one of our members has just had a longtime character instabanned (with all his assets including carrier) because CCP discovered the account was transferred between players well over a year ago. No cheating, no cash, simply a no-longer-wanted account being passed to a corpmate for which CCP has still been paid all this time. Technically against the rules, but what harm was it doing to justify the sort of zero-tolerance policy which CCP obviously don't apply to its own?
*shakes head* Oh why couldn't you have been honest with us from the start? The damage this has done to trust is incalculable. |
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Zachri
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[321]
Please remain on-topic - Serathu ([email protected])
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Chronus26
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:13:00 -
[322]
The community of this game neads to learn to THINK before posting. I can't believe what i'm reading here, some of this is completly unbelievable.
CCP have taken the action they deemed neccisary. Only they have ALL the information here and therfore only they have the ability to decide what actions should or should not be taken.
Please, put some thought into what you post instead of just jumping on the bandwagon. -----
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[323]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
Firetail
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[324]
The corporation involved should be broken up, its assets deleted, its sovereignties (should it have any) be nullified.
This is a very, very serious breach of trust between an employee, CCP, a corporation and the community. Drastic measures need to be taken.
It is my opinion that deleting the offending corporation and its assets and holdings is the least harmful measure, yet sends the clearest message.
As for T20's job, that's not my place to decide. This person should not ever be allowed to have privileges that might allow the same actions to occur. It is good that CCP is putting into place measures to stop further actions such as this.
As to the original people who uncovered this scandal, they should not be punished by CCP for alleged real-world law breaking. If CCP believes they have broken laws, they should approach the appropriate law enforcement authorities with any information they have. CCP cannot take the law into its own hands, especially in this situation where their own malfeasance was uncovered by those they seek to punish.
I sincerely hope you don't have publicly-traded stock.
These are my constructive suggestions, not made in anger, but which hopefully will restore faith to the community of EvE.
---
"When the Caldari Navy saw the drones, they laughed. It wasn't until the command ship's hull buckled and the coms that the screams started, and by then, no one could hear them." |
gordon cain
Minmatar x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[325]
Anyone have an external link or anything to the original thread from Kugutsumen or can anyone fill me in plz.
On topic: Sad day, not enough concequence. I have been a victim of this coverup thing myself back with the drone bug. I learned it doesnt matter really in the end cause they just stop it and remove it if needed.
There should be no differences between if you come from a well known alliance or a noob corp.
All equal!
Gordon
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DaHeaVYFo
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[326]
Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:15:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
This is a game for **** sake! Its not the end of the world! And as I said, it did not affect the player mass as a whole! I say let this pass!
A "game" to us, perhaps (definately a hobby). A "game" to CCP it is not. It is a business. A BIG business. Figuring 130,000 subscriptions paying $14.95 a month equals $1,943,500 a month in income.
The sheer financial loss from this supposedly 'isolated' incident should be enough of a reason to get t20 fired. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Boxcar McGee
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Boxcar McGee on 09/02/2007 22:13:14
Quote: *Our Internal Affairs department...ha[s] concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others.
Quote: Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.
Now I'm no Columbo, but if all the logs aren't available then how can your IA department conclude that no other developers abused their positions?
Of course, this is the same IA department "which is also tasked with standard periodic audits of all developer and volunteer accounts" and somehow missed a developer spawning rare BPOs and passing them around to his closest e-pals like party favors.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[329]
Originally by: DaHeaVYFo Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
Lose. Loose = Not Tight.
Fire T20. Disband RKK. Right Your Wrongs.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[330]
Originally by: incist
Originally by: SamuraiJack Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying.
I know someone in CLS who told me they were a dev via in-game message on another game I play....
Dont go around acting like your own poo dont stink. CLS has had how many T2 BPO's over your history? What are the odds some of them were spawned too? Who knows really?
No way! There could not be dev's in CLS, ascn maybe woulda lasted longer if thats the case! right? |
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