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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:00:00 -
[2341]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Baun.. the legal term for action would be "silent fraud" and actionable, with mis mal and non feasance for a basis I would beleive. Followed by breach of trust, and contract.
"Silent fraud" only occurs when there is a legal duty to disclose and answers are implied through silence.
In this case, presumably those people who gain access to others' corporations were asked the sort of questions that create a duty to disclose (i.e. please tell me these things before we will give you forum and ts access) and they responded by lying about them.
That is not "silent fraud" it is just simple fraud. If there is a reason that it would not be actionable it would be in cases where there is no demonstrable injury flowing from the fraud.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:03:00 -
[2342]
Let's be clear about something:
The T2 market is NOT a real market, because supply is entirely and artificially controlled by CCP. Access to the T2 BPO's is ramdom (or, as is evidenced here, not-so-random), and narrow. This creates an artificial market. Supply is fixed, or even deliberately restricted, as demand increases. This creates artificial price pressures.
There are REAL markets in Eve though... look at the T1 ship market. Prices fluxuate across regions and suppliers typically attempt to meet demand. If Mega-T's are sellin' somewhere for 120 mill, you can BET that Mega-T producers will try to ride that wave of profit until supply meets market demand, and prices fall.
IMO, the T2 lottery has been shown to be flawed. We need a NEW way of distributing T2 BPOs that isn't so rigid. Perhaps one based chance for each researcher. That is, each day, a researcher has a small chance of getting a BPO offer based on the number of RP's he has with the agent. After all, it makes sense that if 10,000 researchers are researching T2 BPO's, that there should be more BPO's spawned than if only 1,000 are doing it.
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Rikeka
Amarr Eye of God X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:04:00 -
[2343]
Sorry, but I think t20 should be fired/terminated (whatever term you prefer)
1) Because shows CCP still cares, even after all this mess. 2) Because a lot has happened after the initla accusations.
Sucks, I hate firings (though I have to always do a few of those from time to time) but I guess this is what most, of the ones worried about what`s going on, want.
Good luck CCP. Will take some time to recover everyone`s trust, but EvE is worth it.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:04:00 -
[2344]
Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:05:00 -
[2345]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
Trask Kilraen, a real market does not have unlimited supply either. So your argument is circular.
//Maya |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:07:00 -
[2346]
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Baun Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
Pretexting is a crime in California. I have no idea whether hacking is against the law where K lives, nor whether pretexting is against the law where BoB's forums/TS spies live. But both can be considered "criminal activity."
Personal jurisdiction isn't the simplest topic, no matter what country you are talkiing about, but it may be entirely irrelevant whether it is illegal where the person who did it lives. More likely, it matters more where the relevant information is "located" and the extent to which there any purposeful availment of that jurisdiction. The issue is quite a bit more complicated since what is being dealt with is not tangible and as such the virtual location of the information may also be less relevant then the wronged party's home jurisdiction but, as I said, this is unclear.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Rikeka
Amarr Eye of God X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:07:00 -
[2347]
Originally by: Banco97 All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
One of the DEVs did something naughty, it's being dealt with, as far as I care that's the end of the discussion and CCP don't have to tell us anything at all, it's THEIR game, they dont' have to be fair, they don't have to tell you anything at all. Just drop it and be happy that it's being looked at
You play the game for free? If that`s the case, YOU may have no reason to complain. Others DO have every right to complain.
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:09:00 -
[2348]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
I've removed it but that line was crossed with t20 abused the trust of CCP and the playerbase of Eve. It's no more then he deserves. ------------------------------------------
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2349]
Originally by: XirtamVotf
As for former Imperium pilots fighting against BOB, and actually doing what we did to BOB at the time, with no other allaince helping us. Then BOB doing what it did to defend their position and actually getting away with it after we were successful really irks me and the players that were affillated with that attack.
Sorry Xirt, but that just isn't going to wash - you picked the wrong guy to try and convince.
You seem to forget that I was there paving the way for Imperium before it was even founded, and I was on the other side when it got kicked out of 0.0
I have a rather unique persepective on the whole thing, so don't try to spin it for me.
(Oh, and I'm sure KIA will thank you for forgetting their efforts, no matter how short lived, at fighting for you.)
I saw action on both sides, and neither was any more "dirty" than the other.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2350]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:07:02
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
There is no underlying legal duty to tell anyone who wants to know your personal information, or indeed any information at all.
When they ask for this information in order to justify giving you access to some of their property, a legal duty to respond truthfully (or decline to answer the questions) is created. Indeed, a legal duty not to imply an acceptable answer that might induce their reliance is also created. When you lie to someone so that they will give you access to something they would not have given you had you not lied you have committed fraud. When you make use of that access in a way they explicitly do not want you to you have probably committed a crime.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2351]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
agreed, one sick puppy, doesnt deserve to be part of the community.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2352]
Originally by: Lori Carlyle
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
I've removed it but that line was crossed with t20 abused the trust of CCP and the playerbase of Eve. It's no more then he deserves.
I understand you are upset and I share it to a great extent, but there is a limit.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
BigDave
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:13:00 -
[2353]
I'd like to understand why this discussion is buried in a thread on a portal linked in the 3rd of 9 stickied threads on the general discussion forum, with little to draw attention except the post count. Any organization truly concerned about the perception of misconduct would boldly emblazon their front door with the headline article, "SOMEONE CHEATED AND WE'RE SORRY!" Instead, every thread on the general forum to mention it is deleted, and customers who hear third-hand by viral rumor are left to do their own detective work to find the story. That leaves the perception of an ongoing coverup -- in this case, reputation damage control, rather than boldy proclaiming mea culpa and explaining why anyone should trust the organization again.
CCP's Commitment, if you ask me, can be found in the single line Hellmar chose to highlight in bold print:
Quote: The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
So there we have it. No change to business as usual. Short of a "sea change" in the CCP response to these very serious allegations, Eve will lose the single most valuable component in setting it apart from other MMOs: its sophisticated playerbase. Devs, have fun playing in the litterbox with yourselves and your pets. I'm giving you a week to find a real commitment to ethical conduct, then I'm moving on. T20, you can have my stuff (including T2 ammo BPOs - I know you lub them!).
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:14:00 -
[2354]
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:07:02
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
There is no underlying legal duty to tell anyone who wants to know your personal information, or indeed any information at all.
When they ask for this information in order to justify giving you access to some of their property, a legal duty to respond truthfully (or decline to answer the questions) is created. Indeed, a legal duty not to imply an acceptable answer that might induce their reliance is also created. When you lie to someone so that they will give you access to something they would not have given you had you not lied you have committed fraud. When you make use of that access in a way they explicitly do not want you to you have probably committed a crime.
Baun, that is bluntly completely untrue. Otherwise using an alias online would be a crime. With no contract or financial deal between the parties, there is NO duty of truth*. This is why businesses use contracts and NDA's, ffs.
(*It is a crime in some countries to lie about your age online, but that is all)
//Maya |
Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2355]
Originally by: Avon
I saw action on both sides, and neither was any more "dirty" than the other.
Please throw a "as far as I know" on there. Fact is, most of BoB didn't know about this. And if other shady dealings are going on, most of BoB isn't aware of that either. But someone in BoB did or does know about it.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2356]
Originally by: BigDave I'd like to understand why this discussion is buried in a thread on a portal linked in the 3rd of 9 stickied threads on the general discussion forum, with little to draw attention except the post count.
Well, quite simply, this is where this thread belongs. Duplicate threads are deleted as per the forum rules.
People claiming this is somehow hidden really have no understanding of the forum structure.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Trilliam Blackthorn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2357]
I wonder why the easiest fix for all of this has been ruled out - simply forbid CCP employees from playing the game on TQ. There is already a test server - they can paly on that if they need to test things.
Why anyone would put the ability for employees to continue having their playtime above a good business decision (i.e. restore customer confidence in one fell swoop) is beyond me.
As long as Devs are allowed to play alongside paying customers, there will always be the possibility, however remote, that the playing field is not level. In business, perception is everything. In this case, even the perception of abuse being possible hurts the not only the game itself, but future growth prospects as well.
Aside from all the emotions portrayed in this thread, I would simply like CCP to make the smart business decision here. BAN DEVELOPERS PERMANENTLY from the game.
Think about it...all CCP has to tell the palyerbase/public is this:
"This will NEVER happen again, because our employees are banned from playing the game."
Such an easy fix....why don't they do it?
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:16:00 -
[2358]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
agreed, one sick puppy, doesnt deserve to be part of the community.
I speak my mind..
I don't deserve to be here.. Sorry didn't know this game was for "gifted" people. I pay to be here just like everyone else. However i'll try to restrict my personal views onto this forum. Applogies for any offence caused. ------------------------------------------
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2359]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Elve, don't be mis-informed if you think kugu's actions are what prompted a response. T20 has been punished since summer it would seem.
See, that's the interesting thing, and it's what im trying to point out.
Rationally, i can say that you are right. I know it. If i give it some thought, the only logical and rational conclusion is that they've dealt with it, and that Kugu's actions have nothing to do with it.
The impression im getting though, is the opposite. The impression i had when i first read this, before i started thinking about it, was the opposite. I got the feeling that CCP is only trying to damage control, or more specificly: That CCP did not act untill the publicity forced them. Case in point:
Originally by: Photon Lightwielder It's only a part of the damage control. In July they thought they could keep it all hidden. Now that they're exposed they have to show that they "take responsibility" or putting it in better words, try to cover up as much as posible by throwing the community some "treats"
And that's what im getting to. It's no longer about facts, it's about the impression CCP give us. The feeling we get when we read their posts, Blogs and whatnot. And, atleast in my case, it's not the right impression. So even though i know, rationally, that the impression is wrong, i still had it. And i think alot of people fail to realise the former, and only go by their impression. Atleast, thats the impression i'm getting from reading this now 84-page thread.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2360]
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2361]
Avon I said Imperium.. KIA were in that,as RONA, so just relax, and you werent anywhere in that fight and you have NO clue, and I dont spin , we had fraps, and disclosed those.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2362]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 11/02/2007 18:19:55 Double.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:24:00 -
[2363]
Originally by: Goran
...
The question you have to ask yourselves is: The moment before I heard about this, did I enjoy Eve?
The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
Yes, I did. However, the game HAS changed, whether you care to admit it or not. For that matter, so has CCP. And finally, so have we.
The assumption was that the game was a level playing field. It's not.
To the best of our knowledge, CCP wasn't a bunch of cheaters that covered up their wrongdoings.
And now we know better.
Originally by: Goran It really is time to put your trust in Eve, and CCP. If you can't do that because of one rotten apple, then leave. Don't kill it for those who wish to enjoy this game.
Trust is earned and when betrayed, doesn't respawn like chaining belt rats, sorry. Oh, and ONE rotten apple?? How many did you list in your original post? 4S, GM scorpion, this? Are there more?
Originally by: Goran The situation is not ideal, and I for one am not happy about the whole thing, but like the 4S incident, and the GM scorp, it will fade with time, and Eve will (hopefully) remain.
I agree, if it is swept under the rug and we all just accept the fact that there's cheating and unfair advantages and just get back grinding for no reason... at least until the next time. ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:28:00 -
[2364]
Hey Maya thanks for putting words in everyones mouth Im sure that would be allowed in a court of law, BTW are you going to enlighten us ?
Well were waiting
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:29:00 -
[2365]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
This is a clever attempt to get around the thrust of every recruitment/security check in EVE.
When you signup with *any corporation in any alliance* they will ask you what alt characters you play and what corporations they are in. If you respond by lieing to this and this response gains you access then you are committing fraud.
You also forgot when I mentioned that many corporations ask for your real name. I suppose that "any real name" is as good as any other? Or is lying about who you are to gain use to the property of others perfectly acceptable in your mind?
Quote:
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Given that you are one person operating multiple characters, if you are asked who those characters are and you lie about it in order to facilitate use of the property of another you are committing a crime (in some places) and/or are exposing yourself to civil liability.
It is entirely irrelevant whether you can say that there is one "main" character. All that matters is that you lie to a direct question.
Quote:
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
Pretexting does not apply where there are no property interests involved. You can lie to hell and back in game and no one will have suffered any injury because no one owns anything in EVE. The moment you use someone elses' website, someone elses' teamspeak server, someone elses' information that they *own* and do so only by virtue of having lied to them then you have are no longer in any "fictional world" you have entered the real one.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2366]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Avon I said Imperium.. KIA were in that,as RONA, so just relax, and you werent anywhere in that fight and you have NO clue, and I dont spin , we had fraps, and disclosed those.
Xirt, I appreciate your attempts to try and derail the thread. I'm sure BoB and CCP are most grateful.
However, I think that maybe the thread is crowded enough with quite legitimate discussion without trying to shoehorn your ego in to it too.
How about you get your own thread, and we can pop in if we get the time?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Valcari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2367]
Sorry i am a new player to eve, in abotu 2 months now and i have just learned that bob bob was made up of the people that made the game, personally i lost alot of respect for this game beecause of this resent allogation, i thought is if you hide this much from us what else are you hiding, or "not telling us", this is a very unfair advantage in this game you guys have on nowing the ins and outs of the game, but thats not my worry my worry is that you take it upon your selves to abuse your power even more, and CHEAT, AND I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK you did it was cheating, and nothing less of it. you might be thinking why i am grouping everyone together and calling them YOU is bacuse its your responsibility to give a fair chance to everyplayer, next thing i know you could be gaining unfair skills and typing in codes to get certain items, just liek everyother half ass game. dont let your game become something like that, and dont lose respect from everyone.
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2368]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 17:28:41 vipeer,
You can keep posting but Avon can't... You complained when BoB didn't post, and when they do... You haven't bothered to read Avon's posts... You are accepting the word of a criminal hacker as gospel...
You're a Hackfleet shill.
Quote:
Sure Avon can post. Everyone who pays suscription is allowed to post but saying he's posting his views while he's actually trying to refute other people and belittle the issues at hand that is not voicing opinions anymoe but trying actively to convince people the sun is shining when in fact it's snowing.
I simply pointed out the fact BOD are usually all over any thred posted in CAOD but they are silent in this one. Odd don't you think
I read them but you haven't read my posts have you ;)
The hacker is correct as Hillmar the CEO of CCP pointed out in his blog and T20 admitted to. I and vast majority of EVE have little reason to believe that only one part of BOD forums is true and everything else is faked.
"Hackfleet shill" what's that? English is not my primary language sry Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:34:00 -
[2369]
Oh noes arent we full of ourselves Avon , but you are wrong and wont let go, so just stop trying to sugarcoat your inadequate statements
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Arnhelm Maas
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:36:00 -
[2370]
Edited by: Arnhelm Maas on 11/02/2007 18:33:11
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