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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:23:00 -
[1]
Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Suvetar
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:25:00 -
[2]
Please keep your comments on topic and relevant, thanks everyone!
forum rules | [email protected] | Our new Website! |
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:26:00 -
[3]
best hopes CCP
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Gungankllr
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:27:00 -
[4]
Reserved for when I finish reading.
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Jonas O'Fall
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:30:00 -
[5]
Since the BPOs were illegitimate, what is the fate of the profits that were gained from their use?
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Luigi Thirty
Caldari FIRMA
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:30:00 -
[6]
I wonder if this'll affect BoB's war plans ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Intigo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:32:00 -
[7]
*dons tinfoil hat*
Crazy. :O -- Piewat! Low SP piracy Now with more stories and small clips! |
Shigsy
Caldari Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:33:00 -
[8]
They weren't actually even very good BPO's
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Kurj Valdoria
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:33:00 -
[9]
Wow. In the grand scheme of things that ammounts to seriously so little. Anyone demanding more or threatening to quit over this still feel free to contract your stuff to me.
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Gungankllr
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:35:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Gungankllr on 09/02/2007 20:33:08 I'm glad and all, but there's a hell of a lot more than this to look into.
I really don't like BoB, but you need to to an exhaustive investigation into this entire incident to either prove them guilty of everything that has been leveled at them or clear them of any wrongdoing.
It's the right thing to do at this juncture.
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Rabb Darktide
Independent Fleet O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:36:00 -
[11]
It's amazing how the whole blueprint issue was just "skipped over" in kieron's first post. Frankly, it seems that, had the coummunity not expressed its outrage of a most obvious white washing, that the BPO part would have never seen the light of day.
I ask CCP this now - is t20 still employed? If yes, why?
In addition to removing the BPOs, any player who knew they were tainted should be disciplined, and ALL items built with them should be removed from the game.
This 11th hour confession only deepens the mistrust and suspicion I hold towards CCP right now. This should have been announced as soon as it was discovered along with a notice that t20 was no longer employeed.
----- INDF Recruitment |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:36:00 -
[12]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 09/02/2007 20:34:13 :whoah:
any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :( |
matty01
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:36:00 -
[13]
jeeeeeeez __________________________
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kurj Valdoria Wow. In the grand scheme of things that ammounts to seriously so little. Anyone demanding more or threatening to quit over this still feel free to contract your stuff to me.
It's the principle more than anything else.
Originally by: Gungankllr I'm glad and all, but there's a hell of a lot more than this to look into.
There definitely is. I doubt it will be looked into though.
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Kari Kayira
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:37:00 -
[15]
That doesn't seem like much. Still, I suppose the betrayal of the player base should sting a little.
I'm not sure if it's frightening or heartening that the developers have such a powerful interest in their game that they need to police their own. I've not heard of similar such groups ever being created for other games. Then again, rarely are devs as open as they are here.
All in all, what damage is done is done, so all I can say is, dun let it happen again ^^.
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:37:00 -
[16]
Just to be clear, I'm not calling for T20's head; however in Hellmar's blog it is stated that "the non-negotiable penalty is employee termination" or something similar for this.
Is this stating simply that this is the penalty/policy that will be applied now, going forward? ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO / Acting Logistics CO Hadean Drive Yards |
31i73
BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:38:00 -
[17]
Omg, so it WAS true! Will the guy that discovered this remain banned still?
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Zhull
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zhull on 09/02/2007 20:37:12 Can a Dev comment on how the investigation was conducted?
Has the person in charge of the investigation experencie in forensic audit?
You mention that logs were reviewed. What about e-mails? Interviews? Other files in personal computers?
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:39:00 -
[19]
Oh, that's just great.
So first there's an attempt to sweep it under the rug, and a lot of denials. Then you ban K.'s accounts, for no real reason.
And now you're telling everyone that yes, there's truth behind it?
Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back. yarr. |
Apomixis
STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:39:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Apomixis on 09/02/2007 20:36:04 What of the other allegations leveled in regard to exploiting and account misuse?
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SonOTassadar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: SonOTassadar on 09/02/2007 20:37:11 Can t20 keep his job? Please? ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standar Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless |
Bandobras
Caldari Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[22]
So does this mean t20 will be terminated?
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Adam C on 09/02/2007 20:38:51 though you havent really enlightened* us on you losing your playing charactor we know from previous blogs that you most likely did lose the one in rkk.
how will the developers whom lost their playing charactors* play the game now? under closer scrutiny admittingly, anything else?
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Murandi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[24]
Ok, that is one topic on the table. Good.
Now let's move to the next outstanding 20, because these aren't even the crux issues.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[25]
even if what t20 did was wrong i hope he keeps his job ___________________________________
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Enjolras
Gallente Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[26]
Its unfortunate that this justice is only triggered by 3rd party investigation. |
Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[27]
Happy to hear the BPO's are back.
--P
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
Did you miss the Sabre BPO? --- Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances. ---
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani Oh, that's just great.
So first there's an attempt to sweep it under the rug, and a lot of denials. Then you ban K.'s accounts, for no real reason.
And now you're telling everyone that yes, there's truth behind it?
Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back.
Even if there wasn't any truth behind it, I don't get why CCP would ban somebody for out-of-game actions. If anything, doing that will be bad for CCP in the long run.
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:42:00 -
[30]
Happy to hear you're taking things seriously.
--P
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:42:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Anglo on 09/02/2007 20:42:24 how much did bob get out of this ?? how many people were killed due to a gm being in bob ? is there other isues we should need to know ?
sabre was bound to bring in some isk. will those isk be taken from bob ? as in the isk they made from all the bpo ?`i dont think taking the bpos is enough.
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Arowe Telak
Warped Mining Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
All except the Sabre bpo, which is one of the best.
Anyways, at the very least I hope all the accusations in COAD dies down. It was getting a bit stupid tbh.
Sigs are overrated. |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Niaski Zalani Oh, that's just great.
So first there's an attempt to sweep it under the rug, and a lot of denials. Then you ban K.'s accounts, for no real reason.
And now you're telling everyone that yes, there's truth behind it?
Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back.
Even if there wasn't any truth behind it, I don't get why CCP would ban somebody for out-of-game actions. If anything, doing that will be bad for CCP in the long run.
Well, I can see why they might've banned him, it's natural to try and protect one's interests, but a) he didn't do anything that other players in EVE haven't done before (and they're still around) and b) he was right whilst BoB -and- CCP claimed he wasn't.
He deserves to be unbanned. That might just restore my faith in CCP, because right now the faith-o-meter is hitting rock bottom and breaking out the jackhammer to dig deeper. yarr. |
sloany
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:44:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Enjolras Its unfortunate that this justice is only triggered by 3rd party investigation.
Makes you wonder how many more incidents like this are left uncovered.
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Zhull
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:44:00 -
[35]
Are all items gained by this unfair advantage going to be removed?
The DEV blog mentions the BPOs. What about the items produced by the BPO that are in the hands of players and any money made from insurance or sale of such items?
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ceaon
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:45:00 -
[36]
t20 still on CCP nooooot good
Quote: IÆm truly sorry
i don't believe that u know the rule u break the rule now OUT @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:45:00 -
[37]
Oh dear, I really hoped that the allegations were not true.
I'm going now, won't be playing this weekend. Think this over, I'm very sad.
And not very coherent, sorry.
I ******* hate cheaters.
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Malachi
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:46:00 -
[38]
So what happens to the billions of isk that these bpos generated?
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0Virtu0
Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tiuwaz even if what t20 did was wrong i hope he keeps his job
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Susan Mathers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:47:00 -
[40]
I'm happy to see some accountability and some disclosure for a topic that is so heated. I'm sure others are going to be asking, but what of some of the other issues that were alleged against BoB? Account Sharing, and insider knowledge of exploits, and said use of exploits. The current response of "If you feel that there has been a violation of the EULA... file a petition..." is not appropriate. The allegation has been made, and there is no need for multiple people to file a petition about it. Can CCP at least comment that the matter is also being looked into, and specifically what they are looking into? (or that the matter has been resolved)
But I am glad that more information has been shared. (and not to pick on t20, but I take it his abuse of the game did not lead to his termination of employment)
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:47:00 -
[41]
Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
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Zachri
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:48:00 -
[42]
t20
I have no doubt that the community will accept your apologies, but we hope this is not a case of burying the greater trends and issues by putting a small wrong on the table.
There is still a lot which needs to be addressed, this has never been about developers helping to do anything. This is about core issues regarding negative trends in the history of EVE and a multitude of outstanding individual topics.
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Mitsuko Souma
Gallente The United Federation of Spice
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tiuwaz even if what t20 did was wrong i hope he keeps his job
What he ^ said :/
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[44]
I honestly dont think its good enoug T20. You knew you were breaking the rules.
As pointed out. CCP is hitting the bottom. Its hard to believe in CCP now, when people like T20, who is the face of CCP to some extend to the outside(He were on Evetv several time), admits that he did such things. It being bob doesnt make it any better
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: ceaon
u know the rule u break the rule now OUT
In my opinion, it really is that simple. Why is he still around?
Originally by: Zhull Are all items gained by this unfair advantage going to be removed?
The DEV blog mentions the BPOs. What about the items produced by the BPO that are in the hands of players and any money made from insurance or sale of such items?
I can only hope each and everyone is removed.
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[46]
the bpo returns is a start.
but the money made from that which must be billions. will this be returned. i very much doubt it. so the damage has been done.
what is keiron answer to this question
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
General Xenophon
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[47]
Shameful. Absolutely shameful. -> http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=424
While in part my opinion of CCP has been lowered by this, I understand that we being human are imperfect and there is a true need for forgiveness all around. This said, I as a player in the community of Eve, wish to forgive the offender. CCP please please make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. Let's learn from our mistakes and move on. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Boondock Saints |
ZaKma
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[48]
While t20 did something he shouldn't have done, I really hope he doesn't get fired. He's been with the community for a long time.
It's not like the BPO's made some huge difference in terms of isk or advantage or anything. It's wrong of course, but nothing staggering.
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James Potkukelkka
Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[49]
Finally, an answer.
NOW you can use the line, you tried earlier: Originally by: kieron We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.
-- Always trust the devs
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:49:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 09/02/2007 20:46:12
Originally by: Arowe Telak All except the Sabre bpo, which is one of the best.
Anyways, at the very least I hope all the accusations in COAD dies down. It was getting a bit stupid tbh.
Wait, what? One of the accusations has proven to be 100% true. The person who was guilty assured us that the others were false, but to be entirely honest, I'm not sure how much trust we should put in his word.
If anything, this makes me pretty adamant that the other issues need to be investigated in-depth, and the results shared with the community.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:50:00 -
[51]
So basically to summarize at this point, what exactly has been/is going to be done? So far I see nothing from either post as far as actual results from the investigation besides the 'return of the T2 BPOs to the lottery' (big deal).
Is t20 going to be terminated and/or recieving any kind of punishment? Are all the players that are *not* devs that have been banned etc. going to recieve reparations since they have been proved correct?
What is to become of the billions of ISK generated with the BPOs since their introduction into the game? What is CCPs official standing policy going to be now so that when/if this occures in the future the community will know *FOR SURE* what will happen to the offender?
The community at large is still left wanting for some actual results and closure of this incedent. What say you CCP?
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. |
Raketefrau
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:50:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
How much similar activity is going on that we don't know about? This one case gets revealed, and CCP, after being dragged hesitantly through the mud, reaches out with a horrible reaction.
How do we know that this isn't continuing to happen elsewhere in the universe? What faith are now supposed to have in CCP's watchguarding abilities?
How are we supposed to trust the fact that CCP isn't sweeping other, lesser-known "crimes" under the rug as well?
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:50:00 -
[53]
Thanks guys and gals. Thats what we needed. lets move on now, shall we? ------------------------------------
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Garrakh
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:51:00 -
[54]
Not enough. Guys, if you dont react to this appropiately you are all going to lose your jobs.
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:51:00 -
[55]
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to update us.
Personally I don't want vengeance, I want reform. I don't want to see anyone sacked, but I want to see a clear line drawn under this incident so that it doesn't reoccur.
Everyone seems fixated on the techII blueprints, which is understandable, for an individual player they represent an unimaginable wealth and for a corp or alliance a huge boon, but they are but only a trivial aspect of the entire affair, that is that a few individuals with power have abused it for their own ends, be it Dev, GM or ISD volunteer. It only takes a few rotten apples to taint the entire barrel and without transparency and accountability innocent actions are tarred with the same brush as guilty ones. e.g. A day before announcement of the BoB offensive a GM was apparently spotted flying from moon to moon in one of their enemies systems. Such could be a completely innocent act in the performance of their normal duties, but in light of recent concerns the cynic in mean is inclined to presume that some corrupt GM was using his polaris frigate to scout for BoB.
Mr Petursson, I dont want t20's head on a platter, I dont want an apology, but unless there is root and branch reform so that not only is the entire system fair, but clearly seen to be fair, then I will regretfully take my money elsewhere.
Please give me a reason to stay, playing a game I love made by a company I respect. - - - PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery |
Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:51:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Lucre on 09/02/2007 20:51:13
Originally by: Kurj Valdoria Wow. In the grand scheme of things that ammounts to seriously so little. Anyone demanding more or threatening to quit over this still feel free to contract your stuff to me.
That's kind of like saying "well, it was only half a dozen murders and only one of them was anybody even halfway important".
And if this was known about last June, why has it taken this many days (and angry posts) of "investigation" including at least one "I hope we can now put this behind us" before the truth came out? If this is indeed the whole truth and not someone drawing the short straw and throwing themselves off the sledge to try to placate the wolves?
And yes, that is cynical. But when we've been this betrayed, both in the original sin, in its policing, and in the time and pressure this "truth" has taken to be dragged out, kicking and screaming, why should we have any trust left?
We who love this game have been betrayed. By him. And by the rest of CCP.
Fix it. Fix it right. Get the truth out. All of it. Now. Please. |
Hesh Ballantine
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:52:00 -
[57]
Two items:
1) It's all well and good to have the blueprints returned to the lottery, but how can you possibly account for the all the income generated by those blueprints in the last seven months and all the assets purchased with said income?
2) Hellmar explains that in the past employees have been terminated for this behavior but makes no mention of t20's current fate. It's fine for him to sit there and beg forgiveness, but I'll bet he'd be a lot sorrier if he had to go on the dole. Furthermore you set a dangerous precedent by implying to other would-be inside men that they can cheat on behalf of their corp and still keep their job.
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Danny Hawk
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:53:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Raketefrau I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
maybes its so he cannto uncover more dodgy stuff in the band of developers. whats happenin to the profits made from these prints and the question is can u be 100% sure that no other of bob's t2 bpos are illgotten? Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
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Eva Simonson
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:54:00 -
[59]
Please stay constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Major Stormer
Caldari Red Storm Vendetta
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:54:00 -
[60]
I am personally happy to see a final resolve to this, and look forward to the commuanity moving on and to peoples attention moving to defeating the Band Of Brothers ingame.
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IntegralHellsing
Gallente The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:54:00 -
[61]
ok... just 1 thing. I won't shout 'UNBAN KUGUTSUSMEN' but surely it shows how CCP tried to cover its mess at first.
i'd say CCP's initial response was VERY POOR.
ps. Don't need to remove the BPO now. what's the point anyway. instead, punish the ones that are responsible. we don't need this type of crap happening again. ------------------------------
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Tea Spoon
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:54:00 -
[62]
Just removing the BPO's is a very lenient punishment, especially as the ones having had the benefit of having them all this time have a chance of getting them back. Both t20 and Hellmar hope very much this will be the end of this affair but I doubt that is the case.
By handing out items of such vast importance in the game the balance has been greatly disturbed, and the actions taken do very little to rectify this. I stand a good chance of being blown up in the near future by the Spike L ammo that exists only because of the fraudulent actions taken in the past and any losses caused by this should be petitionable as an exploit.
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Sathynos
Caldari Pink Bunnies C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:54:00 -
[63]
Finally, some courage on your part. But chatlogs on kugnusomething blog, however obtained in a bad manner, seem true and they show you (or oder dev, dont remember) fed them info they wouldn't otherwise had. Thas is imho much worse than bpos. And hiwever I recogize you coming forward and admitting obtaining bpo's in unsportly manner, I frankly do not believe all of the remaining chat logs were forged. I still believe there were much worse thins done than those bpos.
Now, since you admitted, tell me please what will be done not to bpos, but with profits gained from having them and stuff made. -- "Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing. Eve mercenaries portal: http://www.eve-mercs.com |
Amiable Quinn
Minmatar Lasleinur Production
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:55:00 -
[64]
Wow.
T20 I know it must not have been easy to write that blog, and I know you must be feeling terrible right now, but I think admitting what happened is good for the game and good for you. You have my respect for that.
CCP - We need to know the answers to the following questions because your answers thus far have been inadequate:
1. How many CCP employees play EvE?
2. How many are in 0.0 allinaces?
3. What is the distribution of main accounts among CCP employees? (In other words are their 20 devs in BoB and 1 alt in LV?)
4. How will you assure us that something like this NEVER happens again?
5. What about the numerous other allegations (including account sharing and other EULA violations)?
In addition:
All dev characters must leave any 0.0 alliance now.
BoB - You guys look like suckers. Especially Rod Blaine and Avon. Nothing personal but you all got on these boards and derided and insulted anyone who claimed these charges had veracity. You owe this community an apology as well.
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Traxio Nacho
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: aggro the bpo returns is a start.
but the money made from that which must be billions. will this be returned. i very much doubt it. so the damage has been done.
what is keiron answer to this question
I know it wasn't right him spawning the BPO's and not condoning it but other than the sabre BPO the ammo BPO isk wise is so low I doubt all of them put together made no more than afew hundred mil if that.
Also if they we're made to be used and none we're sold it would be difficult to get the isk back?
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:56:00 -
[66]
it has now been proved that BOB are cheaters, not all but the leaders knew about this.
the CEOS of these corps need to held to account. So now everything bob has achieved is so devalued i would be ashamed to be in said alliance.
So what is going to be done on this
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:56:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Emily Spankratchet on 09/02/2007 20:53:27
Right, so they've investigated. It's a bit fuzzy what's happening to t20. They've put in place regular audits to try and stop this happening again.
I'm happy with that. It's not ideal - how can anything about this be ideal now it's been blown up so big - but it's a step in the right direction.
All those of you whose faith in CCP is shattered and who could never consider playing again, please cancel your accounts. Form an orderly queue as you leave the game. The rest of us can try and get on with our in-game lives. The FBI are not going to investigate, and even if they did I suspect that some people wouldn't believe their findings.
Edit: And I've got one of those BPOs and it's crap. Why spawn that one t20? Are you mad?
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:56:00 -
[68]
So, due to kieron's first post does that mean that this would have been 'quietly ignored' if Kug hadn't uncovered it, and the community hadn't been so passionate? Is it in fact possible for a Dev to cover their tracks, seeing as this wasn't detected at the time (nor during the IA investigation); and if so, how much more has been missed?
What about BoB? Whilst 'prior knowledge' cannot be proved at all, several T2 BPO's for 6 months have a definitely secondary impact on the amount of money and progress an alliance can make. Are these effects to go unbalanced? After all, CCP puts players accounts into negative ISK if they have gained that ISK through underhand means.
Whilst I can see Devs need to play this game, I agree with the suggestions that they need their hands 'cut off' to some degree. Can CCP not implement a higher level of logging on employee player characters?
I hope this investigation has not ended, and that details will still be released to the community. As it stands, I suspect that unfortunatly a lot of people will want t20's head for this, and an apology via DevBlog will not heal things.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Vincent S
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:56:00 -
[69]
You could start by unbanning Kugutsmen and personally and publicly apologizing to him. Had he not released this information, you would have done everything in your power to ban all whistleblowers to cover up the incident, just like you sweep these forums of anything at all that casts you in a bad light. Furthermore I think you should be ashamed of yourself for having so bad control over the T2 lottery that a developer can just spawn BPOs for his friends, and one of the most powerful alliances at that. The only appropriate action here is to fire T20 and punish everyone in BoB who knew about this severely.
Also, if you're banning Kugutsmen, I assume Molle will be next since he also posted personal information. If not, you have learned nothing and you are still extremely biased. |
DDaisy
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:57:00 -
[70]
Damage Limitation. As for without knowledge from fellow co-workers or alliance members? Tragically the damage was done the day you carried out these actions. And as for the "tinfoil hats" trolling from people defending you? You should be ashamed of yourself. This is not just about allegations of cheating, abuse of EULAs or anything else on that level. This is about thousands of people, THOUSANDS! paying hard earned money to play a game that is essential corrupt at its core. My job in real life is to help people with disabilities to return to work, perhaps I should try to con them out of some of their wages in the hope that "they'll never know".
Truly disgusted.
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Krugerrand
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:57:00 -
[71]
Seriously, while it shows CCP up shouting that these BPOS have "shifted the balance" is a bunch of crap.
BoB make enough ISK on their POS network which far surpasses income from them, most of the production would be kept in-alliance and I'm positive BoB would have purchased those BPOs if they hadn't got them by these means.
Also removing the ISK would be hard since the money trail would be extremely long.
I understand its a breach of trust but so far its still a minor incident, if more is uncovered, maybe it will change.
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Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:57:00 -
[72]
personally i dont think he should be kicked from his job but rather have a complete ban on playing eve-online with anything other then a Dev tag on him.
also there was more BPO's that he gave away and now when the cat is out of the bag and another item of kugutsumens list has been verified dont you Devs think its time to put a microscope on atleast all members and ex members of RKK?
we saw the smoke and you confirmed the fire now, how about trying to put out the flames properly also.
start with banning a certain person from said alliance who posted "REAL LIFE" name and workplace of another person on these very forums.
i sure know that if i had done that i would have been permabanned in a heartbeat, why isnt he and all his characters permabanned?
equal moderation for everyone.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:57:00 -
[73]
Is there a reason why the people who willingly accepted "spawned" BPOs haven't been banned? I think that's just as bad as someone spawning them.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:59:00 -
[74]
Originally by: ZaKma While t20 did something he shouldn't have done, I really hope he doesn't get fired. He's been with the community for a long time.
It's not like the BPO's made some huge difference in terms of isk or advantage or anything. It's wrong of course, but nothing staggering.
As from the blog:
Quote:
... and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts ...
Non-negotiable. Sorry to see someone lose their job, but t20 should be out on his ass. yarr. |
Lars Erlkonig
Caldari Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:59:00 -
[75]
and what is going to happen to t20?
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 20:59:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Caliwyrm O''Libr on 09/02/2007 20:58:21 1) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to stay in the same corp for over 6 months (leads to favoritism) 2) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to accept a leadership position in ANY corp/alliance (DEFINATELY a conflict of interest) 3) No CCP employee should ever directly compete with a paying customer outside of PvP (That means no T2 BPOs of ANY kind of ANY legitamicy, no market fixing, no reselling rare items for profit, etc) 4) Any CCP employee that witnesses his current mates doing anything wrong should report it (ie the Cynonet account sharing)
Kugut should be unbanned. If Kugut was banned for giving out personal info on another player/dev then CCP needs to ban people like Molle who gave out Kugut's RL info. If Kugut ws banned for out of game actions.. well, that just opens a can of worms the size of Wyoming..
Added:
For the record I also highly suggest you keep a thread open for people to vent their anger and frustration in the next time this happens (don't laugh, this is, what, the 3rd confirmed time?). People who are angry and frustrated tend to get outright HOSTILE when they're punished on top of it for posting in other threads. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Michelle Mathers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:00:00 -
[77]
I'm not very happy about the accusation that a GM was possibly scouting a system that Bob plans to attack.. Hopefully that can be answered VERY quickly as that has the possibility to become a VERY big issue (or at least have the appearance of STILL ongoing abuse of power)
Please, continue to address ALL the allegations presented. While I don't condone what kugutsumen did, as stated before, MANY people have posted information from outside sources *ASCN WAR* with impunity! (or at least, those posts were NOT taken down by ISD/CCP, while Kugutsumen's were) Maybe a statment that Kugutsumen's account will either be re-instated, or that the Ban was for some other infraction that he committed outside of the Dev Misconduct accusations..
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Perianwyr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:00:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Perianwyr on 09/02/2007 20:59:20 t20, get the **** out.
Good God. Haven't you ever heard of GM Darwin?
"What do you mean I can't sell castle deeds I create on Ebay?" - GM Darwin circa 1999
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NereSky
Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:01:00 -
[79]
After reading the blogs i agree on a personnel note to put this behind us now , as i dont want to see this scar damage the game, but my faith in CCP has been badley shaken, BoB ,well, you will always be more remembered by this than for any other reason, there will always be doubt that the other allegations were false , but now we will never know and have to trust that a full investigation did in fact clear BoB from the other allegations. t20 your apology is accepted by me even though there are still many question marks hanging over this sorry affair im willing to put this behind me for the sake of the game.
Now lets just get on with the Game please.
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Ben Hump
Minmatar The Kru
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:01:00 -
[80]
Please try and remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
May contain traces of irony, period and enter do not belong on my keyboard "Yes Mister Tristan"
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:01:00 -
[81]
Edited by: aggro on 09/02/2007 20:58:31 why have you not banned the people who profited from this.
you ban the guy who exposed this.
SORRY CCP YOU HAVE MADE THE WRONG DECISION ON THIS ONE
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:02:00 -
[82]
You have addressed my concerns and completely verified them.
You have no ability, let alone intention, of policing your employees and their ingame actions. It took the actions of a third party to uncover them, and that was only addressed when you couldn't make it just all go away. That person now sits banned from EVE for actions EXPLICITLY not covered under the EULA and TOS, while another numerous individuals connected to this scandal who have violated the EULA and TOS sit here reaping the benefits. Your ingame events are riddled with fraud and your GM express not only favoritism but a distinct lack of knowledge concerning the game.
In short, you've done nothing except confirm what we already knew.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:02:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Traxio Nacho I know it wasn't right him spawning the BPO's and not condoning it but other than the sabre BPO the ammo BPO isk wise is so low I doubt all of them put together made no more than afew hundred mil if that.
Also if they we're made to be used and none we're sold it would be difficult to get the isk back?
I guess CCP can lookup the number of runs a BPO has been used for, and fine BoB for that amount. Though it is difficult to judge the 'value' of T2 stuff, since it;s mostly a seller's market.
The alternative is to remove an equal number of existing items (that have been created) from BoB's pilots. If 20 Sabre's have been made, remove those 20 Sabre's from hangars if they exist.
Of course, this creates a secondary paper trail of the minerals and components that BoB legitimately put into their manufacture.
It's going to be a nightmare.
It think also, aside from the 'few hundred mill', that's not the point. Taking it to the n'th degree, imagine if an alliance got hold of a Titan that it shouldn't have. Such a ship could cause massive amounts of collateral damage to enemies that wouldnt have been possible without said Titan. It could even effectively destroy an alliance. So the 'lost ISK' goes far beyond any ships that have been created.
And I suspect someone trying to work out the financial loss to other players from BoB's illigitimate will effectively be impossible.
So, the BPO buttefly flexed its wings, and through chaos theory caused tidal waves thousands of miles away.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Ohmite
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 -
[84]
Can you answer this question
Why are you punishing the whistleblower but not the people within BOB who knew what they were doing is wrong and who have profited from t20 actions
It seems you are punishing the wrong people, this is what most of eve are unhappy about, punish the people who have done wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 -
[85]
Originally by: t20 Blog Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true.
Returning the BPOs is a good start. However, the issue remains of any isk that would have been generated via these ill-gottent BPOs. At the very least, BoB should have to payback a percentage of the profits these BPOs would be expected to produce over the time they were in BoB's possesion.
Regarding t20s future, he should AT THE VERY LEAST be banned from playing the game for an extended period (i.e. any player accounts he may have now and he should not be allowed to create any new accounts). His future with CCP should also be seriously considered going forward.
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Inky Blackness
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 -
[86]
crappy bpo's except for the sabre , who cares, like a major alliance like bob or ascn or d2 prob have multiple copies of most t2 bpo's through their members, anyone who thinks that leads to a particular advantage should have their heads examined, actually it's much better to have em as solo player..
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Liet Traep
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 -
[87]
I'm sorry that the allegations are true but not suprised. I think t20 should be disciplined for his misconduct. I don't believe fired though. But what about the isk made from the bpo's? And what of the players who knew he was a dev and took those bpo's? I consider that cheating and think they should be banned.
And what about the whistleblower? Even though he had to hack RKK's accounts to do it he proved they were cheating when CCP was unwilling and unable to do the same. He has done Eve and CCP a great favour. he should get his accounts back and maybe a nifty statue in jita for him. You ban the guy who uncovers cheating and misconduct and not ban the cheaters themselves. I think CCP has more work to do.
As for BoB. Some of you are old friends of mine and some of you I frankly have less warm feelings about. But it's sad this happens. Higher ups in your alliance have been caught cheating. Who knows how many of your impressive accomplishments are tainted. We'll never know and this cloud may hang on your alliance for some time. For those innocent of cheating I'm sorry. For those who have been cheating all along I'm waiting for you to get a good swift kicking.
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DDaisy
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 -
[88]
Hacking and all that crap is really lame tbh. But the fact that it seems to have been the only way to out this, is indicative of how deep this went. As for divulging someone's rl info on the forums? Don't care who it was they should no longer be playing this game.....period. That is non negotiable.
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:04:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 09/02/2007 21:01:24 Sad to see how human nature can sometimes let us do wrong stuff, putting your job on the line for a stupid little advantage in a damn game ffs :(
On those people going: "OMG! Super much billions of ISK profits!"...
Sabre BPO is the only one of those that makes a decent profit, but it nowhere near the likes of Ballistic Control II, Cerberus, Nighthawk, etc.
You might be talking maybe 400m / week tops, maybe a lot to a goon, but nothing in the larger scale of things. Yes, BDCI owns a Sabre BPO. -
- One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them. |
Ace Frehley
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:04:00 -
[90]
Oki, honestly
You can repair the damage by: Give all damn corps in eve 12 t2 bpo each 1 dev at maximum per alliance, better control. 1 cant cheat, 2 or more can cover up for each other. I heard rumors that Sir molle posted kugs real name.. will we know sir molleŠs real name etc etc? Just woundering, btw how you can repair this huge damage ccp got? Even I know some basic human behavior that ccp dident apperntly know, and IŠm not near Einsteins IQ.. IŠm really dissepointed
Girljerms is more lethal then a fleet of 1000 Tempests Yeah IŠm nude, IŠm a swede and IŠm armed with bad jokes
[url="http://www. |
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Laendra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:04:00 -
[91]
As much as it pains me to see that a Dev actually cheated in the game...it's not like they were incredibly expensive item BPOs, so it is very likely that they made very little, if any, difference in the game. Outrage could be expected if, for example, they were 6 HAC BPOs, but the simple fact of the matter, is they were not. They were ammo BPOs, and a interdictor BPO. Ammo BPOs are the crap-tastic invention of the year, and interdictors are less than wallet-breaking. Yes, it was grossly unfair. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, I am glad this came to light and we were all informed of the actions and that they are to be reintroduced. In the grand scheme of things, did it make a difference in BoB's superiority over their enemies? No. AFAIK, money has never been an issue for BoB, so having perhaps cheaper access to the items in question would not be that great of a deal.
In the end, it comes down to what is to be done about it. Corrective action for t20? Dunno the answer to that (but, if he would give us our god-forsaken item database updates and data exports, I'd be a lot happier with him, and less willing to string him up ). Installation of better tracking tools and more scrutinization for CCP player and Dev accounts? Definately.
Perhaps, as an equalizing tactic, everyone in EVE be given a portion of the sales generated from the sale of the items created with those BPOs. Even if they were given away free, a weighted average market price could be used. Or, make empire a FFA for 24 hours
In the end, t20 is only human....human's make mistakes. Here's hoping that he, and the rest of the EVE community have learned from t20's mistakes, and learn not to take advantage of an unfair situation.
Cheers to CCP for airing their dirty laundry. Now, everyone back to your function keys. ------------------- |
Exioce
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:05:00 -
[92]
What about the money and other advantages that were gained by the use of these BPO's? How will those that benefited, or those that were harmed be compensated?
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Xy Kintar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:05:00 -
[93]
With all the assurances that *absolutely nothing wrong happened*, with these revelations is hard to believe that this isn't just the tip of the iceberg. Stuff like the old southern coalition being given a mothership and that time a newbie was caught with faction gear linked to a gm implies that this kind of thing goes on all the time. Don't whitewash this, don't allow the playing field to be determined by who has the most pet CCP employees.
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Izo Azlion
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:05:00 -
[94]
The fact a GM is that corrupt leaves me with little confidence. Their GM's. They shouldnt influence the game in such a way like that, even if their Ammo BPO's or not.
I'm disgraced, considering I get forum warnings and my posts edited, and he can be allowed to be responsible for something like that, and only apologize once hes been caught.
No, not fair play.
Izo Azlion.
---
Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig. |
Serenity Steele
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate Operations Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:05:00 -
[95]
Well, caught out on principle I guess. Nothing in that list that makes a drop of difference to the game. Still no condolable actions, but lesson learnt.
The most remarkable thing is that Devs were accused of being members/helping RKK - the worst of all the BOB corps at doing anything with anything even remotely industrial - even today
To find out the (lack of) scale of helping makes it even funnier. Kudos for posting it, and don't quit your day-job.
Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:06:00 -
[96]
As I said above. It's the immesurable differences. If a fleet decided not to attack, because the enemy had two extra T2 ships.
We'll never know.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:06:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
The sabre is an excellent BPO to have if you use a large T2 sniper fleet. It makes your combat strategy dirt cheap. One of your Sigs contained inappropriate material for the eve-o forums, please email [email protected] for a explination. - hutch Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Udoshi
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:07:00 -
[98]
CCP's policy towards ISK buying sends a clear message towards cheaters. It seeems appropriats to apply it in this case as well.
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Ariso
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:07:00 -
[99]
Quote:
All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one.
And we should believe you?
Quote: Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics.
Even the above is a lie... because how could devs control the game without having an unfair advantage over normal players?
I'm very saddened that this was all know prior to all the forum uproar and nothing was done. I'm also saddened that Kieron has to look a fool infront of the whole community because of a lack of action.
Quote: Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have.
As for the above a developer who works on balancing ships in eve and making capital ships work, but also being incharge of capital fleets in a large alliance is a conflict of interests and any knowledge as a commander would come from your extra knowledge of eve.
I'm with others saying T20 should be punished like Hellmar outlined in his blog.
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Amiable Quinn
Minmatar Lasleinur Production
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:08:00 -
[100]
Notice no BoB player has shown their face, but a bunch of alts are now arguing that 6 T2 BPO's were "no big deal?"
Seriously guys, you are really not fooling anybody.
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matty01
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:09:00 -
[101]
Edited by: matty01 on 09/02/2007 21:05:23
tbh i think this'll raise even more questions, like "well they did this, what else did they do?"
which sucks, because none of this would have been exposed if it wasn't for the one thing, and all the rabble that caused. __________________________
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:09:00 -
[102]
I'll let my sig speak for itself. ...Free Kugutsumen... |
Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:09:00 -
[103]
Since the thread I posted this in is now locked i'll give my view here in there "offical dev cheats" thread
Saying sorry after something like this just don't cut it... Hope you get fired over this.
Stupid.. Pure and simple..
CCP Stop hiring Kids that can't keep there hand out of the cookie jar. -------------------------------------------
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:09:00 -
[104]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 As I said above. It's the immesurable differences. If a fleet decided not to attack, because the enemy had two extra T2 ships.
We'll never know.
You can buy Sabres on the market too you know... They fit in carriers, I move them all the time. :) And they're pretty dirt cheap throwaway ships at that. Don't think for a second a single Sabre BPO dictates fleet makeups. :) -
- One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them. |
William Brasky
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:10:00 -
[105]
The apology means nothing when you outright lie during it. Anyone who has seen any of the information that brought on the investigation saw posts implicitly saying that RKK and BoB directors knew he was there and received information from him. They also paid him for use of the BPOs after he left the corp the first time he was outed. I hope he gets terminated but the CEO post seems to be trying to weasel out of having to do that.
Just another stepping stone of trying to sweep things under the rug.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:10:00 -
[106]
So let me gets this straight T20 was on the Overwatch team. He game material help in game to BoB, Covered his own Ass and now asks for forgiveness?
So basically I am being told that the constraints that were put into place, Over a year ago, Are useless as they can be manipulated by the very same people. also it takes Out of game measures to instigate an investigation yet CCP is going to ban the Whistle blower?
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Milena Marich
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:10:00 -
[107]
Referee's don't play on a football team. Referee's don't play on a football team. How hard is to understand that?
Check this out: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=156
It just gets bigger and bigger.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:10:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Kerushi on 09/02/2007 21:07:30 and no one finds it funny that those are most of the crap bpo`s?
tip of the iceberg i`ll bet, what would happen to alliances when 600b in ship/modules bpo`s would be removed? eaier to use a scapegoat with crap bpo`s and have it go away as usuall...
who`s stupid enough to do it for a few bil only?
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Luthien Firefoot
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:10:00 -
[109]
Seems pretty simple to me:
1) Fraud, committed by an employee is gross misconduct and should therefore result in termination of employment.
2) This is probably just the tip of the iceberg and so it's more than reasonable to assume that BOB has benefitted in the billions of isk, it's not so difficult to see now how they manage to beat the rest of EVE, is it?
3) No-one could make me believe that there are players within BOB who knew nothing about this, you're telling me that a dev did this and never spoke of it to anyone? Not once on ts? Not after a few beers? Not mentioned to the ppl building / copying the bpos? OFC he did and so whatever opinion we may have of the isk benefit to BOB, they are tainted by this and something more should be done to investigate them.
4) I am glad that ccp had the guts to be honest and reveal this, it may be late, it most certainly isn't the full story or the resolution, but it's a start.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:11:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Aertuun on 09/02/2007 21:08:23 So, what we have here:
1. The one allegation that can actually be tested using in-game logs is admitted, and turns out to be true.
2. The two allegations that cannot actually be tested at all are rigorously denied. How convenient!
Did T20 lie about it at the time? Did he keep it secret for an entire year?
If he lied at the time, then kept it secret from his work friends and colleagues, why believe him now?
If T20 didn't lie about it at the time, that meant CCP knew about the BPOs, and chose to do nothing. CCP may have, in fact, been persuaded to do nothing.
Why, exactly, did it take some hacker to discover all this? It turns out he was right all along, and got all his accounts banned for the privilege. That could be passed off as the developers taking revenge (after all, they just had their accounts taken away from them!). Again, CCP as a company may have been... persuaded to take action.
There could also be questions about whether CCP actually wanted to reveal all this information. They only announced they would reveal more information AFTER Kieron declared the entire matter closed (how is that closed?), and after long 24 page thread of people saying they were covering something up.
And now we discover, in fact, that CCP were covering something up. They throw out a scapegoat to the masses (no-one else is to blame? How'd they find out that, then, look at more of Kugut's information?), and hope the entire matter will be overlooked without more negative coverage from Slashdot and other gaming sites.
Well, it might work.
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:11:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 09/02/2007 21:01:24 Sad to see how human nature can sometimes let us do wrong stuff, putting your job on the line for a stupid little advantage in a damn game ffs :(
On those people going: "OMG! Super much billions of ISK profits!"...
Sabre BPO is the only one of those that makes a decent profit, but it nowhere near the likes of Ballistic Control II, Cerberus, Nighthawk, etc.
You might be talking maybe 400m / week tops, maybe a lot to a goon, but nothing in the larger scale of things. Yes, BDCI owns a Sabre BPO.
these bpos are the ones that have been declared and can bet many more have found there way into said alliances.
Money is only part of the issue, the other part is the ceo and directors of coprp knowing and excepting the tainted bpos. this is what needs to be asked.
Winning at all cost which include hax,gms knowledge etc is so sad in this great game. I feel sorry for people willing to go down this road.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:12:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr
Originally by: FireFoxx80 As I said above. It's the immesurable differences. If a fleet decided not to attack, because the enemy had two extra T2 ships.
We'll never know.
You can buy Sabres on the market too you know... They fit in carriers, I move them all the time. :) And they're pretty dirt cheap throwaway ships at that. Don't think for a second a single Sabre BPO dictates fleet makeups. :)
But making them for [comparatively] free costs nothing.
As I said earlier, it's immesurable, and certainly unlikely. But it's still possible.
Even a BoB roaming gang then.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:12:00 -
[113]
Its nice that finally light comes into the dark, but sadly the truth bringer is still banned ! On the other side, CCP cant track most of the stuff in question cos leaking information about upcomming events and game changes is not trackable but maybe more worth then these T2 bpo`s ! It also total clear that T20 says now nothing else happens and no BOB member ever knows about the cheating ! BOB stated more then once that they where real friends, would you hung your friend dry ? But IŠm still interested about the reactions from BOB, special from Dianabolic after he stated gazillion times that BOB are "UBER" and so need no Dev help !
But way to go CCP, there are still some open issues about account sharing, RL info leaking on E-O etc etc !
The real sad thing on it is that every small grunt from BOB will now earn what others have clearly known for a long time, every comming victory for BOB will have a bad taste !!! And BOB will be called from now on BOD !
Free / unbann Kugutsumen...
sry for bad english
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots |
nickky01
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:13:00 -
[114]
so...your telling me...
over a year ago, sitting in 9CG, listening to xirtamvolf rant and rave on teamspeak about how bob uses devs to cheat...
he was right??
/me goes to build a snowman in hell
-------------------------------------------
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
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DDaisy
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:13:00 -
[115]
I trust this "blog" will be moved to the Players News Centre where it should be for all to read when they log into game.
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Midori Kumiyo
Minmatar Universal Agencies
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:14:00 -
[116]
Any business who wishes for credibility would fire this developer.
I am glad he has come out with the truth, but the statement means effectively nothing if proper punishment is not doled out.
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Cedori
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:14:00 -
[117]
So, it's time for me to toss in my, admittedly newbie view point on things.
First off, let me go on the record. I'm not an alt, I'm a person who just started playing the game in December. And I'm loving it so far. I'm nowhere near jumping into the deep end of 0.0 due to limited playtimes with my school schedule either.
To this point, this investigation seems to be a case of "whelp, we got caught, let's give up enough to move on". The BPO's were the most obvious issue with the formerly accused activities. But basically 3 main accusations were made.
1) Certain members of the EVE Dev staff were in high end corps, and specifically in BoB, with at least one being a director of RKK 2) Said Dev/Director, transfered 10 BPO's to RKK that were gained illicitly. 3) Said Dev/Director, provided insight, intelligence, and information to BoB concerning ingame events.
Two of those accusations are true. They've been admitted as such. Combined with what the effect of the second activity entails, I find it hard to believe that the Dev/Director in question never passed on additional information/intelligence to the rest of the BoB leadership. An innocent comment in one light, directly translates to malicious intent in another.
This leads to my main point. While I appreciate the thought that it is not possible to properly balance this game without being able to play it, it should be a rule set in stone from up on high, that no Dev can join any of the "high-end" alliances, and no Dev should EVER become a director within said alliance. Human nature being what it is, nobody can reasonably be expected to not take sides/play favorites with a corp that they are a director of. Merely having Devs in these corps is enough to paint the whole exercise with an unfavorable light, and having one as a director will lead directly to accusations of favoritism. And has been shown by this entire unfortunate affair, accusations tend to be true if they're backed up with evidence.
Therefore, set, publish, and enforce a set of rules for Dev's not being allowed to play the game in an kind of position that would compromise their neutrality. As it stands now, these crimes have no real bearing on me due to my play styles, but they absolutely leave me with a nasty taste in my mouth. I eventually want to get into the 0.0 PvP alliance game, and knowing that there is even a CHANCE of impropriety will probably cause me to quit. This game is challenging enough without the famous "sandbox" that is EvE Online being stacked against you.
I also believe that the charactor who originally uncovered this(kung something, bad with names) should have his accounts unbanned. He did nothing that is not done by other "high end corps" of EvE, except that he managed to find a slightly sweeter honey pot of information then most corp spys tend to do. In fact this activity, when done by BoB and the like is condoned as "part of the game" by the Dev Staff. But when said activities out one of their own, suddenly it's a bannable offence.
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Raketefrau
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:15:00 -
[118]
So in total, the end result of this is that some T2 BPOs go back into the lottery, and Kugutsmen gets banned.
Um, CCP? Does this in ANY WAY seem like a just conclusion to all this?
How 'bout:
SELECT isk FROM sales where ITEM='sabre' AND ALLIANCE='BOB'
Take the money back. Deal with Sir Molle in the same way you've dealt with Kugutsmen. At least Kugutsmen was in the right on this, Sir Molle was just being vindictive for actually getting caught.
We've had to force you to take even these few steps you've taken, PLEASE don't force the community into demanding actual justice for the crimes commited.
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Kyra Azor
Silver Train
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:15:00 -
[119]
I am shocked. Actually the accusation that proved to be true was the most innocent one but also the only traceable. I didn't imagine a dev spawning T2 BPOs and not very good ones too. Sorry t20, but it was stupid. If I was a dev trying to benefit my in-game character or my friends, I would use my inside information. For example what's a Sabre BPO compared to the information of damage control upgrade or the Expanded Cargohold BPO upgrade.
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:16:00 -
[120]
I sure hope t20 won't lose his job
Sometimes finding the truth hurts
Retired [ISSN]
[Video] Skool of Harpy - Da Blarpy |
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FGxHalsey
Freedom Guard Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:16:00 -
[121]
Removing and reseeding those BPO's was the right thing to do. I would ask that CCP does NOT attempt to retroactively remove any resultant BPC's, isk, or items created with those BPO's because most of those players involved are probably innocent and unaware that the items/money aquired were illigitimate.
1) I think CCP needs to specifically address the account sharing issue. 2) In the future, CCP should remember that even the appearance of impropriety is bad for the game and their relations with the community.
I think you've taken the first steps towards restoring player confidence in the company but it will take time and a visible, serious commitment to stop cheating.
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Dano Sarum
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:16:00 -
[122]
Its pretty rediculous that a DEV can be allowed to spawn a bunch of T2 BPO's on TQ and it take 6 months + for any questions to be asked, had the community not kicked up about it would this be simply left as it is?
Not long ago I remember a post stating how internal auditing had gotten much stricter, I really don't understand why on earth any DEV needs to be spawning stuff on his DEV accounts / characters let alone feels the need to pass them on to himself.
You really have to ask yourself is this just corruption on CCPs part or plain incompetence. Frankly I'm a little dissapointed, with rumors abound of "zomg can't compete in eve, players who started 2/3 years before me I can never catch up to" and "whats the point, GM/ISD chars just exploit the information they have" you would really hope that you guys would have stricter rules and controls in place for this.
This is blatant abuse on t20's part, I really really really find it unlikely that a person willing to be stupid enough to spawn high profile items for themselves wouldn't do other, more minor and less tracable things to gain an advantage for himself or others.
And doing this so publically... I mean damn really, unless you intend to make a serious example of what happened here and severly tighten up your security (especially the DEV's) then this whole story should never have become public, it looks really really bad for the game. ______
<Insert Sig Here> |
Blitter
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Definitely would like this addressed. Why would a GM be scanning moons in a dead end station system the day before a BoB wardec when you guys haven't shown us any attention for months?
Dismissing the income and effect of these BPOS is laughable. Until recently my entire alliance had 0 t2 BPOs. The profit of a single sabre BPO would have made up a significant part of our war chest 6 months ago (admittedly not now).
The first post on the matter was sadly incomplete and remains incomplete -- there's still a Hel flying around that was cheated for and completely glossed over. You say it's been too long to investigate? I say you're wrong. Here's the thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405587 Goonfleet had eyes on the target station the entire time. That's 4 freighters worth of goods. One freighter docked. The ISD tipoff was even ADMITTED at the time, yet nothing was done. Just like that issue, many of us feel the more recent issues run far deeper than your response indicates.
There's also the issue that you guys have shot the messenger repeatedly when the stuff he's produced has been repeatedly verified to be true. He who is not to be named needs his accounts back.
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Fred0
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:16:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Fred0 on 09/02/2007 21:13:22 I've lost faith in the game now. I think you are lying through your teeth ccp, it's obvious from the logs that CCP developers have shared information with RKK directors and yet you refute it.
First you tried to hide this under the carpet and now you are limiting your guilt as much as you can, is your stance that the kugutsumen logs where DimZ acknowledges inside information from ccp are fake? Is the instance where he says he passed it on to the rest of the directorship also fake?
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:18:00 -
[125]
If one lost a ship or pod to a BOB Sabre or to any of the ammo types listed can one expect to be reimbursed fully?
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:19:00 -
[126]
hmmmm 1) fire him .... not realy an option, when he did a good job itŠs ok, we are all just human and itŠs up to his boss
2) i think we still donŠt believe that is everything, for example the gm ship scouting in regions where BOB wants to go, it happened not only in goon space, friend just told me that it already happened a while back when his corp wanted to drop a pos in bob space to claim souvereignity and only a gm ship was in the system and suddenly 30-40 BOB spawned ...
3) as the recent event have discovered the tools to check the GMs, DEV and ISD staff are not effective anymore. ccp needs to find a new way to make sure that stuff like this will never happen again.
4) no clue, donŠt like rumors so i stop here
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:19:00 -
[127]
Seems like more and more of the evidence uncovered and released on K's forum is being validated. How long until the rest of the accusations are also confirmed, or does the community have to pitch a fit over every last detail until CCP takes it seriously?
There's still a whole laundry list of issues that isn't being covered here, whether they are completely separate, or related to the accusations that have already been confirmed.
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Lasanna
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:19:00 -
[128]
Though I don't condone the whistleblowers out of game behavior(obtaining the information)
If the sacrificial lamb keeps his job, the whistleblower should also be allowed back. It's not right to punish him for out of game activities, unless your willing to fully punish your employee with termination, per your own rules. As his actions have clearly put a spotlight on employee actions you now admit had been allowed to fester into this mess.
It's a bit difficult to ask us to forgive your employee, if CCP can't find the heart to forgive the whistleblower.
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Bombcrater
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:19:00 -
[129]
Okay, that addresses the accusations of dev cheating (but in a very sparse and unsatisfactory way).
But what about the rest? Kugutsumen's information showed multiple examples of EULA violations from people in BoB sharing accounts. Those allegations need to be investigated and the results released.
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Heintron
Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:19:00 -
[130]
Unfortunate that it took a whistleblower to get this out in the open, and that fact makes you wonder what might be going on that he missed. Even more unfortunate that he is now banned for actions that "others" hasn't been banned for. The taint of favouritism of a certain alliance will be hard to wash off.
I for one would like to know what guidelines Dev's must follow when in a position to change the delicate balance of power in eve. Do devs have somekind of eula? In other words, I would like to have somekind of quality insurance in this game. If possible :P |
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Laudicia
LV2 Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:20:00 -
[131]
anymore ilegal bpo`s ingame?>
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Hilabana
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:20:00 -
[132]
I do hope t20 keeps working for CCP for a person to make one error in a game is not impotent enuff to have what they love taken from them !
And as for all the damn cry babys out there if you worry more about your own corp mates selling there own char for real money or having some ISK seller working with them or next to them the game will get a lot better ! For shame on you that points a finger even after it has been fix ! Many of you that are crying about this sound like little kids fighting over what person may have more candy then them!
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:20:00 -
[133]
I'm going to join the bandwagon calling for t20's head on this one, it is outright cheating to do what he's done. Returning the BPOs now are a half-assed measure at settling the score, I fully hope his employment is terminated.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:20:00 -
[134]
Originally by: DDaisy I trust this "blog" will be moved to the Players News Centre where it should be for all to read when they log into game.
Out of everything here, this is a great idea. All players need to know about this, not just those of us who are active in the forums. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
Moph
Minmatar Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:21:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Moph on 09/02/2007 21:20:27 Everyone arguing how the bpo's arent worth much... the reason is that it will be less noticed than if they were hac bpo's..
i think ccp should handle t20's case with the community's interests in mind. However i say that t20 should be fired due to ccp stating before that any interferance by a dev/gm will not be tolerated
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dokkillo
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:21:00 -
[136]
Edited by: dokkillo on 09/02/2007 21:22:51 this is my third year in Eve, i have 2 accounts and I own a spanish eve fansite, I have a lot of EON magazines, and i was thinking to go to next Fanfest (i must go to london first and later to iceland.. thats is much money) but now i am very sad....
Because in this moment i am not sure if trust or not in CCP..
I feel all this i played, all these wars, all these political affairs are false.. i dont know.. i feel bad...
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Laendra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:21:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
How much similar activity is going on that we don't know about? This one case gets revealed, and CCP, after being dragged hesitantly through the mud, reaches out with a horrible reaction.
How do we know that this isn't continuing to happen elsewhere in the universe? What faith are now supposed to have in CCP's watchguarding abilities?
How are we supposed to trust the fact that CCP isn't sweeping other, lesser-known "crimes" under the rug as well?
You honestly can't see why he was banned? Regardless of his intentions, he hurt the community. He had to know that his actions would hurt the community as a whole. And he revealed Dev player accounts, knowingly, even those that were not involved in any wrongdoing, ******* those devs over in the process. For those actions alone, he should be perma-banned.
One could draw up numerous r/l comparisons here, but to summarize...the ends do not justify the means....ever. ------------------- |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:21:00 -
[138]
Originally by: ZaKma While t20 did something he shouldn't have done, I really hope he doesn't get fired. He's been with the community for a long time.
It's not like the BPO's made some huge difference in terms of isk or advantage or anything. It's wrong of course, but nothing staggering.
QFE!
I love the work of T20 very much! Just as I love the work and dedication of the other devs! Even if what he did was wrong, it is easy to take a few steps wrong now and then. So I hope T20 will stay with us!
I want to return the words from some devs made in a post a long time ago. I cant find the post but it was about CCP accepting the appology from a player member from Las Vegas who was part of the people who arranged the gathering there. It takes some solid brass balls to come up with the appology.
I think we all in the best game spirit should accept his appology and continue with the game! T20! You have proved your dedication many time to EVE online! Now I return the dedication for you the devs! For me, this is now history! And I hope the others view it the same way as me!!
Niccolado
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:21:00 -
[139]
The people supporting the hacker are even worse. shame on you and shame on ccp for not relaying they caught a cheating dev when they actually caught him. |
Shanzem
DarkStar 1
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:22:00 -
[140]
Warned time and time again.
wounder if all of the BoB members knew?
oh and i hope your sacking T20. -------------------------------------------
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:22:00 -
[141]
Edited by: LUGAL MOP''N''GLO on 09/02/2007 21:20:30 I could give a crap less how long T20 has been working for CCP. He stole from CCP and he essentially stole from 140,000 people playing this game.
And to those people saying... "Those T2 BPO's aren't even that good"
I'd love to have any T2 bpo - contract it to me if it sux so bad. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:23:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Sinlare The people supporting the hacker are even worse. shame on you and shame on ccp for not relaying they caught a cheating dev when they actually caught him.
Like using social engineering to access out of game assets (forums/ts) it's not the same thing ? (*hint* kevin mitnick *hint*).
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:23:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Tea Spoon Just removing the BPO's is a very lenient punishment, especially as the ones having had the benefit of having them all this time have a chance of getting them back. Both t20 and Hellmar hope very much this will be the end of this affair but I doubt that is the case.
By handing out items of such vast importance in the game the balance has been greatly disturbed, and the actions taken do very little to rectify this. I stand a good chance of being blown up in the near future by the Spike L ammo that exists only because of the fraudulent actions taken in the past and any losses caused by this should be petitionable as an exploit.
I have to agree with this. Perhaps the parties who recieved the fraudulent BPO should be ineligible to get it back? just a thought. ------------------------------------
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SamuraiJack
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:23:00 -
[144]
one wonders about the extra complexes in delve getting looked at now?
at least the bpos issue is sorted.
SJ. CLS Director =-
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Illistar DeathWing
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:23:00 -
[145]
Huh... Well, I don't know what else to say other then express my sadness. It bad enough that this happend but it had to have happend in an allience like bob? I have no ill feelings towards them but seriously they didn't need the help, nor the funds, they already dominate eve for the most part.
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Gummi
The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:23:00 -
[146]
CCP+BOB pushed, but the community pushed back, now thats a f****** Pendulum.
I feel sorry for kieron as he got a lot of flack as he posted clearly without all the facts. It's a dark day indeed, but we will get over it.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:24:00 -
[147]
It is simple:
devs should not play this game. that is what the TEST SERVER is for.
CCP - all your saying here is that your going to plug the leaks that allowed us to find out in the first place.
Next time it happens, and there is no way for the public to know, you will just get away with it, is that the way it works around here?
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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FnkyTwn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:24:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Hopefully Kugutsumen is able to get to the bottom of it because apparently CCP aren't willing to without articles being written up on major gaming news sites. BluesNews, ShackNews, Slashdot, FiringSquad, Razorwire Investigation and Razorwire Conclusion, WarCry, MMORPG.com, MarkovForums, Kotaku, The Inquirer
I don't care if T20 came up with the original idea for EVE, he needs to be FIRED. He needs to lose his job so that others within CCP and even at other gaming companies understand just how serious an issue this is. Hopefully CCP doesn't just blow off 150k registered customers in favor of one corrupt and immoral developer, unless of course this problem runs a lot deeper than T20 alone.
The proceeds BoD was able to generate from that Sabre BPO would have been enormous over the time that they had it; it was a cornerstone of other BPO purchases and fuel for the fleets that destroyed ASCN. T20 had a direct and intentionally malicious hand in the dismantling of one of the largest corporations in the game. I hope the Titan memorial reflects that.
Hopefully BoB will be able to gracefully climb down off their high horse now as i'd imagine most of their members had zero knowledge of these events and that they should hold their management directly responsible for their tremendous loss of e-honor today.
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Helmut 314
Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:24:00 -
[149]
The BPO are of little concern, their value isnt so great as to make any real difference for a corp of Reikokus size. It does put the spotlight on the big problem : corp and alliance loyalty of players that happen to be devs. Unless you have been involved in alliance politics on some level or have run a corp I dont think you realize how important the bonds between people in Eve are. Its what keeps things going and also what makes alliances collapse. Its also one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games.
The statement from T20 leaves a lingering thought in my head that I dont think will ever go away : If his corpmates were so important that he spawned 30B+ of BPO risking his employment and then left them to them, whats to say that this is the only advantage he gave them, asked for or not ? Stuff thats NOT traceable via server logs...
________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:24:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Milena Marich Referee's don't play on a football team. Referee's don't play on a football team. How hard is to understand that?
Check this out: Link removed as content is against the EVE Forum Rules - Serathu ([email protected])
It just gets bigger and bigger.
The content that is against the EVE forum rules just happened to be the reason that this whole mess got uncovered. So why is that content against the rules anyway? Because if we're going to go that way, you might as well make links to the gaming sites and slashdot that carried the news about this whole dev-induced mess "against the rules" as well.
Seems CCP's endeavour in China has taught them the art of censorship. ...Free Kugutsumen... |
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Tetsujin
Caldari Band of Brosefs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:26:00 -
[151]
It is sad that we had to break your forum rules to bring to light accusations that ended up proving true.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:27:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: ZaKma While t20 did something he shouldn't have done, I really hope he doesn't get fired. He's been with the community for a long time.
It's not like the BPO's made some huge difference in terms of isk or advantage or anything. It's wrong of course, but nothing staggering.
QFE!
I love the work of T20 very much! Just as I love the work and dedication of the other devs! Even if what he did was wrong, it is easy to take a few steps wrong now and then. So I hope T20 will stay with us!
I want to return the words from some devs made in a post a long time ago. I cant find the post but it was about CCP accepting the appology from a player member from Las Vegas who was part of the people who arranged the gathering there. It takes some solid brass balls to come up with the appology.
I think we all in the best game spirit should accept his appology and continue with the game! T20! You have proved your dedication many time to EVE online! Now I return the dedication for you the devs! For me, this is now history! And I hope the others view it the same way as me!!
Niccolado
ABSOLUTELY NOT! he lied, cheated and STOLE. he needs to be sent PACKING.
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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b0xor
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:27:00 -
[153]
This is bull****!
Those BPOs are crap. No one would risk their job over some crappy ammo BPOs.
This is nothing but a smokescreen to try and cover up something bigger.
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Cedori
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:27:00 -
[154]
Yes, shame on those damn whistleblowers who worked for the Tobacco companies. How dare they come out with evidence of wrong doing.
Shame on the FBI guy who turned out to be "Deep Throat", didn't he know he was supposed to support the president without question?
etc, etc, etc.
Sure it's just a game, nobody died from this, and I hope T20 keeps his job, we've all had moments of weakness/stupidity before, we're human. But at the same time, how is what Kung did ANY different then the whistleblowers of the real world? He's accusations hurt the community? No! His accusations brought to light something that was ALREADY Hurting the community. The old adage is as true today, as it was 100 years ago. "Don't rock the boat, especially if you're sitting in it". He found a wrong, and tried to correct it. This happened over 6 MONTHS ago, and somehow, it took his posting of accusations to get any kind of response, and to correct that wrong.
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Susan Mathers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:27:00 -
[155]
Bob, for a little while, needs to be treated differently.
1) If there is a situation that can be classified as "boarderline", you need to take the hard line. You cannot show any appearance of favorites 2) If you do make a ruleing for/against Bob, you need to make it public, at least for now.
I'm sorry if I'm picking on Bob, as their may be other situations in other alliances, but it has been proven that Bob got an unfair advantage from T20. CCP needs to make sure that it is ABSOLUTELY clear that they are not in any way helping one Alliance over another
All GM's need to realize that we are in a new era of Eve. The trust was broken, we need to learn to trust CCP again..
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TOTALHELLDEATH
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[156]
Once again Kugutsumen done a aewesome job, big thanks to you i hope you will continue your work.
And shame on BOB we all see again that the only way they can play is to lie and to cheat
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SNeAkYbRiT
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[157]
I dont give a damn if the BPO's were that good or not....the point is they got those BPO's via cheating.
Sorry but T20 defrauded me and many more, I pay for this game and now I find one of the DEVS gave CCP's favourite Alliances free T2 BPO's and he still has a job! WOOT!!!!!! this is not exceptable u need to be sacked and removed, I personnally don't trust and will not trust someone that needs to CHEAT! even if they do apologise, you did wrong.
For the leaders of BoB they should have their accounts permabanned! CHEATS!!!! I feel sorry for all the members in BoB that didnt know any of this and now have to play under the corp that was caught CHEATING!!!!
For all you BoB members that slagged the members off in the other thread LOL you look foolish now!
Unban the guy who uncovered this straight away and CCP stop trying to cover stuff up, start to be honest and open, we are you bread and butter and dont forget it.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Helmut 314
The statement from T20 leaves a lingering thought in my head that I dont think will ever go away : If his corpmates were so important that he spawned 30B+ of BPO risking his employment and then left them to them, whats to say that this is the only advantage he gave them, asked for or not ? Stuff thats NOT traceable via server logs...
QFT ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Razin
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[159]
t20, I'll forgive you if you fix the Fan Submissions section of this site. I haven't been able to see those pictures for a year!
Oh, hell, I'll forgive you anyway. ...
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dodge2005
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[160]
My question is where did the goods go for the print and the isk, did he sell them cheap or give them to an allaince, if so and theres stock left these too should be removed from the game. imho
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Manus Ghostface
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:28:00 -
[161]
DBP buying a character or getting it gratis, Sirmolle posting personal info...this we won't see information, nor should we according to how client account issues are handled. If guilty we should see them quietly disappear, or someone from Bob announcing it, but CCP should maintain their policy on account issues being between them and the account owner.
But some issues that still need addressing in a bullet point yeah or ney manner by ccp.
1. T20's admission of what bpos he returned confirm he was the character who managed the RKK capital fleet. If so, he had to be aware of the cynonet alt sharing scheme, will action be taken on this and account sharing viololations in general. If not, then EULA changes need to be made to clarify or modify policy.
2. Can we be confident of impartiality in tournaments? Recent offsite evidence points pretty well to recent BOB membership of the dev who is in charge of these events. The idea of a rules council for made me happier, but final decisions would be in the hands of someone with bias.
3. Movement of devs and gms in warzones in suspicious manners need to be tracked. It does seem very odd to have a moon to moon jumping gm ship right before a major offensive.
4. The "Internal Affairs" group needs a email or reporting mechanism independent of the moderators, and monitored by more than one person with logs kept of deleted items. One cat sitting on the barrel of cream will not improve this process.
5. Serious thought on changing or restarting the t2 process needs to be done, if there is evidence that someone was able to do this and get away with it, then faith in the whole system is shattered. How do we know that other cases don't exist.
Ball is in your court, make us believers, but don't try and stagedive and find out the crowd has moved away.
That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick. - Lycurgus |
Mortharian
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:29:00 -
[162]
This dev needs to be fired. No ifs, ands, or buts. And if he is NOT fired, I am sure there will be some serious repercussions from the playerbase of EVE. Financial repercussions.
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Rusla
Significant Figures
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:29:00 -
[163]
After reading the responses I'm not even sure that CCP have understood the underlying problem. Sure, BoB got some BPOs illegally and they're going to lose them, but there's a whiff of corruption in the air. CCPs response, although quite explicit in the areas they do cover are not going to alleviate the perception that a lot of players, myself included, have about CCPs involvement with the most powerful alliance in the game.
To have 5 members of the CCP dev team playing together in one of the most powerful corps in Eve, (even if there is nothing underhand going on behind the scenes) will always leave them open to criticism, as the perception of corruption is now so great within the Eve Community.
You say that the devs must play the game. Fair enough, they must. But they should not be in a position where they can be perceived to swing political landscape. IMO, CCP should not allow more than 1 dev to play in any alliance, and while they do, the whiff of corruption will never go away.
Even on these forums, many's the time I've been reading posts that involve BoB in some way. I've lost count of the times that said posts have disappeared into thin air. The overall perception within the community is that BoB own the game and the forums, and that is simply unacceptable.
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Voltaire Leriel
Minmatar BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:29:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 09/02/2007 21:33:23 Unforgiveable, and disgrace to this game and it's community.
I just hope that this is truly the only instance thusfar of wrongdoing, and I honestly doubt it will be the last.
BoB by conventional makes a formidable enemy, and some cheating isn't what keeps them on top, its a hardworking and dedicated staff of players that keeps BoB at the head of a uni-polar world.
But I also know that Band of Brothers will do anything to stay on top, anything. That is how they play the game, and that is why they are so powerful.
In the end, it will be thier downfall. _________________________________________________________
BIG Corporation Website |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:30:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Luthien Firefoot Seems pretty simple to me:
1) Fraud, committed by an employee is gross misconduct and should therefore result in termination of employment.
2) This is probably just the tip of the iceberg and so it's more than reasonable to assume that BOB has benefitted in the billions of isk, it's not so difficult to see now how they manage to beat the rest of EVE, is it?
3) No-one could make me believe that there are players within BOB who knew nothing about this, you're telling me that a dev did this and never spoke of it to anyone? Not once on ts? Not after a few beers? Not mentioned to the ppl building / copying the bpos? OFC he did and so whatever opinion we may have of the isk benefit to BOB, they are tainted by this and something more should be done to investigate them.
4) I am glad that ccp had the guts to be honest and reveal this, it may be late, it most certainly isn't the full story or the resolution, but it's a start.
Even so, the players in BoB didnt do anything illegal. Someone in game, who was not a dev char gave them bpo's to use, and they used em. RKK might have known, sure, but if someone tells you they are cheating, and they are a dev, Morally you maybe shouldnt take the BPO's but there is nothing illegal about thier actions.
Moral =/= Legal __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:30:00 -
[166]
Looking at t20 dev blog...
Quote:
Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have.
Even if he did not pass on information as such, wouldn't you think that someone with his in-depth knowledge of the game in charge of something as insignificant as a capital fleet could make some kind of difference (in other words: an unfair advantage)?
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Itcharo Wu
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:31:00 -
[167]
Its bad enough that Devs even play this game as a part of big allies (I wouldn't mind them freelancing) but that just made me think if I should continue playing EVE at all.
Yes, I am having a lot of fun, yes, EVE is a great game. But knowing that the one's I am fighting probably get the help of Devs makes me sad.
I too had his problem, in a much smaller scale. I created and run a browser-based RPG and I did also have problems with admins and moderators abusing their powers ingame so I had to ban them altogether from playing the live version.
I urge CCP to do the same and change your policy.
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Caius LiviusCerso
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:31:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Caius LiviusCerso on 09/02/2007 21:28:41 removed for error
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:31:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: ZaKma While t20 did something he shouldn't have done, I really hope he doesn't get fired. He's been with the community for a long time.
It's not like the BPO's made some huge difference in terms of isk or advantage or anything. It's wrong of course, but nothing staggering.
QFE!
I love the work of T20 very much! Just as I love the work and dedication of the other devs! Even if what he did was wrong, it is easy to take a few steps wrong now and then. So I hope T20 will stay with us!
I want to return the words from some devs made in a post a long time ago. I cant find the post but it was about CCP accepting the appology from a player member from Las Vegas who was part of the people who arranged the gathering there. It takes some solid brass balls to come up with the appology.
I think we all in the best game spirit should accept his appology and continue with the game! T20! You have proved your dedication many time to EVE online! Now I return the dedication for you the devs! For me, this is now history! And I hope the others view it the same way as me!!
Niccolado
ABSOLUTELY NOT! he lied, cheated and STOLE. he needs to be sent PACKING.
Well, I think you are wrong.
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Sebastien LeReparteur
Minmatar V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[170]
All Dev accounts should be named and kept as is.
Hell make them Jovian as far as I care and prevent them to gain acces to any corp then the DevCORP.
Now if they wanna power trip go away be my guest. And when we are fed up with moderation and nerfings we can ALL hunt them down and camp them until they have 0 skills left.
I admit Devs have to play the game but DEVS should not be allowed to play within major alliances or corp.
HUMANS ARE HUMANS, you guys have no perfect sence of honor it is an "IMPOSIBILITY". You say there is no I WIN button but looks like being a DEV is one.
I say make devs account know and in a segregated corp. This would actualy make the EVEvers even funnier and give BOB something worth while to fight.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[171]
WHAT! HE THROWS CCP'S REP TO THE GUTTER, the whole community probably hates him right now and wont ever trust him again.
yet he doesnt get fired? lol
ccp realise every gaming website and magazine in the world are likely to write an article about this right? there going to believe everything on a certain persons website that has been posted. he done damage to ccp that will never ever be repaired at the very least he should never be allowed to play the game as a normal player
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[172]
I am sad. I read blog by Kugutswhatever his name is.
He should get his accounts back. Molle and his directors and CEOs should be banned, because noone sane would believe after all those messages revealed to us that they didn't know about all this ****. You can't reduce damage to other hard working ppl that they all did. You can't take all the info they received about all things (exploits and what not) that they got.
They swapped accounts and are still doing it. Molle posted real life info about a person.
BOB area got 11 good new complexes in the new patch, when other regions got what 4 or 5?
BOB suddenly moved to Delve once before even if they weren't loosing war, and some of them said they got info that there'll be new rich NPCs around there.
This is a **** day for me who trusted CCP and believed in EVE as something we are building together.
Looks like BOD were building themselves a hymn for their egos. The rest of us were idiots mining veldspar and building their first apoc.
I will be relaying all this info to my friends in all Gaming magazines in Croatia that I know of. Let people see the truth YOU ADMITTED to.
What an idiot I was when I recommended to all my friends that Eve is the best game, and CCP were the top of the companies for their caring for their players, for integrity, and what not..
How happy I was to see 30K persisten player limit reached. I read all blogs and dev reports wishing for the new stuff to come tomorrow. Can you believe I even wanted to come to Funfest??? I hope you won't do it next year. Realy. I felt happy being a part of OUR dream. Hell, had you made an IPO for stocks, I'd buy a lot.
I feel bile rising now. And anger. FOR YOU LYING TO US.
EVE TV with you CCP answering OUR questions would be the only right thing to do. If even that.
"No CCP employees are within BOB".
Yeah, right. I hate cheaters. They are lower then scum. --------------
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[173]
Heck, I'm a sysadmin in real life. If I were to put my own server in a rack, and avoid the billing system by not putting it in, and keeping people in the dark about what that box is for, even if it doesn't cost all that much, I still get fired on the spot if anyone would find out.
So yeah, sorry to see someone lose their job, but as Hellmar stated in his blog, the firing is non-negotiable. So it's exit t20. It's the only way to go, if t20 gets to stay, it just shows that there's no real intent at CCP to follow their own rules.
Which would lead, undoubtedly, to an even bigger *snip*.
Please don't avoid the profanity filter - Serathu ([email protected])
...Free Kugutsumen... |
GoodbyeKitty
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[174]
Quote: As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which I’m truly sorry.
no
how dare you ??
you still want me to pay for this ??
how about you fix lag instead of manipulating the game like that ??
SHAME ON YOU |
Weka Dart
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:32:00 -
[175]
I keep reading that ccp / eve is up for this award and that award from said international game institute etc..
I can understand it because you have a brilliant game.
I wonder if allowing a single player faction to control your game with the help of developers will be viewed by these organisation? Do they know? Will you still win so many awards?
hmmm
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:33:00 -
[176]
I've been on the inside on corporate cover ups and I hate to be the conspiricy theorist but this does to me really look like a case of putting a minor fallguy in the spotlight in exchange for his job security to cover up or detract from bigger issues or offenses.
Tell me if im out of line, but I think we as a comunity are gonna need more than one small confession to really restore faith in the system as it were.
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Ordo Lucius
Buy Loyal Approval
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:34:00 -
[177]
It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
"An idiot always wins. Why? Because he's too stupid to realise when he's lost..." |
Barbicane
Minmatar The Gun Club Zzz
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:34:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
1) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to stay in the same corp for over 6 months (leads to favoritism) 2) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to accept a leadership position in ANY corp/alliance (DEFINATELY a conflict of interest)
QFT! (there were 3) and 4) also but I don't necessarily agree with those)
I don't know any details other than what I read on t20's and Hellmar's devblogs but I hope t20 is banned from participating in the game for the next 2 years. The BPOs he obtained are worth crap today but that doesn't excuse his actions (whatever they may have been). This is a matter of principle and CCP must take action quickly and remain responsive to the community if they want to maintain their credibility.
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Boci
The Legion.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:35:00 -
[179]
I like how everyone is trying to twist this into a BoB issue, when its not a BoB issue, its a control issue for CCP on their employees.
Someone a few pages back was going off on how Rod Blaine was getting angry and posting "we did nothing wrong" if you get called a thief and a liar, and its not true, what would you do?
Just because someone is/was a member of BoB, does NOT mean they are guilty of cheating, does NOT mean they knew this was happening. The fact that it took this long for it to even surface says that very few people knew about it at all, meaning BoB isnt guilty of anything, a few specific pilots could be, and t20 definitely is.
Removing the BPOs was the right thing to do, in game, people wanting the removal of all the items those bpos created, the isk they generated removed, etc etc, are smoking *****. In a community this small, with the amount of money people can make in a year, the number of things bought/sold, it affects EVERYONE. What if through some chain reaction it was determined that the isk you bought that CNR with faction fitting had its first steps in life tied to siad BPOs and it suddenly disappeared cause of it. You did no wrong, why be punished for it.
In the end, stop profiling entire groups of people because of a tag, 10 bucks says 99.99999% of them had no idea.
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Ace'o Spades
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:35:00 -
[180]
This person must be fired immediately to retain any reasonable semblance of a game that is not corrupt to the core.
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Quix
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:35:00 -
[181]
Well the damage is done now, it takes along time to gain a good reputation and a short time to lose one.
Shame really, I had hoped it was all smoke and no fire. Now i'm having difficulty in thinking it stopped at a few T2 BPO's.
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Quutar
Caldari Auraxian Irregulars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:35:00 -
[182]
Is this the end of the investigation? or just the first bit of real information?
Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services. |
Suicide Pill
Blood Money Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:36:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Suicide Pill on 09/02/2007 21:32:24 IÆm truly sadden by the misconduct of T20, the issues raised have forever tarnished CCP how can we ever trust you (CCP) again?
Simply put we can not.
T20 should go IÆm sorry I know you are liked in the community but this is truly an issue that can not and should not be simply forgotten.
SP...
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Jaabaa Prime
M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:36:00 -
[184]
Shocked and stunned.
t20, WTF ????
I've being playing since beta, and, although I am, at times, critical of the servers and certain issues in gameplay, I must say that I had 100% trust in the CCP developers and GMs to be well above any kind of abuse of the game mechanics.
Originally by: "Hilmar" and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts
I can only assume that t20 is no longer an employee of CCP now.
It may have only been "a few T2 ammo BPOs", but even one of those can make you an EVE ISK billioner.
It really saddens my heart to read of such events, I can't put into words my disappointment at this situation. --
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Kylania
Gallente Phoenix Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:36:00 -
[185]
I sincerely hope that t20 doesn't loose his job over this. He'd already lost his characters 6 months ago, now the BPOs will be gone. Due to the illegal actions of a hacker, who deserves his ban, other innocent devs will now loose their long time characters due to this insanity that has gripped members of the EVE community.
Lets end this witch hunt and move on with life in EVE. Take off the tin foil hats, dose the torches and get back making ourselves better rather than trying to tear down others. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap | How to Build from a BPO |
Kymlicka
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:36:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Tetsujin It is sad that we had to break your forum rules to bring to light accusations that ended up proving true.
Worse than that, the eve community's oversight on dev conduct COMES FROM SOMEONE WHO HACKS INTO ALLIANCE FORUMS.
It is a sad state of affairs and no amount of mea culpa is going to change that fact.
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Great Guardian
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:36:00 -
[187]
One of my bigger concerns in this is why *exactly* was Kugutsumen banned from the game? Why is the whistle blower the one taking the fall here? Even if the information was "ill gotten"?
None of us would have known about this if not for KUGUTSUMEN!!!
/cheers GG
" I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Hah! Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams, glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments.... will |
Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:37:00 -
[188]
T20 should have his dev rights revoked from TQ for several months.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:38:00 -
[189]
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
That's nice.
I quit.
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Frosties R
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:38:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Frosties R on 09/02/2007 21:35:20 The only thing being confessed to is what is already public domain thanks to the whistleblower. We are supposed to believe nothing else untoward has gone on?
I could cite numerous examples of ... complex placement, unannounced code change & account lock out leading to titan loss, temporory sov claim of POSes leading to loss of sovreignty, repeated node crashes with one aliance always getting back on first, etc, etc .... none of this was the result of "intervention"?
And to the dev who has confessed, you may be a great guy IRL, but you have cheated. If I did anything like this in my job I would be unemployeed and black listed so fast and I would have cause to complain. If there is no punishment there is no deterent.
CCP I love your game but there are limits.
<bah should have been posted with my main Jiks>
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:38:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Sinlare on 09/02/2007 21:35:43 double |
Lars Erlkonig
Caldari Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:38:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Lars Erlkonig on 09/02/2007 21:36:46 Edited by: Lars Erlkonig on 09/02/2007 21:36:18
Originally by: Adam C Edited by: Adam C on 09/02/2007 20:38:51 though you havent really enlightened* us on you losing your playing charactor we know from previous blogs that you most likely did lose the one in rkk.
how will the developers whom lost their playing charactors* play the game now? under closer scrutiny admittingly, anything else?
What are the devs going to do about my in game friends that have stopped playing over this? I'm sorry if I find it hard to cry over their loss of ingame friends due to malfeasance while on the job, while they continue to enjoy the game for free. CCP, if you want to experince the game, try it from the real player side of things for a chance. Take a paid sabbatical to play for a month or 2 then go back to being a dev. Play without knowing what the rest of your co-workers are doing, what bugs are currently going on, knowing which alliance knows, has, plans what. We want an even keel and clear guidleines that this isn't going to happen again. You've promised us this once before. How many chances do you need to get things right?
Hilmar:
Quote: As we look to the future...the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts, represents the full extent that we will go to deter dev misconduct.
I'm guessing he kept his job.
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:39:00 -
[193]
Originally by: b0xor This is bull****!
Those BPOs are crap. No one would risk their job over some crappy ammo BPOs.
This is nothing but a smokescreen to try and cover up something bigger.
NEVER A TRUER WORD SPOKEN Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:39:00 -
[194]
t20, I'd like to know why you made the choice to risk your job, your character. To other devs, my condoleances for the loss of your characters. If I were to lose my main while I didn't do anything that would be considered unfair, that would sting. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Bawldeux IV
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Quutar Is this the end of the investigation? or just the first bit of real information?
its smoke being blown up a hole that rarely sees the sun...
As with many coverups, when info is leaked, it is usualy only the tip of the iceberg that the public will see.
CCP staff helped one group destroy another group, and many groups for that matter, and nothing will be done to correct that.
So, is it worth it to pay for such a game, where the developers can f over the paying customers by cheating, and nothing is done to make amends to those that had lost so much do to the cheating?
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Liet Traep
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[196]
The part of this that bothers me the most is that their have been allegations of cheating within BoB for such a long, long time. And finally cheating is proved but by a 3rd party! This goes back to last June and it's just coming out now because of a hacker. This really bothers me. Have there been other instances of devs and gm's cheating that CCP didn't care enough to follow up on. I've never cheated in Eve. I've never even scammed on escrow. I could have been cheating a year ago just by cozying up to a dev and likely never have gotten caught. I'm not even coherent now. I don't know what to think. http://xs110.xs.to/xs110/06485/BL5_LietTraep.jpg Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo |
Horsefly
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[197]
Couple questions
why was this person not fired? I was under the impression that a blatent cheat by a employee was reason for severe punishment
Also what assurances do we have this wont happen again?
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Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Templer Relleg T20 should have his dev rights revoked from TQ for several months.
He should be fired, not rewarded.
The guy that exposed this needs to get free game time. Whistleblowers should not be punished because some ******** at CCP is upset that he got caught cheating.
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Page Appleton
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[199]
Please try and remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Datsun Achura
Caldari Interstellar Operations Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[200]
Absolutely disgusting.
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:40:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
That's nice.
I quit.
Can I have the Impoc? ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO / Acting Logistics CO Hadean Drive Yards |
Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 -
[202]
Now do something about the GM scouting our POS in 28Y.
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Zachios Primos
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 -
[203]
"and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts, represents the full extent that we will go to deter dev misconduct."
If this is the case, why is t20 still posting devblogs...his ass should be packing.
I am deeply disappointed with these turn of events. In my eye's you're all corrupt. Your Dev team and your company have really let this game, and more importantly your players, down.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 -
[204]
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 -
[205]
Unban the whistle blower!
Fact: HE exposed dev misconduct and forced T20 to admit
Fact: No other allegations have been disproven
Fact: BoB Leadership KNEW about such behavior and still have their accounts.
In all types of work whistle blowers are protected and rewarded for doing the right thing.. this is to prevent corruption. Only the corrupt try to silence the informants.
I think it is time to start writing various gaming sites and magazines about this incident.
CCP has proven that indisputable proof must be levied against them in order to do the right thing. This issue does not end here.
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Ocono
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:42:00 -
[206]
From the official statement:
Quote: ...we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
Within *our* company? Isn't that like leaving the wolves in charge of counting the sheep?
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Karash Amerius
Amarr O.E.C
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:42:00 -
[207]
Video Games are often a mirror of life it seems. So many people are here, in this thread, unknowingly yelling to the world all their insecurities in life. They throb, yell, and bleed virtual tears on how someone is 'robbing' them...in ways that I care not.
All over some 1s and 0s. Binary bits that only represent a dream...a moving peice of artwork that everyone gets to paint. Its a sad commentary on the game and its community...but, it is also just a reflection of life.
Merc Blog |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:42:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
It's not about the BPO's as in their value. It's in the inherent trust we, as players, place in CCP to provide for us a game that we enjoy. We pay CCP for that. If CCP then turns around and breaks the trust, that pretty much comes down to us players being scammed by the very entity we pay a monthly fee.
I don't know where you're from, but I doubt you enjoy paying $15 every month to someone who might, or might not, scam you. When the trust is gone, there's something seriously wrong.
CCP needs to tread very carefully right now. ...Free Kugutsumen... |
Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:43:00 -
[209]
Wow.
I have to admit, I was skeptical, but I didn't see this coming.
Certainly sheds a new light on all those members of BoB who flipped out whenever someone implied that there might be something a little illigitimate going on.
It's quite funny actually, I remember saying in a thread in which BoB and ASCN were accusing each other of haxing/cheating/humping penguins that eveyone should stfu until someone actually has evidence.
Well looks like something like that happened, here is evidence (although for something a bit different).
Seriosly dissapointing to see something like this happen after you have been playing the game for 3 and a half years :/
And the fact is that if kugutsumen hadn't exposed this in the way he did we would know nothing about it. That just makes it worse.
What the ****. -----------------
Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
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Mrs Amadeus
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:44:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
This is not the first incident of GM misconduct.
Admitting to something after being proven guilty should garner no respect.
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Kerbear
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:44:00 -
[211]
funny how all the bpo are crap other than the sabre have lost faith in the game alot now and have been playing for a very long time and that guy should be sacked char deleted and isk tooken from the plp making it and i always thought bob where good seems they have got where they are through cheaten just think with a dev on ur side u can achive what u want
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:44:00 -
[212]
Whoa - just realised something.
CCP knew about this last June. Okay, so they decided not to sack T20 on the spot which is almost certainly the wrong decision looking from outside but leave that aside for a moment.
If I read this correctly, CCP knew those bpo's were fraudulently obtained but LEFT THEM IN THE GAME UNTIL NOW?
One cheating dev, well, that's an individual and these things happen. What concerns me is letting his cheats stay in the game then, and trying to cover up the problem now. Well, that and the sheer hypocrisy of banning Kug for blowing the whistle on something you already knew had happened.
Also interesting that this "special unit" started, ooh, 4 weeks ago maybe? Would that be coincidental timing I wonder? |
Kerdrak
Amarr 3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:44:00 -
[213]
Originally by: t20
As you might have read and heard, there were recently some allegations posted regarding developer misconduct that basically come down to:
* Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have. * Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics. * Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players.
All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one.
No, all points are true but you only have declared one because log exists :). Point 1 is logically true... ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:45:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
It's not about the BPO's as in their value. It's in the inherent trust we, as players, place in CCP to provide for us a game that we enjoy. We pay CCP for that. If CCP then turns around and breaks the trust, that pretty much comes down to us players being scammed by the very entity we pay a monthly fee.
I don't know where you're from, but I doubt you enjoy paying $15 every month to someone who might, or might not, scam you. When the trust is gone, there's something seriously wrong.
CCP needs to tread very carefully right now.
I certainly wont ever trust your company, supporting illegal actions. succes ermee. |
NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:46:00 -
[215]
How *not* to satisfy your customers.
1. Delete and ban anyone making accusations of wrongdoing
2. Deny deny deny
3. Launch an "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
4. Close investigation, admit to one small insignificant problem
5. Deny deny deny
6. Lock and/or delete further discussion of the accusations
7. Reopen the "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
8. Close investigation, admit to a bit bigger problem
9. Deny deny deny
10. To be continued.....
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Rippey
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:46:00 -
[216]
Kugutsumen deserves a public apology and his account back. The ones within BoB leadership should have the frickin balls to stand up and tell the truth of what they knew and didn't knew. Right know they're just sitting quiet hoping for this to blow over.
Oh, and if t20 would've been one of my employess, he'd have a fine, red boot print glued to his ass. Don't even want to think of the economical and customer damage he's caused already.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:46:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Great Guardian One of my bigger concerns in this is why *exactly* was Kugutsumen banned from the game? Why is the whistle blower the one taking the fall here? Even if the information was "ill gotten"?
None of us would have known about this if not for KUGUTSUMEN!!!
/cheers GG
He actually got banned due to this fun clause in the EULA that pretty much boils down to "you can be banned for whatever reason, without explanation, at any time" -- the real reason, in my opinion, is quite obvious.
I'll just restate: Free Kugutsumen. Unban his accounts. No need to apologise to him, but just unbanning him would go a long way to showing that CCP as an entity does actually still deserve our trust and sympathy.
...Free Kugutsumen... |
Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:47:00 -
[218]
to start with T20 should come 100% clean about everything even the account sharing and ebaying in RKK also and name names.
we know the name but if he has any spine at all he will name then for the record so all those accounts can be properly banned. we know he was in charge of RKK's capital fleet and had intimate knowledge of their cynonet and account sharing for that cynonet.
also Sirmolle should have all his accounts banned for posting a persons RL name and adress on these forums.
you still got a long way to go before you have cleaned up in your own house CCP.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:48:00 -
[219]
First impressions are the following:
1) Its nice that CCP came out and admitted something that they could have hidden.
2) The fact that they banned the person who brought all of this to light and are apparently not firing an admittedly corrupt employee absolutely reeks of evasion through admittance.
CCP needs to be 100% transparent about exactly what happened and how. That this is the only thing to have been addressed, and that it involves a developer really indicates to me that alot is being hidden from us.
There are far more pervasive issues existing within all of ISD that are not even hinted at by either blog post. The fact that the most obvious, pervasive and probably the most prevalent of all of the issues brought to light and CCP's treatment of the person who was responsible for all fo this leads me almost inescapably to the conclusion that much is still being hiden from us and that the so called "commitment" is highly disinenguous.
In order to win back my trust (I can hardly speak for the community), CCP needs to get rid of t20 (if this is not being done the purported gravity with which you view this corruption cannot be taken seriously), develop a transparent process for dealing with these issues (starting by telling us exactly what happened), unban the accounts of the player who allowed all of this to happen, and deal with the pervasive cheating, minor or not, that exsits within the ranks of the player volunteer core (I need make no specific accusations, but everyone who is even passingly familiar with the subject can't deny that there is a serious problem without lying).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:48:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
CCP's reputation as a professional company is not worthless.
Nor is the financial impact this person's incompetence (negligence? lies? deception? corruption?) will have on the company.
How do you think word of mouth from the playerbase will be about EVE after this? Or about CCP?
Just imagine how this episode (and it isn't over; I do believe a lot is being covered up here) is going to effect future subscription numbers.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:48:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Mrs Amadeus
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
This is not the first incident of GM misconduct.
Admitting to something after being proven guilty should garner no respect.
What he did does not garner respect. He should get a warning for what he have done. But this whitch hunt have to end too!
This is a game for **** sake! Its not the end of the world! And as I said, it did not affect the player mass as a whole! I say let this pass!
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:49:00 -
[222]
I have a few unanswered question about these two statements.
1)If Hilmar did not deal with the incident at the time who did? Was Hilmar notfied about it, somthing this serious should go to the CEO of the company and no one else.
2)Assurances about future conduct of all Devs in game should be highly and strickly monitored, this does not only include their ingame chars, but about a thing that is much harder to trace using server logs, it is favourtism. Certain high ranking charachters in certain alliances have been and as far as I can see it, will always get advance knowledge and consultation about future events in game.....this is not imo acceptable.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:49:00 -
[223]
Originally by: NATMav How *not* to satisfy your customers.
1. Delete and ban anyone making accusations of wrongdoing
2. Deny deny deny
3. Launch an "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
4. Close investigation, admit to one small insignificant problem
5. Deny deny deny
6. Lock and/or delete further discussion of the accusations
7. Reopen the "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
8. Close investigation, admit to a bit bigger problem
9. Deny deny deny
10. To be continued.....
This is depressingly accruate and its a better explanation of why I am 100% possitive that this is only the tip of the iceberg.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:49:00 -
[224]
The thing that REALLY annoys me is that in Eve it's a real grind and struggle to try and attain goals at the expense of your social time. Granted that social time has been spent in what I thought was worthy based on what I thought was a level playing field.
The T2 lottery has already shattered the level playing field,,, this makes the T2 lottery look like a fools escapade.
Hope and expectation in a game can make the game,,, there's something to play for.
I now question if there is anything to play for,,, should I suck ass like the fan boys on the forums ? Perhaps this brings new light on the posts of exhorting Eve even in the worst of times and those lambasting those complaining about Eve playability.
It makes me REALLY ****ed off in the light and knowledge that to play in 0.0 you need ISK,,, ISK which is and endless stream to a Dev - what else has been done ???
Eve is a database,,, existing data can be moved about and terminated accounts could very well have resources moved of syphoned off,,,
I don't trust CCP and I don't trust this is the end of the story.
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Kalimac Brandagamba
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:50:00 -
[225]
Originally by: hellmar
A pivotal case was uncovered last summer during a routine investigation of developer accounts. Unfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions.
You knew about this since last summer but did nothing? You didn't remove the BPOs? You tried to deny it until now?
So, what else do you know?
Kal
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Bawldeux IV
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:50:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Karash Amerius Video Games are often a mirror of life it seems. So many people are here, in this thread, unknowingly yelling to the world all their insecurities in life. They throb, yell, and bleed virtual tears on how someone is 'robbing' them...in ways that I care not.
All over some 1s and 0s. Binary bits that only represent a dream...a moving peice of artwork that everyone gets to paint. Its a sad commentary on the game and its community...but, it is also just a reflection of life.
it is a reflection of a corrupt company that f's over its customers.
ccp != trusted
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SamuraiJack
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:50:00 -
[227]
Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying. SJ. CLS Director =-
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:50:00 -
[228]
T20 must be fired and perma-banned.
Also, I find the whole tone of "Help us put this behind us" to be wrong. This should not be forgotten, it should be used as an example of what happens when things go bad. CCP and any MMO company should be constantly on guard against corruption. The culture of secrecy that they foster does no good at all. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Mandow
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:50:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Mandow on 09/02/2007 21:49:06 Edited by: Mandow on 09/02/2007 21:48:12 This is a travesty.
t20 needs to go.
An actual investigation needs to be made and CCP needs to not sweep this under the rug like they are doing.
Allegations against certain corporations need to be addressed and not forgotten as a single corrupt CCP employee falls on his sword.
CCP, you can not just forget about this incident and forgoe a real indepth investigation. Players had the information, knew about the Dev link, the BPOs and took advantage of this fact. It is unacceptable for you to do nothing.
It is especially vexxing because CCP is directly supporting an individual group at the expense of everyone else. Your company's integrety, image and ability to be taken seriously is being destroyed due to your own incompetence.
Consider this notice of 13 paid accounts being closed down as they run out due to your corruption and inability to actual care about the game.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:51:00 -
[230]
Dear CCP
Your internal affair unit seems to rely on tips from players to be able to find anything , will I too be banned if I report something? Will they ever be able to find something on their own? you'll never jump alone |
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:51:00 -
[231]
CCP keeps harping about how they've taken steps to keep devs from misbehaving in the future. That's all well and good, and what's done is what's done... but just because it's hard to quantify the material advantage created from cheating the playerbase, that doesn't mean that anyone who benefited from such cheating should be allowed to retain one single bit of their ill-gotten gains.
Confiscating the BPOs is quite simply not enough. Saying 'mea culpa' or 'I'm terribly sorry to have screwed everyone else over' isn't enough.
CCP, you cannot expect the playerbase to accept that someone who cheats can still retain the rewards gained from such behavior. Removing the BPOs only stops this incident of cheating from continuing... there is still the matter of all the rewards received from being able to use and sell those items.
You have to make this right... and saying "oops, we'll do bettah!" is not enough.
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Zothike
RABBLE-RABBLE
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:51:00 -
[232]
strange... 6 page about BoB and near no BoB answer (out of the hidden alt of course... good 'bravado' demo again)
poor T20 it is of course a smokescreen and t20 is the sacrificied fuse
Kungustmen (or wathever his name should have account(s) back + compensation
and what about the dommage done to 'honest' players , do you remember Fountain Alliance? ASCN? (ex ascn myself yes) what about my hauler with wcs full of noxcium on the way to empire blowed up by a BoB sabre ?
It's not enought (by far)
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:51:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Sinlare on 09/02/2007 21:48:07
Originally by: SamuraiJack Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying.
You're just bitter that you lost Samurai, get over yourself. You're a nobody and you screaming murder won't change that. |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:51:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Lucre Whoa - just realised something.
CCP knew about this last June. Okay, so they decided not to sack T20 on the spot which is almost certainly the wrong decision looking from outside but leave that aside for a moment.
If I read this correctly, CCP knew those bpo's were fraudulently obtained but LEFT THEM IN THE GAME UNTIL NOW?
I'd actually love to know the reason why that decision was made. The dev blog wasn't exactly clear on that. It might help if the reasoning behind this decision were also posted.
We don't need to know the nitty gritty, just the "why".
...Free Kugutsumen... |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:52:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Sinlare
I certainly wont ever trust your company, supporting illegal actions. succes ermee.
I wouldn't want you as a customer anyway :) De mazzel! ...Free Kugutsumen... |
ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:52:00 -
[236]
This who affair makes me sorry.
t20's employment should be terminated sorry but rules are rules no one should be exempt CCP's made its position clear on stuff like numerous time, instant non-negotiable termination of employees contract. t20 knew this and chose to break those rules an apology though thoughtful is slightly pointless, also if CCP fails to follow its own policy it will leave a legal gap if it ever decides to sack an other employee for these kind of actions in the future.
BOB wether they did or did not knowingly participate or benefit from t20's actions this is what you will soley be remembered for from this point on. Every victory or unusual circumstance that BoB is involved or has been involved with over time will now be a focus of doubt for the integrity of BoB and CCP.
CCP a lot of people have lost faith in you now but the ball is in your court and you can do something about it visibly and quickly to stem and negative affects. But what ever you do, do it quickly I've seen similar things happen in other MMO's most of the time they went into a position where they were making a loss on the product very soon after said incidents.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
Ace Frehley
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:52:00 -
[237]
I just forgot to add, as I seen other already mention it.. You sending t20 to hell to cover up more, sacrifising t20 to the wolfs, hopeing the wolfpack will be satisfied? Basic company knowledge just tells us you are trying to save/cover up what is left. Gonna say it nice and easy: PUT ALL THE CARDS ON THE TABLE NOW!! Or you will have more Kug hackers. iŠm not a fan of kug, hell i hated his topics, but it is sadly it took him to discover your problems and not your internal staff. Or you maybe did know and tried to cover up, even worse. Please kick everyone, re-hire the must trusted and hire some competent staff that can do the dirty work as an outside employed, that is workin for the players and community, not ccp or BoB. BOD for the loose
Girljerms is more lethal then a fleet of 1000 Tempests Yeah IŠm nude, IŠm a swede and IŠm armed with bad jokes
[url="http://www. |
Troubadour
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:53:00 -
[238]
Seriously, They were mostly crap BPOs. And you all do not know the circumstances of what happened behind the scenes. I'm sure it's not a black and white issue like many of you claim. All of you that are saying "fire the guy" have no clue what it is like to find competant devs in a software company. Obviously they didn't can him right away for a good reason. I think you should all sit around and wait and listen before you all jump to open your big flap traps screaming "BAN THE DEVS, BAN BOB" just because of your failure to perform against them in game.
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Isidien Madcap
Minmatar Provenance.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:53:00 -
[239]
Thank you for the public apology. There are still many unanswered questions, though I don't know what form of answers people are looking for. How do you respond to the issue of devs possibly providing information? There's no way to prove either answer, and there's also no way for any restitution to take place if someone came forward and said "Yes, I let my corp/alliance know about XXX changes ahead of time" or "Yes, I scouted for my corp in a GM frigate".
No matter what happened, you can't roll back the clock.
I don't have an opinion on whether t20 should or shouldn't be let go; from Hellmar's post, it sounds like that the no-questions-asked policy is new in place from January, and this is an event that happened last June. Back then, his characters were dealt with, but it's entirely possible that noone checked if he left any assets, or that if he did, that it was assumed that they were gained through normal means.
As Hellmar pointed out, EVE has a population the size of Iceland. Yet the governance of that virtual country is ultimately up to a few dozen people with zero oversight.
So, despite it sounding like a drastic measure, I'd say that the only solution that would put fears of such misconduct to rest in the future would be to contract an outside company to a) audit the operation of the Internal Affairs division; and b) provide an escalation path for extremely high profile allegations such as this one.
(Entrepreneurs take note: there are lots of companies providing services for corporate governance or financial auditing; with the growing importance of virtual worlds, this could be an interesting area for someone to move in to.)
Isidien Provenance. www.eve-provenance.com -- looking for more pilots! |
ShuPac the3rd
Amarr Obsidian Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:53:00 -
[240]
Edited by: ShuPac the3rd on 09/02/2007 21:52:26 I really don't see any reason for t20 to stay here anymore. Frankly if I get any chance to work with him in real life I will personaly do anything to remove him from that company!
Yes he made a lot of good things for CCP and EVE (personally I did not see any cuz he did not gave me any tech II BPO), but... hey...you got bank employee who was working for twenty years in a bank and one day out of blue he take couple of millions from bank assests...shall we keep him because he done so may good things last 20 years???
NO!!!! ------- nije mi dozvoljeno stavit sliku koja ja hoću |
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Bratacus
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:54:00 -
[241]
I think CCP should have a very long rethink about Dev/GM interaction within the game at the moment.
If a Dev/gm was not able to join a corp. and was clearly tagged these events would happen less.
Its human nature to try to cheat and help ones friends but as a company you should make it as hard as possible for these events to repeat themselves.
CCP Employees should not be corp. members or owners (Full stop).
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Zachri
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:54:00 -
[242]
So is it time now to ask Lemonde to stand up as well? I mean, you're covering up a big boo boo by admitting a small boo boo. Will it take more external and third party crap liek what we've had to put an end to this?
And before you remove this post, lemonde already is a known glitch as well since months, there's even tons of screenshots of his forum posting oopsies. Talk about a tournament organiser who is now in TAOSP?
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Mickey Mouse
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:54:00 -
[243]
Comon CCP tell us everything and mabye some day we can trust you again as it looks now you guys just throw us some tiny parts of the trouth but we know there is more so just spill it and i hope T20 is cleaning his desk now cause thats what he deserve!!
Im no alt!!! |
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:55:00 -
[244]
They need to be fired and some sort of penalties applied to those they aided. This is ridiculous.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:55:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Xendie to start with T20 should come 100% clean about everything even the account sharing and ebaying in RKK also and name names.
we know the name but if he has any spine at all he will name then for the record so all those accounts can be properly banned. we know he was in charge of RKK's capital fleet and had intimate knowledge of their cynonet and account sharing for that cynonet.
also Sirmolle should have all his accounts banned for posting a persons RL name and adress on these forums.
you still got a long way to go before you have cleaned up in your own house CCP.
Personal matters, with personal accounts get handled privately, not public as stated in the EULA. This thread IS NOT ABOUT ABOUT ITS ABOUT T20.
If you think BoB is cheating, or ebaying, open a petition under exploit, thats why its there. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Lysit Kaune
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[246]
Judging from what I've read T20 hasn't been fired for one of a few possible reasons: 1) It has been known to CCP for sometime what happenned, and was not uncommon enough to be warrent of anything (as long as its hush hush). 2) Kugutsumen was on to a few things, open admition of this now possibly stops any further probing. 3) A situation akin to the start up of Game-Workshop, I gather T20 has been with Eve from the beginning, it may be possible some small, yet significant parts of eve are in part or other small way, copyrighted to him? Leaving would cause problems. Games-workshop had to drop a few story lines and graphics due to developers with copyright leaving.
Full Evidence and Justice is what should be given, it is pointless for things to be found and confirmed and dealt with behind doors. For Justice to work it has to be seen to work, for it its gritty parts.
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Tod Klemp
Gallente K-Street Project
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani Oh, that's just great.
So first there's an attempt to sweep it under the rug, and a lot of denials. Then you ban K.'s accounts, for no real reason.
And now you're telling everyone that yes, there's truth behind it?
Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back.
Yes, breaking laws is nothign at all. Then again, I know why you care so much.
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Ruiryu
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[248]
First off. I think this is just smoke screen, I don't believe thats a complete list no living moron would risk their neck for such low end tech2 bpos.
Secondly no I don't think people should be forgiving, you have betrayed the trust of the player community. You should have the account banned, and should lose your position within CCP. t20 should not be allowed to hold ANY POSITION with in the GM's DEV's, or ISD. These actions should not be over looked, or simply tossed aside b/c he says he is sorry.
He stole something from CCP, and this game community, in any other job you would be fired on the spot and have criminal charges pressed against you. If CCP does any thing less then fire t20 from his postion and ban this account it is an out rage and slap to all of our faces.
Enough with the double standards CCP. It's time to make an example to show us your serious about this game and how things are conducted. In the past year CCP's relationship with it's player has gone down. In the past if the server was to go down for a day or two, you (CCP) would give the players an extra day to play. This has stopped, why?
I will admit that it took some some guts to come out and say what you did t20, but it doesn't excuse your actions in anyway.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Xendie to start with T20 should come 100% clean about everything even the account sharing and ebaying in RKK also and name names.
we know the name but if he has any spine at all he will name then for the record so all those accounts can be properly banned. we know he was in charge of RKK's capital fleet and had intimate knowledge of their cynonet and account sharing for that cynonet.
This is a point that should not be overlooked. There can be no question of EULA violating account sharing within that cynonet. This means at a bare minimum a developer of the game was complicit with breaking the same rules that people have their accounts banned for.
Quote:
also Sirmolle should have all his accounts banned for posting a persons RL name and adress on these forums.
Also should not be overlooked. They ban someone in retaliation for exposing their corruption and do not ban someone who was complicit in their corrupt for doing the same thing?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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asodfjasdlfk
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[250]
Edited by: asodfjasdlfk on 09/02/2007 21:53:20
Originally by: Lucre
If I read this correctly, CCP knew those bpo's were fraudulently obtained but LEFT THEM IN THE GAME UNTIL NOW?
[/quote
This is what I came here to post after reading the blogs. Tell me this can't be true.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[251]
Originally by: ShuPac the3rd I really don't see any reason for t20 to stay here anymore. Frankly if I get any chance to wrok wth him in real life I will personaly do anything to remove him from that company!
Yes he amde a lot for CCP and EVE but... hey...you got Bank employee who was working for twnty years in a bank and suddnely he took couple of millions...shall we keep him because he done so may good things last 20 years???
NO!!!!
If I took 20 million from my company (which my company dont hae..) I would not be just fired. I would be a.) in jail and b.) in the news.
This comparation shows how much this thread have turned sick
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Zachios Primos
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
Excuse me, taking a companies product (in this case bpos) and taking or creating them for your own personal gain is absolutely a firable offense as well as possible legal ramifications. If this were real life, t20 would find himself behind bars and nice stack of fines and charges on his lap. You're talking about someone lying, stealing, and cheating. The fact is yes this is just a game, but a game that I am paying 15 dollars a month to play. I am not going to stand to let someone cheat me in a game i'm paying them to create!
t20 has shown enough dedication to use his power to benefit himself and those he saw fit. In my eyes the punishment is too lenient for the crime. If it were any other circumstance I would agree with a second chance, but the fact remains we are paying customers and we're being cheated out of our money.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[253]
I am really so sick to my stomach about this. I promise so much more cheating is going on. If this was what was caught, there is another 90% of the iceberg underwater not yet exposed.
I am >< that close to quitting this game for good.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Alex Under
The Priory
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[254]
Ok, I've read Hellmar's Blog and I must say I am appalled.
Quoted from Hellmar's Blog "...A pivotal case was uncovered last summer during a routine investigation of developer accounts. Unfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters..."
So CPP are now openly admitting that they new something was going on, but chose to ignore it. This only leads me to question - what else was or is going on that CCP chose to ignore that has yet to be uncovered by the EVE community? How many more Devs have acted inappropriately that we don't know about? This would not have ever come to light if a certain person by the name of "Kugutsmen" hadn't uncovered this and be brave enough to bring it to the public eye. Had he not brought it to the community's attention, how long would CCP have gone on ignoring this matter?
CPP shot themselves in the foot with this one. I don't think it is t20's sole responsibility to have this burden and have to make an apology, I think it is up to the heads of CCP to say "...sorry, we messed up, we should've acted when we uncovered this last summer...blah blah..." as they apaprently knew all along that something was going on.
Honestly, I don't care that he handed over T2 BPOs to BoB or that BoB profited and made money off of it. What's done is done, but what is upsetting is that his actions may have changed/impacted the course of this game for the long term. Even the slightest change is still considered change. I don't have any problems with the DEVs playing the game. But they should never ever hold any type of leadership roles whatsoever, and they should be excluded from all T2 BPO Lotteries as to avoid any mishap in the future. |
Kazuo Ishiguro
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[255]
I don't find this particularly surprising; given sufficient humans and sufficient time, something like this is bound to happen every so often, in spite of the regard that the developers seem (or seemed? ) to be held in on these forums. ------
So you're lagged out in Motsu/Saila/Aramachi, but you want that CNR? Do missions for another corp! |
Knerf
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[256]
There is sooooo much more to this than is actually being done, im no forum warrior nor do i have the time to sit and write a 4 page long post about all the problems with this and how it is being TOTALLY brushed under the rug but a few of the main things that are being forgotten here, and in my view are the most important. BOB taking and using info given to them from a dev to use against their enemys, KNOWING it was info from a dev, all these peoples accounts should be perma banned and all their assets deleted, its cheating plain and simple, i dont pay an monthly fee to play a game that other people that are more "popular" get an unfair advantage against others...
that and all the ships/items that others have lost due to the knowledge these people had from said advantages has to be staggering, its unfair on so many levels i dont have the time (as said above) to even begin to scratch the surface.
the next thing i should see a post about though is a list of the cheaters that have had their accounts banned from knowingly taking this information and using it against others. if that does not happen it would be an advertisement that you should cheat whenever you can as its accepted in this game.
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Poolpy
dev zero
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Troubadour Seriously, They were mostly crap BPOs.
And this, don't ring a bell to you ? If he was able to spawn crappy bpo...
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[258]
I am very glad t20 did not get fired. Lets all just calm down a bit here. There are People in Eve legaly Scamming other players for billions, and you all get upset about some minor tech2 BPOs?
And about the trust thing, do you expect to find 200 randomly assorted Humans and not one with them who is the proverbial foul apple? Naive.
CCP did investigate, and you have your witch to burn. You want to burn her now? Or maybe accept an apology for a realy not very serious act done long time ago?
And about the Guy who started it off, I am realy glad he got Banned. He posted reallife Information about players he suspected (not proved) to be CCP people in player corps. That allone should get him banned. And besides, he got that information by breaking Real life Laws. (breaking into computers is considered crime allmost evrywhere)
So, t20, lessen learned i guess. Good work on the investigation ccp, and now get over it people.
--- [AUCTION] Semiconductor Memory Cell II (built) |
Bloedkopp
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[259]
Please stay constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Eutectic
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[260]
Honestly the T2 BPO's are the least important of the allegations. The biggest is the inside knowledge of game mechanics and events passed to BoB.
There are some serious problems right now with Aurora team. Blatant favoritism of certain parties and unscheduled events that attack POS's in war systems comes to mind. Conviently the response from CCP has been it's been too long or we have no way of auditing it. Fine if that's the case then eliminate the events. I would love to see statistics of event locations and what alliances were involved and benefited.
As to K, I say let him burn, don't forget he attempted to extort resources from BoB before going public. Kind of like the dog who saves all your sheep but kills all your chickens instead. He's no martyr. Attempts to portray him as one are laughable at best.
Finally CCP should have but one feeling about this whole matter and that is utter SHAME.
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Irishi Ka
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[261]
This is really bad news. People will leave.
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Anglo on 09/02/2007 21:56:02 hard to say this, but i really hope all of eve will go against bob, and tell it to there face that cheeting in a game isent cool... i will never trust a bob thread again. nore any t20 says.
bob go die.. u cheeting scum...
Xelas fix etc.. wake up.. bob is the scum of eve...
free the whistler.... ccp u did VERY wrong... FREE him.-
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Yellow Planet
RONA Corporation RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:58:00 -
[263]
This is a good start.
What about the account sharing and other accusations. I have been on the receiving end of being shot though a POS shield by these guys.
I used to think all this stuff was crazy until that faction scorp got popped.
I am very disappointed about all this stuff. I was talking to my corp. mates on TS the other night and I said if something like this happened in RONA that I would quit in shame, the all said the same. Where is the shame? Is it really a win at all cost?
I am going to have to think deeply about my account status, I love this game dearly, but now whatÆs the point.
Originally by: Gummi CCP+BOB pushed, but the community pushed back, now thats a f****** Pendulum. |
Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[264]
a) Is T20 still employed by CCP ?
b) Has the method to gain BPOs been changed/randomized/altered away from the method compromised by dev information to players ?
c) Have those players who knowingly and repeatedly utilized information given by a dev (who acted against the rules of his employer CCP) been banned or suspended ? (proof of this is on a website you know well by now)
d) Has the in game profit gained by the illegal BPOs been traced in game and removed, like you would do it with every other profit gained by an exploit ? (that means not only ISK but also assets bought with these ISK)
e) Are the accounts of the player who exposed this problem still banned from EVE ?
Please answer these questions and answer them well, as you might lose subscribers and therefore money if you dont come clean out of this affair.
It is also your reputation as a company that is on the line here - and it has already taken a major hit on many well known games websites already.
Ian Novarider
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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Rolled
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[265]
Sadly this is still .... Not enough.
You've addressed some of the issues (and thanks for that) but not all. If you seriously are going to pretend like you've not been told what they are then it's quite clear CCP is trying it's hardest sweep this under the rug.
T20: Don't care one way or the other if he continues to work at CCP. However he shouldn't be playing the game any longer in a 0.0 alliance/corp. Ever. He's shown he can't handle the responsibility.
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RtoZ
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[266]
Isn't this a can of worms?
I have allways been against metagaming and consider what has happened as a total breach of contract between ccp and its playerbase. As bad as the T2 system is it has just got worse, as it seems to be instrumental in unbalancing the game in the favour of the more unscrupulous players. If EVE is a game biased towards dishonesty, theft and breach of trust I do not want to play it. Pure and simple. Allthough my role in this game is meaningless atm, as one of the upcomming players of the future (or at least I like to see myselg that way ) I wish to leave the following for CCP consideration:
1) The person responsible for bringing this whole affair into the public eye should have lenient treatment if he broke the EULA to do it, this information is of community interest and as such should excuse any minor ilegality present in making it public.
2) The Dev in question should have his accounts in the game terminated, and I personally consider that he should resign, but I leave it to CCP to decide on his future.
3) Being a member of the homeworld community (where I am known as Zepherian) and knowing several people quite high up in the BoB hierarchy I have in the past made it known that I would want to join their organisation. Allthough no firm response has been given to my request, in light of these events I am forced to retract all past statements to that effect, as I do not condone metagaming and believe that online gaming should be done based on equal oportunity. I will not take part in an organisation that has in the past harboured cheating activities.
4) CCP really need to revise the game mechanics, EVE is a game that rewards treachory and lies and penalizes the just. Is it any wonder that it succedes in corrupting the very people that create it? I suggest, for the long term, that CCP think about the moral implications of the game they have created, because atm it seems to be a school for scoundrels. And, to be blunt, it ******* sucks. I do not subscribe to enjoy the company of thieves.
RtoZ aka Zepherian.
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Frenchypoo
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[267]
Any devs willing to comment on any of this?
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Bawldeux IV
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[268]
Please do not troll - Serathu ([email protected])
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Imager
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 21:59:00 -
[269]
While it's cute you admitted it, the eve playerbase already knew you were a cheater and you knew you were a cheater. This time you got caught. You registered on Bob's forums with a ccp address. Your desire to be someone important in a game you created overwhelmed you and now you stand before us hoping to be exonerated. I don't forgive you. What you did was outright deplorable and threatened the very nature of fairness in eve. Good job. It takes hundreds to build a palace, but only one to tear it down.
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incist
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:00:00 -
[270]
Originally by: SamuraiJack Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying.
I know someone in CLS who told me they were a dev via in-game message on another game I play....
Dont go around acting like your own poo dont stink. CLS has had how many T2 BPO's over your history? What are the odds some of them were spawned too? Who knows really? |
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:00:00 -
[271]
Holy cr@p!
T20 can only be described as a despicable cheat. I don't care what the BPOs were--even if he only spawned a civilian shield booster BPO, it is an incredible breach of trust to do anything of the sort.
I can't understand why he is still an employee?! Please explain.
Finally, the fact that this came to light several months ago and yet apparently nothing was done--the BPOs weren't even removed?!--is absolutely mind-boggling.
Finally, the fact that the only admission of guilt involves things easily traceable in logs really stretches belief. How much valuable information and "secret infoes" has been passed from Devs to BoB and/or other alliances? How can CCP monitor and police this? Or doesn't CCP even care?
CCP needs to publicly post its policies on what Devs can and cannot do in-game, and perhaps the player base can help police what CCP is apparently not willing or able to do. If CCP doesn't ban them for doing so...
Finally, a deafening silence from BoB and its fanbois. Their righteous denials of any Dev favoritism have been rather conclusively refuted.
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Loftur sterki
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:00:00 -
[272]
Well nothing new under the sun is it. Those BPO issues are lame and I hope Hellmar makes his yard clean before molle takes his chair
** Grumpy old Viking ** |
Macmuelli
Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[273]
Thank U CCP for cleaning this up and showing whats happend!
At first it was rumour and it cames to be truth. I feeled realy sad about the SHAME of T20. It lowers my Gamefun absolutly. I asked myself... Why to hell trying to earn isks, spending so much time here in game, if something like this can be happend. I realy feel decepted ....
Well i hope U T20 knows what u had start to "keep rolling" doing this to the eve community .... and see now what cames out of it........
Well... We all have had serveral situation s in life, where we doing wrong and sad things who f... up other ppls. Without Forgiveness of them , we have no chance to grow , and deleteing or mistakes. CCP find a way making this NO MORE POSSIBLE " in future. If i remember one thing in my eve carrer, getting a wrong bpc by an agent out of a wrong rewards ( programmed), and the mail after setting the item on auction..... That he sayed"Where u get this? Only me gives out this bpc..... and changed it then into the right reward.... i hope u can follow... I mean give the control over BPO S - Uniques ships / items etc in a realy small group of your team...(perhaps only u and oveur? ) No Bpos/ uniques on devs accounts etc... ( if this can be make)
Events..... : Planning intern by your storyline writers give your volunteers a small advise Shrotly before the event start....
Well what ever .. I realy hope this will never be happend again....
This Game has so much potential / Future and makes so much Fun ... instruct your Devs etc that such a situation..... if this is ever be happend again, kill this game...
best regards Mac
cya in space
Whats a human without dreams?.....
DEATH |
Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[274]
And firing t20 will solve.... what? I don't want his head for this, but what I DO want is to know that next time this happens it won't take a "hacker" stealing private information off a player-run alliance message board to uncover it.
As for his blog, let me quote a part first:
Quote: I’m here, laying out the facts of what happened in June 2006 so this whole issue -- which jeopardized my colleagues, my company and our community -- can be put behind us
I don't see any facts about what happened in June 2006. You went from "Let me tell you what happened" to "This is what we're going to do", without actually telling anyone what happened. And this is exactly the problem with this investigation. It's exactly the kind of response everyone expected. People wanted transparency and explanation, hard facts about what happened and direct answers to serious questions. They got an apology and a promise to do better. While those are nice to have, they don't address the concerns of the community.
This kugutwhatever guy raised some serious questions within the community, and the answers given are vague at best, non-existant at worst. If you really want to leave it at this then you'll have to be prepared for the fact that the community will fill in the blanks however they choose, and at the end of the day it's the community that represents this game to everyone else. The answers they give to people are the answers that shape the image of EVE in the public eye. Any holes in these events that you don't fill with answers, the community will, and I doubt very much they'll be accurate.
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Necronomicon
Caldari The Weasels of Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Necronomicon on 09/02/2007 21:58:20 Although Kuugusdaysduuagan (whatever his name is) is a hacking little script kiddie who I wouldn't trust with a mobile phone let alone a computer, I do think that you have martyred him.
T20, for shame. CCP, for shame for sitting on this. TBH I dont know who I feel let down by the most.
I can totally understand their wish to play the game that they helped create, but by joining corps/alliances like BoB, they are pretty much asking for it.
Now I know where all the BPO offers I am missing went to, who else has illegal BPOs? LV?D2?GS?RED?ASCN?(etc etc) Every Dev/GM needs to be totally vetted and all account histories checked. Time to clean house CCP, or you will never hear the last of this.
EDIT - NO I don't feel T20 should be fired btw, we all make bad choices.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Sakuta San
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[276]
didn't that kustsugumen use illegal means to get information? he should be brought to court instate of be unbannend,
It's a shame something like this happend within CCP, but we are talking about someone job here someone who helped created eve the way it is now. Give this guy another chance, everybody makes mistakes in there lives.
quite acting inhuman, and try to be reasonable.
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Raytor
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[277]
It's nice to see that CCP is finally starting to take some action concerning questionable events such as these, but the fact remains that CCP buried this discreetly a long time ago and the only reason this has happened was because word got out. I for one do not find what is happening now to be adequate compensation for the long period of looking the other way on issues such as these unless they go public. I find it particularly sad that everybody was believing some random forum exploiter rather than CCP staff from the very start, has anybody else seeming missed this point here?
I'm not really interested in hearing what will happen to T20 as Im sure he is in plenty hot water for this, I'm more interested to know what's going to happen to the people that generously accepted his "gratuity" knowing full how unacceptable it was. The same people that traded accounts for money, the same people who assisted known TOS violators, the same people who then themselves engaged in multiple TOS violations and the same people who has been engaged in so many questionable activities since the conception of that alliance it boggles the mind. Even if it wasn't direct help, even the slightest tip off concerning a future change could massively tip the scales in somebodyÆs favor (I wonÆt elaborate on specific issues right now). They knew very well they were breaking the rules and I for one expect a proper investigation into the conduct of the players in question. I'm tired of all this double standards nonsense that has plagued this game in so many respects for so long now and it's time regain the communityÆs faith in your claim that you want to create the best playing experience possible for your users.
There have also been rumors circulating that a certain party was behind the gang invite spam and convo bombing of Mr. Fix at the start of the interceptor duel of the 2nd Caldari alliance tournament that tipped the scales in their favor. I'd like to know why this was never investigated further considering how easily it could have been done and the fact that the items given away for prizes were worth somewhere under 10 thousand USD given ISK conversion rates should make the gravity of the situation quite clear.
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Zothike
RABBLE-RABBLE
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[278]
didn't lost this hauler was an example of course (but i'm sure lot of ppl have real examples) i only state that to avoid a retard asking 'show me the kill mail' or such and declare himself smart, btw i lost LOT of money to BoB...
and "our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days." then it mean there prescription for things that happened.... let's say.... 30 days ago ?
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Hotash Slay
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[279]
lack of BoB posts speaks volumes......
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:01:00 -
[280]
First of all... pwned.
Second... does this mean kugutsumen gets unbanned? He's kinda everyone's hero now. It'd be stupid not to unban him IMO.
I kinda feel bad for BoB members since they look bad now, but I don't feel bad for the leadership knowingly taking advantage of t20s cheats.
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:02:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Tod Klemp
Originally by: Niaski Zalani Oh, that's just great.
So first there's an attempt to sweep it under the rug, and a lot of denials. Then you ban K.'s accounts, for no real reason.
And now you're telling everyone that yes, there's truth behind it?
Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back.
Yes, breaking laws is nothign at all. Then again, I know why you care so much.
CCP is not part of any kind of law enforcement. Prosecuting criminals is not their job.
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:02:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic Now do something about the GM scouting our POS in 28Y.
Yes. CCP, what exact purpose did GM Zhanius, who allegedly has a main character in Lotka Volterra, have for scouting our moons in 28Y?
We would love to see this formally addressed.
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Mariko San
Saints Surrounded
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:02:00 -
[283]
Firstly, I dont want to see anyone get fired over this, it was stupid but this is a game and not worth ruining someones life over.
With that out of the way, how on earth can CCP have this happen and still allow Devs to be actively involved in 0.0 politics?
I would say a large percentage of people involved at that level put their relationships, jobs, studies, personal lives at some degree of risk (some very little, some a lot) in pursuit of this game, now we have seen that includes CCP employees. You can never guarantee that more will not do the same even if it is just untraceable stuff like "have your client settings like this to cut down on lag" and "dont form gangs when jumping into a system to cut down on lag" and all these other little hints.
You are crazy to continue to allow you Devs to play in 0.0 alliances.
Those that profited from this in-game need to be punsihed in some way, whether its temp bans or whatever, something needs to be seen to be done. As for wiping peoples characters, so what, their friends in bob can just use some of the isk they made from the bpos to buy them a new 40m SP character tomorrow.
And the lost BPOs? They could buy them all ten times over off the market tomorrow. How is that a punishment?
All of my accounts bar one are currently running off GTC and the final one will expire soon. I will probably continue to play while I have isk to buy GTC but I dont see you getting another penny from me, whether it is for CCG, eon, stuff from the store or subscriptions.
Really, really poor.
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KeratinBoy
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[284]
Hello, CCP and fellow EVE players.
I have been playing this game now for nearly a month and figure my opinions in this matter count as much as anybody elses.
To my eyes, CCP have repeatedly tried to ignore the allegations coming from Anthonyz website, via hacked BoB DB. CCP has demonstrated a clear bias in these forums by banning all his accounts and not Sir Molle. The first EVEOnline thread about this was locked after 24 pages, apparently because it was degenerating into flame wars, et cetera,... To my eyes, not true. The flame wars were dying out and cogent discussion gaining dominance. The second thread went the same way as the first and I am of the opinion this one will go the same.
Since the allegations of spawned BPOs hold true, what then of the ancillary evidence that BoB leaders knew the origins of the BPOs?
Considering that, at each stage of this debacle, CCP and BoB leaders have denied the veracity of all allegations and then, because the player base refuses to be treated like cretins, have admitted ONE allegation to be true. The players will keep this up until ALL allegations are investigated. The sooner CCP starts acting like they believe this, the better off all of us will be.
I just subscribed to Eve after my 2 week trial was up. Why should I resubscribe when the deck is stacked against me? I get that from Real Life and don't have to pay for it.
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[285]
something should be done... i sugest all suport the d2 invasion wich is going on right now. lets kick some bob ass.
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Gharmin Ra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[286]
The whistleblower... well, while his actions might be immoral where a heck lot more moral then ehm, others. Some things need to be done justified in the name of truth, not for good but for truth.
I urge all that feel Kugy 'the uncoverer' should be "freed" to name your ships in his honor and change your forum sigs to reflect this stand, while certain other moles and gravediggers might be in to take the truthseekers punishment, to balance things.
Far more then just some bpos are at stake and I wonder to about certain accusations about polaris frigs seen as scouts now and in past times.
I have faith in CCP, faith they will take the right path and take a clear stand at gm/dev conduct vs favoritism. Eve isnt like other mmos, it has one world, one community and one heck of a charm.
-=FREE KUGUTSUMEN=- |
Broska
Shadow Blades
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[287]
I'm sorry by if CCP EVER expects anyone to EVER trust their company again, t20 as to go.
To the people saying "Oh their crap BPO's he shouldn't be fired over spawning them"
Would YOU honestly say no to those BPO's? Because Effectively he's denied those people who would have got those BPO's from getting them.
The fact that Kunwhathisname, Is banned and the developer responsible is not fired. Truely show's what sort of company this is. ------------------------------
Originally by: Tovarishch flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[288]
rename Band of brothers to Band of BPO T2 ,
while others wait for years to get 1 lausy bpot2 they get their hands on plenty i say fire the guy.he abused his position if i did that at my work ill get crusified so why not him?... The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
Altaree
Gallente Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:04:00 -
[289]
Will CCP gut alliances that they spend time making friends and becoming directors in, if they see wrong doing? How can a CCP employee know about the cyno networks and not stomp them hard? Taking a CCP employee into your corp/alliance should have more danger than benefit.
I personally think the EULA on account sharing should be changed to "Do it at your own risk, and the shared character will be held responsible for any transgressions the person controling the account commits. Applied to all three characters on the account." But that is another topic.
T20, that must have been rough. I can't imagine the looks around the office you are getting. I here by sentence you to doing all of the web-cell's scut work.
Helmar, thank you very much. I am VERY confident there is a much tighter leash on CCP staff now. I understand that you cannot be more specific. Is this mostly internal or mostly EU privacy laws?
CCP network team. Can you have the IGB proxy through the eve servers, or somehow hide the ipaddresses of the players using it? PLEASE!
Back to the .01 isk pewpew!
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:05:00 -
[290]
If there was something else out right this minute similar to Eve I would be gone, never to return. Something will come soon, and I will quit this game. *snip* Your game will go down in flames.
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:05:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
I think you need to be real to yourself buddy. It might be a game, but you and I put alot of time and effort into it to get cheated plain and simple. So quit spewing crap out your mouth with "it's a game". We all know its a game, and a game that has cheaters, especially cheaters that made the game is not a fun game. I myself am highly considering unsubbing my 2 account because what can I say... I hate ******* cheaters. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Shiryiu
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:05:00 -
[292]
Tbh, I think CCP has too many customers.
If in my organization a developer gets caught working in a production environment, he/she gets the sack. Developers should only have access to testing and development environments.
Reason: private data flows and access to user intel
Yes, I'm angry because it's my money you are fooling around with!
__________________________________________________
I think fish is nice, but then I think that rain is wet, so who am I to judge? |
Danny Hawk
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:05:00 -
[293]
this si a joke right? this is a case of ok i'll admit to it to keep them quiet, im sry but thats just crap. My qu8estion is how can u sell me this product anymore when uve allowed one party ingame to get where they are through cheating? Tbh i cant see how u can leave it like this. i assure u if u think that taking the bpos after theyve been used for 6 months plus and made billions of isk for bob ceos is good enough, ure so wrong. i wait a further response to this as the decision will determine mine and alot of ppls future in this game
Danny hawk
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Kymlicka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Sakuta San didn't that kustsugumen use illegal means to get information? he should be brought to court instate of be unbannend,
It's not illegal in the country where he lives.
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olyyy
Gallente V I R I I Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[295]
Apologies rejected T20. You've just managed to ruin the reputation of your company. Congratulations. You've also justified all the conspiracies theories around the devs, around BoB etc... Even if most of them are untrue, it will now be impossible to say it with certainty. Nice precedent you just set.
I feel sad today. Spawning tech2 bpos was the most stupid thing a dev could do. What else have you done before? We'll never know. But believe me, most of us are suspicious.
I don't mind BoB. I actually know people in it. I wouldn't join any BoB corporation but I don't feel any hate for BoB. I'm quite neutral here. But I'm saying that I feel uterly betrayed. I had put a lot of trust in CCP thinking things like this wouldn't happen. Although I smell that illegal means where used to gather the informations, I'm happy that this case was discovered and I was expecting from CCP to be MUCH MORE merciless.
This whole affair is putting a lot of suspicion. I definitly do not trust T20 anymore and wish him to either stop playing eve or have his employment contract terminated. (the second option is more than justified). The
I'm glad however to see that ccp is taking actions for this not to happen ever again.
Men never lie more than before elections, during war and after hunting. |
Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[296]
WE NEED MORE TRANSPARENCY.
Why are we not allowed to mention certain issues anywhere on the forums, ever?
Why do devs/GMs keep their alt identities secret in game?
Why are the results of controversial petitions kept a secret? Why is it forbidden to post GM and dev chatlogs/mails?
Why the secrecy, CCP? Who are you protecting by keeping these things secret? You have shown that you cannot be trusted. You need to let the public evaluate your actions from now on.
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doshin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[297]
The true root of the problem is attachment.
You might be able to make the argument that devs need to play the game, but can you say that they need to play with the same players and corps for years? What t20 is human nature, people get attached and sometimes cheat if it will help out a friend. Do the right thing CCP and close this loop.
Require devs to change corps at least once every few months. Require devs to change all their characters every few months as well.
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Stede Bonnet
Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Eutectic Honestly the T2 BPO's are the least important of the allegations. The biggest is the inside knowledge of game mechanics and events passed to BoB.
There are some serious problems right now with Aurora team. Blatant favoritism of certain parties and unscheduled events that attack POS's in war systems comes to mind. Conviently the response from CCP has been it's been too long or we have no way of auditing it. Fine if that's the case then eliminate the events. I would love to see statistics of event locations and what alliances were involved and benefited.
As to K, I say let him burn, don't forget he attempted to extort resources from BoB before going public. Kind of like the dog who saves all your sheep but kills all your chickens instead. He's no martyr. Attempts to portray him as one are laughable at best.
Finally CCP should have but one feeling about this whole matter and that is utter SHAME.
You mean events like this? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405587
_______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered.
SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA! |
Justicas Herror
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:06:00 -
[299]
How easy would it be for CCP to cover up this incident to the players? Really, that's how.
I think that the apology and subsequent blog shows CCP's maturity as game devs - I'm almost certain that all the devs for WoW for example, when they go on their characters will just constantly cheat. Now, actions like that in WoW have far less long-reaching implications (ie alot smaller acheivements) but the principal is the same.
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SamuraiJack
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Sinlare
You're just bitter that you lost Samurai, get over yourself. You're a nobody and you screaming murder won't change that.
Answer 1) i have no problem loosing... except to a bunch of lying cheaters.
Answer 2) Go play hide and go frack yourself. kthx bye ;-)
Two Brick Diplomat SJ. CLS Director =-
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SamuraiJack
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Sinlare
You're just bitter that you lost Samurai, get over yourself. You're a nobody and you screaming murder won't change that.
Answer 1) i have no problem loosing... except to a bunch of lying cheaters.
Answer 2) Go play hide and go frack yourself. kthx bye ;-)
Two Brick Diplomat SJ. CLS Director =-
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Steven McWayne
Gallente Decadence. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[302]
the bpos are only significant important.. the intel he may given out to bob about changes to eve, new skills..what to skill and what to sell etc pp are more hurting the community.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[303]
Devs shouldn't be fired over incidents like this They should lose their privilege of having any game account for a considerable amount of time. It lets them continue to do their job (working for CCP), which they've performed well, while keeping them from having a responsibility that they've abused (playing EVE). GMs are in a different situation, as they can't do their job without an ingame presence.
Any accounts banned for accusations later proven true, no matter the methods employed, should be unbanned with clear names At this level of seriousness, accounts should be banned not on principle or technicality, but on the merit of their actions. In this case, the former player(s)'s actions were to the benefit of the Dev Team, the EVE community, and EVE as a whole. Any players who put forth later-vindicated allegations with solid evidence are not wronging EVE, and EVE should not wrong them.
My $0.02 (US)
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AltTastic
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[304]
I guess the part that really bugs me about this whole situation is, that the guy who uncovered this to begin with had evidence, and, the devs have confirmed that one piece of the mountain of evidence was true. Why would this guy who found this information out add a bunch of other "non-true" evidence into the mix? Isn't dev's supplying T2 BPO's to BoB a big enough 'scandal' by itself if you put yourself back in time before this all started?
Sure, right now its 1 small piece of a huge pile of problems BoB was looking at potentially. But 2 weeks ago had someone said "hey, devs are giving spawned T2 BPO's to BoB", that would have been enough for me to consider it a HUGE deal. So my point is, I don't believe that the BPO's are the only piece of evidence to be true, and here's why: The investigation was too fast.
The community was very vocal in their desire for an investigation and if necessary, justice. As such, I suspect CCP felt very under-the-gun, especially with this news leaking to outside sources such as MMO news sites, and even Slashdot. That being said, I find it very unlikely that an investigation was able to be done that traced the activity to ALL developers within BoB and any other alliance for that matter, back to when the alts of those devs joined said alliances. Some of these devs have had alts in these alliances for multiple years, correct? That's a lot of potential trades, transfers, sales, etc to go over. I find it unlikely that all of this was able to be investigated in such a short period of time, though I am not a DBA, so perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm really not the conspiracy theory type, I'm not biased, I don't hate BoB, AFAIK BoB has never fired a single shot on anyone in my corp ever, and I am not involved with an organization that has anything to do with 0.0 politics or 0.0 alliances. However I just find it strange that this guy was able to dig up some dirt and get some logs, and low and behold some of the allegations were true. So the story then is that the guy fabricated all the rest of the logs? Sounds fishy to me.
I will say that no, I'm not going to be one of these people throwing a fit and threaten to quit playing, that has no value. I will state however, that as someone who is in an Alliance that is still growing in Empire space preparing for 0.0, this kind of thing has made me seriously re-think getting into that whole ball of wax in the future. This whole incident has seriously made me lose all desire to push on to 0.0, it sounds.. too drama-filled for me.
/me adjusts Tin Foil [HAT]
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Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[305]
The saddest thing in all of this is that, regardless of the extent to which any cheating occured, BoB's reputation is likely ruined.
And really, it is only the actions of a very few who will have caused this -- the average BoB member is everything BoB claims, dedicated and good at what they do. BoB's accomplishments (and this is coming from a BoB-hater) can not be entirely due to any cheating or free BPO's or anything. BoB is damn good at what they do.
Unfortunately, there has been dev "cheating" (even if "minor" or "innocent"), the "proceeds" of said cheating went to BoB, and thus BoB is guilty in the eyes of the public.
CCP, we look forward to seeing clearly defined rules on how Devs interact with the game world, and how this will be avoided in the future.
I also sincerely hope something can be done to both correct any damage to game balance that occurred due to these events, and that something can be done to remove the blemish from what the Band of Brothers have accomplished in this game.
----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Di Jiensai
CCP did investigate, and you have your witch to burn. You want to burn her now? Or maybe accept an apology for a realy not very serious act done long time ago?
This is the underlying point of this whole business. They *gave* us our witch to burn so we wouldn't burn everyone else with him. They admitted something serious enough to make people angry but something that clearly is not the limit of what happened.
They tried to placate us by offering a sacrifice. Are you really molified by such an overt attempt to quiet the mob?
Quote:
And about the Guy who started it off, I am realy glad he got Banned. He posted reallife Information about players he suspected (not proved) to be CCP people in player corps. That allone should get him banned.
So you really think they banned that guy for doing the same thing that did not get Molle banned? They are either being highly disingenuous or simply lying. I would go with the latter.
Quote:
So, t20, lessen learned i guess.
The lesson he learned is tha**** ok to cheat because if you are caught the worst that will happen is that part of what you did will be undone and you will be required to admit you did it.
The consequences to him are completely nil. If antyhing this should encourage more cheating.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Dr Felonius
Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[307]
I'm also of the opinion that t20 has to go, for what it's worth. Such an action is necessary to assure the players that CCP takes these issues seriously and that no such corruption will happen again. If he just gets a slap on the wrist, the next dev who feels like spawning some BPOs may decide that it's worth the risk.
I'm fine with devs playing on the prod server, but I don't see why they have to play this way. What aspect of the game could they not fully experience if they used temporary characters with arbitrary resources to participate? If a dev wants to see how fleet battles are going on Tranquility, he or she could create a new char with a standard skill set, spawn a BS with a standard fit, and fly with some alliance, fully and openly. The CCP IA guys could promise to do an immediate audit of the battle. CCP could also be open about which alliances had devs fly with them when, and make sure that the distribution is reasonably fair.
Experiencing the game does not, in my opinion, require secret dev accounts nor participation at the highest political levels. Even if that level of participation does help the devs, they ought to be willing to forego it in order to put this scandal behind them. Only a new culture of openness and accountability can put this issue to rest forever.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:09:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Justicas Herror How easy would it be for CCP to cover up this incident to the players? Really, that's how.
I think that the apology and subsequent blog shows CCP's maturity as game devs - I'm almost certain that all the devs for WoW for example, when they go on their characters will just constantly cheat. Now, actions like that in WoW have far less long-reaching implications (ie alot smaller acheivements) but the principal is the same.
Thats not Maturity, its getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and apologizing for eating all the cookies after they are gone. Big difference.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Vas Arach'ta
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:09:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
When aren't whistleblowers punished? Nobody likes a rat. Especially loud, belligerent ones. Call it civic responsibility or whatever you want, but whistleblowers will always be heroes that no one wants to talk to, let alone trust. With anything. Ever.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
It was dealt with--incorrectly, mind you--as soon as the infraction was discovered. The only difference between then and now is that its public revelation was accompanied with painful letters of apology from CCP employees, and revealing the measures they took months ago to rectify it.
This has been restated several times now.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
Yes, let's give him a monument. One thing with whistleblowers is that it's difficult to distinguish between genuine passion of cause with an urgent desire to become famous.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How much similar activity is going on that we don't know about? This one case gets revealed, and CCP, after being dragged hesitantly through the mud, reaches out with a horrible reaction.
If the personal words of CCP's CEO aren't enough to convince you that the company is and has done everything in its power to prevent this from happening again, then go away. You're not helping anyone here by spreading wanton anxieties of corporate deceit and abuse.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How do we know that this isn't continuing to happen elsewhere in the universe? What faith are now supposed to have in CCP's watchguarding abilities?
See above.
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 How are we supposed to trust the fact that CCP isn't sweeping other, lesser-known "crimes" under the rug as well?
You don't. All you have Hilmar Petursson's word, which is more than enough for me.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to do a mission for my research agent.
/V
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[310]
Going to have to reiterate the points about devs NOT having positions of responsibility in alliances, especially positions relating to their dev speciality.
Furthermore, it pains me to see people saying that this was a 'minor' breach of the CCP so should not be punished too much. Any breah of the game community's trust is too much in my opinion. As somebody who has defended BoB against accusations of hacking and GM favoritism I feel rather unimpressed. Not thinking about leaving the game, but not happy with CCP, and I speak for my whole corp and probably alliance here.
sgb
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Arthur Miller
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[311]
Now, what is going to be done about the multiple cases of account sharing in RKK that these devs had knowledge of? |
01101100011101
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Fire T20.
How will firing one guy help when there's still a bunch of others left untouched, or any of the cosnequences over time addressed
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insolace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[313]
Judging from the makeup of the responses in this thread I think it would have been in CCPs best interests to be heavy handed in their dealing of this issue, not the other way around.
The community is outraged and if CCP wants to regain our confidence in the game, they need to show us that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. Forgiving T20 in any professional capacity (letting him keep his job) is showing a degree of tolerance for his behavior, and is unnaceptable.
CCP also needs to show that they're not going to punish those with evidence of wrong-doing when they share that evidence. Keeping "K" banned is a statement of warning against future whistle-blowers, and will only serve to undermine the community's confidence in this behavior being prevented in the future.
Removing the BPOs only serves to stop further damage being inflicted, it does nothing to actually repair the damage that has been done. Those who were in possession of the BPOs should be fined the average selling price of those items multiplied by the rate at which they could have been produced and sold in the time they were possessed. If the offenders wish to blame anyone, they may turn to T20.
CCP needs to do the following:
1) fire T20 to show they have a ZERO tolerance policy
2) unban "k" and all of his accounts
3) Fine BOB for the profits made from their BPOs, again demonstrating a ZERO tolerance policy
The community cannot take CCP seriously in this matter until these three actions are taken.
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Haitchi Allamut
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[314]
Originally by: 01101100011101
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Fire T20.
How will firing one guy help when there's still a bunch of others left untouched, or any of the cosnequences over time addressed
Its a start. _________________________________ Recruitment |
Ciphero
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[315]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it confirmed anywhere that BoB were aware that the BPOs were obtained illegally? If they weren't and had no reason to be, they have done nothing wrong.
T20, I'm glad you apologised. However, it's pretty clear that you did so because you were caught, not necessarily because you regretted it or wouldn't do it again. I think you should consider yourself let off very, very lightly thus far.
Put simply, this thing totally trashes BoB's credibility ("best PVP alliance in the game? Well, you did have a dev helping you after all.") and seriously damages CCP's. I for one will always look at things with a very suspicious eye that I hoped never to have. |
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[316]
Originally by: MuthaTrucka
Thats not Maturity, its getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and apologizing for eating all the cookies after they are gone. Big difference.
QFT. They were busted, and had to admit it, or it would of been worse in the long run.
There is more of this going on right this very second though, and if you think it is not, you're either naive as hell or a moron.
The amount of corruption around right now is astounding. CCP has plenty to hide (more than just dev misconduct) and are doing their best to cover it all up or silence those who blow the whistle.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Vanick
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:11:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Vanick on 09/02/2007 22:10:02 Edited by: Vanick on 09/02/2007 22:09:40 Sadly this is still not enough. It's good that in the case of T20 he was found and (hopefully) fired, but this indicates bad things all-around for the rest of the game. The struggle with which people had to get CCP to do anything about 6 BPOs was ridiculous. The blatant coverup, the banning of the whistleblower, and the other sketchy things which still stick out like sore thumbs...
Try some transparency for a change.
And for people saying he shouldn't be fired: we pay for this service. If an employee intentionally devaules and corrupts the service his company provides he can, and should be fired.
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Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[318]
11 pages in an hour and a half, that must be some kind of record
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Tanyi Thomas
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Manus Ghostface DBP buying a character or getting it gratis, Sirmolle posting personal info...this we won't see information, nor should we according to how client account issues are handled. If guilty we should see them quietly disappear, or someone from Bob announcing it, but CCP should maintain their policy on account issues being between them and the account owner.
But some issues that still need addressing in a bullet point yeah or ney manner by ccp.
1. T20's admission of what bpos he returned confirm he was the character who managed the RKK capital fleet. If so, he had to be aware of the cynonet alt sharing scheme, will action be taken on this and account sharing viololations in general. If not, then EULA changes need to be made to clarify or modify policy.
2. Can we be confident of impartiality in tournaments? Recent offsite evidence points pretty well to recent BOB membership of the dev who is in charge of these events. The idea of a rules council for made me happier, but final decisions would be in the hands of someone with bias.
3. Movement of devs and gms in warzones in suspicious manners need to be tracked. It does seem very odd to have a moon to moon jumping gm ship right before a major offensive.
4. The "Internal Affairs" group needs a email or reporting mechanism independent of the moderators, and monitored by more than one person with logs kept of deleted items. One cat sitting on the barrel of cream will not improve this process.
5. Serious thought on changing or restarting the t2 process needs to be done, if there is evidence that someone was able to do this and get away with it, then faith in the whole system is shattered. How do we know that other cases don't exist.
Ball is in your court, make us believers, but don't try and stagedive and find out the crowd has moved away.
WOW, my trust in CCP when it come to BOB is really broken.
Solo
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Manus Ghostface 1. T20's admission of what bpos he returned confirm he was the character who managed the RKK capital fleet. If so, he had to be aware of the cynonet alt sharing scheme, will action be taken on this and account sharing viololations in general. If not, then EULA changes need to be made to clarify or modify policy.
Frankly, I doubt there's a major 0.0 corp/alliance in Eve that doesn't share cyno accounts. That's the big fault with the whole cyno system, that it gives a huge advantage to multi-account characters who can afford to have alts stationed in intermediate systems - there needs to be a better way of doing this.
What worries me more is account sharing of major assets like Titans. I know ASCN petitioned Shrike and I know the petition was denied. Maybe justifiably but how are now supposed to trust this? Meanwhile one of our members has just had a longtime character instabanned (with all his assets including carrier) because CCP discovered the account was transferred between players well over a year ago. No cheating, no cash, simply a no-longer-wanted account being passed to a corpmate for which CCP has still been paid all this time. Technically against the rules, but what harm was it doing to justify the sort of zero-tolerance policy which CCP obviously don't apply to its own?
*shakes head* Oh why couldn't you have been honest with us from the start? The damage this has done to trust is incalculable. |
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Zachri
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:12:00 -
[321]
Please remain on-topic - Serathu ([email protected])
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Chronus26
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:13:00 -
[322]
The community of this game neads to learn to THINK before posting. I can't believe what i'm reading here, some of this is completly unbelievable.
CCP have taken the action they deemed neccisary. Only they have ALL the information here and therfore only they have the ability to decide what actions should or should not be taken.
Please, put some thought into what you post instead of just jumping on the bandwagon. -----
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[323]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
Firetail
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[324]
The corporation involved should be broken up, its assets deleted, its sovereignties (should it have any) be nullified.
This is a very, very serious breach of trust between an employee, CCP, a corporation and the community. Drastic measures need to be taken.
It is my opinion that deleting the offending corporation and its assets and holdings is the least harmful measure, yet sends the clearest message.
As for T20's job, that's not my place to decide. This person should not ever be allowed to have privileges that might allow the same actions to occur. It is good that CCP is putting into place measures to stop further actions such as this.
As to the original people who uncovered this scandal, they should not be punished by CCP for alleged real-world law breaking. If CCP believes they have broken laws, they should approach the appropriate law enforcement authorities with any information they have. CCP cannot take the law into its own hands, especially in this situation where their own malfeasance was uncovered by those they seek to punish.
I sincerely hope you don't have publicly-traded stock.
These are my constructive suggestions, not made in anger, but which hopefully will restore faith to the community of EvE.
---
"When the Caldari Navy saw the drones, they laughed. It wasn't until the command ship's hull buckled and the coms that the screams started, and by then, no one could hear them." |
gordon cain
Minmatar x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[325]
Anyone have an external link or anything to the original thread from Kugutsumen or can anyone fill me in plz.
On topic: Sad day, not enough concequence. I have been a victim of this coverup thing myself back with the drone bug. I learned it doesnt matter really in the end cause they just stop it and remove it if needed.
There should be no differences between if you come from a well known alliance or a noob corp.
All equal!
Gordon
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DaHeaVYFo
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:14:00 -
[326]
Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:15:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
This is a game for **** sake! Its not the end of the world! And as I said, it did not affect the player mass as a whole! I say let this pass!
A "game" to us, perhaps (definately a hobby). A "game" to CCP it is not. It is a business. A BIG business. Figuring 130,000 subscriptions paying $14.95 a month equals $1,943,500 a month in income.
The sheer financial loss from this supposedly 'isolated' incident should be enough of a reason to get t20 fired. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Boxcar McGee
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Boxcar McGee on 09/02/2007 22:13:14
Quote: *Our Internal Affairs department...ha[s] concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others.
Quote: Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.
Now I'm no Columbo, but if all the logs aren't available then how can your IA department conclude that no other developers abused their positions?
Of course, this is the same IA department "which is also tasked with standard periodic audits of all developer and volunteer accounts" and somehow missed a developer spawning rare BPOs and passing them around to his closest e-pals like party favors.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[329]
Originally by: DaHeaVYFo Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
Lose. Loose = Not Tight.
Fire T20. Disband RKK. Right Your Wrongs.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[330]
Originally by: incist
Originally by: SamuraiJack Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying.
I know someone in CLS who told me they were a dev via in-game message on another game I play....
Dont go around acting like your own poo dont stink. CLS has had how many T2 BPO's over your history? What are the odds some of them were spawned too? Who knows really?
No way! There could not be dev's in CLS, ascn maybe woulda lasted longer if thats the case! right? |
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Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:16:00 -
[331]
PS: On firing T20
Don't.
Listen, the whole problem here is that we are all human. Hence why many of us cried foul over devs playing at all (I am not one of that mob.)
I've seen people risk their careers for one night of passion, I've seen people risk their lives for a fix. Humans are very much capable of being very self destructive. Hell, the president of the US got fired for getting a BJ in his office (and she wasn't even a total hotty!)
So, what needs to happen here, is we need you, CCP, to implement rules which prevent "human nature" from unbalancing your game. Something that ensures the average player that he isn't just a floating target for some egotistical developer.
Don't fire anyone, just fix the problem, and put rules in place to prevent it from happening again. Then tell us what those rules are so we are at least aware of HOW the developers interact with us, and can be assured they aren't conspiring with the most powerful alliance in the game.
----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Murandi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:17:00 -
[332]
Originally by: gordon cain Anyone have an external link or anything to the original thread from Kugutsumen or can anyone fill me in plz.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/index.php
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General Xenophon
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:17:00 -
[333]
Edited by: General Xenophon on 09/02/2007 22:15:02 Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
This is no laughing matter. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Boondock Saints |
Navdaq
Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:17:00 -
[334]
Blah, blah, blah.
Nothing will change.
This will happen again.
Get use to playing a rigged game.
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Necronomicon
Caldari The Weasels of Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:18:00 -
[335]
I think taking away the Devs/GM right to actually take part in the glorious game would be a bit harsh, but definately, they should only be allowed to access their Dev/GM accounts on CCP computers with logserver running permanently and with no other apps on that PC other than DEV related tools. This would at least minimise their influence to what they can read/remember. All of these PCs should be open to random checks by unbiased senior staff.
Thinking that something like this would not happen would be extremely niave. Ppl are fallable.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:18:00 -
[336]
I do hope this isn't the end. There are a lot of things Mr K addressed.
Also, a goo didea I think would be to have That internal service of CCP have its own email address for anyone to report fishy things happening.
Then let's see how many Shrike's will be online for 24/7/30 in a roll? --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
Fogy
Caldari Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:18:00 -
[337]
If he spawned them for him self..WTF did he give them to RKK when i felt/knew he was gona get baned/kicked/relocated?
How many account does he have? Is there any way of knowing if he spawn, or rigg the lottery, in any way help aquire, t2 BPO's for thous accounts? or for other directors/players in BoB?
I'm sorry, but T20 post just doesnt cutt it for me.
I'm not saying he should be baned, kicked, have his contract terminated. But i still question the reliability of it all.
My first thoughts when reading his post was, him "giving" us the bpo scam, so we could flame all over that, while hiding other cheats.. I find it hard to beleave he did not know of the other wrong dooings done or known about in BoB. You can argue that kughblablabla came up with the other acustations by him self, but why would would he if he allready kneew this?
I think we as paying customers deserve more. At the end of the day, CCP wouldn't exist without US feeding YOU the real life money WE work to gett.
I dont beleave this investigation is over.. i actually think this investigation is FAR from over.. I hope you keep thees bloggs comming, to keep the community up to date with what's going on.
Cheers! Fogy
I nerfed my siggie.. :( "From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:18:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Originally by: DaHeaVYFo Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
Lose. Loose = Not Tight.
Fire T20. Disband RKK. Right Your Wrongs.
*snip* Its not like its RKK's fault for t20 cheating. Why would RKK be punished because someone else cheated, its not like RKK made t20 cheat. Even if the leaders of RKK knew about it, morality is not the same as legality.
Not to mention the other "allegations" on that idiots site are personal matters which if discussed publicly would mean CCP does not respect thier own Privacy policy... A far worse crime considering they have my credit info, if ya ask me.
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
DevilHanzo
Gallente Acuario Mining Industries Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:18:00 -
[339]
t20 has to go, its very simple, and surely you can find out who the players were that either took receipt of the bpo's or knew of their illict roots, they should be banned also.
CCP, please listen, i am more than qualified to give you some very good advice. This is not the time to p*ssyfoot around, quite simply your response so far is inadequate and you will lose money over this, not to mention our trust, just look how quickly this thread has grown already.
In any other business the person responsible would be unemployed now, they have already demonstrated that they can not be trusted. Ask yourself this, would you now trust t20 with any of the companys hard-earned finance ?
You need to take action very quickly, i am sure you know what needs to be done.
Listen to the community, we are the ones who keep YOU in a job.
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:19:00 -
[340]
PlayerA: Um, excuse me... but someone's been cheating. CCP: /banzor PlayerA PlayerB: Hey! They have been cheating! PlayerC: Cheaters?! WTH? CCP: Nothing wrong, move along. PlayerD: Hey, CCP. What gives? CCP: Oops. One of our employees was cheating every other player in EVE. We're terribly sorry. We'll ask him to behave better in the future and we'll throw in a 'pretty please'.
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:19:00 -
[341]
he abused his position FIRE HIM!!!!!!!!!! The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
elohllird
Gallente Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:20:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
QFT
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ShuPac the3rd
Amarr Obsidian Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:20:00 -
[343]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) ------- nije mi dozvoljeno stavit sliku koja ja hoću |
Psym0n
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:21:00 -
[344]
Edited by: Psym0n on 09/02/2007 22:19:24 It takes a lot of balls to admit that you did something wrong, and then apologise to 150k people....
i dont think he deserves to loose his job, i think that he needs to loose some of his privelages however. one of them being his EVE account.
edit -
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
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Kimo Hanakito
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:22:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Kimo Hanakito on 09/02/2007 22:18:51
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:23:00 -
[346]
im amzed it had to take a hacker to get this information, if the hacker diddent provided the comunity with this information we would never have known. and ccp would never have gone public with it... The hacker odd name is a freedom fighter within the game and should be saluted.. now END YOURSLEF BOB.
you just lost all respect in the comunity.
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Ruiryu
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:23:00 -
[347]
Gotta add one more thing to this.
All the people who knew of these under taking in the BoB alliance should have there accounts removed for not reporting this. They are equally guilty, for t20 to say he did it alone is a crock of ****. The individuals who knew what t20 was doing should be removed, their is no way certain individuals can claim they had no idea this was going on. They are an just as guilty as t20. They kept quite so that they could benefit as much as he did, they are accessories to this crime.
In the real world your equally as guilty as the criminal if your an accessory.
CCP you should make an example of these individuals, to show the community the level of seriousness that Hellmars blog spoke of. Other wise this is just a slap on the wrist for those involved, and a slap to the face for everyone else.
ENOUGH is enough. Time for you to get serious about how things are being run and your control over those you employ.
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Nuska
Amarr Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:23:00 -
[348]
#1 Fire t20. #2 Reinstate Kugutsumen's account. #3 Then, and only then, have the nerve to ask forgiveness.
t20 has betrayed the community, and if you want to look at it in a business neses, he has betrayed CCP's customers.
Regardless of past actions and service to the community, once you cheat those whom you are supposed to serve, all bets are off.
What possible reason could I, as paying customer, have to trust a dev who abused his powers if that dev remains with the game? The world is full of talented coders, a suitable replacement for t20 can certainly be found.
The value of the BPOs is really irrelevant, because the principle of trust in CCP is at stake. Some BPOs given to some alliance have very little effect, if any, on me as an individual player, but it has a huge effect on how I few the company and on whether I feel that I should support those who leave cheaters unpunished.
The responsibility for fixing this mess does not lie with t20, there is nothing he can do to make it right. It is unfortunate that CCP places a higher value on t20's contribution to the business than on the justified opinions of its customers.
It's fortunate for CCP that it is not a U.S. based business, I am sure someone in our lovely litigation society would have taken legal action already if they would have had the opportunity to do so.
Regardless, CCP needs to do the right thing and have the same standard apply to everyone. Show t20 the way out, and bring the whistleblower back in. If there is patriotism in EVE, then Kugutsumen is a patriot. CCP endorsed cheating on the paying customer is unacceptable under any circumstances.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:23:00 -
[349]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Ace Frehley
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:24:00 -
[350]
Oh the old FA lottery springs to mind... How did Big get that ship, devs involved? How much isk dident big get from that lottery, IŠm happy I dident paryicipated in it..
Girljerms is more lethal then a fleet of 1000 Tempests Yeah IŠm nude, IŠm a swede and IŠm armed with bad jokes
[url="http://www. |
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Hashi Lebwohl
Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:24:00 -
[351]
I want to be surprised - I suppose there was going to be a little flames amongst all the flake surrounding BoB.
Let me ask a question: Given that BoB tactics over the last six months have involved alot of Sabre intedictors holding targets with long range fleets of Spike armed Megathrons killing them, surely those victims can claim with justification that they were killed by items in game dishonestly obtained? Petition time I think....I hope you've hired more GM's.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:25:00 -
[352]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Addela Argaron
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:25:00 -
[353]
I think its bang out of order what happend .....DEV's stealing BPO's and abusing there power is just wrong on so many levles....i dont think DEV's should be aloud to join player corps....they should be part of concord....maybe as in game police or something to help players....not to take sides with alliences and to abuse there positions.
very bad show guys....im very dissapointed
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Dray
Caldari Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:25:00 -
[354]
I feel a little lost tbh, im no lover of bob, but i'd like to think that whatever the outcome it wouldve made no difference, just a little bias that meant nothing in the greater scheme of things.
Bottom line is a lot of damage has been done and im not sure how to react to it, should i stay or should i leave and not risk my subs on a game where balance is everthing, except where it suits others to indulge themselves.
I dont know the full extent of whats happened, and tbh i probably never will, at the end of the day its a sad day for a game that raised the bar to new level and removed the traditional boundries, its f*cked it, it really is.
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Ohmite
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:25:00 -
[355]
Suprisingly no BOB post especially as normally BOB are the first to post on any thread.
I dont expect a post from the BOB management as they are keeping their heads down hoping they dont get their accounts banned, personally if proven they knew what was happening they should get banned, they have done far worse than the whistleblower but are still not banned but he is
I do feel sorry for most of BOB members as they are most likely all innocent of this wrong doing. If I was in a corp that I found my CEO and directors were corrupt and found to be cheating I would be cancelling my roles and leaving immediately. All BOB members now are tarred with the same brush due to a few cheating CEOs, directors and GMs
To others who keep saying it was only a few small bpos what is the fuss about - Ask you self this would you risk your job for that, this is only the tip of the iceburg and T20 has been asked to jump on his sword hoping this will pacify the eve masses - no chance, we want the full story not a white wash
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Dawn Princess
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:26:00 -
[356]
Not impressed. At all.
No Devs playing the game in anything other than EvE University where they can play and help new characters instead of doing all they can to help those that need that help the least.
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Drused
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:26:00 -
[357]
Quote: Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation
Quote: Regrettably, my actions inevitably led to a shadow of suspicion being cast on a number of my co-workers, as well as Reikoku and Band of Brothers. I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing.
I am sorry, CCP, but the second post does not finish this issue. What you are doing is having a single individual sacrifice himself in an attempt to cover up a massive conspiracy and evidence of corruption that cuts into the heart of both the game and CCP as a company.
There are definitely people in BoB who knew about these issues and they not only acted on but also profited from and exploited the connection with CCP. These people are being let go with no punishment.
Furthermore, you have other CCP employees with characters still in BoB and the general playerbase knows about these characters. You are now in the realm of hypocrisy by allowing these people to continue playing their accounts now that they have been compromised.
I also add in allegations that the BoB involvement in CCP goes deeper. I was interviewed and approved to be part of the ISD reporting team. I was asked to send in a list of my alts. These alts included characters that were enemies of BoB. As soon as the ISD team acquired this information, they ignored every single email I sent in after that. This connection, at the moment unsubstantiated because CCP doesnÆt actually investigate allegations, has lost me a chance to have a large company use my writing.
CCP, you cannot let this investigation die in a smokescreen as you attempt to save face. Root out everyone who took advantage of the connections and remove them from the game. Fire t20, he has to go as he is a liability and has no integrity. He has no place working for a company that relies on public trust.
t20, I hope you enjoy retail or a low-level job for some nameless company in the future. You donÆt deserve to work anywhere you can take advantage of your position.
I have since canceled several accounts.
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Griefer Troll
Troll Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:26:00 -
[358]
What a crock of ****.
My synopsis:
Yes the allegations are true, we've kept you waiting for a week to inform you we are going to do absolutely nothing about these incidents except make hollow and useless promises.
We will admit one charge and deny the others which are extremely hard to prove or disprove. We will make one person a scapegoat, to allow others to continue to abuse their priveleged position as they have been doing for years.
Please keep paying for this game, which pays our wages, so we can continue to play god in a world of our own making.
CCP: You kept us waiting a week to tell us this? Your credibility is permanently damaged in my eyes. You are covering up far more than you are admitting, and you have solved nothing. Lucky this is your world of eve we are talking about, where you decide the punishments, because in the real world someone would go to jail for proven misconduct like this, and a large external investigation would be sanctioned, which would no doubt unearth plenty more skeletons.
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:27:00 -
[359]
THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
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Tolin Dorden
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:27:00 -
[360]
Well well.. somehow I'm not surprised.. at all... a sad sad day for ccp and eve...
While we're at this... I am STILL lookin for a reply to the petition I sent to ccp december 6th 2006, regarding issues, with eve radio and eve underground radio. I still haven't gotten a reply to this, and this just yet again makes me put on the tinfoil hat on, and think foul play...
http://www.eve-underground.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=26&func=view&id=2039&catid=2
Thank you so very much ccp for makin us trust in you.... I feel dirty right now... ALL HAIL THE DROMEDARY ALL HAIL THE GOAT ALL HAIL THE ALBATROSS AND DAMN HERE SMELLS OF FISH! |
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:27:00 -
[361]
*snip* A friend of mine used to steal jewelry and sell the items on eBay. When he got caught they took all the jewelry he had away (bpo's) and all the cash he had made (his toons) away from him. They didn't take the money that he paid to his landlord, or didn't take the jewelry he had already sold to people, or didn't take the money back form people he purchased his xbox from using the money he made....
You see what im getting at?
Removed reference to deleted post - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:27:00 -
[362]
Originally by: elohllird
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
QFT
Quit now, because you are involved with people who feel this way. In fact, more of us want him fired than sympathize with him or CCP at this point. I wish we could all go quit together and move to another game and leave the cheaters, the devs, and their sympathizers here. Soon enough something else will come alone with less lag, better graphics, less bugs, and most importantly, INTEGRITY.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Darvin Felth
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:28:00 -
[363]
As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which IÆm truly sorry.
Tuff **** t20 à you knew what would happen when this got out and now you expect the community to forgive you àà get a grip fella if nething you should be packing up your desk and picking up your P45 at the door.
As for this game I play I canÆt say for certain weather I shall continue playing, my faith in CCP is very badly shaken, not only do they try and sweep this under the carpet they also leave it up to one of there own community to uncover it all. Now lets be honest there is no way in hell this would have come to light without a certain whistle-blower doing what he did to uncover it all à
Is this just the tip of the iceberg ??? And will we ever know the real truth???
CCP/t20 how the hell do you sleep at night knowing that you have bent the community over and dry shafted us all...
*watches as Harry sends a little warm present 2 CCP
Smoking Whippets since 1967 ....
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Chronus26
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:28:00 -
[364]
Originally by: ShuPac the3rd
Originally by: Chronus26 Please, put some thought into what you post instead of just jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm not jumping on the bandwagon....I quit!
SirMolle convo me ingame and I will give you all my veldspar I mined for last year and a half...oh wait...you dont need it...I forgt that you can get anything you want via cheating
ups sorry.... i will keep my bits and bytes
Suprprised sombody read what I posted, this must be a first.
To all those crying for the involved alliance to be dissolved/disbanded/deleted/whatever:
Really, please? You think they got where they are today because of the actions of 1 developer? No. they got there throught the hard work and dedication of hundreds of people. Those people should not be punished for actions taken by one person, which the vast majority most likley knew nothing about.
By your logic, if you were unknowingly driving a stolen car you should be thrown in prison for it. Does that sound right? Not to me it doesnt. -----
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Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:28:00 -
[365]
Please do not discuss moderation on the forums - email us instead - Serathu ([email protected])
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Unleashed
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[366]
LOL I bet hes not sorry at all, he got away with a wrist slap when clearly it should have been alot worse than that.
CCP, Im quite surprised that you just let these things just slide, in such a highly competitive market you cannot afford to slip up like this. Shameful. ___
>currently training to level 5: sexual tyrannosaurus / Rank 8 /
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
QFFT!!
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Kernel Sander
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[368]
It would seem that CCP's new policy on cheating is that it is perfectly acceptable to do, and that if you are caught you should apologize as publicly as possible. Having to apologize in public is a total downer, HOWEVER dont worry about it too much because whoever catches you will be banned from the game, so you'll get your revenge in the end.
Those are some pretty sweet new rules.
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Nils Bohr
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Notice no BoB player has shown their face, but a bunch of alts are now arguing that 6 T2 BPO's were "no big deal?"
Seriously guys, you are really not fooling anybody.
Funny how many of them are MC, ain't it?
I guess that argument's settled now.
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DevilHanzo
Gallente Acuario Mining Industries Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
Its not a game to CCP, its a business, its not a game to developers, its their job. Enough said.
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Azaeren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:29:00 -
[371]
So, what about the probable HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of isk they made off those very popular items? ____________________________________________________
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Falryx
Caldari Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:30:00 -
[372]
My overriding comment is:
"Vote with your feet."
If you don't like how this game is run, you should unsubscribe and move on.
Vitriol, whining, piling baseless accusations on top of legitimate ones so that neither can be discerned in the pile, and basically armchair CEOing a business entity subject to the employment law of a sovereign State of which nearly no one here is a citizen... these aren't things that actually provide value.
Vote with your feet.
My feet? They're staying. Any damage I perceive from events like this is far outweighed by the benefit I perceive from having developers deeply, fully involved with the game. I think it's one reason EVE is the best game of its genre and will live well beyond any reasonable expectation.
Thanks for the update, kieron.
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PDoggy
Minmatar Valid Character Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:30:00 -
[373]
Edited by: PDoggy on 09/02/2007 22:30:32 It's nice that there's finally an apology going out, but how much of one is it? At first it was deny deny deny, and when kieron posted his thread in CAOD, 24 pages of demanding blood and Band of Developers trying to run damage control followed, so here came the dev blog. This leaves me with a few questions.
Could you make it any more obvious? The reason that apology was posted wasn't because he was sorry, it was because he got caught. He was the only one publicised. How do we know this kind of garbage isn't still going on? If people hadn't still been ****ed off after kieron's thread, would this ever have come out*? What about the BPOs? No, this is another case of the Angel 8/10s and CCP only doing the right thing when they're caught doing the wrong. The only reason he says "I was acting alone" is because no logs of anyone else were made public, and I can tell this is going to come back and bite you in the ass one day when kugutsumen gets bored again.
What about kugutsumen? The allegations were, as has been admitted, true. So, how about his five banned accounts then? Surely he's only been doing the community (and YOUR INTEGRITY) a service in bringing this to light?
*Officially, I mean
Edit: There isn't a swear-word in this post, there isn't a troll, there are only simple questions. Don't "moderate" this. - Wait for your email, do not put it back - Ductoris |
Durgan Kael
Gallente Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:30:00 -
[374]
What a copout. Issuing a most sincere apology for the most minor infraction anyone knows about. Why should we be taking focus off daily (Yes, DAILY) incursions on the trust of the player community? Spawnings used to clear gatecamps? Obvious leaks of information? An INGAME BANNING for of an OUT OF GAME activity? Cripes, just when you think you've found a company that actually runs its game the right way, these things come to light.
You cross these boundaries, and you're crossing the line between this being a game and it not. How long do you think it'll be before people die over this? Look at the news. It's already happened in other games. True to this need to accept EVE as a game, I wouldn't call for anyone to be fired, but I will call for a major change in how employees involve themselves...
For the good of this community, EVE developers must have some connection to its players. That's understandable. But for the good of it, they must have DETATCHMENT as well: No control or sway over conquerable zones, no political relations with player-built organizations, and certainly, God help us all, NO INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER IN COMBAT, INDUSTRY, OR THE ECONOMY. It's one thing to speak with players, hear their desires and complaints, and use these to build a better game. It's quite another to change the playing field by aiding any players in any way.
BoB may or may not be good enough to have gained and maintained control over what they have. If we had the surety of mind that there was never any CCP involvement in their gain, that might not be called into question at all. Because of this, and so many other undocumented or silenced incidents, this otherwise powerful, reputable alliance can never truly and fully be accepted as legitimate. If anyone from BoB has a complaint on that statement, they are best to direct it at CCP, or any among them that incited CCP's support of their goals.
I also want to personally congratulate the hacker that broke BoB's forums and brought this to light, and thank him for the sacrifice he made in doing so. He no doubt knew that this would've been coming. That, CCP, is dedication to a community.
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Arian Snow
The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:30:00 -
[375]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:31:00 -
[376]
Originally by: gordon cain Anyone have an external link or anything to the original thread from Kugutsumen or can anyone fill me in plz.
On topic: Sad day, not enough concequence. I have been a victim of this coverup thing myself back with the drone bug. I learned it doesnt matter really in the end cause they just stop it and remove it if needed.
There should be no differences between if you come from a well known alliance or a noob corp.
All equal!
Gordon
I'd link one, but it'd get removed seeing as how it's apparently against the forum rules. However, if you take the guy's name, and add the most common domain name extension to it, you might get what you want.
(I guess playing hints would be against forum rules too...) ...Free Kugutsumen... |
Knerf
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:31:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Originally by: DaHeaVYFo Mass-hysteria for the loose! Let's all wait and see how it unfolds. I'm sure CCP was a bit premature with their audit...
Lose. Loose = Not Tight.
Fire T20. Disband RKK. Right Your Wrongs.
*snip* Its not like its RKK's fault for t20 cheating. Why would RKK be punished because someone else cheated, its not like RKK made t20 cheat. Even if the leaders of RKK knew about it, morality is not the same as legality.
Not to mention the other "allegations" on that idiots site are personal matters which if discussed publicly would mean CCP does not respect thier own Privacy policy... A far worse crime considering they have my credit info, if ya ask me.
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
because they didnt say no when they were given the option, its cheating plain and simple, thats how you blame them,
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:32:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Laendra
Originally by: Raketefrau Edited by: Raketefrau on 09/02/2007 20:52:27 I don't understand why the whistleblower is being punished.
He rooted out wrongdoing, CCP was actually forced to take action, and for that he gets banned? If he hadn't outed the toons (who had already outed themselves to their corpmates), none of these "illegal" activities would have come to light, and CCP would still be sweeping everything under the rug.
Kugutsmen, I appreciate what you've done for the Eve community. It's a pity CCP can't see it that way.
How much similar activity is going on that we don't know about? This one case gets revealed, and CCP, after being dragged hesitantly through the mud, reaches out with a horrible reaction.
How do we know that this isn't continuing to happen elsewhere in the universe? What faith are now supposed to have in CCP's watchguarding abilities?
How are we supposed to trust the fact that CCP isn't sweeping other, lesser-known "crimes" under the rug as well?
You honestly can't see why he was banned? Regardless of his intentions, he hurt the community. He had to know that his actions would hurt the community as a whole. And he revealed Dev player accounts, knowingly, even those that were not involved in any wrongdoing, f****** those devs over in the process. For those actions alone, he should be perma-banned.
One could draw up numerous r/l comparisons here, but to summarize...the ends do not justify the means....ever.
Riiii-ight. Telling the truth hurts the community.
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PDoggy
Minmatar Valid Character Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:32:00 -
[379]
Edited by: PDoggy on 09/02/2007 22:29:29
Originally by: Falryx My overriding comment is:
"Vote with your feet."
If you don't like how this game is run, you should unsubscribe and move on.
Vitriol, whining, piling baseless accusations on top of legitimate ones so that neither can be discerned in the pile, and basically armchair CEOing a business entity subject to the employment law of a sovereign State of which nearly no one here is a citizen... these aren't things that actually provide value.
Vote with your feet.
My feet? They're staying. Any damage I perceive from events like this is far outweighed by the benefit I perceive from having developers deeply, fully involved with the game. I think it's one reason EVE is the best game of its genre and will live well beyond any reasonable expectation.
Thanks for the update, kieron.
I'm staying in EVE because I like this game, I like the people in my corp and I like the people in my alliance. I don't like the people running EVE. And as for best game of it's genre - what other space MMOs are there? SWG? What a goddamned joke. - Wait for your email, do not put it back - Ductoris |
dokkillo
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:32:00 -
[380]
Removed reference to deleted post - Serathu ([email protected])
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General Xenophon
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:33:00 -
[381]
This issue already has drawn a great deal of attention to it. I am not going to be suprised if this causes CCP some really BAD PR for the game.
Not very good for getting more people to play.
I suggest you use this event to clean up your ranks, otherwise Eve may fall behind in getting more people to play.
I agree with other posters. It is not wise to punish the whistle-blowers especially where this WILL hurt ones reputation if the whistle-blowers are proven correct.
Irregardless of the BPOs value, the event itself leaves a horrible taint on Eve.
Again, let's learn from this and move on. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Boondock Saints |
Doctor Zemmen
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[382]
1) It has been said in the past that any employee found in violation of the basic rules governing player accounts would be terminated. This is not the first time something like this has happened. Is the employee being terminated? Do the rules only apply when they are conveinent?
2) Knowing that the punishment could be termination, the BPO's in question seem like a very small amount for the risk involved. I consider this to be "disclosure damage control." I doubt anyone would place their job and their career in jeopardy over the items listed. How much deaper does it really go?
3) How many more of these occurances go undiscovered? When the GM gave himself a faction BS, fully faction fitted, CCP ensured us that something like that could never happen as all employee player accounts are audited on a regular basis. It was stated that even without the player complaint the GM would have been caught when the audit guys looked over the logs. Once again we find ourselves in a similar situation, and it took a player to bring it to CCP's attention. This guy didn't just give himself these BPO's, they must have been there for a long time. When was the audit actually going to catch him? I find very little faith in either the system of audit that CCP uses or in the people responsible.
4) CCP, your "internal affairs" division is a joke. You have friends policing friends. These people all work together and go out and drink together. Do you really expect any of us to buy into this? Outsource the "weekly" log checking to someone who is not the cousin of the guy breaking the rules.
5) For those of you that says CCP does not have the responsibility to answer to us: Then who do they answer to? We are their customers. Nobody wants to quit playing this game, but we do expect a degree of accountabilty from the developers. This is not a free game. There is real money involved, and fraud is a serious matter. CCP knows this.
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Blue Rayes
Revenge Taste Like Chicken
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[383]
This is a loose loose situation.....
No matter if this is the whole truth or not the gap between BOB with friends and the hate/dislike BOB is bigger than ever.
BOB and friends will go on saying tinfoil hat and we never do anything outside the rules of the game and so on.....
BOB enemies will go on with saying that the truth never got out , that there's more to the this than was unfold....
Makes me wonder what CCP acctully can do to satisfy the whole community...
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Kalimac Brandagamba
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[384]
I bet they're all away for the weekend and won't reply to any of this.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Xelios 11 pages in an hour and a half, that must be some kind of record
for every page i read 2 more spawn
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OMG
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[386]
Here's a nice link for all those wanting t20's head: Double Jeopardy
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[387]
Originally by: aggro the bpo returns is a start.
but the money made from that which must be billions. will this be returned. i very much doubt it. so the damage has been done.
what is keiron answer to this question
It's a problem much like the bugged Angels and Drone plexes. It's simply impossible to track all of that down, no system on the planet is sophisticated enough to do it.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:34:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
We need this questions to have adressed in a dev blog ASAP!!!!!
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dokkillo
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:35:00 -
[389]
T20 destroyed all eve community... thats the true.. what happen the next time of bob earns a powerfull bpo? or the next battle? or something....
no more trust... :(
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TRIGGER
Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:35:00 -
[390]
Im personally disgusted .
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smeggy
Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps 5th Column
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:36:00 -
[391]
Edited by: smeggy on 09/02/2007 22:35:48 hellmar you as ceo must understand how investers see your company right now this is going around the mmpog community like wild fire. Like most companies and corperations in the world they stop their employies from being able to be participate in their products. This is done because of confilict of interest. Im sure the Amereican company white wolf are worried about your position in the game at the moment.
I suggest you do the right thing for the community and the game stop your employies from playing this game before you guys make yourselves look even worse in the mmpog community.
To lose a multi million pound company because your too stuborn to do the right thing is dumb as ceo engage brain before people cancel accounts and this ends up like planetside because your employies ruin the game more.
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End Solution
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:36:00 -
[392]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Gaia Thorn
Mentally Unstable Enterprises Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:36:00 -
[393]
First thanks for having the courage to admit this to bad it's being forced by your own community. I have several questions really.
1. Why ban kugutsumen ? it was never proven that he "hacked" rkk forums. And if it was proven that he hacked he should be banned BUT then everything he posted should be treated as factional evidence .
2. Why isnt Sirmolle banned ? He knew that several people in his alliance were DEV's used it to his advantage and posted personal information about a person on the forums. 3. Is T20 fired from CCP ? if not Why ? 4. How do we know that the DEV's accounts is banned and not just renamed ? 5. What is going to be changed to prevent this from happening again in the future ?
For me this is the day eve community died im never gonna have the same respect for dev,gm's. CCP just went from a friendly corp doing something diffrent to just another money grabbing vulture.
Mentally Unstable Enterprises Forum
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Citizen X
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:36:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Citizen X on 09/02/2007 22:34:02 The dev needs to be fired ASAP. If did such a thing to my database, I would be in jail. No there is no little fraud or or big fraud. Its either fraud or it isnt. This was. End of story.
CCP need to think about the trust in the game. Something that can slip away fast....
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PDoggy
Minmatar Valid Character Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:37:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Blue Rayes This is a loose loose situation.....
No matter if this is the whole truth or not the gap between BOB with friends and the hate/dislike BOB is bigger than ever.
BOB and friends will go on saying tinfoil hat and we never do anything outside the rules of the game and so on.....
BOB enemies will go on with saying that the truth never got out , that there's more to the this than was unfold....
Makes me wonder what CCP acctully can do to satisfy the whole community...
Full internal audit by an independent tribunal of EVE players around Iceland, representing a variety of 0.0 Alliances and empire corps too. Full access to logs of all dev activity. Just like in that episode of Battlestar Galactica, except without the dramatic dissolve. That'd make most people happy, I should think, except the doubtless dozens of other devs who would end up getting caught because of it. - Wait for your email, do not put it back - Ductoris |
Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:38:00 -
[396]
Edited by: Sephiraa on 09/02/2007 22:35:06
Originally by: Popsikle Its not like its RKK's fault for t20 cheating. Why would RKK be punished because someone else cheated, its not like RKK made t20 cheat. Even if the leaders of RKK knew about it, morality is not the same as legality.
Nor is it like T20 made the Directors of RKK share accounts, but if the T20 info is true, it strongly suggests that information is equally true. Why is the BoB alliance allowed to share accounts while others are banned.
The EULA states:
Quote: You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited.
Quote: You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA.
BoB: EVOL and RKK, require 'communist' pilots to give their account info to the Directors with the understanding that those accounts will be shared, and many of us can quote the relevant part, if 3rd party quotes were allowed on this forum. That account sharing practice is against the EULA and should be punished in the same manner that all account sharing for other players has been punished. With Bans. That, or all players who have been banned for account sharing should have their characters reinstated. It's not fair if BoB gets to play by different rules than the rest of us.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:38:00 -
[397]
Originally by: OMG Here's a nice link for all those wanting t20's head: Double Jeopardy
I don't think Double Jeopardy applies when the first "trial" is all your friends and colleagues secretly telling you "hey man, we know you did bad, but we're not going to do anything about it, OK?"
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Evil Thug
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:38:00 -
[398]
I`m fine with devs spawning bpo for themselves. If those devs are in corps, that don`t play significant roles in 0.0 policy.
But i`m unable to understand following things : - Why do you need to cheat if you are already in good corp with access to profitable 0.0 space ? - 6 months of owning sabre bpo. Sabres currently selling for 30m isk, and you are able to build 2.5 sabres \ day. Its around 13.5b, or minerals for mothership. What are you going to do with those money ? Please, keep in mind, that you are made already strong corp more stronger. - Why community needed to raise this question multiple times, with involving many major fractions (goons for example) to receive answers from you, CCP ?
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Raindrop
LittleHauling Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:38:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Raindrop on 09/02/2007 22:35:03 CCP should deal with the aparent account sharing that has been going on in this case. And follow their own rules. Or be the laughing stock of um well everyone. Oh and turn eve too into a laughing stock.
You have rules and you apply them strictly or you might aswell have no rules at all. Except for show value. (Look mom with rules!)
Same goes with T20 nail each and every nail as hard as you did with the others. Or stop hammering them period. Raindrop
It only takes a raindrop to cool the market.
100% Carebear and loving it. Trader. Hauler.
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Valekrin Ziemisra
12-Gauge
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:38:00 -
[400]
The thing is: t20 gets banned/removed/deleted whatever, with access to BoB's resources and being a member in high standing, they can buy a pretty nice toon off eve-o for maybe what, 3bil?
Free Kevin Mitnick! oh wait :P
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:39:00 -
[401]
Warning Conspiracy Theory below:
Anyone have the feeling that EVE-Online itself could potentially be one of the biggest SCAMS known to man?
CCP creates a game. A game they intend to play. A game they intend to influence. We know the devs were gankers in UO, we know their sick people when it comes to games. What might stop them from pushing this game to the point where they never lose? We are paying them for a service (EVE). Are we also paying them in-game to be their pawns? Is CCP playing us?
I guess we'll never know. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Zyta Eke
Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:39:00 -
[402]
Originally by: smeggy do the right thing for the community and the game stop your employies from playing this game before you guys make yourselves look even worse in the mmpog.
You want a game developed by people who don't even play it? Really? Are you sure? You know it'll suck, right?
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:39:00 -
[403]
How about an investigation into the systematic abuse of the Eve client by Goonswarm? That was well-documented, screenshots and all.
The hypocrisy of the Goonies in calling for blood here, after flagrantly cheating for months and months is laughable, if it weren't someone's RL job they were after.
If t20 goes, so should every single member of Goonswarm.
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Naadam
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:40:00 -
[404]
This situation with a single Dev speaking up and claiming to have acted on his own is CCP attempting damage control on a massive scale.
CCP is corrupt through its core and needs to implement massive changes to fix their mistakes.
One of those changes is the banning of everyone who took advantage of having a Dev in their alliance.
Another change is that CCP needs to remove all current player accounts completely. They need to completely wipe out all their characters. They can start over. However, they need to never be allowed in alliances. There is no reason for them to be in an alliance.
My accounts are gone until I see something change.
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Suliban Silk
Minmatar Band of Devs
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:40:00 -
[405]
I fear this goes far deeper than we will ever know.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:40:00 -
[406]
Originally by: dokkillo T20 destroyed all eve community... thats the true.. what happen the next time of bob earns a powerfull bpo? or the next battle? or something....
no more trust... :(
Isn't ALL a big word to use? I mean there are plenty of people who aren't destroyed by this.
Besides all the people who are complaining and whining and *****ing could cancel thier accounts, wouldn't that solve your "distrust" or "hatred" for CCP?
It would sure make a lot better conversations around these forums, like they used to be back around release ;( __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:40:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Doctor Zemmen 3) How many more of these occurances go undiscovered? When the GM gave himself a faction BS, fully faction fitted, CCP ensured us that something like that could never happen as all employee player accounts are audited on a regular basis. It was stated that even without the player complaint the GM would have been caught when the audit guys looked over the logs. Once again we find ourselves in a similar situation, and it took a player to bring it to CCP's attention. This guy didn't just give himself these BPO's, they must have been there for a long time. When was the audit actually going to catch him? I find very little faith in either the system of audit that CCP uses or in the people responsible.
It sounds like he was caught, LAST SUMMER. However, CCP decided to do absolutely nothing about it and it took the community finding out before something was actually done. This gives us absolutely no reason why CCP should ever be trusted in matters such as this since their track record shows a complete willingness to ABSOLUTELY ABANDON THEIR OWN RULES when it is found convenient for them.
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Marquis Dean
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:41:00 -
[408]
Good God, it's a game. Maybe he should lose his job, maybe he shouldn't. It sure as hell isn't up to you lot.
This is a worrying thread to read, I think maybe you all need to step away from your computers and get to know your friends and family again. ------ ------
Originally by: Crag Heyder I'm not talking FPS here, it's SPF.
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:41:00 -
[409]
Anyone saying t20 shouldn't lose his job needs to move out of their parents house and work in the real world for 5 minutes.
Not only MUST he lose his job, he can never work in the games industry again. He's broken the most basic trust his job entailed.
I work with, amongst other things, class A drugs. We use some chemicals in some of the research we do because they are nessecary to our work. ******* is the example that will be most familiar to most of you. If I EVER took some of that 100% pure, medical grade ******* for my own use, either to take or to sell, then my job would be forfeit, and rightly so. I'd also get prosecuted if caught. I would also never work as a scientist again. My ability to operate with trust would be gone forever. That's what t20 has done. Back to burger-flipping I'm afraid - harsh, yes, and I do feel deeply sorry for you t20, you must be in a world of **** now.
Now, onto the real problem.
BoB.
Profits from the BPOs. If these aren't reclaimed then EVE is dead. No trust, no faith, no fairness, no level playing field. Everything EVE stood for gone.
And yeah, I'll cancel my 3 accounts over this, as will a lot of people I'm sure. Nasty taste left in my mouth, for sure.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:41:00 -
[410]
Originally by: smeggy Edited by: smeggy on 09/02/2007 22:35:48 hellmar you as ceo must understand how investers see your company right now this is going around the mmpog community like wild fire. Like most companies and corperations in the world they stop their employies from being able to be participate in their products. This is done because of confilict of interest. Im sure the Amereican company white wolf are worried about your position in the game at the moment.
I suggest you do the right thing for the community and the game stop your employies from playing this game before you guys make yourselves look even worse in the mmpog community.
To lose a multi million pound company because your too stuborn to do the right thing is dumb as ceo engage brain before people cancel accounts and this ends up like planetside because your employies ruin the game more.
Smeggy, Most MMO games are played by the Devs/GMs/FOrum mods...
I actually cant think of one that isnt.... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
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Prophetic
Gallente Homeworld Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:42:00 -
[411]
RE those proclaiming kuguts being a white knight in this matter. These allegations were brought to light after his attempts at blackmail failed.... He had every intention of keeping this info to himself had he gotten the payment he wished for.
Those of you thinking he did this because he cares about the integrity of this game are completely off base. He doesn't care. He blackmailed and it didn't work, so he set out to destroy his target another way.
Say what you wish about these blogs, etc... but don't delude yourself into thinking he is your savior. he is a criminal. Nothing more then a common criminal with a fetish for attention.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:42:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Evil Thug I`m fine with devs spawning bpo for themselves. If those devs are in corps, that don`t play significant roles in 0.0 policy.
But i`m unable to understand following things : - Why do you need to cheat if you are already in good corp with access to profitable 0.0 space ? - 6 months of owning sabre bpo. Sabres currently selling for 30m isk, and you are able to build 2.5 sabres \ day. Its around 13.5b, or minerals for mothership. What are you going to do with those money ? Please, keep in mind, that you are made already strong corp more stronger. - Why community needed to raise this question multiple times, with involving many major fractions (goons for example) to receive answers from you, CCP ?
I think we should all give Mr. K a round of applause. Because CCP couldn't keep its house in order, he stuck his neck out to expose this corruption. Rather than congratulate him, they banned five of his accounts.
Is that how you repay a whistleblower?
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SNeAkYbRiT
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:42:00 -
[413]
Well??? upto p14 and not a word, this is not enough, you have opened this up now tell the truth what else did BoB get and why the hell should we trust what u say from now on? you've kept this hidden for so long.
Oh BoB leaders ya all cheating scum. thats if i didnt mention it before :) Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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Skooney
Gallente Universal Agencies
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:42:00 -
[414]
I just hope that all of you that are being so critical of T20 and CCP remember this when one of you, makes a bad decision in life.
It was a mistake, it has been corrected, lets move on and play the game.
T20 - As far as I am concerned, it takes a real man/woman to stand up and "take it on the chin" - Forgiven!
Let's play EVE!
Universal Agencies
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Sebo Darrens
FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:42:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Popsikle *snip* A friend of mine used to steal jewelry and sell the items on eBay. When he got caught they took all the jewelry he had away (bpo's) and all the cash he had made (his toons) away from him. They didn't take the money that he paid to his landlord, or didn't take the jewelry he had already sold to people, or didn't take the money back form people he purchased his xbox from using the money he made....
You see what im getting at?
He also probably went to jail (fired)
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Reevus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:43:00 -
[416]
CCP, you have to be joking.
This case of a single person taking the brunt of the fall is stereotypical corporate coverup and damage control.
FFS have some integrety. Ban everyone involved in this cheating. Stop trying to play this off as being a single person when it is multiple devs and multiple instances of cheating.
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Abiel Mordecai
Gallente Wings of Redemption
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:43:00 -
[417]
t20 should be fired, that's company policy and no matter how much everyone loves him on a personal level, it's the right thing to do. We shouldn't make exceptions in any case. You break the rules, you get punished. That's the message CCP needs to send out to all it's staff and volunteers or people aren't gonna take the rules seriously, that's basic business management, heck, it's basic life skills. If you act weak, people will see you as weak and you will be weak, and people will continue to walk all over you and cheat and ruin the paying customers' game. I'm sorry, t20, but what you did is unacceptable, the community knows it, CCP knows it, and now (only because it's all been revealed) you know it too. You reap what you sow, and you are a cheat and a thief.
Also: what's all this about...
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Like a lot of people I'm getting really really sick of hearing this kind of thing and I'm even more sick of hearing BoB's got something to do with it. Why don't the devs and GM's get out of BoB? Are all the devs in BoB because they're the most powerful alliance or is BoB the most powerful alliance becasue all the devs are in it? Unacceptable CCP, and you know it.
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DGWabbit
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:44:00 -
[418]
This is truly sad. Developers are ruining their own game, yes all of them.
-T20, STOLE from the community. There is no other way to look at it. Regardless of which T2 BPO's they are, those are still T2 BPO's which are incredibly rare for any player and meant to be won by a lottery. Spawning items throws off balance, regardless.
-This also doesn't cover anything else that could have been spawned from T1 Capital Ship BPO's as well as spawning ships themselves as well as mods to equip them.
-This is just one Dev, what about the others and GM's which can apparently spawn where-ever, what-ever they want.
-Why aren't the actual players who worked with this Dev, who were knowingly aware were cheating and stealing in this game, NOT being punished?
-What about the Alliance Tounry's and results? See the questions this will begin to raise?
-Why the hell does half my gang crash when we encounter a bob gang? never happens with anyone else >.<
-The rest of the Dev's, why are you allowing this person to keep working for this company and allow him to "play the game" when he simply did nothing but ruin it. Punishment shouldn't be sidestepped simply because he's a Dev, he's risking the credibility of this game and the company!!!
I'm not here to flame or tell people what to do, these are simply questions and comments that are meant to question the future of this game, as I do feel CCP could still possibly remedy this issue. I personally wouldn't see any reason to continue playing a game when I'm going to be ridiculed by the developers, anyone else who knows this might wish to ask themselves the same question.
This needs to be linked to the other forum sections, linked on the Eve Login, and linked on the Eve Character Selection screen. The community has a right to know about this and should know about this.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:44:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Sephiraa Edited by: Sephiraa on 09/02/2007 22:35:06
Originally by: Popsikle Its not like its RKK's fault for t20 cheating. Why would RKK be punished because someone else cheated, its not like RKK made t20 cheat. Even if the leaders of RKK knew about it, morality is not the same as legality.
Nor is it like T20 made the Directors of RKK share accounts, but if the T20 info is true, it strongly suggests that information is equally true. Why is the BoB alliance allowed to share accounts while others are banned.
The EULA states:
Quote: You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited.
Quote: You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA.
BoB: EVOL and RKK, require 'communist' pilots to give their account info to the Directors with the understanding that those accounts will be shared, and many of us can quote the relevant part, if 3rd party quotes were allowed on this forum. That account sharing practice is against the EULA and should be punished in the same manner that all account sharing for other players has been punished. With Bans. That, or all players who have been banned for account sharing should have their characters reinstated. It's not fair if BoB gets to play by different rules than the rest of us.
Ok yes, I know, ive already said that. But the privacy policy states information regarding actions taken against players will remain private. So who is to know if they have banned accounts or whatever for it, nobody.
And thats the way it should be. If T20 is messing around with in game stuff, thats fine, as long as CCP is not breaking the privacy policy they have, as I trust them with my credit information...... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Cyberus
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:45:00 -
[420]
Edited by: Cyberus on 09/02/2007 22:42:04 Hmmm i think loosing the job will be too much. Give him some good penalty and other task in office and let him prove that he change. Sad that all things what was told about BOB before and now seems to me more true then lies. Silly...
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UKM Thorgrim
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:45:00 -
[421]
Fraud & Deseption, on a grand Scale..
Honour & Steel. |
Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:45:00 -
[422]
Unban the whistle blower and this matter can be closed
Retired [ISSN]
[Video] Skool of Harpy - Da Blarpy |
Ascend Alt
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:45:00 -
[423]
CCP = Credibility Completely Pwnd?
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Gungankllr
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[424]
I'm one of those few people that doesn't think T20 should be sent packing.
I've made some pretty heinous mistakes in my life, a few of those at work.
I know T20 has worked his ass off for this game, and I appreciate all the time and effort he has put into this passtime we call Eve.
That being said, the moniker T20 needs to disappear, because the masses have themselves a Frankenstein to be all worked up over.
I think it's none of our damn business how CCP disciplines its employees. I'm sure that there will be some repercussions to this.
I care more that everything else that was brought up is investigated and either proven or disproven, so we can all move on with our lives to something more important, like counting macrominers.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 09/02/2007 22:43:08
Originally by: Skooney I just hope that all of you that are being so critical of T20 and CCP remember this when one of you, makes a bad decision in life.
It was a mistake, it has been corrected, lets move on and play the game.
T20 - As far as I am concerned, it takes a real man/woman to stand up and "take it on the chin" - Forgiven!
Let's play EVE!
In my job, if I inadvertently leave the wrong CD in the wrong place accidentally and the wrong person picks it up, I'm fired and I might even go to jail.
t20 willfully subverted the system for his own personal gain, and then later for the gain of his friends in BoB.
He should be removed with extreme prejudice.
By the way, I still haven't heard about what's going to be done about that GM that was scouting our POS in 28Y.
-dbp
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Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[426]
Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Blog
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Gauwyn Morley
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Gauwyn Morley on 09/02/2007 22:45:38 Seriously, you people make me sick. Your acting like the world is coming to an end..we can never trust you blah blah blah.
One guy, made a mistake. If I thought his actions in anyway effected the outcome of anything BoB did, then I would be upset. However in my mind what he did was so small in comparision to what BoB does and will do, that at best he generated personal income for himself.
I am saddend that we lost a freind, and no, in over 2 years being in BoB I have never known anyone to be a dev. I for one pride myself in flying with a group of people who continually beat the odds, best groups of people and strive to complete a goal.
Your nothing better then a lynching mob. Asking for money in retribution from BoB is just sick. It is impossible, I would then demand that, anyone who bought said items from BoB be penalized as well and the people who dealt with them and so on.
Cheating cannot happen, it decreases the value of what BoB does. Records should be kept of everything that is generated into the game from an outside source and reviewed. Should characters have there game characters monitored....sure. But to stop them from playing the game? Impossible, the game would suffer..you had better believe there is a DEV and GM in EVERY COOL KID ALLIANCE. Any Alliance that pushes the boundries of the game and plays the game to the max is going to demand the attention of the people who created the game.
The policies CCP has in place..are sufficient. Assuming things like this are caught quicker.
Some of you are just ****ed off you feel left out. Especially that hacker kid, all of his actions scream..I want to be a cool kid..
Your fools being fed propaganda by someone with there own agenda.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[428]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Skaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[429]
As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which IÆm truly sorry.
This sounds like a certain politician in Iceland who was convicted for abusing his position and now is a shoe-in for parliment again.
My first response as I read this : "Throw him out the airlock"
Barbaric but one that echoes the community response, as there will be no trust, no respect for t20 for a long long time, CCP would be wise to ship him off to China where is past won't be as much of a problem.
But I'm surpised as to how willingly CCP throws him to the wolves now as this happened in June and according to Hellmar took quite a time to gestate to this point.
Human nature suggests that there's more than meets the eye here. But this might be all...
Anyway he'll be punished and hopefully his coworkers look at him as dishonest rather than the one of them who got caught. - -
PINK PINK PINK PINK |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:46:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Milena Marich Referee's don't play on a football team. Referee's don't play on a football team. How hard is to understand that?
Referees don't develop the game design of football. Both referees and the people who do make the rules should know how to play football though, even though it's a game far, far less complicated than EVE is. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
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Cyberus
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[431]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[432]
A total disgrace.
Absolutely nothing has been resolved. Far more is waiting to be uncovered, and far too little punishment has been handed out, both to those willingly receiving the proceeds of actions they knew to be fraudulent, and to the person commiting these actions.
Is there some kind of higher subscription I can pay to get a Dev to help my alliance out? A few T2 bpos to profit off for a few years would be great. Having a Dev leading our fleets, that would be real handy too.
Your 'resolution' to these events is an absolute sham, and an insult to the people who have paid their hard earned money to finance the wages of a dishonest and dishonourable cheat. Like I said, a disgrace.
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Dyrn Zyr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[433]
Edited by: Dyrn Zyr on 09/02/2007 22:44:09 My 2 cents and a suggestion.
Internal checks and balances were supposedly in place before recent events and the more recent seemingly reluctant exposure of a corrupt dev. Your proposed go-forward solution--more formalized internal affairs checks--while leaving the source of potential future problems, continued developer-player presence, in place, i.e., trust us to get it right this time and you won't get porked again, leaves a lot to be desired.
A simple, but perhaps expensive counterproposal: create a new server environment to allow those who don't want to underwrite the corruption risk under the "trust us" regime and deny admission of dev-player characters to that server. Dev-players can still experience all of the first hand game content and frustrations on the tainted server and participate in alliances, politics, etc. to their heart's content there. Expensive? Probably. Would it leave TQ somewhat vacant due to the distrust and lack of confidence spurred by recent events? Maybe. Would it penalize the collateral beneficiaries of the misdeeds? Maybe. Would it give presently disillusioned players a plausible alternative to voting with their wallets? Yep.
I know you are hard core anti-shard design, but perhaps the time has come that this concept might make sense after what has happened. It could provide side benefits of thinning out the server populations out a bit.
Just a thought.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[434]
How to reply... It bothers me that it took 6 months to "fix" this... but it is not a surprise, I deal with the same issue IRL... Everyone starts out pointing fingers and blaming others until the proof is laid in front of their faces... even then some still deny it.
T20 has showed an inherent flaw in the T-2 Lotto system, it needs to be revamped and revamped soon... his pilfered BPO's were returned... so what... the fix is to devalue them (the BPO's) and simply add them to the market (in any system that could in any way have them) so anyone that wants can buy them.
Should he lose his job? Yes he should, but I figure he is now the least likely to offend again because he will be watched like a hawk. So if he is allowed to remain employed, I hope he sees how lucky he is.
As I read the posts on this thread, I saw post after post about how bad CCP looks because of this... to those folks, vote with your bucks, go find another game... personally, I like Eve, so I am inclined to give CCP the benefit of the doubt.
Here is my next assignment for T20, not that I can assign anyone anything, design the T-2 BPO system as a reward for R&D, not as a lottery... lottery's can be fixed, instead, the R&D agents need to randomly award the T-2 BPO's that they "Control" to those who are working with them or (slightly higher chance) as a reward for the missions they request.
Fix the system so that this can never happen again...
Noob in training...
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Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[435]
Eve has wrought what it has sown. We all know that Eve supports corp theft, scheming other players, piracy and out right grief play, and many devs play pirates. Some would claim that Eve was created for pirates. We should not be surprised that it has lead to this level of meta-gaming. Even those that create and manage the game have fallen victim to the seduction of the dark side. Perhaps it is time, within the game world, to start treating criminals like criminals instead of coddling them. Change the paradigm slightly. Let players be pirates, let them be corp thieves, but don't just hand it to them with backwards security status rules and lacking corp security options. Stop giving the aggressor the majority of the advantages.
How does this relate to the current situation you ask. Well to say it again, change the paradigm slightly in the hopes that rewarding good behavior in game leads to good behavior out of game. I can see the asshatery crowd groaning now, well, I don't really care about your feelings since you sure as hell don't care about mine.
We have a situation where he motivation to cheat was so high that it was done. That motivation not only comes from we individuals, but also the environment in which we find our selves. If the environment promotes it, then players will do it. The out of game behaviors of some people, and abuse of in game powers by some people is out of hand. CCP will loose a slice of its net worth (Good Will) because of all of this and will probably loose some subscribers as well. Right now the game is generating web site hackers, liars, hacking accounts, CCP employees manipulating the game world, the volunteer program being used as scouts, the test server being abused for advanced knowledge of game mechanics. Some of these things are international crimes folks.
Eve is a good game, one of the things that makes it good is the fact that there is real risk. But who should bear the burden of the risk, the criminal or the victim?
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[436]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Ascend Alt
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:47:00 -
[437]
Edited by: Ascend Alt on 09/02/2007 22:50:21 off topic, and wasnt as funny as i thought when i read it :(
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Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:48:00 -
[438]
Edited by: Grez on 09/02/2007 22:50:18
Originally by: Jonas O'Fall Since the BPOs were illegitimate, what is the fate of the profits that were gained from their use?
I'd love to know this as well. They've gained ISK/items through these BPO's for the time they've had them (including the ability to make runs). What's going to happen to the ISK made? I dare not even think about having to trawl through all those logs.
This effects more than just BoB. Since BPO runs can be sold on the market, which can be purchased by a new player, which in turn, means he produces that item, and uses it, or sells it.
Some sort of compensation to the playerbase would be nice.
I also agree that the whistleblower on all of this, should be unbanned. It's true, he went against the ToS, and went out of his way to un-spin this web and reveal Dev accounts, but a member of CCP's staff also abused some power. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I believe in this case, he's done the community a service in stopping this, and has also done you (CCP) a service in bringing this to light.
There also needs to be far, far, far more thorough checks in the future. Everytime a Dev creates an item, it should not be allowed to be traded, or put on market unless several other developers have allowed it via some in-house permissioning tool - this way, such a way of creating items in-game can be monitored and policed easier. ---
Cache Clearer |
nickky01
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:48:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
your actually saying that the entire BoB alliance is claiming ignorance when when HOW many people called you cheaters?
how many posts in the corp and alliances forums call you guys out? how many times in how many threads did people say that...and only NOW it "sickens and saddens" you?
pfft -------------------------------------------
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
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Margie Devilie
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:48:00 -
[440]
surely this accounts as insider trading which is a criminal offence being virtual or not
the game is greatly isk genarated and money = power and t2 bpo = money no matter what type they are
trust was abused
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Ghitza
Backup Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:48:00 -
[441]
Edited by: Ghitza on 09/02/2007 22:45:47 This devblog convinces me only that there IS/WAS for sure something WRONG about devs/GMs abuse of power. Its a sad day in CCP/EVE history, its a shame, no mather what other 'SMART' ppl will say.
edit : smart -> 'smart'
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Orree
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:48:00 -
[442]
There are no "logs" for the passing of inside information on game mechanics and events. No surprise nothing can be found there. Where there would be logs...something was found. Shocking.
That said...simply disgusting and totally not surprising.
These are my views, not those of my corporation or my alliance.
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Jane Spondogolo
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:49:00 -
[443]
Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 09/02/2007 22:47:44 Good on you T20 for comeing clean. Im sure this isnt an easy time.
edit: Guys. Call off the hounds. Im sure CCP are pwning the **** out of him as we speak for this. No need to make it any harder. We got what we wanted, which was corruption exposed, now lets just work towards a better game by kicking the crap out of BOB
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Takahashi Arran
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:49:00 -
[444]
personally my opinion is that t20 should be fired, rapidly He has proven to be an irresponsible developer and not a very good one at that. Seeing as he already had a second chance ( portraits by xmas) I cannot see how he is anything but a liability to CCP
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Raindrop
LittleHauling Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:49:00 -
[445]
And LOL at banning people for so called hacking a bob forum? Excuse me? Maybe he just had a spy account.
Ever since the start forums have been hacked and team speak servers etc. And not once have i ever seen ccp act against it. But now they do? Just in this case? Ouch the standard does get lowered then. Raindrop
It only takes a raindrop to cool the market.
100% Carebear and loving it. Trader. Hauler.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:49:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Tell us more about account sharing, Blacklight.
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:50:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Justicas Herror How easy would it be for CCP to cover up this incident to the players? Really, that's how.
I think that the apology and subsequent blog shows CCP's maturity as game devs.
Did you happen to miss Kieron's "We've looked into this and the event happened so long ago that we can't tell what happened /some devs have had their ids revealed so (sympathy plea) we'll have to delete their characters and all the in-game friendships that went with them / now can we put this behind us and move on" post?
They covered it up for 6 months. They tried covering it up even after the evidence was out there, and the community wouldn't accept it. Which is precisely why it's all but impossible now for people to accept that this list of (mostly) third-string T2 bpo's are all that was involved and that this is end of the cover-up. Total transparency really is the only way out here. And hope that we who love this game love it enough to let CCP start rebuilding that trust which they have so badly betrayed. |
PDoggy
Minmatar Valid Character Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:50:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
No, one man did not let you and BoB down. One man got CAUGHT.
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) - Wait for your email, do not put it back - Ductoris |
Speedy McWhizz
Significant Figures
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:50:00 -
[449]
Originally by: insolace CCP needs to do the following:
1) fire T20 to show they have a ZERO tolerance policy
2) unban "k" and all of his accounts
3) Fine BOB for the profits made from their BPOs, again demonstrating a ZERO tolerance policy
4) Remove all CCP staff's right to anonymity in the game.
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Plasticine Perfection
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[450]
Unban Kugustumen, penalise BoB *fairly*.
Then maybe there'll be some respect again. Until then CCP are heading for the dustbin of MMORPG history to serve as nothing other than yet another lesson on How Not To Run An MMO.
Oh, and I'm intrigued to see what the BoB leadership are going to do about this. A lot of your futures may depend on this too.
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Zyta Eke
Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Chronus26 By your logic, if you were unknowingly driving a stolen car you should be thrown in prison for it.
Not a great example. How about: if you were unknowingly driving a stolen car, should the police blow up your house because you used the car to make the money that bought the house?
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[452]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Fogy
Caldari Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[453]
Originally by: elohllird
Originally by: Ordo Lucius It is a ******* GAME!!!
To call for someone to lose thier JOB (you know, the think us normal people have?) over some bloody blueprints (i dont give a **** how much they were worth) is absolutely insane. They guy messed with policy, "misconduct" blah blah, but lets face facts, who the hell got hurt by this in real life? Anyone?
Of course they didnt, it is a game, where, by game mechanics, people can loot, cheat, scam, steal, kill, maim etc. IN GAME. Who cares if he gave away a few blueprints? If the devs didnt get involved in in-game stuff, we wouldnt have the game we all play today. Whether or not devs should be able to spawn stuff on command on the main server is open to question. Fair enough. But to cause some poor bloke to lose his job because he cheated IN A GAME...
Guys, you ALL take the biscuit on this one. For being shallow, pedantic, unpleasant and quite frankly i think you all need to bloody wake up. Its a game. The devs "conduct" is something for the DEVS to decide on. Not you.
If T20 loses his job, i think im really going to have to reconsider my subscription to Eve. I dont want to be involved with people with such an inhuman attitude to REAL people.
QFT
So.. If I'm the judge, or a creew member of a 150k poker turnament... and I some how rigg the cards or whatever to give my friends an advantage over every one else.. I gett cought.. and apologise.. would that satisfy you? considering you paied 14$ x 3 x 12 = 504$ to enter that turnament?
I think not. thats whay people are angry with this.. HE cheated THEM for what THEY are paying, with the money THEY GOT FROM THEYR RL JOBB!.
gett the point now?
But then again.... im a softy, I dont want part in him staying or leaving, i dont considerit my desicion to be made. But my point still stands.
Cheers! Fogy
I nerfed my siggie.. :( "From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
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Kam SingDu'k
Singularity.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[454]
First of all, I don't see why people are trying to limit the damage on t20, claiming that the bpos that were seeded were 'of little value,' The main point that I am personnally aggravated by is the fact that he chose to 'cheat' in the first place. It does not really matter whether the bpos were of value or not, and I'm sure one of the factors for him not spawning even better bpos for himself was the fact that it would be easier to get caught. T20 took the decision to cheat, and tbh if he knew he would not have gotten caught he would have spawned better bpos. Sure he has apologized, and maybe he understands how much damage he has done to CCP for cheating. However, even if he did retain his job, would the majority of eve players trust him anymore? Already we have people claiming that he will just create a new toon and carry on as usual(which i doubt).
Secondly, there are other allegations that have been brought up by people about other signs of dev misconduct. Will there be an investigation into this as well? For example, the Devs that are alleged to be in Bob HC, who knew about the 'cyno alt' network, yet turned a blind eye. Does this merit a ban or a warning? Sure, most eve players would probably ignore account sharing for cyno characters. But the fact remains that CCP Dev's should actively seek to enforce regulations which they themselves exercise when petitioned upon. Therefore the ommission from said CCP Dev's may need to be investigated as well, in order to restore CCP's image.
Thirdly, with the alleged 'Ebaying' of chars, is there any action to be taken against those people? AFAIK, it is against the EULA to use RL money to buy toons, and there is evidence (if you believe it) of this happening. Therefore, will said ebayers be banned from the game, which is what usually happens for people who do this right?
Also, one of the major issues that BOB face now, is the fact that their HC have been exposed, for misconduct, via ebaying, cyno-alt sharing, account sharing (the 'communist plan'), bpo spawning etc etc. What will happen to these players now that they have been exposed? T20 tried to accept all responsibility, and shift blame from his friends, rightly so. However, any reasonable man would see through this. I await CCP's reply, conduct on this matter.
Reading Kieron's post seems like too little, too late tbh. Damage has been done, some have receieved their just deserts. However, not enough seems to have been done with regards the BOB HC and the other Devs who have been implicated from recent posts. I can't really see what CCP are hoping to do to reduce the possibility of this occurring in the future. Will we have to rely on people such as Kugut to 'look after the community' by exposing said misconduct rather than CCP who atm are very lax on the situation imo?
We shall see. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia (mods@ccpgames) |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:51:00 -
[455]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:52:00 -
[456]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:52:00 -
[457]
Interesting stuff.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:53:00 -
[458]
Originally by: nickky01
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
your actually saying that the entire BoB alliance is claiming ignorance when when HOW many people called you cheaters?
how many posts in the corp and alliances forums call you guys out? how many times in how many threads did people say that...and only NOW it "sickens and saddens" you?
pfft
When people cant elevate thier own actions to that of "the best" the always claim fowl can that the "best are cheaters", its only normal human behavior to be greedy and disbelieving at what others can do that you cant.
Dont hate the alliance, Hate the dev. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:53:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Plasticine Perfection Unban Kugustumen, penalise BoB *fairly*.
Then maybe there'll be some respect again. Until then CCP are heading for the dustbin of MMORPG history to serve as nothing other than yet another lesson on How Not To Run An MMO.
Oh, and I'm intrigued to see what the BoB leadership are going to do about this. A lot of your futures may depend on this too.
Yes, unban a blackmailing hacker! lol, sad person. |
Proclarush
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:53:00 -
[460]
Edited by: Proclarush on 09/02/2007 22:49:59 Guess we know now where last years Christmas toys went...
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Tars Phan
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:53:00 -
[461]
This is my first post on this subject, and my last.
So after many days of BoB screaming witch hunt and CCP saying trust us we get this confession. It feels like damage control all over again to me.
The most powerful alliance in the game got special favors from a developer who admits to one out of a list of charges, what else is being swept under the rug here? CCP you have zero credibility now, my assumption is that most of the charges have merit.
If I was a member of BoB and not a bobbit in the know I'd be embarrassed and annoyed by this, guilt by association and forum dynamics are going to be unforgiving in this case. I know you BoB guys can PvP and you're both organized and tough opponents, it doesn't matter, you have been all been tainted, no doubt most of you don't deserve it. That won't change human nature.
For me the game is compromised and the remedy proposed seems disproportionate to the potential damage done. I honestly cannot think of any way that CCP can restore my confidence in the impartiality of the game at this point.
t20 you got off light; If you worked for me I'd be busy blackballing you in the entire business community after I had your arse frog marched out of the building by security, you have no business working in game software development no matter how good you are at it.
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:54:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Tell us more about account sharing, Blacklight.
You sure GOONSWARM wants to go there, "Jacob"? Are you sure YOU want to go there?
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Wormy Gallint
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:54:00 -
[463]
Thanks for the quick investigation.
I assume the offender has had his employment terminated. It would have been nice to have read that in the blog though.
I too have concern about the profit made from the illegal BPOs and hope that they have been/will be rolled back.
On removing CCP characters, I would like to suggest that those who revealed their own identity be removed while those revealed by others merely be rehidden (renamed, new portraits, etc.). I hate to think that employees would lose all their hard in game work through no fault of their own.
Thanks for the great game! I for one am happy that CCP plays Eve. It keeps game enjoyment a much more personal concept to work towards. Wormy Gallint |
K'srah
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:54:00 -
[464]
I can't believe other CCP employees are willing to go back to work with someone who has undermined all of their work in such a dispicable and underhanded manner.
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:55:00 -
[465]
There seems to be quite a lot of people being sympathetic to this fraud, but in the big picture, isn't it more reasonable to view this incident this way?
CCP, wether they knew of employees abusing their privilage or not, only released this information when the community started complaining with big enough voice (in order to appease it of course). This has nothing to do with the honesty of k20; this has more to do with saving CCP some face. I mean, anyone with a bit of a clue would instantly notice that CCP's credibility would be quite skewed if they simply told off the community saying 'CCP holds strict guideline among our workers not to abuse their developer status blah blah blah'.
At the end of the day, what has exactly come out of this? A sympathetic community, BoB alliance doesn't loose much (bunch of crappy BPO and a sabre BPO which they can easily re-purchase from someone), and a multi-million SP character which again can be re-purchased.
BoB alliance is now few billion isk short; a large alliance can easily afford that kind of isk. This investigation hasn't changed a damn thing, thank you very much.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:55:00 -
[466]
Devblog has this written all over it ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Dragerest
Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:55:00 -
[467]
he should be fired. so the next person thinks about it.. "should i cheat and lose my job or play far and keep my job"
"so what if a cop smokes alittle pot. or does alittle PCP on the job.. i mean it's he's life right"
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Caius LiviusCerso
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:55:00 -
[468]
Originally by: Arthur Miller Now, what is going to be done about the multiple cases of account sharing in RKK that these devs had knowledge of?
Shrike anyone?
Titan driver in BOB, like 24 hours per day, per week, per month online?
C'mon...
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:56:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Kam SingDu'k First of all, I don't see why people are trying to limit the damage on t20, claiming that the bpos that were seeded were 'of little value,'
Even this is a bogus argument. Everyone in this game knows that "it takes money to make money." Remember what happened when freighters were introduced? People with money bought freighters straight away and made billions AFKing trade goods around in safe Empire space.
By the time that people without money had enough to buy freighters, CCP had changed the system to make the trade routes that the freighter guys used much less profitable.
Who knows how BoB has used the ill-gotten gains from the BPOs?
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:57:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Tell us more about account sharing, Blacklight.
You sure GOONSWARM wants to go there, "Jacob"? Are you sure YOU want to go there?
Don't tease them like that, it's more fun to let them feel good about themselves first and then reveal their own shortcomings ;) |
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:57:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
I understand your point BL, but the actions of T20 have cast a shadow of doubt on a number of other things within your alliance, more importantly the leadership of RKK.
They knew he was a Dev for a long time, they promoted him to Director of Cap fleets, because of his behaviour on the RKK forums you would have to conclude that he had been giving inside information to certain leadership in RKK and to confirm that we have:
Originally by: dimensionZ
could understand such secrets from Galavet, as he is, our boss. You aint my boss, and you never will, as i wont be ur boss either. I never kept informations from you i beleive, hell even t20 secret infos i had in the past, i trusted u all with those.
There is evidence of not only the BPO issue but giving his corp an advantadge by giving information that is not available to everyone else in eve.
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Havoc GunStar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:57:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
Pardon me Sir, but I am a consumer. CCP sells an entertainment product that I pay real life money to enjoy. We are now finding out that that product is not exactly what it has been represented as. Your protests that it is 'just a game' fall on pretty deaf ears for those of us that see it as a product, and expect to receive exactly what we are paying for. For me, that means a level playing field and game environment. T20 is not just another player, he is an employee of the corporation that sells this product. A product that is purportedly free of this sort of behavior by way of mysterious checks and balances that apparently do not work as advertised.
I think the people in this thread are very much entitled to their outrage. As either an individual or a member of an alliance, I would dearly love to possess a Sabre BPO. That ship costs over twice what any other interdictor costs in my region of space. I know, I fly all four, based on current market price, and the abilities of the hull. One can safely assume that difference in cost is pure profit so you can drop the protests about these BPO's being small potatoes. No one is buying it. The original source of this information, which was widely criticized as being counterfeit, also showed monthly payouts from the program these prints were fed into, so since the source has been validated on the existence of the abuse, I'm afraid I am going to have to assume the payout information was accurate as well. The burden of proof is now on the alliance that denied the entire situation, not the source of the information. The opportunity for them to say 'yes we did this, but no we didn't do that' has come and gone. I might add, those denials were accompanied by highly personal attacks that as far as I have seen, have not been apologized for.
The alliance that directly benefited from this abuse has now declared war on mine. How much of a difference will this abuse make? I don't know. Maybe none at all. But I hope you can understand how that uncertainty might rob me of some of my enjoyment of a product that I am paying money for, for purely entertainment purposes.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Yeah... Probably not.
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:58:00 -
[473]
Hi, I just heard about the stuff and read the blogs. Simply felt I would have to tell myself.
If employees were not going to get fired but only would loose their accounts if they act inappropriate like that; there would be no real risk in trying to cheat in the first place.
Any damage already done cannot be undone; nobody would be able to track down everything. If money accumulated from from those BPOs was invested to buy something from a third person, you cannot simply deduct the money from the third person and give him back the bought item. That simply is not possible.
The third thing I would like to mention in this case is: Probability and suspicion are not enough to fire someone or perform any retaliation on players/custumers that seem to have had intentionaly drawn any benefit from the incidents.
The statement and actions performed by the Ceo of CCP are the best possible solution that could be made. It does not matter wether there are more incidents left unrevealed or CCP only "admitted" a peak of what was done by a few of their employees: It was never the intention to cheat the remaining community nor is the company interested in decreasing the game quality by favoring of a few.
No matter what facts are, CCP is most probably mostly interested in increasing gamequality and decreasing such incidents as far as possible; so no matter what you think there still might remain unrevealed, it is CCPs own interest do choose the best possible solution to prevent such occurings so be assured they will take theese actions. No point in whining about impossibility that a better solution than the best one simply doesnŠt exist.
kind regards, Skeltek
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Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:58:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Caius LiviusCerso
Originally by: Arthur Miller Now, what is going to be done about the multiple cases of account sharing in RKK that these devs had knowledge of?
Shrike anyone?
Titan driver in BOB, like 24 hours per day, per week, per month online?
C'mon...
Pretty much all alliances share their Titan/Mothership. There's very few that don't, and I could understand if there was some leniancy for those ship-types only. A nice skill would make a change to this, so someone could pilot a Titan/Mothership, whilst the main account was still "in it". ---
Cache Clearer |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:58:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Tell us more about account sharing, Blacklight.
Tell us more about the HUGE GTC ring you guys got going, and the sales of GTC's on ebay, and the dread sharing posted in your officer forums please....
Or dont because it does not belong in a tread about T20, nor does any PRIVATE issues the GM's have with any of RKK's leadership.... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Ademaro Imre
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:58:00 -
[476]
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 09/02/2007 22:58:53 nm - just read the I am a member of the Disgraced Band of Brothers Alliance apology.
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:58:00 -
[477]
Goonswarm had a widely used client portrait hack, which was in violation of the EULA.
Where was the righteous indignation then?
While Goonswarm and its buddies are calling for t20's head, how about dealing with that?
Misconduct should be addressed -- WHEREVER it occurs, right?
Or does that not apply to Goonswarm?
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Bembelritter
Gallente PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:59:00 -
[478]
my problem is the question if will some other do it again or who else did it. i hoped this post will restore my confidence in the system but i still have this bad feeling in the pounch. and i think there are a lot of players not pleased also.
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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Kaplanelle
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:59:00 -
[479]
Edited by: Kaplanelle on 09/02/2007 22:57:10 Well folks, guess there was a witch found in this hunt after all. I'll trade anyone my tinhat for the woolen eye cozies?
Originally by: Ramblin Man Devs shouldn't be fired over incidents like this
Zero tolerence policies actually make difference. Easy to say" Bobby's a nice guy, so what if he bonked his secretary... (and opened the company to a $3m lawsuit)". Getting axe for mixing business with pleasure at the expense of your customers is totally called for.
The fact that there were a few few references by devs was crying they'd have to say goodbye to friends, well, boohoo. You need to keep some distance here or else you'll continue have more employee/alliance incest.
There does need to be a real sea change here. We can only assume that the next abuse will be concealed far worse, as the ante for being caught now is so high. Seizure of the BPOs now is like using a kleenex on an exploded ballon full of grapejuice.
Dear CCP, my dollar vote's going elsewhere unless you get damn serious and make a detailed, public policy on dev-player limitations.
But I'll stick around a little to help clean up the mess here.
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:59:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Sephiraa Edited by: Sephiraa on 09/02/2007 22:35:06
Originally by: Popsikle Its not like its RKK's fault for t20 cheating. Why would RKK be punished because someone else cheated, its not like RKK made t20 cheat. Even if the leaders of RKK knew about it, morality is not the same as legality.
Nor is it like T20 made the Directors of RKK share accounts, but if the T20 info is true, it strongly suggests that information is equally true. Why is the BoB alliance allowed to share accounts while others are banned.
The EULA states:
Quote: You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited.
Quote: You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA.
BoB: EVOL and RKK, require 'communist' pilots to give their account info to the Directors with the understanding that those accounts will be shared, and many of us can quote the relevant part, if 3rd party quotes were allowed on this forum. That account sharing practice is against the EULA and should be punished in the same manner that all account sharing for other players has been punished. With Bans. That, or all players who have been banned for account sharing should have their characters reinstated. It's not fair if BoB gets to play by different rules than the rest of us.
Ok yes, I know, ive already said that. But the privacy policy states information regarding actions taken against players will remain private. So who is to know if they have banned accounts or whatever for it, nobody.
It's quite simple. We know the names of the characters in question. If they ever log in, we know they are still around, and that the account sharing has gone, and continues to go, unpunished. The message being, the EULA is free to be broken at will.. as long as you are in BoB.
Or, BoD, as it sadly appears to be.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:59:00 -
[481]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 09/02/2007 23:01:29 CCP I would appreciate it if you removed the bans and multiple warning this account received when I first broke this story (To give credit where credit is due, Mr. K was already unable to post it himself and asked someone else to in his stead). I broke no rules when posting the story and retaliating against me because I posted something that did not show CCP in a good light is draconian. Obviously the forum is the only appropriate place to discuss such matters, because if I had simply emailed Kieron as requested, the community never would have been able to apply to proper pressure to force CCP to investigate further - there have been allegations of BoB cheating since they formed, and I have no doubt my complains would have simply been written off as what we all thought was non-sense.
Originally by: Psym0n Edited by: Psym0n on 09/02/2007 22:19:24 It takes a lot of balls to admit that you did something wrong, and then apologise to 150k people....
Let's make sure we're all on the same page here. T20 admitted nothing - he was found out, he did not confess. Confession would have been a week or even a month after he spawned the items, not a week after all of these accusations started flying. He is no different than any other petty criminal that openly begs for mercy - not sorry he did it, sorry he got caught.
I would also like to know what's going to happen to the others involved in this. While I highly doubt the average rank-and-file of BoB knew about this, it's obvious that everyone in the upper-management did. Just as people who abuse game mechanics are banned, shouldn't the people who knowingly abused these blueprints and insider-knowledge of events, bugs, changes in the market, etc, be banned? If they had come forward and said "Don't ask questions, but we shouldn't have these BPOs", than as whistle blowers they should be protected. Instead they chose to knowly profit for months and months. Doesn't that require some kind of punishment?
And to BoB: I use to defend you to my corporation, telling them, "BoB doesn't cheat, you can't cheat in EVE, they're just really really good." How does it feel to know that the validity of everything you've ever accomplished has now into question? You guys are absolutely disagraceful - I fly with as much honor as the next goon (read: none), but you guys, in true BoB tradition, have taken it to an entirely new level. Your leaders are liars and cheaters of the highest magnitude - you've asked us how we can follow Remedial - for all his faults, he's never, ever, come close to what your leaders have done. How can you follow them, after all of this? You called Goonfleet the cancer of EVE ; it is my pleasure to hand the title back to you.
I say this with a completely straight face: You guys should disband as an alliance and go your own way. Irreparable damage has been done to you, your corporations, your alliance, and everyone in between. Do EVE a favor and scatter so people can actually start trusting CCP again. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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the blender
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:00:00 -
[482]
T20 you should hang your head in shame dude, you have done a big disservice to your alliance and your company. While not being a fan of Bob, I will say that people are using what is essentialy an internal staff issue for CCP, as a big lets beat bob stick. We should let CCP work this through leave it at that. After all would EA or Blizzard have been so forthcoming if this had happened to them. No is the answer. As to those calling for T20's sacking, I think having to face his co-workers is gonna be hard enough and no doubt the christmas bonus will be a bit slimmer next year. So his pockets and pride will suffer enough I reckon.
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M4sterm1nd
DarkStar 1
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:01:00 -
[483]
Although it is with a sad heart that I see this rumour finally confirmed, I am reminded once again of Lord Acton's morbid reduction "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". While I so applaud the public release of this information such as it is, I must wonder what purpose this might serve, short of opening a can of worms. Few have shown the dark side of trust in this virtual world better than the Guiding Hand and the Eve Bank, but the confirmation of corruption within the ranks of CCP confirmed the whining of the disenchanted, the weak-willed, and the uncommitted : I suck because CCP makes me suck.
As a player I could blubber about fairness and mutter "h4X!" under my breath when I think the GMs aren't looking, but in the end I am not known for such thinking. In the end we must all come to terms with the facts of life, both in EvE and out. Life is not fair. Life is not about serving the greater good, about helping the little guy, or equal share for all. It's dog eat dog, and in this instance one dog had a particularly big lunch.
So I say let us not mourn what was, but learn from it, and move on. The world of EvE will continue to turn, despite the undoubtedly soon-to-be rampant bandwagonism in the gaming media concerning the corruption. If anything, this incident has shown us that the Lords of EvE are human. Fallible, greedy, and selfish. But who are we, as players, to brandish the flaming sword and cast them out of paradise? We as players are everything the spectrum of humankind has to offer, avatars, thieves, samaritans and charlatans. Let us embrace that the creators of our virtual world are cut of the same wood as us, which, in the end, is what makes this game great.
I say forgive, but never forget. For my part, Hillmar, I thank you. For Eve, for your statement, for your openness, and for your faith that this too, shall pass.
I salute you!
M4sterm1nd
Sig kitten butchered, courtesy of ReverendM To learn more about sig slaughter, mail to [email protected] today! They also provide services in pink! |
Liathus Firebane
Gallente Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:01:00 -
[484]
I'm not sure that i will be able to continue paying to be exploited. The fact i have been paying ccp only to have their employee's cheat in a persistent world game is insane! I will never be able to engage a bob ship and be shot with t2 ammo and wonder if it was acquired via fraud.
CCP, you need a policy of NO DEVS IN THE GAME.
if this doesn't happen, i will cancel both of my accounts. If this message is edited or removed by ccp, i will cancel my accounts.
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Jolaqa Gahnyesaqa
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:01:00 -
[485]
Edited by: Jolaqa Gahnyesaqa on 09/02/2007 22:57:57 Good on ya CCP for working out what happened and letting us know. I give respect to t20 for coming clean like that, we're all human, we all make mistakes.
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Malleus Raven
Red Dwarf Mining Corps 5th Column
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:01:00 -
[486]
Please do not discuss moderation - email us instead - Serathu ([email protected])
and agian please come clean with EVERYTHING that has happened with the investigation, complete records etc etc etc.
and to the BoB players, we are not so much angry at you but at how your group was assisted by people who have control over the entire eve universe, please dont get us wrong. many of us rant and rave but, we just want the game to be fair.
((expects his reply to be modded in a few minutes)) Diplomat for the Red Dwarf Mining corp and 5th column |
Business Master
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:02:00 -
[487]
i would not be surprised if most ccp were in BoB infact. and other matters of this nature have been handed to bob without general knowledge. also it seems very strange of bob winning every single eveTV competition. even the one where the ascn dude put a hybrid on his Crow! i mean cmon that was just a total cheating. And i do not think this is the "only" case of a ccp employee doing such a thing its just the only one that has been caught. no wonder why bob is all powerfull eh? now we can also know where they get they're endless war campaign donations of isk from?
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:02:00 -
[488]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 09/02/2007 23:00:15
Originally by: Popsikle Tell us more about the HUGE GTC ring you guys got going, and the sales of GTC's on ebay, and the dread sharing posted in your officer forums please....
Or dont because it does not belong in a tread about T20, nor does any PRIVATE issues the GM's have with any of RKK's leadership....
I am not in a position to comment on these issues.
However, I pilot a carrier. I pay for a second account that has three cyno characters on it.
I have never knowlingly cynoed in to a character on a shared account.
Go throw rocks at someone else. This thread is about t20 and his misconduct. He, a dev, knowlingly operated a account sharing ring.
Why no acknowledgement?
-dbp
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Manus Ghostface
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:02:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Lucre
Frankly, I doubt there's a major 0.0 corp/alliance in Eve that doesn't share cyno accounts. That's the big fault with the whole cyno system, that it gives a huge advantage to multi-account characters who can afford to have alts stationed in intermediate systems - there needs to be a better way of doing this.
What worries me more is account sharing of major assets like Titans. I know ASCN petitioned Shrike and I know the petition was denied. Maybe justifiably but how are now supposed to trust this? Meanwhile one of our members has just had a longtime character instabanned (with all his assets including carrier) because CCP discovered the account was transferred between players well over a year ago. No cheating, no cash, simply a no-longer-wanted account being passed to a corpmate for which CCP has still been paid all this time. Technically against the rules, but what harm was it doing to justify the sort of zero-tolerance policy which CCP obviously don't apply to its own?
*shakes head* Oh why couldn't you have been honest with us from the start? The damage this has done to trust is incalculable.
Thats why I said they need to change the EULA or clarify it if they don't punish it. You can't have a law and break it for one person, then use it to ban another. There have been cases where people have shared an account and gotten banned for changing a m8's skills. How should they feel when they look at this? That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick. - Lycurgus |
Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:02:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Liathus Firebane I'm not sure that i will be able to continue paying to be exploited. The fact i have been paying ccp only to have their employee's cheat in a persistent world game is insane! I will never be able to engage a bob ship and be shot with t2 ammo and wonder if it was acquired via fraud.
CCP, you need a policy of NO DEVS IN THE GAME.
if this doesn't happen, i will cancel both of my accounts. If this message is edited or removed by ccp, i will cancel my accounts.
You cannot stop the people making this game, playing it, and I for one will STOP paying for and playing this game if they stop. After all, they need feedback, and one of the only ways they can actually check for bugs, or see if the games working or not, is playing it. ---
Cache Clearer |
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:03:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Sinlare
Yes, unban a blackmailing hacker! lol, sad person.
You do have this insane fascination with the zOmg evil blackmailing hacker thing don't you?
...Free Kugutsumen... |
Fabienne Runestar
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:03:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
QFT!
You've denied, you've investigated, you put out partial statments, and now this further attempt to whitewash the situation by making it seem all better but it's not CCP. You can't sweep this under the rug. Every allegation needs to be accounted for now, before the end of the weekend or you will lose even more face.
If people lose their jobs or resign because of this so be it. They knew the rules and the ethics behind what they did from the get go. They broke internal company rules, and did things that were extremely unethical. I'd not want them working for me or my company. Do the right thing, full disclosure, and attempting to resolve this conflict before it escalates. --
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Blitter
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:04:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Blitter on 09/02/2007 23:02:29 Edited by: Blitter on 09/02/2007 23:02:00
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth Goonswarm had a widely used client portrait hack, which was in violation of the EULA.
Where was the righteous indignation then?
While Goonswarm and its buddies are calling for t20's head, how about dealing with that?
Misconduct should be addressed -- WHEREVER it occurs, right?
Or does that not apply to Goonswarm?
I'm sorry, did you mean the portrait hack that GMs repeatedly confirmed was allowed, and then CCP added to the game in Kali? That portrait hack?
Might as well get this out there: here's a screenshot of a GM scouting 28Y a few days ago.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8910/gmscoutaoz6.jpg
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:04:00 -
[494]
Edited by: Toshiro Khan on 09/02/2007 23:02:48 Right... Lets say if various members of BoB get banned for account sharing.. Does that mean most of Goonswarm and various allies of theirs are going to be banned for using modified clients? After all it was proven time and time again that they was using modified picture to show war targets in local.
As for Kugutsumen, I hope he remains banned.. As because of him and his hacking and phishing a number of Innocent CCP employees was forced to give up their friendships and such.
Sorry.. but in this case the means does not justify the end... Breaking the law is still breaking the law.
Edit: Bah Philo Farnsworth beat em to it.. And the portrait hack, was confirmed as illigal and shouldn't be done as it was modifiying the client.
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente TRSG Research
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:04:00 -
[495]
I see the list of BPO's and a refrence to this being discovered and NOT addressed at that time until a 3rd party disclosed this outside of CCP's control.
My simple question is why were the BPO's not removed then and there - instead of no action being taken until now?
The employee in question could be couselled and the trust issues addressed internally but there is no reason to leave the fruits of a fraudulent act in the game is there?
Having worked in the software industry for years I know there is no way to seperate the devloper from thier game. If they didn't love it and live for the game, and were only collecting a pay check they would not be as effective as they are.
An internal affiars is a great step, and apparentlly needed as self policeing and that thin blue line mentality can lead to positions like this current one. Most internal affiars departments involve outsiders not only to have a tempering vocie detatched from personal feelings but also an objective view outside of the direct control of political/employee retalliation.
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Raindrop
LittleHauling Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Raindrop on 09/02/2007 23:04:29 As for those 6 bpo's.
T20 said it was 10.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ishos Rerajan Lend these to the TMP hangars, iirc these should have been locked down already.
Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint
Spike L Blueprint Quake L Blueprint Barrage L Blueprint
Malediction Blueprint Sabre Blueprint
Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:00 pm
Originally Posted by Ishos Rerajan Added to Nol directors hangar - Barrage S Blueprint (we should have two of these now) - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint (yay)
lockdown
Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:19 pm
Raindrop
It only takes a raindrop to cool the market.
100% Carebear and loving it. Trader. Hauler.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Cyou've asked us how we can follow Remedial - for all his faults, he's never, ever, come close to what your leaders have done. How can you follow them, after all of this? You called Goonfleet the cancer of EVE ; it is my pleasure to hand the title back to you.
I say this with a completely straight face: You guys should disband as an alliance and go your own way. Irreparable damage has been done to you, your corporations, your alliance, and everyone in between. Do EVE a favor and scatter so people can actually start trusting CCP again.
Yes, compare a guy that mocks dead people and enjoys his **** propaganda just for kicks to a cheater in a game. hah, you're funny. |
hunnee
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[498]
Personally: The guys gotta go, Theft as a servant is not tolerated in real life and nor should it be here, I realize he's sorry and i thank him for being honest, however i feel that the community needs to have faith in Devs and the work that they do. Actions like this do not bode well. A stern example needs to be set as a reminder for all futher devs that actions like this cannot and will not be tolerated
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[499]
So good so far, t20 sorry but i think you should be banned and terminated, which is probably what happened.
CCP needs to talk with t20 about the account sharing cynonet that bob runs and something needs to be done about sir molle revealing rl info all over the forums!
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[500]
Maybe I'm reading another MMO's website, but I distinctly read that the Internal Affairs group for CCP was created in January, meaning that we cannot expect the last 8 months to have had that level of detailed policing.
I don't see those BPOs as having broken the game, especially not compared to say, farming those Angel complexes for a year or more. I certainly don't think they are the key to BoB having won all their wars, especially the war with ASCN. Those BPOs didn't make CYVOK lose a Titan, they didn't give BoB unlimited ships and ISK, and they certainly didn't give them some hax pvp skillz. I probably make more in a day or two of lvl 4 missions than all those BPOS combined, excluding the Sabre BPO, whose profit is offset by a nice GE4 bonus drop or two.
It's sad to see this all happen, however I personally see that it isn't as bad (game-imbalancing wise) as pmost people claimed, however the act itself will have consequences, and like all things, some will likely make it larger, or smaller, than it is, and those who make it larger, will probably haul ass to slashdot and other places.
I have no sympathy for Kugu whatsoever though. His only reason for not being in a cell is the location he lives in. Two wrongs don't make a right, how can you people stand there defending a hacker and serial criminal. Do you people ignore the recent keylogger warning? Do you think it's a mere coincidence that there's a keylogger problem around the same time that people started flooding his site? Perhaps it is, but I highly doubt it.
I'm going to accept these blogs, because quite frankly, there's nothing more CCP can reasonably do. They won't mass-ban BoB, just as they didn't mass-ban other alliances who have exploited certain things. I can't understand why someone would make such a choice on something that is so vital to their livelyhood, however I am not going to stand along side people who are screaming for banishment of anyone who 'knew', and compensation for all hurt by this.
Has CCP, or any company ever reimbursed on such a massive scale? No, it's impossible. Are some people throwing stones from inside a glass house in this thread? Absolutely.
I ask everyone to make their decision with their free time. Personally, I'm going to stay. As greedy as this is going to sound, my world inside of EVE is unaffected by this incident, and EVE is still a great game.
The fact of this matter is CCP wasn't 'sweeping it under the rug'. I know the mods were mass-deleting tons of spamming/flooding threads, and a sticky was made on the subject. It wasn't good enough for some, but has been dealt with publicly, and I KNOW that other companies would've removed any vocal elements in a case such as this, and not given a damn. However CCP does seem to very much give a damn, and I respect that.
P.S. BoB/D2/LV/Goons, please don't kill TQ with your battles.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:05:00 -
[501]
Originally by: mazzilliu Edited by: mazzilliu on 09/02/2007 20:34:13 :whoah:
any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
Hell no!
Mind you he is NO hero. He is a hacker. And a pretty nasty one. He has broken into more than just web sites. He has hacked actual player accounts. Thats a CLEAR ban. NO discussion.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Kam SingDu'k
Singularity.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:06:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Tell us more about account sharing, Blacklight.
You sure GOONSWARM wants to go there, "Jacob"? Are you sure YOU want to go there?
Two wrongs dont make a right. U dig the dirt on Goonswarm, Devs will look into it. However atm the **** has been dug on BOB and therefore they must face the consequences. It's only right afterall. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia (mods@ccpgames) |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:06:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Sephiraa
It's quite simple. We know the names of the characters in question. If they ever log in, we know they are still around, and that the account sharing has gone, and continues to go, unpunished. The message being, the EULA is free to be broken at will.. as long as you are in BoB.
Or, BoD, as it sadly appears to be.
Or goon, Or LV, Or ASCN, Or D2, or RA. Or most any corp/alliance around has people that share accoutns for one reason or another. Cyno's are a good example, research toons, capital pilots, freighters, transports....
I would be shocked to see that any major alliance/corp out there that doesnt have at least 1-2 shared accounts, just in case. Like if the CEO has to go on vaca for a few weeks, or the corp can only afford a few capitals, or there is no need for 25 people to train up all the research skills....
You name one larger corp/alliance that doesnt do it, and I will call you a liar to your face.
Yes its against the EUAL, but its none of our business how CCP deal with it nor investigates it. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
reched
Minmatar Purgatorial Janitors Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:06:00 -
[504]
Edited by: reched on 09/02/2007 23:03:09 well I wont have any respect for an alliance whose leadership was knowningly using their advantage unfairly. you thought ASCN / CYVOK was bad? the destruction of BoB is at hand since its fair to say many corps in BoB who had nothing to do with this or what to be associated with a leadership of cheaters... cya BoB
[imghttp://graham.elitistjerks.com/bobsigzz3.jpg |
jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:06:00 -
[505]
Edited by: jeffb on 09/02/2007 23:04:00 Kieron, out of curiosity, do you have a character in BoB? Confirm/Deny?
Neither of these blogs address all the questions raised.
What about ISD & Aurora corruption? Why wasn't a proper investigation done when the LV Hel Aurora event happened? Now you claim its been too long to investigate it. Why was AnthonyZ banned for bringing all this information to light? Why is there a GM flyinig around an alliances moons just as BoB declares war on them?
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Jane Spondogolo
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:07:00 -
[506]
Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
The guy did fess up. At least give him credit for that. I really dont like the idea of anyone losing jobs over this, but maybe Im biased as an old union boy.
CCP: The lesson of this is UNNERF MY FALCON
That is all.
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:07:00 -
[507]
I agree! Let's clean house in Eve!
Let's start with an alliance who systematically violates the EULA in order to gain an unfair advantage over their in-game opponents.
I'm referring, of course, to Goonswarm's systematic abuse of the Eve client with their well-documented portrait hack, not to mention their flagrant abuse of GTCs and account sharing, as openly discussed on their own forums.
Clean up Eve! Ban the cheaters!
And after t20 has been dealt with, let's move on to the hypocrites in Goonswarm.
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Liathus Firebane
Gallente Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:07:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Liathus Firebane on 09/02/2007 23:04:36
Quote: You cannot stop the people making this game, playing it, and I for one will STOP paying for and playing this game if they stop. After all, they need feedback, and one of the only ways they can actually check for bugs, or see if the games working or not, is playing it.
No i really don't think they need to be playing the game. They can test the game. But they should not be in player run corps or alliances.
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Mr Antisocial
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[509]
T20 Caught Cheating
OK, so let me get this right. I've been playing for over 3 years and I can say one thing is for certain. T20 has not only cheated the game, but cheated what 40,000 people that also play this game. If you see one*****roach then usually there is a bunch more in the house. Your reply although very nicely written doesn't give any information what so ever. You've banned the person that found out about this why? Because he ended up policing CCP better than CCP? This is outrageous! Then on top of all of this it sounds as if termination of employment doesn't apply to this particular Dev? I hope I get a response from this because personally I'm not just disappointed in CCP, I'm plain mad. I have 4 accounts on this game in which I pay approximately 50 dollars a month and I've been playing almost since the beginning. I want to know that something was done, not a bunch of tap dancing. How are you going to prevent this in the future? I personally believe that no Dev should be apart of any large alliance, you have to play the game to understand how to make changes, you don't have to be part of the biggest alliance or any alliance for that matter.
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[510]
Originally by: ShuPac the3rd Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
He quit :-(( --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Liathus Firebane I'm not sure that i will be able to continue paying to be exploited. The fact i have been paying ccp only to have their employee's cheat in a persistent world game is insane! I will never be able to engage a bob ship and be shot with t2 ammo and wonder if it was acquired via fraud.
CCP, you need a policy of NO DEVS IN THE GAME.
if this doesn't happen, i will cancel both of my accounts. If this message is edited or removed by ccp, i will cancel my accounts.
Can I have your stuff?
Really tho, you saying your gonna quit isnt gonna make a difference, if your going to go, go already. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Dra0cht
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[512]
Please, do the decent thing, and immediately unban Kugutsumen, and all his accounts, and apologise for not having the guts to do what he has done.
I suppose the anger and frustration will be unleashed on a certain in-game alliance, and all their friends and subjects. In the absence of a full investigation, which has not happened so far, perhaps the total annihilation of cheaters from the game will be the action of the community after all.
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FBIJustice
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[513]
how about his dev's / GM's cant play . just watch. [url=http://www.fbi-clan.org][/url] |
Delivery Bloke
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[514]
1) Firstly with out and shred of a doubt this guy should lose his job.
2) More than likely he has probably been selling stuff on ebay(through people ingame)or selling ingame items for r/l back handers(if he would breach trust anyway, why not?). If this could be proven in court then he should prosecuted to the full extent of the law(im sure this would involve some r/l crime).
3) There needs to be a FULL and COMPLETE investigation and then ALL culprits named and shamed wether they be DEV's or players.
4) This may only be a game but this has the potential to affect the profits of CCP in the long term aswell as the short term(If CCP take tough, stern and no-nonsense action then im sure someone would think twice before doing anything like this again.
I still think CCP has the best development team in ONLINE MMO's at the moment and im glad to hear that they will still be playing in all sort corporations and alliances in the game.
A good hard look needs to be taken at all corpoarations involved this may take so resources away from the game but it will pay for it self if you think trust is important, concerning your customers.
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:08:00 -
[515]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Wanux
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:09:00 -
[516]
I have a problem with the way this is being handled, CCP.
You are providing a coverup and a smokescreen while allowing all sorts of EULA breaking activities to be ignored.
You should either admit that you are corrupt or actually do something.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:09:00 -
[517]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 09/02/2007 23:06:33
Originally by: Grez You cannot stop the people making this game, playing it, and I for one will STOP paying for and playing this game if they stop. After all, they need feedback, and one of the only ways they can actually check for bugs, or see if the games working or not, is playing it.
Okay, so here's an idea.
Instead of most of the devs diligently and rigorously testing the workings of T2 blueprints, and leading capital fleets into battle, how about they actually spend time playing at the level of most players, and doing the things that most players do?
If the devs want to play so that they are aware of how the game works, then most or all of them should be mining in Ospreys, ratting, doing missions, perhaps participating in small-scale engagements.
Because THAT'S WHAT MOST OF THE PLAYERS DO.
I'm very glad that the heroic devs are willing to test the game experience of the top 0.1% of players, but perhaps they should set their sights a bit lower. And then I would stop doubting that they are actually playing for the good of the game, and not for the good of their own ego.
And maybe if a dev then cheats by spawning 1000 units of illegal Veldspar in his hangar, there won't be such an outcry.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:10:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: mazzilliu Edited by: mazzilliu on 09/02/2007 20:34:13 :whoah:
any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
Hell no!
Mind you he is NO hero. He is a hacker. And a pretty nasty one. He has broken into more than just web sites. He has hacked actual player accounts. Thats a CLEAR ban. NO discussion.
And you know that how? ...Free Kugutsumen... |
Imicusin
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:10:00 -
[519]
This is absolutely disgusting... This guy has literally- the entire universe at his hands, free to do anything, and he supplies half a dozen "worthless" bpo's. Yes, I believe that. Half a dozen randomly selected bpo's to make the incident "harmless", but what about what he really supplied? (btw, speculation, I got no proof, but I have a soul) If I was going to cheat, if I was the pet of some alliance, I would supply every T2 bpo in existance!
Give me this random ammo bpo crap. Give me a break. No harm done. Please.
Stop lying,
1. What did he really supply? 2. Have a sense of justice!
How many hundreds of millions "worthless" T2 ammo, (T2 ships) are going to be sent against me and allies? Tell the broken alliances that not only were they destroyed by bob, but they didn't even have a chance against an alliance that had every advantage this game has to offer, player earned- or developer hand-out.
This guy didn't just betray his own alliance.
He betrayed every player in eve.
btw own thoughts, not corp/alliance, whatever.
|
Dragerest
Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:10:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
The guy did fess up. At least give him credit for that. I really dont like the idea of anyone losing jobs over this, but maybe Im biased as an old union boy.
CCP: The lesson of this is UNNERF MY FALCON
That is all.
yeah he "fess" up after he was caught. you post was just dumb. so everytime someone does something wrong all they have to say is sorry and it's ok. you must be 9 years old to believe that
|
|
Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:10:00 -
[521]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 09/02/2007 23:13:08
My initial reaction was that t20 should be fired and I was a bit confused as to why he was still employed but after looking at the blogs a second time it really does make sense to let him stay.
Originally by: Hellmar "Upon review I personally would have chosen to act differently, but what's done is done. Difficult decisions always have to be made, and we cannot always second guess how these would appear if, in part, they are revealed to outside parties who do not have the same information to base their choices on."
The above statement is really the key, t20 was punished already for whatever it is he did. That punishment may not seem like enough to many people but its too late now to do anything. Double Jeopardy is what we are really talking about when asking for t20 to lose his job. While it may not seem like this is a long past event it actually is. CCP dealt with this months ago and asking them to dig it up now and change their decision is wrong.
My trust in CCP is shaken but I am confident in whatever steps they take to prevent this from happeneing again. As a community I think we have asked for a lot in the last few days and CCP has given us what we wanted. We now know what happened and what is being done to stop it from happening again, there's not much more we can ask.
t20, I appreciate the apology and explanation and I hope that the rest of the community can do the same. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:11:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I am getting a little sick of the hatred in the thread.
The BPOs are not good. And in real life, you cant kick or fire someone over a "insignificant" thing as this. We are speaking about real life people, with real life work. Real life family. A warning is on its place. But screaming for someones head just over a stupid game, and a happending that did not affect anyone in the game?? The BPOs are litterally worthless!!
T20 have showed us lot of dedication to EVE in his time here. I think its time for us to show him some trust too. Its human to fail once. If it happends again though. Then its another thing. But until that happend, he will have my trust.
Actually we are talking about a real life product, with real life customers paying real life money. -----------------
Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
|
Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:11:00 -
[523]
Please remain on-topic - Serathu ([email protected])
|
Kalissa
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:11:00 -
[524]
I'm sorry to say it, but I just cannot see how T20 can continue to be employed by CCP, he says he's sorry, and I'm sure he is but somehow I don't think he would have been as sorry had he not been caught.
Sorry it was an abuse of trust, he knows it and in my opinion has no place at CCP.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:11:00 -
[525]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) |
Sky lv
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:12:00 -
[526]
Wait, Wait, Wait....
How could this have anything to do with Bob? I thought bob didnt have devs playing in their ranks? Isnt that what we've all concluded after everyone who stated otherwise was TOTALLY BASHED and FLAMED to hell on the forums? Wow....
And this whole thing about only 1 dev did this and only some worthless t2 ammo bpos were used/given is utter BS IMHO, people who really believe this is ALL the help bob has ever gotten I'd like some of what your smoking.
I dont think we' will ever been given the full story because of obvious reasons.
|
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:13:00 -
[527]
I don't believe T20 should be fired. First because overall, he's been pretty nice for the community, second because he asked for forgiveness, and given the uproar this whole affair has already caused, I really don't think he'll do it again. And I feel sory for him...
But I'm a little disappointed to see devs in Bob. The "we play to win" alliance, the one most bent on meta-gaming.
There's still several concerns:
- That GM that stayed for a long time in a goon-sovereignty system two days ago, and who seemed interested by their POS.
- Yesterday, another incident in Fountain, implying a Polaris frig, a gang warp with a bob member, and a safe spot busted only seconds after a ship was there. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:13:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Skooney I just hope that all of you that are being so critical of T20 and CCP remember this when one of you, makes a bad decision in life.
It was a mistake, it has been corrected, lets move on and play the game.
T20 - As far as I am concerned, it takes a real man/woman to stand up and "take it on the chin" - Forgiven!
Let's play EVE!
There is a difference between a mistake and a deliberate act.
Mistake = Whoops *me drops plate of spaghetti and it lands in your lap
Deliberate = *me takes a run-up and slams plate of spaghetti into your face.
One deserves forgiveness the other does not. T20 will always be a cheat, he didnt accidentally press the wrong button on the dev console and spawn himself some bpos, and then accidentally hand them to RKK.
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Pan Crastus
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:14:00 -
[529]
A mere disgraceful tip of the iceberg ... Some players go lucky and uncovered it, but we'll never uncover the rest.
|
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:14:00 -
[530]
It took how long for T20 to admit this? 7 months and some of you are patting him on the back?
...He waited till the water around him warmed up and started to boil then screamed "Okay! I'll confess!"
Bull****! I don't believe this is a full confession, and guess what? We'll never know what else this guy and CCP in general is hiding. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
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Iratus Caelestis
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:14:00 -
[531]
Wow this is almost like having the guy in charge of Aurora events on the BoB christmas card greeting. Of course the fact that you'd always get events going on when there was a chance of Evol coming up. Coincedence that right?
Shame though, I like t20
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K'srah
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:15:00 -
[532]
Edited by: K''srah on 09/02/2007 23:13:39
Originally by: OMG Here's a nice link for all those wanting t20's head: Double Jeopardy
Iceland was not on that list, was it?
p.s. There are two exceptions to the general rule that the prosecution cannot appeal from an acquittal. If the earlier trial is proven to be a fraud or sham, double jeopardy will not prohibit a new trial
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Zosh
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:16:00 -
[533]
Yea this scandal has been posted on many major news sites, and was picked up by digg and slashdot (twice!). CCP are going to lose a lot of new players. A LOT.
Here's some quotes from our recruitment thread (which sucks for us too):
Originally by: Inspector Ratcliffe
wow I was going to try Eve out but this turns me off to the whole thing.
You can safely bet that this is just the tip of the iceberg too. As a general rule people will admit to about 1/3 of what they've actually done.
Originally by: Ryunosuke
yea, any interest i had in this game to join the goons is now gone. They won't fire the guy, or unban the guy who uncovered it, but they'll apologize and say **** and edit stuff in the forums?
yea, **** eve.
I pray for the goonfleet :(
|
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:17:00 -
[534]
Originally by: jeffb Edited by: jeffb on 09/02/2007 23:04:00 Kieron, out of curiosity, do you have a character in BoB? Confirm/Deny?
Neither of these blogs address all the questions raised.
What about ISD & Aurora corruption? Why wasn't a proper investigation done when the LV Hel Aurora event happened? Now you claim its been too long to investigate it. Why was AnthonyZ banned for bringing all this information to light? Why is there a GM flyinig around an alliances moons just as BoB declares war on them?
I think the DEV/ISD/GM breakdown pr. alliances (all of them mind you) would be VERY interesting. I think that would shut up A LOT of people here...
I mean how do you know for sure that GM aint a Goon? Eh? YOU DONT! Thats the point!
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Kerdrak
Amarr 3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:17:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Shadowsword I don't believe T20 should be fired. First because overall, he's been pretty nice for the community, second because he asked for forgiveness
Caught on cheating this game for ages? no... Fire him, this is a game and fairplay is a must. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:17:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Levin Cavil Edited by: Levin Cavil on 09/02/2007 23:10:00
My initial reaction was that t20 should be fired and I was a bit confused as to why he was still employed but after looking at the blogs a second time it really does make sense to let him stay.
Originally by: Hellmar "Upon review I personally would have chosen to act differently, but what's done is done. Difficult decisions always have to be made, and we cannot always second guess how these would appear if, in part, they are revealed to outside parties who do not have the same information to base their choices on."
The above statement is really the key, t20 was punished already for whatever it is he did. That punishment may not seem like enough to many people but its too late now to do anything. Double Jeopardy is what we are really talking about when asking for t20 to lose his job. While it may not seem like this is a long past event it actually is. CCP dealt with this months ago and asking them to dig it up now and change their decision is wrong.
My trust in CCP is shaken but I am confident in whatever steps they take to prevent this from happeneing again. As a community I think we have asked for a lot in the last few days and CCP has given us what we wanted. We now know what happened and what is being done to stop it from happening again, there's not much more we can ask.
TBH what should happen is simple: t20 should resign.
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Imperium
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:17:00 -
[537]
I also suspect that there must have been significant legal advice sought.
If not, it might be a good idea.
Originally by: Griefer Troll Edited by: Griefer Troll on 09/02/2007 22:25:22 What a crock of ****.
My synopsis:
Yes the allegations are true, we've kept you waiting for a week to inform you we are going to do absolutely nothing about these incidents except make hollow and useless promises.
We will admit one charge and deny the others which are extremely hard to prove or disprove. We will make one person a scapegoat, to allow others to continue to abuse their priveleged position as they have been doing for years.
Please keep paying for this game, which pays our wages, so we can continue to play god in a world of our own making.
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:18:00 -
[538]
* Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have. * Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics. * Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players.
And the third is true.
I think this goes to show what's wrong with the current T2 BPO lottery. Having high value items in your game is fine but T2 BPO's are of rediculously high value. I've seen a couple post on the sell forum for close to if not more than the base value of a Titan. This incident should cause CCP to reconsider the entire current T2 mechanics. For the love of god do what you should have to begin with and put 10 BPO's up in each field every week.
That said the ASCN member who suggested at class action suit may just have a point.
Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU! |
Lord XSiV
Amarr The Nine Gates
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:18:00 -
[539]
Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do. Eve would be a better place and more mature people would be more likely to start playing Eve. As it is right now, many people shy away from playing Eve due to this kind of crud. Unfortunately those threatening to quit have been playing the same tune over and over trying to get what they want with no intentions of ever quiting the game. It isn't a threat unless you are actually willing to go through with it; otherwise it is just a bunch of hot air. So to that, if you don't like the outcome and are threatening on leaving, I am calling out your bluff and stating the obligatory 'Can I have your stuff?'
As for the guy who supposedly 'outted' the story, he should remain banned permanantly as CCP has taken the appropriate course of action based upon their own investgation. Hypothetically let me put it to you this way. If some of us players used our influences and abilities that we exhibit in real life as this clown has done, the reprecusions can be quite damaging whereas in the Eve world, you can always turn it off and walk away. The actions taken to obtain the information he has done are considered unethical in the very least and possibly illegal. Stating that he has information that could lead to repercussions against individuals if they don't follow his wishes is considered blackmail and possibly extortion if he is potentially using actions that will directly harm such individuals. It wouldn't be a far stretch for someone to explore these possibilities in the real world if it their area of expertise. It may seem trivial as it is 'just a game' but the reality is that online crime can bring a certain reputation which leads to advancement of one's career.
You can discredit this all you want as rubbish but it is general knowledge that people from many aspects of life play eve; doctors, lawyers, corporate directors, not just students, teenage kids and the 'unemployed' as some think.
Anyhow, CCP did their investigation and having access to all the relevant information did the proper analysis and made the decision based on their own policies. Those who who are crying that the sky is falling don't have access to the details or even the capability to do a proper unbiased analysis if they did so they should just shut up and realize that they are nothing more than a member of the peanut gallery....In this world, CCP runs the justice system and justice has been served. Leave it be and find something else to moan about like balancing Amarr :)
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ph33rf4ct0ry
Minmatar Hookers From Mars
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:19:00 -
[540]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY |
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Mat rix
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:19:00 -
[541]
I see it as gross misconduct and he should be sacked
however i wont let it ruin the game i love to play.
We have a strong community we can overcome this, but ccp needs to be more transparent in there investigations. All ccp players should be investigated to ensure they are all above board.
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Imperium
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:20:00 -
[542]
Oh, and Eve Revelations, indeed.
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:20:00 -
[543]
Edited by: Toshiro Khan on 09/02/2007 23:17:34 **Removed as original comment was deleted**
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Tuschii
Pirates of Destruction Union
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:21:00 -
[544]
Edited by: Tuschii on 09/02/2007 23:17:59 Tuschii does not approve of T20's behavior, I trust ccp to take the correct actions.
/Me hunts out all sabres and subject them to tha pwn. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes - Devil ([email protected]) |
Dark Spartacus
Cross Road
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:22:00 -
[545]
I really think...
...Free Kugutsumen...
And cheaters shall not keep their job, although their apologizing is accepted.
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Abiel Mordecai
Gallente Wings of Redemption
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:22:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
The guy did fess up. At least give him credit for that. I really dont like the idea of anyone losing jobs over this, but maybe Im biased as an old union boy.
NO! He didn't confess, he got caught, and only NOW does he say he's sorry. I have no respect for t20, if he had any feelings of remorse about this he should have confessed, or fixed it sooner. He didn't. He was quite happy with his actions until now. Conveniently, the exact same time that he gets busted, he decides to be "truly sorry" for what he did. Truly sorry is admitting to one's mistakes, not waiting to get caught to be sorry. That's not what being sorry is, that's saying what you think people want to hear.
t20 - if you're truly sorry, why didn't you confess? Or is it just now you've been caught that you've realised it was wrong?
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:22:00 -
[547]
Removed reference to deleted post - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:22:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 09/02/2007 23:01:29 Your leaders are liars and cheaters of the highest magnitude - you've asked us how we can follow Remedial - for all his faults, he's never, ever, come close to what your leaders have done. How can you follow them, after all of this? You called Goonfleet the cancer of EVE ; it is my pleasure to hand the title back to you.
.
very good quote. remedial is not my favourite character but you are so much better than the leaders in bob who knowly cheat
bobs new names BOD CHEATS HAXERS
just add to the list
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Lars Erlkonig
Caldari Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Levin Cavil That punishment may not seem like enough to many people but its too late now to do anything. Double Jeopardy is what we are really talking about when asking for t20 to lose his job.
For those who seem to be a bit uninformed of how legal systems work, Double Jeopardy only applies to CRIMINAL prosecutions. Not civil, corporate, or interpersonal matters.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[550]
I will quit when good and ready, as will the others complaining. Till then we can voice our opinions as much as we wish. Deal with it. We are paying customers fighting for something we love that has been defiled by selfish jerks who deserve much more than they got, and we won't quit till justice is served.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
|
Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[551]
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Can someone link him the PMs from Kugutsmans Blog where it's obvious THEY KNEW ?? --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
WhiteSnake
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[552]
I am pretty sure that K. wasnt right only about t2 distribution, he pointed few other issues. I just wonder did ccp talked with K. and ask him to give the rest of the evidence that he has? couse I ve seen some very interesting screenshots / chatlogs that he has at his site. Eve is great game, CCP employees are commited, no question about it, but does CCP wants to clear everything out? Couse if only one guy is punished, the rest that have cheated or knew about that (there is no doubt about knowning), should be more carefull and cover their tracks better, since they managed to get out with it. In my opinion, either you go and clear it all the way, or leave it as it is and let T20 to enjoy the game, couse letting t20 be the sacrificial lamb is not helping eve community.
|
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Jas Dor
That said the ASCN member who suggested at class action suit may just have a point.
Someone around page 10 pointed out they know of an ASCN dev, and that CLS has alot of tech2 bpo's for some reason...
Maybe in order to get the good stuff in eve, you just have to join a big alliance? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Xander XacXorien
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 09/02/2007 23:06:33
Originally by: Grez You cannot stop the people making this game, playing it, and I for one will STOP paying for and playing this game if they stop. After all, they need feedback, and one of the only ways they can actually check for bugs, or see if the games working or not, is playing it.
Okay, so here's an idea.
Instead of most of the devs diligently and rigorously testing the workings of T2 blueprints, and leading capital fleets into battle, how about they actually spend time playing at the level of most players, and doing the things that most players do?
If the devs want to play so that they are aware of how the game works, then most or all of them should be mining in Ospreys, ratting, doing missions, perhaps participating in small-scale engagements.
Because THAT'S WHAT MOST OF THE PLAYERS DO.
I'm very glad that the heroic devs are willing to test the game experience of the top 0.1% of players, but perhaps they should set their sights a bit lower. And then I would stop doubting that they are actually playing for the good of the game, and not for the good of their own ego.
And maybe if a dev then cheats by spawning 1000 units of illegal Veldspar in his hangar, there won't be such an outcry.
This is EXACTLY my concern.
Most players are playing a nerfed game while the Devs play the game at it's fullest extent.
Dev's playing Eve in 0.0 is leading to distorted development for the Dev's own ends and not the playerbase.
Dev's should not be playing Eve as for them there is no game to play,,, they already know how to win way, way before it's implemented and know how to stick the oar in to stop the people who are taking Eve in the "wrong" direction by their eyes.
Even when you lose in Eve it seems a Dev will always win,,, where is the game in that ?
It's like the PE teacher competing in a school of 5 year olds and walking off with all the prizes,,,
I want my game of Eve back please.
|
thirdeye47
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:23:00 -
[555]
what saddens and angers me is that a third party had to expose ccp, i dont think they know what really goes on, i also feel that this stinks of damage limitations from ccp
|
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:25:00 -
[556]
just read his forums and
Quote:
Spike L Blueprint Malediction Blueprint Quake L Blueprint Barrage L Blueprint Sabre Blueprint Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint
So thats our 2nd interdictor bpo, 2nd malediction bpo, and quite a collection of t2 ammo.
|
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:25:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
The guy did fess up. At least give him credit for that. I really dont like the idea of anyone losing jobs over this, but maybe Im biased as an old union boy.
CCP: The lesson of this is UNNERF MY FALCON
That is all.
I once got caught cheating on a girlfriend. I admitted it after I knew I was caught, even though she didn't have "proof". Guess what? She dumped me.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Ademaro Imre
X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:25:00 -
[558]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: mazzilliu Edited by: mazzilliu on 09/02/2007 20:34:13 :whoah:
any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
Hell no!
Mind you he is NO hero. He is a hacker. And a pretty nasty one. He has broken into more than just web sites. He has hacked actual player accounts. Thats a CLEAR ban. NO discussion.
he is my Hero in this game. What would CCP be doing right now without him? Giving more dirts Dev's more tools to screw the game with?
|
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:26:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do. Eve would be a better place and more mature people would be more likely to start playing Eve. As it is right now, many people shy away from playing Eve due to this kind of crud. Unfortunately those threatening to quit have been playing the same tune over and over trying to get what they want with no intentions of ever quiting the game. It isn't a threat unless you are actually willing to go through with it; otherwise it is just a bunch of hot air. So to that, if you don't like the outcome and are threatening on leaving, I am calling out your bluff and stating the obligatory 'Can I have your stuff?'
As for the guy who supposedly 'outted' the story, he should remain banned permanantly as CCP has taken the appropriate course of action based upon their own investgation. Hypothetically let me put it to you this way. If some of us players used our influences and abilities that we exhibit in real life as this clown has done, the reprecusions can be quite damaging whereas in the Eve world, you can always turn it off and walk away. The actions taken to obtain the information he has done are considered unethical in the very least and possibly illegal. Stating that he has information that could lead to repercussions against individuals if they don't follow his wishes is considered blackmail and possibly extortion if he is potentially using actions that will directly harm such individuals. It wouldn't be a far stretch for someone to explore these possibilities in the real world if it their area of expertise. It may seem trivial as it is 'just a game' but the reality is that online crime can bring a certain reputation which leads to advancement of one's career.
You can discredit this all you want as rubbish but it is general knowledge that people from many aspects of life play eve; doctors, lawyers, corporate directors, not just students, teenage kids and the 'unemployed' as some think.
Anyhow, CCP did their investigation and having access to all the relevant information did the proper analysis and made the decision based on their own policies. Those who who are crying that the sky is falling don't have access to the details or even the capability to do a proper unbiased analysis if they did so they should just shut up and realize that they are nothing more than a member of the peanut gallery....In this world, CCP runs the justice system and justice has been served. Leave it be and find something else to moan about like balancing Amarr :)
QFT :) |
iulixxi
Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:26:00 -
[560]
I dont believe that expelling t20 from CCP will fix any of the problems ... he made a mistake , we all make mistakes , we all fall to the temptation from time to time ... I don't know t20 , never heard of him since cople of days ago , but since he workes for CCP and he is a part of the DEV TEAM i am convinced that is a good guy , he makes good work , fiering him won't help the community ...
ALDO I believe that some messured must be taken, first off all i am 100% against the ideea that DEV and GM are allowed to play (lets not forget that they know things that us, usual players, dont know , they can and - like it seems here - use the game mechanism in their favor or in someone else's favor).
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Gharmin Ra
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:26:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: mazzilliu Edited by: mazzilliu on 09/02/2007 20:34:13 :whoah:
any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
Hell no!
Mind you he is NO hero. He is a hacker. And a pretty nasty one. He has broken into more than just web sites. He has hacked actual player accounts. Thats a CLEAR ban. NO discussion.
And you know that how?
I know I've got orange text in my sig field for having the same sig you have Niaski =) You may not discuss moderation, if you have any questions email us at [email protected] Tirg |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:27:00 -
[562]
Originally by: thirdeye47 what saddens and angers me is that a third party had to expose ccp, i dont think they know what really goes on, i also feel that this stinks of damage limitations from ccp
Well to be fair, CCP didnt create thier Internal Affairs group until a few months ago right?
The created the group to try and stop this in the future, but there was no way of them tracking it in the past. Its a step in the right direction and thats what most people seem to be missing.
=(
I miss the old Eve Community. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:27:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
The guy did fess up. At least give him credit for that. I really dont like the idea of anyone losing jobs over this, but maybe Im biased as an old union boy.
He fessed up after he was caught.
Going to the police station and saying "I did it", is different from the police coming to you and catching. ---
Cache Clearer |
Kitsune Seventails
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:27:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
Absolutly... i fully agree with this.. Its one thing to be a Dev and be in some small little corp or alliance even as a CEO and putter around maybe pirating or making stuff... its another thing to have most of the CCP employees in _ONE_ alliance where they are running the major fleet operations, planning galaxy wide wars against paying customers, sharing aco****s, and giving intimate knowlege of game/server mechanics to this faction.
Its "bravo sierra" and you damn well know it CCP.
Make it right.
PS: Makes you think about all those node-crashes when BoB fleets were about to, or just did warp into a system.... the vast majority of which helped BoB... things that make you go hmmmm knowlege of node limits? peak load times? node-reboot timers... anyone? come on now.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:28:00 -
[565]
Wow so the CEO of CCP posted... you guys know that means this is very serious. I think he can see his job is in jeopardy because when word gets around and REAL articles are written about this, CCP stock will take a dump.
SOE should be buying out CCP any day now. Too bad I liked eve for a while.
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Auri Hella
The Graduates Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:29:00 -
[566]
This is a serious public relations disaster. CCP knew this since last summer and took until now to tell us? This whole situation is bad for everyone. Me not like.
Oh, and whatever you do, sack that cheater. I expect nothing less. Nice guy or not he did something unforgiveable. Bye bye.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:29:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Kerdrak
Originally by: Shadowsword I don't believe T20 should be fired. First because overall, he's been pretty nice for the community, second because he asked for forgiveness
Caught on cheating this game for ages? no... Fire him, this is a game and fairplay is a must.
Have you never done anything wrong? I did, sometimes (nothing really bad, just minor things), and I don't forget them even when the rest in the same period is blurred by memory. And when I think about them, one thing comes to mind: "how could I be such a moron?". Funny thing, feeling guilty: even when your deeds are known only to yourself, they stay branded on your mind, and you never forget them.
The memory of what T20 did, the harm is did to CCP and Eve and his workmates, those memories are punishment enough... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:29:00 -
[568]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Notice no BoB player has shown their face, but a bunch of alts are now arguing that 6 T2 BPO's were "no big deal?"
Seriously guys, you are really not fooling anybody.
Yeah it's very clever to admit some small wrongdoing to quiet down all the people who are suspecting wrongdoings and favoritism on a larger scale ...
I haven't seen BoB on these forums for a while, maybe they got silenced by thier leaders. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Jahah Smith
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:29:00 -
[569]
OK let me say up FRONT that these oponions are mine and in no way reflect the attitude of my alliance. Saying that; here goes.
For me apology accepted, most would rather be fired than have to make a public apology. While I DO believe there should be some sort of punishment; with the public apology and the amount of ridicule that T20 was willing to endure with it termination should not be an option.
As to Devs being involved in Alliance warfare I am all for it. How can the devs understand the situation of a full on alliance battle if they do not experence it for themselves. I have seen the other side of this where devs do not get involved in the game and the issues brought up byh the playerbase not only are not understood; they are ridiculed for what they see by those same devs who also say "Well, we haven't seen that so we do not know what you mean." There is no more frustrating line than that to hear from a Developer. Cheers to CCP for encouraging massive dev interaction.
I know there will most likely be some flames from this post but these are my oponions and will remain such.
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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Citizen Zero
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:30:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Yellow Planet What about the account sharing and other accusations. I have been on the receiving end of being shot though a POS shield by these guys.
I used to think all this stuff was crazy until that faction scorp got popped.
There are so many issues tied into this scandal, of which the BPO's are just the tip of the iceberg, it is hard to know where to start.
Lets start with the most important factor: CASH All of the players of EVE have invested LARGE ammounts of time and more importantly money in this game. I personally have more than 1 account and have paid for YEARS of monthly service on each of them. Additionally I have invested large ammounts of money in web hosting, ventrilo, teamspeak, etc to further the goals of the organizations I have participated in. I have literally spent THOUSANDS of dollars on this game in the last few years.
In the time I have been playing there have been NUMEROUS reports of foul play. For the purposes of accuracy however I will only refer to the 1 incident I was directly and personally involed in which is the incident Yellow Planet is refering to: "I have been on the receiving end of being shot though a POS shield by these guys"
A while back RONA / Imperium attacked BOB in the back part of their space (I was flying the freighter setting up the POS's). I won't re-hash the entire incident here but the long and the short of it is that we had 2 of our POS's setup in their system (Shields active with passwords set) and BOB was able to fly INTO our shields and more importantly they were able to lock and fire on us while we were INSIDE our own POS bubble. We however were not able to target any of the BOB players from inside our bubble. Not even those BOB members who entered the shield.
Here is an "explanation" of these events from Rod Blaine of BOB in the original "corruption thread that started this: Linkage
"That day we got to shoot you through your pos shields was rather funny actually. I surprised us to notice that some of the ships we were shooting actually were in the shields, and that warping to the moon at zero landed us inside the shields as well iirr. I was there, as you were, and saw it."
Even if we accept this explanation of "we found out how to do this on accident" defense on face value, the fact still remains that once they "discovered" how to do this, their ENTIRE fleet EXPLOITED this and persisted in doing so until we were wiped out or run off.
At the time this occured there was a clearly stated rule from CCP that "Any player found utilizing an exploit will have their account banned". Needless to say nobody was banned even though fraps were provided identifying all parties involved.
It is incidents like these where rules set by CCP are glossed over or ignored that people get ****ed. The GM / Dev involved in the BPO scandal is not being fired. The players involved in the above incident were not banned or even penalized.
As many people have already mentioned the "polluting" effect of this incident (the BPO's) is HUGE. Simply removing the BPO's is not sufficient. Yes its a start but what about all the items produced? BPC's sold, units sold, units used in combat for "free", players losses contributed to by the use of these items?
As to developers etc playing the game, thats fine. But they should be restricted to NPC corps and not allowed to have any ISK or item transactions with players in game nor should they be allowed to participate in corp / alliance engagements.
1 set of FAIR rules for everyone. Players & Devs. Then enforce them consistantly. We the players have no sense that the game is fair or balanced. We deserve a real and COMPLETE accounting of these issues and not just an "apology" or a "we are looking into it... no really"
Thanks, CZ |
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:30:00 -
[571]
I'm sure my small voice won't make a mote of difference amongst all this screaming and wailing, but I will say my piece all the same.
I'm disapointed to hear that these things were true. I had hoped that it was some regular player who had gained the BPOs through normal means, then once learning of his job at CCP simply passed them on. To learn that they were dev spawned is quite the major let down.
I'm pleased to see CCP making it public. What nearly all posters here are overlooking is that they could have just as easily said, "we found nothing, your hacker friend is misleading you". They didn't. And that had to be a hard decision.
I'm disapointed in the player community here. I'd say that over 90% of the posters in this thread are... immature at best.
Can't be easy being hung out on the yardarm, T20. Respect for making the public statement. Very disapointed though. It's not so much the BPOs themselves, it's the apparent necessary frame of mind. It casts doubts on many of BoB's achievements. All those alliance tourney wins and the like suddenly seem suspicious. What might have been whispered in whos ear? Achievements that might be honestly deserved take a hit. That's the cost.
All this hero worship of Kugutsumen needs to be rethought. He seems to be quite the unsavory character and many of you I'm sure would change your tune if he was posting your alliance's dirty laundry. Just because it happened to turn into an outting of dev misconduct doesn't suddenly make that some saintly activity. Remember that he was hired by Goonswarm for something else, but then he stumbled upon this stuff. He needs to stay banned imo.
Originally by: Karash Amerius Video Games are often a mirror of life it seems. So many people are here, in this thread, unknowingly yelling to the world all their insecurities in life. They throb, yell, and bleed virtual tears on how someone is 'robbing' them...in ways that I care not.
All over some 1s and 0s. Binary bits that only represent a dream...a moving peice of artwork that everyone gets to paint. Its a sad commentary on the game and its community...but, it is also just a reflection of life.
We could all learn something from Karash I think.
------------------- Ignorance |
Medical One
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:30:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: jeffb Edited by: jeffb on 09/02/2007 23:04:00 Kieron, out of curiosity, do you have a character in BoB? Confirm/Deny?
Neither of these blogs address all the questions raised.
What about ISD & Aurora corruption? Why wasn't a proper investigation done when the LV Hel Aurora event happened? Now you claim its been too long to investigate it. Why was AnthonyZ banned for bringing all this information to light? Why is there a GM flyinig around an alliances moons just as BoB declares war on them?
I think the DEV/ISD/GM breakdown pr. alliances (all of them mind you) would be VERY interesting. I think that would shut up A LOT of people here...
I mean how do you know for sure that GM aint a Goon? Eh? YOU DONT! Thats the point!
The difference is when ya reach the status of bob in a game such as this, everyone starts looking at how you accomplished it.. how many titans do goons have? or how many hac and other t2 bpos do they have? etc... etc..
but again.... bob has NO devs playing in the ranks in the first place ffs!
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Ademaro Imre
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:31:00 -
[573]
Originally by: iulixxi I dont believe that expelling t20 from CCP will fix any of the problems ... he made a mistake , we all make mistakes , we all fall to the temptation from time to time ...
Would that apply to me if I buy a third party macro mining program and if and when I am caught - I make a public apology? No - CCP would permaban me. But if give myself multiple t2 bpo's - that's OK? are you insane?
t20 is a disgrace to all MMORPG's, and a disgrace to CCP, and a disgrace to Eve. Kick that idiot from the game.
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grjot
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:31:00 -
[574]
I guess I will put my account on hold if we do not see any further actions from CCP.
A note for the management team of CCP: You might want to consider your business model and your employees. If they don't realize that this is a game then you should help them get a life.
As for your re-action of removing those BPO's from the game and removing caracters that belong to developers this is not enough. Cheating seems to be the main consern in this case and that is not only related to this individual developer who I assume will be looking for a new job but also those who were aware of his status and accepted the items he got them knowing they were aquired by illegal methods. In my opinion, "cheaters" in any form are never good and the game will be better without them as a whole. Get rid of them and make the game better - think long term not short term.
I am fairly sure that I am not the only customer you are about to loose, there are probably others who are thinking the same. When friends in an on-line game are becoming more important then real-life issues (loosing customers) it is time for the owners of CCP to step in and do some serious in-house cleaning. Maybe you should consider using outside sources to conduct your reserch, you might not like what you find but in the long run it will be good for CCP to show how seriously you consider this problem.
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Miss Franches
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:31:00 -
[575]
I just need to say this. Sorry CCP.
You have actively applied a policy of censoring the community. Do you really think this is possible in 2007 without major negative effect? The way you have handled this tiny situation is the worst I have ever seen! The hole community understand that you are hiding things from us to try damage prevention.
You seems to think that it's ok for developers to multi account with capitol fleets and destroy the hard work of your customers. Thats like shooting yourself in the leg.
You should now release some rules for your developers and the hole community should understand these rules and the rational behind them. I understand developers need to play this game and they also need to participate in the 0.0 politics (yea, also in BoB), but they should not be allowed to multi account with dread accounts and have 10 alts in the same alliance. Then something is wrong with the internal rules in your company. I might be wrong and you might have good reasons to allow your developers to do this, but then please explain us why? I'm sure we will understand!
Now try to fix this wonderful game and lets hope the damage can be repaired and trust can be increased again.
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OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:31:00 -
[576]
I really hope that CCP doesn't decide to just hide the rest of the investigation and call it over.
The playerbase wants CCP to seek redemption by confessing all their cheats and exploits and then fix them.
The word is out
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Clementina
Eye of God X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:32:00 -
[577]
I am happy that CCP has decided to attempt to come clean. However, There actually are a few parts of this that are yet to be resolved, and I wish for a resolution in the near future. In no particular order they are.
(0) Is the developer t20 still employed at CCP Games? If so, why? (1) The leadership of BoB has knowingly benefited from the corruption of t20, however they have yet to be punished. Is it against the rules to receive illegitimate items if you are aware of their illegitimacy? If so, why haven't people that have done such a thing been punished? (2) A character named Sir Molle, who is a member of the leadership of BoB, has posted personal information about someone on the forums, but has yet to be punished. Why? (3) Another Character named DB Preacher, also a leader of BoB, has allegedly received an account from another person (according to the EULA whether the account was 'sold' or 'given away' is immaterial. account transfers are not allowed) She has yet to be punished. Why? (4) BoB has a policy of sharing cynofield generating alts. However sharing accounts is against the End User License Agreement? Why haven't the people who share these accounts been punished? (5) What is the policy that developers are supposed to pursue when players in corps they are a member of conspire to exploit or otherwise break the End User License Agreement? Are they obligated to report the breech in any way? (6) Other alliances may have also used developer connections to cheat in this game. I cannot name names because I don't know any. Have developers withing these alliances been investigated, has anything been found with regards to this line on inquiry. (7) *snip* (8) A character by the name of Kugutsumen was banned for whistle blowing. Is there any plan in the future for reinstating his accounts?
That is all I can think of, I'm sure you will handle my concerns as well as the concerns of the rest of the playerbase in a professional manner consistent with the truth.
Please do not discuss moderation on the forums - email us instead - Serathu ([email protected])
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Imperium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:32:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Imperium Oh, and Eve Revelations, indeed.
Shortly to be followed by Eve: Crusade. ;-) lmao.
Hey BoD, btw, Proof. ;)
(sorry to quote myself)
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Garonis
Caldari Templars of Space CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:35:00 -
[579]
I am sorry to say that my trust in ccp is at an all time low. This happened so long ago and is just now coming to light. And from a hacked scource. As for T-20... what were you thinking man??
Imho i dont think t-20 needs to loose his job.... just his ability to play EVE covertly for a while. Flame away all you who want him fired, but this is a black mark on him and his ENTIRE career. I wouldnt want that kind of blood on my hands. This is my sig ^^ |
Karasuma Akane
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:35:00 -
[580]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr 1) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to stay in the same corp for over 6 months (leads to favoritism) 2) No CCP employee should ever be allowed to accept a leadership position in ANY corp/alliance (DEFINATELY a conflict of interest)
Originally by: Cedori While I appreciate the thought that it is not possible to properly balance this game without being able to play it, it should be a rule set in stone from up on high, that no Dev can join any of the "high-end" alliances, and no Dev should EVER become a director within said alliance. Human nature being what it is, nobody can reasonably be expected to not take sides/play favorites with a corp that they are a director of. Merely having Devs in these corps is enough to paint the whole exercise with an unfavorable light, and having one as a director will lead directly to accusations of favoritism.
Originally by: Rusla To have 5 members of the CCP dev team playing together in one of the most powerful corps in Eve, (even if there is nothing underhand going on behind the scenes) will always leave them open to criticism, as the perception of corruption is now so great within the Eve Community. You say that the devs must play the game. Fair enough, they must. But they should not be in a position where they can be perceived to swing political landscape. IMO, CCP should not allow more than 1 dev to play in any alliance, and while they do, the whiff of corruption will never go away.
Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur I admit Devs have to play the game but DEVS should not be allowed to play within major alliances or corp.
Originally by: Dr Felonius What aspect of the game could they not fully experience if they used temporary characters with arbitrary resources to participate? If a dev wants to see how fleet battles are going on Tranquility, he or she could create a new char with a standard skill set, spawn a BS with a standard fit, and fly with some alliance, fully and openly. The CCP IA guys could promise to do an immediate audit of the battle. Experiencing the game does not, in my opinion, require secret dev accounts nor participation at the highest political levels. Even if that level of participation does help the devs, they ought to be willing to forego it in order to put this scandal behind them. Only a new culture of openness and accountability can put this issue to rest forever.
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Instead of most of the devs diligently and rigorously testing the workings of T2 blueprints, and leading capital fleets into battle, how about they actually spend time playing at the level of most players, and doing the things that most players do? If the devs want to play so that they are aware of how the game works, then most or all of them should be mining in Ospreys, ratting, doing missions, perhaps participating in small-scale engagements. Because THAT'S WHAT MOST OF THE PLAYERS DO. I'm very glad that the heroic devs are willing to test the game experience of the top 0.1% of players, but perhaps they should set their sights a bit lower. And then I would stop doubting that they are actually playing for the good of the game, and not for the good of their own ego.
I agree that developers shouldn't be active in any of the major corporations/alliances, and DEFINITELY should not be in any corporate/alliance leadership positions. Let them be anonymous 'just another corpmember' players in their personal aspects (these personal accounts must be made known to Internal Affairs so they can be monitored), and if there needs to be experience/testing of higher level corp/alliance activities, have it be done through an identified and official CCP account at work only for these observation purposes.
Aside from that, developers should be spending their playing time cruising in Jove battleships, blasting macrominers and macromissioners to bits.
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FBIJustice
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:36:00 -
[581]
I go back to what i said DEV no play if it was anyone else in this game we would be banned on the spot. [url=http://www.fbi-clan.org][/url] |
h4x0
Caldari Apostles of Insanity
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:36:00 -
[582]
The problems I see in this case are just icing to the already burnt cake.
People in this game are treated unjustly and without warrant removed form the game all the time.
I myself had my main character banned of 3 plus years multi billions in isk and modules and bpos/c's dread carriers etc.
I was told that my character was banned for me placing it on e-bay.. I never did anything like that as I would not be here now on this character if I wanted to quit...
I fought it for a month and was told that someone had to have access to my account posted it..
I see now that it could have been a jealous GM OR GM plotting againt me. (My main is FatBalls) I have more enemies than friends and it would not surprise me that this is the way i would leave eve by being banned on my main and eventually giving up..
This is just the kind of thing that will push many over the top seeing favoratism to people whom have admitted to wrong doing and persecuting those whom are truly innocent.
I am asking once again that with all these things coming to light that perhaps a senior GM look into the FatBalls case and when they see it was not me perhaps say sorry and send me my money back for the three months I was charged and was banned and then maybe re-activate my account.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:36:00 -
[583]
What I really want to know is if the one who placed the complexes ever had a player account in BoB you'll never jump alone |
Ishiko Tanaka
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:36:00 -
[584]
Originally by: kieron We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response. Quote:
Originally by: kieron Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
You have yet to actually address the lingering questions. Do you plan on doing so?
All you have done now is attempt to lie to the playerbase by sacrificing one of your employees.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:37:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Clementina
(8) A character by the name of Kugutsumen was banned for whistle blowing. Is there any plan in the future for reinstating his accounts?
HACKER! Ok?
Hacked player accounts! Bad! Banned!
Anyone who registered at his site should be changing passwords on EVERYTHING the access if they where stupid enough to reuse a pw there.
Dont make a hero out of him. He is NOT by any means a hero.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:37:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kerdrak
Originally by: Shadowsword I don't believe T20 should be fired. First because overall, he's been pretty nice for the community, second because he asked for forgiveness
Caught on cheating this game for ages? no... Fire him, this is a game and fairplay is a must.
Have you never done anything wrong? I did, sometimes (nothing really bad, just minor things), and I don't forget them even when the rest in the same period is blurred by memory. And when I think about them, one thing comes to mind: "how could I be such a moron?". Funny thing, feeling guilty: even when your deeds are known only to yourself, they stay branded on your mind, and you never forget them.
The memory of what T20 did, the harm is did to CCP and Eve and his workmates, those memories are punishment enough...
Society is made by rules - we all follow them or pay the consequences.
Regret, remorse, shame,, are nothing but emotions. Some people have them, others do not or at least are in some way warped.
Punishment is in the main there to make the perpitrator reflect on there mistake.
It's time to make those involve reflect on their mistakes and they need the time to do it.
All those involved, including those who knew about the situation should be banned - never to play Eve again. Any employees involved should be disciplined. If the company rules have not been followed then the person not following those rules should be disciplined.
This is life as we all know it.
As I have gotten older I relise if I have made a mistake then I should own up to the mistake as soon as I relise it. I have honour, debt and obligation to others that demands it.
I don't see any honour, any recognition of debt or obligation by T20 to his fellow collegues or CCP in his actions.
It's time for the lesson to be taught.
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Sigmorhair
Gallente Eisenmetal
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:41:00 -
[587]
I don't know what to think of this.
I believe this admission was forced on pain of being fired. Fine - the admission is there and kudos for that I guess. It is more than I expected to be honest.
What is bad though is I doubt this is the only incident (and we all know of plenty of others - the LV Mothership comes to mind as one that has already been admitted to but happened "too long ago" to be investigated.
The bad part is so many in Bob obviously knew about this for a long time and somehow thought it was acceptable, and even worse, spammed lies about it on these boards and got away with it.
Band of Cheaters indeed.
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:42:00 -
[588]
Is any of this merited until we GET ANY more replies from CCP? And I don't think mods !
We YELL at you CCP because we LOVE EVE.
Do you? --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
mishkof
Caldari Emerald Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:42:00 -
[589]
Sorry CCP.
A public apology over the internet on the forums is not a threatening punishment. I personaly dont want to play a rigged game. To many other possibilities out there.
I guess the Devs paycheck isnt enough.
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:43:00 -
[590]
Edited by: Philo Farnsworth on 09/02/2007 23:39:51
Originally by: Ishiko Tanaka
Originally by: kieron We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
Originally by: kieron Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
You have yet to actually address the lingering questions. Do you plan on doing so?
All you have done now is attempt to lie to the playerbase by sacrificing one of your employees.
So what would satisfy the bloodlust of the mob? Multiple devs getting fired? Sack the whole team? Seriously, they investigated, they actually found wrong-doing. They reported that wrong-doing. They did so when and how they said they would. What do people want?
Let's clean up everything in Eve. I'm all for that. For example, alliances who systematically abused the Eve client with portrait hacks, like Goonswarm, should be punished. Same with illegal GTC rings. Ban everyone who touched that stuff. That kicks 1000 Goonies? What a shame. Yes it's a hit, but it's the *principle*.
Every single Goonie calling for CCP blood who ever used that client hack is a liar and a hypocrite.
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:43:00 -
[591]
Originally by: Evil Thug - 6 months of owning sabre bpo. Sabres currently selling for 30m isk, and you are able to build 2.5 sabres \ day. Its around 13.5b, or minerals for mothership. What are you going to do with those money ? Please, keep in mind, that you are made already strong corp more stronger.
You're supposed to shoot at me, not make the same argument as me, ET. Please fix.
Originally by: Nev Clavain Is there some kind of higher subscription I can pay to get a Dev to help my alliance out? A few T2 bpos to profit off for a few years would be great. Having a Dev leading our fleets, that would be real handy too.
This thread was won right here. I will post no more.
--P
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar RONA Deepspace Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:43:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
You're kidding right? They probably made a fortune off these selling the missiles on the market.
In soviet Russia signatures change you: [violet]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:43:00 -
[593]
Originally by: Athelas Loraiel
Originally by: Blacklight Very very difficult to post in this thread from my point of view. Not because I feel either myself or my mates that I play Eve with are cheats but because one man, an employee of CCP no less has let us all down, most of all he's let all of BoB down.
We play hard but I firmly believe we play fair and to have the rug pulled out from beneath us like this is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I'll blog about the issue from my perspective when I am done moving house and stuff so could be a week or so.
Not much more I can say really except that I am sickened and saddened to learn that a CCP employee in my alliance cheated.
Can someone link him the PMs from Kugutsmans Blog where it's obvious THEY KNEW ??
Register on his site. It'll be there :) I can't link it since it's against the forum rules (*sigh*) ...Free Kugutsumen... |
ph33rf4ct0ry
Minmatar Hookers From Mars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:44:00 -
[594]
Edited by: ph33rf4ct0ry on 09/02/2007 23:40:47
Originally by: WhiteSnake I am pretty sure that K. wasnt right only about t2 distribution, he pointed few other issues. I just wonder did ccp talked with K. and ask him to give the rest of the evidence that he has?
CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY |
Aknot Wat
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:45:00 -
[595]
Edited by: Aknot Wat on 09/02/2007 23:41:36 I knew back in beta that CCP HAD to have their people in various corps and alliances as a force in order to make a successful game world. Beyond "player events".
The simple truth is eVe could not survive or be controlled in a mannor that makes for a good money making business unless CCP excersised some "insider" control. So I expected it.
It was beyond obvious, as many of my posts ranted on in these forums, that BoB was getting insider help. I just learned that, like real world politics, this was a fact of eVe life. And thus learned to deal with it.
Do I think it was a crappy thing? Yes. Do I think they would /should do it again or keep on doing it? Yes. It's the only way to make the game work.
Give the players the "sense" they have control, while really they don't. It's business.
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Vasili Z
Beasts of Burden YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:45:00 -
[596]
Wait a minute?
These are the blueprints stolen: Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Blueprint Spike L Blueprint Sabre Blueprint
Who gives a ****? I was expecting HAC blueprints or something that actually mattered. Talk about getting blown out of proportion.
OH GOD, BOB'S HAX BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOTS OF SABREZ AND MIZZILES BAN THEIR ACCOUNTS. Anyone who complained about this sucks hard. What a joke. -- Whatever I said I said while drunk and doesn't reflect my alliance or corporation's views. |
Coasterbrian
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:45:00 -
[597]
Edited by: Coasterbrian on 09/02/2007 23:42:12 What I love is how everyone said CYVOK and Riddari were full of crap......
The truth is a *****, ain't it?
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Obed
Imperial Logistics
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:46:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
That's nice.
I quit.
T20 and anybody else involved in this simply must go. Istvaan's an EVE legend in this game - if he's quiting then something really isn't right
-----
I have 1 account and 0 alts. |
Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:47:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Citizen Zero
Originally by: Yellow Planet What about the account sharing and other accusations. I have been on the receiving end of being shot though a POS shield by these guys.
I used to think all this stuff was crazy until that faction scorp got popped.
A while back RONA / Imperium attacked BOB in the back part of their space (I was flying the freighter setting up the POS's). I won't re-hash the entire incident here but the long and the short of it is that we had 2 of our POS's setup in their system (Shields active with passwords set) and BOB was able to fly INTO our shields and more importantly they were able to lock and fire on us while we were INSIDE our own POS bubble. We however were not able to target any of the BOB players from inside our bubble. Not even those BOB members who entered the shield.
Here is an "explanation" of these events from Rod Blaine of BOB in the original "corruption thread that started this: Linkage
"That day we got to shoot you through your pos shields was rather funny actually. I surprised us to notice that some of the ships we were shooting actually were in the shields, and that warping to the moon at zero landed us inside the shields as well iirr. I was there, as you were, and saw it."
Even if we accept this explanation of "we found out how to do this on accident" defense on face value, the fact still remains that once they "discovered" how to do this, their ENTIRE fleet EXPLOITED this and persisted in doing so until we were wiped out or run off.
At the time this occured there was a clearly stated rule from CCP that "Any player found utilizing an exploit will have their account banned". Needless to say nobody was banned even though fraps were provided identifying all parties involved.
It is incidents like these where rules set by CCP are glossed over or ignored that people get ****ed. The GM / Dev involved in the BPO scandal is not being fired. The players involved in the above incident were not banned or even penalized.
CZ
NOoooo? They REALY did that?
Anyone else in ASCN was in OOYZ looking at Aftershock's carrier being shot at in POS shield? --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
Blood Thorn
Minmatar AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:47:00 -
[600]
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
Thank you Kieron and CCP for taking this so seriously.
One of the most important aspects of maintaining integrity in this type of environment is to establish a Code of Ethics pertaining to the what is and isn't allowed from those with a special relationship to the companty. I am certain you have this internally, but to be transparent it should be made public.
Please develop/publish this information and display it in a prominent place. (and I apologize if I have missed the already existing public document) ----- Let the galaxy burn |
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:47:00 -
[601]
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
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Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Kernel Sander
Also, Kgutsumen needs to have all of his accounts re-activated. If he gets busted breaking the rules in some other way, then you can feel free to ban him, but this time he got caught out exposing fraud in CCP's corporate practices, so he has a Get Out of Jail Free card. It is doubly shameful of CCP to ban him for whistelblowing - and regardless of what rules he broke to gain his information, the whistleblowing is the only item of importance at this juncture.
Amen. In the real world, if someone breaks the law to whistle blow (breaking an entry to find out someone murdered another person (persective of "crime" commited withstanding)), they get a light tap on the wrist, and the person who commited the real "crime", gets punished. t20 hasn't been punished (as far a we, the players can tell), and Kgutsumen is still banned for doing us all a favour, and bringing this to light. You for one (CCP), should be greatful to him for bringing this to light. ---
Cache Clearer |
Kruzenshtern
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[603]
The admittance is a good first step. However, as CCP should, and is fully aware, this complex game universe creates long tails for any unplanned incursions. The salvaged forum logs fully and very simply indicate the presence of sharing game mechanics details ("t2o secrets", leaked AT LEAST across BoB directorate). This could, and had impact which is impossible to measure both due to it's intangible nature AND due to the immensity of the consequences. Same goes to the *effects* of the BPOs given out. As in profits and objects created. And anything else subsequently bought for these profits.
You should employ the same policy used in the 4S renaming crisis. Those guilty should be punished. I am sorry to say this, but by their actions (including current despicable harping on the whole incident by ship naming and blatant "we're gms/devs/whatever" so-called jokes in local), and by actions of most probably well-meaning devs in the Band of Brothers alliance, they have brought the necessity of nerf bat to hit that very alliance. Because they have partaken of forbidden fruit, and lied about it, and most of things they said they didn't do are now being proved to really happen, so there is no trust, and there is no way to measure the impact over time; so nerf bat it should be, one way or the other.
Oh, and unban the whistle-blower, at least until you ban all those who lied, as he has so far been proved right, not wrong.
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Skooney
Gallente Universal Agencies
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Nev Clavain
Originally by: Skooney I just hope that all of you that are being so critical of T20 and CCP remember this when one of you, makes a bad decision in life.
It was a mistake, it has been corrected, lets move on and play the game.
T20 - As far as I am concerned, it takes a real man/woman to stand up and "take it on the chin" - Forgiven!
Let's play EVE!
There is a difference between a mistake and a deliberate act.
Mistake = Whoops *me drops plate of spaghetti and it lands in your lap
Deliberate = *me takes a run-up and slams plate of spaghetti into your face.
One deserves forgiveness the other does not. T20 will always be a cheat, he didnt accidentally press the wrong button on the dev console and spawn himself some bpos, and then accidentally hand them to RKK.
Play symantics however you like. What he did was a mistake in judgement. Not unlike many of us have done in real life.
If I slammed a plate of spaghetti in your face, that may be poor judgment or a mistake in my actions.
Regardless - This being blown WAY out of porportion.
Just remember this the next time you are caught using poor judgement, or make a mistake. That is my only point.
Universal Agencies
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[605]
All very disappointing. As much as I think that it is a good thing that the Devs play the game (just look at SWG for a game where people NOT playing the game make the decissions *shudders*), something like this shouldn't have been possible in the first place.
If t20 is to keep his job he at least should never be allowed to play on Tranquility again while he is an employee of CCP.
Ceterum censeo 'Concordia' esse delendam.
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ph33rf4ct0ry
Minmatar Hookers From Mars
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
Genius let's hire a convicted hacker to hack our customer bases forums!!!!!!!!!!!
Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[607]
Originally by: Kitsune Seventails * Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP. [/quote
This would be a threat to the general player base, so absolutely not. Mind you he only did this out of self interest, not some high flying idealism.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:49:00 -
[608]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
Yes, hire a hacker, that broke into forums and player accounts. good idea! is everyone in goonswarm this smart? How's your cat btw? |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[609]
I have an easy solution. Allow the devs to only play as members of the pirate factions.
This way they can be involved in the game, test out fleet battles and *gasp* maybe NOT GIVE PLAYER ALLIANCES UNFAIR ADVANTAGES
easy.
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Bawldeux IV
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[610]
Originally by: SamuraiJack Point 1) Hmm... wheres the bob blob? Guess they got told to shut up and let this burn out.
Point 2) Just a game? How about you have YOUR allaince booted out of your space by "influnced" Allaince with "favor" in high places. See what you think.
Point 3) CCP needs to sort this and fast and also look at the other favouritism that has gone on. Complexes, Account sharing, Petitions (how long did it take you to get your stuff back vs the opposing allaince?)
CCP is in a PR landslide. Fix it... or you will die trying.
Based on the way ccp handled this, we can assume that those that benefited from this, will get off without a loss, nothing done, while those that suffered from the 'misconduct' (nice way to say "F'ing over the paying customers"), will get laughed at behind closed doors while the devs get drunk, and count OUR subscription money.
I know I wont resub when my gtc runs out.
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dathi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[611]
this is a prue and utter disgrace.... t20 should loose his job, as stated by helmirr ccp rules state basically you cheat your fired... this is an admited (forcably) confession to cheating by 1 dev, so far, whos to say that other devs in other alliances have not sucomb to temptation and done exactually the same?
there are majour issues this discovery brings to the forfront of the comunity, its a shame that this has runed my love for this game......
i will be viglintly wathing this debachal unfold....
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nillis
Caldari Dark Light Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[612]
Its pretty sad to think,if 'somone' hadnt used some questionable methods,we wouldnt have known about any of this.
I'm having a real Tinfoil moment here,but there has to be more to it than just this.
----------------------------------------------- There are only two people I trust. One of them is me,the other,isn't you |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Register on his site. It'll be there :) I can't link it since it's against the forum rules (*sigh*)
Why do you think you ahev to REGISTER to get this info from this HACKER?
Engage brains please...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Destructor1792
Minmatar Trade and Research Technologies R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 23:51:00 -
[614]
After reading the blog, the only option this guy has is to resign and cancel all accounts within CCP.
He has given alliances a BAD name & if this was you or me, we'd be hoofed out our job!!
Now people will be judgemental and say whichever Alliance was involved have now had an unfair advantage for the past 9mnths. I understand this and agree to a point yet we must be adult in this disclosure & be rational.
The BPO's were return. prehaps a mail to whichever alliance to warn them that any profits made from these were against the EULA (which they were) and give them a set amount of time to bolster their wallets to cover the offset.
Unfair to the alliance I know, yet fair to the Eve community.
This is (after all) a game, but by cheating & using mechanics which are not available to the rest of the community, this is the only fair option that I see fit for the culprit (and unfortunately the corp/alliance he was in).
______________________________________
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:52:00 -
[615]
What... everyone out of breath? I finally caught up with the last page and...
silence... ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:52:00 -
[616]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) |
Vasili Z
Beasts of Burden YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:52:00 -
[617]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
Yes, hire a hacker, that broke into forums and player accounts. good idea! is everyone in goonswarm this smart? How's your cat btw?
The entire idea of people complaining about cheating while the only way they got the proof was through BREAKING THE LAW is pretty hilarious in the first place.
But don't let that stop you, your COOODDEEE of ethics has been broken, everybody on eve unite against the horrible human being who took a few crappy blueprints. God, cut. -- Whatever I said I said while drunk and doesn't reflect my alliance or corporation's views. |
kaahooters
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:52:00 -
[618]
this is a prue and utter disgrace.... t20 should loose his job, as stated by helmirr ccp rules state basically you cheat your fired... this is an admited (forcably) confession to cheating by 1 dev, so far, whos to say that other devs in other alliances have not sucomb to temptation and done exactually the same?
there are majour issues this discovery brings to the forfront of the comunity, its a shame that this has runed my love for this game......
i will be viglintly wathing this debachal unfold....
(oiginally with incorect charactor)
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Voltron
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:52:00 -
[619]
Glad to see you've developed an IA dept. It does go a long way, at least in my eyes, to rebuilding CCP's credibility/integrity.
Make no bones about it, you've lost a tonne of credibility with a boatload of your subscribers i.e. your paycheque. I'm sure not everyone cares about the whole situation, and that others are just ticked b/c the alliance involved was BOB. There are more still that are simply ticked with the breach of integrity, thats where I sit personally. However the step mentioned above should help you in your journey to repair what has been lost.
As for making an exception to the rule for one dev...never a good idea, ever. Consistency is key to dealing with infractions; ESPECIALLY infractions that dictate termination of employment when broken. I completely understand that some situations do indeed require understanding and leniancy, however if the dev in question wasn't going through several serious life issues at the moment then you probably should have maintained your claimed previous consistency.
Still, kudos for creating such a department, I truly hope they exhibit the same commitment to the rules and integrity that Hellmar does.
Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:53:00 -
[620]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:53:00 -
[621]
t20 isn't sorry for what he did, he's sorry he was caught.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:54:00 -
[622]
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Genius let's hire a convicted hacker to hack our customer bases forums!!!!!!!!!!!
I would be satisfied if CCP demonstrated a commitment to transparency.
However, the only reason we are here today is because the "convicted hacker" revealed the snake in the grass and because we threadnaughted it.
I love EVE. If it takes a "convicted hacker" to restore the integrity of the game, then that says more about CCP than it says about the "hacker," don't you think?
Oh hey, what about that GM that was scouting our POS in 28Y last night?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:54:00 -
[623]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 09/02/2007 23:51:54 That's the prints he admitted to, as was said when our group discussed it, why would he risk his job for such a crap set of prints, simple answer, he didn't...
Fire t20. Disband Band of Brothers Repo all their tech II blueprints and re-seed. Heal0 all their capital ships.
Also Known As |
Hiberto DeCasta
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:55:00 -
[624]
What's done is done. Let's make sure it doesn't happen again. An advantage gained throught training and experience is one thing, but, advantage "given" is another. If I were one of those that devoted a lot of time to a research agent, I'd be really ****ed! As long as they will be re-introduced I have no problem.
I also believe in second chances! I hope that those at CCP feel the same way, and can find some way punish t20 other than termination (that is if no policy had been previouly implemented). However, if a FIRM "termination" policy was already in place, then t20 must now lie in the bed he has made.
I happen to be one of those subscribers who enjoy this game immensely (almost insanely) and would hate to see something like this tarnish CCP and EVE-online's reputation. Now lets move on to improving/expanding an already great game.
Cheers HD
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Sliver Jade
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:55:00 -
[625]
Fire t20.
Ban all individuals who took advantage of t20's cheating ways.
Ban all individuals who knew about t20's cheating ways.
To do anything less is a disgrace.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:55:00 -
[626]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Genius let's hire a convicted hacker to hack our customer bases forums!!!!!!!!!!!
I would be satisfied if CCP demonstrated a commitment to transparency.
However, the only reason we are here today is because the "convicted hacker" revealed the snake in the grass and because we threadnaughted it.
I love EVE. If it takes a "convicted hacker" to restore the integrity of the game, then that says more about CCP than it says about the "hacker," don't you think?
Oh hey, what about that GM that was scouting our POS in 28Y last night?
No, it says more about the people who condone people breaking the law to win at a game. Go you! |
Kilrauko
Caldari BlackTalon Mining Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:56:00 -
[627]
Some of you people are really amazing; "I quit..." "I feel ill..." "I dont know what to think..."
Anyways;
I'm glad it came up, I'm impressed that the ceo replied to this issue. I still trust you CCP, you have less corruption in you then say in FBI, CIA or Scotland yard. And that's something most of the people here are forgetting. I still recommend this game to my friends and no I dont post to any gaming magazines how one of your employees did a mistake. I still trust kieron and other devs, anybody considered why he didnt post more of the matter back then was simple because he was following the contract he had signed? The police doesnt tell all the facts of the criminals during investigation either and neither should CCP tell about the matters that can be considered as corporate secrets. I hope the work T20 did can be easily continued by another member of the dev team or even better yet, perhaps T20 can be given a position suited for his skills & the trust you have in him.
I'm thankful for community to support another drama thread with lots of moaning and other stuff
Now since it's Friday let's all do more drinking and less wrist cutting mkay?
Cheers! -Kil
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Sogarth
Amarr Apache Corp EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:56:00 -
[628]
Trust, Honour and Integrity
IÆm afraid that T20Æs statement leaves me feeling ôsacrificial lamb to the slaughterö
To regain the trust of the community and restore its integrity, CCP you need to take drastic action
Any and all employeeÆs found to be involved should be dealt with in the severest manner, and make it known.
Any player known to be involved or profited directly should be banned from the game, and make it known.
Any corporation or alliance that profited (from direct involvement) from this should be dealt with, how, thatÆs again is up to CCP to show the community that it takes it seriously, and make it known.
Reinstated the ôwhistle blowerö and compensate him for his lost game play.
Give a full and clear statement of all involvement, actions taken, and measures being taken to ensure that it doesnÆt happen again.
My personally view is that CCP needs to show a strong hand in dealing with this. Failure to do so, will lead to a lot of the player base mis-trusting CCPÆs involvement with the game development and with the game play itself.
Fly Safe Everyone
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Vhedrish Nell
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:56:00 -
[629]
Please don't leave the fox in the henhouse. Anyone with access to code can cheat in ways far more insidious than simply using a dev tool to create some BPOs... Ways which even the most diligent IAD will not catch because there will be no logs. Anything from "Oopsie. That's a bug." to code tailored to allow those in-the-know an unfair advantage. Any code an unethical developer works on must be suspect.
Developers cheating is unfortunately all too common... if you're talking MUDs and the like. But anyone willing to be paid a salary, and then turn around and cheat both their employers and their paying customers, falls into the category of a "rare breed." Zero tolerance; terminate t20. Failure to do so would simply demonstrate t20 is not the only one at CCP who can demonstrate extremely poor judgement.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:57:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Register on his site. It'll be there :) I can't link it since it's against the forum rules (*sigh*)
Why do you think you ahev to REGISTER to get this info from this HACKER?
Engage brains please...
Seeing as how I'm the one that hosts his site, my brain has been engaged all the way, thank you very much.
Not all of it is public, and one has to register in order to view the more interesting things.
If you're scared we'll steelz your eye peez, don't worry. Every web server does. Every forum does. Your eye peez are already public knowledge.
If you're afraid your e-mail account will get hacked, might I suggest you create a free e-mail account somewhere. And by all means, put a unique password on it. Not the same password you use for all your accounts.
It's actually quite safe. ...Free Kugutsumen... |
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:57:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Genius let's hire a convicted hacker to hack our customer bases forums!!!!!!!!!!!
I would be satisfied if CCP demonstrated a commitment to transparency.
However, the only reason we are here today is because the "convicted hacker" revealed the snake in the grass and because we threadnaughted it.
I love EVE. If it takes a "convicted hacker" to restore the integrity of the game, then that says more about CCP than it says about the "hacker," don't you think?
Oh hey, what about that GM that was scouting our POS in 28Y last night?
No, it says more about the people who condone people breaking the law to win at a game. Go you!
Well I have spotted one BoB alt so far....
This is fun.. like a game of "Where is Waldo?"
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Schalak
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:58:00 -
[632]
More than any other point in all of this I am appalled that the person who exposed this was banned for it. He should have been rewarded.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:58:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do. Eve would be a better place and more mature people would be more likely to start playing Eve. As it is right now, many people shy away from playing Eve due to this kind of crud. Unfortunately those threatening to quit have been playing the same tune over and over trying to get what they want with no intentions of ever quiting the game. It isn't a threat unless you are actually willing to go through with it.
My buddy is deactivating as we speak. When I get home from work I will be doing the same. Hot air? I think not. I love the game, but I can't trust CCP. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.09 23:59:00 -
[634]
Edited by: Rhaegar Targarin on 09/02/2007 23:56:01 This thread is bugged. You can only jump to page 19 out of 22 (In two hours 22 pages and 50,0000 views). Start a new one so people can continue to tell CCP how disgusted we are with them and their lack of action in this matter. Fire T20. Penalize RKK for knowingly cheating. Change CCP protocal so this NEVER happens again.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:00:00 -
[635]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) |
CyberChick
The Ghost Riders Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:01:00 -
[636]
Calls for firing will only hurt the game further - where does it stop asking for all the developers that have tranq accounts to be fired only to have No improvement in the game.
T20 made a mistake, he admitted it and will probably be punished internally by ccp move along people and leave your pitchforks and torches at the gate.
All your doing is continuing to add further damage to the game, the more post like these that are put up the more online game magazines will post about it, and the reputation of the game will drop to a declining number of new subscribers.
That said, the whistle blower should have his accounts reinstated.
Additionally the claims against certain bob members/corps should be investigated further - I don't hate bob or what to see them destroyed but if Kugutsumen claims have so far been somewhat correct maybe others are too...
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Berious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:01:00 -
[637]
Well CCP thanks for finally starting to be honest with us - after getting on for a year no less - even if it had to be dragged out of you kicking and screaming like usual. After this "We're very sorry but trust us there're better measures in place now" really doesn't cut it, especially considering you knew there was developer cheating but took no action until the community discovered and forced the issue.
Now the genie is out of the bottle nothing less than root and branch reform will do. I really think you need to change the way CCP staff play the game, no staff in 0.0 alliance leadership positions, regular rotation of corps, an end to volunteers having the power to give away multi-billion isk rewards and so forth. You must not only be fair, but be seen to be fair.
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Sally Va
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:01:00 -
[638]
Deduct from BoB accounts all the money that was made through sales from said bpo's and we'll call it even.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:02:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Baudolino I have no problem with devs playing the game and fully appreciate their need to experience the game. However.. there is absolutely no need to hide the fact that a character belongs to a dev. A dev should not have clandestine presence in the game- it simply invites both suspicion of and actual misconduct. A dev character should be market as such for accountability purposes- as for what dev the character belongs to, there is no reason for players to have this information. This is an important principle and it surprises me that CCP does not attend to it with more foresight and finesse.
Exactly what I was trying to say and didn't know how to put it. All "regular" characters that have ANY ties with CCP (and free "employee/associate" accounts), while they do own those free CCP accounts, should have all their own regular characters flagged as "CCP related". That includes devs, forum mods, aurora/star... basically every person that signed any NDA or other kinds of confidentiality agreement with CCP.
Also, the ONLY place where ANY type of game-modifying tools can be used on the TQ cluster should be at the main CCP office, and ALL such interactions should be logged and logs made non-deletable. More important, ANY direct interaction between a game modifying tool and a "CCP related"-flagged account and its immediate surroundings should only be possible with the confirmation of at least 2 other devs of similar ranking. Furthermore, any change of any kind involving manual content creation on TQ should be approved by a second dev.
Those are just general examples of guidelines, not the way it should be. But it does give a general idea.
An EVE that has non-playing devs or devs that just play a certain style (carebear?) will crumble soon. We do need them to be in alliances, and even more important, in the larger ones. But they do not and should not be secretive about the fact they are indeed related to CCP.
Having devs abandon their long-played character just because they're outed makes no sense. _ MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Vasili Z
Beasts of Burden YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:03:00 -
[640]
All these people are just made that they've been pwned by BoB before, trying to hang a whole alliance over something as crummy as a few missiles and a sabre, you guys need to shut up and stop acting like you actually care.
If you're literally mad over a sabre bpo and some missiles, you need to go to anger management. BoB owns space because they pwn, not because they have too many sabre's. -- Whatever I said I said while drunk and doesn't reflect my alliance or corporation's views. |
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:03:00 -
[641]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 10/02/2007 00:02:11
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Genius let's hire a convicted hacker to hack our customer bases forums!!!!!!!!!!!
I would be satisfied if CCP demonstrated a commitment to transparency.
However, the only reason we are here today is because the "convicted hacker" revealed the snake in the grass and because we threadnaughted it.
I love EVE. If it takes a "convicted hacker" to restore the integrity of the game, then that says more about CCP than it says about the "hacker," don't you think?
Oh hey, what about that GM that was scouting our POS in 28Y last night?
No, it says more about the people who condone people breaking the law to win at a game. Go you!
You know, you're right.
I'm sure you're in Empire mining Veld waiting to get 20m skill points so maybe, just maybe BoB will give your application a second glance before they delete it.
One day, you'll finally get into BoB and start to take advantage of the House that T20 Built.
All the while we'll be stabbing LV and BoB in the face. I've always played this game like I've had the deck stacked against me.
It's kind of nice to get confirmation that when I thought the deck was stacked, I was right.
Go you!
-dbp
P.S. STILL NO RESPONSE AS TO WHY A GM WAS SCOUTING OUR POS IN 28Y.
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thirdeye47
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:04:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Im actually feeling a bit sorry for T20.
Feeling sorry for a persons own ignorance is a very poor show
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:04:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
I think all of this needs to be spoken to. You want to be forgiven? You want our trust back? It starts with the above.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:04:00 -
[644]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 10/02/2007 00:01:50
Originally by: CyberChick Calls for firing will only hurt the game further - where does it stop asking for all the developers that have tranq accounts to be fired only to have No improvement in the game.
T20 made a mistake, he admitted it and will probably be punished internally by ccp move along people and leave your pitchforks and torches at the gate.
All your doing is continuing to add further damage to the game, the more post like these that are put up the more online game magazines will post about it, and the reputation of the game will drop to a declining number of new subscribers.
That said, the whistle blower should have his accounts reinstated.
Additionally the claims against certain bob members/corps should be investigated further - I don't hate bob or what to see them destroyed but if Kugutsumen claims have so far been somewhat correct maybe others are too...
This is the point unfortuantely...
If the truth continues to be covered up then the playerbase deserves to decline. While Kug is still banned and Sir molle, dimension Z, blacklight and many others still have their accounts active this issue should not rest.
Unless actions are taken to rectify instead of cover up then this game deserves to smell of the stench it has created.
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Patricia Highsmith
Mercenary Apprentices
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:05:00 -
[645]
Well, in fact for me it looks like CCP concedes a minor offence (that BPO thing) to hide the really big stuff: 1.) Getting ingame problems solved by DEVs while other people have to wait for GM response for ages, often with "sorry, can't help you" (it is funny, that BoB stations are suddenly moved to their holding corp, while other alliances get a "no, that isn't possible" from the GM). 2.) Anyone remember the first really big battle in EVE in EC-P8R months ago? Well, BoB got a complete node for that while other alliances later in similar situations got a "sorry, that isn't possible" and died in lagfests. 3.) Unfair information advantages over other players
CCP is doing a good obfuscation here. I really hope, the community will not acquiesce that.
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seeyouauntie
Caldari Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:05:00 -
[646]
So, BOB has used unfair advanages, and broken the EULA to fight their way to the top. They are undeserving of the position they are in.
No matter what anyone says, an advantage is an advantage. It doesn't matter if "they weren't good BPOs".
Eve has become fundamentally flawed. The chain of extra isk, inside info, and whatever else this has gained BOB will carry on as long as Eve exists.
Something serious has to be done about the blatant cheating. An apology is not good enough. ---------------------------------- EVE-Online Forums:
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Tainos
Amarria Auxilia Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:06:00 -
[647]
So you expect us to believe he risked his REAL LIFE JOB for some t2 ammo bpo's and a dictor?
Why don't you tell us the whole story, then maybe you can BEGIN to address some of our 'concerns'.
BTW, I canceled my sub, at least until I feel like CCP isn't BSing us.
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Vasili Z
Beasts of Burden YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:06:00 -
[648]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected]) -- Whatever I said I said while drunk and doesn't reflect my alliance or corporation's views. |
Babsy
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:07:00 -
[649]
So, you can i guess, click on the GOD MODE button and start killing everyone because you have 30 more battleships? EH?
I have been around since alpha, always had a suspision on balance.
So is there possiblities now, that during the begining game, how can I forget that perhaps the balance of the game was swayed because of GOD MODE? eh? uh....
Usually people join a game server, any game that is, soon as they detect cheaters.. what do they do?
They Leave of course. So what is next after that, well, I am trying to understand this complicated matter.. ie... dev/gm (i am not accuing anyone) sells ISK to a player, knowing that's a breach of EULA.. so then the seller, gets upset and bans the person he been selling isk to? Isn't that infringment or entrapment.
Very very dissapointed, I hope I can keep pushing the sub button, at least now, I am going down to a single account, why run two.. for what achievment...?
just my point of view, not a flame, not a accusation, just a few words, because most are not bringing up the old days... and what happened then, were there gm's involved then also? hmfp.. who will ever know.
I sudgest doing the same players get done to them, complete remove the access of the people responsible to their accounts, clean them out, make them start at Zero, and without God Mode this time.
doubleposted, sorry posted in wrong place first, my appologizes
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Bosie
Tenacious Warriors Acquiring Technology
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:07:00 -
[650]
This feels like the old "Forum ***** looses to a scam and gets all his ISK back".
This really does stink.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston |
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Qual
HACKER! Ok?
Hacked player accounts! Bad! Banned!
Anyone who registered at his site should be changing passwords on EVERYTHING the access if they where stupid enough to reuse a pw there.
Dont make a hero out of him. He is NOT by any means a hero.
I thought BoB liked out of game spies? no?
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Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[652]
Edited by: Plim on 10/02/2007 00:13:10 Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Ok, i'll elaborate.
Originally by: Vasili Z All these people are just made that they've been pwned by BoB before, trying to hang a whole alliance over something as crummy as a few missiles and a sabre, you guys need to shut up and stop acting like you actually care.
If you're literally mad over a sabre bpo and some missiles, you need to go to anger management. BoB owns space because they pwn, not because they have too many sabre's.
If you had read the background to this, you would know that it is not simply people get irrate about this specific issue. It is also the fact that members of RKK knew that this guy was a dev and quite possibly had access to information and other things that they shouldn't have.
People have the right to get angry about this. People are paying for this game and it dosen't say anything about cheating devs on the box. -----------------
Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[653]
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth
So what would satisfy the bloodlust of the mob? Multiple devs getting fired? Sack the whole team? Seriously, they investigated, they actually found wrong-doing. They reported that wrong-doing. They did so when and how they said they would. What do people want?
The fact of the matter is that for some of us it is too late for CCP to do anything about it. Where does the corruption stop? How deep do you have to dig in CCP before you find someone who is completely true to the community? You will never know, because you don't know these people. For all you know it could be a huge scam.
It is a business. If a business I trade with bends me over I don't trade with them anymore. That's what CCP did, so they don't get my money anymore.
I will see if their reputation continues to go downhill. More of this **** happens and I'm never coming back. They have to prove themselves to me and other paying customers. Maybe I drive a hard bargain, but I don't like people ****in' with my money. ~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I'm Rock. Make Eve good for rock. Give me scissor arms! |
Photon Lightwielder
Amarr Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[654]
-Do I think t20 should be fired? Yes, I can't think of a worse sin in a game such as this. He should be removed, if nothing else it will hopefully discourage future thoughts of doing something like this, and/or maybe discontinue other devs who are doing the same right now.
-Do I think CCP has disclosed everything on this matter? No, I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. I believe much of what Sephiraa posted might hold water, and the issue about the polaris frig running around moons is very nasty indeed. The allegation about the Sabre BPO was proved right, there is a large chanse in my eyes of other allegations being right aswell.. CCP is knowingly or unkowingly holding back the brunt of the scandal in this case.
-When will this end? I believe, if CCP doesn't come totally clear on what has happened regarding devs interfarance in this game, and unban certain players the community will never forgive and forget.
All in all the community who lives on this forum might be a small percentage of the total player base, but I do believe that this small percentage is what makes the game what it is. If this small percentage were to leave, maybe some of the other players who do not care about politics, who do not care about grand schemes in eve will step up, maybe not. Maybe we would've seen a totally changed if if the playerbase who make eve what it is right now quit over this case not being put fully out to the light.
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
It was dealt with--incorrectly, mind you--as soon as the infraction was discovered. The only difference between then and now is that its public revelation was accompanied with painful letters of apology from CCP employees, and revealing the measures they took months ago to rectify it.
This has been restated several times now.
We must be reading different fora. The one I've read says that the infraction was not dealt with "as soon as it was discovered", but rather was discovered, and swept under the rug until exposed by a third party, and there no "measures" taken "months ago" to rectify anything--in fact CCP apparently did absolutely nothing after discovering the cheating scumbag T20--did not remove the BPOs and did not even ban his account from the game. Absolutely amazing!
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Akoudoulos
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:08:00 -
[656]
All this coming out is good,
Should CCP fire T20? imo no, greed is something of human nature and must be given a second chance, well put him on the corner with on leg up for some time, and take all his ingame chars away, give him new ones but this time keep a very good eye on him
Is T20 the blood we the mob of eve where looking for? Of course not, what we care is eve, there will be good and bad
What CCP must do from now on? Get you ** together and continue to work on that wonderfull game, but improve your handling
The community of eve is impossible to be heared, and theoreticly impossible to help by any means, dev alts should be kept secret but secret means that we know nothing about them, we cannot check or have logs about their doings, YOU CCP must keep the game clean
Another good question, was T20 good at his work? his productivity was what CCP expected? if yes, then i suggest keep that guy on board.
CCP the blood of one is not going to solve the problem, and there is a very big one, Gms/ bug hunter/devs (not all ofcourse) abuse their powers to get an unfair advantage,
One day i wondered why the hell X guy is so desperate to buy an expanded cargo I bpo? 5 days later they turned tech2 And this is just a recent incident, i can talk all day for stuff that do make sense for one day and the next they do!
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Cphil
Full Metal Mining Co. EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:09:00 -
[657]
What elce is there to say... someone F***ed up. i bleave that anyone that hade any sort of involvement with this sould be perma baned. but again it's not my call....
Reguards, Cphil Vice CEO Full Metal Mining Co. EntroPraetorian Aegis
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:09:00 -
[658]
THE BIG QUESTION WHERE DO CCP GO FROM HERE
1. All cheaters like t20 need to be banned as stated in ther own policies.BANNED 2. Other people like sir molle who knowly knew about bpos etc BANNED 3. Investigate other dev misconducts ie Why is one scouting poses before a bob war dec INVESTAGATE 4.A third party should conduct their own internal investigation. INVESTIGATE 5.All ill gotten gains from bpo be given back DONE NOW 6.ccp publically state they have a problem with devs cheating but will do all they can to resolve the issue no matter where it leads. DONE NOW
CCP you need to act quick to stop this cancer which your dev cheaters have caused before it ruins this great game.
HARD DECISIONs NEED TO BE MADE TO STOP THE ROT
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Purvy
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:11:00 -
[659]
this shows very poorly on CCP's part IMHO, sometimes people make poor decisions, but the way this was handled is a farce. There has been no true punishment, and my bets are that the guy already has another char in RKK in which he pays with timecodes and will continue to try and cheat the system.
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ashher
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:12:00 -
[660]
Make a GM Jovian so it is obvious who they are so there is no mistaking who they are
They can be in game alliance, in large corps but it would be so obvious that excepting any gifts from them would be asking for trouble. They can still play, bug hunt etc but not do anything underhand so easily.
I feel sorry for all of the BOB pawns whos once great alliance image now has been tainted for ever, no matter what you achieve or have achieved will now never be looked at in the same way and the stink of cheating will always be with you because of a few of your directors - those directors should be banned for it is obvious they knew what was going on and were happy to accept it.
BOB membership will be declining as people with integrity will leave BOB as they feel this puts their own integrity in question.
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ph33rf4ct0ry
Minmatar Hookers From Mars
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:13:00 -
[661]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY |
Voltron
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:13:00 -
[662]
Edited by: Voltron on 10/02/2007 00:11:31 Aggro has a good point.
Hire an outside 3rd party investigating company, then you've got my intention, as well as everyone elses. You'll have one hell of a better chance at rebuilding your credibility that way, and it would provide the community far more transparency on the issue than you're currently offering.
Everything else is a joke.
Volt
It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:14:00 -
[663]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 10/02/2007 00:11:34
Originally by: aggro THE BIG QUESTION WHERE DO CCP GO FROM HERE
1. All cheaters like t20 need to be banned as stated in ther own policies.BANNED 2. Other people like sir molle who knowly knew about bpos etc BANNED 3. Investigate other dev misconducts ie Why is one scouting poses before a bob war dec INVESTAGATE 4.A third party should conduct their own internal investigation. INVESTIGATE 5.All ill gotten gains from bpo be given back DONE NOW 6.ccp publically state they have a problem with devs cheating but will do all they can to resolve the issue no matter where it leads. DONE NOW
CCP you need to act quick to stop this cancer which your dev cheaters have caused before it ruins this great game.
HARD DECISIONs NEED TO BE MADE TO STOP THE ROT
Aggro for president!!!!
Oh btw the third party thing I think won't work?
We are a bunch of geeks getting mad that our favorite game is a sham. Where are you gonna find anyone to investigate a game that would really give a crap and has no agenda?
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:14:00 -
[664]
*snip* Don't flame -Eldo
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Ab Tallen
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:14:00 -
[665]
Unfortunately, all in all this looks like the typical company that has grown too fast for it's organizational structure, and has outgrown it's internal controls.
Setting up an internal affairs division is an obvious first step to get the company itself and it's employees (and the numerous volunteer helpers with extended access) back on track, but it won't solve the rampaging misconduct in the player world.
Problems with "policing" the game have been known for quite a while - even if you're just looking at macroers and ISK / item sellers. The obvious overall low level of controls - interspersed with seemingly random punishment - is an open invitation for further abuse.
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Ohmite
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:15:00 -
[666]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: aggro THE BIG QUESTION WHERE DO CCP GO FROM HERE
1. All cheaters like t20 need to be banned as stated in ther own policies.BANNED 2. Other people like sir molle who knowly knew about bpos etc BANNED 3. Investigate other dev misconducts ie Why is one scouting poses before a bob war dec INVESTAGATE 4.A third party should conduct their own internal investigation. INVESTIGATE 5.All ill gotten gains from bpo be given back DONE NOW 6.ccp publically state they have a problem with devs cheating but will do all they can to resolve the issue no matter where it leads. DONE NOW
CCP you need to act quick to stop this cancer which your dev cheaters have caused before it ruins this great game.
HARD DECISIONs NEED TO BE MADE TO STOP THE ROT
Aggro for president!!!!
Aggro for CEO of CCP
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Dray
Caldari Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:15:00 -
[667]
To all you people saying t20 shouldnt be sacked, wtf, if I did similar in my job I'd suspended and if the investigation proved my wrong doing I'd be out the door, losing everything, pensions, perks etc, even if I had circumstances that meant losing my home, or personal problems.
Its not my employers fault I made a c*nt of myself, its mine and mine only, that he works for a company that is responsible for an MMORPG is not the issue, and as Rho said hes only sorry he got caught, any regret would of resulted in his admiting wrong doing before it was forced on him.
Forget about it being a game and look at him as an employee who broke the rules, the punishment must fit the crime, the who, the when, the why, and the what are only peripheral, whats is important is that what he did is reflected in how hes treated.
But at the end of the day the damage is done, like everyone else with genuine concerns im contemplating my eve future and whether I chose to have one.
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Masochistic Cannibal
Amarr The Ring of Fire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:16:00 -
[668]
Can people please calm the **** down, were playing a pew pew spaceship game !
T20, I for one am not convinced that these are the full facts. More to the point I still wish to know why within BoB,
# Exploiting was ignored # Account sharing was ignored
With that being said it takes guts to make a public apology in front of 1000's of gamers who idolize this game... and will now probably hate you for eternity !!
Though on that note I hope your job is still intact and not in any jeprody, We all do bloody stupid things, And a person would have to be nieve to say they would never do what you did. Most of us shouldn't be posting on these forums from work ! In fact it could lose me my job, but we find ourselves doing it....
Yeah not the best comparison but meh Glad some of the truth is out in the open ! Though I will still be petitioning the account sharing !
Typherin Laidai(RIP)/ Cannibal / Alliaanna (RIP)
I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame] |
Henry Jennings
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:16:00 -
[669]
Seems to me that there should be no question about it; the guy should be dismissed from his position.
He has a position of trust in a company; he abused that trust; he committed tantamount to virtual embezzlement, and should be fired.
That's all there is to it.
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Sir JoJo
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:17:00 -
[670]
Edited by: Sir JoJo on 10/02/2007 00:13:29 Ok i know this is probaly gonna be nice Bait for all the BOB haters out there but i will try my best.
First of al i havent been ingame since i saw this Post and my first reaction was OMG ******* hell, does T20 actually know that he might just have ruined the game for an entire alliance and made the rest of the community even more suspicius towards said allaince.. this will hang over BOB for the rest of its excistens
I am in shock that there was truth in this thing whit BPO spawning I am in Shock that CCP have devs that does this and i fully agree on the part of him beeing FIRED he should right away..
i love this game and iwe always been "OMG ppl are calling us haxors cheater all the time FFS come one get a grib"
Now i cant say that. i firmly belived that none in BOB did cheat so did i when i was in 5 and was accused of the same, and so will i belive now that T20 is gone
i would Like CCP to come out and clear the Rest of BOB and come out and let ppl know where the DEVS have chars so ppl can see its not only in BOB i know that might mean all DEVS have to delete there chars but was it my Company i would do that in a blink. becasue ATM 2k players are all looked at as cheaters and tbh its CCP who should fix that.
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Ademaro Imre
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:17:00 -
[671]
Its this sort of crap that will utterly destroy the US/Canada player base. The US/Canadians are not really MMORPG fans - they are FPS/racing/Xbox360/PS3 fans - they buy the game they want, and subscribe to an online service for half the cost of Eve, and get a seamless intergrated voice communications, and in Xbox360 at least - built in video conferencing. And MMORPG fans will be satisfied with all the new MMORPG's comign to Xbox360 and PS3 - and in the case ox Xbox360 - they will play on the same servers as PC users will.
Lag is bad enough, and now the game is rigged, and CCP knows its been rigged by dirty Devs.
How many petitions are answered by Devs' or GM's in illicit ways?
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:17:00 -
[672]
Originally by: ashher Make a GM Jovian so it is obvious who they are so there is no mistaking who they are
I have a better idea.
I want to be able to trust CCP again.
I want a complete list of characters that are associated with accounts operated by CCP developers or GMs.
It's obvious that CCP can't police themselves. They would be doing the subscribers a disservice by giving us anything less.
-dbp
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hUssmann
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:17:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Bosie This feels like the old "Forum ***** looses to a scam and gets all his ISK back".
This really does stink.
It stinks to high heaven, the community have been decieved, I really can't see how the trust with ever return.
After reading what's gone on CCP are going to have their work cut out to sort out the mess and regain the trust of the customers, this is including myself.
It's bad, you've ****** up, now sort it out before the game suffers beyond repair. It's time to act instead of faffing around. ______________________________________
Phoenix Lonestar > Server lag was non-existant pre Dragon.
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Virida
Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:18:00 -
[674]
This is just tragic, and i feel sorry for t20, and even if he IS a dev, he made a wrong thing, who ended up casting a shadow on his corp buddies
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:18:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Shin Ra Interesting stuff.
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:18:00 -
[676]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
<br> ...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:18:00 -
[677]
hey hey
This truly was a sad day in the universe we live in.
** a respected Dev cheated and got away with it. ** a well flown alliance and all round bad boys reputation is forever tarnished ** CCP reputation obliterated ** players justly hurt and now loose heart.
1) Is there anyway to prove his alts got deleted cause all 6 of them including the ones in RKK are still showing on TQ ? 2) what measures are now in place to prevent a third dev haxploit ? 3) will t20 loose his job or are CCP like the previous Dev did ? 4) will Dev's game play be limited to non alliance/corporation interaction ?
a shamefull time to be a capsuleer
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The Lawyer
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:19:00 -
[678]
Sadly, the list of wrongful actions does not stop here, in just the few last days we seen as a example account hacking happen again where certain alliance personnel can be or are directly involved, this is then just one known event of valid known actions this week, if the community wonder where that one came from, just look at this weeks in game news. Personally, beside the events above that I have ample reason for believing all to the above to be true now. I have either personally witnessed actions as these actions first hand: DDoS attacks on our TS servers, DDoS attack on FC’s computer bringing the FC down. POS shooting thru POS shields, unbalanced or failure to getting correctly reimbursed, having my own corp actively support in killing a number of number of hostile capital ships while BoB gets capital ship back. Events like this will not stop by the described internal investigations team alone. These are just my own observations and I have reports from similar or worse events from close friends over the last four years. All of these issues are not good for morale and trust in CCP. This case is indeed the top of a larger ICE mountain, you are unfortunately not even close to openly admitting to 10% of it that we can see being investigated. I have only one solution to this matter, its described in point a) its either this or occur more rage, more spies, more investigations, more blackmailing, more DDoS attacks. Ultimately CCP it will hurt your financial bottom line and ultimately this can develop as far as it will cost you your own jobs.
Think about this, these people are all human, you cant stop humans from acting like we do supporting our own cause is what any human ultimately will do in any situation. No police can stop crime from happening 100%. Think about it Hellmar, I believe you have no other choice than to do this; you are a company funded by the interest of your player base, and we pay for your own pay check. I know it’s a deeply emotional Issue within CCP. Lots of guys in CCP live to play their own game, I think you in the long term have to choose, its either play the game or get a pay check. Alternatively you are in the long run risking the whole of CCP and your own job. I believe not doing this would be making a grave mistake as a CEO of CCP.
Unfortunately I strongly believe CCP are just starting to see the top of the mountain of ICE here. With that said I think its time to act and act decisively from you Hellmar, your own job is on the line, please realise the future events and ramifications of this sooner rather than later.
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Bootleg Greg
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:20:00 -
[679]
been playing this game for a long time.. very long , all i gotz to say is... WTFHAX
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Byr Gena
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:20:00 -
[680]
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Wow.
CCP - We need to know the answers to the following questions because your answers thus far have been inadequate:
1. How many CCP employees play EvE?
2. How many are in 0.0 allinaces?
3. What is the distribution of main accounts among CCP employees? (In other words are their 20 devs in BoB and 1 alt in LV?)
4. How will you assure us that something like this NEVER happens again?
5. What about the numerous other allegations (including account sharing and other EULA violations)?
100% agreement
CCP wake up! - ppl ARE bad and as long as you have devs and gm in alliances/game - there WILL be cheating.
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Laura Baretta
Minmatar Caelestis Caedes
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:23:00 -
[681]
Generalisation is bad, mmkay? There are of course people who will never believe CCP again, no matter what they say or do. Some people are looking for conspiracies wherever they can.
CCP is a professional company, maybe they handled Dev and GM accounts to easy in the past, but I am sure they will be learning from these mistakes and make sure they won'T happen again.
As for T20, that's not for us to decide. We don't know how CCP handles these things internally, but for them it's probably not as cold of a decision as some posts here suggested. There is a human component involved, and I can imagine T20 will probably be shocked himself by the turn the events took.
No doubt it was wrong what he did, but he is young, and we all made stupid **** in our lives. Maybe he deserves a second chance. I don't know, we will see.
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Bear Care
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:24:00 -
[682]
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
I think all of this needs to be spoken to. You want to be forgiven? You want our trust back? It starts with the above.
these things have to be looked at. If all the community gets is a "im sorry" and the removal of these ill gotten BPO's then that is far from fair. Im playing on a trial acc and was thinking of activating but after reading this Im seriously doubting if no further actions are taken. The playing field is un-even the game is allready messed up by 1 party that cheated there way to the top and are now basicly invincable.
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Mentonak
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:24:00 -
[683]
Thanks to CCP for being honest with us.
Unfortunately it isnÆt simple to sack a long-standing dev. APIs, code comments and other tech documentation will never be an alternative for active working knowledge, nothing is.
That said CCP makes money by supplying a game. Few people will enjoy playing a game with others who cheat. Furthermore this particular game relies on its community to make it what it is.
I am left simply with the request that CCP remains open and honest with its community, and that they give further practical assurances (actions not words) that this incident will be the last of its kind.
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Matori Kar
Caldari SlightlyAnnoyingGitCorp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:25:00 -
[684]
You seemed to have delt with one issue that did not actually seem that important or likely to be true (though it turned out to be) and you have chosen to totally ignore the many other possible issues that have come to light. Why?
- Sharing accounts. - Ebaying accounts. - Supporting Isk farmers. - GMs helping corps/alliances. - ISD helping corps/alliances. - ISD using 'out of game' information to help corps/alliances. - The appearance of extreme bias towards Band of Brothers - anti BoB threads locked, pro BoB thread not. Threads locked to be replaced by BoB started threads on the same subject. Mass deletions of posts critical of BoB but BoB allowed to be critical of others. - Banning users/accounts, suspending users/accounts except when a member of BoB is being naughty. - Banning players that expose cheating Devs/GMs/Players/ISD etc.
Caldari: Don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked,ship speed, the direction you are moving... etc. Easy Mode w00t!! |
Yumi Katanawe
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:25:00 -
[685]
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
There's more to it and we, the players, feel it. We deserve a full disclosure.
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Marachus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:26:00 -
[686]
So are those that are responsible for exposing this going to be unbanned? Will there bean any sort of appropriate punishment? How about a pay cut. Seems appropriate. You may not want to lose a dev, but you can't let someone get off scot free for violating the EULA, betraying player trust, and causing an extra huge dose of community discontent as a result.
I find it particularly reprehensible that CCP denied, hid, and banned exposers to this problem, only to come clean after all this time almost like it was no big deal.
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Ziu
Wraith Recondite
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:28:00 -
[687]
Edited by: Ziu on 10/02/2007 00:25:07 The saddest day in Eve, bar none, and not just because a dev cheated.
I can only hope that CCP's response so far is only the beginning, with more to come as they have more time to digest it all.
Suddenly I'm not so proud to play this game. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:28:00 -
[688]
Originally by: Speedy McWhizz
Originally by: insolace CCP needs to do the following:
1) fire T20 to show they have a ZERO tolerance policy
2) unban "k" and all of his accounts
3) Fine BOB for the profits made from their BPOs, again demonstrating a ZERO tolerance policy
4) Remove all CCP staff's right to anonymity in the game.
5) Auto-invalidate the thousands of wardecs from people who would simply want to grief a Dev's char. Or more importantly, their corp.
Imagine if you were in some 50 man corp, logged in, and found a hundred wardecs from people who don't like Tuxford's latest change, and want his char DEAD.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:29:00 -
[689]
And for everyone wanting to give this event a pass, you have no idea how much damage can be caused by a little impropriety by CCP devs or GMs.
For example, did you know that we were supposed to have an entirely new pirate race now?
New ships, new gear, new faction items, new officers.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a new pirate faction with a compelling backstory in the new regions rather than those lame rogue drones that exist only to make you money off drone shards?
Wanna know why we don't have the new content?
A member of the event team (who shall remain nameless) leaked details of the new pirate faction to other members of a certain in-game alliance (which shall also remain nameless).
The new pirate faction was scrapped, wasting months of work on the part of the event team.
I will stab all you apologists in the face with truth.
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:30:00 -
[690]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 10/02/2007 00:27:14
Originally by: Sir JoJo i would Like CCP to come out and clear the Rest of BOB and come out and let ppl know where the DEVS have chars so ppl can see its not only in BOB i know that might mean all DEVS have to delete there chars but was it my Company i would do that in a blink. becasue ATM 2k players are all looked at as cheaters and tbh its CCP who should fix that.
I do believe that the vast majority of BoB players were completely in the dark about all of this. However, the fact remains that BoB as an alliance did improperly benefit from t20 being a part of it. It also seems that the high up leadership was well aware of this fact. Because of this, BoB will be labelled as cheaters and their accomplishments over the last couple of years will always carry with it a nice little asterisks regardless of what is said by CCP. The majority of BoB may not have been directly cheating, but they clearly did benefit from the cheating that occured.
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BorisThe Blade
Amarr Dicken's Cider
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:30:00 -
[691]
I think CCP did about what they could. They removed T20 from RKK when they found about about his transgressions. New information came forward and was proved valid so further steps were taken, the BPOs ****ty as they might have been where removed and a new zero tolerance policy has been instituted.
I read all the posts in K'site and it's obvious that RKK's leadership was just as surprised as anyone when they found out that he was leaving his BPOs. Further more no other BoB was even mentioned in those blogs which shows that some people here like in K's forums are just instigating a whitch hunt.
Do I wish CCP was more forthcoming, sure but do i want EVE to turn into a tabloid no.
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Supersonicman
Gallente Fippel And Trixx
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:30:00 -
[692]
I don't think he should be fired cause of one simple reason, he's not the only one doing this. I don't trust any of the devs anymore and sure as hell wouldn't want to war BoB or any alliance with devs in their ranks.
I only see one solution to the problem.. CCP employees cannot play on the official server. First of all they know stuff that no player should know, they know when something is gonna get nerfed or buffed and therefore can stock up or sell all those items. If a new skill is beeing added they know exactly what the requirements will be. Worst of all.. they will get friends in their alliances giving them hints of what may come or maybe going a step further like t20 did. I could go on forever.
And as an answer to all those guys saying "but the game wouldn't be as good if the devs didn't play it", the devs can play on the testserver.. it's not like the politics is in need of moderation is it? that part of the game doesn't need "balancing" or fixing so i see no point in devs participating in it.
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Pakalolo
Tha Shiznit
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:31:00 -
[693]
once you know you can never go back
<sigh>
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:31:00 -
[694]
Its pretty obvious CCP purposefully put these DEV blogs up at the end of the day on friday and just left the building. They are probally hoping that this will blow over by monday (sadly mistaken I hope).
There is an un-mentioned victim in all this.... the moderation team. Can you imagine having their job right now? Dev team just dropped a bomb in their lap and sad "Hey have a good weekend working like a dog while we are relaxing."
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:31:00 -
[695]
speechless?
Waiting for CCP reply?
Whatever, I won't bother. I'll go read Kugutsman's blog. --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
Joeyboy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:32:00 -
[696]
I don't think CCP's actions go far enough. It's clear that others have violated the rules of the game. They should be punished as well.
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Maj Woodcock
Minmatar United Space Aillance USA
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:33:00 -
[697]
Edited by: Maj Woodcock on 10/02/2007 00:31:02 Looks like a white wash of the problems to me.
Really think you guys need to get a REAL humans resort (HR) department and learn some ethics.
You guys want to play in the big leagues, get with the program and stop being HICKS!!!
PS TomB, you won the life retirement lottery, you just donÆt know it!!
...Free Kugutsumen...
T20, hope you keep your job, BUT hope all the ISK you and your Crop made is removed!!!!!!!
PROMISES MADE > PROMISES KEPT |
kaahooters
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:33:00 -
[698]
there have been many posts regarding ebay an the selling of isk, chars and items. ebay has recently clamped down on this and to say this is still contuining is wrong and has nothing to do with this thred. this thred is to do with the deplorable actions of ccp, as a whole, not as indivudials.
your all accountable and resposible for this issue
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Franga
Caldari NQX Logistics
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:35:00 -
[699]
My own personal opinion on this ... which, by the way, is justified by my extrememly high IQ (4153, for those who want to know):
If CCP don't fire t20 there will be major ramifications for the credibility of the company throughout not only the MMO world but the gaming world in general. I know it's a game, but the thing is you have 300,000+ paying subscribers. That's alot of capital at stake. It would appear several have cancelled their subscription already because of moral indignation. Whether it's true or not that they actually have ...
The fact of the matter is that an employee used his significant influence and position of power within the company to extract advantages that otherwise may not have been available to him. I know that in most of the corporate world that is referred to as 'fraud' and/or 'insider trading'. Both offenses are usually dealt with by termination of employment of the individuals at hand. Or - busting them so low that they really don't have any alternative but resignation.
As you can see by the major interest in this thread and the general sentiment towards t20 (he's probably never done a thing wrong outside of this - but he did do this) - you may want to do more then just make an apology and a 'Trust Us' statement. As a friend of mine said, 'It doesn't matter if it was a Titan BPO or a t1 ammo BPO', it's cheating.
I also remember reading in a devblog that you guys are here to serve us as a community. The community, it would appear, have made their feelings known. And IMMHO, they are correct. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now. |
WilliamH Bonney
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:35:00 -
[700]
Would like to just say, t20 did not say how many of each BPO were made/distributed wrongly. They just said the type. It could be more "cover-up" if indeed there were multiples of one or the other... Now, if the post said "one of each of these types" then yes, I would say that was it...
On a personal note, this bodes me quite ill... I mean, seeing how hard CCP attempted to cover-up the allegations before they did any kind of investigation, just leads me to think, "Well, this one was true, how many others could be, how often did the game company turn the other cheek?"
I do not personally want to pay for a game that the company does such actions... Others will probably say "can i have all your stuff," all I have in answer to that is the stuff isn't mine, it's CCP's. CCP own the game, owns the characters, own everything in it, and you pay to use that stuff. They pay people to work on and fix the game. And obviously, they pay people to play the game. So using the a=b and b=c formula getting a=c, then in effect you pay the dev's to play the game. So it's your money being spent to pay people to play the game, and then those people take advantage of the game.
To me, I could care less about the BPO's. Sure, they should be removed, that goes without saying. It's more to the point for me, that CCP tried to cover it up. Tried to tell us "they were investigating and couldn't verify the validity of said accusations." But before they even attempted to investigate, they worked, spent time and money, to stop any and all allegations. That's not what I pay for. That's not why people like me keep companies like yours in business. You ban others for uncovering a "conspiracy." This conspiracy happened to have at least a small amount of accuracy, and who knows if it wasn't 100% accurate. By your actions, you have basically told me the obvious, he was right.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:35:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Nullity If one lost a ship or pod to a BOB Sabre or to any of the ammo types listed can one expect to be reimbursed fully?
Well for an ammo like spike L one thing is for sure: Everyone with the skills uses it for sniping anyway, no matter if he owns the BPO, has to pay 100isk or 1000isk per shot. If you buy the guns, you also buy a few thousand shots of tech-2 ammunition and it doesn't hurt the wallet at all.
With a tech-2 ship it makes a difference of course. Interdictor pilot in fleet engagements is often a kamikaze job, so producing them yourself is quite handy.
Anyway, the impact of these BPOs on BoB's wars is surely neglible. The 'hacker blog' showed only those few BPOs that were illegally obtained by a dev, there is not a single hint that more BPOs are involved.
Ok, they have earned/safed money with them, which means a lot of isk for an individual, but BoB has almost 2000 members and there a few hundred million per week don't make an extreme difference I think. BoB are rich and they were it already before these BPOs were added to their pool.
About the dev ? Don't understand, why he did it and even less, why he gave those BPOs to the alliance.
About the other things, there should be an investigation. I wouldn't be surprised, if the account sharing story is true, but well, that's hardly shocking. They are surely not the first, and will surely not be the last. I leave it to CCP to react to that or not.
About the GM in 28y, who inspected the POS. Maybe someone should ask him, why he was there. Maybe someone petitioned something, if not it's a bit strange I admit.
P.S.: The 8/10 complex affair and the carrier cargo exploit have also had an impact on the game. The 1st was used to fund a war, the 2nd to gain sovereignty of a system that played a key role in a war later. There it wasn't BoB. Maybe some people should think about that before pointing fingers.
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Lenwe Ancalimon
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:36:00 -
[702]
T20 is not losing his job over this.. why? I am not at all advocating or even wanting him to be fired.. but the question begs an answer.
Could it be for the same reason some businesses quietly cover up serious crimes, such as a banking scandal so that faith is not lost in their institution by their customers?
Could it also be that this goes deeper than anyone even imagines, and that CCP will retain the culprit so as to control what he reveals and what he does not?
If you look at the extreme scenario.. that BOB routed ASCN mostly on the info that a rogue Dev provided and in fact destroyed ASCN's Titan as a result of said info, wouldnt that be enough for half the player base to quit playing Eve and probably lead to CCP's downfall in its entirety?
Im not saying this occured.. Im just wondering why T20 is and will be the only Dev not fired for cheating...
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:36:00 -
[703]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 I'm pleased to see CCP making it public. What nearly all posters here are overlooking is that they could have just as easily said, "we found nothing, your hacker friend is misleading you". They didn't. And that had to be a hard decision.
Except they tried that:
Originally by: Kieron "As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employeeÆs identity became public knowledge within his corporation. Per company policy, the incident was investigated and actions taken where appropriate, including the removal of characters whose identities were compromised.
The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc. Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations. ... Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employeesÆ EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct or, at least, allow us to quickly discover it, should such an unfortunate scenario arise. ... We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community."
In other words, without actually lying except by omission (which could be corrected later if needed), they did try to say "we found nothing, let's move on". And that actually upsets me more than the original cheating dev.
Also, particularly note the third paragraph. "Last summer" (i.e. June after they caught T20) CCP implemented procedures which "will prevent any misconduct" i.e. implying there is no misconduct going on now. Whilst carefully not saying that the misconduct this investigation was supposed to be into had already occurred.
I was feeling sorry for kieron at having been put in this position, but the words in that post are just too carefully chosen for my comfort.
(Original but now inconveniently unstickied thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=471868 ) |
Nezz Jaran
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:37:00 -
[704]
So explain to me why I should continue to play a game when the "fair playing field" isn't fair?
I'm not talking about the "I just started and can't kill 2 year old characters, ZOMG TEH UNFAAR!". I'm talking about actively being competitive with corporations whom receive insider information and are given items gained by means outside of the normal game mechanics.
In my opinion, if CCP wants to start to rebuild the trust of the player base, they need to show EXACTLY what was done during the investigation. And I don't think I'm out of line for saying that people will scream at the slightest thing that smells funny.
And like my pappy always said: If it smells like ****, looks like ****, and feels like ****, it's probably ****. Or, to put it another way, don't BS us. The player base is obviously very good at detecting the look, smell, and feel of stuff.
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R'adeh
Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:37:00 -
[705]
Edited by: R''adeh on 10/02/2007 00:34:15
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
I think all of this needs to be spoken to. You want to be forgiven? You want our trust back? It starts with the above.
Signed! Not because all of BoB are corrupt DEVS, they got some good guys on board (hi Crohnx), but because they have rotten apples in their ranks. Account sharing with a dev knowing about it (a "normal" community member would get banned), ebaying chars, etc. We all pay to play this game, and it seems kinda pointless to pay if not everyone has the same advantages and rights.
The community deserves to know the whole truth if you want the trust back, we need more than just some lousy "yeah, we're sorry...now pls forget about it fast!" statement! _______________________________________________
My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:37:00 -
[706]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 00:37:59
Originally by: Virida This is just tragic, and i feel sorry for t20, and even if he IS a dev, he made a wrong thing, who ended up casting a shadow on his corp buddies
why? he brought it on himself and he has robbed every paying customer of a having an equal playing field.
how do we know he didnt spawn other things? if he did t2 bpos how do we know he didnt spawn ships themselfs? or maybe even isk? how do we know he wasnt telling bob what setups people would be using in the tournaments? how do we know alot of things havent happened which probably could have.
do you see the seeds of doubt he has seeded in everyones minds? we might aswell believe everything kug has claimed because we will never know the real truth.
if ccp dont fire the guy there basically telling us they arent taking this seriously.
nm its only a few t2 bpos we can remove them and the balance is restored
ccp unban kug's account and maybe some of the faith will be restored in your company, he has done the community and you a favour by exposing this cheating!
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:39:00 -
[707]
CCP, get EveTV open and talk to us.
Let's hear what you have to say to our faces. --------------
...Free Kugutsumen...
On the lookout for devs in BOB disguise. |
Bosie
Tenacious Warriors Acquiring Technology
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:39:00 -
[708]
Also this casts doubt on BoB's alliance championship victories. Now that must be a blow to the pilots that 'won' them tournaments.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston |
Thalen Draganos
Caldari EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:40:00 -
[709]
The main thing here is the trust of the customer base. The fact is that the trust has been shaken in you CCP. If people don't trust you then you loose your customer base. The numbers will stop growing and so will the base status of your business. In your line of business you are completely reliant on an evenly flowing number of new customers and the customers you have staying. With the news of this whole thing reaching beyond EVE, you have no choice now but to do some major damage control otherwise you will lose your companies status. Too much damage has been done now to just stand by, sweep it under the rug, ban peoples accounts and such. You must prove you can be trusted or jeopardise everything CCP has been working for.
The cover-up has failed. The one person in your ranks has been caught and should be removed. Everything should be made public and everything you have done to try to keep this quiet (aka cover it up) must be reversed and a formal apology on behalf of CCP must be made immediately to prevent any further damage and every single Dev account must be publically audited. Whether it is true or not everything must be scrutinised and publically announced to try to regain any and all trust you can in the one commodity your company has, your customers happiness. To have this happen, drastic messures must be taken to try and rebuild the integrity of CCP. After all that is what is at stake. As far as the distrust or dislike in BoB........ the only people that seem to like or trust BoB are those in league with them. So no differences there...hehe
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Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:40:00 -
[710]
...
I can honestly say that this has shaken the foundation on which I based by love of this game. So much information was given about the shady goings-on between BoB leadership and Devs that the likelihood that this admission that only one part of it was true is dubious, at best. Seriously? What possible reason would ANYONE have to believe that out of the numerous theories presented by Kug, only one of them was true?
So, let's just sum up the things that all start to look shady in light of what has now been admitted (and what can easily be assumed): -BoB has won all three Alliance Tournaments -The great race that BoB won, in which CCP decided to allow people to shoot the contestants, had the finish line in BoB space (oh, and they won that, too) -They took down the biggest alliances in the game -They own VAST swaths of 0.0 space
Did they do that all on their own?? Or did the magical dev-fairies have a role in this, too? Who knows? Guess that's the point. Nothing that BoB has accomplished (or ever will accomplish) will ever be attributed to what could arguably be some of the best gameplay. It's all tainted.
Now let's assume CCP takes everything from them and disbands their alliance (possibly the only thing that may squash all the mistrust), the next big alliance that comes along and begins to dominate will immediately face a swift onslaught of calls of cheating. This could possibly start of a never-ending downhill slide, which really sucks.
I guess to sum it all up, I would have to say that I do not believe the vast majority of the "confession" which states "please believe me that this is the ONLY bad things that has happened... trust us!" not to mention that the actions of what would arguably be a small percentage of BoB players and Devs have irrevocably damaged BoB's/CCP's reputation.
My friends and I were just on the cusp of getting ourselves out to 0.0 thinking that we're really hitting the big times and now I just think that I've wasted the past 7 months.
Boo.
Originally by: Hectic Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.
Originally by: Nira Li Hurts doesn't it
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:41:00 -
[711]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic Stuff involving pitch forks and burning torches
Didn't members of Goonswarm call for kugutsumen to be banned, as he had hacked the goonies forums and phished accounts...
So why the sudden change?
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Phreyd
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:41:00 -
[712]
Un fortunatly this has happened I dont see any way that is fair to fix this Issue my self. removeing the Sabres made by the BPO would players that bought them in all honesty only on e solution would work and unfortunately it would mean the death of EVE and that would be roll back to just before the BPO's were spawned. How do you compansate for Every Pod killed by an Illeagle Sabre. How do you replace lost Isk and skills , How can any of this be repaired? I only see us going forward from here. Yes removeing the BPO and the BPC's that were made from that bpo need to be done and all isk that was made that benifited the guilty partys and yes I feel that more then one person was involved. Maybe not from CCP but from even the playerbase. Maybe you start by returning all ships and mods lost to one of these Sabres, Maybe return lost Implants from any pod kills, and any skill points lost also. it would be a start.
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Puca
Amarr United Space Aillance USA
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:41:00 -
[713]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
I am an Alt looking for my own way. The true is within me. Trust no one. Believe.
PROMISES MADE > PROMISES KEPT
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:42:00 -
[714]
/me puts a tinfoil hat on and wonders how many dev`s/gm`s/isd`s are posting with their player chars defending T20
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Delivery Bloke
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:43:00 -
[715]
Originally by: Virida This is just tragic, and i feel sorry for t20, and even if he IS a dev, he made a wrong thing, who ended up casting a shadow on his corp buddies
Get with the program. If t20 had any respect for the EVE community at all he would resign promptly but its pretty clear to me he only cares about himself not for EVE, not for CCP, not for his work collegues and not for the community.
He only cares about himself and the fun HE was having. (tbh he should be sacked anyway at the very least).
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Shanua Stravour
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:43:00 -
[716]
Wow, this is really bad.
Here are some suggestions for the future,
Allow ALL GM decisions to be publicly posted by players. There is no need to even create the possibility of one set of rules for one player and another set of rules for another player based on the subjective views of a GM. If there are conflicting rulings made by GMS then make a policy and stick to it. Why is it such a big secret anyway? This system and policy generates mistrust.
ALL dev, GM, Auroa, ISD, helper accounts/characters should have a symbol on the character info sheet. There should not be any need for anonymity. Secrecy generates mistrust.
If Devs need to test something, test it. Be honest about it. NEVER give any one a reason to ever suspect wrong doing. I can't imagine anyone would ever have a probelm with a dev in a frig joining a blob battle on one sie or th other for purely observation purposes. Join the corp, poof, observe, poof, leave the corp - you did your test, no need to hang around and allow the possibility of being seen as giving any advantages. Precived fraternization will create mistrust.
If Devs want to play the game for pure play reasons, then go play in jove space, make your corps there and fight and pirate one another to your hearts content. Don't ever put your selves in a position to even be considered of cheating or giving an advantage to anyone. Let all the volinteers play there too, they can do Aurora, help ISD stuff in normal space that they need to do with out any political ties to the rest of the galaxy. It is a privilage to have these positions, Jove space is the reward, to play with the devs, but also comes with responsibility and a cost, the cost being not playing with everyone else. The possibility of a conflict of intrest creates mistrust.
Remove any possibilty for anyone to even think there is a conflict of intrest.
Often we hear "trust no one", "becareful who you trust", and so forth. That goes both ways. This situation has hurt the game. CCP needs to open the windows and keep them open. I would assume CCP wants customers to believe that thier product is fair and is as advertised. Right now the customers don't believe it and you CCP are going to have to prove it and prove it over and over again until you are absolutly sick of doing it. All you have to do is be open and honest about it. So you can't be free raoming pirates any more. Well, you don't have to pay to play either - we all have our burdens.
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Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:44:00 -
[717]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Originally by: Virida This is just tragic, and i feel sorry for t20, and even if he IS a dev, he made a wrong thing, who ended up casting a shadow on his corp buddies
why? he brought it on himself and he has robbed every paying customer of a having an equal playing field.
In some fields consumer confidence is backed by legislation but not in the relatively modern genre of MMORGPs but for now we just have to trust in CCP to be honorable. this CCP guy wasn't.
I also am disappointed in their internal investigations, why does this kind of stuff only come out when there is a huge public outcry. The public eye only sees a little bit of CCP activity over all. Yet in that small slice of view corruption was found, scary because that greater level of activity in the game by CCP employees goes unwatched.
Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel |
Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:45:00 -
[718]
Originally by: Toshiro Khan
Originally by: Jacob Majestic Stuff involving pitch forks and burning torches
Didn't members of Goonswarm call for kugutsumen to be banned, as he had hacked the goonies forums and phished accounts...
So why the sudden change?
I can't speak to that issue in an official capacity.
However, I can tell you that if we didn't have Mr. K's assistance, our forum wouldn't be nearly as secure as it is today.
P.S. phpbb is a pile of crap
-dbp
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:46:00 -
[719]
Originally by: Shanua Stravour
Allow ALL GM decisions to be publicly posted by players. There is no need to even create the possibility of one set of rules for one player and another set of rules for another player based on the subjective views of a GM. If there are conflicting rulings made by GMS then make a policy and stick to it. Why is it such a big secret anyway? This system and policy generates mistrust.
/signed we all talk about it anyway on the various other forums and in game.
it does seem like a cover up for mismanagement, even if it isn't. give us the ability to talk about GM calls to boost consumer confidence after this debacle.
Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel |
Maj Woodcock
Minmatar United Space Aillance USA
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:47:00 -
[720]
Edited by: Maj Woodcock on 10/02/2007 00:45:02 never mind,
PROMISES MADE > PROMISES KEPT |
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:47:00 -
[721]
Posting "/signed" or varients isn't constructive and adds little to the thread; please refrain - Serathu ([email protected])
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
Musttang
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:48:00 -
[722]
So what is CCP going to do to make it up to me and all of EVE i have pay to play for 3 years just to know all my hard work to make Isk is fu-- up now all i need to do is join BOB and the GMs will give me all i want lol TY CCP what happen with your GMs //Devs is on your Head!!! SO NOW MAKE IT RIGHT TO ALL OF EVE AND FIX IT SO IT WILL NOT happen agen !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:48:00 -
[723]
Originally by: seeyouauntie So, BOB has used unfair advanages, and broken the EULA to fight their way to the top. They are undeserving of the position they are in.
No matter what anyone says, an advantage is an advantage. It doesn't matter if "they weren't good BPOs".
Eve has become fundamentally flawed. The chain of extra isk, inside info, and whatever else this has gained BOB will carry on as long as Eve exists.
Something serious has to be done about the blatant cheating. An apology is not good enough.
By the way: ASCN has devs in it, and CLS has alot of t2 bpo's, who knows where they came from? LV has a mothership they got becasue they knew about an event well before anyone else. RA has a devs in it, they knew certian complexs were bugged, and farmed them nonstop for billions.
Just to name a few other alliances and issues that you might want to know about, before you go saying all of eve is flawed because of one event.
IMO the "advantages" were handed out pretty evenly among the larger alliances. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Isotobe
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:48:00 -
[724]
What a sad turn of events, everyone involved should feel ashamed and disgraced.
I really wonder if this is just the tip of the ice berg.
People inside CCP & Bob must have known this had happened, yet all we got was denials from both parties.
To all of you who knew, you must be so proud of your actions, you cheated and lied your way to the top, over the genuine efforts of everyone else in game not blessed with your favors.
If there is anyone left in CCP & Bob with a shred of integrity, come clean and do what must be done, purge Eve of those who you know are or have cheated.
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:49:00 -
[725]
Sadly this is a very bad predicament.
On the one hand, t20s work is valuable, and he is beloved by many, on the other he fully knew the "cheat and get fired" rule and willfully broke it, assumably because the thought he wouldn't get cought. (Which he wouldn't have except for third party intervention).
Now, if they decide to apply situational morality and say "but it wasn't that bad, and keep him they completely disregard the one mechanism truly keeping cheating out, which barely worked already, the "cheat and you're fired" rule. So if they don't back it now, we can assume that other people will be just as prone to cheating as t20 at ccp, and now will not even have that fear of losing their job as a deterrant.
He has to be made an example of, or there has to be a new mechanism in place to keep people from cheating. Regardless it is still a case of deciding who does and doesn't have to face the rules, and it is still undesirable to not fire him from the trust standpoint.
The question I suppose CCP has to ask themselves is this:
If he will risk his job for some ingame items, what will he do when outside entities offer him money or a better job?
If I was the boss at ccp, I couldn't trust this man, so I would have to fire him, but neither would I want to lose his valuable expertise. I would put it up to a general vote by the populace of eve as to whether he should see mercy or not, this goes in hand with their saying they are only sa***uarding the game and gaming experience.
Let him be tried in the court of public opinion, and then you get to play pontius pilate and just pass down the people's judgement.
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KentachiSamurai
g guild
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:50:00 -
[726]
If only this never happened...
BoB has obviously recieved DEV help no doubt,
I actually feel real bad for CYVOK now, his ambition of a mighty alliance destroyed! With no idea how much DEV intervention destroyed it...
(anyone want to guess how many DEVS were at the top of BoB?)
One saddened, but willing to continue paying customer,
KentachiSamurai |
Saralle Zhukov
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:50:00 -
[727]
Ok, some of you obviously aren't thinking with your real life hats on. CCP is NEVER going to publically comment on a non-management employees disciplinary action. That is a good way for said employee to end up owning said company. What about Kugutsmen? You have to let him back into the game. I don't know if he actually hacked anything, you can read a lot of blogs as a lurker and copy paste is easy, if somebody else in BoB/RKK didn't get fed up and feed Kugutsmen the info. Mr. Hilmar Veigar Petursson, CEO CCP, Kugutsmen represents a lot of us now, and if the BoB, RKK leadership, that knew about wrongdoing is allowed to continue to play the game you have to let Kugutsmen back in. You might be mad at him now because t20 got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but you are starting up with White Wolf now and this odor isn't gonna go over well with their fan base either. I mean you really want a discovery motion in the US court system causing you to release every communication about this(ese) incident(s)? With all the attendent hoopla in the gaming community press, stop the bleed now, make it all good and police your employees, please, for all of us.
Saralle Zhukov
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:52:00 -
[728]
Originally by: ashher Make a GM Jovian so it is obvious who they are so there is no mistaking who they are
They can be in game alliance, in large corps but it would be so obvious that excepting any gifts from them would be asking for trouble. They can still play, bug hunt etc but not do anything underhand so easily.
I feel sorry for all of the BOB pawns whos once great alliance image now has been tainted for ever, no matter what you achieve or have achieved will now never be looked at in the same way and the stink of cheating will always be with you because of a few of your directors - those directors should be banned for it is obvious they knew what was going on and were happy to accept it.
BOB membership will be declining as people with integrity will leave BOB as they feel this puts their own integrity in question.
Imagine being a dev then, and not being able to stop the convo's or questions or rants and complaints from everyone who now knew you were a dev? No thanks! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
DirtyHarry
Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:53:00 -
[729]
So thats why the portraits took so long to get fixed...
Resign imo, you're done here t20
Havocide - DirtyHarryF-E Homepage F-E Killboard |
Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:55:00 -
[730]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 10/02/2007 00:51:36
Originally by: Popsikle Imagine being a dev then, and not being able to stop the convo's or questions or rants and complaints from everyone who now knew you were a dev? No thanks!
So they shouldn't play.
It has been adequately demonstrated that we can't trust the devs to play in 00 alliances without them spawning T2 BPOs and giving them to their friends.
If they can't play the game impartially, they shouldn't play it at all.
-dbp
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
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Sexile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:56:00 -
[731]
Dear CCP,
As much as I would like this game and you as a company to succeed, you deserve every bit of bad press you receive over this. If your goal was to alienate the playerbase, then I congratulate you, since you have taken every step to do so; you could not have handled these now-confirmed allegations in a worse manner. Instead of punishing the conspiracy of those at fault, you have hounded the innocent and truth-seeking who only sought transparency and fairness. You have been caught red-handed and still denied the possibility of inequality until the very last minute, only to try and brush things under the carpet by 'adress the remainder of the EVE community's concerns' with a weak apology and no punishment for the parties invoved.
You have not even begun to address the EVE community's concerns.
This is not a large game, largely fueled by the community, and if you truly have its best interests at heart then you will address the many concerns voiced by myself and others instead of merely trying to silence them by deleting or moderating posts. If you want to regain our trust, the tool you must use is not censorship, but instead accountability and transparency. The stench of corruption will not leave easily, otherwise.
I maintain that this reach a satisfactory resolution and urge you to do so, for your own sake.
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Biosman
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:56:00 -
[732]
The most unfortunate thing about all this is CCP is not going to reconsider its policy of allowing Devs to be in major 0.0 alliances.This whole scenario is proof to the fact of serious repercussions and is a dangerous game to play.If it was ASCN that had an assumed 5-6 dev players in the HC people would be epeening "we destroyed the devs" and it wouldnt be such an issue,more like a pat on the back and lots of lolling. Sadly this is not the case,and dev involvment has dealt a bad card to Rkk and BoB in general because we will never know if BoB would have done all their acheivements without dev involvement. Devs should join warring factions as war correspondents,on each side,not lurking in shadows undermining bonafide corporations,which they are.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:56:00 -
[733]
Originally by: Kaplanelle Well folks, guess there was a witch found in this hunt after all. I'll trade anyone my tinhat for the woolen eye cozies?
Originally by: Ramblin Man Devs shouldn't be fired over incidents like this They should lose their privilege of having any game account for a considerable amount of time. It lets them continue to do their job (working for CCP), which they've performed well, while keeping them from having a responsibility that they've abused (playing EVE). GMs are in a different situation, as they can't do their job without an ingame presence.
Zero tolerence policies actually make a difference. Easy to say "Bobby's a nice guy, so what if he bonked his secretary... (and opened the company to a $3m lawsuit)". Getting axe for mixing business with pleasure at the expense of your customers is totally called for.
Added the full quote. I explained exactly why I wasn't calling for his head. Designing/working on the game and playing the game are two different issues imo. I can appreciate CCP not wanting to fire their DB lead (afaik), but I for one would be okay with t20 continuing to work at CCP, only in a non-EVE-playing capacity.
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:57:00 -
[734]
If something can put a real dent into the success of EVE, and has the potential of threatening its existance, then such things.
CCP needs to demonstrate, that they do not take this lightly. Words alone are not sufficient, action must be seen:
-> T20 needs to be fired -> The BoB directors, who have actively taken advantage from T20's misconduct, or had knowledge about this but accepted it, need to be banned -> The mothership needs to be taken and given away in a new event
I'm working in the compliance organization of one of the world's biggest companies. I know, that you can restore trust only with radical action. Appeasement is not the correct answer to activities like these.
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Vehestian
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:58:00 -
[735]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
We who are about to lag salut you! 0/ |
Henry Jennings
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:58:00 -
[736]
Just read the CEO's latest little speech on this particular problem -- and it's clear that the dev in question should still be dismissed. For the life of my I don't get it.
It's fine to set up an IA department, look at logs, have dev's play the game, etc. -- but when one exploits his position to help himself or others to things he shouldn't have, it's stealing, period, and should be dealt with harshly.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 00:59:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: seeyouauntie So, BOB has used unfair advanages, and broken the EULA to fight their way to the top. They are undeserving of the position they are in.
No matter what anyone says, an advantage is an advantage. It doesn't matter if "they weren't good BPOs".
Eve has become fundamentally flawed. The chain of extra isk, inside info, and whatever else this has gained BOB will carry on as long as Eve exists.
Something serious has to be done about the blatant cheating. An apology is not good enough.
By the way: ASCN has devs in it, and CLS has alot of t2 bpo's, who knows where they came from? LV has a mothership they got becasue they knew about an event well before anyone else. RA has a devs in it, they knew certian complexs were bugged, and farmed them nonstop for billions.
Just to name a few other alliances and issues that you might want to know about, before you go saying all of eve is flawed because of one event.
IMO the "advantages" were handed out pretty evenly among the larger alliances.
ok, then, proof or stfu.
the same was said of BoB, and the proof shown...so show yours.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:00:00 -
[738]
Reading the post from Kieron - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=471868
I've seen posts about GM's using their powers with dubious consequences. Specifically peeps getting ships replaced within a day where others are forced to petition and then get nothing replaced.
Has any investigation been made into GM conduct aswell ?
Why can't we see peoples allegations of GM misconduct ? If there is nothing to hide then the only repercussion would be trust,,, something which seems to be sadly lacking.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:00:00 -
[739]
Originally by: Obed
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
That's nice.
I quit.
T20 and anybody else involved in this simply must go. Istvaan's an EVE legend in this game - if he's quiting then something really isn't right
Legends will come and go in any game. If Istvaan wants to quit, that's his choice. CCP knows that it is not going to please everyone in this manner, and like any other intelligently run business, they are doing what they believe is the best. It will not be perfect, and anyone demanding a 'perfect' solution is only letting themselves down.
Maybe more information will be given, maybe not, however, anyone who has read the rules for EVE, knows that they are only dreaming if they think EVERYTHING will be made public.
People can cry for difference because it's T20, but the bottom line is CCP very likely cannot legally divulge all the info this lynch mob wants, and ask yourself this: If it was a player, would such details be demanded? Probably, but those demanded would be ignored for the same reasons.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:00:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 10/02/2007 00:16:57 Its this sort of crap that will utterly destroy the US/Canada player base. The US/Canadians are not really MMORPG fans as much as Europeans are - they are FPS/racing/Xbox360/PS3 fans - they buy the game they want, and subscribe to an online service for half the cost of Eve, and get a seamless intergrated voice communications, and in Xbox360 at least - built in video conferencing. And MMORPG fans will be satisfied with all the new MMORPG's comign to Xbox360 and PS3 - and in the case of the Xbox360 - they will play on the same servers as PC users will.
Lag is bad enough, and now the game is rigged, and CCP knows its been rigged by dirty Devs and maybe GM's. This crap is not goignt o attract US/Canadian players. I don't believe the whole story is being made public, and that this in only the tip of the iceberg.
How many petitions are answered by Devs' or GM's in illicit ways?
Im US, with 3 accounts, and I know about 900 other people form the US with 1-4 accounts, and we arent going anywhere....
Try not to speak for everyone kk? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:00:00 -
[741]
what bugs me most is that the so called "investigators" are dev`s them self
boot them and put in ppl who do nothing else then log crunching with every tool at their disposal if it they don`t have the right tool, make it but NO dev accounts and privliges of even the simplest of all commands "/tr name location", nothing besides their player account
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Milana Arkani
Caldari Strategic Expeditionary Force
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:01:00 -
[742]
So far, the community response to this incident seems incredibly (and comically) overblown to me.
t20 probably deserves to be fired, imo. Nonetheless, I am very satisfied with Hellmar's response to the community (including the formation of a dedicated Internal Affairs department), and I continue to have a very high degree of confidence in the overall integrity of the EVE universe. If you have multiple accounts, and you are extremely upset about this incident, and you are hereby cancelling your accounts, etc., then that is all for the best, because you really do need to get a life. P.S. Are you aware that some degree of corruption/cheating occurs in virtually every single institution in existence? Are you aware that nearly every system you use everyday is flawed/broken in myriad ways, whether you realize it or not? There is a reason for that: Nothing in the real world is perfect. (We can only attempt to minimize the number of defects/corruption that exists.) Milana Arkani
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:01:00 -
[743]
Originally by: Saralle Zhukov Ok, some of you obviously aren't thinking with your real life hats on. CCP is NEVER going to publically comment on a non-management employees disciplinary action.
Saralle Zhukov
actually the last guy was fired and the community was informed
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:01:00 -
[744]
A lot of people here are gonna be biased because BOB was involved, but forget bob for a moment.
A dev was in an alliance, he got things for that alliance that he shouldnt have got, he was found out, gave the stuff back and apologised.
But there is evidence that other wrong doings were commited, including giving info to that alliance leadership about future game changes etc.
Everyone wants to know exactly what else was done, who in that alliance knew about it and what are the consequences going to be.
That alliance could be LV, D2, ASCN, GOONs, AAA, we would want to know the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:02:00 -
[745]
Originally by: Juwi Kotch If something can put a real dent into the success of EVE, and has the potential of threatening its existance, then such things.
CCP needs to demonstrate, that they do not take this lightly. Words alone are not sufficient, action must be seen:
-> T20 needs to be fired -> The BoB directors, who have actively taken advantage from T20's misconduct, or had knowledge about this but accepted it, need to be banned -> The mothership needs to be taken and given away in a new event
I'm working in the compliance organization of one of the world's biggest companies. I know, that you can restore trust only with radical action. Appeasement is not the correct answer to activities like these.
Juwi Kotch
so far ccp has done rather well using a broom and a rug.
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Goca
Minmatar Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:02:00 -
[746]
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
LOL nope, pure B.S.
I think the community is entitled to know every single Dev's characters name in this game..
So sad but it's time to clear em out and start fresh..
and fire t20's ass ... I is Goca |
Sally Hanson
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:03:00 -
[747]
The really funny thing is that CCP knows darn well that they aren't going to lose appreciable customers over this; a few days of people griping on the boards, then they either lock the thread or more likely delete it and life will go on like it does before.
The vast majority of players are not at all affected by this issue; and T20 is probably a stockholder or the CEO's cousin or something.
It's all gonna blow over and nothing will change.
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:04:00 -
[748]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
Yes, hire a hacker, that broke into forums and player accounts. good idea! is everyone in goonswarm this smart? How's your cat btw?
Sshhh... BOB alt!
Heads should roll! (PermaBan), no name change etc... no cover up's!
Blacklight Cell Satimo Galavet SirMolle Tholarim TWD
They are CEO's of BOB, they knew what was going on and chose to abuse it rather than report it.
Nothing less just wont cut it.
PS.. Free Kugutsumen, what he did was wrong, but at least he had the decency to tell all, knowing the risks involved by doing so..
Cheaters never prosper! |
Baleorg
Gallente Guys of Sarcasm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:04:00 -
[749]
is BoB banned or why dont i see a single BoB guy posting here (with his main of course...) :-P
BTW: A GOOD Cache-Cleaner |
Draaken
Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:05:00 -
[750]
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
That about sums it up. Highlighted is what is the biggest thorn in my side out of the left-overs that need clearing. And as sorry as t20 might be, he knew what he was risking before engaging in these activities. By all means, I don't see how or why there should be any exceptions made to the "non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts". ____________________ first!!1!! -Capsicum
Originally by: Wrangler I lock, therefor I am.
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IroN HiDE
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:05:00 -
[751]
All the wars faught against BoB... the lost space... lost ships, lost time....
Just doesnt seem fair, and it makes me SICK.
It doesnt matter what has been owned up too, i will never beleive that was all. Im sure the help has been happening for a long time, and its ****!
I will never fight against another bob/bob alliance player, because the name is now tainted and ruined.
The real "Revelation" is that this game is unfair...
/me goes looking for a new MMO IRON
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thesulei
Syndicate Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:06:00 -
[752]
I wish everybody who hasn't got a clue would stop throwing around wild accusations.
I have known t20 since before he became a CCP employee, and I can verify first hand that he has owned that malediction bpo since forever, probably since before alot of you whiners started playing.
He made a very grave mistake, but false accusations at this point are all too easy and it should stop.
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:13:00 -
[753]
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 10/02/2007 01:10:29 I have always considered EVE to be a special game.
CCP... you will have to do better than those two blogs or EVE will become special by being famous for devs playing the game any way damn choose to and using every advantage they have been granted by virute of their job to outpreform the people who pay for their salary.
This whole affair is an utter disgrace. For CCP and for BoB.
Somehow i doubt this incident is isolated and t20 is, indeed, the only dev how did something like this. It seems to me that if he was he would have a much more difficult time covering his tracks. More likely there is more people doing the same, all covering each others back.
I can only hope this affair will presuade the player community to expose the rest of these misuses of position since CCP is clearly not capable of doing it.
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Andrus Delai
Mayven Omni Gestalt
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:14:00 -
[754]
To T20 I accept your apology and forgive you. After all, we are all human. However, you should also be punished for your transgressions. You should be fired and perma-banned from playing EVE. Your punishment should serve as a warning to all who follow you.
To CCP You should be ashamed. The manner in which you have handled this, and continue to handle this is disgraceful. You have been ignoring a multitude of issues and now that the community is enraged, you admit to one of them being true and hope that we focus on that and forget the rest. We aren't that stupid.
To those who say that it's just a game and there's been no harm done. I have cancelled my multiple accounts and others in my corp have done the same. There was a breach of trust and unless CCP does some *drastic* restructuring of it's practices, we will not return. There are other games that I can play where I have an equal chance as the rest of the players in the game.
I had fun while it lasted and I'm very sad to see it end.
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Fuzion Infinity
Gallente Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:15:00 -
[755]
Having just recently joined this game and seeing crap like this going on is very disappointing.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24,000 bytes.Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:16:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: seeyouauntie So, BOB has used unfair advanages, and broken the EULA to fight their way to the top. They are undeserving of the position they are in.
No matter what anyone says, an advantage is an advantage. It doesn't matter if "they weren't good BPOs".
Eve has become fundamentally flawed. The chain of extra isk, inside info, and whatever else this has gained BOB will carry on as long as Eve exists.
Something serious has to be done about the blatant cheating. An apology is not good enough.
By the way: ASCN has devs in it, and CLS has alot of t2 bpo's, who knows where they came from? LV has a mothership they got becasue they knew about an event well before anyone else. RA has a devs in it, they knew certian complexs were bugged, and farmed them nonstop for billions.
Just to name a few other alliances and issues that you might want to know about, before you go saying all of eve is flawed because of one event.
IMO the "advantages" were handed out pretty evenly among the larger alliances.
And lets not forget the RA POS spam just before the Carrier fix.
But people, tend to forget little bits like that.. more so those that can't belive ASCN (who was mainly industrialist.) losta war to BoB (who is mainly PVP.) Or that BoBs success is down to them being very effective in what they do, and not because of dev help. Hell, there is even some people claiming that the Node crashes and server reboots was the result of BoB reciving help.
Come on people when is this going to end?
Are we going to see "Our fleet commander has the runs and that caused us to lose against BoB because he had to dash to the toilet mid fight.. I bet they had someone, working in a sweet factory.. who spiked a chocolate bar with a laxative knowing full well our FC would by that chocolate bar."
I'm done with this witch hunt... CCP are going to be moaned at reguardless of what they do. Those who say they are going to quit... do so.. But can i have your stuff?
CCP I <3 j00 ... reguardless
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Arthur Miller
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:16:00 -
[757]
Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things. |
Bawldeux IV
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:17:00 -
[758]
Originally by: Evil D4rk A lot of people here are gonna be biased because BOB was involved, but forget bob for a moment.
A dev was in an alliance, he got things for that alliance that he shouldnt have got, he was found out, gave the stuff back and apologised.
But there is evidence that other wrong doings were commited, including giving info to that alliance leadership about future game changes etc.
Everyone wants to know exactly what else was done, who in that alliance knew about it and what are the consequences going to be.
That alliance could be LV, D2, ASCN, GOONs, AAA, we would want to know the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence.
you are correct, and I agree totally in the concept.
It isn't important WHO was helped by this or any other dev/gm/mod misconduct, if the player was assisted, then total removal of the benefits it gave (reversal of all the gain from its use/help) or banned perm. (far easier to ban then show a full accounting of the effects of one item that allowed one to gain exponentially from the original cheat...)
If cyvok was found to have been assisted by a dev outside the rules and mechanics, with favoritism no others received, I would demand his ban.
So, you are correct, who gained knowingly is not of import, only that the violation of the offender be met with the punishment set by the rules of using an exploit/cheat.
and the employee that corrupted the game/store/business should be fired.
trust lost ccp.
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Steve Holt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:17:00 -
[759]
I'm glad t20 has come clean about this, and hope he isn't canned for such a foolish thing (it is a damn game), but I'm worried about similar cases that we don't know about that have been tipping the economic scales for years.
T2 bpos should be seeded (for billions, no light investment) by NPC factions, or at least able to be obtained through grinding up corp LP just like faction battleships. The randomized lottery has proven to be unfair and easily manipulated, and is an oddity among all other game mechanics. Invention solves nothing and should be used for T3 items or faction/cosmos stuff instead.
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Pellaeon DuGalle
Caldari Deep Black Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:17:00 -
[760]
1) I still love you T20
2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
3) T20s made his mistake. And I'll bet he'll never make the same one again, in any shape or form. On the other hand, if you replace him with somebody new, who hasn't learnt the hard way how much we all care about EVE, he/she might still be tempted into wrongdoing, and we'll might have this whole saga again.
------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible." |
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Vehestian
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:18:00 -
[761]
"Remain Constructive". Ok. How about editing the T2 market so that Devs can't haxploit the rest of the EVE populace for the sake of selfish gain, in this case. Our ships and mods get nerfed on a monthly basis but the wallets of cheats and nerd-tards stay fatty with effortless in-game cash dropping into them by the sly little hands of, in this case, T20. Construct an apology or recompense that suffices the demands of the folks who pay for this game. We feel cheated, dudes, and this sucks. We spend days and weeks doing things that hacks spend minutes on. ThatÆs as unbalanced as any ship bonus ever was. We love EVE, that's why we play it. Don't make us hate it because of petty crap like this. /Constructive.
We who are about to lag salut you! 0/ |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:18:00 -
[762]
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
don`t count on it, even if a simple ip check run on all accounts for suspicious logins was done
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:19:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:20:00 -
[764]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 01:16:43
Quote: 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
maybe not but the money made from them would have been.
how do we know thats all the bpos? aparently there were 10
how do we even know there the actual bpos? surely you dont spawn crap t2 bpos when u could spawn the good ones
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Durgan Kael
Gallente Killson Corp
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Vehestian "Remain Constructive". Ok. How about editing the T2 market so that Devs can't haxploit the rest of the EVE populace for the sake of selfish gain, in this case. Our ships and mods get nerfed on a monthly basis but the wallets of cheats and nerd-tards stay fatty with effortless in-game cash dropping into them by the sly little hands of, in this case, T20. Construct an apology or recompense that suffices the demands of the folks who pay for this game. We feel cheated, dudes, and this sucks. We spend days and weeks doing things that hacks spend minutes on. ThatÆs as unbalanced as any ship bonus ever was. We love EVE, that's why we play it. Don't make us hate it because of petty crap like this. /Constructive.
FFS, could we be any more on the mark? I want to have your babies, Veh.
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Arthur Miller
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[766]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
You are aware that accounts have been/are banned because they were petitioned for account sharing correct? In this case a developer knew about the circumstances. Rather than thousands of us filing petitions about it, it could be addressed and fixed directly. |
Trilliam Blackthorn
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[767]
Edited by: Trilliam Blackthorn on 10/02/2007 01:19:28 Unfortunately, once someone has demonstrated a lack of integrity, they can never again be fully trusted. Character flaws cannot be fixed, plain and simple.
Having said that, regardless of the repercussions of the Devs involved, the upper echelon of CCP's management team do not apper to be looking at the bigger picture, i.e. how to restore customer confidence. In today's world, a for a major corporation who has been caught in violation of their own policies to make a statement to the effect that "It'll be OK for now on, we're policing ourselves" is laughable at best.
When such a (IMO) dramatically negative issue has been brought to light, an equally dramatic action needs to be taken to restore customer confidence.
In this case, the only logical action to take is to forbid all CCP employees from playing EVE, period. Yes, we understand you all love the game....but you have to step back and ask yourselves..."Do I love my job more?". Is having the ability to play with the toy you've built more important to you than fixing this problem decisively? It simply does not make good business sense.
While it may be "politically incorrect" at CCP, you need to step back, and do your job as managers objectively:
1. CCP employees have been found to have violated the integrity of EVE online on several occasions. 2. Above behavior has had a severely negative impact on both customer relations AND public perception 3. To make such abuse impossible in the future, all CCP employees are now forbidden to play on the TQ server.
There it is, problem solved...confidence restored.
When in charge....TAKE CHARGE.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[768]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 01:16:43
Quote: 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
maybe not but the money made from them would have been.
how do we know thats all the bpos? aparently there were 10
how do we even know there the actual bpos? surely you dont spawn crap t2 bpos when u could spawn the good ones
He may have owned 10, not all of them may have been spawned... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Ocono
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[769]
Edited by: Ocono on 10/02/2007 01:19:13 So the alliance involved with this, Band of Brothers see this and responds with, what?
- this is startling news, I had no idea... - this will be investigated but rest assured we are not cheaters - I am ashamed of this behaviour.
Anyone interested in saving any semblance of face would take this attitude on a topic of this magnitude. What in fact IS the first response?
Quote: "Seriously, you people make me sick. Your acting like the world is coming to an end..we can never trust you blah blah blah.
And it gets even better:
Quote: Some of you are just ****ed off you feel left out. Especially that hacker kid, all of his actions scream..I want to be a cool kid..
Your fools being fed propaganda by someone with there own agenda.
Un
Freaking
Believable
That is just revolting beyond belief. There are so many opportunities here to salvage your tarnished reputation and this is the way you choose to respond.
This attitude speaks volumes about character.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:21:00 -
[770]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 01:18:04
Originally by: Popsikle Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
There is evidence of account sharing on a massive scale in BoD that does not involve any IP numbers or such. Huge amounts of evidence. In fact, I will bet you anything that no senior BoD member will ever even deny it. Dance around the question, or ignore it, probably, but they won't deny it. It's just so blatant.
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mechtech
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[771]
Every problem needs a catalyst to stop it from happening again.
CCP from now on will keep close watch over dev's accounts, and I'm sure the devs are now afraid of the consequences.
In my eyes, all that needs to be done is punish the crime, and move on.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Arthur Miller
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
You are aware that accounts have been/are banned because they were petitioned for account sharing correct? In this case a developer knew about the circumstances. Rather than thousands of us filing petitions about it, it could be addressed and fixed directly.
Right but discussing what happens would be a breach, so even if all you people ask questions, they arent going to answer. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[773]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
so basicly u are for account sharing? normal unimportant ppl who share their account on occasion are banned while this mass scale account sharing is fine, this is not for them to make public but just bann those accounts who do it every other day, pull ur head out of ur ars
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Fuzion Infinity
Gallente Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[774]
Originally by: Durgan Kael
Originally by: Vehestian "Remain Constructive". Ok. How about editing the T2 market so that Devs can't haxploit the rest of the EVE populace for the sake of selfish gain, in this case. Our ships and mods get nerfed on a monthly basis but the wallets of cheats and nerd-tards stay fatty with effortless in-game cash dropping into them by the sly little hands of, in this case, T20. Construct an apology or recompense that suffices the demands of the folks who pay for this game. We feel cheated, dudes, and this sucks. We spend days and weeks doing things that hacks spend minutes on. ThatÆs as unbalanced as any ship bonus ever was. We love EVE, that's why we play it. Don't make us hate it because of petty crap like this. /Constructive.
FFS, could we be any more on the mark? I want to have your babies, Veh.
Dude, seriously. You took the words right out of my mouth.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[775]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 01:19:14
Quote: 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
maybe not but the money made from them would have been.
how do we know thats all the bpos? aparently there were 10
how do we even know there the actual bpos? surely you dont spawn crap t2 bpos when u could spawn the good ones
He may have owned 10, not all of them may have been spawned...
if he really did have 10 bpos as the spy guy reported where do you think he got the money from to buy them? the ilegally obtained bpos obviously
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Voltron
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:22:00 -
[776]
Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle
2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
Quite true, and it begs the question "why do it for something so small?"
It also begs the question "if he'd risk his employment for something so small and trivial, then get away with it for awhile, what did he try for next and isn't telling us?"
This is the way a majority of the EVE community is looking at the situation, and the only way to rectify it is for CCP to bring in a 3rd party to investigate and report, whether they like it or not.
Volt
It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
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Philo Farnsworth
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:23:00 -
[777]
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
I'd certainly like to see investigations of account sharing in Goonswarm, specifically the Jacob Majestic/The Mitanni characters. I'd also like to see an answer as to why the Goonswarm alliance was not punished for a widespread, systematic abuse of the Eve client, with their well-documented portrait hack. Finally, disturbing allegations have been raised about Goonswarm's GTC ring, and the exploiting of complexes by RA.
I would hate there to be a one-sided witch hunt. Eve should be cleaned up EVERYWHERE. As a regular paying customer, I do not want to see an unbalanced investigation. Your efforts should not just stop at t20/BoB. Instead, widespread abuses throughout the game, such as those by Goonswarm and Red Alliance, must be addressed.
Thanks!
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Lone Bear
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:23:00 -
[778]
Nice to see some Witch Hunt going on, nice to see a rebellion for pixels in an online computer game.
Sad to see you dont follow the same conduct about modern slavery, mutilations, human rights being forgotten, your liberty being gone.
Nice to see some enslaved minds going wild for some kilo bites.
Flame me away if that can make your small ego feel greater, you're making me sick, lot of you should go see a shrink and look at what's going on around you so precious "eve character".
Anyway, as a teacher, I'll try to lighten the mind of the youngsters about relativity, elders have been lost forever.
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Fortior
STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:23:00 -
[779]
I'm sad it came to this. I was afraid it would, and it did. I don't think anyone can really appreciate the damage that this has caused to CCP in terms of PR and just a general 'trust'. The important thing isn't what people read - it's what they think. At the moment I'd imagine reactions have been quite harsh, otherwise we wouldn't have seen these blogs this soon. It's quite possible too that t20 is sitting very uncomfortable on his chair at his desk.
It's very hard to talk about someones job like this, but there really are bigger things at stake here. If t20 has to go on the sacrificial altar of PR-damage control, so be it. I very much hope it doesn't, but things rarely go the way you want.
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Matori Kar
Caldari SlightlyAnnoyingGitCorp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:24:00 -
[780]
Edited by: Matori Kar on 10/02/2007 01:20:48
Quote: Posted - 2007.02.10 01:13:00 - [2] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Numerous EVE Community members in various forms --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why was a player banned for this? Why are you banning the whistleblower? Free the guy that brought all this to light!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Rly? Seems like petty vengeance tbh - but hey ho ..
So, how about banning all those other players for breach of EULA and TOS, you know, most of the BoD leadership - account sharing, ebaying etc etc etc
Caldari: Don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked,ship speed, the direction you are moving... etc. Easy Mode w00t!! |
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:25:00 -
[781]
Originally by: thesulei I wish everybody who hasn't got a clue would stop throwing around wild accusations.
I have known t20 since before he became a CCP employee, and I can verify first hand that he has owned that malediction bpo since forever, probably since before alot of you whiners started playing.
He made a very grave mistake, but false accusations at this point are all too easy and it should stop.
You know, you're right. We shouldn't make false allegations.
Like that time when a certain alliance got a Hel from an event. An event that required three freighter's worth of material to be delivered to a certain station. When there is fraps of them only docking a single freighter and then completing the event. That petition was denied, by the way, which means that the allegations were false, right?
Or maybe that time when a certain alliance shot ships inside a POS shield and could lock them from inside the shield. There's fraps of that as well, by the way. That petition was denied, which means that the allegations were false, right?
When GM actions are a black box, all allegations are false until a GM declares them true. Is that the EVE you want to play?
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:25:00 -
[782]
I'm a long time player, and one who usually avoids the forum-politics. However, this issue is really shocking and disappointing. A little of the Eve magic has just been snuffed out.
I believe T20's actions are just the tip of the proverbial ice-berg.
A terrible shame - my corp mates and I we're just about to enter low sec space together and make a real go of it too. A game is unusual in that it relies on a high level of trust between players and the developers to prevent any sort of meta-gaming/cheating from occurring. This is just horribly deceitful on the part of the developers - all of them sullied by the uncovered actions of one.
Eve Screen Saver |
Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:25:00 -
[783]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 01:23:16
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth I'd certainly like to see investigations of account sharing in Goonswarm, specifically the Jacob Majestic/The Mitanni characters. I'd also like to see an answer as to why the Goonswarm alliance was not punished for a widespread, systematic abuse of the Eve client, with their well-documented portrait hack. Finally, disturbing allegations have been raised about Goonswarm's GTC ring, and the exploiting of complexes by RA.
I would hate there to be a one-sided witch hunt. Eve should be cleaned up EVERYWHERE. As a regular paying customer, I do not want to see an unbalanced investigation. Your efforts should not just stop at t20/BoB. Instead, widespread abuses throughout the game, such as those by Goonswarm and Red Alliance, must be addressed.
Thanks!
That's fair. If all major alliances are investigated, the results are all made public, and the punishments are consistent, then I am absolutely in favour of a full audit of all of us.
If things go they way they have been going, though, it'll end up with something like "these 3 GoonSwarm members have been found to be account sharing, and have been banned. We have unfortunately lost the logs for BoB in an unexpected server crash. Whoops!"
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:26:00 -
[784]
Shocking!
Absolutely shocking. That is all I can think of at the moment.
That a dev helped out his buddies? Well, was a mistake and my only advice for this dev is to seek out a counsellor because he risked his job for a computer game? Then is something wrong. But no, that is not was is shocking. Happened, happens, will happen.
The shocking part is that CCP knew about this for many months and did nothing!! THAT is the really disgusting thing.
CCP, how can we trust you that you are honest with us when you give us so little information and only when the community pushed you a lot before?
Make the rules clear what devs are allowed to do and what not, same with GMs and Event Managers. Give us a list of devs, GMs etc. Who is responsible for what?
Don't forbid discussion about GM decisions! Why forbid it if you don't have anything to hide? What do you fear there? Transparency helps to get back trust.
I'm sorry for this dev t20 that he lost contact to the real life so much. Hopefully this event will open his eyes again about the important things in life. Good luck to the person behind t20 even if he disappointed many people.
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Jelan
Caldari Fusion Enterprises Ltd The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:26:00 -
[785]
You know I only ever post into the recruitment thread as a rule, can't stand forums personnally... However i feel moved by this, I will simply say;
A) Our whistle blower made this a fairer place so re-instate him
B) You will do what you want unless enough people protest
C)T20 can i have your stuff, or will you be transferring it to another character? See us at www.fusion-enterprises.co.uk |
Kiwimagic
Caldari Star Ocean Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:26:00 -
[786]
Quote: developer misconduct
Well its been rumor for a long time BoB having "extra" support from dev's, confirmation at last.
There is still the issue of how many other Dev's are doing the same, T20 was caught by chance. how many other dev's have been doing similar things that didn't get caught??
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:27:00 -
[787]
Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
You can't see how CHEAP SABRES could possibly SWING BATTLES?
Are we even playing the same game?
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Steve Holt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:28:00 -
[788]
Edited by: Steve Holt on 10/02/2007 01:26:49 Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
Oh please, at least delete the NPC corp troll slandering us over petty bs.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:28:00 -
[789]
The person who exposed , what has now been admitted to be Dev misconduct, should be praised by CCP if they truly want to clean up the game from corruption.
Banning a whistleblowers account will only deter others from coming forward and helping CCP clean up the game.
Bad move CCP , re-instate the accounts
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Ulti Mate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:29:00 -
[790]
Has this been reported to the Police by CCP? All players agree to be bound by the same terms and conditions when agreeing to activate and pay for an account. Did anybody see where it was stated that an employee was exempt form the terms and conditions. We have all been decieved by T20's illegal/ criminal actions in which he has acted as a representative of CCP/ DEV and indirectly taken our money under false pretences. After all, who would have agreed to pay, knowing that you would be cheated by the people you payed to police and protect your game time?
T20 and co-conspiritors at CCP to keep their jobs? Certainley not. The should be facing criminal procedings.European law has protocols for criminal activity via telecommunications networks and I suspect that more than moral offences have been committed here.
T20 and others at CCP should be dismissed for gross misconduct and named in a public statement, preventing them from obtaining work within the industry with any other reputable company. CCP have a simple task here. Publicly acknowledge and decry the behaviour of those responsible or accept that significant and lasting damage has been dealt to CCP, who then failed to protect its clients from the dishonesty discovered by whistleblowing and not by admission.
Please consider CCP's response before you recommend the game we all love to family and friends. CCP cannot allow this to be forgotten and forgiven as it undermines that fantastic work conducted daily by the honest CCP staff.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:29:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
You can't see how CHEAP SABRES could possibly SWING BATTLES?
Are we even playing the same game?
Sabers are pretty cheap, I would imagine even cheaper for RA and thier complex exploiting tactics! Stop being one sided, really, its growing tiresome. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Lord XSiV
Amarr The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:29:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry CCp> Hi K you got those logs from RKK you hacked from their server? K> sure do right here CCP> listen while you are at it, can you hack into DICE EVOL BNC as well and see what you can dig up? CCP> Can you do D2 next month, I mean if it fits in your schedule or stealing from the FBI and such? K> Ok ill get to work on that right now
Talked to him like that? LOL
CCP should hire K. If one guy can find out in a couple weeks what CCP's internal controls miss for eight months, who knows what other skeletons are left to uncover?
That is quite an insult to those of us in the profession. You don't hire some script kid to test your defenses or to do an audit. It is pure plain lunacy. First, fox in hen house comes to mind. Second is these guys are no where near the same level of skill and expertise as true blackhats.
Keep him banned, he is a disgrace not only to Eve but to the Internet in general.
Please don't troll - Serathu ([email protected])
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:30:00 -
[793]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic And for everyone wanting to give this event a pass, you have no idea how much damage can be caused by a little impropriety by CCP devs or GMs.
For example, did you know that we were supposed to have an entirely new pirate race now?
New ships, new gear, new faction items, new officers.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a new pirate faction with a compelling backstory in the new regions rather than those lame rogue drones that exist only to make you money off drone shards?
Wanna know why we don't have the new content?
A member of the event team (who shall remain nameless) leaked details of the new pirate faction to other members of a certain in-game alliance (which shall also remain nameless).
The new pirate faction was scrapped, wasting months of work on the part of the event team.
I will stab all you apologists in the face with truth.
Sounds like speculation, hearsay, and conspiracy, or do you have evidence to back this rather large claim?
Also, I kinda like the rogue drones out in the new areas, if done properly they could be quite interesting, and a breath of fresh air from yet another pirate faction.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:31:00 -
[794]
btw, letting kugutsumen back in game after braeking the rules, would be the same as letting T20 stay, double standards ftw
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Tainos
Amarria Auxilia Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:31:00 -
[795]
Please remain constructive - Serathu ([email protected])
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:31:00 -
[796]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 01:27:57 Devs have responded
Their responses so far seem to involve "well, we can't talk about it in detail, but we've read your suggestions and we have decided to ignore them! It's for the best, really."
Let's see how it goes.
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Happydayz
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:31:00 -
[797]
wait wait wait.
from the CEO:
Quote: A pivotal case was uncovered last summer during a routine investigation of developer accounts
yet apparently the illegally spawned BPO's were only removed from RKK's hangar a FEW DAYS AGO.
what is this?! What kind of horrible and incredibly lax investigation did CCP conduct the first time around in June that you let something like this slip by?
Why didn't your much vaunted "internal affairs" division immediately start investigating past incidences of abuse?
If they did, why were they unable to uncover such an abuse on their own without third party prodding?
Quote: It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
The community's concern right now isn't that CCP or the devs are biased towards BoB. Only the most idiotic of people would think that. The concern is that there are systemic defects within CCP that allows rampant abuse like this to occur. The fact that you TRIED to investigate such matters through the establishment of a new work division and yet still failed to uncover what a third party did without your resources is absolutely astonishing.
All of that is coupled with the fact that CCP felt compelled to cover up abuse that happened over 7 months ago until they were literally FORCED to bring it to light, and then only grudingly with the total banning of all of that person's ingame characters.
This is another part of the problem: your ill-advised attempt to conduct a cover up. The devs I'm sure know that this is a high stakes game, much unlike World of Warcraft. People play the game in large part because they know that weeks or even months of their effort can be permanently undone by a foe that outmanuevers, outthinks, or simply outblobs them.
All of this is accepted because we believe our defeats are incurred through ingame superiority on the parts of our enemies.
t20's abuse clearly destroys this concept. But what is particularly damaging is that there was a coverup done. The game community understands that INDIVIDUALS can sometimes screw up and conduct unethical behavior. What we expect however is for CCP to deal with these individuals in a fair and most importantly transparent manner.
What CCP's coverup has done is throw a shround on every person's actions in this game.
Since we now know that CCP will attempt to bury any developer/GM/ISD misdeed, the basic belief of fairness that underlies everything in this game is destroyed. Again, people can accept when the outpost they spent weeks/months grinding for gets taken by a superior foe, or if their newly purchased faction battleship gets blown up because of their own momentary careless, ONLY if they believe it happened fairly.
But now there is no longer any guarantee that such ingame consequences were the result of fair play. Why? Because we now know that CCP employees are willing to cheat, that the ingame mechanisms to control this may and in fact have already failed, and most importantly that CCP will never admit to such errors unless the player is willing to resort to extreme/illegal measures in order to garner out of game proof.
gg CCP
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IroN HiDE
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:31:00 -
[798]
Originally by: Lone Bear Nice to see some Witch Hunt going on, nice to see a rebellion for pixels in an online computer game.
Sad to see you dont follow the same conduct about modern slavery, mutilations, human rights being forgotten, your liberty being gone.
Nice to see some enslaved minds going wild for some kilo bites.
Flame me away if that can make your small ego feel greater, you're making me sick, lot of you should go see a shrink and look at what's going on around you so precious "eve character".
Anyway, as a teacher, I'll try to lighten the mind of the youngsters about relativity, elders have been lost forever.
Eve is a game, we all play it, we all put time into it... the only reason you arn't mad, is because you are on the other end of the stick...
i can't beleive you have the stones to even make a post like this...
enjoy your exploit my ego is still the same |
meepsheep
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[799]
Originally by: keiron Originally by: Various EVE community members in different forms Why is t20 still employed?
Here is a quote from Hellmar's Dev Blog
Originally by: The CommitmentUnfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters.
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
then why did ccp keep this quiet then? is this punishment you speak of just ccp taking his character away? that would have happened to any regular players account for cheating! so i hope that isnt all the punishment he got.
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Voltron
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[800]
Originally by: Lone Bear
Sad to see you dont follow the same conduct about modern slavery, mutilations, human rights being forgotten, your liberty being gone.
Sad to see you think this forum is the only avenue people would use to pursue said issues.
Some of us voice our opinions regarding those issues in different places and different venues, most of which are not electronic.
This forum in particular is for issues regarding CCP, not the above mentioned atrocities.
Keep your eye on the ball m8, don't try and derail with those issues, they deserves better.
Volt
It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
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Esaam DeVries
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[801]
For one dev that cheated, how many didn't ? They all must feel pretty low cause they love this game as much as us. I think we should keep this in mind. I personnally believe in the second chance for everyone, including T20. I'd like to add that I really do hope he won't get fired for this because no in-game action deserves to have someone loosing their job and living in the stress of finding another one.
As a conclusion, I want to ask CCP - as a proof of their good will - to send me all their women so I can start my mourning. It will be long... But I'll survive, somehow
-- "Please, would you tell me," said Alice, a little timidly, ... "why your cat grins like that?" "It's a Cheshire cat," said the Duchess, "and that's why." http://www.evetrust.com |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[802]
Removed reference to deleted post - Serathu ([email protected]) __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Bosie
Tenacious Warriors Acquiring Technology
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[803]
Best thing to do is talk with you cash, both my accounts have been canceled until CCP does what needs to be done. That's if they do, but history has shown us that they lack the balls (IPO scams and forum warrior feet stamping?)
Originally by: CCP's homepage We care more We work harder.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston |
aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:32:00 -
[804]
Edited by: aggro on 10/02/2007 01:31:32 Can we have an official statement from bob on all this.
Who knew what was going on etc. What they plan to do. Apologise to all of eve over there actions
Those that took the poison chalice owe it to the honest members in BOB to try and restore the pride they once had in there alliance.
If this does not happen BOB will become a dirty word. the words cheat,hax,exploits will follow them everywhere
Anyone who lose a ship to a bob gang will always wonder if there was something underhand going on. Also if you kill a bob guy. Will he get his ship back using petitions or just see it back in his hanger when he docks up.
The silence from BOB directors etc is deafening
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Akoudoulos
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:33:00 -
[805]
Edited by: Akoudoulos on 10/02/2007 01:29:43
Originally by: kieron Originally by: Various EVE community members in different forms --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is t20 still employed? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a quote from Hellmar's Dev Blog
Originally by: The Commitment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
You had info about this one since the summer and you did not remove the bpos??????? What was your plan about this one? if/when the community founds out then we will remove the prints???
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Arcticblue2
Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:33:00 -
[806]
Well... I do feel bad this have happend to my favorite game through 3 years now, I have spent lots of time refering to this game on various forums and bragging about this being the greatest game and so on...
This case really make me feel stupid and all, note that the game is great... but what happen have made me doubt that some corp/alliances are playing fair.
Now whatever that is going to happen with T20 I don't want to ask for his head... I will feel sorry for him if he looses his job but I do understand that he broke a rule you guys have and so it must probably be something happend there.
To T20, I accept your appology... and I know it must have been very very very hard for you to write what you did.
Now .. apart from those bpo's... what will happend to BoB members who have broken EULA ? the whole thing where bob have seems to be invincible seems too suspicious now with recent happenings. You have stated that you banned the whistleblower for breach of EULA what about BoB members breaking the EULA ?
To end this I must admit it is hard for me to thinking I should continue playing this great game... I have not been very active latly but feel I got a sort of obligation to my corp members but still you guys in CCP do have a huge work ahead to fix this issues now.
For now I will still keep the accounts... while I wait to see what you guys will do to fix this issues.
---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. |
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:33:00 -
[807]
This is a Serious black eye for CCP. The fact that this has happened and was said only by a whistle blower and that CCP took action to supress this information via banning and other fascist policies.
Assuming that this is the limit of the transgresions, and I doubt it is, BoB's reputation is almost completely ruined. Furthermore, we have to consider the fact that under this assistance BoB has taken on and destroyed multiple alliances and altered the political situation of Eve in a number of dramatic ways. In fact BoB is the most powerful force in the game and now that will be attributed back to the developers. This casts doubt on the alliance tournaments and every single event surrounding BoB. Typically an investigator only uncovers the tip of the iceberg and the remaining iceberg could be dismal.
Possibly the only possible resolution to resolve the situation would be to ban the accounts involved, sieze all tech 2 BPOs and cash accounts by the members and to disolve BOB and its member corporations. Extreme? Yes. But this cheating has had a MAJOR effect on the game over the last 6 months.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:35:00 -
[808]
Originally by: Arcticblue2 Well... I do feel bad this have happend to my favorite game through 3 years now, I have spent lots of time refering to this game on various forums and bragging about this being the greatest game and so on...
This case really make me feel stupid and all, note that the game is great... but what happen have made me doubt that some corp/alliances are playing fair.
Now whatever that is going to happen with T20 I don't want to ask for his head... I will feel sorry for him if he looses his job but I do understand that he broke a rule you guys have and so it must probably be something happend there.
To T20, I accept your appology... and I know it must have been very very very hard for you to write what you did.
Now .. apart from those bpo's... what will happend to BoB members who have broken EULA ? the whole thing where bob have seems to be invincible seems too suspicious now with recent happenings. You have stated that you banned the whistleblower for breach of EULA what about BoB members breaking the EULA ?
To end this I must admit it is hard for me to thinking I should continue playing this great game... I have not been very active latly but feel I got a sort of obligation to my corp members but still you guys in CCP do have a huge work ahead to fix this issues now.
For now I will still keep the accounts... while I wait to see what you guys will do to fix this issues.
what about the other alliances getting stuff for free, and insider info, why stop at just BoB? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Reachok
Amarr Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:36:00 -
[809]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Buried deep in the first few posts is this post. Had that GM been flying a plain inty, using normal mods, he'd have not been noticed. Or noticed but not pointed out as a GM blatantly misusing his powers. I'm sure the logs will show him there.
But, my main reason for writing this: How do you undo all the advantage given BoB by the GM being in that alliance? I'm not talking about the BPO's either, although they are a part of this whole mess. I'm talking about insider info. I'm talking about the mysterious lag bombs that almost always preceded a BoB gang or fleet operation. BoB always claimed it was their training, and or proper use of the overview settings that allowed them to win in a battle where the other side has had their computers slow to a 1 frame per second crawl. How do you, how CAN you undo all of that? BoB's so called wins are now under question. You really should do something that sends a clear message to the entire Eve community that not only will Dev's be dealt with harshly for doing this, but the alliance/corporation that they are in will likewise be dealt with harshly. Anything else is a snow job, and a great disservice to the thousands of players that play by the rules every day.
Par'Gellen > I reject your reality and substitute my own. |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:36:00 -
[810]
Originally by: meepsheep
Originally by: keiron Originally by: Various EVE community members in different forms Why is t20 still employed?
Here is a quote from Hellmar's Dev Blog
Originally by: The CommitmentUnfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters.
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
then why did ccp keep this quiet then? is this punishment you speak of just ccp taking his character away? that would have happened to any regular players account for cheating! so i hope that isnt all the punishment he got.
others get fired, he stays... send him on a 1 month payed vacation to look for another job
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Ocono
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:38:00 -
[811]
Originally by: Lone Bear Nice to see some Witch Hunt going on, nice to see a rebellion for pixels in an online computer game.
Ah, a BoB member. Do you know anything about the accusations leveled at your alliance?
Originally by: Lone Bear
Sad to see you dont follow the same conduct about modern slavery, mutilations, human rights being forgotten, your liberty being gone.
Not sure what that has to do with CCP admiting that a dev was cheating and helping your alliance. By the way, did you know anything about it?
Originally by: Lone Bear
Nice to see some enslaved minds going wild for some kilo bites.
Enslaved? On the contrary. We are more free now than ever since the truth is out. By the way, do you have anything to say about the allegations against your alliance?
Originally by: Lone Bear
Flame me away if that can make your small ego feel greater, you're making me sick, lot of you should go see a shrink and look at what's going on around you so precious "eve character".
I won't flame you, but I am wondering: do you have anything to say about the allegations against your alliance?
Originally by: Lone Bear
Anyway, as a teacher, I'll try to lighten the mind of the youngsters about relativity, elders have been lost forever.
I am not sure how that relates to the topic at hand, but while I have your attention:
Do you have anything to say about the allegations of cheating against your alliance?
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:39:00 -
[812]
My main's birth date is in the spring of 2003... and I've never won or owned a t2 BPO. How is this fair?
I've worked towards a goal for years, only to watch a CCP empoloyee spawn some for himself and then give them to someone else. Help me understand exactly how I'm not being personally hosed by CCP.
"I'm so sorry to have cheated; I promise to not do it again" alone isn't enough.
A quick cover-up, 'so sorry' and an XX-page venting thread is not going to make this right.
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Steve Holt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:39:00 -
[813]
Originally by: Akoudoulos You had info about this one since the summer and you did not remove the bpos??????? What was your plan about this one? if/when the community founds out then we will remove the prints???
Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. As measly of an infraction as this is, we have routinely had to deal with game masters stealing billions out of our corpmembers wallets and temp bans with little to no evidence or correspondance from the prosecuting parties. The bpos should've been deleted and redistributed (or at the very least removed from the RKK corp hangars) as soon as the impropriety was discovered.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:39:00 -
[814]
Originally by: Reachok
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Buried deep in the first few posts is this post. Had that GM been flying a plain inty, using normal mods, he'd have not been noticed. Or noticed but not pointed out as a GM blatantly misusing his powers. I'm sure the logs will show him there.
But, my main reason for writing this: How do you undo all the advantage given BoB by the GM being in that alliance? I'm not talking about the BPO's either, although they are a part of this whole mess. I'm talking about insider info. I'm talking about the mysterious lag bombs that almost always preceded a BoB gang or fleet operation. BoB always claimed it was their training, and or proper use of the overview settings that allowed them to win in a battle where the other side has had their computers slow to a 1 frame per second crawl. How do you, how CAN you undo all of that? BoB's so called wins are now under question. You really should do something that sends a clear message to the entire Eve community that not only will Dev's be dealt with harshly for doing this, but the alliance/corporation that they are in will likewise be dealt with harshly. Anything else is a snow job, and a great disservice to the thousands of players that play by the rules every day.
I was assured that this matter is being looked into, and I would receive a response to my petition on Monday. For now, I'm satisfied with how this is being handled.
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:40:00 -
[815]
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 10/02/2007 01:36:20
Originally by: kieron Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
What do you mean by
Originally by: kieron Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer
???
You knew about this before???
And the BPOs were left where they are???
I am honestly dont know what to say right now...
cancel subscription?
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:40:00 -
[816]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Jacob Majestic And for everyone wanting to give this event a pass, you have no idea how much damage can be caused by a little impropriety by CCP devs or GMs.
For example, did you know that we were supposed to have an entirely new pirate race now?
New ships, new gear, new faction items, new officers.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a new pirate faction with a compelling backstory in the new regions rather than those lame rogue drones that exist only to make you money off drone shards?
Wanna know why we don't have the new content?
A member of the event team (who shall remain nameless) leaked details of the new pirate faction to other members of a certain in-game alliance (which shall also remain nameless).
The new pirate faction was scrapped, wasting months of work on the part of the event team.
I will stab all you apologists in the face with truth.
Sounds like speculation, hearsay, and conspiracy, or do you have evidence to back this rather large claim?
Also, I kinda like the rogue drones out in the new areas, if done properly they could be quite interesting, and a breath of fresh air from yet another pirate faction.
Why bother? It has been adequately demonstrated that the only way to get CCP's attention is to spam the forums until you're tepidly acknowledged.
Then you have to go through the indignity of having five of your accounts banned as CCP frantically tries to shoot the messenger.
Seriously, why bother?
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:40:00 -
[817]
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
BoB butt smooch if I ever seen one...(high there BoB alt <waves>)
The character name is not the account name. So explain how exposing a banned character name, due to a violation of a rule, is a breach of privacy...
character name provides no personal or account info what-so-ever.
comparing it to credit card security and thinking people would quit over a character name being exposed for shame is just a major attempt to SPIN the topic and make it appear as not so bad .
CCP lost trust, corruption gave some an advantage, who gives a flying F who, the benefactors gained knowingly, and there is a rule for it...it just isn't enforced on some (proof is shown).
You are a muppet.
If one breach of the privacy policy is acceptable, why wouldnt other breaches be acceptable?
If you want to take down one alliance for dev "infos" why not take down the rest?
__________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:41:00 -
[818]
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
you can figure out how much money those bpos generated and remove it from the people that benefited ie rkk/bob.
you can trace isk from isk sellers so why not from t20's character?
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
marianis
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:42:00 -
[819]
CCP - This sucks, its understandable why at first you denied stuff, at least were recieving some honesty now - keep up the good work and ensure it dosnt happen again. I dont know this apparent hacker who leaked this issue - BUT it seems to me he should be unbanned.
However big this issue could be remember people you still love this game and your addiction was not based on people recieving BPO illigitimately and knowing bugs etc. If CCP knew it wouldnt of happend - be fair on them, they work hard to make our game great, and this was probably as big a nightmare for them then for any of us.
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Pika Chu
Caldari Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:42:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Tab'Fren My main's birth date is in the spring of 2003... and I've never won or owned a t2 BPO. How is this fair?
I've worked towards a goal for years, only to watch a CCP empoloyee spawn some for himself and then give them to someone else. Help me understand exactly how I'm not being personally hosed by CCP.
"I'm so sorry to have cheated; I promise to not do it again" alone isn't enough.
A quick cover-up, 'so sorry' and an XX-page venting thread is not going to make this right.
Ive got just under 900K RP on multiple toons, and havent gotten one either ;( Thats why the whole lottery is dumb in the first place. I dont think 6 t2 bpo's given to bob help my chances, but maybe I woulda gotten lucky ;(
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elohllird
Gallente Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:44:00 -
[821]
This is the best EMO thread ever
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:44:00 -
[822]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
you can figure out how much money those bpos generated and remove it from the people that benefited ie rkk/bob.
you can trace isk from isk sellers so why not from t20's character?
What about the people who purchased the items, hauled them and resold them somewhere else....
Every item made in eve affects alot mroe then one person, so trying to fix the issue now would be pointless, imo. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:45:00 -
[823]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Originally by: Virida This is just tragic, and i feel sorry for t20, and even if he IS a dev, he made a wrong thing, who ended up casting a shadow on his corp buddies
why? he brought it on himself and he has robbed every paying customer of a having an equal playing field.
In some fields consumer confidence is backed by legislation but not in the relatively modern genre of MMORGPs but for now we just have to trust in CCP to be honorable. this CCP guy wasn't.
I also am disappointed in their internal investigations, why does this kind of stuff only come out when there is a huge public outcry. The public eye only sees a little bit of CCP activity over all. Yet in that small slice of view corruption was found, scary because that greater level of activity in the game by CCP employees goes unwatched.
It only comes out due to public outcry, because no business on earth makes such internal issues public. Any company that is publicly traded would have its stock fall through the floor every time something like this happens, and people would take even a small problem and blow it out of proportion.
Tomahawk, you and many others need to realize that CCP is doing a VERY uncommon thing in making so much information public. Companies are not required to make everything that goes on internally, public information. Do you think that Blizzard and SOE have never had these sorts of issues? If you do, you are HORRIBLY mistaken. The difference is they shut up anyone who says anything about it, and the vast majority never knows about it, or only hears about it as some 'stupid conspiracy'.
My faith in CCP is shaken by events like this, but the fact that kieron said, and did, give us information on the investigation, and not simply a 'we will deal with this', and end discussion, speaks volumes about how much they do care to communicate with us.
Sadly, what makes this event so huge, is the nature of T2. Imagine if T2 were more common (like, if say Invention gave T2 bpos with horrid me/pe), while this would be wrong on several levels, it'd largely trigger a 'wtf, idiot' response.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Cker Heel
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:46:00 -
[824]
Originally by: Luthien Firefoot Seems pretty simple to me:
1) Fraud, committed by an employee is gross misconduct and should therefore result in termination of employment.
Fraud? Changing entries in a database used for our entertainment is not fraud. It degrades the illusion of a the virtual world and offends players, but it is not fraud.
t2's punishment has not been spelled out, but depriving him and his family of their livelihood for contaminating your entertainment of a virtual world is way out of line.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:47:00 -
[825]
Originally by: Pika Chu
Originally by: Tab'Fren My main's birth date is in the spring of 2003... and I've never won or owned a t2 BPO. How is this fair?
I've worked towards a goal for years, only to watch a CCP empoloyee spawn some for himself and then give them to someone else. Help me understand exactly how I'm not being personally hosed by CCP.
"I'm so sorry to have cheated; I promise to not do it again" alone isn't enough.
A quick cover-up, 'so sorry' and an XX-page venting thread is not going to make this right.
Ive got just under 900K RP on multiple toons, and havent gotten one either ;( Thats why the whole lottery is dumb in the first place. I dont think 6 t2 bpo's given to bob help my chances, but maybe I woulda gotten lucky ;(
onlt 6 confessed bpo`s, u don`t risk employment for that ****
trust me when i say that this is the tip of the iceberg of this crap as no one has whined to date about dissapearing bpos/top notch modules, u know how serious to take ccp`s "investigations"
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mallina
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:47:00 -
[826]
i see no reason for t20 to be fired over this. he is a valuable asset to CCP and the community, and although his actions were wrong - i think he deserves a second chance
although thats not to say he shouldn't be punished for it.
the actions of the guy who found it out however make me sick. using illegal methods to obtain admin access to someone's private forums, no matter what it may find, is an invasion of privacy and using anything from it as evidence could be very bad for the game in the long term.
why try to kill your enemy when you can instead dig up dirt on them and get them banned? lots of dirty secrets were uncovered on BoB forums, yeah, perhaps, but what did you expect to find? not a single instance, anywhere, that suggested a player was doing something against the EULA? very naive tbh. practically everyone who plays EVE breaks the rules/EULA at some point (although not in a way that actually makes the slightest bit of difference to anyones gaming experience or otherwise RL) , whether they know it or not. if they were all to be banned, there wouldnt be many players left.
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Drused
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:47:00 -
[827]
Quote: Rather than post comments in the thread where player discussion is taking place and those comments will become lost amongst the other posts that will follow, I am starting this thread to address the most prevalent concerns brought up. For the sake of clarity, I will keep this thread locked, but I will quote the poster in my responses.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Quote:
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:13:00 - [2]
Originally by: Numerous EVE Community members in various forms Why was a player banned for this? Why are you banning the whistleblower? Free the guy that brought all this to light!!!
We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Quote: Posted - 2007.02.10 01:25:00 - [3]
Originally by: Various EVE community members in different forms Why is t20 still employed?
Here is a quote from Hellmar's Dev Blog
Originally by: The CommitmentUnfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters.
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
-Surely you are joking. You aren't doing anything to him? He cheated, lied, and exploited over the summer and you are keeping him. What is wrong with your company. You are only proving that your company endorses dev-cheating and setting a precident for people to get away with it in the future.
Quote:
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:39:00 - [4]
Quote: What are you going to do about the ISK/items created/ship losses/etc. that came about as a result of the BPs being in the game for so long?
We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
-What are you doing about all the other allegations and escapades that revolve around this lying, cheating, exploiting employee?
-Why does CCP seem to think that they can sweep all this under the rug?
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:52:00 -
[828]
This event is very upsetting. I've played Eve since early Beta and have prayed (both IG and OOG) for some T2 BPOs that I could use as a builder. I've always felt the lottery was bad but to see this just reinforces my view.
Rules were clearly broken on several fronts.
- Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
- T20 did break not only the EULA but the rules of his employment. This is perhaps the worst part of this that he has put his real life job on the line. I love Eve and am passionate about RP gameplay but not for a minute would I put my job, house, wellbeing, car, etc, on the line for any game. Eve does have a way of wrapping you up in it but in the end it is still just a game. T20's employment should be terminated over this. The rules are clear as the CEO said and must be followed. Iceland is a small country and I'm sure not an employment hotbed that is sad because T20 has some good skills and a love of Eve and will end up who knows where now. Sad but essential to show future CCP and Aurora workers that there are consequences to "cheating".
- BOB has been accused of alot of things and while they're not my personal favorites I do know they work well together as a team, they're disciplined, they're loyal and they're fanatical about the game. Things like forum hacking and TS hijacking I've never experienced so I won't comment on them (I don't approve of them). Still alot of things in the game seem to be "anything goes" and they're just playing that way. BOB will be hurt by this reputation wise. From here on out they could destroy every corp in Eve but they can't destroy the perception they are "cheaters" and that perception is impossible to defeat.
- Those that knew about the BPOs from the affected alliance need to also be banned from the game. Sadly to know about an exploit and not report it makes you just as guilty as the person who did it imo. The fact it was ignored by people who stood to benefit in some way by it clearly means it wasn't just an "accident". These people need to be accountable.
- Personal information about a player was posted on the forums in clear violation of the EULA (from what I've read). CCP needs to address this and take whatever action is required.
- CCP needs to be transparent in their dealings around this event and future ones. I'm imagining there are other "things" they've found or will find with future audits now that they've been outed this way. To restore the trust of the playerbase open communication and honesty is essential.
Conclusion - It will take alot of hard work and time to restore the faith of the Eve player community. People feel betrayed and angry and are hurt as readily evidenced by comments like "I've been playing to be equal for so long and all I've been doing is playing for someone elses gain" (example). People are frustrated by this and now are tossing firebombs everywhere. There is a "secret scandal" around every corner.
But CCP has things going for it as well. We're fanatical about this game as players. Its the only game like it around. We love the people here. In the end CCP will recover I have every confidence. I think this will be a lesson well learned by CCP and will be taken to heart. If CCP is guilty of anything its just being human and being "normal guys" (look at their pics and you'll see what I mean). They're just like us.
So I wish CCP good luck and I'll be around the game doing what I do. Please don't let this happen again and if it does just be honest about it the first time. I really think this is the greatest game in town and you guys do a pretty good job.
Archie
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
MFWood
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:52:00 -
[829]
Well, we have several issues here. Many game related and ultimately meaningless in our lives aside from our current preferred haven of relaxation and entertainment, but also several issues that cross the legal lines drawn by law.
First, the game issues (so I can get that off my head and think clearly while pointing out the legal issues later in this post)
Hmmm let's see..... I make an eloborate plan to get into Fort Knox and once inside I am only gonna take a sandwich from the employee's fridge? Hell no, I am toss every gold bar I can safely carry out into my pack and maybe even fill my pocket with gold shavings from the floor.
You mentioned the Sabre and some ammo BPOs. Hmmm do you really think 300k people are that stupid? There were more , CCP knows it whether they decided not to look any further after finding these few or whether there is still a coverup underway on a grander scale. Who is to say how long this has gone on and how many BPOs have been given out to various entites outside of the set parameters for their distribution.
This is just one in a long line of accusations of improper actions done by CCP staff in favor of certain entities (usually BoB but no doubt others have profitted as well.)
Also on this list (some not possible to prove even if they in fact happened or not).....
- NPC suddenly showing up to assist a player alliance against another player alliance's POS.
- Unfair reimbursment of ships lost in PVP engagements, losses to NPC not so important, but PVP should be take with a higher degree of scrutiny.
- Devs providing intel to assist player entities against each other.
- unfair rigging of in game "events". One particular incident happened a couple days ago. There have been no events in the north since I have lived there the past year and a half. Suddenly once BoB arrives in mass into our territory a Sisters Of Eve event takes place in the system in which they had amassed. Hmmmmmmm
- game mechanics information and game changes to come being told to players so they can prepare and benefit unfairly immeadiately after a patch makes major changes to the game.
There are far too many "coincidences" for CCP to just push this under the rug while they throw out a small scandal involving a supposedly handful of BPOs to try to satify the angry masses.
Do something, and do something substatial in a timely manner or you really do risk losing your dominance in the MMO market.
---
Legal issues (take note of this CCP)
The passing out of person contact and location information of an individual is not only a violation of game agreements, it is a violation of LAW in most civilized nations.
Add to that the fact the the information was passed out with the intent of having someone inflict financial or physical harm to another individual and you now cross into actions which can be criminally prosecuted under both long standing laws as well as many of the newer laws regarding terrorism that have been added to the books since 911.
To cover your own arses (CCP), you need to first inform local and national authorities in Kug's locale of the incident and you need to take the further step of permanently banning Molle and making sure he doesn't return under another name.
While we know for sure there are cheaters within BoB, most of believe that the vast majority of BoB players are honest gamers just looking for the same entertainment that the rest of us seek.
Having said all that, CCP you have done an awesome job with the game. Your efforts in creating, maintaining and improving this game are phenominal. Let's not let an incident like this bring down the game we have all come to love.
On a side note: Stop adding new things and focus all efforts on fixing what doesn't work. FLEET COMBAT!!! Lag prevents any fleet combat from ever happening fairly. If another game came out that had that problem solved there would be a mass exodus from Eve. Make it your priority, fix it PLEASE!
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Gehlen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:52:00 -
[830]
Just wondering when some legal shark comes up with the idea to file a class action suit against CCP for breaching their agreement with the playerbase to provide a fair and even playing field.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:53:00 -
[831]
In response to the dev response (heh), and responding to kieron directly:
Quote:
We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
Please inform us of which EULA/TOS rules were broken. Seeing as there's this whole clause in your EULA that states that you can ban anyone at any time for no reason whatsoever, I hope there are actual EULA violations, and not just that this "we can do whatever" clause was used.
I, personally, still think that he should either be unbanned, or his perma-ban be turned into a timed ban. EULA or TOS violations or not, if it wasn't for him, I don't think you guys would've mentioned anything about t20's little "misstep".
And that, to be honest, is disappointing. Suppose he would've gone straight to CCP with his information, would you have investigated that? And publish the fact that you did an investigation because allegations were raised?
Frankly I doubt that at this point in time. If one has information from 6 months ago that indicates misconduct, and also indicates that it's highly likely CCP management found out about said misconduct, but has not informed the community, I'd seriously doubt that going straight to CCP would have resulted in any effect.
The community, us, the people that make sure you guys have a paycheck, deserve the right to be informed about misconduct by developers, GM's, or ISD staff. We do not pay $15 every month to be treated like children, nor do we pay $15 a month for a game where we can no longer be sure of who is telling the truth.
Besides, I do have knowledge that CCP, or rather, you, kieron, decided you had nothing to discuss with Kugutsumen unless he would close the site to the public. Which he did. Which still resulted in a ban afterwards. If you were to look at that from an outside perspective, that sounds a lot like damage control.
I'll most likely keep playing EVE, even though my trust in CCP as a company has pretty much hit rock-bottom at this point, and only because there is no comparable game out there -- I think that sentiment can be found throughout your customer base at this moment. Realise that this is not just a case of "oh, it'll go away" -- it won't. You, as a company (by the actions of a dev and by your own actions in handling this case), have broken the trust between you and us, the players. You will now have to regain that trust, something that is infinitely harder than losing it.
*steps off soapbox*
...Free Kugutsumen... |
BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:54:00 -
[832]
Edited by: BustyBounty on 10/02/2007 01:52:46
Quote: t2's punishment has not been spelled out, but depriving him and his family of their livelihood for contaminating your entertainment of a virtual world is way out of line.
i dont pay for this game for the devs to cheat and get a slap on the wirst as punishment. he abused his position in the company and that my friend is a FACT! you abuse your position in any other company and your out of a job no buts about it.
i hope t20 isnt one of the people who played ultima in the same guild as the founder of CCP ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Stede Bonnet
Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:54:00 -
[833]
Originally by: kmac1 So while the rest of us, who don't have dev buddies, and who haven't been given dev or GM perks, try to play our game, get a royal crap on EVERYTHING we've ever done in this game. While those of us were trying to get ourselves up, build our isk, establish our characters, PVP, trade and enjoy the game for fun, the people we trusted to ensure that this was be a fun, PLAYER DRIVEN Economy, Trade, ETC.. was all for squat.
Thank you CCP, thank your devs and GMs for ruining a great game that I started out in Beta as, payed my REAL LIFE money to play, and has now seriously tainted how I'll EVER look at EVE again without thinking that no matter what I do, what anyone else does, if it's a pet of a dev or GM you just have to suck it up..... LAG ISSUES?!?!?!
Sorry, but tbh, you guys cant anchor POS's to save your life, its not the devs fault you guys are realllly bad at eve! I mean you should put SOME guns on your towers at least, and maybe put the batteries online....
Or hell even anchor them. _______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered.
SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA! |
Skaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:55:00 -
[834]
To Kieron
The first posts you made of this you made this sound as something minor and non relevant, now apparently CCP policy or it's view on this matter has changed.
What changed your mind? You have to admit that CCP's reponse after this revelation (no pun intended) by a member of the community seems to bear the mark of serious damage control and cover up of an embarrasing incident. - -
PINK PINK PINK PINK |
IroN HiDE
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:56:00 -
[835]
Im joining bob if i can get free money and ships with no consiquesnces!!!!
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:57:00 -
[836]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 01:54:17 Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 01:53:27
Originally by: Archbishop - Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
- T20 did break not only the EULA but the rules of his employment. This is perhaps the worst part of this that he has put his real life job on the line. I love Eve and am passionate about RP gameplay but not for a minute would I put my job, house, wellbeing, car, etc, on the line for any game. Eve does have a way of wrapping you up in it but in the end it is still just a game. T20's employment should be terminated over this. The rules are clear as the CEO said and must be followed. Iceland is a small country and I'm sure not an employment hotbed that is sad because T20 has some good skills and a love of Eve and will end up who knows where now. Sad but essential to show future CCP and Aurora workers that there are consequences to "cheating".
It is clear to me that Kugutsumen's one big mistake was not hacking people in the summer.
Hear that, guys? EULA is suspended from June 1 to August 30!
There's just one more thing I need to know: should I switch off my macros and stop account sharing at midnight August 30 Eve Time, or EST?
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:57:00 -
[837]
Unfortunatly CCP you have dug yourself into a very deep hole. From which there may be no climbing out. No matter what you do there will now always be an element of doubt in what you say, myself included. You could say you fired T20 and then just have him go by another name. And we would probably never be the wiser.
If I were in your position I would take these steps immediatly before the community loses any more faith in you and your game.
1. Fire T20 - This should have occurred as soon as you found the problem.
2. Hire an independent firm to confirm or deny that all allegations have been delt with. Let them verify that there is not a bigger pattern of corruption.
3. Remove all Dev run characters from the live server. Sorry fellas but power corupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.
4. Disolve BoB - Although there may be some honest corps in the alliance there is no way to verify that the advances BoB has made are not because of the tainted actions.
5. Ban all of the BoB directors. Account sharing is against the EULA plain and simple. If you do not enforce it you are only opening your self up to larger problems.
Although these actions will help reduce the amount of distrust that has quickly been established you will face a long road before all the members of this community trust you again. Lets hope that EvE survives. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:58:00 -
[838]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
You're kidding right? They probably made a fortune off these selling the missiles on the market.
Calculate T2 ammo profits before you state something.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:58:00 -
[839]
Originally by: Toshiro Khan But can i have your stuff?
If you need extra storage space, I'll hold all the T2 mods and BPOs for you.
Sorry folks, had to give crappy joke to try and lighten the atmosphere of the forums.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:58:00 -
[840]
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
No, but you can do something to make it right. Saying your sorry your employee was cheating your customers isn't enough.
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:59:00 -
[841]
Please refer to our Forum Rules regarding signatures and email us and don't dicuss moderation. -Eldo ([email protected])
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Nuska
Amarr Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 01:59:00 -
[842]
Originally by: Cker Heel t2's punishment has not been spelled out, but depriving him and his family of their livelihood for contaminating your entertainment of a virtual world is way out of line.
Before anything else CCP is a business. A CCP employee has been found guilty of severely damaging the integrity of CCPs business, and thus directly affected the livelihood of all CCP employees as well as the trust CCPs customers have placed into the business.
Not removing such an employee would be way out of line.
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Ka'lorn Font'a
Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:00:00 -
[843]
Originally by: Mysticaa Unfortunatly CCP you have dug yourself into a very deep hole. From which there may be no climbing out. No matter what you do there will now always be an element of doubt in what you say, myself included. You could say you fired T20 and then just have him go by another name. And we would probably never be the wiser.
If I were in your position I would take these steps immediatly before the community loses any more faith in you and your game.
1. Fire T20 - This should have occurred as soon as you found the problem.
2. Hire an independent firm to confirm or deny that all allegations have been delt with. Let them verify that there is not a bigger pattern of corruption.
3. Remove all Dev run characters from the live server. Sorry fellas but power corupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.
4. Disolve BoB - Although there may be some honest corps in the alliance there is no way to verify that the advances BoB has made are not because of the tainted actions.
5. Ban all of the BoB directors. Account sharing is against the EULA plain and simple. If you do not enforce it you are only opening your self up to larger problems.
Although these actions will help reduce the amount of distrust that has quickly been established you will face a long road before all the members of this community trust you again. Lets hope that EvE survives.
No, no no no and... No.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:01:00 -
[844]
Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going to do about the ISK/items created/ship losses/etc. that came about as a result of the BPs being in the game for so long? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
average market price * amount of runs over that time
guess i`ve just been promoted to rocket scientist
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Stede Bonnet
Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:01:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Tab'Fren
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
No, but you can do something to make it right. Saying your sorry your employee was cheating your customers isn't enough.
So what is enough? What can they do that will change everything thing thats happened?
Do you really want them to roll back TQ 6 months? Would that make you feel better? We can relive the whole bob/ascn war again! _______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered.
SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA! |
Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:02:00 -
[846]
Originally by: Tab'Fren
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
No, but you can do something to make it right. Saying your sorry your employee was cheating your customers isn't enough.
Banning the accounts and all associated accounts that have benefitted should be done with all speed. All confiscated funds, ships, modules and BPOs should be spawned on the market and/or given to those on the recieving end of this misconduct.
To be honest CCP I'm gonna think seriously about quitting. You've made a big fek up and I don't currently see a game worth playing.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:02:00 -
[847]
Originally by: Archbishop
- Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
Where Kugutsumen lives, there is no law against it. If there is no law, he can't break it. Invalid reason for banning, in that case.
Please see the Forum Rules regarding signatures -Eldo ([email protected]) |
DuckQuack
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:03:00 -
[848]
I keep seing tons of people saying that this is ruining ccp, and that ccp has known about this for 6 months and are just trying to cover it all up.
where do you guys get your facts? i wanna see them.
All i have seen is ccp saying that : They have become aware very recently that a certain dev has been cheating. They began investigation. They already had random audits on all dev's and gm's. They found a certain dev had indeed been cheating. They tell us that they have learned from this to set higher standards for audits. And they tell us that there is one non-negotiable rule on cheating.
So where do you guys say they are : Covering it all up. Have known it for 6 months. and why are you guys losing your faith in ccp, which is the best company in the gaming industry to keep contact with it's customers?
It's one persons mistake, why does it have to tarnish the entire company, when the company obviously does not support it and are doing everything to remove it?
You guys are behaving like a lynch mob, and reaction just as if this was a political scandal. Don't you think we have enough of this in the real world?
Let's start using our brains for once, and not be ruled by emotions/following the mob.
All i have to say to ccp.
Good work, i have faith in you guys.
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Kruzenshtern
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:03:00 -
[849]
Originally by: kieron
We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
Where there's a will, there's a way. I concur that the damage is hardly possible to estimate, both in isk and consequential income, and *especially* in leaked insider info. I have posted as much in this thread.
However, if you confirm that the damage IS there, and IF you are willing to redress it, there are ways. Apply consistent policy. Ban account sharers who have been disclosed through the whole hoopla, and doubtlessly easily proven by your logs. Withdraw event rewards which have even a tiniest doubt of being unfair, that possibly includes free motherships and stuff. Don't tell us you are helpless in *your* game for which we all pay. Post detailed explanations why certain complexes and long term faction event arcs ended up where and how they is. Do something.
But I myself would rather have a rude word from someone who has done me no harm Than a graceful letter from the King of England saying he's sorry he broke my arm. |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 02:03:00 -
[850]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Archbishop
- Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
Where Kugutsumen lives, there is no law against it. If there is no law, he can't break it. Invalid reason for banning, in that case.
it is with the eula he agrees with every time he logson on wich u can be banned
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:04:00 -
[851]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 02:00:44
Originally by: DuckQuack I keep seing tons of people saying that this is ruining ccp, and that ccp has known about this for 6 months
You know who said this? CCP. Read all the links in the OP.
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Lord Darkness
Super Muppets Accumulated Space Holding Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:04:00 -
[852]
kieron,
Just wondering if the players that were accused of other improprieties Ebay, account sharing etc are being full investigated?
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:05:00 -
[853]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
WHITE WASH.
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:08:00 -
[854]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar
Devs have responded
Originally by: Kieron
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
That proof however exists. Do you want it? Would you act on it if you did? Or, is this more of the head in the sand coverupcoverupcoverup hope the issue goes away routine?
Band of Devs indeed.
What about T20 witnessing, taking part in, if not outright PLANNING, the BoB cynonet account sharing? Funny how you continue to ignore the most pointed and relevant issues.
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BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:09:00 -
[855]
Quote: We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
then surely you cant remove the bpos from the game either.... you dont want to punish innocent people but you dont want to punish the guilty one either from the communitys perspective ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Frogzuk
Dragonian Freelancers Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:09:00 -
[856]
Edited by: Frogzuk on 10/02/2007 02:08:48 This is a start in the right direction in terms of dealing with what is blatant cheating.
What does concern me is that, BoB aside, how many other alliances in game actually 'gained' as a result of GM/DEV involvement ? As one poster noted 'where there is smoke there is fire'
To be frank, if i were in an alliance that actually benefited from some form of 'cheating' / 'assistance' and its has been proven i personally wouldnt want any more to do with that said alliance, as the credibility of the said alliance has been shot to shreds !
There are still many unanswered questions surrounding other issues ie pos shields, GM involvement with carriers/Fighter drones / GMS flying around moons... the list goes on... And if CCP want to truly stand up and gain respect from us the paying customer they should treat everyone equally across the board
1) mr moll should be banned for revealing real life information on forums period
2) DB P should be banned for breaching of the eula in relation to acquisition of another account
3) All parties involved with the actions to gain an edge as a result of GM/DEv involvement should be banned
4) The setting up of a whistle blowing scheme, which is common place in large organizations these days, where us the paying customer can confidently address issues without the worry of there own accounts being banned
5) The setting up of a third party investigation team to address any future wrong doings
6) INFORMING THE EVE COMMUNITY OF RESULTS OF INVESTIGATIONS ! Once it becomes clear that cheating is not tolerated then it is less likely to happen.
7) any wrong doings within ccp / devs/ gms should be dealt with accordingly, they should be sacked / be removed from their positions no matter how small the offence - an offence is an offense
Froggy
p.s. if the boot was on the other foot those in bob would respond in the same way as anyone else had regarding the situation if this was another alliance .....
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:10:00 -
[857]
Quote: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
as u can see from those private forums, they knew he was a dev and he GAVE it to them, not to mention the account sharing on mass scale
Don't troll -Eldo ([email protected])
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:10:00 -
[858]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 10/02/2007 02:07:07 We have this ...
Quote: We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
You can't tell us what was done against the EULA by the banned whistle blower ...
Yet apparent isk/ebay/account/gtc/macro etc things are not banned or are banned when the mood suits?
Could there possibly be a worse PR move?
Train Social to lvl 5. -AS |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:10:00 -
[859]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 01:16:43
Quote: 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
maybe not but the money made from them would have been.
how do we know thats all the bpos? aparently there were 10
how do we even know there the actual bpos? surely you dont spawn crap t2 bpos when u could spawn the good ones
1. I can rat solo in 0.0 and make 30-50million ISK an hour.
BoB has a couple thousand members. They have LOTS of 0.0 space. They have plexes, and plexes can be very lucrative. They even have NPCs they could mission ***** for.
If 2000 BoB go grind ISK for 5 hours, and each make half as much as me, you're still looking at 15-25million ISK, times 5, times 2000
That's 150 BILLION ISK at the least.
Now imagine those 2000 people in Barges and BSes, mining for 5 hours. You now have the minerals for your next couple hundred ships.
People don't believe that BPO list because all they think about is ISK. However, BoB, and every other alliance, does not need more ISK, they need assets. you don't fly fleets of HACs into a battle. You fly fleets of BC and BS, armed to snipe, or do as much DPS as possible. Look at those BPOS.
Sniping, and heavy DPS.
I have no problem believing t20 when he says that those are the BPOs in question. I bet ASCN, if it could've pooled the wallets of every member, would've been in the trillions, if not tens of trillions, of ISK. A major alliance could make more ISK or mine more minerals in a week, than we could in a year, if not longer. You have empire mission runners who make billions, what do you think the 0.0 alliance NPCers/plexers/mission runners make? 0.0 rewards are insane compared to empire. Pirate factions give out pirate implants as well. The standard implant markets might be crashing, but the pirate implant market is quite lucrative.
Shoqui, my point is, the BPOs listed, ARE the 'good' BPOs for an alliance as a whole.
The more I read about these events, and think about them, the more I come to see t20 and Hellmar's explainations as valid and truthful. They are not what a lot of people want to hear, and many people are demanding things that when they calm down, will realize are things that not only will never be released, but would destroy CCP if they did release it.
Come on, releasing private information and violating their own rules? The backlash from such a thing can destroy a company overnight.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Arthur Miller
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:11:00 -
[860]
Originally by: Mysticaa Unfortunatly CCP you have dug yourself into a very deep hole. From which there may be no climbing out. No matter what you do there will now always be an element of doubt in what you say, myself included. You could say you fired T20 and then just have him go by another name. And we would probably never be the wiser.
If I were in your position I would take these steps immediatly before the community loses any more faith in you and your game.
1. Fire T20 - This should have occurred as soon as you found the problem.
2. Hire an independent firm to confirm or deny that all allegations have been delt with. Let them verify that there is not a bigger pattern of corruption.
3. Remove all Dev run characters from the live server. Sorry fellas but power corupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.
4. Disolve BoB - Although there may be some honest corps in the alliance there is no way to verify that the advances BoB has made are not because of the tainted actions.
5. Ban all of the BoB directors. Account sharing is against the EULA plain and simple. If you do not enforce it you are only opening your self up to larger problems.
Although these actions will help reduce the amount of distrust that has quickly been established you will face a long road before all the members of this community trust you again. Lets hope that EvE survives.
Thats a tad dramatic. 1 and 2 are possibilities, but there's no reason for the rest. |
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Aspez
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:12:00 -
[861]
WOW!!!
So a GM gets caught cheating and is dismissed from employment. A DEV gets caught cheating and is spanked.
AND you leave all the BPOs he spawned IN GAME AND this happened LAST YEAR?!?!?!??
This is either the biggest BS ever contrived and this is just using T20 as a scapegoat since you already punished him or you really do think the playerbase is this stupid.....
The incompetence is staggering.
Come clean now.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:12:00 -
[862]
I am beyond flabberghasted.
I am amazed that it took CCP THIS long for an investigation they already CONCLUDING IN THE ******* SUMMER.
As far as CCP's answers about Kugut's banning goes: BS. Anything that Kugut did there is evidence that BoB members did teh same thing yet I don't see any of them banned.
Kugut gave away RL info on a dev - bannable Sir Molle gave away RL info on Kugut - bannable
Kugut 'hacked' BoB's message board (not necessarily illegal where he lives) - bannable BoB players regularly 'pretext' to gain admission to enemy message board (pretexting IS illegal in most areas) - bannable
Kugut supposedly broke EULA rules - bannable BoB's Cynonet account sharing--SOMETHING YOUR ******** DEV t20 KNEW ABOUT--certainly breaks the EULA - bannable
Seriously, why *SHOULD* anyone have taken this matter directly to CCP? You already did your bull**** 'investigation' (wink wink nod nod) 5 or so ******* months ago and merely swept it under the carpet.
The best part is that is the T H I R D time your company has been caught cheating at its own game.
Wow, just wow.
For every (non)action there is are reactions. I certainly hope you're not amazed by all the negative publicity, bad feelings and canceled accounts.
=======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:12:00 -
[863]
Originally by: Stede Bonnet
Originally by: Tab'Fren
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
No, but you can do something to make it right. Saying your sorry your employee was cheating your customers isn't enough.
So what is enough? What can they do that will change everything thing thats happened?
Do you really want them to roll back TQ 6 months? Would that make you feel better? We can relive the whole bob/ascn war again!
Newp, I sure as hell dont want to lose 6 months of training any more than anyone else does (not to mention any new players/chars in the last 6 months.)
Just because it's hard to estimate the cost, doesn't mean you shouldn't.
"I'm sorry, Mr. Kennedy. We couldn't possibly consider going to the moon; it's too much maths."
I have been cheated. Instead of punishing the parties involved or providing restition, CCP is simply saying "we'll do better in the future."
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IroN HiDE
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:13:00 -
[864]
Originally by: Vinifera I appreciate t20's apology
how much wasnt caught??!?! thats the main question that needs to be looked at. Its one thing to give an apology for stuff your caught doing and another thing to give up everything.
but we will never know that and that is why im going to focus on other games
or just |
Grash Freedom
Gallente MAZA Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:13:00 -
[865]
Edited by: Grash Freedom on 10/02/2007 02:10:18
To those that say fire t20 quote: From a crazy man that walked on the earth 2007 years ago
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
As for the rest, well CCP do your job you have a lot of banning to do
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:13:00 -
[866]
Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 10/02/2007 02:10:29 Heres a novel thought, why dont all the Altss and 2nd chars stop posting the same crap over and over again for a start.
Then could we have a reasoned and polite conversation about the way to solve this. Sorry but after wading through 20 plus pages (make that 30 now) of the same posturing from obviously bitter people it gets very wearing.
1. CCp should tell us how many folks in the company play eve and give us a break down of who is roughly in what. I dont want names and addresses, just a figure.
2. Take there bpos back off bob and stick em back on the lotto. Hell just make t2 bpos available on the market.
3. Lets have a look at a/c sharing and allegations of exploiting. Be sure to include both Bob and its opponents. Look at deliberate node crashing and log on/offs by certain alliances. Look at convo spamming and can spamming, look at shuttles full of bms to make lag.
4. Stop the plex whoring and isk selling. Maybe even stop the GTC because that cant be good for the game either tbh.
As for T20 hes been caught with his hand in the cookie jar apparently. Hes gonan lose his char in game and chances are he wont be around ccp for much longer. Take a deep breath and just get a grip ffs. After all its just a game, he may have had a lapse, but i know hes not the only person playing to have used possibly "unethical" ways to get disered results.
After all that yer still not happy, maybe its time u did go play another game.. that or find a life ourtside Eve, remember , its not real. Its a game.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:14:00 -
[867]
Originally by: Kerushi
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Archbishop
- Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
Where Kugutsumen lives, there is no law against it. If there is no law, he can't break it. Invalid reason for banning, in that case.
it is with the eula he agrees with every time he logson on wich u can be banned
If the EULA states that you shall not break local laws, and there is no local law, then by reasoning it stands that the local law cannot be broken. Point moot.
The only thing I could find in the EULA that could explain his banning was the whole "we reserve the right to ban anyone, at anytime, for no reason given" clause.
If there were other violations, why did it take a few days between the delivering-of-information to the actual bannings? He violated the EULA/TOS didn't he, that means he should've been banned immediately, not 3 or 4 days later.
If his only EULA/TOS violation was the posting of real-life information, then SirMolle should be out on his ass as well, since he did post Kugutsumen's personal information, only to quickly edit it a bit later. But it was up long enough for people to see.
So if Kugutsumen stays banned, SirMolle should be banned as well.
Please see the Forum Rules regarding signatures -Eldo ([email protected])
The content was EVE related, thank you.
[cent |
Ivana Teetoobeepio
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:14:00 -
[868]
What a joke.
Allowing t20 to keep his job after an act like this that has: * threatened the entire company - I'm sure that I am not the only considering closing my multiple accounts. * serioulsy damaged the reputation of CCP * greatly upset the community that has been very loyal in championing Eve in other forums
Shows extreme lack of respect for everybody who has played by the rules - players and honest devs alike.
I'm sure that many people have created additional accounts at RL expenses to train R&D characters in the hope of getting a shot at the joke that has always been the T2 lottery. Will these dedicted alts be provided with a refund since they are basically dead in the water.
(<----- yes, this is my R&D research alt)
Shame on you t20. You had the respect of everybody but you blew it. Even if you have been allowed to keep your job, I don't see how you could walk through the office and look people in the eye knowing the damage that you have caused. Some people that get caught breaking rules and embarassing their employer have the good manners to resign.
Poor show CCP.
So, rant over. Who wants my stuff (PS there arent any bloody T2 bpos in my hangar)
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:14:00 -
[869]
Kieron, what about sir molle not getting banned for revealing rl info on a player on the forums??????? And are you investigating the account sharing cynonet?
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:15:00 -
[870]
Originally by: Aspez WOW!!!
So a GM gets caught cheating and is dismissed from employment. A DEV gets caught cheating and is spanked.
AND you leave all the BPOs he spawned IN GAME AND this happened LAST YEAR?!?!?!??
This is either the biggest BS ever contrived and this is just using T20 as a scapegoat since you already punished him or you really do think the playerbase is this stupid.....
The incompetence is staggering.
Come clean now.
the stupid part has been proven countless times by now except a few
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Stede Bonnet
Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:16:00 -
[871]
Originally by: Sephiraa
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar
Devs have responded
Originally by: Kieron
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
That proof however exists. Do you want it? Would you act on it if you did? Or, is this more of the head in the sand coverupcoverupcoverup hope the issue goes away routine?
Band of Devs indeed.
What about T20 witnessing, taking part in, if not outright PLANNING, the BoB cynonet account sharing? Funny how you continue to ignore the most pointed and relevant issues.
The onyl proof they can use is stuff said in game, or at ccp functions, otherwise it would be open to tampering. _______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered.
SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA! |
Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:24:00 -
[872]
Originally by: Stede Bonnet The onyl proof they can use is stuff said in game, or at ccp functions, otherwise it would be open to tampering.
Do you work at a company with an internet connection? If those messages were sent from a company computer, they can track it and read it/verify it.
Kieron, I noticed you ignored basically ALL of my questions which have been quoted 5 or 6 times now, so you should have no trouble finding them. Could please answer them publically? tia It shouldn't be challenging for you to discover widespread account sharing at an alliance level. Your people do know how to use EYE PEAS, right?
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:24:00 -
[873]
Originally by: Arthur Miller
Thats a tad dramatic. 1 and 2 are possibilities, but there's no reason for the rest.
Ok let me justify 3,4,5 for you then.
3. Remove all Dev run characters from the live server. Without removing them there will always be a level of suspision that the Dev's are giving information to whatever corp they may belong too. CCP can not afford to have any level of doubt about thier neutrality in the game.
4. Disolve BoB - As long as BoB exsist there will be angry players who believe BoB got to their power by using information and items from Dev's. If the honest corps who make up BoB are as strong as they appear they could regroup from this action.
5. Ban all of the BoB directors.If the allegations of account sharing is true this is a violation of the EULA and should be handled as describe in such. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Vandee Yarr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:25:00 -
[874]
CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
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Raul Khan
Minmatar Raul Khan Venu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:26:00 -
[875]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a
Originally by: Mysticaa Unfortunatly CCP you have dug yourself into a very deep hole. From which there may be no climbing out. No matter what you do there will now always be an element of doubt in what you say, myself included. You could say you fired T20 and then just have him go by another name. And we would probably never be the wiser.
If I were in your position I would take these steps immediatly before the community loses any more faith in you and your game.
1. Fire T20 - This should have occurred as soon as you found the problem.
2. Hire an independent firm to confirm or deny that all allegations have been delt with. Let them verify that there is not a bigger pattern of corruption.
3. Remove all Dev run characters from the live server. Sorry fellas but power corupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.
4. Disolve BoB - Although there may be some honest corps in the alliance there is no way to verify that the advances BoB has made are not because of the tainted actions.
5. Ban all of the BoB directors. Account sharing is against the EULA plain and simple. If you do not enforce it you are only opening your self up to larger problems.
Although these actions will help reduce the amount of distrust that has quickly been established you will face a long road before all the members of this community trust you again. Lets hope that EvE survives.
No, no no no and... No.
I agree with everything here. You cheated every player in eve T20, and you CCP, for covering everything up. Only in the face of a third party did you fess up, and then only half-a****.
Bob timely "node crashes" what the *** are those? Bob winning every single PvP tourney... You think they had inside intel on the other team? Bob unstoppable capital fleets being led by T20... Bob directors sharing accounts bob taking advantage of the system BOB getting multi-billion dollar handouts from GAME DEVELOPERS!!!!!
take every Dev out of Bob. Now. and take those cheating ************** back to where they were before the corruption
makes me ************ sick
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:27:00 -
[876]
Originally by: Vandee Yarr CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
who says he was punished? every thing said and done i can personally just conclude is that he was asked to be the scape goat
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:27:00 -
[877]
Originally by: Vandee Yarr CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
Unless t20 is just a sacrafical lamb. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:29:00 -
[878]
to all these bob whiners
this isn`t about bob, this affects every single alliance and prolly some alliance-less corps if they have devs/gms/isd in them abusing the system and eula
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NoHup
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:31:00 -
[879]
If this stuff has already been said sorry, but I am not going to read all 30 pages...
IMO this is just a sweep up action. Kieron's statements in his answers lead me to believe that we are to a point where CCP is unwilling to move further.
The "usual" action for such an instance of corruption within CCP is termination (as stated by Hellmar in his blog). According to Keiron that wouldn't be "fair" since T20 has already been punished for this matter. Frankly if the standard punishment is termination then T20 has not been punished, he has been scolded and forgiven by CCP. I know its harsh and I know I don't know T20 nor the punishment he received. However if I manipulated the mechanics of my job for personal gain for myself or friends (yes, I know it is a virtual gain but last time I checked it was real money coming out of my account to play this game) I would be terminated. Period. If I were one of the previous employees that received the "usual" penalty you better believe I would be coming back with a wrongful termination lawsuit in hand based on this situation...
As for the benefits of the BPOs (yes I know some of you think they arent worth much), Kieron stated that "there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed". So you are telling me there is no way whatsoever for CCP to reconcile how many items have been inserted into a persistent gaming realm via the crafting mechanisms? I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe since would have to have that ability to determine if items were legitimate or dup'd. You would also have to have this item-level tracking to provide accurate inventories to your players. While you may not be able to tell the losses that these BPOs have ensued to other players, you most certainly can come up with a cost analysis of the items that were created. I.e. N items created * average item price = PENALTY. It is then a matter of how to assess this penalty, but dont go about telling us you cant figure out how to determine the value of these BPOs!
This is a very disconcerting matter and as a developer myself all I can do is shake my head. I enjoy playing this game, and I dont see that changing any time soon. However I do want to see a stronger follow up on some of the other allegations, especially the one about a GM scouting systems for BoB. Kieron your answers in your separate thread would be appreciated. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 02:32:00 -
[880]
Originally by: Jelan You know I only ever post into the recruitment thread as a rule, can't stand forums personnally... However i feel moved by this, I will simply say;
A) Our whistle blower made this a fairer place so re-instate him
B) You will do what you want unless enough people protest
C)T20 can i have your stuff, or will you be transferring it to another character?
The whistle blower was attempting to blackmail people over something that happened during the summer, and has already been dealt with.
This incident did not happen a week ago...
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Knerf
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:32:00 -
[881]
Originally by: kieron Quote:Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs?
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
but on the account sharing and knowingly using info given to them from t20 is OK, or are you just gonna dance around that some more?
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:33:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle 2) I can't imagine those BPOs would swing any battles one way or another.
You can't see how CHEAP SABRES could possibly SWING BATTLES?
Are we even playing the same game?
I can't see how paying an extra couple million ISK for SABRES is going to break the Bank of BoB (BoBoB! ).
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Coasterbrian
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:33:00 -
[883]
My only question at this point in time: When is the issue of account sharing going to be resolved? Alliances share accounts around in order to keep high value ships online for a large part of the day, and doing so is as much a violation of the EULA as was committed by one particularly prominent individual in the community.
In other words: CCP, when are you going to start enforcing all of your EULA equally, and banning the people that openly and blatantly share account details on a regular basis to gain an advantage?
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Cupertino
Castellum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:34:00 -
[884]
Dear CCP,
I've always been dubious about the consequences of developers playing Eve, and now I'm disgusted to find out that not only do you play at the highest levels of powerful alliances, but YOU ALSO CHEAT, and go unpunished when you get caught cheating.
This incident undermines Eve completely, and the resulting investigation (into events that you've known about for over 6 months!) is also pathetic - it looks to me like you assessed Kugutsumen's accusations and decided there was only one that we could prove, so you admitted to that and that only. You haven't changed anything about the position of developers in the game after this 'Revelation', nor have you significantly punished anybody involved (apart from the whistleblowers and the people who got into trouble posting about this issue on the forums).
When I first came to Eve, people would cite the passion and involvement of the developers as being one of the best things about this game. Nowadays, the management and development of Eve veers from amateurish to disinterested, to downright dishonest. As a result, I can't motivate myself to play any more, and I sadly find myself considering warping out of Eve permanently.
Dear T20,
What disappoints me most about your dishonesty is the contempt it shows for all the honest players in Eve. I pay my money, put in the hours, and try to be a good citizen of Eve. You sit in your office and basically, through your actions, say '**** that guy. I don't care about his honest efforts or how unfair my actions are on all the other subscribers like him - I'm going to cheat and give my friends an unfair advantage anyway'. That is why I find your actions so contemptible, and why I don't accept your apology.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:34:00 -
[885]
Originally by: NoHup If this stuff has already been said sorry, but I am not going to read all 30 pages...
IMO this is just a sweep up action. Kieron's statements in his answers lead me to believe that we are to a point where CCP is unwilling to move further.
The "usual" action for such an instance of corruption within CCP is termination (as stated by Hellmar in his blog).
This is clear; I concur.
But t20 isn't even really important. Maybe they need him to maintain some specific spaghetti code that only he understands; maybe they just can't find other employeees. Whatever.
t20 is not the sickness, he is just a symptom.
What this thread is about is getting CCP to confess, and then rectify, their blatant favouritism and selective enforcement of their own rules.
It's like pulling teeth, but we are getting somewhere, I think. Every week a new revelation.
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Ouroboron
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:35:00 -
[886]
You know what CCP? Do what you want.
I don't even care that you apparently refuse to right your wrongs, punish the people who severely broke the EULA, accepted a known DEV into their ranks, accepted illegal BPOs from a known DEV, let a known DEV create their account sharing cynonet, allowed a known DEV to lead their Capital fleet, as well as accpeting inside information from a known DEV to cheat at EVE at every turn. Seriously. I don't even care anymore.
The combined forces of most of 0.0 space are going to take all of the Band of Developer's space, and kick them back to Empire anyway, and all of your cheating DEVs, GMs, and ISD people can't stop us.
Just one of Remedial's kamikaze fighter pilots, dying for the Swarm. |
IroN HiDE
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:35:00 -
[887]
Originally by: Leilani Solaris Even if T20 did get the bpo's illigitimately i think he should keep his job. RL and EVE should always be keep apart. Firing him because of something in game and ruining his livelyhood is just harsh.
EVE IS HIS REAL LIFE... he messed with it ... TO BAD... C-YA!!! dont let the door hit you on the way out!!!!!!! |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:35:00 -
[888]
Can I have t20's stuff?
Half Assed Rhymage |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:35:00 -
[889]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Arthur Miller Kieron,
If the external evidence from Kgutsumen was enough to start this inquiry, are you considering his evidence of account sharing within RKK as well? It is known that the developer in RKK had access to the forums where account sharing was discussed about the BoB cynonet. Will investigations be done about the account sharing going on within that company? Thanks for your work so far, glad to see you are trying to fix things.
Thats non of your biz, considering if they said anything about that it would be a breach of privacy and that would cause a hell of alot mroe people to cancel then this will. I wouldnt trust my credit info with someone who breaks thier privacy policy because a horde of people on the forums have something against BoB, would you?
BoB butt smooch if I ever seen one...(high there BoB alt <waves>)
The character name is not the account name. So explain how exposing a banned character name, due to a violation of a rule, is a breach of privacy...
character name provides no personal or account info what-so-ever.
comparing it to credit card security and thinking people would quit over a character name being exposed for shame is just a major attempt to SPIN the topic and make it appear as not so bad .
CCP lost trust, corruption gave some an advantage, who gives a flying F who, the benefactors gained knowingly, and there is a rule for it...it just isn't enforced on some (proof is shown).
You are a muppet.
If one breach of the privacy policy is acceptable, why wouldnt other breaches be acceptable?
If you want to take down one alliance for dev "infos" why not take down the rest?
you have got to be kidding...
tsk tsk, you still have nothing of import to say so resort to insults...
info/assitance/bpo's/cheating....all to help his personal buddies in the alliance he was in...ya, that sure as heck sounds like something we all should forget (hi there BoB alt <waves>)
Instead of kissing cheeks, you should be demanding heads roll, unless your account is one that is in danger of being banned should CCP grow a pair, and regain some common sense.
Now stop spin-trolling.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:36:00 -
[890]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Jacob Majestic And for everyone wanting to give this event a pass, you have no idea how much damage can be caused by a little impropriety by CCP devs or GMs.
For example, did you know that we were supposed to have an entirely new pirate race now?
New ships, new gear, new faction items, new officers.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a new pirate faction with a compelling backstory in the new regions rather than those lame rogue drones that exist only to make you money off drone shards?
Wanna know why we don't have the new content?
A member of the event team (who shall remain nameless) leaked details of the new pirate faction to other members of a certain in-game alliance (which shall also remain nameless).
The new pirate faction was scrapped, wasting months of work on the part of the event team.
I will stab all you apologists in the face with truth.
Sounds like speculation, hearsay, and conspiracy, or do you have evidence to back this rather large claim?
Also, I kinda like the rogue drones out in the new areas, if done properly they could be quite interesting, and a breath of fresh air from yet another pirate faction.
Why bother? It has been adequately demonstrated that the only way to get CCP's attention is to spam the forums until you're tepidly acknowledged.
Then you have to go through the indignity of having five of your accounts banned as CCP frantically tries to shoot the messenger.
Seriously, why bother?
Because I'm calling your bluff.
And unless you broke rules/laws like Kugu did, you have nothing to fear from bringing your allegations to light.
If you are afraid of that, then evemail me the information.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:36:00 -
[891]
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Vandee Yarr CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
Unless t20 is just a sacrafical lamb.
Actually, we have been specifically been told by Kieron that CCPs "non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon discovery of serious misconduct" has in fact been negotiated down to... non-termination.
Can't be a sacrificial lamb when you are not being sacrificed. :)
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:36:00 -
[892]
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Vandee Yarr CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
Unless t20 is just a sacrafical lamb.
if there admitting this then there must be something they are trying desperatly to hide imo.... as someone was just saying on our ts , no company in there right mind would risk ruining there reputation by admiting something like this unless there was something else far more serious they want to hide.
damage limitation at in finest maybe? ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:39:00 -
[893]
Unban Kugutsumen. Hadn't he revealed this info the dev would still be in BoB happily exploiting. Kugu risked his characters and accounts, which is more than I'd have done.. having known what he did.
Risking 5 accounts which he spent a lot of time working on. Now that takes more guts than whole of BoB can muster. Nuff said.
EVE Online - Pirates |
Flicky G
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:40:00 -
[894]
This is clearly an emotive issue, and one which is nigh-on impossible to get to the bottom of.
Firstly, during my time in ASCN we laid traps for the devs in BoB. Not my place to say what they are - the relevant alliance reprasentaticves from the time have all the details. Lets just say, it smelt fishier than last weeks trout...
However, bearing in mind I work for a FTSE100 IT firm (as do many other people here)
- It's a sackable offence for me to say online, "I work for 'acme corp'". - Every action I make online via my employer is recorded.
Why is it any different at CCP?
Maybe you guys would like to come and play with the big boys?
Regards (get your house in order!)
Flicky
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Allen Miles
Caldari The Miles Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:40:00 -
[895]
sounds like ccp is just growing too fast and not putting in the proper security measures in place. when eve came out ccp was small and a very tight group. but putting 100+ employees in such a short period this was bound to happen IMO.
hopefully lesson is learned and employee audits are taken more often.
||M||
Add Your Images or Add Your Corp to the DB! |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:42:00 -
[896]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Archbishop
- Kugsman or whatever his name is did apparently hack an outside forum. If BOB wants to prosecute him for that they can. The EULA does specify "you will not break local laws" to affect the game. Although he revealed this incident to us he did break the EULA and his banning is justified (if very unpopular).
Where Kugutsumen lives, there is no law against it. If there is no law, he can't break it. Invalid reason for banning, in that case.
You agree to Icelandic Law as far as the EULA and TOS are concerned.
IF you ever want to sue CCP, you're flying to re-whatever to do it.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:43:00 -
[897]
Originally by: BustyBounty
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Vandee Yarr CCP doesn't have to punish t20 a second time. They just have to politely ask him to resign, something he should offer to do himself (but I guess he missed that lesson in Ethics 101).
Unless t20 is just a sacrafical lamb.
if there admitting this then there must be something they are trying desperatly to hide imo.... as someone was just saying on our ts , no company in there right mind would risk ruining there reputation by admiting something like this unless there was something else far more serious they want to hide.
damage limitation at in finest maybe?
keep going, keep going... spread the wisdom
this was my issue with the Harris interactive where ccp broke the LAW by giving out my contact information who was with their luck, a loophole in their eula an unathorized 3rd party and the only thing ppl did is whine "where`s my survey email..."
this case is still pending with the lawyers but i guess the issue is like a fish in the ocean with the ******up rule bending by everyone in the office who sees fit
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Arcticblue2
Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:43:00 -
[898]
Originally by: Popsikle what about the other alliances getting stuff for free, and insider info, why stop at just BoB?
Yes same apply for them as well, you know anyone that have benefited a dev like that ?
Oh and btw this is for everyone, I belive that most of us old timers knew very well that there where Dev's in BoB (or any other alliances for that matter) it is not that what is a problem but the fact that this one dev is misusing information and could quite possible have given BoB a unfair advantage... for this some heads in said alliance (and other alliances that also have benefited from such information) should roll... ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. |
Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:44:00 -
[899]
Hi Kieron,
There are allegations flying around the internet, in game, and spreading that CCP is banning players that post links to the Slashdot story, to these forums, and to other sites that are carrying this story and commentary about it on those sites.
Is this true? If so, is there a reason for trying to stop the free flow of information, or is there some clause in the EULA that is being violated in this transmission of links?
That does not seem right, IMHO. but I would like to know it from someone in charge, not read speculation on other sites.
Thanks.
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:46:00 -
[900]
Originally by: kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
I just wanted to let everyone know that they're on notice.
You see, if you were to look on a particular forum you'll be able to find the mail that Mr. K got from the GMs as to why he was banned.
Essentially, he was banned under the "we own you" clause.
Now go ahead and go about your happy little EVE-lives, knowing that if you uncover evidence of dodgy behavior (check out my sig!) you're sure to be banned.
You're playing our game, now.
We are omnipotence itself.
-dbp
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
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Telefishopolis
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:48:00 -
[901]
uh I'm late to the party here but I'm not sure I understand what Kieron is trying to say.
Kieron, are you actually saying that CCP knew about this whole thing over the summer, and didn't take action because you guys were on vacation?
Vacation?
And then when you got back from sunning yourselves, you just sorta forgot about it? It totally slipped your mind that a lead developer was also the capital ship commander of one of the largest player alliances in the game?
Is T20 really the problem here? Was the senior staff at CCP really complicit in all of this for 6 months? What sort of punishment did you give T20? Why did you allow him to continue his involvement with BoB?
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:49:00 -
[902]
Originally by: Sephiraa
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar
Devs have responded
My position is that this third response is still wholly insufficient. I adress each point raised by Kieron, and some of the many points he conveniently chooses to omit.
Originally by: Kieron
Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics.
Perhaps you should make an exception, in these exceptional circumstances. I'm sure you can guess what it looks like from where I'm standing: This guy has caused alot of trouble for the highest powers that be in EVE, and as it turns out he was absolutely right to, and now he is being punished for it.
Originally by: Kieron
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct.
So you dealt with the incident at the time but you didn't once think it might be a good idea to take those bpos back? Very very strange.
Originally by: Kieron
but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
Yes it would be unfair, which is why t20 is taking all the heat for this, because he effectively immune from prosecution in this matter. Therefore other people involved can get away scott free. I'm surprised it took you a week to come up with this though.
Originally by: Kieron
We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
I don't see your logic: there is no way to see what exact amount of wealth has been gained by fraudulent activity, therefore you should do absolutely nothing.
Absolute rubbish. How about you put together a low estimate and fine the corporation involved. They are still getting off very lightly.
Originally by: Kieron
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained.
Ok fair enough you may not have direct proof of this, you might notice however the total lack of surprise that reikoku members show when (supposedly finding out for the first time) that t20 the dev is amongst their midst.
You do also have various other evidence which is almost a sealed case of systematic and deliberate EULA violation, for which i might remind you, you have been quite happy to ban other players. WHy are you not looking into this further Kieron?
Not only do the admitted crimes themselves suggest favouritism to BoB, the whole way you have conducted this investigation suggests favouritism toward them too.
By the way you have approached this investigation, you have removed the single most important thing in any online game: Trust. From this point on nothing significant can be achieved in this game without a shadow of doubt lurking behind it. If you want to remedy this I sugest you begin by banning those accounts guilty of repeated and deliberate EULA violation. I wouldn't be surprised if those guilty accounts include a few more devs, who are pretty desperate to keep their head under the parapet on this one. Maybe even you yourself Kieron.
If you really want to wash the slate clean, I suggest you bring in some kind of external investigation, as most people are not feeling very trusting towards your organisation right now. That may not be feasible for many reasons, but it would be an effective move both to quell the unrest amoongst your playerbase, and to salvage your reputation in the wider world.
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Violent Jake
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:50:00 -
[903]
A BPO is an investment. So you use the BPO to make capital, and use that capital to make more capital, and use that capital to make more. So now, long after the fact, you give up the BPOs.
By now they've paid for themselves exponentially. Giving them back costs a fraction of the money you, your corp, and BoB have made off of them. CCP need to see to it that all of the residual money and assets are removed from the game.
You should be ashamed, and CCP needs to do a hell of a lot more than simply remove the BPOs.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:50:00 -
[904]
funny, on "that" site, the number grows to 39, now that`s something to coverup
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:51:00 -
[905]
seems that kieron has gone to bed or MIA like last time. How about you helmar, got an anser to the latest questions.
1.) Sirmolle revealing rl info 2.) bobs account sharing cynonet 3.) you new about the bpo's since summer!?!?! and did nothing but let bob prosper of them!?
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Femfatally
INTAKI UNION
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:52:00 -
[906]
don't discuse GM actions??? ok.. i guess we will just pack up and not talk about the the coruption and just go back to paying to play in a game you have rigged for yourselves.
So, my question is if he ended up with the amo BPO's who got the t2 ship bpo's?
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Cor'len
Inquest
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:52:00 -
[907]
Oh, stop being so high and allmighty, people.
CCP actually consists of humans, and we all know that those are "mildly" buggy. (Now there's something to whine about when it comes to patches!) While I haven't been wearing my tinfoil hat and listening in on the "OMG CONSPIRACY!" thread(s?), I know this:
* I trust CCP as much as I trusted them before I learned of this * I trust BoB about as far as a bald person's hair reaches * I find all the petty squabbles and "OMG h4xxorz!"-ing in this thread to be quite distasteful.
I've never, ever, been a fan of any "one strike and you're out" rules. I find them to be a childish way to mete out a generic punishment in order to avoid having to think about it for too long. Subsequently, I'm terrifically glad that T20 isn't getting the south-end treatment (besides, what'd I do without the DB exports?), and hope that the community can find a nice quiet place to put their tinfoil hats and come to terms with reality.
As the reality is this - CCP screwed up. Yet again. I still love them, as it makes them less of a faceless corporate monstrosity, and I commend their (albeit belated) honesty.
As for the people suggesting that BoB is violating everything from their mother to the TOS - I probably have to agree. Skills are great, but the success of BoB is quite improbable. In addition to my distinct lack of love for them (I miss Fountain... ), having them dissolved would make me so happy. But that's a selfish wish. OK, so probably not, seeing how many of the community that seem to share it. ;)
That's my two billion ISK worth of time (which is money).
-Cor'len |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:54:00 -
[908]
Originally by: Prydeless seems that kieron has gone to bed or MIA like last time. How about you helmar, got an anser to the latest questions.
1.) Sirmolle revealing rl info 2.) bobs account sharing cynonet 3.) you new about the bpo's since summer!?!?! and did nothing but let bob prosper of them!?
they allways dissapear when they get direct questions that can`t be answerd without a conferrence for the "right" reply
they don`t even bother respond to simple stuff or atleast an appology with a lawsuit pending on their heads
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Grash Freedom
Gallente MAZA Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:54:00 -
[909]
Originally by: Nev Clavain
GOOD STUFF....
I vote for you :P
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:00:00 -
[910]
This is going south quickly, at first we think we are going to get answered then BOOM STONEWALL, HIDE FROM THE QUESTIONS!
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Cipher7
Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:01:00 -
[911]
Kug is being punished for being a whistleblower. How many other devs are abusing theit positions that you don't want us to know about?
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:01:00 -
[912]
Edited by: Kerushi on 10/02/2007 02:58:04
Originally by: Prydeless This is going south quickly, at first we think we are going to get answered then BOOM STONEWALL, HIDE FROM THE QUESTIONS!
not south, we`re getting to the truth now
truth hurts remember
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:01:00 -
[913]
Originally by: matty01
Originally by: DuckQuack Question Kieron
Quote: The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:
if you discovered this in the summer, and dealt with it then, why are these first being returned now?
and would this have been dealt with had the bob forums not been made public?
i'm thinking no
You do realize this was dealt with back in the summer right?
t20 was not found out and punished during these past few days.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Violent Jake
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:03:00 -
[914]
Edited by: Violent Jake on 10/02/2007 03:00:12
Originally by: Violent Jake A BPO is an investment. So you use the BPO to make capital, and use that capital to make more capital, and use that capital to make more. So now, long after the fact, you give up the BPOs.
By now they've paid for themselves exponentially. Giving them back costs a fraction of the money you, your corp, and BoB have made off of them. CCP need to see to it that all of the residual money and assets are removed from the game.
You should be ashamed, and CCP needs to do a hell of a lot more than simply remove the BPOs.
Nevermind. I just saw your answer to this: You have no intention of trying to correct the problem, and you are hoping that the community will think that removing the BPOs will mitigate the damage that has been done.
Anyone who's passed high school economics can see you have done nothing.
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Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar Equilibrium Inc. Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:03:00 -
[915]
Might I remind you who are demanding more answears from the devs that the time in Iceland is 2:58 am at the time of writing this, that's the time when most people are in bed as I really really should be. Just a quick note. However I will watch the dev response thread with interest.
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Faramare
Foul Rodent
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:05:00 -
[916]
To be honest, I really didn't care to read whole thread....
Are the developers going to do something about the FACT that Band of Brothers have benefited from those BPO's AND knowledge acquired from the dev in their ranks?
Thing is, that we all want fair playground. And the playground ain't fair as long as one side is getting unfair advantage.
So it is.
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:06:00 -
[917]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
You do realize this was dealt with back in the summer right?
t20 was not found out and punished during these past few days.
You do realise that it was 'dealt with' by slapping t20 on the wrist, and leaving BoB to profit from their ill-gotten gains? It stinks.
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Milesofun
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:07:00 -
[918]
Wow i got to admit CCP covered up the crimes, and a use the term in it's legal defination, for 6 month's or longer, and t20 Still has his job. When you sold the company in it's merger or whatever you did with White Wolf did you tell them you had a dev rigging the lottery and exposing them to a civil lawsuit? It's pretty simple fire him and any dev/gm who used their postion to cover this mess up. Your corp policy is pretty clear this is grounds for termination but not ifit's BoB so please amend your corp policy to include this exception. and whats WhiteWolfs postion on internal gaming fixing? Since they sell lots of card based games, i bet they are not to happy atm. good luck keeping t20. If you don't hammer all parties hard on this I'll give my money to a rl corp that will treat it's customers fairly |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:07:00 -
[919]
Originally by: Faramare To be honest, I really didn't care to read whole thread....
Are the developers going to do something about the FACT that Band of Brothers have benefited from those BPO's AND knowledge acquired from the dev in their ranks?
Thing is, that we all want fair playground. And the playground ain't fair as long as one side is getting unfair advantage.
So it is.
Originally by: Kieron We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
nuff said
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Faramare
Foul Rodent
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:08:00 -
[920]
Ok, tahank you for bringin that reply back. While it does NOT satisy me, it does answer me.
I will be closing my all (6) accounts now.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:08:00 -
[921]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
I just wanted to let everyone know that they're on notice.
You see, if you were to look on a particular forum you'll be able to find the mail that Mr. K got from the GMs as to why he was banned.
Essentially, he was banned under the "we own you" clause.
Now go ahead and go about your happy little EVE-lives, knowing that if you uncover evidence of dodgy behavior (check out my sig!) you're sure to be banned.
You're playing our game, now.
We are omnipotence itself.
-dbp
And as we all know, emails cannot be doctored.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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ExcellciuM
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:08:00 -
[922]
what's the point in asking questions, its like walking up to the geroge bush and asking him what next years war is about oil or nukes, you'll never get a straight reply, just endless circles of lies and *snips* instead of answers
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Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:08:00 -
[923]
Utterly disgusted and thoroughly disappointed.
Thanks also for making me look like an utter fool in supporting you after your first (non)announcement. You definitely won't see me doing that ever again.
And now for some questions :
- If you were aware of wrongdoings last summer how come the BPOs remained in-game until now?
- Along the same lines, how come all his characters weren't recycled last summer? What the ****?
- What is the punishment you mention that t20 received in lieu of termination of employment? I want details, please.
- I expect the beneficiaries (corp, alliance) to be penalized one way or another - if you could put isk-dupers or other exploiters' wallets into the red, I'm sure something can be done.
Zero sympathy on my end for t20. Cheating is lame, cheating at something you're expected to manage and betraying the trust of your employers and customers in the process is even worse. Way to go, dude. Employee of the month, no doubt.
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Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:09:00 -
[924]
Originally by: Prydeless This is going south quickly, at first we think we are going to get answered then BOOM STONEWALL, HIDE FROM THE QUESTIONS!
Actually we have gotten LOTS of answers to our questions:
1) A genuine bonafide really for real CCP employed Game Developer did get caught cheating, and CCP admits it.
2) CCP also admits that they, in direct contradiction to their publicly stated policy, have not fired said dev.
3) CCP thinks that BoB, and specifically the BoB leadership, is entirely, completely, hundred percent innocent of all wrongdoing in this, and will not be punished in any way, shape or form, except for the loss of the income of 6 BPOS that they got for free through T20s cheating.
4) CCP thinks Kugutsemens ban is justified, and will not reinstate his accounts.
See? Lots of answers. Admittedly, none of those answers are things we want to hear, or even understand, but they ARE answers.
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:11:00 -
[925]
Originally by: Reverend Revelator
Originally by: Prydeless This is going south quickly, at first we think we are going to get answered then BOOM STONEWALL, HIDE FROM THE QUESTIONS!
Actually we have gotten LOTS of answers to our questions:
1) A genuine bonafide really for real CCP employed Game Developer did get caught cheating, and CCP admits it.
2) CCP also admits that they, in direct contradiction to their publicly stated policy, have not fired said dev.
3) CCP thinks that BoB, and specifically the BoB leadership, is entirely, completely, hundred percent innocent of all wrongdoing in this, and will not be punished in any way, shape or form, except for the loss of the income of 6 BPOS that they got for free through T20s cheating.
4) CCP thinks Kugutsemens ban is justified, and will not reinstate his accounts.
See? Lots of answers. Admittedly, none of those answers are things we want to hear, or even understand, but they ARE answers.
if i`d work at ccp, i`d hire u on the spot
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medecau
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:11:00 -
[926]
the reason why they are not going to answer some very persistent questions is that "we can not handle the truth"...
omg its past 3am. time to sleep over this, subs already suspended because of other game reasons... this is really gonna weigh on the decision. *snip* Please do not discuss GM actions. Email us if you have questions -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:12:00 -
[927]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And as we all know, emails cannot be doctored.
Everything Kugutsumen has posted so far has turned out as
1) confirmed truth; or 2) completely ignored by CCP; or 3) "we, uh, don't have logs going back that far! we dunno! it is a mystery!"
Nothing he has posted has been shown to be false. Nothing at all.
I don't like his methods either, especially since he used to torture us with them. But I trust anything he says way before I would trust anything CCP says, at this point.
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The Aggressor
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:12:00 -
[928]
To add to all this *Shaite* is: - person who started this purification should not be banned, but glorified. - persons/alliances/corporations shamed should be named publicly - this all is much larger than playerbase at the moment, I hope CCP understands that ... for their business senses..
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laidron
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:14:00 -
[929]
some cheaters dev ...... pfffff
sad.......
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Heiken Wimast
Amarr Clan LoKi Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:14:00 -
[930]
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Wow.
T20 I know it must not have been easy to write that blog, and I know you must be feeling terrible right now, but I think admitting what happened is good for the game and good for you. You have my respect for that.
CCP - We need to know the answers to the following questions because your answers thus far have been inadequate:
1. How many CCP employees play EvE?
2. How many are in 0.0 allinaces?
3. What is the distribution of main accounts among CCP employees? (In other words are their 20 devs in BoB and 1 alt in LV?)
4. How will you assure us that something like this NEVER happens again?
5. What about the numerous other allegations (including account sharing and other EULA violations)?
In addition:
All dev characters must leave any 0.0 alliance now.
QFT
t20 is weak person and he became a PET under brothers. Weakness is our worst enemy now. Kung proven 1 of the cheats, so what would we think about past? So basicly a dev has a tool about that can create/spawn/destroy = iwin button, but players captured that iwin button. Im really wondering about how many times that iwin button pressed by cheaters in past? Reason doesnt mattter, cheats for "WEAK & COWARD" persons. I hope CCP can resolve this situation and investigate, how we can sure about no1 is using that "iwin" button?.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:14:00 -
[931]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
I just wanted to let everyone know that they're on notice.
You see, if you were to look on a particular forum you'll be able to find the mail that Mr. K got from the GMs as to why he was banned.
Essentially, he was banned under the "we own you" clause.
Now go ahead and go about your happy little EVE-lives, knowing that if you uncover evidence of dodgy behavior (check out my sig!) you're sure to be banned.
You're playing our game, now.
We are omnipotence itself.
-dbp
And as we all know, emails cannot be doctored.
Your suggestion is correct, emails can be doctored.
However, I have no reason to lie. Furthermore, if GM actions were handled with any sense of transparency I could both post the contents of the email and have the contents of that email independently authenticated.
Sadly, none of that is possible.
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:14:00 -
[932]
Originally by: Faramare Ok, tahank you for bringin that reply back. While it does NOT satisy me, it does answer me.
I will be closing my all (6) accounts now.
Lol, yeah, sure buddy.
Anyone enough of an addict to have 6 accounts (?!) isn't quitting them all over this.
But on the off chance you do, can I have your stuff?
And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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heysupport
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:15:00 -
[933]
Why are you not banning BoB leadership? This should be done soon so as not to tip the balance in the upcoming war in which it's a known fact that cynonet and nodecrash.net are still in operation?
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RevanTK421
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:16:00 -
[934]
Edited by: RevanTK421 on 10/02/2007 03:14:33 The hypocrisies in this whole thing are amazing. I can almost guarantee you if you were caught hacking the game and you aren't in BoD you got banned. If you openly admitted on eve-o you hacked (not even exploited) you would be banned. We've now found out that CCP 100% knew that various partys in BoD were and had been profiting from gm hacking for many months and not only did nothing about it, covered it up and let it continue...
I know many incidences in eve were GM's have found out about players exploiting much less then this and have gone through the game and erased every last ISK even remotely connected to the incidents with only the slightest background check what so ever, waiting for months many times before returning property/isk that was wrongly taken. I don't think BoD should be punished for unknowingly using duped BPO's but idea that CCP did nothing about them just to save face speaks greatly of an enormous problem in CCP's infrastructure. And the attempts by CCP to pretend they knew nothing about it and banning/muting any one that had any proof to the contrary until the evidence was too overwhelming to deny speaks volumes towards how much that policy has improved....
I actually want to give kudos to t20 for cheating so blatantly that CCP was exposed. But I don't believe a word of what you said about t2 BPO's being all you did. You would risk your job, your livelihood, and an entire business's livelihood to make t2 BPOS, something that is easily tracked, but he must not have been too worried about that at the time (Hmm i wonder why??).... But i mean he would never do something so drastic as give an alliance an unfair advantage....
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jeNK
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:17:00 -
[935]
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
That's crap. Handing over the t2 BPO's is a new act of misconduct, the first act of misconduct was providing information he should not have provided.
T20, consider this nothing more than a slap on the wrist. You've been let of the hook, very lightly.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:17:00 -
[936]
Originally by: The Assyrian
Originally by: Faramare Ok, tahank you for bringin that reply back. While it does NOT satisy me, it does answer me.
I will be closing my all (6) accounts now.
Lol, yeah, sure buddy.
Anyone enough of an addict to have 6 accounts (?!) isn't quitting them all over this.
But on the off chance you do, can I have your stuff?
And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Why bother keeping accounts open?
Remember, we're playing BoD's game now.
Or was that BoB?
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:17:00 -
[937]
Jacob Majestic,
that polaris frig u have linked in ur bio, is, if i`m not mistaken, an senior polaris frigate
could be wrong tho
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:18:00 -
[938]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 10/02/2007 03:16:03
Originally by: Nev Clavain
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
You do realize this was dealt with back in the summer right?
t20 was not found out and punished during these past few days.
You do realise that it was 'dealt with' by slapping t20 on the wrist, and leaving BoB to profit from their ill-gotten gains? It stinks.
That's more than what has happened to a couple other groups that have cheated, and far more broadly, as I doubt t20 being BoB, or his actions, were common knowledge in their ranks.
edited because I managed to quote the wrong post.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Mjnari
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:18:00 -
[939]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: matty01
Originally by: DuckQuack Question Kieron
Quote: The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:
if you discovered this in the summer, and dealt with it then, why are these first being returned now?
and would this have been dealt with had the bob forums not been made public?
i'm thinking no
You do realize this was dealt with back in the summer right?
t20 was not found out and punished during these past few days.
Umm... (trying to follow your logic) so because it's past summer... and the person who released the story is/was a felon... we... shouldn't do anything else?
That is the most flagrant abuse of common sense I've ever seen. Do you vote with that brain?
CCP "dealt" with this issue last summer. The players only recently found out about what happened. The players were "30-pages-worth-of" not happy with CCP's response.
Ergo, CCP has not dealt with the issue.
------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi. |
Noumena
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:18:00 -
[940]
thank you...it takes a bigger man to admit his faults. my respect for ccp and ALL of its employees remain in the highest regard.
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Shardiss
JCI Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:19:00 -
[941]
I have a couple of questions for SirMolle, Blacklight, and Tholarim:
First, did the leadership of RKK level with you about what was going on when (or before) this whole issue boiled into public view?
If not, why are you still flying with them?
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Jester87
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:19:00 -
[942]
So basically your not gonna punish cheaters? lolz.
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Narooma Sung
Freelancing Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:20:00 -
[943]
Edited by: Narooma Sung on 10/02/2007 03:17:56 Dear CCP, First of all, thank-you for coming forward and making a statement on the issue of unethical behavior by employee(s) that are in the service of CCP.
I'm glad to see that action is taking place concerning the matter and that internal steps are/have been taken to keep this from happening again.
I agree and do understand that dev's should be allowed to play the game that they help create, so that they can gain a full understanding of the play experience, uncover any bugs or play issues. However, I feel strongly against the nature in which they are allowed to play.
Developers should not be allowed to be anonymous, nor should they be allowed to be involved at any high level player controlled corp or alliance. Period.
The temptation is just too great for some kind of intervention to take place and let's be honest, one dev was caught, but I'm sure others have also hand their hand in the cookie jar. (After all, more than likey the reason the dev in question is still around is because you can't fire the whole staff.)
I'm afraid the masses are not going to be happy unless someone's head rolls for this. Not that I necessarily agree with that, we are all human and have made bad choices in our lives. I believe in second chances.
However, since this matter was allowed to continue for an additional 6 to 8 months after the matter was first discovered, the in-game damage that was done to the paying customer base can not even be measured.
How does one go forward from here?
I've come back from a long absence to this. This is the only online game that I keep coming back to after having gone off and tried others along the way. But now I feel betrayed, backstabbed and genearlly frak'ed. I wasn't even given the pleasure of a kiss first.
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Iynara Maeral
Caldari JUDGE DREAD Inc. Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:20:00 -
[944]
That this was known about and nothing done is.. so, so disappointing. I've been playing for some three years now and up until now I've had -nothing- but respect for CCP and what they've done. That's going to take a while to return for much of us I think.
I sincerely hope that those responsible for the contemptable delay will think long and hard about the trust of the community they have betrayed and respect of the community they have sacrificed for the sake of convenience or saving face or whatever.
The corrupt dev is understandable, a faulty person it happens. The shameful hiding and skulking of the 'gods' at large is not.
I adore Eve and will likely continue to play it until it closes, gods forbid. But until CCP stops trying to hush the customers and fellow gamers they claim to love and instead fess up to their problems maturely and grow, I feel we have had taken from us much of what made this game great. An honorable company. ______________
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doshin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:21:00 -
[945]
CCP, do the right thing and reinstate Kugutsumen. I think it would go a long way in starting the CCP/customer healing.
Don't make me start freekugumitnick.com!
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:22:00 -
[946]
don`t forget the months of "waiting" for an investigation after alot of pressure by the players
an investigation that didn`t happen as it was allready "dealt" with so why tell every one to shutup and lock all threads if that supposed investigation alleady happend months ago?
buying time to forge an coverup in my view...
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:23:00 -
[947]
I can only assume that the reason that t20 wasnt fired in the summer was that then they had to tell us players what he had done. If they kept him on they could maybe get away with it. You should be ashamed , you let BoB have those BPOs for half a year just to cover your own asses. To me it looks like you tolerate cheating as long as the playerbase dont get to know about it. you'll never jump alone |
Heikke Ahtisaari
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:23:00 -
[948]
Yes CCP admitted that one dev misbehaved, yes they admitted that proprietary resources were used to the advantage of BoB, and yes they admitted that they did not respond adequately to the situation. However, the fact that CCP removed the stolen BPOs only three days ago -- well over six months after they discovered that the items were illegally acquired -- and admitted guilt only after overwhelming response from the eve community makes me question CCP's stated commitment to fairness and honesty. I would understand if CCP needed time to do an investigation to find out the facts, but by their own statements, they already knew what had been done. They did not make a disclosure when they initially found out about the BPOs and they did not come clean once the allegations surfaced. They put out statements saying that they needed time to investigate, even though they had full knowledge of the facts regarding the BPOs and t20. And even after all of this, the BPOs remained in BoB's possession until 3 days ago. Many people in the EVE community still question if some in CCP collude to advantage some player groups over others. I remain concerned about other allegations levied by the individual who broke the T2 BPO scandal, as do many others.
I do not claim to know whether the other allegations are true, but the need to find out seems all the more urgent now. Whether CCP, by making this admission, is trowing a bone at the growing crowd to satiate them and distract them from larger issues or is fully coming clean, I do not know. But the timing of this -- to respond with the truth only after it has been demanded -- stinks. I love this game and CCP has done so well in thoughtfully constructing it; but there will be a point when my frustration over the deception and constant bickering, both in and out of game, will overcome my love for EVE. Your Signature exceeds the max filesize limit of 24,000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo |
DOARota
Gallente Drones of Annihilation Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:26:00 -
[949]
Thing that troubles me (and maybe other people), is that as players there is absolutely no way we can verify any of this. By that I mean for all we know the blueprints in question may have been of a far more valuable nature than what we were told they were. I don't wear a tinfoil hat, am not prone to paranoia, and while I have no love for BoB, it serves me no purpose to see them put in the grinder. If CCP had made the discovery and informed the public of it, I would have been satisfied. But since a 3rd party had to show them what was going on at their end, it would seem very plausable that there was far more done than has been revealed. In this disclosure we get the" we found the culprit", "he didn't create anything super uber",and finally the " we're punishing him". Let's be honest. They can give him a new name and we would never know. They could also say they were penalizing his former alliance and we would also not know if they really did or not. Hell, the people who are posting this information could be the same people who were accused from the start and we couldn't prove any different. I guess I'll choose to stay calm over it because even if I demanded action and even if they listened, I would never know if they really acted or just told me they did.
ps: unless of course that hacker guy busted them on it j/k
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Serilla
The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:28:00 -
[950]
Warning: I have no idea what people have said before me, there's too much "stuff"
To Kieron: I understand that you cannot punish people who unwittingly used the T2 BPOs without knowing whether they were legal or not, I also understand that any form of isk punishment would be some arbitrary figure since you can't predict with 100% certainty what would have happened to the products being produced. My question though is why were the BPOS left in game to be used in the first place after the infraction was discovered? Why were the BPOs not immediately taken back and put into the lottery or just removed from the game? Presumably had such a stink not been made these BPOs, which you admit to knowing were illegally put into the game, would have remained in RKKs possession till the EvE servers were shut down.
I hope you do read this and can shed some light on why only now actions were taken regarding the BPOs
__________________
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:28:00 -
[951]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
I just wanted to let everyone know that they're on notice.
You see, if you were to look on a particular forum you'll be able to find the mail that Mr. K got from the GMs as to why he was banned.
Essentially, he was banned under the "we own you" clause.
Now go ahead and go about your happy little EVE-lives, knowing that if you uncover evidence of dodgy behavior (check out my sig!) you're sure to be banned.
You're playing our game, now.
We are omnipotence itself.
-dbp
And as we all know, emails cannot be doctored.
Your suggestion is correct, emails can be doctored.
However, I have no reason to lie. Furthermore, if GM actions were handled with any sense of transparency I could both post the contents of the email and have the contents of that email independently authenticated.
Sadly, none of that is possible.
I'm not saying you're lying. I doubt the word and actions of a criminal though. The thing MMO comapnies get to enjoy about the 'we own you' clause, is that it allows them to cover anything that they overlooked in the first place, much like the Bill of rights is suppose to give all unnoted powers to the States and not the federal government. Even if some companies don't realize it, it's a safety net so they can deal with any negitive elements to their game, and yes, kugu is a negitive element. All he ahas done is made public something which happened months ago, and he did it because he failed in his attempt at B-l-a-c-k-m-a-i-l. If he's as cunning as he is evil, any contact he had with CCP he will have made sure to fan the flames to get as damning a response as he could. He wanted to extort from people, they didn't let him, so now he wants to try and ruin them. Ofcourse I'd never trust a person like him.
Btw please gimme that info about the pirate faction, you're not allowed to tease me like that. I hate when I'm left hanging in suspense.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:28:00 -
[952]
*snip* Keep it ontopic -Eldo ([email protected])
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:30:00 -
[953]
Originally by: heysupport Why are you not banning BoB leadership? This should be done soon so as not to tip the balance in the upcoming war in which it's a known fact that cynonet and nodecrash.net are still in operation?
Yes, ban the leadership of BoB, that wouldn't tip the scales in the next war, not at all...
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Edheler
Quintessential Continuum.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:32:00 -
[954]
CCP, your answer is appreciated.
Your solution is however does not go far enough. I do not believe that in this case you have shown the level of committment to your customers versus your employees that you should have.
2 of my 3 accounts as of this moment are canceled. You know it happened a while ago, but you just gave me the reason to not reconsider. I will be watching your actions carefully while their time runs out.
Edheler Quintessential CEO
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:32:00 -
[955]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic *snip* Keep it ontopic -Eldo ([email protected])
hey Eldo, it was on topic as this is the motherload of all ****ups from dev to isd foot soldier (yea u)
besides, i`ve read the msg befor u removed it
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:33:00 -
[956]
Well, let's stop for a moment and think here. Worst case scenario, it all comes out that bob's dominance of eve and brutalization of ASCN was funded and operated with a lot of dev cheating. Now, assume that comes to teh light of day, it would be a scandal and possibly crash the game, especially if all of the events of GM and Dev cheating came to light at the same time. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of accounts would be closed, and maybe even more by disgusted players.
It would cripple the game, generate too much bad press for a tiny game like this to recover from, and essentially fatally wound eve.
We might not be seeing a guilty cover up here, but a "for the greater good" cover up where they are going to try to salvage the game and orchestrate graceful exits by the guilty parties over time, and punish them behind the scenes, to save eve an even more major scandal and keep it alive for the players.
Call me a tinfoil hat junkie, but sometimes conspiracies do have good intentions.
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Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:34:00 -
[957]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic *snip* Keep it ontopic -Eldo ([email protected])
Please check the [email protected] for a message from me.
Discussing the level of transparency with which CCP will continue to operate their game is perfectly on-topic for this thread.
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:34:00 -
[958]
Originally by: Mjnari Umm... (trying to follow your logic) so because it's past summer... and the person who released the story is/was a felon... we... shouldn't do anything else?
That is the most flagrant abuse of common sense I've ever seen. Do you vote with that brain?
CCP "dealt" with this issue last summer. The players only recently found out about what happened. The players were "30-pages-worth-of" not happy with CCP's response.
Ergo, CCP has not dealt with the issue.
Unhappy players does not equal situation havign not been dealt with.
The players don't like HOW it was dealt with.
I didn't mention the fact kugu's a felon (in what you quoted), and I was refuting the abusrd notion that Kugu's actions are what has gotten the situation 'dealt with'.
the only thing kugu did, was bring to light something that happened to t20 in the summer. All this time, all the work he has done since then, has been after this all happened.
You'll find my common sense works just fine, despite my refusal to think that because the lynch mob isn't happy, that CCP was unaware of the situation, or did nothing until this week.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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EzSnake
Caldari Cereal Killerz deadspace society
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:35:00 -
[959]
Sad to have read most of these 31 pages and find out nothing has been done by CCP (except removed 6 bpo's best I can tell)
Personally I think the whole staff involved should be terminated, even the morons that didn't fire him in first place...the only reason they DIDN'T.. is beacuse they do the same ****!!! There's too many rumors accusations going about to be limited to all T20 alone!!! And the ones admitted to, are seamingly bull**** and only disclosed to appease us..(You know the people that pay these guys to lie, cheat and treat us like uber crap!)
Then they dare ban the fellow that busted them, what a set of balls you guys have!!!!! Your damned accounts should be banned, not the guy who's been paying (part) of your salaries for who knows how long... All because he was sick of the crap and used your own measures agaisnt you to prove it!! ((Yes I say 'you' as in CCP and not T20 alone...they didn't fire him nor admit the issue when they dicovered it, nor do a damn thing to fix it...they are FULLY responsible for it now)).
IMHO - Mulitple GM's / Dev's in one alliance/corp should be avoided. It's truly unfair to have that many ppl w/ such detailed knowledge of game mechaincs in 1 place. If your going to allow them, have 1 gm/dev in each and every alliance!
This is severly screwed up!!!! Even though action should've BEEN taken months ago...I will give it a few days to see how things progress and if CCP is truly trying to resolve the issue.
Honeslty, I can see tons canceling thier accounts over this! Hope your profits next month likes the decisions and deceiptful ways you decide to emabark on several months ago!
There's only 1 way I see to save your company and game -- Be 100% honest and admit to everything and make some damn actions to right these huge wrongs!!! Whatever that may be..if you feel you can't fire him...fire yourself/ ban the jack-off's that cheated/ disolve bob and all its assets to the community / give out 1 free t2 bpo to every alliance...Something, anything BUT the lack of action you have shown thus far!!!!
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:35:00 -
[960]
Edited by: Kerushi on 10/02/2007 03:32:49
Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Well, let's stop for a moment and think here. Worst case scenario, it all comes out that bob's dominance of eve and brutalization of ASCN was funded and operated with a lot of dev cheating. Now, assume that comes to teh light of day, it would be a scandal and possibly crash the game, especially if all of the events of GM and Dev cheating came to light at the same time. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of accounts would be closed, and maybe even more by disgusted players.
It would cripple the game, generate too much bad press for a tiny game like this to recover from, and essentially fatally wound eve.
We might not be seeing a guilty cover up here, but a "for the greater good" cover up where they are going to try to salvage the game and orchestrate graceful exits by the guilty parties over time, and punish them behind the scenes, to save eve an even more major scandal and keep it alive for the players.
Call me a tinfoil hat junkie, but sometimes conspiracies do have good intentions.
if they would have done it immidiatly, we wouldn`t be at this point (maybe another point, but not this 1 :) )
4:33 am, i`m a forum ***** afterall
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William Brasky
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:36:00 -
[961]
but sometimes conspiracies do have good intentions.
As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
It's like the Rodney King trial around here.
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The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:37:00 -
[962]
Originally by: RevanTK421 Edited by: RevanTK421 on 10/02/2007 03:14:33 The hypocrisies in this whole thing are amazing. I can almost guarantee you if you were caught hacking the game and you aren't in BoD you got banned.
Except of course for the Goonswarm alliance, who hacked the Eve client on a large scale with their pre-Kali portrait trick.
Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
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Dust Angel
Harvest System Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:37:00 -
[963]
Kerion-
in light that CCP was aware of the bpos, and that t20 was punished already, why were the bpos not taken away then? Why was he allowed to keep them for months on end.
mirel yirrin > "DU HAST VERBROKEN DAS FORUMERN RULEN! DU SWINE!" |
Betonela
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:38:00 -
[964]
Originally by: The Assyrian
Originally by: RevanTK421 Edited by: RevanTK421 on 10/02/2007 03:14:33 The hypocrisies in this whole thing are amazing. I can almost guarantee you if you were caught hacking the game and you aren't in BoD you got banned.
Except of course for the Goonswarm alliance, who hacked the Eve client on a large scale with their pre-Kali portrait trick.
Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
waz legal
--------- join on New Movement of Market Traders |
Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:39:00 -
[965]
Originally by: The Assyrian Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
You mean the "hack" that CCP turned around and integrated into their game?
Also, there haven't been a hundred goons flocking to this thread. There's been one goon that's posted one hundred times.
That would be me.
---
Check out LV's scouting technique! |
killmore
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:40:00 -
[966]
We'll I've read alot of posts today about how the dev's need to be controlled/monitored/removed and how justice should be dispensed. Truly though the only thing we as player's control is the life of eve yes eve could not exist without the 15.95x100000 a month. That is simple and I think as players maybe we should look at that path, as unenjoyable as it might seem ccp could not ignore it. When they can't pay the bills and the dev's don't get there checks they will finally see the light and go hhm maybe it wasn't worth it. My two cents
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:40:00 -
[967]
32 pages of comments! O.o
Personally speaking, I think this teacup is getting rather stormy. I prefer coffee anyway.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Telefishopolis
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:41:00 -
[968]
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
- If you were aware of wrongdoings last summer how come the BPOs remained in-game until now?
- Along the same lines, how come all his characters weren't recycled last summer? What the ****?
- What is the punishment you mention that t20 received in lieu of termination of employment? I want details, please.
- I expect the beneficiaries (corp, alliance) to be penalized one way or another - if you could put isk-dupers or other exploiters' wallets into the red, I'm sure something can be done.
quoting this because I somehow can't find the post in which I asked the same questions considerably more politely. Thanks in advance for your honest and timely answers, CCP!
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The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:41:00 -
[969]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: The Assyrian Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
You mean the "hack" that CCP turned around and integrated into their game?
Also, there haven't been a hundred goons flocking to this thread. There's been one goon that's posted one hundred times.
That would be me.
Outstanding argument! Wow, you must be a really deep thinker!
I guess that means a pre-Kali WTZ hack would have been legal too. Awesome!
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Serilla
The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:42:00 -
[970]
Originally by: The Assyrian
Originally by: RevanTK421 Edited by: RevanTK421 on 10/02/2007 03:14:33 The hypocrisies in this whole thing are amazing. I can almost guarantee you if you were caught hacking the game and you aren't in BoD you got banned.
Except of course for the Goonswarm alliance, who hacked the Eve client on a large scale with their pre-Kali portrait trick.
Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
It was my understanding all they did was replace the .png files for portraits in your eve directory, not use some alternate eve client with sv_cheats enabled on it __________________
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:43:00 -
[971]
Before I crash for the night, as I have been following this thread since oh god, I've been reading this for 4 hours???
Yeah, I'm going to bed, anyways...
People keep in mind that we are bombarding CCP with questions, and lots of insane ranting, at a pace that kieron is not going to be able to keep up with. In the business world, you don't get instant communication 24/7 from any and everything. calm down, slow down, and let's see what CCP's reaction is when they wake up and see this thread.
repeating the same few lines over and over isn't going to change anything.
And I fully support keeping kugu out of EVE. He didn't have good intentions, he's not a good person, and quite honestly, he did all this as an act of vengeance on those who wouldn't give in to his demands.
I know many of you are screaming you'll quit, but many screamed they'd quit due to the 4S incident, and many screamed they'd quit due to the GM scorpion incident. However you'll find many of those people are still here. Making a decision when in a fit of rage is never smart.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Gen Maton
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:43:00 -
[972]
CCP you've damaged your rep greatly on the market. I already see people who would've once praised this game to their friends steer them clear. The image you've projected right now is, "A senior dev was caught tipping the balance towards those his alt flew with. We caught this 6 months ago, but didn't do anything about it till people found out the forums. And our response is a "won't happen again"."
Simply put, the MMO community won't accept that. Especially one like ours. I used to love this game, and now I'm wavering on continuing to stay (no, no one can have my stuff if I leave). You're handling of this situation may have badly damaged Eve in the long run.
People have been wronged, and someone has to pay. t20 needs to be sacked. Or he needs to own up to it and resign.
If for whatever reason he doesn't leave, we need assurances of the following (none of this break up BoB crap). t20 never gets another player character on Tranq. Ever. GM account to cover emergencies. If he ever works on petitions, it can't be on one that involves BoB in any way, shape or form.
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:45:00 -
[973]
Originally by: Dust Angel Kerion-
in light that CCP was aware of the bpos, and that t20 was punished already, why were the bpos not taken away then? Why was he allowed to keep them for months on end.
Because CCP is rigging the game in BoB's favor.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:46:00 -
[974]
Originally by: Serilla
Originally by: The Assyrian
Originally by: RevanTK421 Edited by: RevanTK421 on 10/02/2007 03:14:33 The hypocrisies in this whole thing are amazing. I can almost guarantee you if you were caught hacking the game and you aren't in BoD you got banned.
Except of course for the Goonswarm alliance, who hacked the Eve client on a large scale with their pre-Kali portrait trick.
Everyone knows they did it -- proofs were supplied on the boards. Yet nothing happened, and now we have hundreds of the same Goons who used that hacked client here screaming for blood because their sense of fair play is offended.
It's really very comical.
It was my understanding all they did was replace the .png files for portraits in your eve directory, not use some alternate eve client with sv_cheats enabled on it
The portraits are part of your client. Modify the portraits = modify the client.
Ok seriously, I'm going to bed now. Someone bug DS to take over for me or something.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:46:00 -
[975]
Originally by: Kerushi don`t forget the months of "waiting" for an investigation after alot of pressure by the players
an investigation that didn`t happen as it was allready "dealt" with so why tell every one to shutup and lock all threads if that supposed investigation alleady happend months ago?
buying time to forge an coverup in my view...
I'm glad someone else realizes this..
If all this was known last summer what exactly needed to be "investigated" this week?
Did CCP "investigate" the easiest way out of this crap? =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:46:00 -
[976]
My view on this is similar to many here, and I don't think that needs repeating. My issue is with this portion of Hellmar's blog:
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
Frankly, Hellmar should have stopped there. Its your game, and you don't need any permission from us to do whatever you want; fair, unfair, or otherwise. In that sense, EVE and that Ultima Online greyshard many of you started on are no different.
What I have a problem with is Hellmar's assertion that EVE is better because we have developers contributing to player groups as players. He says, "Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency."
We have online worlds, from other, more professional designers, with long player retention rates, who regularly build, maintain, and expand online worlds with enough competency to satisfy thousands of gamers. Only CCP, as far as I know, feels the need to "fully immerse" themselves in player business, when other companies do just as good of a job without joining and participating in player business.
Why is that? Hellmar believes, "while that does expose us to some degree of risk, the rewards are incalculably higher." Obviously, every other legitimate game developer believes the opposite, that it isn't worth the risk, and for good reasons too.
First, your peers in the gaming industry know that mingling with players, and joining private gaming clubs doesn't give an accurate understanding of the players, or the game. It gives a misleading and inaccurate understanding of both. Every researcher into human institutions understands that you don't understand psychology by checking yourself into an asylum, and acting like a patient. You know more than them, and you won't know what its like to not know. You'll miss important clues, because you are too immersed in the subject to understand the wider perspective, and your presence is influencing the reality you are trying to study.
Secondly, you don't need to join player clubs, and raise patrons to the level of friends to understand everything you need to know, from a developer's perspective. You already have far better tools at your disposal, like monitoring channels, debug screens, etc., to create perfect conditions to study anything you want.
Third, in a large game like this one, it is virtually impossible for the provider to adhere to CCP's stance of player/provider relations. It is why, "respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between...employees and customers" isn't more "common in online games."
I really don't think that the reason other online games don't encourage this "deeper level" has much to do with not wanting to do it. Its that your peers in the gaming business realize its impossible to have a personal relationship with every subscriber, and unless they can, they shouldn't make it a motto.
The problem is that there are simply too few of you, and too many of us, for you to be friends with all of us. You can only ever be friends with some of us on that level, and chances are, most of us will never be treated as anything more than what all of us are: patrons. Many of us have absolutely no problem with being treated as patrons.
What becomes problematic is when some patrons are treated as more than patrons, but have this "deeper level" of involvement. It makes people like me wonder how much extra I have to pay to get the "deeper level" others have? You can't do it with all of us, so then, what determines who gets the "deep treatment," and what can a patron do to get it from you?
Hellmar claims that CCP's success is due to this "deep immersion." It makes me wonder how much more sucessful EVE could be if you didn't put so much stock in this unrealistic and problematic stance. |
kmac1
Hookers and Black Jack
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:48:00 -
[977]
What amazes me, is that with all the stealing/cheating/etc that the GMs, DEVs and CCP, by convience, have ignored...
They still expect, and hammer on paying subscribers for "supposed" EULA violations.
Hypocrites!
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ATTRADIES
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:52:00 -
[978]
Its a grubby dirty little afair from start to finish - The real loser here is CCP. I wonder if they truely realize the amount faith and respect they have lost here. People arent stupid and we know a white wash when we see one. The only one punished has been the whistleblower and that about sums up how its been dealt with. Shame on the lot you. Kizer
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:52:00 -
[979]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Kerushi don`t forget the months of "waiting" for an investigation after alot of pressure by the players
an investigation that didn`t happen as it was allready "dealt" with so why tell every one to shutup and lock all threads if that supposed investigation alleady happend months ago?
buying time to forge an coverup in my view...
I'm glad someone else realizes this..
If all this was known last summer what exactly needed to be "investigated" this week?
Did CCP "investigate" the easiest way out of this crap?
They probably investigated the claims that people were making, and found that it was directly related to the incident from the summer which they dealt with at the time in whatever manner.
The incident itself was likely not investigated, except maybe that the BPOs were still in game for whatever reason...
(Ok I lied, I'm not actually going to bed yet)
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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kmac1
Hookers and Black Jack
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:53:00 -
[980]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador My view on this is similar to many here, and I don't think that needs repeating. My issue is with this portion of Hellmar's blog:
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
Frankly, Hellmar should have stopped there. Its your game, and you don't need any permission from us to do whatever you want; fair, unfair, or otherwise. In that sense, EVE and that Ultima Online greyshard many of you started on are no different.
What I have a problem with is Hellmar's assertion that EVE is better because we have developers contributing to player groups as players. He says, "Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency."
We have online worlds, from other, more professional designers, with long player retention rates, who regularly build, maintain, and expand online worlds with enough competency to satisfy thousands of gamers. Only CCP, as far as I know, feels the need to "fully immerse" themselves in player business, when other companies do just as good of a job without joining and participating in player business.
Why is that? Hellmar believes, "while that does expose us to some degree of risk, the rewards are incalculably higher." Obviously, every other legitimate game developer believes the opposite, that it isn't worth the risk, and for good reasons too.
First, your peers in the gaming industry know that mingling with players, and joining private gaming clubs doesn't give an accurate understanding of the players, or the game. It gives a misleading and inaccurate understanding of both. Every researcher into human institutions understands that you don't understand psychology by checking yourself into an asylum, and acting like a patient. You know more than them, and you won't know what its like to not know. You'll miss important clues, because you are too immersed in the subject to understand the wider perspective, and your presence is influencing the reality you are trying to study.
Secondly, you don't need to join player clubs, and raise patrons to the level of friends to understand everything you need to know, from a developer's perspective. You already have far better tools at your disposal, like monitoring channels, debug screens, etc., to create perfect conditions to study anything you want.
Third, in a large game like this one, it is virtually impossible for the provider to adhere to CCP's stance of player/provider relations. It is why, "respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between...employees and customers" isn't more "common in online games."
I really don't think that the reason other online games don't encourage this "deeper level" has much to do with not wanting to do it. Its that your peers in the gaming business realize its impossible to have a personal relationship with every subscriber, and unless they can, they shouldn't make it a motto.
The problem is that there are simply too few of you, and too many of us, for you to be friends with all of us. You can only ever be friends with some of us on that level, and chances are, most of us will never be treated as anything more than what all of us are: patrons. Many of us have absolutely no problem with being treated as patrons.
What becomes problematic is when some patrons are treated as more than patrons, but have this "deeper level" of involvement. It makes people like me wonder how much extra I have to pay to get the "deeper level" others have? You can't do it with all of us, so then, what determines who gets the "deep treatment," and what can a patron do to get it from you?
Hellmar claims that CCP's success is due to this "deep immersion." It makes me wonder how much more sucessful EVE could be if you didn't put so much stock in this unrealistic and problematic stance.
Kudos!!
The most thought driven, intellectual post
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Shirazz
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:55:00 -
[981]
I think the reason the community is really annoyed is that when the culprit was nameless, they were going to be dealt with. As soon as they caught the culprit the devs then closed ranks and only an apology was needed.
Now this is not my opinion, I dont want anyone to be put out of a job, but it seems that if a dev can do this and get away with it, whats to stop it happening again, and even if the devs reply to this post, even when they say 'next time it happens, the culprit will be sacked', they said it this time and it didnt happen.
Personally, I dont believe that he should be sacked, I do however some other punishment should be administered to stop other devs doing the same thing ( heh, im sorry if im making you guys sound like criminals, ut was nicer in my head ), mabey you the account that this was done on should be deleated or something to that effect. I have been told there are a lot of dev alts in BoB (sorry if this is wrong)and i also know that you need more than 20mil sp to get into BoB. This equates to about a year and a halfs training at least. I think this would deter others in BoB to do the same thing. The other way you could do it is by telling the dev in question that he is not allowed an alt to his dev account, therefore their would be no bias and no reason to give out items or T2 bpos.
Sorry if this is a bit harsh but im tired and a little miffed the guys who are supposedly our arch enemys were being effectivly supplied another MS by a dev ( as if BoB wernt enough to handle already!)
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Letkomancer
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:58:00 -
[982]
So this is not the first time it happened. Hand full of cases ? 5-10 ?. I can tell that for me that makes the game not appealing anymore. So the 2 accounts are getting canceled. I liked the player driven world. This is not it. This handfull could be why there is BOB or G on the top. I would not play in this condition, as you said it is like rl. 2 accounts one 2 and a half years other 1 and a half.
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heysupport
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 03:58:00 -
[983]
Quote: We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
That's not an entirely true statement and you are aware of the proof but are covering it up. Why is CCP so staunchly supporting the Band of Exploiters? You should be on the players ("the mob") side. huh?
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Serilla
The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 03:59:00 -
[984]
Edited by: Serilla on 10/02/2007 03:55:37
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The portraits are part of your client. Modify the portraits = modify the client.
I can't really be arsed to look back in the forum posts but I believe there was some mixed messages being sent by CCP in regards to this initially, and then there was the ruling that it was against the rules. The intent of my initial post was to point out it wasn't some nefarious process running in the background hidden from eve but changing picture files. People do modifications to their clients which you can't technically do from a window in game. There are options you need to manually add to config files to get certain options or effects to appear in game (prefs.ini). The only difference between one being an exploit and one being legal is that CCP has ruled that one is against the rules. It is my understanding that as of this final declaration of the legality of portrait swapping that the goons stopped using it. I don't know though, I'm not in goonswarm. This happens all the time though, questionable tactics are continually used despite them appearing to be in bad taste (logging out) until a declaration from CCP that they are against the rules. __________________
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Liet Traep
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:03:00 -
[985]
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Not good enough for me. You can ban K for what he did and these guys get to keep their accounts. I'm not happy with how CCP has handled this. I have two accounts. One has already been cancelled and I'm considering cancelling the other. I'm not sure I want to pay money to play a game that the people who make the game cheat at. I've put a lot of time and effort into Eve. I really enjoy it or did. I think there's a lot more cheating going on. There have been too many strange incidents involving BoD and it's not like we can trust CCP to investigate them.
In particular I'm very concerned about the Alliance championships. BoB won them 3x in a row. Then I hear here on the forums that LeMonde the dev who ran the events plays in BoB. I would never have participated in a tournament had I known that. And to me it seems a conflict of interest that the dev running the event belongs to the same group who keeps winning it over and over.
I think the rot runs deeper than you've admitted CCP. I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts. it's not going to take much for me to find another game instead and give someone else my hard earned money.
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Grim Savage
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:06:00 -
[986]
Hmm.. No wonder Cyvok's Titan got killed.
I always found it questionable, but now I am convinced that there where foul play.
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Grim Savage
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:10:00 -
[987]
Originally by: Liet Traep Quote:
In particular I'm very concerned about the Alliance championships. BoB won them 3x in a row. Then I hear here on the forums that LeMonde the dev who ran the events plays in BoB. I would never have participated in a tournament had I known that. And to me it seems a conflict of interest that the dev running the event belongs to the same group who keeps winning it over and over.
I think the rot runs deeper than you've admitted CCP. I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts. it's not going to take much for me to find another game instead and give someone else my hard earned money.
Mr.Fix was utterly convo-spammed and unable to fly his rocket crow the way you need to fly a rocket crow in the final...
Do wonder why CCP didn't make a rematch there, because it was obviosly messed up, and tracable from CCP tools I am sure..
Now we know why..
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:11:00 -
[988]
As I was saying before, I honestly believe that EVE could be far better developed, maintained, and enjoyed if you would cease getting your cues from your "deep immersion," and actually behave like professional developers.
I can tell how misleading the developers have become, because they give us things like EVE-TV, and the alliance championships, because all they understand are those who would enjoy EVE-TV, and the alliance championships.
Meanwhile, we have no Amarr Emperor, and no Gallente president, for over a year. Had they understood the real EVE, and not the slice of EVE they immerse themselves within, the developers would spend far less time, improving the game for far more general needs, and far more subscribers, far more cheaply.
It is painfully obvious that the developers believe every player on Tranquility wants to sit on the couch, drinking Quafe, with Verone, and EVE radio, because they are immersed in the sort of demographic that likes that. Meanwhile, the ones that the Devs do not know, and do not apparently care to know, are wondering exactly how these "improvements" to the EVE experience pertains to them, and their needs?
The problem I see is that CCP thinks it knows what its player's want, based upon the experiences of a relative, stylish, and successful few. Meanwhile, they miss the trees for the wood, but its understandable when they think that all we want is to be friends in this "deeper relationship" way they like to aspouse, but can never attain.
I don't want this "deep immersion." I don't want a "deeper relationship" to CCP devs, but more importantly, even if I did want it, I'm probably not interesting, informative, or useful for CCP devs to care about me in any way other than that of a patron, who pays to experience this game.
I'm fine with being a patron. What I'm not fine with is the notion that fraternizing with players is seen as the thing that makes EVE a good game.
You sell yourself short there, Devs! Its not your beer, alliance participation, TS convos, EVE-TV, or "deeper relationship" that makes this game great. That's all just a distraction to the really important things you do, and becoming more distracting the more you believe as Hellmar says you do. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Rabb Darktide
Independent Fleet O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:13:00 -
[989]
Kieron,
First of all, I feel really sorry for you. This can't be easy to deal with. That being said, you seem to be digging in deeper. You guys should seriously look into hiring a professional spokesperson who can handle damage control.
Originally by: kieron Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
I am not an expert in employment law in Iceland. However, my guess is its pretty close to employment law in most western nations. I am a manager IRL. If one of my staff commits an offense and I am not around to deal with it, and my subordinate managers are unsure what to do, the offending employee is suspended until I can deal with the situation. Additionally, I always have my cell phone on me just in case. My business does signifigantly less than CCP. I am always available in an emergency, why isn't your CEO?
Why, exactally, when this misconduct was discovered, were the BPOs left in game?
Both of these questions point to extreme errors in judgement that directly lead to this situation.
A better approach would have to terminated the employment of the dev and then announced to the community IN JUNE that you caught a dev doing bad things, you fixed the problem and took swift action. Then you would have 30 pages of praises, not 30 pages of anger.
Originally by: kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
Since you can't discuss the specifics, what we, the community, are going to assume is the worst. Unfortunately, even if there were EULA violations, leaving him banned without showing your cards makes CCP appear to be retaliating against him. The only way to make this go away is to unban him.
Since there are signifigant EULA violations that have been exposed against others in this whole affair, their continuted presance in this community APPEARS to be outright favortism.
For my part, Kieron, I'm sad to say I don't beleive you. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a signifigant amount of your paying customers, this ban was nothing more than retaliation.
Originally by: kieron We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
So how does CCP plan to rectify the enormous advantage that this gave one alliance over all others? If you cannot remove the ill gotten gains of these prints, than the only way to balance it out it to provide a similar benefit to the other alliances.
I eagerly await CCP's answers to these questions.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:14:00 -
[990]
Originally by: Liet Traep In particular I'm very concerned about the Alliance championships. BoB won them 3x in a row. Then I hear here on the forums that LeMonde the dev who ran the events plays in BoB. I would never have participated in a tournament had I known that. And to me it seems a conflict of interest that the dev running the event belongs to the same group who keeps winning it over and over.
If BoB had dominated the tournaments then you'd have a point, however they didn't. They nearly lost, more than once, and one of the tournies they ended up winning because their inty pilot was setup just a hair better than the other, altho both apparently got spammed like hell with convos (which is why you fly with auto reject on!).
Simply 'hearing' it isn't good enough for me. Now if there's hard proof that he is, and that he fought, maybe I'd polish the tinfoil, but having watched the last couple tournaments, I don't buy any stock in the idea that was rigged. Was a shame about the Impoc though.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:19:00 -
[991]
Originally by: Grim Savage
Originally by: Liet Traep Quote:
In particular I'm very concerned about the Alliance championships. BoB won them 3x in a row. Then I hear here on the forums that LeMonde the dev who ran the events plays in BoB. I would never have participated in a tournament had I known that. And to me it seems a conflict of interest that the dev running the event belongs to the same group who keeps winning it over and over.
I think the rot runs deeper than you've admitted CCP. I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts. it's not going to take much for me to find another game instead and give someone else my hard earned money.
Mr.Fix was utterly convo-spammed and unable to fly his rocket crow the way you need to fly a rocket crow in the final...
Do wonder why CCP didn't make a rematch there, because it was obviosly messed up, and tracable from CCP tools I am sure..
Now we know why..
I asked this right after the match, didn't get an answer, so I'll ask again.
Why did Mr. Fix not have auto reject on in space?
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Fray Chuara
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:20:00 -
[992]
I am totally disgusted. To those saying this is just a game, it's not, it's a business. A hundred thousand plus paying customers have had fraud committed against them by an employee and he's not fired, rediculous.
Companies, governments, etc never learn. Coverups only make the situation worse. I would like an answer explaining why the bpo's were left in game when this situation was discovered in June. Was it perhaps because if they had been removed we, your paying customers, would have found out about the abuse and fraud when you hoped it could be covered up?
I doubt I'll be renewing my subscription. No, you can't have my stuff.
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Usku Ukusku
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:21:00 -
[993]
Crap. Pure and utter crap.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=423
At the end of that nice little spiel, the CEO nicely signs off /quote Sincerely,
Hilmar Veigar Petursson, CEO CCP /endquote
If you were sincere, you'd fire the man responsible for all of this. You haven't, nor do I think you will. Puts you right up there with all the other CEOs in the world today that are taking advantage of the people who have invested time, effort and money into a company.
You expect that we the players respect and follow the rules laid down by CCP, yet when there is obviously a problem with one of your own, you stick your head in the sand and your ass in the air. That sir, is not right. Its cowardly, which is easily equatably to you, and your company.
This dev obviously broke your rules, and by doing nothing, how are you, or any of your employees supposed to exercise the right to stop any of the player base from breaking said rules.
Furthermore, it was both cowardly and absolutely assinine to ban the accounts of the person responsible for bringing these allegations to light. Your people claim that there were other, extraneous reasons for said persons banning. Are you seriously expecting us, the players to just accept that at face value? Obviously, at least one of your employees lied, who is to say that your company is just making up said extraneous reasons? Its a simple matter to say it, but you have done nothing to prove this allegations, except internally. Which at this point means absolutely squat.
Something needs to be done, and by your own words, the only acceptable response to flagrant abuse of privileges and power by any employee is termination.
Anything less is just evidence that CCP really doesn't give a crap.
Either do the right thing by firing the man, or at least have the cajones to blog about how you really don't care that your system was abused, that you aren't gonna do anything about it and anyone who really feels offended by this whole sordid affair should go play WoW.
My two cents/
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:22:00 -
[994]
Jacob Majestic,
"However, I have no reason to lie."
I'm afraid experience has taught me something. You are a goon. That is enough. There is nothing in my mind which can excuse what the Goons have done in terms of hacking the client and cooperating with hackers.
Further, to quote IRC:
<Rigel> We lie because we like it. <Rigel> We lie because we get off on people hating us.
Anyway,
I applaud CCP for keeping the actual criminal of this saga out the game (No, violating company ethics is not a criminal act, hacking IS).
//Maya |
Draaken
Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:23:00 -
[995]
Originally by: Liet Traep I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts.
Don't threaten, do. If they come back on Monday morning to find that one third of their customer's accounts have been canceled, I'm sure it'll ring a bell. I know my 4 accounts won't be renewed once they run out in a few days unless this pile of poo is being handled properly and questions asked get at least satisfactory answers. ____________________ first!!1!! -Capsicum
Originally by: Wrangler I lock, therefor I am.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:25:00 -
[996]
No point in banning t20 from eve, he can easily change his isp, or better yet use a proxy isp from the same computer.
Geuss you can drop him from his job though
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Gelf
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:26:00 -
[997]
*WTS* Spinal columns. Location Iceland.
Going fast. Stocks limited.
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Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:27:00 -
[998]
BoB == Enron: lots of people in the alliance were in the dark about all the b/s at the top.
If I were in BoB; I'd be pretty upset at the alliance leadership for allowing this to happen and keeping the members in the dark. In the end, the BoB leadership helped create this mess and ruin it for a lot of people who had nothing to do with this.
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Kylania
Gallente Phoenix Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:27:00 -
[999]
Originally by: Usku Ukusku Are you seriously expecting us, the players to just accept that at face value?
And yet you accept at face value the words of a known hacker who demanded ISK from people in order to blackmail CCP with stolen data from a third party website about an incident that happened 6 months ago?
As you said, Crap, pure and utter crap. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap | How to Build from a BPO |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:33:00 -
[1000]
Originally by: Rodney Caston BoB == Enron: lots of people in the alliance were in the dark about all the b/s at the top.
BoB do a better job than any other alliance of keeping their members well informed. Not of the origion of informations, but the whys and the what. Nobody in BoB can say they went into things with their eyes closed, or didn't realise what was going on.
That dosn't excuse others actions one bit. That dosn't mean others are not doing the same thing. Because they are. As long as any response is consistant across the board, I'm happy.
//Maya |
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:33:00 -
[1001]
Originally by: Kylania And yet you accept at face value the words of a known hacker who demanded ISK from people in order to blackmail CCP with stolen data from a third party website about an incident that happened 6 months ago?
So far it seems the hacker in question has been much more open and honest than CCP has, sad as that is.
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Usku Ukusku
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:35:00 -
[1002]
Originally by: Kylania
Originally by: Usku Ukusku Are you seriously expecting us, the players to just accept that at face value?
And yet you accept at face value the words of a known hacker who demanded ISK from people in order to blackmail CCP with stolen data from a third party website about an incident that happened 6 months ago?
As you said, Crap, pure and utter crap.
Nope. I didn't accept what the hacker said at face value. In fact, I havent even seen said webpage. CCP admitted to the event. After some gentle prodding from the community.
Nor did I say the hacker in question was free and clear. Nor did I say that I supported the way the information was brought to light. I just said that its assinine to accept the word of CCP at this point as they have really done nothing at all in regards to this.
And last I checked, blackmailing people in game for isk is a perfectly acceptable form of piracy in Eve. example.
pirate a " Give me x amount of isk, or I blow you, your freighter and your shiny implants to ****." victim a " Ok. "
Honestly mate, you read to much much into things...
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Jant Deaux
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:37:00 -
[1003]
I think this runs MUCH deeper then just a few BPO's. How much more of a hand up has BOB recieved. It's my opinion that punishment be extreme and swift!! This is TOTALLY unacceptable!! I believe that T20 should be terminated and BOB be disbanded!! It's that simple!! Their assets should be sold on the open market to anyone that is not, or has not, been associated with their alliance. Cheating, Stealing, and Dishonor should NEVER be tolerated, and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly!!
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:37:00 -
[1004]
Here's what I posted on the CELES forums:
========== I had hope that this whole thing wasn't true, but always knew it was. CCP's waffling and trying to sweep it under the rug confirms to me that this is far, far deeper than they've admitted. The almost lack of punishment meted out is icing on the cake :/
I'm not going to renew my accounts once they expire. I just can't in good conscience give these people money if they are going to unfairly stack the game against us. I will not pay for that. I'll update this post with my the days my two accounts will die.
<gyrn's master account name>: Subscription Status: Active Cancellation Pending Expires: 28.March.2007 Total Charges Made: 10
*****: Subscription Status: Active Cancellation Pending Expires: 01.April.2007 Total Charges Made: 8
I'll decide what to do with my stuff over the coming weeks. I suspect **** and all of his stuff will go to his original owner, a real life friend of mine - the guy that introduced me to the game - *****. Gyrn and his stuff I will most likely leave to CELES. I would've quite long ago if it wasn't for the brotherhood/sisterhood and friendship.
I'm truly sad. I've invested a lot of heart, time and care in to CELES and to eve, but I will not play against an unfairly stacked deck.
In my cancellation notices I wrote as best as I could express my disappointment with the way CCP has handled the issue. If they can somehow show a believable change of heart perhaps I'll cancel my cancellations. We'll see.
/me cries ==========
I vote with my wallet. CCP's mishandling of this event was faith-shattering. ========== CELES KB: http://celes.griefwatch.net bobKB:http://www.killboard.net
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:38:00 -
[1005]
Lets take t20 to the gallows and burn him to the stake!!!
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h4x0
Caldari Apostles of Insanity
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:40:00 -
[1006]
The problems I see in this case are just icing to the already burnt cake.
People in this game are treated unjustly and without warrant removed form the game all the time.
I myself had my main character banned of 3 plus years multi billions in isk and modules and bpos/c's dread carriers etc.
I was told that my character was banned for me placing it on e-bay.. I never did anything like that as I would not be here now on this character if I wanted to quit...
I fought it for a month and was told that someone had to have access to my account posted it..
I see now that it could have been a jealous GM OR GM plotting againt me. (My main is FatBalls) I have more enemies than friends and it would not surprise me that this is the way i would leave eve by being banned on my main and eventually giving up..
This is just the kind of thing that will push many over the top seeing favoratism to people whom have admitted to wrong doing and persecuting those whom are truly innocent.
I am asking once again that with all these things coming to light that perhaps a senior GM look into the FatBalls case and when they see it was not me perhaps say sorry and send me my money back for the three months I was charged and was banned and then maybe re-activate my account.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:41:00 -
[1007]
Edited by: Rodney Caston on 10/02/2007 04:40:06
Originally by: Jant Deaux This is TOTALLY unacceptable!! I believe that T20 should be terminated and BOB be disbanded!! It's that simple!! Their assets should be sold on the open market to anyone that is not, or has not, been associated with their alliance. Cheating, Stealing, and Dishonor should NEVER be tolerated, and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly!!
1933-1945 Germany just called, they want their rhetoric back.
/Godwin
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:42:00 -
[1008]
believe many of these problems and "cheating ablities" come from being able to manipulate alts (just get rid of em)!!.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:44:00 -
[1009]
Originally by: Draaken Edited by: Draaken on 10/02/2007 04:24:26
Originally by: Liet Traep I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts.
Don't threaten, do. If they come back on Monday morning to find that one third of their customers' accounts have been canceled, I'm sure it'll ring a bell. I know my 4 accounts won't be renewed once they run out in a few days unless this pile of poo is being handled properly and questions asked get at least satisfactory answers.
Edit: customer's VS customers'
My 2 are also cancelled unless something drastic happens and CCP does a complete about face.
No idle threats, my accounts were canceled tonight. I have 4 days left on one and 13 days on the other.
Such a shame because, gamewise, CCP deserves the awards they've won.. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Skaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:47:00 -
[1010]
Edited by: Skaz on 10/02/2007 04:44:42
Originally by: kieron
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
Clearly they haven't...I think further clarification is in order. - -
PINK PINK PINK PINK |
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:50:00 -
[1011]
Edited by: Sephiraa on 10/02/2007 04:49:07
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* We know there are other Devs still in BoB, and we know their names. What assurance do we have that this kind of corruption has come to an end? Do they need to be exposed as well, or will you make an effort on your own to insure the integrity of fair play in this game moving forward?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming? How can the players by sure the corruption is not still ongoing?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten Mothership removed? It would be sad, but I'm sure the community is willing to produce it, if CCP is unable to police themseves internally, as the Kugutsume's banning, and seeming coverup attempts suggest.
* Unban the whistleblower's account. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
Personally, I don't care if T20 keeps his job or not, as I imgaine he'll not take such risks again. What I do care about is the negative impact on the entire EVE community, from the ripple effects of his cheating. For example, would ASCN be dead today, if T20 had chosen differently.
There is more required of CCP, and you better not fail us this time.
Kieron, when you get back to work, please answer to these questions and issues, thanks. Looks like Oveur's character is still in BoB. We need to know how deep this corruption runs, and T20's wrist slap and the subsequent avoidance of answering the questions we all really care about is tremendously frustrating.
Please, PLEASE, speak to these concerns. Even if you refuse to accept 3rd party evidence, your own IP logs should easily be able to reveal the extent of the account sharing that has taken place in EVOL and RKK.
This cannot stand as it is. Something needs to be done.
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Cyrus Ageis
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:50:00 -
[1012]
Edited by: Cyrus Ageis on 10/02/2007 04:51:39
Originally by: Maya Rkell BoB do a better job than any other alliance of keeping their members well informed. Not of the origin of informations, but the whys and the what. Nobody in BoB can say they went into things with their eyes closed, or didn't realize what was going on.
Yes, because every Alliance leader and CEO, both in game and out, makes sure EVERY member, no matter how new, or how low down the totem pole they are, are informed of every single decision made. Do you honestly believe that if you work for someone, that they're going to tell you EVERYTHING about what's going on? That's very naive. If anyone in BoB knew, it was a select few that had dailly direct dealings with T20's BoB pilot, and no others. And in an alliance that size, I doubt VERY seriously that half of the players even came in contact with him, let alone all of them.
Originally by: Maya Rkell That doesn't excuse others actions one bit. That dosn't mean others are not doing the same thing. Because they are.
No one is asking for the players "involved" to be excused. I for one don't like Bob, but I'm not about to go all Salem-witch-trial on them and every single pilot for the actions of a few. Would you have everyone in CCP fired for T20's individual actions? No? Then why apply the same standard to BoB? This happened six months ago. You want to crucify a noob who just joined 4 months ago and managed to get into a corp in BoB?
My thoughts on this: T20 - fire him. No excuses. This is a case of CCP being judged by their OWN rules. They enforce these rules on us, they should be held to the same level of excellence. I don't care that he was "sanctioned" six months ago. He should have been fired.
If the "cyno-net" of shared accounts exists, every player that used those accounts should be baned. CCP has been banning players for EULA violations lately, this should be no exception.
Other than that, no matter what you want, nothing can be substantially proved, so you're not going to get it. Don't bother asking for it.
These are my own personal opinions, and not those of my corporation or alliance.
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The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:51:00 -
[1013]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Jacob Majestic,
"However, I have no reason to lie."
I'm afraid experience has taught me something. You are a goon. That is enough. There is nothing in my mind which can excuse what the Goons have done in terms of hacking the client and cooperating with hackers.
Further, to quote IRC:
<Rigel> We lie because we like it. <Rigel> We lie because we get off on people hating us.
Anyway,
I applaud CCP for keeping the actual criminal of this saga out the game (No, violating company ethics is not a criminal act, hacking IS).
Jacob Majestic isn't just any goon -- he's an alt of The Mitanni, Goonswarm's would-be spy chief. The one who coordinates all their various "black ops". By the way, that includes spamming the boards of other alliances with ****ographic trash.
So sure, he'd lie. He lies professionally, you might say, though he probably enjoys it also.
And he's part of the Goon leadership, which encouraged all their members to systematically violate the EULA by using their portrait modifications. So add cheating to the list. Hypocrisy, too, while you're at it.
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:53:00 -
[1014]
I don't know if this has already been said:
BoB was accused of many things, and for that we were all called liars out on a witchhunt. The whistleblower on all this did nothing but fully cooperate with CCP and it's investigation, wanting an end to this scandal. Instead he was called a hacker for obtaining the information, and then a complete liar for making it all up(which contradicted eachother), and then all his accounts were methodically banned from the game after numerous threats to punish him in real life.
I ask the public, to consider this:
It was the information that kuugutsmen provided, which word for word predicted the allegation that have just been realized as true. However, the information provided goes much, much deeper than what was admitted.
If rigging the T2 BPO lottery was infact true, then how much more of what kuugtsmen posted was actually true?
t20, you were the commander of their Capital Fleet. You were praised, for not only brining in so many of your personal T2 BPOs(which you gave to BoB after you left), but for giving out so much information about capital ships and other mechanics of the game. BoB's high command was so impressed with your high knowledge, that you were promoted to a high-ranking position within weeks of joining.
Not only that, but you blatantly used your direct CCP IP address, and astonishingly your own personal CCP email address to sign up to their internal forums. BoB's high command loved throwing chatlogs around about having "secret infos" from you, t20. Well, now we know what they were talking about.
The blatant account sharing, and the account eBaying that was present within BoB's "Cyno Network" was directly related to you. Are you saying, as their capital fleet commander, that you had absolutely no knowledge and nothing to do with administering their massively EULA-breaking Cyno network of bought and shared accounts? What about all the dread pilots bought on eBay? You had nothing to do with this?
Your "confession" looks nothing more than a weak attempt at damage control. You are trying to save any shred of honestly or dignity you still might have left, by trying to admit to the least damaging crime. This does not bury the hatchet with anyone. and nobody is going to be fooled.
The internet gaming websites were quick to respond to this, but I can't wait to see what the publishers will do.
I haven't broken the EULA or TOS with anything I have said. There's no reason to censor my post, but I'll be suprised if you didnt do it anyway.
Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
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Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 04:56:00 -
[1015]
Originally by: Cyrus Ageis These are my own personal opinions, and not those of my corporation or alliance.
// Paid for by the Friends of Cyrus Ageis for President 08'
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:00:00 -
[1016]
This is Fraud, the company is liable! Who wants to whip up the law suit?
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Gelf
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:02:00 -
[1017]
Lets see a bit of consistency in dealing with this. So far the handling of the whole situation has been a joke. People who have willingly broken rules (yup, no one had a gun to their head) still seem to be in the game or employed, while the rest of us sit in disbelief as more and more information comes out.
I will hold off cancelling accounts to see how this is handled. It's going to take some drastic measures to try and restore some faith in you, but I am not sure it is even possible given your recent conduct in this matter.
I just hope I haven't seriously damaged my retinae from reading this thread.
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Mal Renolds
Caldari Team America World Cops
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:03:00 -
[1018]
So the Devs have cheated created bpo's for Bob to use and create a unfair advantage for Bob (who some might say have a unfair adventage to begin with) why are devs allowed to do this with little or no back lash ? The use of the Bpos have created product and given that alliance a edge (like they needed it too)
Developer play the game? sure i agree but developers join a huge alliance ? No that is wrong period!! and that the whispers are true ...ack!
wtf are you on ? why dont you look at that . better yet why dont you correct that ! Devs can join a corp maybe or some minor alliance then perhaps leave there should deffinately be a rule about this
Gosh I cant hardly comprehend this really happened i thought I hoped it was a lie a player created myth but its not
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:05:00 -
[1019]
Ok the thread above responding to concerns, i hope there is more to come tomorrow because you have only addressed a small number so far as i see it, I am gonna assume it's because it late and a friday night you all went for a beer.
So hopefully more posts in the above thread tomorrow to come from Kieron, the outstanding issues that need to be adressed and I will be as fair handed as I can be about this.
a)People saying T20 should be sacked now obviously didnt read Hilmars blog at all, he was punished at the time and though it was NOT the correct punishment it should not happen again, but....... this whole, it was found out last summer thing, is what is more disturbing right now, because this in itself unearths a lot more questions that need to be answered.
i)Who orignally investigated this matter in Hilmars absence? ii)Why was the community not notified? iii)Why was t20 not sacked at the tim of the incident?
tbh to me it smells of a coverup, a coverup to keep away from the community and to keep T20 in a job, that is the only reason I can see for:
T20 not being dismissed at the time. The BPO's not being pulled from BOB. The community not being notified at all about this.
b)There is clear proof that members within his corp knew that he was a DEV, not just members but leadership, there is evidence that he was supplying one director with priviliged information and then it was being spread throughout BOB leadership, this issue has not been mentioned at all by anyone from CCP.
Address those issues please.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:07:00 -
[1020]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 05:05:27 Cyrus Ageis,
That's not what I said. The "rank and file" of BoB are all experienced players, or they would not be there. There are clear communications. Nonody is blind to things which happen, and some of the events...are well known. Other in the accusations are fabricated, because there's no way so many people would all have kept quiet about them Please don't read things into my post I didn't put there.
And I wasn't refering to the BoB pilots, I was refering to the hacker. But sure, shared accounts? Ban - if you do it evenly and not just to BoB. You realise it'll decimate most alliance leaderships, but hey. And the Goons (and much of ISS, I believe) then need to be banned for hacking the client. Consistancy!
Christopher Scott,
"The whistleblower on all this did nothing but fully cooperate with CCP and it's investigation"
He went public. That isn't fully cooperating. He is a self-admitedly and reasonably well known hacker. At least some of the logs he has "provided" are faked. His site infected some people with a trojan.
"If rigging the T2 BPO lottery was infact true"
There is no evidence that this is how it is done. He might of done, or he might have simply spawned them. We don't have the evidence to call it either way. It would be helpful to know, and premature to comment.
How dirty are YOUR hands, Christopher Scott, that you defend a hacker, a criminal?
//Maya |
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pxmars
Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:08:00 -
[1021]
well I might be double posting on this subject which I feel that ccp has shafted me. First off by letting this go on when they knew the truth about the bpos long before they did anything. I dont want to play in a game where the makers of the game can cheat people. Sorry cheater are the lowest form of life in my eyes. So I have cancel one of my accounts and going to let the others just expire. I not going to pay to be cheated.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:08:00 -
[1022]
I would like to see all of Bob's outposts/pos/capital ships deleted from the game.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:09:00 -
[1023]
Originally by: Nim9i5 I would like to see all of Bob's outposts/pos/capital ships deleted from the game.
I'd like to see you deleted from the game for making legal threats against CCP.
//Maya |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:11:00 -
[1024]
As much as I am disgusted with CCP, I'm sticking with EVE for now, because:
1) My personal experience playing hasn't been negatively impacted by BoB, or CCP devs.
2) I like EVE, despite CCP, not because of CCP.
If I do decide to leave though, it won't be because of these specific improprieties. It will be because of this line:
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
If they refuse to behave like developers, with a bit of professional distance between themselves and their clientele, then they are inviting this type of situation to occur over, and over, and over again.
This is one of those situations where CCP can learn something from the mainstream MMO games, but refuse to, out of nothing but stubborness. EVE isn't going to suddenly become "Hello Kitty Online," or that "other" game with orcs'n'stuff, when the developers refrain from getting involved in player things acting as players.
What it will do is make EVE resemble the high quality, premium experience it deserves to be, and not resemble some pirated greyshard from amatures, that happens to take credit cards.
The "vision" gains nothing from allowing devs to join high profile private gaming clubs like BoB, and do BoB things. I expected more from Hellmar than trying to justify it as an essential development prerogative, and should call it what it is: a bunch of devs that want to hang with the 1337, because the 1337 are their personal friends, that they like better than everyone else. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:11:00 -
[1025]
yea that was dumb of me, why not just buy it off LOL!
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Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:12:00 -
[1026]
Here are my impresssions on the two blog articles.
t20:
I didn't really care all that much, but now I am madder than ever. Of the 3 allegations, the only one that can be proven is the one he admitted to. This amounts to massive bad faith. I don't believe anything he says can be trusted and I will not have any forgiveness until he can conclusively prove his other two 'allegations'. Also, I believe the alliance in question deserves punitive damages for having the T2 BPOs in their possesion (for the time that they did).
As for game mechanics, I need to look into it more, but in order to keep everything on the level, I would expect that if Devs want to play in the future, they release all game mechanics to the players who want them. (I'd especially like to know the math involved for wrecking hits).
Hellmar:
I like the stance taken, and I hope that it is followed through, even though the article is a little fluffy. As per the 'Commitment', I expect t20s characters to be deleted, and he will have his employment terminated at CCP. I would expect this of any Devs who are found to have done misconduct, as per the 'Commitment'.
Conclusion:
I own 3 accounts, and have played for almost a year. Eve is my major hobby, taking up all my spare time, and I love it to death. There is no game after Eve. However, being a citizen of Eve, I expect that Eve is not the "Dev's Sandbox" where they get to have unfair advantages over other players. This is being addressed, however being a Dev naturally gives access to insider information. Thus, I would expect that all Devs should not be involved at all in widespread Alliance conflict, and only participate in Eve where their effect is minimal.
My confidence is shaken, but I believe that the problems will be fixed.
I would expect that *all* of the Dev's accounts are known by CCP, and their IPs and credit cards logged to ensure they are not getting past CCP's watchful eye.
I think the Devs must choose between their job or Eve, because there is no middle ground.
I would expect that in the future the Devs will play Eve, but must have a minimal effect on the game's economy and political map.
Thanks, -Dez --- Dez Erichs, Captain, Agony Unleashed "Veni, Vidi, Caedi" |
Bitchslap
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:14:00 -
[1027]
Edited by: *****slap on 10/02/2007 05:10:52 ban for life , end of storie
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:16:00 -
[1028]
You can't ban him!!! he can easily change his isp -- right now he could be moving his assests on a diff account/isp, selling on market to himself at one isk. He will have no loss, any one with some computer intelligence can get around a ip ban. Especially a hacker!
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Hesh Ballantine
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:16:00 -
[1029]
Originally by: kieron We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
This is simply untrue. Part of the evidence presented by kugutsumen was mail from Dianabolic acknowledging that the BPOs belonged to t20 and that he'd been able to keep control of them. I'd quote that mail but you'll just edit it out or ban me.
Really though, your concern isn't so much the ill will of current players. Like any MMO you need new subscribers to keep the income flowing. What do you think potential customers are going to think of the articles at prominent sites like slashdot? If you keep trying to obfuscate with this blatant scapegoating, you'll all be looking for new jobs, not just t20. You have an amazing game, please stop ****ting on it.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:20:00 -
[1030]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/02/2007 05:18:19
After reading the blogs and statements from CCP on this matter and the fact that it is deemed imperative for CCP employees to play the game to better understand how to improve it......
..... there is only one thing CCP can do to restore confidence in their consumers.
Whilst no CCP employee should lose their livelyhood over this issue as it is a game after all.....
CCP must have the BoB alliance officially disbanded.
I will endeavour to explain why:
Where there is smoke there is fire.... this saying is as old as the hills and has a lot of truth to it. The BoB alliance is now tainted beyond repair.... there was high level knowledge of the fact that Devs were in the alliance and that they may or may not have been assisting the alliance with 'stuff'.... bpo's being the only proven misconduct.
It therefore must be disbanded as a warning for all other alliances and devs within them.
The message to developers in alliances around EVE must be crystal clear....
If you are found guilty of any misconduct or untoward behaviour whilst playing the game in an alliance, it will be the kiss of death for said alliance.
Anything less than this level of punishment in-game for the alliance that has partaken in dev misconduct and this kind of situation will only became engrained in EVE concsiousness.. and the game itself will be die.
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Jonis Sinmaker
Valiant Logistics Inc. Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:21:00 -
[1031]
CCP says there are only a few things that t20 has done, but what have the devs done that no one can prove over the past year or so. I mean come on. There are many things that we have seen happen for BoB that they say was "luck" and if it were anyone else would they have the same "luck"? I don't think so. -------- Semper Fi, Jonis Sinmaker
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:21:00 -
[1032]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 05:21:27 arkan Kador, the most damaging thing which can possibly happen to a game, especially a MMO, is for its developers not to play it. As respected MMO devs like Scott Jennings and Raph Koster have pointed out.
Hesh Ballantine, yes, evidence presented by a criminal. Evidence which cannot be taken at face value. As can be seen from the goons, there appears to be a short step from client hacking to any sort of hacking being acceptable. Ban them, ban them all.
Nez Perces, the only thing to explain is you've never got over losing to BoB once. That saying is complete rubbish, and has eveything to do with panic and scaremongering. Unless you ban the corps playing together - and nothing could be more destructive to the game - it would be pointless and purely symbolic. You're calling for punishments which would do far more damage - scattering thousands of bitter players to other games - than the few hundred who will quit over this (Unless goonfleet is properly banned, of course).
Any more action caused by bitter rumourmongers and scare merchants with a grudge who care nothing for the game and everything for their own focus and lense is uncessary.
//Maya |
Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:22:00 -
[1033]
Originally by: Hesh Ballantine
Originally by: kieron We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
This is simply untrue. Part of the evidence presented by kugutsumen was mail from Dianabolic acknowledging that the BPOs belonged to t20 and that he'd been able to keep control of them. I'd quote that mail but you'll just edit it out or ban me.
Did you just pwn yourself?
The evidence shows that they were T20's and he gave them to BOB, no evidence shows how he got them, as far as proof goes, everyone in RKK could have thought he got them from a research agent just like everyone else.
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Redwolf
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:22:00 -
[1034]
Originally by: Hesh Ballantine
Originally by: kieron We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
This is simply untrue. Part of the evidence presented by kugutsumen was mail from Dianabolic acknowledging that the BPOs belonged to t20 and that he'd been able to keep control of them. I'd quote that mail but you'll just edit it out or ban me.
Really though, your concern isn't so much the ill will of current players. Like any MMO you need new subscribers to keep the income flowing. What do you think potential customers are going to think of the articles at prominent sites like slashdot? If you keep trying to obfuscate with this blatant scapegoating, you'll all be looking for new jobs, not just t20. You have an amazing game, please stop ****ting on it.
Stuff written on a 3rd party site with no association to or controlled by CCP, claiming logs of stuff written on another 3rd party site, again in no way associated or controlled by CCP, is not "evidence", no matter how true it may or may not be.
CCP have no way to measure the veracity of said "evidence" therefore they cannot act upon it.
---- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Ironnight
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:23:00 -
[1035]
t20 for fanfest 2007 host! Im sure many people in the alliances BOB have attacked would love to meet and greet him
Hellmar/kieron just to clarify, you found out about this summer, yet the BPOs stayed in BOB until now, or am I reading this wrong? If yes, I would like to hear the reasons for letting that happen.
It will be interesting to see how many will distance themselfs from BOB after this, very interesting with the wars going on.
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:24:00 -
[1036]
Originally by: Nez Perces
CCP must have the BoB alliance officially disbanded.
Oh god nez, comon please, this is meant to be a serious discussion.
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Vily
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:24:00 -
[1037]
Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/02/2007 05:18:19
After reading the blogs and statements from CCP on this matter and the fact that it is deemed imperative for CCP employees to play the game to better understand how to improve it......
..... there is only one thing CCP can do to restore confidence in their consumers.
Whilst no CCP employee should lose their livelyhood over this issue as it is a game after all.....
CCP must have the BoB alliance officially disbanded.
I will endeavour to explain why:
Where there is smoke there is fire.... this saying is as old as the hills and has a lot of truth to it. The BoB alliance is now tainted beyond repair.... there was high level knowledge of the fact that Devs were in the alliance and that they may or may not have been assisting the alliance with 'stuff'.... bpo's being the only proven misconduct.
It therefore must be disbanded as a warning for all other alliances and devs within them.
The message to developers in alliances around EVE must be crystal clear....
If you are found guilty of any misconduct or untoward behaviour whilst playing the game in an alliance, it will be the kiss of death for said alliance.
Anything less than this level of punishment in-game for the alliance that has partaken in dev misconduct and this kind of situation will only became engrained in EVE concsiousness.. and the game itself will be die.
wrong. you disband bob and you loose eve period.
whats the point in playing if the top of the field can be cleared by something nobody can affect?
you yourself have said you were cancelling your accounts HOW MANY times?
people keep playing EVE because it's the best game out there, and will continue to for a long time.
That being said there is still information that I would like released, before I will be personally satisified. but if i dont get it? I'll still be here. -
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Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:24:00 -
[1038]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Hesh Ballantine, yes, evidence presented by a criminal. Evidence which cannot be taken at face value. As can be seen from the goons, there appears to be a short step from client hacking to any sort of hacking being acceptable. Ban them, ban them all.
If he made stuff up, why would T20 post a blog saying he knowingly and willfully cheated, and that he is really really sorry he got caught? Why would CCP even dignify this with a response?
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:25:00 -
[1039]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Hesh Ballantine, yes, evidence presented by a criminal. Evidence which cannot be taken at face value. As can be seen from the goons, there appears to be a short step from client hacking to any sort of hacking being acceptable. Ban them, ban them all.
Seriously, get off the "criminal" thing.
First off, 'hacking' (AKA "reverse engineering") is NOT illegal in all countries.
However, "Pretexting" (AKA pretending to be someone/something else to gain information like, say, on an enemies message board system) *IS* illegal in most countries (but not in all).
So unless you want all "criminals" in BoB banned for spying on other corp's forums I'd stop saying such things.. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:25:00 -
[1040]
Quote: on recent allegations reported by CCP t20 | 2007.02.09 15:50:42 | NEW | Comments As you might have read and heard, there were recently some allegations posted regarding developer misconduct that basically come down to: Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have. Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics. Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players. All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one. Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true. IÆm here, laying out the facts of what happened in June 2006 so this whole issue -- which jeopardized my colleagues, my company and our community -- can be put behind us, I hope for the better.
The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:
Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Blueprint Spike L Blueprint Sabre Blueprint
Oh FFS let it die.. So t20 gave himself some T2 MISSILE bpos.. Was it fair? Not really.. Was it a gamebreaker for the rest of EvE? Hardly.. Name one alliance or corp.. ONE.. that suffered from this 'horrible' abuse of power.. Like some missiles will change the fukin map..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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Redwolf
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:30:00 -
[1041]
Thread speed has dropped to under 2 posts per minute
---- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:32:00 -
[1042]
Thats because people are starting to realize that this whole affair is a non-event..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:33:00 -
[1043]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Thats because people are starting to realize that this whole affair is a non-event..
...or they're going to sleep..it's getting late in a lot of places.
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:37:00 -
[1044]
Everything presented by kugutzmynameison***** was already well known by many people in the community.
The dirt doesnt stop here though, bobs about as clean as a used tampon. And many members of the community know it.
A few questions,
If it was uncovered over the summer, WHY did he still have the BPO's??????
Will there be an investigation into Aurora. Many members of the community know of wrongdoings and "unplanned events" taking place, and lot of them are linked to DICE.
In my opinion the harshest measures should be taken against those already implicated and the investigation should delve deeper than it already has, things that take place outside of eve should be considered too, such as the BoD forum. If TS+Forums are not allowed as evidence because they do not take place in game then it is just a rediculous waste of time.
Im sure white wolf are happy with their choices now.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:38:00 -
[1045]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:35:02
Originally by: Dagrin RDM ...or they're going to sleep..it's getting late in a lot of places.
Hehe.. Too true.. But seriously how much territory was lost due to the T2 missiles that were given out? Oh right.. none..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Tarri
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:38:00 -
[1046]
Edited by: Tarri on 10/02/2007 05:36:20 Who in their right mind will start playing EVE now. The game where devs cheat?
All you whiners about the hacker.... the messanger does not matter... it is the message he brings which DOES!!!!
Subscription Status:Active Cancellation Pending ----
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Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:39:00 -
[1047]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 05:26:38 Reverend Revelator,
The accusations have been looked at. One is true, and has now been brought to light as something allready acted on. The REST of the accusations... well, the fact nothing has been said is VERY telling about their (in)accuracy.
The accusation was true word for word, down to the exact t2 BPOs CCP admitted was illegally spawned, and then allowed to be used by BoB for more than 6 months, once again confirmed not by the hacker but by CCP offically. In fact, Kugu has continually and consistantly been accused of hacking and stealing peoples secrets, but those accusations in themself pretty much prove he is not a liar. If he made stuff up, there would be no case at all, everyone knows this.
Also, something was brought to light that was in fact not acted upon at all, no discernible punishment for the cheater at all, and the crime itself left in game to continuate itself.
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:39:00 -
[1048]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:35:56
Originally by: Tarri Subscription Status:Active Cancellation Pending
Can I have your stuff?
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:40:00 -
[1049]
i think we all sucked into the greatest scam of all...
1. players whine about a dev cheating lock thread and say we investigate and hope it goes away
2. players keep whining about it fine, we`ll forge a plan without losing T20 as we need him
3. dev must confess but we don`t want to fire him we`ll say it was in the past and that he got punished for it no one can prove otherwise and about the (crap) bpo`s we`ll say it was oversigh or bad judgment, the truth of the(39?) bpo`s stay safe inhouse or it would endup in a rollback of 1 year
3.a dev must confess but can`t let him go or he`ll tell the truth we`ll say it was in the past and that he got punished for it no one can prove otherwise and about the (crap) bpo`s we`ll say it was oversigh or bad judgment, the truth of the(39?) bpo`s stay safe inhouse or it would endup in a rollback of 1 year
4. if the bpo`s were left ingame, ppl will say to remove the isk we`ll just say it is impossible to figure out and who to punish as an excuse
5. willl every one buy it? maybe cause it`s to simple to see
tried to get some sleep and came up with this as my conclusion that investigation took place between the whining and this statement the dmg in bpo`s must be so high, that removing and punishing every one would even destroy the mighty bob in this case
role play the past and use bad judgement as excuse and every one is is clear besides some crap wich will be ignored nway if this is true, it has been 1 of the better implementations of roleplay since launch
this wasn`t discoverd last summer or else it would have been known and the bpo`s would have been released with the destruction and banning of rkk, not to mention the spam of alliance members having so many bpo`s been taken from them
this all is just 1 big ******* lie we`ve all been trapped in to
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Tarri
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:41:00 -
[1050]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:35:56
Originally by: Tarri Subscription Status:Active Cancellation Pending
Can I have your stuff?
You are not funny, coward alt from Imperial Academy.... ----
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:42:00 -
[1051]
Originally by: Vily
whats the point in playing if the top of the field can be cleared by something nobody can affect?
Lets turn that question around...
What is teh point of trying to get to the top of the field when your progress is unaided by Developer help.. aka .. something nobody can affect?
Look.... nobody knows how deep the rabbit hole goes.. or if it does at all... maybe the whole situation with t20 was very innocent.. maybe it wasn't.
The thing is though that the cat is out of the bag.. and for the bag to be closed again, BoB has to cease to exist in its current format.... as a warning.
Anything else.. will be just brushing the issue under the carpet and hoping it will go away.
Some people obviously think this issue will go away.. others don't.
I believe it wont.. not until CCP really put their foot down and make it clear that no alliance is beyond termination should this kind of misconduct come to light.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:44:00 -
[1052]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:40:55
Originally by: Tarri You are not funny, coward alt from Imperial Academy....
Plz quit eve so the rest of us can get on with the GAME.. And if t20 had not had access to the t2 missile bpos you think they would not have had access to t2 missles or even afford them? Like I said its a non-event..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:46:00 -
[1053]
Collective punishment.
Disrupting the game in precisely the way you claim not to want. It's an agenda beyond that, Nez, which you're pushing. Move on. You're effectively calling for bans, because nothing else would stop them playing together - especially in the war in which I'm sure you'll be involved in.
It's sad to see what bitterness can do to a man, Nez.
//Maya |
Tarri
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:46:00 -
[1054]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:40:55
Originally by: Tarri You are not funny, coward alt from Imperial Academy....
Plz quit eve so the rest of us can get on with the GAME.. And if t20 had not had access to the t2 missile bpos you think they would not have had access to t2 missles or even afford them? Like I said its a non-event..
The rest wonŠt be much, coward... ----
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Mark Marlowe
Caldari PLAYBOYS
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:46:00 -
[1055]
I have only read the first 3 pages in this thread but I will read them all.. But I must say this and I havnt seen anybody mention this..
NO DEV, CCP EMPLOYEE OR ASSOCIATE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE A MEMBER OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN A NPC CORP...
Dev and CCP employees can get togeather and play to experience the game without affiliating themselfs with other players, groups, corps or alliances... There is plenty of enjoyment in the game without being in a player Corp/Alliance.
Fairplay....
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Caligulus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:49:00 -
[1056]
If a dev wants to play on tranq they should be tagged as a developer. End of story. There will now and forever be an inherit mistrust of any and every developer in this game. So how is it that T20 managed to retain his job in spite of the CEO of ccp stating that abuse of power is grounds for non-negotiable termination? More lies? From the top?! You expect us to believe anything you guys say?
T20 should be terminated. T20 ruined my respect for all of you guys. EvE will never live this down. Ever...
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:49:00 -
[1057]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Collective punishment.
Disrupting the game in precisely the way you claim not to want. It's an agenda beyond that, Nez, which you're pushing. Move on. You're effectively calling for bans, because nothing else would stop them playing together - especially in the war in which I'm sure you'll be involved in.
It's sad to see what bitterness can do to a man, Nez.
Oh for crying out loud maya... comeon what am I bitter about pls tell me... you know so much about me.... I think I've spoken to you once or twice.
Pls tell me what it is I am bitter about.. cause I don't seem to know.
If you disagree with what I am saying pls provide an argument.. trying to attack me with baseless accusations.. thats sad.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:50:00 -
[1058]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 05:47:51
Originally by: Caligulus If a dev wants to play on tranq they should be tagged as a developer. End of story. There will now and forever be an inherit mistrust of any and every developer in this game. So how is it that T20 managed to retain his job in spite of the CEO of ccp stating that abuse of power is grounds for non-negotiable termination? More lies? From the top?! You expect us to believe anything you guys say?
T20 should be terminated. T20 ruined my respect for all of you guys. EvE will never live this down. Ever...
I'd amend that to say that they can join a player corp and alliance but they should not use their dev powers to any gain.. That being siad if t20 had fiven out rattlesnakes to all the copp then i might have some issues.. But AMMO FFS.. how the hell does that cause an alliance imbalance other than they save a few iskies in the deal?
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:51:00 -
[1059]
I am glad that CCP has had the two recent blogs, however I am concerned in the manner in which they were obtained. I have the distinct impression that if such an ourtrage had not erupted with Kieron's first thread on the manner that this would have been swept under the rug.
I came to EVE from SWG, I left SWG because of SOE's handling of the rollout of the NGE and its incompleteness at launch. In recent days I've seen that same sort of anger being raised by the members of this community and I know well the damage that can be done in such cases as seen by SWG current state.
I believe that the removal of the now confirmed placed BPOs is a good first step. However that is not really enough. It is clear that BoB has prospered from items they should not have gotten. Now some have come up with a figure of 14 billion or so, I have no idea how much they have made. It is clear they should be penalized for the use of items they should not have had. If you don't penalize them, then you will just get people to keep quiet on dev, GM, and other cheating. Thus BoB needs to be penalized this amount of money. If all the BPOs are held by a single corp still then let that corp's wallet be penalized the requisite amount of ISK. If they are scattered among several corps let the burden be shared by all BoB corps.
Kugutsumen as far as I know remains banned. It is clear that he did post personal information which is a violation of the EULA and TOS. All of the accounts that shared his ISP were banned. It is also a well known fact that SirMolle has posted in the past personal information of EVE customers on these forums, including Kugutsumen. SirMolle should be immediately banned from EVE, all accounts that have ever used the same connection Sir Molle uses should be banned effective immediately.
The login records of the various accounts brought up in recent allegations of account sharing need to be checked. If it is clear from this that more than one person is using that account, then that account and all accounts sharing the same internet connection need to be banned. Its a manner of reestablishing order.
I understand that this will cost CCP money in the near term, but I feel such measures need to be enforced in order to maintain the games integrity and long term health. It is also that in the unlikely event someone ever challenged the EULA in a court of law either in the United States or the European Union that if it can be proved that CCP has ignored the EULA on some occasions in the past to save friends or employees then it will damage any case that they could bring forth, possibly to the point of making it seem the EULA is null and void due to such discretionary use.
I feel for the many people that have been affected by this and I feel for the rank and file members of Band of Brothers who were not party to the events that lead to recent allegations.
I have also heard claims that a GM was flying around the Goon moons just prior to the declaration of war. This seems most unusual. If this GM was spying on the Goons for BoB they need to be terminated.
t20 I realize that it was hard for you to write the Blog, but you can't have rules without consequences. You have done some good work for CCP and EVE in the past, but that is now overshadowed by this misdeed. Good luck on your future employment and remember the lessons learned.
Order must remain though if the game is to continue into the foreseeable future, and to have order the rules must be enforced for all equally.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:52:00 -
[1060]
Edited by: Fester Addams on 10/02/2007 05:49:29 First post: Posted - 2007.02.09 20:23:00 My post: Posted - 2007.02.10 05:47:07 During that time 35 pages were filled. Edit: from when I stated my post untill I posted 3 more pages were filled making it an even 38 atm.
The devs are going to have alot to read in a few hours when they get to work.
As for the offence...
I have seen alot of people claiming that it wasnt much of a crime as the gains would not have given all that much isk.
There are a few issues that they are ignoring.
Firstly, its not the value of the item that is the wrongdoing, to me it would not matter if the spawned items were 6 trit spawned because he wanted to build somthing and realized he was those 6 trit short. It is not the value that makes the crime.
It is true that BoB could probbaly have bought the prints, they may even already have the prints but haing a car does not make grand theft auto any less of a crime, likewise having a Porche 911 does not make the theft of a rusty old Lada any less of a crime.
Secondly, qhat many of thise people forget is that there is a second victim in this, if the prints had not been stolen then someone else would have been awarded thise prints in the T2 lottery. I am sure you all know of many many people who have been patiently (or not so) waiting to recieve that all important mail "I've had a breakthrough!" (take it from me, after getting one your whole week will have a silver lining). As they say the isk gain for BoB may be minimal but the person that would otherwise have gotten... say the sabre BPO may have been a struggling player in a small but active corp. The print may have been the thing that pushed them from a struggling highsec corp to a fledgeling 0.0 corp.
The theaft of thise prints robbed the game of this.
Even the ammo prints, as low gain as they are would have made someones day, week or possibly even month.
Im not going to go in on what cource of action CCP should take on t20, that is for CCP to decide however for the record the company policy in thise matters is very clear and that does not leave much space for CCP to act without compromising themselves.
Likewise when it comes to BoB I will not call for pitchforks and torches nor will I claim their innocence. Again it is upp to CCP to decide what is to be done but like with t20 CCP should know that they have all the eyes of EvE on them, sadly for BoB this time their fame and aledged contacts do not work in their favor.
About BoB I will however add that I am dissapointed, getting themselves into this crap is not somthing I would have expected from them, bending the rules yes but bending is not breaking. Sadly for you your reputation in this game will never be the same, you will always at every point be hackled with the cheater blanket wether justified or not.
Then we have this claim that Sir Molle has revealed a players real name and adress... I havent got the foggiest if this is true or not, I sincerely hope it is not but if it is true then CCP's hands are again tied, people have been banned for less. I do not know Sir Molle personally but his name is one of thiose that is known, it is always say when such individuals act badly, lets hope it is not true.
My hope is that this thread can slow down not at 35 pages, very few new points can be brought into the discussion (my above included) and I would suggest we now give CCP a week to sift through things and reply to our questions after wich we can nail them all to the plank again and demand more answers.
/best regards Fester Addams
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Crypt
Gallente Vogon Deconstruction Fleet Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:53:00 -
[1061]
What a cluster****.
I've wondered for quite sometime why all the best Tech 2 BPOs seem to go to the most special/popular of the community and none of them ever seem to find their way into the hands of the lesser known players, now I know why. Favoritism sucks.
If I were an ex member of ASCN I'd be fricken livid about now. Thankfully I'm not so I'm just completely disgusted instead.
Quote: It is a poor sort of man who is content to be spoon-fed knowledge that has been filtered through the canon of religious or political belief
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Dungheap
Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:55:00 -
[1062]
GM's moon-hopping in a system that's coming under conflict. this loads the .dds files into his cache. those files can be copied to other player's cache files. would this have the effect of 'pre-loading' that system into a player's game, so they'd get much less lag than jumping into a system for the first time ?
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:55:00 -
[1063]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Vily
whats the point in playing if the top of the field can be cleared by something nobody can affect?
Lets turn that question around...
What is teh point of trying to get to the top of the field when your progress is unaided by Developer help.. aka .. something nobody can affect?
Look.... nobody knows how deep the rabbit hole goes.. or if it does at all... maybe the whole situation with t20 was very innocent.. maybe it wasn't.
The thing is though that the cat is out of the bag.. and for the bag to be closed again, BoB has to cease to exist in its current format.... as a warning.
Anything else.. will be just brushing the issue under the carpet and hoping it will go away.
Some people obviously think this issue will go away.. others don't.
I believe it wont.. not until CCP really put their foot down and make it clear that no alliance is beyond termination should this kind of misconduct come to light.
You're absolutely right, I don't think the EVE populace *can* forget about all this while BoB is around and CCP and BoB command knows this. Anything BoB has ever done and ever will do in the future will always be suspect and CCP will take the full brunt of the players' anger any time BoB accomplishes anything--legit or not.
Think of the timing..
Right before this hits BoB decs RAGOON+friends. Knowing that BoB has a huge list of enemies that were already waiting to pounce this 'investigation', such as it is, releases its findings 24 hours later.. Suddenly anyone who would have been on the sideline can't wait to get a piece of BoB.
BoB is not meant to survive this current war and for the sake of EVE they simply CAN'T. BoB vs RA+Goons+AAA+D2+IAC+IRON+TCF+CA+MM+SMASH+SNIGG+just about any other 0.0 alliance. BoB isn't meant to survive, they're being sacrificed as well.
If BoB could somehow survive such a massive force the amount of posts crying "See! They truly are BoD!" would threaten to implode the entire internet.
I'm sure CCP will probably reward the BoB command with 12 month GTCs for their sacrifice.
(Yes, my tin foil hat fits just fine) =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Liet Traep
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:55:00 -
[1064]
Originally by: Draaken Edited by: Draaken on 10/02/2007 04:24:26
Originally by: Liet Traep I'm halfway done with cancelling my accounts.
Don't threaten, do. If they come back on Monday morning to find that one third of their customers' accounts have been canceled, I'm sure it'll ring a bell. I know my 4 accounts won't be renewed once they run out in a few days unless this pile of poo is being handled properly and questions asked get at least satisfactory answers.
Edit: customer's VS customers'
I've cancelled one account already. I'm still waffling on this one. Not an easy decision for me to make. I think a part of it will be if BoB gets any more mysterious "lucky breaks." I still can't believe not one person in RKK got a ban over this. I think if it had been any other alliance there'd been a big booting. But I don't think BoB has been or is being treated the same as everyone else. I just don't trust CCP when it comes to them. I'm still in shock about how badly CCP bungled this.
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QwaarJet
Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:56:00 -
[1065]
This whole incident makes me sick to my stomach. Why bother playing EVE at all? I already know poeple who have cancelled their accounts over this, and if I didn't have so much energy put into this game, I would do the same thing.
I still cannot believe t20 hasn't been dismissed. He's been at the centre of corruption allegations for some time.
You guys may be forced into action however, because I don't think you quite grasp how big this is. People aren't going to just "move on" because t20 spilled the beans on some of what has happened. This incident is here to stay, and could sadly be the death of EVE if this level of corruption continues.
"Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!" |
Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 05:56:00 -
[1066]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus And if t20 had not had access to the t2 missile bpos you think they would not have had access to t2 missles or even afford them? Like I said its a non-event..
So it's ok to steal if you are rich enough to pay for it anyways?
Were you on the Winona Ryder jury?
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:03:00 -
[1067]
If that were true it would be even more damning. Is that another question we should ask? Was this an issue that was pulled out from under the rug and why did you ever think that that was the correct decision? ----- *results may vary*
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Primus Centarus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:04:00 -
[1068]
Edited by: Primus Centarus on 10/02/2007 06:02:22
Originally by: Maya Rkell Stuff
Maya... you do realize that these message boards aren't like the others out there, right? There's no "post count" for you to bump up. You don't need to personally answer each and every post made on here like you work for CCP......
Or do you? Wait... you're not a Dev, are you?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:04:00 -
[1069]
Originally by: Rodney Caston
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus And if t20 had not had access to the t2 missile bpos you think they would not have had access to t2 missles or even afford them? Like I said its a non-event..
So it's ok to steal if you are rich enough to pay for it anyways?
Were you on the Winona Ryder jury?
Am I saying its right what he did? of course not.. But step back a few feet and look at what was done.. Missiles.. Thats all.. Now I'm sure your all thinking what else was done by t20 but i'm fairly certain it was just the missiles.. I mean really how much of an advantage does some T2 missiles give anyone? No doubt t20 thought the same thing.. What harm could come from spawning some T2 missile bpos.. You still have to have a clue about warfare to use them to gain territory and last itme I checked T2 missiles were availible in every region in an excess of stock.. This whole ordeal is just a 'flame CCP for cheating' and rightly so I guess but after you take all the consequenses into your head you should realize its a NON-EVENT..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:07:00 -
[1070]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/02/2007 06:04:40
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Nez Perces, I once respected you in Eve. But FIX lost. Please, let it go. It was amicable enough at the time.
I'm afraid you are very much mistaken... FIX never lost to BoB.... FIX lost to the CODA coalition ... and I actually stopped being in FIX before that war even kicked off.
So you might want to reasses your opinion on me or at least the reasons why you hold them.
When I was a FIX JCoS... both BoB and FIX ended up wanting to NAP eachother.. we signed a NAP on equal terms as equals.
And even now FIX is a BoB ally...
So I have no idea where you are coming from with all this stuff.
Seriously if you wanna have a go at me find something that makes sense.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:07:00 -
[1071]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 06:04:27 Primus Centarus, I do not and never have worked for CCP. I'm bored and waiting for other people to finish something so I can do my bit and go to bed. And yes, it is like 6am here in the UK.
No tinfoil hats here, I'm afraid.
Nez, pull the other one. I was there, remember. And this really IS a sideline.
//Maya |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:08:00 -
[1072]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Am I saying its right what he did? of course not.. But step back a few feet and look at what was done.. Missiles.. Thats all.. Now I'm sure your all thinking what else was done by t20 but i'm fairly certain it was just the missiles.. I mean really how much of an advantage does some T2 missiles give anyone? No doubt t20 thought the same thing.. What harm could come from spawning some T2 missile bpos.. You still have to have a clue about warfare to use them to gain territory and last itme I checked T2 missiles were availible in every region in an excess of stock.. This whole ordeal is just a 'flame CCP for cheating' and rightly so I guess but after you take all the consequenses into your head you should realize its a NON-EVENT..
From t20's blog: Quote: # Spike L Blueprint # Sabre Blueprint
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Aphotic Raven
Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:09:00 -
[1073]
Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 10/02/2007 06:06:20 Im looking forward to the coming fights with BoB, I'd like to see eve band together to take them down this time. Its only just...
Tick Tock
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The Libertine
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:11:00 -
[1074]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
I think I just found my new sig.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:11:00 -
[1075]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Am I saying its right what he did? of course not.. But step back a few feet and look at what was done.. Missiles.. Thats all.. Now I'm sure your all thinking what else was done by t20 but i'm fairly certain it was just the missiles.. I mean really how much of an advantage does some T2 missiles give anyone? No doubt t20 thought the same thing.. What harm could come from spawning some T2 missile bpos.. You still have to have a clue about warfare to use them to gain territory and last itme I checked T2 missiles were availible in every region in an excess of stock.. This whole ordeal is just a 'flame CCP for cheating' and rightly so I guess but after you take all the consequenses into your head you should realize its a NON-EVENT..
From t20's blog: Quote: # Spike L Blueprint # Sabre Blueprint
OMG! He had some gate camping T2 sniper ammo too!!!!!!!!! Your right.. He gave an unfair advantage to his alliance..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:12:00 -
[1076]
Originally by: Aphotic Raven Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 10/02/2007 06:06:20 Im looking forward to the coming fights with BoB, I'd like to see eve band together to take them down this time. Its only just...
Tick Tock
Aphotic, I'd be with you...except you have goonswarm. I can't overlook that or the stunning level of hypocrisy which it involves. Ditch them and we can talk.
//Maya |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:12:00 -
[1077]
Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 10/02/2007 06:09:29
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 05:21:27 arkan Kador, the most damaging thing which can possibly happen to a game, especially a MMO, is for its developers not to play it. As respected MMO devs like Scott Jennings and Raph Koster have pointed out.
You don't need to join private, professionalized gaming clubs, fraternize with select patrons on a more personal level, and pursue private gaming club interests to play the game.
If you did, the majority of players in EVE couldn't play the game.
See, Hellmar confuses the things developers can control, with the things that no development could ever control.
He says things like, "in order to do justice to the game, we must share your frustrations, joys, successes and failures," but its clear to me that he's just trying to come up with some crazy reason for devs to become card-carrying members of private patron alliances, because there is no honest, developmentally related reason for them to be there.
Sharing BoB's, D2's, or even my "frustrations, joys, successes, and failures" doesn't solve the problems that only developers can solve, like balancing damage metrics, or reducing lag, or getting an Amarr Emperor on the throne. All it does is confuse the developers, and makes them think the issues they cannot influence through development are issues they can.
Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:15:00 -
[1078]
Tarkan Kador, since you have solved the play issues, please evemail me in game and we can discuss how to use your soloution (which has so far escaped the entire gaming industry) to make money. Lots of money.
//Maya |
Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:15:00 -
[1079]
So where are all the BOB spinmeisters now?
Seriously, thank God that CCP has their EULA or they'd have been sued repeatedly by now. I'm not wondering how much ISK was made by BOB. . .I'm wondering how much ISK was LOST by alliances like ASCN. I mean, how many outposts did those guys have? Of course they could have lost their space w/o BOB being helped by the devs, but getting free T2 ammo and whatnot sure does go a long way to making their downfall a lot easier/quicker.
Of course, T20 only admits to the T2 BPO situation because that's the only wrongdoing of his with solid evidence at this point. Does anyone really think that he wasn't passing info, secrets, and God knows what else to BOB along with the BPOs? If he's willing to hand over those BPOs than I'm sure he was willing to let BOB know where their enemies were, what they were flying, when events were going to happen, etc. and so forth. T20 should be looking for work right now instead of putting out this nonsense blog that his bosses prolly MADE him write.
Sir Molle should also be gone for good. If Kugutsumen is axed for exposing CCPs dirty underbelly and giving out real info then Molle should get a boot right up his keister as well.
Seriously, the problem here is the mindset of folks at CCP. They don't see devs playing the game as wrong. They don't see their employees holding back major parts of the game from the players (T2 BPOs, lord knows what else) as wrong. It's fairly obvious from the complete and utter non-action on this issue - before an outside source spilled the beans - that CCP had no plans whatsoever to rectify this situation. Thus, it clearly points to a bias towards certain players in the game (BOB) that has overridden their concerns for the playerbase as a whole. This bias has spilled over to all parts of their business from inside Tranquility, to EVE-O, even to EON which isn't officially run by CCP, right? CCP needs to learn how to seperate the beer drinking, fanfest, interacting with their customers hoopla from running their business. Drafting a better code of ethics might help as well. Oh yeah, and hire someone like me with a communications degree and a PR background to replace kieron as the official spokesman for CCP so you don't have these vague, weird, nonsensical "informational" posts. Oh yeah, but first you gotta lose the bias and quit lying to your customers. That's the first step. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture! |
Primus Centarus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:17:00 -
[1080]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus OMG! He had some gate camping T2 sniper ammo too!!!!!!!!! Your right.. He gave an unfair advantage to his alliance..
DPJ, "Sabre Blueprints" are used to make these.
Does that LOOK like missiles/ammo to you?
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:19:00 -
[1081]
Originally by: Rodney Caston
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus And if t20 had not had access to the t2 missile bpos you think they would not have had access to t2 missles or even afford them? Like I said its a non-event..
So it's ok to steal if you are rich enough to pay for it anyways?
Were you on the Winona Ryder jury?
Dont forget that the true victim is the person that didnt get the BPO through the lottery.
Those 12bil isk may not be much to BoB but to a small player its more than enough to feel like a very very rich player.
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Tarri
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:19:00 -
[1082]
Originally by: Primus Centarus
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus OMG! He had some gate camping T2 sniper ammo too!!!!!!!!! Your right.. He gave an unfair advantage to his alliance..
DPJ, "Sabre Blueprints" are used to make these.
Does that LOOK like missiles/ammo to you?
Lol, donŠt bother about him... ----
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:20:00 -
[1083]
Ahh well thats a bit different I guess but still Dictors are in every region to buy for all.. Its a case of the UN calling out some third world country for buying some AK-47's on the black market when they are already spread across the whole world.. It just done for the flashy headlines..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Gyny
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:21:00 -
[1084]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus OMG! He had some gate camping T2 sniper ammo too!!!!!!!!! Your right.. He gave an unfair advantage to his alliance..
You're tap dancing down jack-ass ally;
The T2 Sabre BPO is a SHIP, not Ammo ... you know, the big metal things that fly thru space? They normally have lights on them, and some look like a giant tylenol.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:21:00 -
[1085]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Am I saying its right what he did? of course not.. But step back a few feet and look at what was done.. Missiles.. Thats all.. Now I'm sure your all thinking what else was done by t20 but i'm fairly certain it was just the missiles.. I mean really how much of an advantage does some T2 missiles give anyone? No doubt t20 thought the same thing.. What harm could come from spawning some T2 missile bpos.. You still have to have a clue about warfare to use them to gain territory and last itme I checked T2 missiles were availible in every region in an excess of stock.. This whole ordeal is just a 'flame CCP for cheating' and rightly so I guess but after you take all the consequenses into your head you should realize its a NON-EVENT..
Do you honestly believe that the BPOs were ALL that happened? (BTW, if the BPOs are so crappy when will my set be delivered?)
"Hey, guys, you may want to try to get ahold of any Expanded Cargohold I BPO you can.. I hear some nifty things will be happening to them soon.."
"Hey, we should really take system ABC-123 soon" (a week later patch notes mention a new plex added to system ABC-123)
"Hey guys, perhaps we should put a PoS at (insert "random" moon). I, uh, 'scanned' "it" and see that (insert super rare reaction ingredient) spawned there" (with "it" being the game db)
How are we to ever *really* know if there isn't a favorable "typo" in the officer spawn rates in BoB space?
What about the more serious allegations of mass account sharing?
Why are BoB members still in the game even after EULA violations when others aren't?
The list could go on and on. Some are pure tin foil hattery, some are viable, some even likely happened. None have anything to do with the BPOs. Besides, have you ever heard of a "red herring"? Those are the only BPOs we're being told about. It would be like risking your job by taking office supplies if those were the only BPOs.. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Bubonlc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:22:00 -
[1086]
this saddens me. hope ccp tells us the full truth, instead of trying to cover this up.
sad
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:23:00 -
[1087]
Originally by: The Libertine I think I just found my new sig.
By all means use it. Its from an old t20 post (Linkage) where he discusses people finding out dev alts and is a rather interesting read in light of this new information.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:25:00 -
[1088]
Originally by: Gyny
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus OMG! He had some gate camping T2 sniper ammo too!!!!!!!!! Your right.. He gave an unfair advantage to his alliance..
You're tap dancing down jack-ass ally;
The T2 Sabre BPO is a SHIP, not Ammo ... you know, the big metal things that fly thru space? They normally have lights on them, and some look like a giant tylenol.
K.. How about we ban all Logoffskies? Oh Wait.. O.0 would be empty..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Mr Antisocial
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:25:00 -
[1089]
Kieron, I want to say thanks for starting the new thread replying to some of the items brought up by others in the community. First off I want to say I understand what you've replied to and can understand the reasons you have talked about as far as T20 not being terminated. I guess what bothers me the most about this particular incident is: How do I as a customer know that this isn't normally acceptable throughout CCP and the only reason you guys addressed this one is because the facts got out to the community.
There seems to be talk on the thread about people shooting through POS shields and the like from others. Is this another way a dev can cheat the system in place?
I just want to know I can trust CCP and their devs in the future.
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Rennard
Aku Soku Zan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:26:00 -
[1090]
Is t20 still working in ccp?
Because i think i recently saw him on irc as an operator of an official channel. Shouldn't they suspend his powers until investigation is complete?
I mean the guy knows he is gonna be kicked, he is got nothing to lose now. I would expect anything from him before he goes...
like a parting gift for his friends...
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Pravest Dall
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:26:00 -
[1091]
Once again certain alliances are using this NON-EVENT to further their own little ingame agendas - shame on you AAA, goons. A dev made a mistake with little ingame consequenses - but OMG - the world has ended!!! CCP has dealed with it - move on.
As for the other allegations illegally obtained by Kugutsumen. What the hell is CCP supposed to do without proof? Except for the postings by a known criminal (hacking like his is a criminal offense in many countries - he IS a criminal in my eyes) - there is none. Some of it is true - but how easy is it to insert 'extra' stuff in there to further his own agenda?
get over it , move on or quit - EVE will go along great without you anyway.
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Zylatis
AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:26:00 -
[1092]
i agree, this turn of events is highly depressing. i had such faith and hope in ccp as being different, detached from the rest of the evil corporate and corrupt world, instead it seems they created their own where they have cart blanc
whilst you guys have done something, and FINALLY admitted whats going on, you should be worried more about the demands and expectations of the hundreds of thousands of subscribers with very real money and time invested and very real concerns, more than the fate of someone, however close you all may be, who effectively broke the law (of eve).
PS: if i end up at the bottom of a river with concrete boots you know why
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:31:00 -
[1093]
Originally by: Pravest Dall Once again certain alliances are using this NON-EVENT to further their own little ingame agendas
QFT..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:33:00 -
[1094]
People crying this is a non-event, drop those bpo's in my hangar please, I'm sure they won't mean nothing.
Looking at BoB's collection of bpo's, looks like those were the only ones they didn't had already (if the list is correct and I think it is). Who can assure me that they got them all fairly. And we all know it only takes one or two to start gathering isk to buy all the others.
Not claiming for t20 employment terminated, but having kugu's accounts banned and t20 getting away with a slap on his wrist and sirmolle breaking eula (from what I read this was clear), and all the other bob involved with this just keep playing untouchables, this just screams NOT FAIR.
Been playing for almost 3 years, there was always rumours that BoB had dev help, now we know at least one accusation was true, was this a one time event or is just the tip of the iceberg.
Last, while I could care less if t20 was the titan pilot in bob or lead the capital fleet I always was disenhearted at CCP's lack of will to fix the tech 2 market, which imo is one of the more important things in eve, is what makes an alliance powerfull, having an infinite source of isk to feed all their ship needs, while every other alliance has to spend 95% of the time carebearing to be able to afford something BoB has for free, so the can pvp 99% of the time.
I'm sad atm, but we'll get over it as in rl it pays to have friends in high places, meritocracy is an utopic word. Sad, truly sad.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:36:00 -
[1095]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Caliwyrm O'Libr, the cargo expanders was because they were changed on SiSi. Period. I know this from logging on there and checking something not entirely related, and I only failed to get a cargo expander I BPO on TQ shortly after one by 5 mil:/
Anyway, the saga is over, the result proclaimed. You're throwing tinfoil *everwhere.*
I'm amused by the people who don't think they can crush BoB in-game, because sure as heck eagle eyes are going to catch ANY cheating by the devs in this war. Thing is, I don't think they will either, if only because of Goonfleet's own enemies.
Oh, so the dev's themselves didn't know about the changes BEFORE they went on SiSi?
At nearly 1200 posts and counting I don't think many people share the "this is a non-event" mantra.
For the 'average' player to move beyond this scandal BoB cannot exist. As long as BoB exists than your average frustrated gamer will only be reminded of this and get even more frustrated. I honestly don't think BoB is meant to survive this conflict with Ragoon+friends. The whole "Out of sight, out of mind" thing. It is literally impossible for them to hold off what seems like 70%+ of the EVE 0.0 population. BoB goes out quickly, the majority of the population puts it behind them now that there is no more BoB and CCP gets rid of this HUGE headache. I'm sure CCP will even reward BoB on the WDLside with some free GTCs.
=======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
1337tong
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:37:00 -
[1096]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani Bloody hell. Are you going to be re-instating those 7 accounts you banned? Because frankly, the guy deserves having his accounts back.
isnt the penalty for hacking usually a prison sentence?
in my eyes regardless of the outcome. he still hacked to get the information so he deserves nothing and got what was coming to him
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:37:00 -
[1097]
Really if you take all the territory gained by t20's actions you might have enough to seed a chia pet.. Well.. Maybe half of one..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:38:00 -
[1098]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 05:48:55
Reverend Revelator, that one word a criminal hacker says is true does not mean a single other word he says is true, and must not be subjected to identical examination. After all, a single truth in a mountain of lies has often been used to sell the entire thing as truth.
So in other words, the proof of his lying is that he told the truth one time? That there was no cynonet account sharing, no insider information given? All obvious lies, completeley ridiculous accusations, which only idiots would believe?
You would have done a great job in the Ministry of Truth, only I'm thinking that might have been hard combining with your career in the Ministry of Love.
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:42:00 -
[1099]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 06:39:29 Caliwyrm O'Libr, the buying frenzy was after they'd been seen to change on Sisi. Really, stop tinfoiling. And I never said it was nothing.
The average player does not even know this happened, and if they did they'll see two big bullies fighting. You're projecting your own feelings. The forces arrayed against them are hardly "overwhelming". Your lack of understanding about alliance warfare...is, I'm afraid, something I cannot easily rectify.
And yes, tinfoil more..but if you're going to be unhappy, there are plenty of other MMO's out there run by other companies. Thanks.
Ishmael Hansen,
"from what I read this was clear"
A hacker's word ain't the gospels.
Reverend Revelator, one thing he said was true. You're then uncritically accepting everything else he said. That's wrong. And hey, Germinate's fine these days. You really don't have to try and make jokes about that.
//Maya |
magmorel
Caldari GalacTECH Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:42:00 -
[1100]
My only contribution is can i have those characters from those people cancelling.
Yes it truly is sad to see where my money is going every month. But i also know there isn't any other MMO out there that has this much of a community concerned about its game, WOW doesn't, they are all pre-teen kids who click fast. This thread really isnt a flame or bash its people actually caring about whats going on with there money and time. And if devs can just dismiss its subscribers like nothing, really is a shame.
Good luck to all involved.
T2 violin FTW adds 20% pity dont care to each level penalty to complain |
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Deepspace Wanderer
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:42:00 -
[1101]
you know, for a "non-event", this is all over the internet.
just google "eve online dev misconduct"
something will have to be done, or this games reputation will go completely down the crapper.
Which is too bad, because, even in spite of this scandal, this is the best MMO out there right now.
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Terawatt
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:42:00 -
[1102]
Edited by: Terawatt on 10/02/2007 06:40:14 I have a few questions that have yet to be addressed:
1) Why were the BPs spawned in the summer allowed to reside in the RKK corp hangers until the entire community became aware of their existence and not immediately once t20 was removed from BoB? As for the billions of isk brought in from them, perhaps that cannot be retracted, however all existing BPCs and Sabres built from said BPO could easily be erased. Granted it might not the the best solution, but it is a thought.
2) I do not feel the issue of the leaked Aurora event and the Hel mothership has been sufficiently addressed. We know the information was leaked and certain groups had the resourced for the collection of this item in place prior to when the reward was announced? I fail to understand how there was not an immediate investigation, or retraction of the reward (you could say it was flawed and make it explode randomly). I cannot simply accept that logs do not go back that far as no network administrator worth more than 2 cents would know a backup system would need to be implemented, providing daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly backups, drilling down even further as necessary. There must be an archived copy of the logs from the timeframe in question that can be reviewed.
I feel both of these issues need to be addressed as I am sure dozens of sabres built from the illegitimate BPO and the Hel in question are currently involved in operations against my alliance.
3) Finally I would like to know what information was found in regards to the messages between the BoB directorate and the known dev accounts. I am in now way stating that the entire BoB alliance was involved in any misconduct, however I find it difficult to believe that due how things played out noone was aware. I know I would find it strange if one of our directors left the corp, but allowed us to keep 5 tech 2 bpos.
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Rigoletto
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:45:00 -
[1103]
ISk Made, BPO bought witht those isks to make more money...
BOB did take an udge advantage bout this... Even if trustly players and others wich paid to play have to pay for that matter, be so... Sad for them... but for the entire community will be fair.
On a recent matter with Chaos d'haussen, bout ISK paid on EBAY, not only his cousin got banned for selling isk, but all player with over 1 B donation from him got their isks taken away by CCP... and they didn t wait ... Players logging with neg 2 B on their account ... (at end they put it at 0 isk...)
CCP, the policy you doing for Hacker, EBAY sellers, should be done even to an alliance : FACT IS : 1 or more CCP EMPLOYES CHEATED, Roll BAck from that cheat should be apply.
And when Do CCP gonna make a VETO for CCP EMployees joining an alliance of player paying to be there to simply avoid this again ... ?
ATM Cancelling subscription... I m not gonna pay for a game Cheated...
Rigoletto/Chorea.
Life is like a chocolate box, you never know what you gonna pick up. |
Noreen
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:45:00 -
[1104]
This is a reply to the original post from CCP, I have not read the first 39 pages as I'm a paying customer and should not be held accountable to go through all other customer complaints that are filed against you, here are mine!
1) One of your employees discriminated against me in the services that you provide by providing preferential treatment to their friends. Your reply of "sorry it wont happen again is insufficient", I do not find enough proof that this company is able to monitor its employees to the standards it claims and is unwilling to take the measure (removal of all ccp employee private characters from game) to ensure you deliver the product that you promise.
2) The allegations made against Developer's bias because of personal interest in the welfare of certain alliances are being side stepped by using the employee "t20" as a scapegoat, this issue is no where near resolved and I as a customer strongly belive that the misconduct has ranged further then just this incident, to include, the following a) Compromised event staff where alliance knew locations and rewards before hand b) Placement of new resources (DeDs) in the EvE universe to favor an alliance c) Allegations of high level officer spawns in favored alliance space d) Developer encouraged use of alliance wide practice of bending game mechanics to favorable outcomes outside the known/documented area to customers (e.g node exchange points, unpublished module paths, hidden module effects (e.g certain carrier hidden cap bonus), or ability to scout ahead in CCP owned accounts for prefered alliances.
I understand that some of these allegations may not be provable at this point looking at the past, but CCP has not put into any light what measures it has or is willing to take to over see these effects, in perspective losing the faith that its customers have bestoyed upon CCP.
3) CEO's decision to let Developers continue playing on their personal accounts is a conflict of interest for your customers and is unacceptable, the reason given is non-justifiable as test server can provide all game mechanics for the developers to create their own community.
To make things right with your customers I suggest that all CPP staff remove their personal characters from EvE. Failing to do so will further raise speculation about the integrity of CCP corporation and the ripples of which would soon effect your financial health with bad publicity and lowering subscription. For years EvE has thrived as being a tight nit community of players, a niche where developers and players work together for the advancement of the future of MMORPGs. Today we feel CCP have left the players call for justice unheard and gone out of its way to protect its own personal interests, you have to regain the trust of your customers or risk having EvE Online written in the history books along side other MMORPG's who once could have been great.
Thank you for your time and consideration, contact me on personal address if required.
Long Term CCP customers and stakeholder
-Noreen (Main character)
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:47:00 -
[1105]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 06:45:36 Terawatt,
1) Bear in mind that many of those sabres might be in the hands of people unconnected with BoB, since BOB products can end up on the market and are bought in good faith. So it's not even that simple.
2) Aurora events are typically discussed with alliances beforehand, if you didn't know that. Otherwise the event tends to go badly wrong and accusations of bias and disrupting fleet battles are thrown.
Also, you missed:
3) Why were goonfleet not banned en-mass for the client-side hack they did.
Noreen, I'm sorry you hate Eve so much. Devs not being in touch with their game leads to disasters like the SWF NGE, and in a PvP game things will go wrong MUCH quicker. If you have a magic soloution to the issues - and frankly no alternative for proper gameplay has been found - please present the full soloution. Handwaving "it will be okay" is NOT supported by the evidence, I'm afraid.
//Maya |
Ash Donai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:50:00 -
[1106]
Originally by: kieron To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
Let's just get a couple things straight: #1 Players being ticked off at a developer cheating doesn't have anything to do with being "more emotional". How dare you even talk to customers that way?!? Players put TRUST into the people who run EVE, TRUST that every player is playing on even ground given comparable circumstances. When a CCP employee breaches that TRUST, then it's not just the "more emotional" customers who get upset. People get upset because what has happened is WRONG, yet no reasonable action was taken to address this wrongdoing.
OMG, he lost his toon in RKK! Who cares, someone with his standing will obtain a new toon just like it within minutes of the old one being deleted (or renamed?).
#2 No, terminating t20 would not be unfair, and he would not be punished twice. Terminating t20 would remedy CCPs faulty original response to this event and bring the response in line with practiced and accepted policy.
Terminating t20 is the only reasonable course of action, anything short of that is just CCP attempting to make the appearance of smoothing things over without to take any credible corrective action.
Keeping t20 employed send the message that devs and those whom they assist are above the "law".
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Rustiko
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:50:00 -
[1107]
Quote: null
Here is a quote from Hellmar's Dev Blog
Originally by: The CommitmentUnfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters.
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct. Quote: null
So what was the punishment the first time? How can this guy not be fired, this is just silly.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:51:00 -
[1108]
I'll tell you one thing.. WoW would never have this much Psychological Warfare and Opportunistic Dis-Information mongering going on.. Maybe having some of the best and brightest in your game isn't the optimal playerbase after all..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 06:53:00 -
[1109]
Originally by: Maya Rkell 3) Why were goonfleet not banned en-mass for the client-side hack they did.
I'm confused ...
So if you want to ban goon for EULA violations; then why aren't you also asking for BoB to be banned as well?
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Mjnari
Empyreum
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 06:54:00 -
[1110]
Originally by: Redwolf Thread speed has dropped to under 2 posts per minute
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Thats because people are starting to realize that this whole affair is a non-event..
No, it's because no one summarized the dev post in Russian or Chinese (oh wait, they've their own server now) yet.
------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi. |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:54:00 -
[1111]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
But AMMO FFS.. how the hell does that cause an alliance imbalance other than they save a few iskies in the deal?
People are not upset about the BPOs, but the fact that they were provided, that cheating has occured and there are a lot of other accusations of other misconduct, uneven application of the EULA, abuse of privilages, etc.
Ammo BPOs, titan, 1 isk - who cares what, it is the why, the who and the how that has people honked off. Attempts to beguile people away from their morals with FUD does you no service.
-AS |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 06:56:00 -
[1112]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 06:39:29 Caliwyrm O'Libr, the buying frenzy was after they'd been seen to change on Sisi. Really, stop tinfoiling. And I never said it was nothing.
The average player does not even know this happened, and if they did they'll see two big bullies fighting. You're projecting your own feelings. The forces arrayed against them are hardly "overwhelming". Your lack of understanding about alliance warfare...is, I'm afraid, something I cannot easily rectify.
And yes, tinfoil more..but if you're going to be unhappy, there are plenty of other MMO's out there run by other companies. Thanks.
And a few months ago it was a running joke for BoB players to have cute sigs with things like "Log in as Dev? Y/N" in their sigs. Doesn't seem to be anyone laughing now.
For the record, the buying frenzy for the GENERAL POPULACE was after it went live on Sisi. I only used the stupid Cargo Expander BPO as a mere example of how a dev sharing upcoming (and not publically konwn) knowlege of upcoming changes could DIRECTLY impact the game beyond just spawning items for themselves.
As for the 'average' EVE player.. Word travels FAST. Only 2 people out of the 12 that followed me to Eve from DAoC visit Eve-O. Yet they all found out about this tonight on Vent. A dozen or so gaming and news sites have this story already (Slashdot alone has had 3 stories in 3 days about it).
BTW, what do you think all this unanswered bashing is doing to the morale of BoB? Not even the mightiest of the BoB Forum Warrior squad is posting with their mains. From a simple psychological point of view the anti-BoB coalition has the upper hand. They now have 'righteousness' on their side while even the newest (and truly innocent) BoB grunt is marked as a 'cheater' by the general population. I still stand by my prediction: BoB is going to lose this war. For the game community to heal they must. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 06:57:00 -
[1113]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
But AMMO FFS.. how the hell does that cause an alliance imbalance other than they save a few iskies in the deal?
People are not upset about the BPOs, but the fact that they were provided, that cheating has occured and there are a lot of other accusations of other misconduct, uneven application of the EULA, abuse of privilages, etc.
Ammo BPOs, titan, 1 isk - who cares what, it is the why, the who and the how that has people honked off. Attempts to beguile people away from their morals with FUD does you no service.
Absolutely.. But on another note how many BoB haters are in this thread right now just slavering at the chops to get any dig they can in? Psychological Warfare FTW..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Zothike
RABBLE-RABBLE
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 06:57:00 -
[1114]
One of the main problem with this problem is that BoB is not a little nor a medium alliance that own one or too region since a long period and only Defend the owned region against attacker and try to maintain and make theyre region to prosper and build a little empire, if it was the case the damage would be by VERY far less important
But BoB is a Griefing alliance , that only purpose is to destroy alliances to show that they are 'the best' they are ruining and had ruined Thousands of players fun and putted Thousands of others in disgrace making them BoB slave/pets making them crawling to have access to 0.0
CCP want to make ppl come to 0.0 ? great! 'Come to 0.0 to be grieffed and/or exploited by the company that make you paying for the game'
ASCN wanted to build and empire and was on good way to it, Feythabolis was crowded with ppl 30-60 ppl all the time in AZN and ascenia had the best Market ingame , almost everything and with prices often lower than in empire, now AZN have between 0-5 peeps and market is completly dead , congratulation BoB and congratulation for CCP for helping the game going as they wish to go
Stay in Empire guys to avoid (at some level) to be griefed with CCP blessing or leave the game to be 100% to not wasting your time and money
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:01:00 -
[1115]
signed. The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:02:00 -
[1116]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Absolutely.. But on another note how many BoB haters are in this thread right now just slavering at the chops to get any dig they can in?
Logical Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:
1. Person A makes claim X. 2. Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X. 3. Therefore claim X is false.
1. Person A makes claim X. 2. Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances. 3. Therefore X is false.
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: "Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."
There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests. For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not. However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to say this obviously does not make her claim false.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:04:00 -
[1117]
Your point?
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:04:00 -
[1118]
devs have sisi let them cheat there.atm its the only thing they are good at. The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in the EVE Universe |
Rigoletto
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:11:00 -
[1119]
Originally by: Noreen
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2007 06:45:36
Noreen, I'm sorry you hate Eve so much. Devs not being in touch with their game leads to disasters like the SWF NGE, and in a PvP game things will go wrong MUCH quicker. If you have a magic soloution to the issues - and frankly no alternative for proper gameplay has been found - please present the full soloution. Handwaving "it will be okay" is NOT supported by the evidence, I'm afraid.
Your personal attacks on me are distasteful, please do not be arrogant enough to establish what someone does or does not hate, My letter as a customer is to CCP, not to a fellow customer but I will take the time to reply to your concerns as well.
FULL SOLUTION: Devs need to play on Test Server, form alliances, test gameplay and ask for volunteers. Their method of doing it as they do currently has lead to a 41 page thread of discontent among customers within 7 hours. If they do not take action now, you will find yourself lonely at the next EvE festival.
+1 Rigoletto/Chorea.
Life is like a chocolate box, you never know what you gonna pick up. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:12:00 -
[1120]
Originally by: Noreen Their method of doing it as they do currently has lead to a 41 page thread of discontent among customers within 7 hours. If they do not take action now, you will find yourself lonely at the next EvE festival.
And in less than a week or two noone will even care about this event as no territory or any substancial alliance gain or loss came from it.. Its just the 'common people' haveing a good time lording over ONE of the 'royaltys' trangressions.. Meh..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:12:00 -
[1121]
hmm it could be the first.any lawyer in here?
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:13:00 -
[1122]
Edited by: Rodney Caston on 10/02/2007 07:12:00
Originally by: ChemicalQueen Has there ever been a class action lawsuit against a MMORPG company concerning a game matter from it's player before?
boom.
Queue Jack Thompson in 5... 4... 3...
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente TRSG Research
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:13:00 -
[1123]
Had the information not been leaked to 3rd party sites would you have done anything?
Really then what took you so long?
Why would you not remove the BPO's in question when you had an admission they were gained in violation of the EULA? The EULA violation rated a ban, Is the EULA being applied evenly?
I guess the thing that is glaringly clear is there are some severe ethical challenges to overcome, Oddly some of these issues are common in growth spurts for businesses and are usually over-reacted to internally.
There have been a lot of posts painting everyone with the same brush, we will never know who knew what when and only those involved know all the facts and timings. To those painted unfairly there is no way to apologizes to those that were missed there is just you who know what you did and why.
As players this is entertainment not real life, as CCP this is business and clearly you have issue to contend with.
IAD needs to make a statement and soon, clear- consice û public.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:16:00 -
[1124]
Originally by: Deepspace Wanderer you know, for a "non-event", this is all over the internet.
just google "eve online dev misconduct"
something will have to be done, or this games reputation will go completely down the crapper.
Which is too bad, because, even in spite of this scandal, this is the best MMO out there right now.
QFT my god... I had no idea but if you do indeed google this issue, like the poster said it is all over the place.... practically every major mmorg website has a story running on this issue.
The damage being done to CCP's future revenue must be incalculable.
CCP must take a much more hardline stance so that this does not ruin the game long term....
another 10 years of EVE .. if BoB remain at the top of the food chain in their current state with all these allegations hanging over their heads?... you must be joking.
BoB as an entity needs to cease to exist.
Its that simple.
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Soporo
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:17:00 -
[1125]
Metagaming to a higher level than ever I thought possible, wonderfull. |
Clitorati Minora
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:17:00 -
[1126]
To everyone calling for T20's job, RELAX
I'm sure once an alienated player base starts leaving the game and the declining revenues force layoffs at CCP, his will be the first head on the chopping block.
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Vas Arach'ta
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:18:00 -
[1127]
Save for one or two rational, level-headed posts on this overbeaten topic, I've never witnessed a more vile collection of sensationalists in my entire life.
That, coupled with people here who seriously consider real life associations with known felons as being deserving of praise for ANY reason speaks mountains of the utter hypocrisy around here.
The mere thought of using that affiliation to try and bully a company response that appeases your own agenda--whatever it is, lurking behind this pathetic pretense of "justice" or "civic responsibility"--it makes me sick to my stomach. How do you people look at yourselves?
t20 made a mistake, but he's been held to account for his actions. The rest of you people keep standing on high on your soapboxes demanding his head like a lot of medieval knaves at a public execution.
Get a life! Cancel your account and use the money to build a monument to your hacker nub elsewhere! He'll be a pillar of justice next to ccp's faults, won't he!
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:19:00 -
[1128]
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
so that means us paying players are screwed.thank you CCP
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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Loki Farseer
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:21:00 -
[1129]
Mmm a Group within a Ruling body not following the rules and profiting/altering events to suit their Goals/Desires....
Jeez, this wouldn't even make the 11 O'clock news in Real Life.
Quit b!thching and suck it up... this is sad, and if you were suprised something like this was going on you are truely naive.
(Since I know the Self-Righteous will whine... No I do not Condone this at all but really, if you think this is suprising... SERIOUSLY GROW UP.)
Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
-This is not an alt this is my 4 month old self, and SWA Doesn't give a Rat's A$$ what I think or say, Just the way I like it.
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Ash Donai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:21:00 -
[1130]
How many cancelled subscriptions will it take before t20 is shown out? One way to find out: Cancelling subscription, you did the talk, do the walk!
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:22:00 -
[1131]
Originally by: Nez Perces QFT my god... I had no idea but if you do indeed google this issue, like the poster said it is all over the place.... practically every major mmorg website has a story running on this issue.
At the very least CCP should find it a bit more difficult to ignore the tough questions with both their player base and the gaming media looking for answers.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Tainos
Amarria Auxilia Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:23:00 -
[1132]
EVE's popularity grows!
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:23:00 -
[1133]
Originally by: Nez Perces QFT my god... I had no idea but if you do indeed google this issue, like the poster said it is all over the place.... practically every major mmorg website has a story running on this issue.
The damage being done to CCP's future revenue must be incalculable.
CCP must take a much more hardline stance so that this does not ruin the game long term....
another 10 years of EVE .. if BoB remain at the top of the food chain in their current state with all these allegations hanging over their heads?... you must be joking.
BoB as an entity needs to cease to exist.
Its that simple.
Like any good news rag all the mmo sites will jump on this like starving jackels.. And as far as CCP's future income.. ROFL..Do you really think that the majority of the mmo playerbase (eve included) even has a clue about what is right and wrong in a business sense? All they will see is some dev gave himself an advantage and then promptly forget it as they buy some gold from the chinese farmers..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Darth Sith
Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:23:00 -
[1134]
I feel compelled to add to this thread before someone claims it has "served it's purpose" and locks it ..
The simple fact that some idiot Dev blatantly cheets in a game that we pay for is completely unacceptable. In reading through this list of responses .. it is quite clear that most of us feel that he should loose his job.
The simple fact that GM's are creating accounts and just happen to be ranking members of the alliance that seems to never loose is just a bit rediculous to me .. How are these people allowed to do this in the first place? And on what friggin planet is this considered acceptable ?
This deserves more then just a slap on the hand .. and I get the distinct impression that CCP is only telling about 10% of the truth. Wake up CCP .. we are the people that pay your paychecks and you are accountable .. for once, put the findings on the table and fess up to exactly what happened if you want to regain the trust of your player base.
Any GM's playing the game to 'experience it from the player view " should be routinely starting new accounts and starting from scratch to see what it is really like. Having ranking positions in one of the most powerfull alliances in the game with oodles of isk is not exactly a 'real experience' ..
For anyone that thinks just having this guy start a new account and not dealing with the other GM's being blobbed up or the fallout from this situation .. I only have to say.. Get your head out of your ass and join the real world ..
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:24:00 -
[1135]
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
and ooh yes ill give bob a head start because im on higher level..
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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Vehestian
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:25:00 -
[1136]
Greatest hope that this gets resolved in an uber-soon kind of way.
And to anyone defending the accused BOB...eat it. EVE is not about BoB. BoB is one alliance among many. 'OMG but BoB is the awesome!"
No.
No greater than anyone who put their whole-hearted effort into building something different: LV, RA, D2, HF, AXE, old SA, FIX, AAA, the new CA. If BoB was the answer to EVE, everyone would be in it. I know most of us would enjoy being in BoB, or accepted in its circles of influence, if only because that would make **** easy for us. We reject that.
The high horse has broken its leg here. Time for some euthanasia.
There are a lot of us who want to see corpses. Let the **** hit the fan amigos. Grats BoB, you now have the whole EVE community to deal with. Sad day.
Lest I be redundant, my posting ends here. Wutang.
We who are about to lag salut you! 0/ |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:25:00 -
[1137]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: The Libertine I think I just found my new sig.
By all means use it. Its from an old t20 post (Linkage) where he discusses people finding out dev alts and is a rather interesting read in light of this new information.
Hmm.
Then: Sympathy for t20 (although now we know some of the posts were from corpmates) Now: Notsomuch...
I wonder what changed?
Oh, and scratch-and-opinion alt Dred'Pirate Jesus 4tw! \o/
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:28:00 -
[1138]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Noreen Their method of doing it as they do currently has lead to a 41 page thread of discontent among customers within 7 hours. If they do not take action now, you will find yourself lonely at the next EvE festival.
And in less than a week or two noone will even care about this event as no territory or any substancial alliance gain or loss came from it.. Its just the 'common people' haveing a good time lording over ONE of the 'royaltys' trangressions.. Meh..
If you make that into a bet then I would love to get in on the action.
If CCP treats this as a non-event I expect this issue to follow the game for a loong time.
CCP needs to be decicive and put down the law. If they act like polititians and beat round the bush in the hopes it will go away they will find people can be very upset about such things.
Ps. any reply on the issue of the person who did not get the Sabre BPO? Ds.
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Vehestian
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:28:00 -
[1139]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
Save for one or two rational, level-headed posts on this overbeaten topic, I've never witnessed a more vile collection of sensationalists in my entire life.
That, coupled with people here who seriously consider real life associations with known felons as being deserving of praise for ANY reason speaks mountains of the utter hypocrisy around here.
The mere thought of using that affiliation to try and bully a company response that appeases your own agenda--whatever it is, lurking behind this pathetic pretense of "justice" or "civic responsibility"--it makes me sick to my stomach. How do you people look at yourselves?
t20 made a mistake, but he's been held to account for his actions. The rest of you people keep standing on high on your soapboxes demanding his head like a lot of medieval knaves at a public execution.
Get a life! Cancel your account and use the money to build a monument to your hacker nub elsewhere! He'll be a pillar of justice next to ccp's faults, won't he!
forbidden to post with your main eh?
We who are about to lag salut you! 0/ |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:29:00 -
[1140]
Originally by: Ramblin Man Oh, and scratch-and-opinion alt Dred'Pirate Jesus 4tw! \o/
I only speak the truth..
P.S. I'm no alt.. None of my characters are in any player corp or ever will be.. :-P
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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Angelic Resolution
Arcanum Defence Forces
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:40:00 -
[1141]
TBH I think it sucks that a Dev can do that. What about those countless ships that have been destroyed due to the Saber BPO? Am thinking that CCP should remove all Dev accounts from corporations and have them in their corp or a newbie corp and a little icon so we know they're devs or something. Just something so this can not happen again.
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Rumbaar
Solitary Forsaken
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:42:00 -
[1142]
Just like the ice-berg that hit the Titanic I bet all this crap is just the tip!!!
No mater what the BPO were, you (the community) can't truly believe that was the only thing that happened that influenced the game beyond the normal player.
I feel sorry for the whistleblower who got shafted for bringing this corruption to light! ___________________
Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail |
Ori Fong
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:42:00 -
[1143]
Edited by: Ori Fong on 10/02/2007 07:40:53 Edited by: Ori Fong on 10/02/2007 07:40:22 Alt post for the loss.
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:43:00 -
[1144]
well since when does ccp ever listen to the players?....not much there is still a bpo lottery,carrier have the size of cruiser...its pointless players always loose sad but true.
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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Forkumato
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 07:49:00 -
[1145]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
3) Why were goonfleet not banned en-mass for the client-side hack they did.
Simple: it's not a hack. It's a mod. That means the interface for performing the modification is open to all, and intentionally so for that purpose.
What we're talking about, if you've never tried it, is going into the cache directory of eve, finding the player portraits that were downloaded, and adding portraits for all the players not yet downloaded. It's simple, open, and anyone can do it without any programming or even text editing skills needed.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:49:00 -
[1146]
JohnStar.. Master of the Obtuse and the Blessed Rabble Rabble..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
ignisgunner
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:51:00 -
[1147]
eh.....what are you going to do
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Sanka Cofie
Amarr Ministry of Silly Walks
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:53:00 -
[1148]
Before I start this whole rant, i'd like to say thanks to the dev's for actually DISCUSSING this entire matter. Considering that they could just as easily have made the matter private and deny that it ever happened.
That being said, this is a sad turn for a very fun game to take, and i'm sure there a lot of people right now wondering if CCP is really a company we want to give $15.00 to every month.
I'm not saying every accustation agaist BoB is true. I'm not saying every accustation against the dev's is true. But CCP looks VERY VERY bad right now. It looks like they've tried to sweep this under the rug. And if they've done it once then who is to say they haven't done it with other things?
On the one hand we ARE thankful to the dev's for making this game that we all obviously love.
But on the other, we play this game because its fair, an equal challenge, we all start with the same noob-ship and try to make our way in the universe.
To find that it might not be equal, that the player corporations are in fact NOT player corporations but that some of them have been given an unfair advantage is very upsetting.
Forget about the ISK, the losses, the BPOs, any of the monetary gain, that one group seems to have been given a VERY serious advantage.
The REAL damage is the total lack of trust now. Who is to say that none of the other accusations are true? CCP looks so BAD right now that its possible to believe anything. All of the people banned for selling isk, banned for selling accounts, banned for EXPLOITS and yet cheating from a dev on a MONUMENTAL scale is totally ignored? Its not the ISK value. Its the principle. CCP looks like they don't care about us at all. CCP looks like Sony.
All of the questions regarding BoB and how much dev influence they had. All of the questions about the T2 lottery. They're now all of a sudden VALID.
On the one hand.... if I handed out free tickets at Disney while I worked there i'd be fired. If I went out drinking with some of the girls I met at Universal i'd be fired. If I gave out a free hotel room to a friend i'd be fired. It doesn't matter how high on the ladder you are or who the special recipient of your gifts is
And yet... I don't think t20 should be fired. Because this mess is not entirely of his making. The mess is the lack of clarity. CCP seems like a national governent right now (a group of people who are UNGOVERNED). Governments sweep things under the rug. Right now CCP seem to be veering dangerously towards the philosophy other companies hold, "we do what we want and if you don't like it play a different game".
I'm not going to cancel my accounts, because EvE is the best gaming has to offer. But CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE. Aside from the double standards, and the huge questions around BoB's success, the whole idea that this admission is the tip of the iceberg...
WHY ARE DEV'S ALLOWED IN TO PLAYER CORPS?
Let them govern NPC corps. Let them fly as the Jove and have Jove space and let player corporations try to take it from them with the UNDERSTANDING that you are going up against the devs. Let them handle the faction wars. But don't let the referee play the game.
DON'T let them play for a corp because it will BREED controversies like this one. No "Real World" business in the world lets its employees intermingle with customers as if they ARE customers. And at the end of the day the money we spend to play is "Real World" money, not virtual money.
Thanks for the forum to gripe CCP. I hope you fix the problems facing EvE Because I do love your game.
I'm half Gallente half Caldari... i'm a Caliente! |
JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:58:00 -
[1149]
hmm maybe now is a good time for a sabatical and spend some more time with the wife and kids........thanks for ruining my rl ccp............:)
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:58:00 -
[1150]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 08:00:04 Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/02/2007 07:59:11
Quote: OMG, he lost his toon in RKK! Who cares, someone with his standing will obtain a new toon just like it within minutes of the old one being deleted (or renamed?).
someone with a job like his can afford to buy a bunch of gtc and sell them to buy a new char anyway.
anyone remember this blog http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=304
Quote: This issue is not up for discussion. Buying your way ahead in EVE is cheating, pure and simple. There are many examples of games ruined by online merchants and their customers, and for good reason. Who wants to play a game where no one plays by the rules? Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone who bought his advantage on Ebay?
i love it when companys do complete 180's i wonder if theres another reason why ccp wanted to legalise buying isk
Who wants to play a game where no one plays by the rules? wheress the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them whiped out by someone who spawned items for BOB
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:59:00 -
[1151]
So, t20 keeps his job. BoB get to keep all the profits from their illegally obtained BPOs, which at least DBP KNEW came from a CCP employee, even if he didn't know they were illegal.
Well played CCP, you've just utterly and completely destroyed all respect I ever had for you.
Sad day.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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ChemicalQueen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:00:00 -
[1152]
Well, I have lost faith. We don't know what REALLY occured, but if there is even a chance that more than those mentioned BPO's were distributed to BOB, then the game is completely and totally messed up for me. I'd hate to say it, but if you follow the reasoning, then a rebirth of EVE would seem to be in order. That, or you WILL be losing many of your players - players like myself who have no faith in getting ahead in the game.
You (CCP) can let the players decide. Make an EVE "ReBirth" patch and run it in a separate environment (don't fill this thread with lag comments please). Those who want to, can move over with new characters. Those who want to stay regardless of the dark cloud hanging over BoB, stay. I'm sure this is completely do-able, and I'm sure the players would appreciate it. This all because my bet is that BoB will win, taking over everything. They'll just be lonely over there, that's all ;)
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hybridundertaker
Amarr Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:08:00 -
[1153]
a bob thread and so little bob posts...
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Quaird
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:14:00 -
[1154]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Noreen Their method of doing it as they do currently has lead to a 41 page thread of discontent among customers within 7 hours. If they do not take action now, you will find yourself lonely at the next EvE festival.
And in less than a week or two noone will even care about this event as no territory or any substancial alliance gain or loss came from it.. Its just the 'common people' haveing a good time lording over ONE of the 'royaltys' trangressions.. Meh..
I highly doubt anyone in ASCN will agree with this statement. Maybe you have not noticed the sudden increase in BOB controlled space in the south? The effects of the ill gotten T2 BPOs in the game certainly helped with the complete and utter destruction of the largest alliance in the game.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:16:00 -
[1155]
Nice post Sanka.. I'd just add the fact that every CEO in the game would have done the same thing for thier own corp if the chance had arisen.. TBH I'm suprised at all the rancor over some t2 ammo and a dictor bpo that were already available in mass quantitys in the market as the lies treachery subterfuge and unfair play that is a hallmark of 0.0 politics are what makes the game so good.. Thats like ****** being fussy over the Gestapos bully tactics after he told them to be that way..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Vehestian
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:17:00 -
[1156]
Originally by: Vehestian
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
Save for one or two rational, level-headed posts on this overbeaten topic, I've never witnessed a more vile collection of sensationalists in my entire life.
That, coupled with people here who seriously consider real life associations with known felons as being deserving of praise for ANY reason speaks mountains of the utter hypocrisy around here.
The mere thought of using that affiliation to try and bully a company response that appeases your own agenda--whatever it is, lurking behind this pathetic pretense of "justice" or "civic responsibility"--it makes me sick to my stomach. How do you people look at yourselves?
t20 made a mistake, but he's been held to account for his actions. The rest of you people keep standing on high on your soapboxes demanding his head like a lot of medieval knaves at a public execution.
Get a life! Cancel your account and use the money to build a monument to your hacker nub elsewhere! He'll be a pillar of justice next to ccp's faults, won't he!
forbidden to post with your main eh?
Ok. Upon reading this a second time, it's gotten into my guts. It deserves a rebuke.
You, sir/madame, must surely be in the BoB hierarchy. ThereÆs too much salt here for you not to be. To be in such a flutter otherwise would make you mentally unaccountable. To more easily inflate the externals of your aggregate machine, you accuse the outside EVE community - real persons who pay real money to play this game - of being 'vile' 'sensationalists'. If anyone would go to the length to state that he/she would in this case 'feel sick to my stomach', certainly, then, that person has a great deal invested in the outcome of this current trial of Honesty. To accuse the lot of us, the entire player base aside from yourself û You, who, might we mark, are surely perfect and firmly set in reality û as having executed a collective dispensation of verbal pointlessness for only the sake of squeezing a company (CCP) to appease our petty concerns, is a pointless and hollow accusation. You claim no ground. What is our æagendaÆ? We are collectively attacking CCP to make our own gripes heard? No. To any simple mind, that should be most evident. I cannot say anything for the equating of known felons with any measure of deserved praise, but I can say, with the authority of Reason, that accusing your external community means that you effectively render your opinions invalid and biased in the face of what is a democratic multitude who, for the most part, could give a **** about what you think is proper according to your dictations. How do we look at ourselves? WeÆre people. Just like you. Unless you can breathe underwater, contend that statement.
Yes. T20 made a mistake. Undoubtably it is one that he has regretted making. Most of us can probably forgive him. But most of us will find it difficult to forgive being accused of being irrational or æsensationalistÆ. Hypocrisy comes best when your æsensationÆ drives you to relegate others to your despised extremity.
We arenÆt asking for T20Æs head. We want to know that we can trust CCP after this event. And to your directive of æGet a life!Æ, well, you play EVE as well. WeÆre all nerds here. Follow that hypocrisy, my friend.
And weÆll be building no monuments. Thanks.
We who are about to lag salut you! 0/ |
pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:19:00 -
[1157]
Sad very sad.... I can just feel all the lag now as the cancel scription button is worn out. If 30k of people didnt leave in the next couple days, ccp should get on their knees and give thanks to the god of isk for blessing them with soft heart customers who dont know when to be upset.
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10bears
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:21:00 -
[1158]
"The Commitment" is simple posturing Hellmar. CCP let this sort of thing slide before and they will let it slide again. Thats real life. t20 has no business working near anything EVE.
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hybridundertaker
Amarr Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:21:00 -
[1159]
Originally by: Darth Sith I feel compelled to add to this thread before someone claims it has "served it's purpose" and locks it ..
The simple fact that some idiot Dev blatantly cheets in a game that we pay for is completely unacceptable. In reading through this list of responses .. it is quite clear that most of us feel that he should loose his job.
The simple fact that GM's are creating accounts and just happen to be ranking members of the alliance that seems to never loose is just a bit rediculous to me .. How are these people allowed to do this in the first place? And on what friggin planet is this considered acceptable ?
This deserves more then just a slap on the hand .. and I get the distinct impression that CCP is only telling about 10% of the truth. Wake up CCP .. we are the people that pay your paychecks and you are accountable .. for once, put the findings on the table and fess up to exactly what happened if you want to regain the trust of your player base.
Any GM's playing the game to 'experience it from the player view " should be routinely starting new accounts and starting from scratch to see what it is really like. Having ranking positions in one of the most powerfull alliances in the game with oodles of isk is not exactly a 'real experience' ..
For anyone that thinks just having this guy start a new account and not dealing with the other GM's being blobbed up or the fallout from this situation .. I only have to say.. Get your head out of your ass and join the real world ..
this guy saved me some typing i cant wtf belive that the only guy who is banned and will suffer consequences is the one that revealed the huge scam to eve public. that is insenly ridiculous...
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Spinnukur
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:25:00 -
[1160]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Noreen Their method of doing it as they do currently has lead to a 41 page thread of discontent among customers within 7 hours. If they do not take action now, you will find yourself lonely at the next EvE festival.
And in less than a week or two noone will even care about this event as no territory or any substancial alliance gain or loss came from it.. Its just the 'common people' haveing a good time lording over ONE of the 'royaltys' trangressions.. Meh..
Excuse me?? I don't care if it was a 'pea shooter' fact is no matter how you look at it, he contributed to BOB which as you know was fighting ASCN. So no alliance or terroritory lost? I don't think so...he may not have been the contributing factor to ASCN's downfall, but he still contributed, no matter how you look at it, any which way and that. I think its also common knowledge that CCP or should I say 'certain' devs in CCP always disliked or 'didn't care' for ASCN...As a paying customer, I wish to know the reprocussions or 'rules' that CCP has in place for its employees and why such 'RULES' were beant this time for the Dev??? We will not forget this in two weeks or two months, Too many players are and still will be affected with doubts about CCP's integrity and committment to honor its stance as being 'fair and balanced' toward its players, because it is a 'Company', it cannot favour one particular side, and they of all people should know that.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:26:00 -
[1161]
Why would anyone want to leave the game over this pumpkin? *If* all t20 did was spawn a few t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo how in the world did that mess up eve? Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Anabelle Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:28:00 -
[1162]
Edited by: Anabelle Khan on 10/02/2007 08:26:35 So if t20 cant keep his cheap Bp's can I have them?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:31:00 -
[1163]
No.. because according to the masses you'll win eve if you have them..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:33:00 -
[1164]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus No.. because according to the masses you'll win eve if you have them..
Please stop repeating the same lame argument over and over. It's not about some stupid BPO, it about cheating. |
Ashis
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:34:00 -
[1165]
This overshadows all that has gone on before, as it should. A number of things need to take place for confidence to have the pathway to be restored. Like it or not.
1) T20 needs to be terminated. I like the guy, he seems like a decent fellow from the posting and interviews. He has apologised. But an apoligy doesn't remove consequences. It allows for a sense of closure, of renewal, but it isn't meant to absolve someone of consequences. T20 needs to be terminated regardless of our personal feelings towards the guy (and when this does happen I wish T20 all the best in his future career).
2) Full disclosure. This is just the tip of the ice berg, and I strongly suspect the Devs know that. In a world where CPP is the sole judge, jury, and media around an event we will never have a "smoking gun" -- so CCP needs to fully disclose *all* the issues with Dev/GM intervention. There are more, they are being held quietly.
3) Reinstatement of Banned Accounts - the whistle blower needs to be let back into the community.
4) Tighter controls. Much tighter. Much much tighter. And some kind of accountability extending beyond the Dev team.
5) Bob - I feel sorry for the guys that don't know the whole story... I honestly believe that most of them have no idea. It may even be that high levels of leadership don't know... but there is more to the story. What we have been given seem to be the scraps.
Without the above I feel cheated. Since I feel cheated I want CCP to pay. Because I want CCP to pay I turn into a vocal proponent against the game. Its human nature - If i just wasted 3 years of time playing in someone elses god complex then I want blood - and I will be sure to sour CCPs reputation to get it.
Dev Blogs aren't good enough. Sorry, I wish they were. A complete reinvestigation and revamp of policy needs to take place. Hold nothing sacred. Until then my accounts remain cancelled. This isn't a threat - because no one gives a damn about 1 player... it is simply stating the truth because for every person taking the time to tell CCP how many aren't taking the time to tell them.
Raise the bar. This is insufficient.
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:35:00 -
[1166]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why would anyone want to leave the game over this pumpkin? *If* all t20 did was spawn a few t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo how in the world did that mess up eve? Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
As you aparently read the thread I am going to make one last attempt to get you to answer to this simple question.
What do you say about the poor sap that did not get a T2 BPO because of t20 removing them from the lottery?
Its not a hard to understand question but I can understand you do not want to touch it with a 2000km pole as it would highlight that this, as you call it, non-issue is infact a big ******* deal to the little players like me.
Upp untill a few days ago I had well over 400k rp's in fields that could have given the ship he stole, how can I or anyone in my position know that things would not have gone differently if he had not decided to help himself to this print.
Devs cloning such important things is not a non-issue, this is a very major issue that bears down on the very core of CCP's integrity.
t20 has confessed that he did it and aparently he has been punished, that is all fine and well but do not claim its a small thing.
Sadly enough I very much doubt the issue is over here and I expect this issue to be hot for weeks if not months even if CCP acts correctly (wich I assume they will).
Now, respond or quit trolling!
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Nelius
Gallente untaught Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:35:00 -
[1167]
Mmm, i'm stunned... I honestly could'nt belive on the allegations when i heard them the first time. Now i can't say that im angry, cause im not, im disappointet. I play the game, up to 10 hours a day, and to do that, i have to trust that the company behind the game, dont favorise on alliance or another. I cant do that anymore, its all fine that t20 has apologised to all the players, but... When did he admit to it? Before or after all hell broke out? Thats right, after. He admits, only when he can't do anything else. When i see it in that light, i cant trust him anymore, and when i can't trust him, i can't trust CCP. Will i cancel my account? No, i can't imagine doing that, however, i will always from now on, whenever BoB (or another alliance), spanks my ass, think whether or not they got help from a Dev in some form... Can we trust you when we ask for a system to be put on stress server? Or will you just inform the owner of the target system? Etc.
Now, what can you do to restore, atleast some trust? Well, to be honest, i dont think you can do much really. You got one decision to make, should you keep t20, or fire him? If you fire him, you will make an example, that you WILL NOT TOLERATE CHEAT! Which in turn, will give you some degree of trust again. If you dont fire him, you can say all you want, but you will show the community, that cheat is ok, just dont get caught, and if you get caught, just appologise, and everything is ok...
Now the question is, which of the 2 options do you take?
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Moostang
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:36:00 -
[1168]
We believe you CCP /sarcasm.
I'm sure the FACT that on 4-5 different occations where I was personally involved in fighting in a system that suffered a node crash bob was able to login and form up with at least 90%+ of theif forces in position before the server would allow even the first ascn member was just a coincidence. I did all the clear cache, multiple client directy, and keeping a second client loaded tricks. Just doesnt help with the server doesnt let you in cause the node is down.
I just wish i had a bob alt on my account so i could get in the "allowed" list so I could get in at the same time as BOB.....
Oh well...CCP help bob cheat, at least we can formally say bob cheated against us now. No more speculation. It has been proven.
[CLS] Moostang Celestial Horizon "G" Spot Division
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:39:00 -
[1169]
Oh and another thing I noticed from Kierons thread where he answers some common questions...
Originally by: Eve Player Question Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs?
Originally by: Kieron
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
You gotta be kidding me.... there is enough circumstantial proof to warrant at least a big fine for BoB.. of some arbitrary amount. 30 Bil isk or something along those lines.
BoB need to be punished in some shape or form for what seems to be a very clear case of looking the other way in the face of developer collusion.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:42:00 -
[1170]
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus No.. because according to the masses you'll win eve if you have them..
Please stop repeating the same lame argument over and over. It's not about some stupid BPO, it about cheating.
I'll repeat it as much as needed to get the point across.. He spawned some freakin t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo.. Is it cheating? yes.. Is it some horrible exploit that has bob taking over every freakin system on the map? FFS NO! He did it for personal gain and fame not to give bob some unfair advantage.. Go whine in a logoffski thread if you really want to contribute to eve cheater crushing.. Your all just ****ed he got to do it and you didnt.. Leave the goddaamm man alone.. I'm sure he will be sutably punished..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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Quix
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:45:00 -
[1171]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why would anyone want to leave the game over this pumpkin? *If* all t20 did was spawn a few t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo how in the world did that mess up eve? Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
Shouldn't you post with your BoD main?
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:46:00 -
[1172]
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus No.. because according to the masses you'll win eve if you have them..
Please stop repeating the same lame argument over and over. It's not about some stupid BPO, it about cheating.
someone calculate profits on a sabre bpo over a year and see what there roughly worth. i suspect the value of these bpos would be around 20bil atleast if he gave a mothership to bob or 20+ carriers noone would be defending this.
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Thews Mortaza
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:48:00 -
[1173]
Woah ... just, woah. I sort of wish I hadn't gone out today. I missed all the fun, it seems. Having since cleared a bottle of sauvignon blanc while reading, to lubricate my typin my (fairly irrelevant, if not irreverent, even) take on this is:
Sorry, CCP. I can't deny you didn't try to do the proper thing here. However, hind-sight shows you dropped the ball a bit early on in this one and now it has bounced back up again and caught you square in the happy-sack. Now, you have to suck it up and go walk it off. To steal slightly from your new colleagues there, you've pronounced the blast sentence and now you soak the critical fall-out. Which totally blows, to be honest. All I can hope for is that you weather this storm out, and take on-board the fairer criticisms that have been made, as you yourselves learn from this unfortunate series of events.
Speaking of unfortunately, the current weather pattern here means I must away, 'ere break of ruddy great electrical storm about to cut my power off and menace my shrubs with frozen universal solvent.
Fly safe, CCP.
Personally, I am left wondering if I can put "Has BoB blown YOU up with dirty money today?" in my next sig, and get away with it ...
(Actually, "WTB t20's frozen corpse" could be interesting, too. Special item for everyone not in BoB to wake up and find in their hangar, perhaps? We could take turns podding you for it, even, )
- We now return you to your regular RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ...
(Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit ! |
Merritt
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:48:00 -
[1174]
Ok, I'm not going to be conversational here (haven't read the whole topic). I'll try to keep it short(ish) and simple though.
While I have no obligation to, I'm going to give this situation time before I decide whether to stay or jump off the pier. As it stands though, I do not trust CCP. That's a new and bitter feeling. Even through drastic balance issues and horrid patch weeks, I always felt like CCP was fairly trustworthy. This situation is a lot more murky. It brings up doubts and colors the past few months differently. It's damaged my perception of CCP's concept of fairness and integrity (and understand I chose those words for thier meaning, not thier buzzwordiness).
I'm not calling for anyone's head, but none of the solutions or resolutions we're privy to seem adequate enough to regain my trust. I hope something happens soon that will.
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Morrigwen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:54:00 -
[1175]
Account Cancelled.
Thanks CCP, you've saved me 5 accounts a month. Now can I petition for the past three years that I've been cheated? |
Ohmite
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:56:00 -
[1176]
One thing I find amazing is the responses from BOB players
Rather than saying we absolutely agree what some BOB players did was unforgiveable and they need to be removed from BOB as they have tarnished our great reputation and have made all we have achieved put into question -which I am sure most players in BOB are feeling
We get only BOB players saying its not a big deal, move along, nothing to see, only some crappy BPOs.
Most of EVE play to fight, BOB play to WIN, at all costs it seems
BOB have no integrity and the responses so far are proving this not disproving it. Why havent the good people within BOB who are many done their own investigation and kicked out those who have done wrong, but no they seem to be supporting them - speaks volumes
If I was a BOB member I would be asking serious questions of my leadership and asking what they are doing to salvage the reputation of my alliance
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:56:00 -
[1177]
The replies in this thread are like some demented mix of myspace and a gaggle of paranoid executives..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
bartoch
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:58:00 -
[1178]
It's a shame for a game. A lot website french say now that CCP sheat his own game, very good pub for this game. Everybody smile when you speak about EVE ....
We don't have the proof that you don't have more !
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Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:58:00 -
[1179]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus No.. because according to the masses you'll win eve if you have them..
Please stop repeating the same lame argument over and over. It's not about some stupid BPO, it about cheating.
I'll repeat it as much as needed to get the point across.. He spawned some freakin t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo.. Is it cheating? yes.. Is it some horrible exploit that has bob taking over every freakin system on the map? FFS NO! He did it for personal gain and fame not to give bob some unfair advantage.. Go whine in a logoffski thread if you really want to contribute to eve cheater crushing.. Your all just ****ed he got to do it and you didnt.. Leave the goddaamm man alone.. I'm sure he will be sutably punished..
Doesn't matter, its a game that people pay for, in which CCP provides a service to the public, as such is responsible for answering up for 'inappropriate' actions that its employees may have caused, that its customers demand answers for. It disgusts me that we even have to take it this far, he should have have terminated according to CCP's 'so called' rules and its EVEN more DISGUSTING that CCP banned the whistleblower, I haven't learned all of the clauses of International Yet, but the little that I do know is that CCP can be held liable for termination of that player whoever he was. Retaliation of whistleblowers is not tolerated at all. CCP may be an Iceland company, but they operate and have 'licenses' all over the world and as such are brought under the laws and regulations of such countries. I wonder if CCP's litigation department is 'high' on caffeine trying to figure out this mess and what to do next...
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dantes inferno
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:59:00 -
[1180]
99% of bob would of had no idea that this was done so its unfair to blame them..though it makes them look like the joke of the month with their forums posts now its proven they had dev help.
what is disgusting and what is making me leave is ccp's dishonesty the main thng we saw during this is an attempt to brush it all under the carpet..even the blog listed bpo's, there is one vital bpo that has been given by this dev according to the forum post and has not been taken back - thats the malediction. add to that devs will still be allowed to play in alliances - somethign which should not be happening as this and other incidents show that 1) ccp emplyees can not be trusted 2) their monitoring tools if any do not work above all the actions of the employees of this crooked company show no respect to their players - how many paying customer have lost their propertie and space they spent hundered of hours on to bob...who had been given help from devs. everything done by ccp to date has been a second rate attempt to pacify people and not an attempt to right the very serious wrong which has been done...none of the devs have done anythng to show they are sorry...only sorry they have been caught.
RAM is recruiting |
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Kyra Azor
Silver Train
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:02:00 -
[1181]
And to a technical question for kieron. How did t20 get the BPOs? I mean is there a program available to developers to make the lottery give one of the regular t2 bpo to a specific player, or he just spawned some extras? And why spawning of a t2 bpo by anyone in TQ, doesn't make an alert go off in CCP offices, so all devs could know? I find it hard to believe that a dev can spawn such a high profile item, without the rest of the devs noticing immediately.
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:10:00 -
[1182]
Edited by: Sephiraa on 10/02/2007 09:09:26
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why would anyone want to leave the game over this pumpkin? *If* all t20 did was spawn a few t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo how in the world did that mess up eve?
What evidence do you have that's ALL he did? The only thing he admitted to, was the one thing he absolutely couldn't possibly get away with at this point. Have you forgotten the rest though?
How do feel about a DEV encouraging an alliance to create a large bank of alts, for the entire Capital fleet of that alliance to share accounts with?
How do you feel about that Alliance then making him the head of their Capital Fleet as a reward?
How do you feel about a DEV giving an alliance inside information on how the game works, so they are able to take advantage of mysterious and undocumented game mechanics?
How do you feel about a DEV who lets an alliance know of upcoming changes, so they can prepare for and capitalize on them, when no other players get to know?
"I was sworn to secrecy by CCP."
Open your eyes good sir. What T20 has admitted to is merely the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
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deadEd
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:10:00 -
[1183]
Edited by: deadEd on 10/02/2007 09:08:21 Kieron, if you're still answering questions, I'd like to see the following addressed:
You said yourself that t20's BPO spawning was discovered over the summer, and that t20 was punished. Yet, it was only very recently that the BPO's he spawned and gave to BoB were removed from the game. Why is that? Why did you not feel the need to correct the damage he had done to the game when his wrongdoings were discovered?
Mind you, I'm far from one of the people in this thread that thinks t20 should lose his job (an option I find is beyond excessive), but it really does rub me the wrong way that you only felt the need to actually right the wrong with the rest of the game's players once CCP was called on it. Had Kugutsumen not been gifted with that RKK forum sql dump, BoB would basically be forever profiting from dev wrongdoings. It may be small in practice, but as a principle, it's pretty disgusting, and doesn't inspire much confidence in any future CCP action that doesn't get outed to the gaming press.
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fightnkill
Avatars of Honor Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:10:00 -
[1184]
Edited by: fightnkill on 10/02/2007 09:07:54 Don't try to instruct CCP Exececutives of what to do...
The probability that they'll read ur comments are rather slim.
They don't really seem to care about the common Eve players as it seems.
They will not -Ban the corrupt dev -Unban the guy who uncovered this corruption -Will not deduct any profit made from those BPOs -Listen to us Basically to them, we're just another customer that keeps paying em.
In addition, they seem to be trying to enforce censorship. On the BoB war, if CCP helps BoB and BoB wins; my guess is that CCP will most likely lose 1/3 of their customers. Maybe then, they'll relize the mistake they're making.
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Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:10:00 -
[1185]
Originally by: dantes inferno 99% of bob would of had no idea that this was done so its unfair to blame them..though it makes them look like the joke of the month with their forums posts now its proven they had dev help.
what is disgusting and what is making me leave is ccp's dishonesty the main thng we saw during this is an attempt to brush it all under the carpet..even the blog listed bpo's, there is one vital bpo that has been given by this dev according to the forum post and has not been taken back - thats the malediction. add to that devs will still be allowed to play in alliances - somethign which should not be happening as this and other incidents show that 1) ccp emplyees can not be trusted 2) their monitoring tools if any do not work above all the actions of the employees of this crooked company show no respect to their players - how many paying customer have lost their propertie and space they spent hundered of hours on to bob...who had been given help from devs. everything done by ccp to date has been a second rate attempt to pacify people and not an attempt to right the very serious wrong which has been done...none of the devs have done anythng to show they are sorry...only sorry they have been caught.
This is just the tip of the iceberg...the question should be, how deep does the rabbit hole go?? Were not blaming all the players of BOB, but a DEV in BOB, with T2 BPOS, I more then guarentee you that some of BOB's High Command had knowledge of this.
And a second part to dantes inferno's post....were in the love of Jovian Osaka Beans, is that Malediction BPO???
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:11:00 -
[1186]
Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 10/02/2007 09:09:44
Working for CCP is definitly not just a job. The CCP employees are at least as emerged in that game as we are. Everybody there wants to play EVE. If someone would not be seriously interested in playing EVE, I would not hire him/her.
Devs simply should not be allowed to play in game, because they know more about the game mechanics and future developments then others. They have an intrinsic advantage in that game.
Unfortunately, you cannot stop them playing the game if they want to. They might just use a friend to setup an account, and done. In this case, you cannot control at all what they are doing. So officially allowing Devs to play, is the minor evil thing to do. At least, you can now officially control the account.
Juwi Kotch
PS: I'm really wondering, why BoB does not post here. That's kind of accepting the guilt.
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:12:00 -
[1187]
Originally by: Philo Farnsworth I would hate there to be a one-sided witch hunt. Eve should be cleaned up EVERYWHERE.
QFT.
However, what actually needs to be done is a total cessation of the hypocritical "blind-eye" policy. Probably almost every big corporation and alliance uses account sharing for some of its cyno pilots, its megaship pilots, its industrialists or quartermasters. Accounts are transferred informally between friends. All of which is against the rules but as is clear from this and from the fact there are no doubt devs in many of these bodies, a blind eye is turned to this except when it suits some GM to throw his weight around.
Either enforce such rules or delete the rules. Because otherwise it breeds contempt for the other rules and we get - well, we see exactly what we get, don't we?
The other thing that needs to go is the whole "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. However convenient it may be for CCP to be able to cover-up the discrepancies in its GM responses by stopping people quoting them, it's just wrong. Likewise the farce whereby people can be banned for using exploits but aren't allowed to be told what's been defined as an exploit. Honesty, transparency and consistency, CCP, that's what you need now. And a little less of the self-righteous "trust us" attitute because frankly you don't deserve it right now.
And worryingly this is still not what we're seeing from kieron. "His disciplining was iffy because our senior managers were all on holiday"??? WTF? Just what sort of cowboy outfit are you running here? |
Hindgrinder Jr
Minmatar Eve Game Card Co
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:14:00 -
[1188]
Originally by: ChemicalQueen I'd hate to say it, but if you follow the reasoning, then a rebirth of EVE would seem to be in order. That, or you WILL be losing many of your players - players like myself who have no faith in getting ahead in the game.
You (CCP) can let the players decide. Make an EVE "ReBirth" patch and run it in a separate environment (don't fill this thread with lag comments please). Those who want to, can move over with new characters. Those who want to stay regardless of the dark cloud hanging over BoB, stay. I'm sure this is completely do-able, and I'm sure the players would appreciate it. This all because my bet is that BoB will win, taking over everything. They'll just be lonely over there, that's all ;)
I'm in - where do i sign up?
CH
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Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:14:00 -
[1189]
Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 10/02/2007 09:07:54 Don't try to instruct CCP Exececutives of what to do...
The probability that they'll read ur comments are rather slim.
They don't really seem to care about the common Eve players as it seems.
They will not -Ban the corrupt dev es, you do the math... Over 4,000 people fough-Unban the guy who uncovered this corruption -Will not deduct any profit made from those BPOs -Listen to us Basically to them, we're just another customer that keeps paying em.
In addition, they seem to be trying to enforce censorship. On the BoB war, if CCP helps BoB and BoB wins; my guess is that CCP will most likely lose 1/3 of their customers. Maybe then, they'll relize the mistake they're making.
Yes and with over 4,000 players who fought for ASCN that comes out to 59,800 dollars a month, thats not including all the alts that everyone has...
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Jack'O Blades
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:17:00 -
[1190]
I LOST MY TRUST in the devs AND CCP for a fun and impartial game... an environment where I THOUGHT skill, tactics, planning, intelect, commitment and patience would reward you... I was wrong...
WHY did I spend 1.5 years of my life playing this corrupted game!?!?!?!?
AND.... LOL..... the cheater(s) is/are still allowed to 'contribute' to Eve's future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:18:00 -
[1191]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 09:16:15
Originally by: Spinnukur Doesn't matter, its a game that people pay for, in which CCP provides a service to the public, as such is responsible for answering up for 'inappropriate' actions that its employees may have caused, that its customers demand answers for.
Guess you missed all the stickys with official responces then..
It disgusts me that we even have to take it this far, he should have have terminated according to CCP's 'so called' rules
So you want CCP to fire a productive and loyal employee because he cheated at the game in a way that minimized the ingame economic impact and was really only a convinence to him and his close alliance mates and not a war winning exploit for BoB? Sheese I'd hate to work for you..
and its EVEN more DISGUSTING that CCP banned the whistleblower, I haven't learned all of the clauses of International Yet, but the little that I do know is that CCP can be held liable for termination of that player whoever he was. Retaliation of whistleblowers is not tolerated at all. CCP may be an Iceland company, but they operate and have 'licenses' all over the world and as such are brought under the laws and regulations of such countries. I wonder if CCP's litigation department is 'high' on caffeine trying to figure out this mess and what to do next...
Let that be a lesson to finks everywere.. If your gonna squeal at least do it for something thats worth the effort and gives you some leverage..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:22:00 -
[1192]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Spinnukur Doesn't matter, its a game that people pay for, in which CCP provides a service to the public, as such is responsible for answering up for 'inappropriate' actions that its employees may have caused, that its customers demand answers for.
Guess you missed all the stickys with official responces then..
It disgusts me that we even have to take it this far, he should have have terminated according to CCP's 'so called' rules
So you want CCP to fire a productive and loyal employee because he cheated at the game in a way that minimized the ingame economic impact and was really only a convinence to him and his close alliance mates and not a war winning exploit for BoB? Sheese I'd hate to work for you..
and its EVEN more DISGUSTING that CCP banned the whistleblower, I haven't learned all of the clauses of International Yet, but the little that I do know is that CCP can be held liable for termination of that player whoever he was. Retaliation of whistleblowers is not tolerated at all. CCP may be an Iceland company, but they operate and have 'licenses' all over the world and as such are brought under the laws and regulations of such countries. I wonder if CCP's litigation department is 'high' on caffeine trying to figure out this mess and what to do next...
Let that be a lesson to finks everywere.. If your gonna squeal at least do it for something thats worth the effort and gives you some leverage..
Actually I did read the 'POSTS', maybe if you actually took the time to read every single post from other members you would see that I am not the only player who 'KNOWS' that this is just the tip of the iceberg an a 'COVERUP' by CCP to save their 'PROFITS'. By the way, thanks for add that last part in and trying to make it look like I posted this last part.-Let that be a lesson to finks everywere.. If your gonna squeal at least do it for something thats worth the effort and gives you some leverage..
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:24:00 -
[1193]
Hilmar Veigar Petursson, CEO CCP, Please get control of this before CCP spirals away, and the game I love, you and some friends dreampt up and made a reality dissolves. You must come clean to your customers, shareholders and partners what has truly happened and what is being done to correct it SPECIFICLY.
I too am extremely upset and disappointed in the amount of hypocrisy and favoritism shown throughout this entire ordeal. Some of the blame is on the Dev's, some on certain players, and a lot on you. For this is your game, and your company.
Since I began playing this game I have read the forums and seen posts that your customers felt that the BoB alliance had some sort of advantage...but had no proof, for it lay in the servers records. Many "proof or STFU" posts and flame mail erupted each time. The matter never appeared to be dealt with.
Customers became more voicetrous and were banned by your company to post their discontent on the forums and to play the game they once enjoyed. One player recently came with the proof (however he got it) was banned, but continued the fight because he thought it was a just cause(using out of game resources, and I'm sure some of his own money) causing you and your company to deal with the matter more publicly.
Having spent some time in an investigations unit I know that if it stinks like manure, and your not the only one that smells it, it most likely is manure. I also know that if you press someone, and continue to interrogate them for a major offense, and they admit to a lessor offense, it is usually to passify the interrogator from asking further questions. Meaning that they will admit to a lessor offense, but there is usually even more to the story.
T20 admits to have given BPO's to BoB that he should not have, and BoB may have not otherwise obtained. When that was found out by your company....nothing was done in the customers eyes. In a game that they play and pay on a monthly fee, favoritism was given to an alliance in what appears to be an effort to help them take over the entire 0.0 map. This leaves your customer with a "why do I pay to play if CCP is against me" attitude in playing the game. CCP should not be dictating the role of anyone who wants the same fair chance as the next player.
T20 kept his job when this was found out several months ago (the reason doesn't matter as every case is situational) however, If I remember correctly, I read a post about a new employee doing the same thing for himself (giving himself certain in game equipment) yet he was fired. Your customers see this too. And it gives the impression that helping BoB is less of an in game crime than helping yourself.
This leads me to something else I know a little about. I am an Equal Opportunity Representative in the US Army. I have posted it before, and i will say it again....Perception Is Fact. If a group of people perceive that something is one sided, or favoritism is shown...then it is. It's that simple. I'm not talking about alliance on alliance he said she said jargon, but genuine concern over the perception of events.
If you are doing an investigation to see if any wrong doing exists within your company, you bring in an OUTSIDE ageny to do just that. Someone with no internal ties and complete control to all logs and data. You cant do an investigation on yourself (CCP) and come to a "we have investigated ourselves and we find we did no wrong" answer to try and silence your customers if they are feeling that the game does not have fair play.
Continued....
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Mack Vyss
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:24:00 -
[1194]
Dose CCP know hwo CISO is? I doubt!
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dArkness IR
Cutting Edge Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:24:00 -
[1195]
Dred'Pirate Jesus STFU or post with ur BOBit main...
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:24:00 -
[1196]
Kugutshisname released RL info about a person....he was banned. Molle did the same yet he continues to play....for the alliance that appears to be shown the favoritism. Why is this? Whats being done? Is Molle holding something over CCP's head that would cause a Dev to risk his job to help them? Why do all the Dev's appear to be playing for BoB? (I have no doubt they are spread throughout the game though) Are they personal friends or have they worked together on other projects?
Some of these questions are what is being raised by your customers. Some can not be answered, but the ones that can need to be, and to your paying customers. But there are many more questions that now remain from known corruption inside the game from the people who develop the game. Did Cyvok indeed log of his Titan only to have a dev make it re-appear? Was a GM scouting a system for BoB a day prior to a war declaration? What is happening to the BPO's in question?....Why weren't they immediately removed from game?...What is happening to ALL proceeds that were made from them?...And are those just the ones your customers know about? What restitution will be given to alliances destroyed by BoB due to unfair favoritism? (yes we all continue to hear it wasn't an unfair advantage, they just play the game better...guess it helps to be a creator of the game in the first place. The argument can no longer be made that they had no inside information about game mechanics, or possible outside help) *What steps are in place to ensure your customers that this will not happen again and the game is returning to fair play? (having an internal affairs dept. is one step, but CCP is a relatively small company, and do they interact with the other employees personally on a daily basis? If so how do they stay objective and impartial?)
All this is what leaves doubt in the minds of players who love the game and want to continue playing.
This being said, I definitely don't think that a fellow human being should have a job he loves and a game he helped create taken from him. That essentially would ruin a person in RL for cheating in a GAME. If people would take a breath and think about this a little deeper I don't think there is a logical argument otherwise. (although again I refer to an earlier statement where thats what happened to a different employee) Developers should play the game. Hell, it was your game first, we just pay to play your game. However, I think that no matter what, sever limitations should be emplaced between employee and customer relations. There should be none. (otherwise there's really no sense in Jove space is there?)
We (the customer) have no doubt of your love of the Game. We love it too. But please be completely honest and open to us so that we know it will be around for a long time, and the allegations stop. (because slowly and surely they all seem to be coming true)
Thank-you for your time.....If you actually read this.
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Sypher313
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:25:00 -
[1197]
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr
Originally by: ChemicalQueen I'd hate to say it, but if you follow the reasoning, then a rebirth of EVE would seem to be in order. That, or you WILL be losing many of your players - players like myself who have no faith in getting ahead in the game.
You (CCP) can let the players decide. Make an EVE "ReBirth" patch and run it in a separate environment (don't fill this thread with lag comments please). Those who want to, can move over with new characters. Those who want to stay regardless of the dark cloud hanging over BoB, stay. I'm sure this is completely do-able, and I'm sure the players would appreciate it. This all because my bet is that BoB will win, taking over everything. They'll just be lonely over there, that's all ;)
I'm in - where do i sign up?
CH
shaddap you!!! you wish. Lo Cap
anyway more to the point of this whole mess.
damn freakin shame this is. 3 yrs in this game average 40 hrs a week addicted and this whole mess is going on all the time?
tbh not really sure what to make of the whole thing, I definetly dont like it, CCP you are loosing the faith of your player base.
Sort this out FFS. T20 as the sacraficail lamb? I've heard BOB alliance should be fined or broken up and punished, Dont beleive that is the solution, to tar and feather them all for the actions of a few.
meh hell if i know how to fix it, but i do know I am most dissappointed in the situation.
Sirs, this is a fine mess you've gotten us into!
good night xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:25:00 -
[1198]
Originally by: Lucre And worryingly this is still not what we're seeing from kieron. "His disciplining was iffy because our senior managers were all on holiday"??? WTF? Just what sort of cowboy outfit are you running here?
The same sort of cowboy outfit they've always run. Although I (still, more or less) admire CCP, they've never been a huge, slickly run corporate outfit. They've always been an ad-hoc, slightly cowboy outfit. Which is what makes them different. In the good ways and the bad.
I hate to say it, but if you want a "corporately" run company, then go and play an MMO from SoE.
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Frug
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:27:00 -
[1199]
Thank you CCP for addressing the matter with about as much care as humanly possible. There's no way for us to know exactly what goes on behind the scenes, but some level of trust has to exist.
Quote: You have entrusted us to sa***uard your hard work.
Acknowledging that helps a lot.
I can't see what more you can really do to alleviate concerns. Deleting their characters because they were found out sounds tough but very fair.
Yar
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - |
Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:28:00 -
[1200]
Originally by: Devie Viviem Kugutshisname released RL info about a person....he was banned. Molle did the same yet he continues to play....for the alliance that appears to be shown the favoritism. Why is this? Whats being done? Is Molle holding something over CCP's head that would cause a Dev to risk his job to help them? Why do all the Dev's appear to be playing for BoB? (I have no doubt they are spread throughout the game though) Are they personal friends or have they worked together on other projects?
Some of these questions are what is being raised by your customers. Some can not be answered, but the ones that can need to be, and to your paying customers. But there are many more questions that now remain from known corruption inside the game from the people who develop the game. Did Cyvok indeed log of his Titan only to have a dev make it re-appear? Was a GM scouting a system for BoB a day prior to a war declaration? What is happening to the BPO's in question?....Why weren't they immediately removed from game?...What is happening to ALL proceeds that were made from them?...And are those just the ones your customers know about? What restitution will be given to alliances destroyed by BoB due to unfair favoritism? (yes we all continue to hear it wasn't an unfair advantage, they just play the game better...guess it helps to be a creator of the game in the first place. The argument can no longer be made that they had no inside information about game mechanics, or possible outside help) *What steps are in place to ensure your customers that this will not happen again and the game is returning to fair play? (having an internal affairs dept. is one step, but CCP is a relatively small company, and do they interact with the other employees personally on a daily basis? If so how do they stay objective and impartial?)
All this is what leaves doubt in the minds of players who love the game and want to continue playing.
This being said, I definitely don't think that a fellow human being should have a job he loves and a game he helped create taken from him. That essentially would ruin a person in RL for cheating in a GAME. If people would take a breath and think about this a little deeper I don't think there is a logical argument otherwise. (although again I refer to an earlier statement where thats what happened to a different employee) Developers should play the game. Hell, it was your game first, we just pay to play your game. However, I think that no matter what, sever limitations should be emplaced between employee and customer relations. There should be none. (otherwise there's really no sense in Jove space is there?)
We (the customer) have no doubt of your love of the Game. We love it too. But please be completely honest and open to us so that we know it will be around for a long time, and the allegations stop. (because slowly and surely they all seem to be coming true)
Thank-you for your time.....If you actually read this.
You win this thread! Very well written, sums it all up.
This is only the top of the iceberg. I can think of alot of cases which you didnt tell about, that is very likely to have been done by GM's/Devs.
For the sake of your customers and shareholders. Tell the truth, and the whole truth.
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Befounder
FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:31:00 -
[1201]
Edited by: Befounder on 10/02/2007 09:29:41 t20 says he is sorry, and puts out a few t2 bpos, all of which are crap except sabre and spike, and I thought there were 10 t2 bpos, what is with this ****ty 6? where are the others? he also says this is the only wrongdoing in all of the allegations. He has been lying for a long time, why should we now take his word that only this is true? He could just be a scapegoat to cover up for bigger things. And not punishing him? they say it is cruel to punish him twice, as if he just borrowd a coffee mug and now returned it.
Tell your internal affairs to look deeper and more carefully and look at everyone, not just devs but players with connections to them who might have known the devs' identity and used them for an unfair advantage. Just a few weeks ago the allegations were a lie, and the "alleged" hacker was a liar. A week ago there was just nothing to be found said Kieron. Now we have T20, who aside from public humiliation in front of the whole eve community (bohooo an online community doesnt like me, big deal) is not punished properly.
I am hurt that CCP is lying, cheating and providing unfair advantage to numerous people, as well as taking this mature community for a fool by trying contain a messy situation by following the PR handbook. First the PR speech, now the scapegoat.
but why do I care? i will keep playing and shooting people, and if a dev comes by i will just pod him just because i am hurt
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ashher
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:35:00 -
[1202]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why would anyone want to leave the game over this pumpkin? *If* all t20 did was spawn a few t2 ammo bpos and a dictor bpo how in the world did that mess up eve? Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
If you believe it was only those declared BPOs you are very naive - if he had the power to give bpos he only gave out 8 ****ty ones - YEH RIGHT
Tip of the iceburg certainly
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Valan
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:35:00 -
[1203]
Tip of the iceberg as far as I'm concerned.
Large scale exploits forgotten about. Allegations of GTCs being handed out free to friends to sell for ISK, which incidentally would probably net more than those BPOs. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Sypher313
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:35:00 -
[1204]
Originally by: Devie Viviem Hilmar Veigar Petursson, CEO CCP, Please get control of this before CCP spirals away, and the game I love, you and some friends dreampt up and made a reality dissolves. You must come clean to your customers, shareholders and partners what has truly happened and what is being done to correct it SPECIFICLY.
I too am extremely upset and disappointed in the amount of hypocrisy and favoritism shown throughout this entire ordeal. Some of the blame is on the Dev's, some on certain players, and a lot on you. For this is your game, and your company.
Since I began playing this game I have read the forums and seen posts that your customers felt that the BoB alliance had some sort of advantage...but had no proof, for it lay in the servers records. Many "proof or STFU" posts and flame mail erupted each time. The matter never appeared to be dealt with.
Customers became more voicetrous and were banned by your company to post their discontent on the forums and to play the game they once enjoyed. One player recently came with the proof (however he got it) was banned, but continued the fight because he thought it was a just cause(using out of game resources, and I'm sure some of his own money) causing you and your company to deal with the matter more publicly.
Having spent some time in an investigations unit I know that if it stinks like manure, and your not the only one that smells it, it most likely is manure. I also know that if you press someone, and continue to interrogate them for a major offense, and they admit to a lessor offense, it is usually to passify the interrogator from asking further questions. Meaning that they will admit to a lessor offense, but there is usually even more to the story.
T20 admits to have given BPO's to BoB that he should not have, and BoB may have not otherwise obtained. When that was found out by your company....nothing was done in the customers eyes. In a game that they play and pay on a monthly fee, favoritism was given to an alliance in what appears to be an effort to help them take over the entire 0.0 map. This leaves your customer with a "why do I pay to play if CCP is against me" attitude in playing the game. CCP should not be dictating the role of anyone who wants the same fair chance as the next player.
T20 kept his job when this was found out several months ago (the reason doesn't matter as every case is situational) however, If I remember correctly, I read a post about a new employee doing the same thing for himself (giving himself certain in game equipment) yet he was fired. Your customers see this too. And it gives the impression that helping BoB is less of an in game crime than helping yourself.
This leads me to something else I know a little about. I am an Equal Opportunity Representative in the US Army. I have posted it before, and i will say it again....Perception Is Fact. If a group of people perceive that something is one sided, or favoritism is shown...then it is. It's that simple. I'm not talking about alliance on alliance he said she said jargon, but genuine concern over the perception of events.
If you are doing an investigation to see if any wrong doing exists within your company, you bring in an OUTSIDE ageny to do just that. Someone with no internal ties and complete control to all logs and data. You cant do an investigation on yourself (CCP) and come to a "we have investigated ourselves and we find we did no wrong" answer to try and silence your customers if they are feeling that the game does not have fair play.
Continued....
good post xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Sypher313
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 09:36:00 -
[1205]
Originally by: Devie Viviem Kugutshisname released RL info about a person....he was banned. Molle did the same yet he continues to play....for the alliance that appears to be shown the favoritism. Why is this? Whats being done? Is Molle holding something over CCP's head that would cause a Dev to risk his job to help them? Why do all the Dev's appear to be playing for BoB? (I have no doubt they are spread throughout the game though) Are they personal friends or have they worked together on other projects?
Some of these questions are what is being raised by your customers. Some can not be answered, but the ones that can need to be, and to your paying customers. But there are many more questions that now remain from known corruption inside the game from the people who develop the game. Did Cyvok indeed log of his Titan only to have a dev make it re-appear? Was a GM scouting a system for BoB a day prior to a war declaration? What is happening to the BPO's in question?....Why weren't they immediately removed from game?...What is happening to ALL proceeds that were made from them?...And are those just the ones your customers know about? What restitution will be given to alliances destroyed by BoB due to unfair favoritism? (yes we all continue to hear it wasn't an unfair advantage, they just play the game better...guess it helps to be a creator of the game in the first place. The argument can no longer be made that they had no inside information about game mechanics, or possible outside help) *What steps are in place to ensure your customers that this will not happen again and the game is returning to fair play? (having an internal affairs dept. is one step, but CCP is a relatively small company, and do they interact with the other employees personally on a daily basis? If so how do they stay objective and impartial?)
All this is what leaves doubt in the minds of players who love the game and want to continue playing.
This being said, I definitely don't think that a fellow human being should have a job he loves and a game he helped create taken from him. That essentially would ruin a person in RL for cheating in a GAME. If people would take a breath and think about this a little deeper I don't think there is a logical argument otherwise. (although again I refer to an earlier statement where thats what happened to a different employee) Developers should play the game. Hell, it was your game first, we just pay to play your game. However, I think that no matter what, sever limitations should be emplaced between employee and customer relations. There should be none. (otherwise there's really no sense in Jove space is there?)
We (the customer) have no doubt of your love of the Game. We love it too. But please be completely honest and open to us so that we know it will be around for a long time, and the allegations stop. (because slowly and surely they all seem to be coming true)
Thank-you for your time.....If you actually read this.
pt 2 good post xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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The Pigeon
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:38:00 -
[1206]
From now on, how can I have a corp/gang/fleet chat without wondering if the dev in the alliance I am about to attack is reading it? You want to put voice in our clients? I suppose you'll have to "monitor" the channels to ensure the quality is good. Who knows what is going on behind the scenes.
The trust is gone. CCP's action/inaction the next few days will determine if this game is worth my continued interest and investment.
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fightnkill
Avatars of Honor Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:39:00 -
[1207]
Edited by: fightnkill on 10/02/2007 09:36:19
Originally by: Spinnukur
Originally by: fightnkill
Don't try to instruct CCP Exececutives of what to do...
The probability that they'll read ur comments are rather slim.
They don't really seem to care about the common Eve players as it seems.
They will not -Ban the corrupt dev es, you do the math... Over 4,000 people fough-Unban the guy who uncovered this corruption -Will not deduct any profit made from those BPOs -Listen to us Basically to them, we're just another customer that keeps paying em.
In addition, they seem to be trying to enforce censorship. On the BoB war, if CCP helps BoB and BoB wins; my guess is that CCP will most likely lose 1/3 of their customers. Maybe then, they'll relize the mistake they're making.
Yes and with over 4,000 players who fought for ASCN that comes out to 59,800 dollars a month, thats not including all the alts that everyone has...
Well your still playing
And people are Much More likely to quit a game if they lose due to GM/Dev interference. on the ASCN war, there wern't any active evidence of GM intervention.
If the anti-BoB loses this war, they will most likely blame the corruption thingy I guess. Which also means a good number of them will quit the game as they see no point continuing to play.
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Secretary
Bargain consumables
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:41:00 -
[1208]
Go Back To Sleep and Keep Paying your subs you mangey rabble.
CCP is not a democracy, it's not accountable to anyone other than its shareholders and it gives you what you crave. Despite the repeated misrepresentations and plain lies perpetrated upon you your only choices are : keep paying to play / stop paying to play.
Choose the red pill or the blue pill and deal with it.
I am an alt.
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fightnkill
Avatars of Honor Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:41:00 -
[1209]
Originally by: The Pigeon
The trust is gone. CCP's action/inaction the next few days will determine if this game is worth my continued interest and investment.
Same here. No point playing a game when devs/GMs continously and unfairly favor one group over the rest.
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:43:00 -
[1210]
Quote:Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
BULL****, YOU ARE LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH - THIS WILL NOT END HERE, MARK MY WORDS!!!!!!!!
Cheaters never prosper! |
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BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:43:00 -
[1211]
Quote: but CCP is a relatively small company, and do they interact with the other employees personally on a daily basis? If so how do they stay objective and impartial?)
half of the people that started ccp (21 people) all came from the same company.
heres an qoute from an olf tuxford blog search google for "eve-online blog tuxford ultima" to find the original blog
Quote: CCP has some deep roots that sprouted from Ultima Online. MrRed (QA) and I formed an Icelandic guild with some other Icelander we found called Zrakor (same dude that made almost every single mission in EVE). Later on, we ganked two guys called Solaris (Creative Director & Founder of CCP) and Panzer (Customer Support) but later befriended with them as they managed to cry out that they were Icelanders before they hit the ground.Here's a picture of me, MrRed and Solaris in UO, killing miners and leaving behind a mark of fear for future miners (or what others might call vandalism):
some of ccp staff were in the same guild as the founder of ccp before ccp existed i wonder if t20 was one of them, might explain the slap on the wrist if he was ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Susitna
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:44:00 -
[1212]
New player here. About 2 months. My bottom line - the Dev's employemnt with CCP should be terminated. It is inexcusable for a developer to cheat in a such away. I understand you say he was punished once. Sounds like pure BS to me and an attemptedd cover up. At the minimun, you need to remove this persons access to any game mechanics that could result in cheats. Put them in a department like accounting or web page automation if you must keep them legaly.
I am really concerned in investing time and energy in this game. As I see it the managers have little regard for their player base. Your action to allow a knowen cheater to continue developling the game and allowing this person access to game mechanics that could lead to further cheating speak loudly to me.
How can this person ever ever get any creditablity back with the player base? You gonna change their fourm name and cover it up some more?
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:45:00 -
[1213]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
Um, didn't someone win a mothership from an event?
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Wotar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:45:00 -
[1214]
Meh I was gonna write a long thing but Eve's no longer worth the effort. Here's why:
"Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct."
So CCP, you're telling us when you found out about the BPOs, they let RKK keep them????
You dishonest, cheating scum. This is not about one man's actions as you paint it Kieron. CCP as a company is helping BoB and covering it up. Wanna prove me wrong on that? Show us soem action then. (Kieron posting non-replies in a locked thread is not 'action')
Give me one good reason to pay my subscription next month. Go on. Because I can't think of one. RIP EVE.
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:46:00 -
[1215]
now off to other threads like MMORPG, where you might listen to the community, instead of brushing it under the carpet, we all know who the real culprits are here.
my confidence in CCP is now gone!
Cheaters never prosper! |
Dekiri
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:48:00 -
[1216]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Spinnukur Actually I did read the 'POSTS', maybe if you actually took the time to read every single post from other members you would see that I am not the only player who 'KNOWS' that this is just the tip of the iceberg an a 'COVERUP' by CCP to save their 'PROFITS'
So waht additional stuff do you believe is being covered up? Any exact examples besides OMGBOBHAXSPLOITS?
And to the gentleman asking me to post with my bob main.. I have no characters in any player corp and could give a rats arse about your petty 0.0 politics or wars.. I'm NBSI everywhere so all you alliance blokes can take a giant leap..
I'm just amused at all the ranting over a trivial event that has all the forum warriors acting like paranoid schitzos..
You can just check the web for that information, if you are to lazy to obtain that information there is no place for you in this discussion i believe.
Have a nice day.
--------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur |
August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:48:00 -
[1217]
"Give me one good reason to pay my subscription next month. Go on. Because I can't think of one. RIP EVE."
There are no good reasons for you to pay your subscription next month. get out
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Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:49:00 -
[1218]
Originally by: Frug It sounds to me like some players will never be satisfied. If you're never satisfied, why bother whining?
Quote: Did Cyvok indeed log of his Titan only to have a dev make it re-appear?
If you believe something like that, you will never be satisfied. That's just absurd.
Tinfoil hats ftw.
Glad to see that BOBBIT, slaves are finally starting to crawl out of their CAVES and respond...
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Wotar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:50:00 -
[1219]
Edited by: Wotar on 10/02/2007 09:46:52
Originally by: August Personage "Give me one good reason to pay my subscription next month. Go on. Because I can't think of one. RIP EVE."
There are no good reasons for you to pay your subscription next month. get out
wasn't talking to you, go pull the wool back over your eyes
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SinqLaisonMarket
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:50:00 -
[1220]
Originally by: Tab'Fren
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Now if he had started spawning titans and motherships and boosting his alliance mates sp totals then ya I'd be with you on this.. But FFS its just some damn ammo..
Um, didn't someone win a mothership from an event?
umm arent those bpos worht as much as a motherships mineral cost atleast.
i sabre bids of 15bil in 2005 god knows what there worth now.
ahh well its still only like giving boD 20 carriers or a nyx
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:53:00 -
[1221]
Originally by: Dekiri You can just check the web for that information, if you are to lazy to obtain that information there is no place for you in this discussion i believe.
Have a nice day.
Why should I browse the web for secondhand and most likely pure speculative info when I can get the real stuff right here? Or is there no real stuff? Just a brief list of all the things that the devs are doing to make bob uber is all im after.. Is that to much to ask for?
And thank you for the nice day! I hope yours is too..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Petrix
Caldari StarLight Inc. Prismatic Refraction
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:55:00 -
[1222]
Edited by: Petrix on 10/02/2007 09:51:49 I have to congratulate T20 on heŠs bravery to take the fall for the others... "All for one, one for all"... or in this case "One takes the fall so the other can continue playing"
Of course this was banned to happened, They are still human players and the game took the best of them. But remember this when a non dev player is found guilty of exploit. Can 1 player take the heat for the others....? After all, fair is fair.
A big dent in the trust department here.... |
ChemicalQueen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:55:00 -
[1223]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Spinnukur Actually I did read the 'POSTS', maybe if you actually took the time to read every single post from other members you would see that I am not the only player who 'KNOWS' that this is just the tip of the iceberg an a 'COVERUP' by CCP to save their 'PROFITS'
So waht additional stuff do you believe is being covered up? Any exact examples besides OMGBOBHAXSPLOITS?
And to the gentleman asking me to post with my bob main.. I have no characters in any player corp and could give a rats arse about your petty 0.0 politics or wars.. I'm NBSI everywhere so all you alliance blokes can take a giant leap..
I'm just amused at all the ranting over a trivial event that has all the forum warriors acting like paranoid schitzos..
This is NOT a small matter. A dev cheated in the game we pay for. We have no proof as of yet, but I'm willing to bet a a 3rd party investigation would reveal more than what is being said. Faith in the game is lost for many players because we don't know what else on top of what was admitted to was done.
...and I'm serious about my eve rebirth idea. CPP - contact me. We'll talk.
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Twoside
Gallente Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:00:00 -
[1224]
Thanks CCP for bringing information out in the open and letting this thread open.
Though this post will most likely get lost in the great mass of replies, I do wish to put forth my sympathy to those employees at CCP and members of BoB alike. All the hard work that many good people put into BoB, in which you have acomplished many great things, have been tarnished by (hopefully) one individual. As someone in this thread said, it takes a lot of people to build a palace, but just one to tear it down.
More important, an employee of CCP compromised the integrity of his entire corporation. Any GM/DEV or even volunteer knows that an abuse of position will lead to expulsion. Abuse of power in this position is a mortal sin, I knew that when I was a gm, CCP knows this and T20 should've known as well. Firing T20 now would indeed be punishing him twice for the same offence, which (at least in my country) legally isn't even possible. Nevertheless, T20 should know - if he is the professional he claims to be - that a dev or gm can't function when his credibility is gone. As a professional he should realise that holding his position now that he is exposed hurts the company he works for more then the result of his no doubt good work can ever compensate. This isn't about false sentiment, but it would serve CCPs interest to clean house and move forwards.
Everybody loses in this situation, but CCP would regain my trust if they clean house, admit to the mistakes made and take measures to prevent the mistakes from being repeated. Maybe it's an idea to have objective observers in this process, or f.i. form a consumer panel bounded by a NDA regarding certain details, to not only add credibility of the inquiries and measures taken, but also as a sign of wanting to regain mutual trust with the player base. I am very sure you have willing and qualified people in your playerbase for this.
Regardless of what happens, I hope this matter can be resolved in a proper way and we can all start enjoying this game to the full again, instead of being sidetracked by things that shouldn't occur.
All the best,
2s
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Livia Tertia
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:01:00 -
[1225]
Hi
Ya know what?
Having drunk on the matter, but not really, I just decided to hagve a social life regardless of anyh CCP shenannigans, ya know what Overu? I like you, you;re not like th eother MMOG person here in the trailor park
CCP unborked labslots. The've added new hardwar.e They're working on rewriting code to make fleet battles not suck.
Unless they do something totally asinien like fail to explain WTF, the hell with you all, I like CCP
Because you know what? The hell with you all. CCP is CCP, and regardless of some miscreant arsehat giginvg t2 bpos to BoB, they're still a damned sight better than any other MMOG company out there. Nowhere else will you have devs actually not only bloody read, but freaking respond to player threads in the forums. Nowhere is there this level of interaction between the players and the developers. Nowhere do players have a real voice; nowhere else are their concerns treated with as much seriousness, however outlandish their ramblings.
Cheating will happen. Humans are idiots; this has been known to anyone with a clue since the dawn of time. I'd rather have a rogue dev giving BoB t2 kladdkaka and paying for it, than to have EVE designed by out of touch godly figures who have no concept of how the game works.
TEST SERVER?! NOT TRANQUILITY MUCH? DO YOU SPEAK IT?!
10 players who manage to log in ain't TQ. The fact that the code ain't the same half the time makes it not TQ.
The majority of devs, I'm quite certain, haven't handed out T2 bpos to BoB. They haven't even handed htem out to me. :( And I swear to god, even if I won the lottery through actual non-shady means, I'd send kladdkaka to CCP HQ. So there. Who can deny Kladdkaka? What Shai-hulud has decreed,will be.
Can t20. I'll shed no tears; an employee of CCP reflects upon CCP; by shady actions, they ruin the reputation of CCP, which - welcome to the real world, will cost CCP money.
But this BS about devs shouldn't be allowed to play on TQ? You sicken me - every last one of you who suggest it. You're the little brats who continually acted up in grade school, forcing moronic teachers to punish a whole class rather than an individual. You're the cataylysts for the destruction of all individuality; you're the death of all responsibility.
Perhaps CCP should just kill EVE off entirely; hey, after all, if a single player cheats, all players must cheat, right? Oh - what, it doesn't work that way? Then why should it for the people who created a game not solely for profit, but a game they wanted to play; who truly believe in and love the world they've created. Should they be denied access to that based on the actions of a single person? If they should be denied, why shouldn't you?
The day the developers of EVE are forbidden to play on TQ is the day that CCP loses all touch with the reality of the game; what happens then? Look to Everquest - look to Dark Age of Camelot; look to SWG; look to a thousand idiots all bearing a sacred 'vision', making changes to a game without any concept of how the game actually works. Numbers on a spreadsheet are wonderful; especially since they so often fail to reflect reality.
Bah, I say.
Bah.
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MrTriggerHappy
Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:01:00 -
[1226]
I'm distgusted.. --------------------------------
My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance |
Walleye
Caldari Northern Lights Mineral Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:03:00 -
[1227]
The fact that CCP knew about the BPO's since last summer and let BoB keep them tells me they thought it was ok.
It also tells me they will cheat unless caught.
I started this game mining Veld in an Ibis with a civilian mining laser until I had enough isk to buy a Bantam..etc..etc..etc..Spent countless hours getting to where I am now never recieving 1 single isk from anyone or anything in or out of game and now I hear this?
Excuse me while I go puke my guts out.
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Bembelritter
Gallente PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:03:00 -
[1228]
i dont think u should fix it all on bob ... maybe they got some advantages from it maybe not.
my question on CCP what do u whanna do this will not happen again with same dev or some other.
in fact what makes me angry, some dev CAN lead some alliance and u try first to brush it under the carpet. so i will wait until end of the month to decide how much trust in this system i have to pay for it. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:04:00 -
[1229]
Originally by: Livia Tertia Hi
Ya know what?
Having drunk on the matter, but not really, I just decided to hagve a social life regardless of anyh CCP shenannigans, ya know what Overu? I like you, you;re not like th eother MMOG person here in the trailor park
CCP unborked labslots. The've added new hardwar.e They're working on rewriting code to make fleet battles not suck.
Unless they do something totally asinien like fail to explain WTF, the hell with you all, I like CCP
Because you know what? The hell with you all. CCP is CCP, and regardless of some miscreant arsehat giginvg t2 bpos to BoB, they're still a damned sight better than any other MMOG company out there. Nowhere else will you have devs actually not only bloody read, but freaking respond to player threads in the forums. Nowhere is there this level of interaction between the players and the developers. Nowhere do players have a real voice; nowhere else are their concerns treated with as much seriousness, however outlandish their ramblings.
Cheating will happen. Humans are idiots; this has been known to anyone with a clue since the dawn of time. I'd rather have a rogue dev giving BoB t2 kladdkaka and paying for it, than to have EVE designed by out of touch godly figures who have no concept of how the game works.
TEST SERVER?! NOT TRANQUILITY MUCH? DO YOU SPEAK IT?!
10 players who manage to log in ain't TQ. The fact that the code ain't the same half the time makes it not TQ.
The majority of devs, I'm quite certain, haven't handed out T2 bpos to BoB. They haven't even handed htem out to me. :( And I swear to god, even if I won the lottery through actual non-shady means, I'd send kladdkaka to CCP HQ. So there. Who can deny Kladdkaka? What Shai-hulud has decreed,will be.
Can t20. I'll shed no tears; an employee of CCP reflects upon CCP; by shady actions, they ruin the reputation of CCP, which - welcome to the real world, will cost CCP money.
But this BS about devs shouldn't be allowed to play on TQ? You sicken me - every last one of you who suggest it. You're the little brats who continually acted up in grade school, forcing moronic teachers to punish a whole class rather than an individual. You're the cataylysts for the destruction of all individuality; you're the death of all responsibility.
Perhaps CCP should just kill EVE off entirely; hey, after all, if a single player cheats, all players must cheat, right? Oh - what, it doesn't work that way? Then why should it for the people who created a game not solely for profit, but a game they wanted to play; who truly believe in and love the world they've created. Should they be denied access to that based on the actions of a single person? If they should be denied, why shouldn't you?
The day the developers of EVE are forbidden to play on TQ is the day that CCP loses all touch with the reality of the game; what happens then? Look to Everquest - look to Dark Age of Camelot; look to SWG; look to a thousand idiots all bearing a sacred 'vision', making changes to a game without any concept of how the game actually works. Numbers on a spreadsheet are wonderful; especially since they so often fail to reflect reality.
Bah, I say.
Bah.
i like you
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Polar Krakhan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:06:00 -
[1230]
Hmm for all yall that feel you have been cheated, and you paid your subscription with a VISA/Mastercard. Ya know if you call them and tell them that you feel like the product (ie EVE-Online fair play) was not delivered to you in a satisfactory and reputable manor they will refund all you money paid to this company for all your accounts during your subscription length. They have to by policy. You have to contact the VISA / Mastercard company themselves but they just refunded 2 1/2 years off subscription for me (4 accounts x 60 months) = ($15 x 240) = ($3600.00). Oh and they take it back from CCP.. It's just the way their policies and the LAW works.
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turumbor
Caldari D00M.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:14:00 -
[1231]
Edited by: turumbor on 10/02/2007 10:10:19 kick t20 and bann the ones that knew ,thats what is need to restore the trust in ccp again, if t20 was giving them bpoŠs think of the intel he will have given them of the changes to come and the stealth nerfs and stuff and how mutch isk that generated! duty is heavier then a moutain, deth is lighter then a fether. |
Unbeliever Kresmoreen
Pro Valde Justicia
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:16:00 -
[1232]
This is only the...
Amirite?
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Ben Derindar
KelBen Productions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:17:00 -
[1233]
No way am I ever gonna get through this entire thread anytime soon, so I just wanna say my piece.
I'm not sure what my feelings are regarding T20's possible fate. Whatever happens, it'll probably be influenced more by how replaceable he is within the company, than by anything any of us have to say about it here.
One thing I am sure of though is this: the end in no way justifies the means. Kug must stay out.
/Ben
How to fix Eve |
Counterparty
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:19:00 -
[1234]
Just savor the maturation process as thousands of boys realize Eve is not the perfect girlfriend they wanted her to be. Even Hollywood scripts wouldn't use the page after page after page of indignation displayed in this thread. Young Gamer: Eve, you're so coo11111one. Eve: I love you too, but I have to come clean. I cheated. Young Gamer: Noooooooo!!!! Eve: I am so very sorry. I love you too. Young Gamer: Don't even look at me right now. You disgust me. I am cancelling this relationship. Eve: Maybe in time you can forgive me? Young Gamer: How could you do this to me? I trusted you. I believed in you! Eve: I can't say how sorry I am I betrayed your trust. Young Gamer: What else have you done? Is this relationship all lies?! Eve: I gave you the best experience I could. Please believe me. I know you are hurting right now. Would another downtime help? After downtime.. Gamer: I need you too Eve. Eve: I'm so proud of you. You've grown. Lets make this relationship work.
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August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:21:00 -
[1235]
Originally by: Unbeliever Kresmoreen This is only the...
Amirite?
no
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JINX HSC
North Star Networks Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:21:00 -
[1236]
For all of you that are going to quit .. can i have your stuff??? - KLADDKAKA -
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Hikari Kisugi
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:22:00 -
[1237]
Edited by: Hikari Kisugi on 10/02/2007 10:18:38
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER. * T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious.
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
I'd like to see these two points refuted. It would be an easy investigation to see if players were sharing IPs. If they are found innocent then kieron can post such on the other thread where he has been answering the questions raised in this thread. If found to have been sharing then suitable action can be taken by CCP to restore community confidence, but now this allegation has been made, it needs to be refuted, so people will know it has been investigated. ----- 'The worst spot in hell is reserved for those who betray.'
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:25:00 -
[1238]
Originally by: Polar Krakhan Hmm for all yall that feel you have been cheated, and you paid your subscription with a VISA/Mastercard. Ya know if you call them and tell them that you feel like the product (ie EVE-Online fair play) was not delivered to you in a satisfactory and reputable manor they will refund all you money paid to this company for all your accounts during your subscription length. They have to by policy. You have to contact the VISA / Mastercard company themselves but they just refunded 2 1/2 years off subscription for me (4 accounts x 60 months) = ($15 x 240) = ($3600.00). Oh and they take it back from CCP.. It's just the way their policies and the LAW works.
wow thats pretty damn good maybe the people who will quit over this might actually make ccp think twice about lieing to us again.
i will continue playing eve-online but theres no way in hell i will ever buy any other game ccp do.
btw ive seen full refunds from other mmos just because there servers were crap and kept crashing , anyone remember dark and light? just about everyone who bought that game got a refund based solely on the fact it sucked
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:28:00 -
[1239]
Lets all in EVE that believe the CCP staff aint listening to our concerns work together.
lets work towards one common goal.
Lets "Band" together.
Lets destroy BOB.
If we all work together, we can do it and CCP cant do nothing about it! (they have chosen to do nothing anyhow)
Cheaters never prosper! |
TIOOO
Caldari Shadow Company Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:31:00 -
[1240]
lmao that would be interesting DESTROY BOB! lol naaaaaaaa so what BOB got lucky used an asset sh*t happens if for example RA got the treatment bet no one owuld give a damn...... just get on with it oooooooooh and btw anyone quitting eve cause of this CONTRACT YOUR STUFF RIGHT HERE! Signature Removed due size. Limits are 400 * 120 pixels and max. filesize is 24000bytes. - Eshtir |
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Batataille
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:34:00 -
[1241]
lol the last dev blog of t20 is real funny, how can I trust a cheater ?
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Andreas Kallesoee
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:34:00 -
[1242]
he admidtede to the small sin of having aquierede the BPOs, the only problem is that it just proves that what else was exposed from the BoB boards proberbly was true, so unless CCP comes up with good evidence to the contrary this will tarnish them for a LONG time
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Turtla
U Itachi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:35:00 -
[1243]
just one thing: lost trust in CCP
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Haldane IV
Einstein's Dreams
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:35:00 -
[1244]
To T20 I hope you have sent an apology to the Corporation whose reputation you have impugned so badly.
Your employers should not have to fire you. You should resign.
To BoB You have some hard thinking to do, good luck with that. Can I suggest you consider making a start by publishing an open letter asking any of your members who is a CCP employee, to find another Corp?
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Frug
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:35:00 -
[1245]
Edited by: Frug on 10/02/2007 10:31:55
Originally by: Spinnukur
Glad to see that BOBBIT, slaves are finally starting to crawl out of their CAVES and respond...
Now I'm absolutely convinced the only problem here is insanely paranoid obsessive crazies.
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Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:36:00 -
[1246]
CCP, why are CCP employees handing out free recommendations for RKK members CV's and tells them to apply to CCP.
who is lord stone? he apparently have been heavily involved in this bob mess also.
why have sirmolle/shrike not been banned yet?, posting RL names and adresses on these forums makes you permaban ppl instantly when they are not a member of BOD.
so many things you havent touched yet CCP, you throw a single bone and think it will be enough while trying to cover up the rest. disgusting.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
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Itzena
Amarr OtakuDyne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:36:00 -
[1247]
Nah, CCP have lost the trust of their playerbase, and the word-of-mouth which made the game is now going to break it. This news is all over every MMOG site on the web and is starting to hit general techie sites like Slashdot et al, and the general reaction is: "Oh, that's a shame. CCP seemed smarter than that. Well, better cross EVE off my list"
CCP need to man up* and take some real actions (firing T20 would be a start), instead of stonewalling and whitewashing.
*No offence intended to any females, hermaphrodites or eunuchs. -- I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy... I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power... I want us to be what we used to be. |
meepsheep
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:38:00 -
[1248]
on the subject of cheating was this accusation of insider knowledge ever investigated? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=424733
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Aayan
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:40:00 -
[1249]
sweet I am 1338 just destroyed the 1337 :) -Steve
- B E A G L E C O R P - |
Frug
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:41:00 -
[1250]
Originally by: Itzena Nah, CCP have lost the trust of their playerbase, and the word-of-mouth which made the game is now going to break it. This news is all over every MMOG site on the web and is starting to hit general techie sites like Slashdot et al, and the general reaction is: "Oh, that's a shame. CCP seemed smarter than that. Well, better cross EVE off my list"
CCP need to man up* and take some real actions (firing T20 would be a start), instead of stonewalling and whitewashing.
*No offence intended to any females, hermaphrodites or eunuchs.
I find it amusing you think the forum *****es you see here and elsewhere constitute the whole playerbase.
Apparently I'm a bobbit slave? You people are absolutely nuts and need to go for a walk or something. Holy.
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Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:41:00 -
[1251]
Not sure about reading all these pages. But when this was discovered, they found him guilty and gave him a sentence, and thats it. We can discuss if it was enough bla bla, but they have reactet on it. We cant change that verdict now, if we should go around change all verdicts done in RL there wouldnt be any safety in any law system all over the world.
He might got off easy, but i will not start my own vandetta against either BOB or CCP
I will keep on playing, proberbly for years to come. He "might" have given them 14 bil worth of junk, but in alliance sized econemy that is peanuts. Yes they have had a werry "dark" bennefit, but again ccp have reactet on it and have done what they at that time thought was ok, no way in hell a man should loose hes job this far after cause of it...
TBear
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deadEd
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:42:00 -
[1252]
Originally by: TIOOO lmao that would be interesting DESTROY BOB! lol naaaaaaaa so what BOB got lucky used an asset sh*t happens if for example RA got the treatment bet no one owuld give a damn......
That's an interesting (if not completely sad) tactic. Take a valid issue of dev corruption and try to turn it into an issue about who's benefiting rather than who's cheating and why nothing was being done about it.
Granted there's a lot of people bandwagoning this likely hoping to see BoB take a fall for it, but that doesn't mean the issue is trivial or should be overlooked; quite the opposite in fact. Imagine for a moment it WAS RA that had the favours rather than BoB - wouldn't it give you a bit of a sick feeling knowing that when you couldn't put them away when you had the chance, that it was possibly dev help that kept them alive? Wouldn't it kind of make you feel like all of your efforts were pointless? Granted, that didn't happen, and the dev involvement in BoB may not have been anywhere near severe enough to influence things in that way. The issue itself is still very real, and any efforts on anyone's part to cloud it and try to turn it into an anti-BoB issue will just propagate it further.
The bottom line is this: any time allegations of devs cheating comes up, they need to be addressed and rectified ASAP. CCP decided not to do this, and now they're eating a nice big **** sandwich because of it. Hopefully a lesson has been learned on their part here.
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Kayosoni
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:44:00 -
[1253]
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Wow. All dev characters must leave any 0.0 alliance now.
and then the game will get even worse. GOOD THINKING. -----------------------------------
btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai |
Andris
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:44:00 -
[1254]
I am really impressed that Bob didnt hijack this thread as they do to allmost all others containing the word "Bob". Why is that? This isnt the first time the accusations comes up, 3 years ago there was a rumour that Mo0 got isk from somewhere, could those roumors be true? I think that even the chance of this beeing true is disturbing.... Just my 2 p |
maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:45:00 -
[1255]
i for one think that all inquiries that have been made so far aswell as all into this event should be made public. we as a mass have been lied to behind out back, can we then trust that this investigation wasnt a masquerade?? , this in some way would restore our trust. every one knew through folklaw that the devs were in bob and that the servers ran smother in there regions compared to say the north, but we delt with it, to go this far and to activly seek to make the game better for them selfs as employees of ccp put into question "should a company allow is staff to take part in games of chance?" you hear it every were about employees not allowed to enter prize draws as it would be seen as a unfair situation, so why should this be any diffrent? the law does state that we can get a full refund (international law not just national) based on a product not been of the standar you reqired, the only reson i wont do that AND the reason i would urge others not to is , its a fking good game i for one enjoy playing and im sure those who payed also enjoy it? but i would like to see this made fully public and devs been unable to play. sounds harsh but its the only true way to stop it even happening by chance again Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:47:00 -
[1256]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 10:09:38 Well guess i'll go ahead and take a side now as the loonyness is getting thick in here..
as if every post of yours hasn't been trying to minimize the issue or direct it away from the culprits :/
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
He's a Dev and not bound by the EULA.. End of argument..
That may be the case, but that doesn't absolve him of his duty to ensure fair gameplay for everyone, not superior gameplay for him and his corpmates/alliancemates in bob.
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus [ As far as the 'trust' issue I know that if I was a Dev you could be damned sure I'd spawn whatever I needed in some discreet fashion instead of grinding for it..
so you're a dishonest, cheating (if you could) malfeasant. Got it.
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus [ Do other Devs do that too? I have no idea and could care less as long as they are not giving out any unfair advantages to whomever they are playing with.. And thats the rub.. You don't know that they are not doing that.. But stop and take a nice few deeps breaths and think for a minute on the whole situation.. It would be the sheerest starkest stupidity for any of the Devs to favor one player group over another.. Look at how paranoid the masses have become because a lone Dev [/b]acked a few ammo bpos[/b] for the convience of it.. No nefarious motives.. Just a bit of lazyness.. And look at the responce.. Now think about how this thread would be if a Dev actually did help an alliance and if they did someone would have to be in the know and it would eventually get out.. My monitor would probably melt as soon as I loaded the page I'm sure..
I think the Devs are a bit smarter than that..
you obviously haven't been paying attention. He's also given over a malediction (interceptor) and sabre (interdictor) - both tech _2_ blueprints not available on any market for any price - to bob after he was outed. Not only that, CCP KNEW and still didn't recover the bpos or rectify the situation in any other manner than a slap on the wrist "bad boy you dev. Now I have to rename^Wdelete your accout."
The point is he was in a position of power - ULTIMATE power - in the game and used it to benefit a very limited, select few to the absolute detriment of others. Those "insignificant" bpos would've brought anyone multiple 10s of billions of isk - not chump change - to other organizations and players. And this is just the cheating we KNOW about. How much other behind the scenes back scratching has been going on for YEARS now? Extra officer spawns here and there, the odd cyno alt being transported to a key cyno waypoint? All those node crashes people chalked up to incredibly bad luck? God only knows what else.
As you are obviously a bob alt, its understandable you'd take this position. Self preservation and all that.
The trust between CCP and the honest players has been broken by CCP itself by its inexplicable avoidance of appropriate action. There are things that can be done:
1) Axe t20 along with any other CCP collaborators, period. Per CCPs own rules this should be the first step - cut out the cancer. 2) remove - DISSOLVE the t2 bpos that were associated with t20, whether they were legitimate or not they are now tainted by mistrust. Reseed them in the lottery. 3) remove all other spawned or manipulated items, isk and objects that came across any of the tainted gms' hands 4) top to bottom audit of everything done by any CCP employee on any of their accounts on tranq. Mete out proper punishment. 5) Ban those that egregiously violated the eula - buying/selling accounts/isk/items for real life cash?? 6) Either unban Kugutsumen's accounts or ban molle - make it equal 6) *MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL* Full disclosure. We, the paying (for now) eve public demand to know all that transpired in these events and any others related and tainted by these actions. ========== CELES KB: http://celes.griefwatch.net bobKB:http://www.killboard.net
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Maximus barabus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:48:00 -
[1257]
Quote:
and then the game will get even worse. GOOD THINKING.
get worse for who bob? us? i think not. your allaince after it has cheated and caught with its hand in the cookie jar? yeah. a crimanal deed in rl has a punishment why should a game (modeling its self with rl poeple like any mmoprg) be any diffrent?
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JohnStar
Caldari Grail Seekers NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:54:00 -
[1258]
they gave bob t2 bpo's but they cant fix the CHIMERA SIZE !!!!a bloody cruiser is bigger than the carriers.
The Greatest and Most Handsome Male in The EVE Universe..........also GOD'S gift to Woman.
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Horatio Nately
Caldari Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:55:00 -
[1259]
it should be noted that the Devs should at least still be allowed to play the game, only with a little more 'big brother' monitoring of their accounts than regular users. Why should they not get to enjoy the fruits of their labor? The less they'll get out of working on the game, the less they'll put into it IMO.
--------------------------------------- My Usual Feedback: Pro BoB post = omg you suck up stfu. Anti BoB Post = omg add more tinfoil.
Maybe its just my own opinion? |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:56:00 -
[1260]
Originally by: Kayosoni
Originally by: Amiable Quinn Wow. All dev characters must leave any 0.0 alliance now.
and then the game will get even worse. GOOD THINKING.
Didn't this mess made the game worse?
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:56:00 -
[1261]
Turn CCP into a PLC make the community subscribers shareholders. I think its the only way anyone will trust CCP again if they have a say in the running of the company.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
deadEd
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:57:00 -
[1262]
Originally by: Maximus barabus get worse for who bob? us? i think not. your allaince after it has cheated and caught with its hand in the cookie jar? yeah. a crimanal deed in rl has a punishment why should a game (modeling its self with rl poeple like any mmoprg) be any diffrent?
Have you ever heard of theorycrafting? It's when people design ship fittings and loadouts without ever actually testing them and trying to pass them off as valid. Sometimes they're ok, but a lot of times they have some critical failing that, without actually flying it, they wouldn't have noticed.
Theorycrafting for ships is annoying. Now, try to imagine a team of devs trying to design the full 0.0 gameplay experience without ever actually experiencing it. Imagine how completely and utterly painful it would be to have sweeping changes in say, POS mechanics without even the slightest idea of how that would affect anything in practice. We already get nonsense like "how to kill a Titan with 20 ships" with devs playing in 0.0 alliances...imagine how bad it would get if they didn't?
THAT'S why devs should not just be wanted, but NEEDED in game. The issue that needs to be fixed is how closely they're monitored for wrongdoings, since this whole mess makes it clear that they can't be bound to any kind of honour system.
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baaaaal
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:58:00 -
[1263]
Edited by: baaaaal on 10/02/2007 10:55:33
Originally by: Andris I am really impressed that Bob didnt hijack this thread as they do to allmost all others containing the word "Bob". Why is that? This isnt the first time the accusations comes up, 3 years ago there was a rumour that Mo0 got isk from somewhere, could those roumors be true? I think that even the chance of this beeing true is disturbing.... Just my 2 p
"proof or stfu" cant be posted here
Quote: Theorycrafting for ships is annoying. Now, try to imagine a team of devs trying to design the full 0.0 gameplay experience without ever actually experiencing it. Imagine how completely and utterly painful it would be to have sweeping changes in say, POS mechanics without even the slightest idea of how that would affect anything in practice. We already get nonsense like "how to kill a Titan with 20 ships" with devs playing in 0.0 alliances...imagine how bad it would get if they didn't?
/emote wonders what the test server is for, i thought it was for testing things like that before they hit tq.
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Mayoz Miner
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:59:00 -
[1264]
Hi,
Im fairly new to EVE in the scheme of things and I think this is the best MMO I have played and I have played a few.
I am considering quitting though and I dont think I will play another MMO for a good few years, I really did think I had found a game where there was a realative level playing field with no major cheating influences (macro miners/farmers are in all games and very hard to eliminate so I just accept them now).
This incident hasn't effected me directly in the short term but it gives me a sense of futility for the future as I will never be able to compete, unless I join an alliance that cheats, such as this BoB I hear alot about. But that's not how I play at MMO's.
Well done t20 (and the other who got away with it players and DEV's alike), I wonder if you can apprieciate how you have ruined the game for alot of players with your what I can only describe as your utter disgusting selfishness, yea I bet you don't even care tbh. If t20 has to keep his job for legal reasons then make him a runner or a coffee boy.
I ALSO FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THE HONEST, HARDWORKING AND PASSIONATE PEOPLE AT CCP
Inconclusion I feel sad and disheartened. I can only feel that this is just 'The tip of the iceberg' and I don't feel t20 is sorry for what he's done he is just sorry for being caught . At the moment I see no place or future for the people that are in alliances/corporations that don't cheat and thus can't compete. What is the point ?
Please answer this question, What is the point of striving to be the best at what you do in EVE if the STAFF are competeing and cheating against you ?
Oh and the corporations/allainaces should have all there assets stripped then be dismantled and decimated forever. This will serve as a warning to other would be cheaters.(this should be done from a roleplay point of view aswell, with a bit of creative writting).
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DevilHanzo
Gallente Acuario Mining Industries Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:00:00 -
[1265]
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
How nieve do you think we are ? Now you are playing us for fools, that I resent.
How about asking t20 who was involved, oh no wait, he will probably just lie.
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Gritt Pebbledasher
Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:01:00 -
[1266]
As a 3 year vet (and not an ebay resale) I have today cancelled my two accounts citing 'Game imbalance' with the following note attached:
Quote: CCP/BoB collusion and specifically the high handed, ongoing coverup attendant to it. Its only the threat of costing CCP money that will have any impact on this issue and so I choose to vote with my wallet.
Its clear to me that t20 is the fall guy for this but its also standard practice to admit to the lesser charges against you in order to avoid dealing with the more serious ones. It is my hope that a wave of unsubscriptions will be the actual wakeup call CCP needs to deal properly with this situation - if this is done then I (and others) can renew our subs in full confidence of not paying to play a horribly rigged game.
PURE EXTERNAL RELATIONS ---------------------------------------
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InnerDrive
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:01:00 -
[1267]
Edited by: InnerDrive on 10/02/2007 10:57:59 way to deep hidden
I been with this game and its creators since closed beta phase 2, ive loved and im still loving this game.
I woudent believe all the stuff that was going on, the stuff T20 did...
I read it finaly today and i came to the conclusion that this has to stop.
Im sorry guys but, u have to stop playing the game on TQ!.
Reason is simple and i think u know it, u guys influence the game progression wayyy to much, i can think of dozens of examples were simple knowledge (NOT hacking or cheating or spawning stuff like everyone seems to focus on),but simple kwowledge and than putting urself in a leading role in a corp or alliance is causing very serious harm to this game.
- market brokering (buyin stuff u know will be in high demand later on in the game) - telling people to go to certain places to get expensive loot by exploration (u made the game, u know where they are)
From these 2 things alone u can make hundreds of billions especialy if u share ur knowledge with a entire alliance.
This stuff completely unbalances alliances and certain groups in the game by ur influence.
This has to stop!, i dont think i can take this game seriously anymore knowing that ur messing it up like that...
I will for now stick with u guys trough this but i will not take this game seriously anymore on a alliance scale, its a puppetshow played by u guys and the lucky people ur alliance with become unbalanced strong.
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Sacred Valkyrie
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:02:00 -
[1268]
Edited by: Sacred Valkyrie on 10/02/2007 11:03:57 Edited by: Sacred Valkyrie on 10/02/2007 11:00:29 Edited by: Sacred Valkyrie on 10/02/2007 11:00:05 Edited by: Sacred Valkyrie on 10/02/2007 10:58:30 After reading so many pages I can say without a doubt;
CCP you lose, you have lost the trust the community once had in you.
T20, GJ on keeping your Job, you sicken me to the core.
The players involved, nice going in ruining a great game.
Good bye Eve may you rest in peace.2003-2007
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deadEd
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:02:00 -
[1269]
Originally by: baaaaal /emote wonders what the test server is for, i thought it was for testing things like that before they hit tq.
The test server absolutely CANNOT give you a feel for how the game actually plays itself out. In fact, suggesting that it would be enough is exactly the kind of broken thinking I was talking about - something working in theory is much different than something working in practice. Just because some method or balance change or whatever works in theory in Singularity doesn't mean it won't horribly break something when 2 150+ man fleets end up engaging in a system.
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KiLLaH KLoWN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:03:00 -
[1270]
Originally by: Mayoz Miner Hi,
Im fairly new to EVE in the scheme of things and I think this is the best MMO I have played and I have played a few.
I am considering quitting though and I dont think I will play another MMO for a good few years, I really did think I had found a game where there was a realative level playing field with no major cheating influences (macro miners/farmers are in all games and very hard to eliminate so I just accept them now).
This incident hasn't effected me directly in the short term but it gives me a sense of futility for the future as I will never be able to compete, unless I join an alliance that cheats, such as this BoB I hear alot about. But that's not how I play at MMO's.
Well done t20 (and the other who got away with it players and DEV's alike), I wonder if you can apprieciate how you have ruined the game for alot of players with your what I can only describe as your utter disgusting selfishness, yea I bet you don't even care tbh. If t20 has to keep his job for legal reasons then make him a runner or a coffee boy.
I ALSO FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THE HONEST, HARDWORKING AND PASSIONATE PEOPLE AT CCP
Inconclusion I feel sad and disheartened. I can only feel that this is just 'The tip of the iceberg' and I don't feel t20 is sorry for what he's done he is just sorry for being caught . At the moment I see no place or future for the people that are in alliances/corporations that don't cheat and thus can't compete. What is the point ?
Please answer this question, What is the point of striving to be the best at what you do in EVE if the STAFF are competeing and cheating against you ?
Oh and the corporations/allainaces should have all there assets stripped then be dismantled and decimated forever. This will serve as a warning to other would be cheaters.(this should be done from a roleplay point of view aswell, with a bit of creative writting).
You made the newbie miner cry CCP!!! SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR CHEATING WAYS!
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Soryn Kael
The Sanctum
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:03:00 -
[1271]
The well is poisoned. How must it look to all the people who tuned in to EveTV to see BoB win the tournaments and now they know that BoB benefitted from illegal Dev help.
I don't think anyone here sincerely believes that the BPOs were all the help BoB got and people really think that they're now second class players behind BoB's most favored status.
Unless this is dealt with effectively and probably harshly it's going to be the cancer that destroys Eve's upward mobility. It's really a shame for a game this good to be ruined by a few people who can't play by the same rules as everybody else.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:04:00 -
[1272]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth you obviously haven't been paying attention. He's also given over a malediction (interceptor) and sabre (interdictor) - both tech _2_ blueprints not available on any market for any price - to bob after he was outed. Not only that, CCP KNEW and still didn't recover the bpos or rectify the situation in any other manner than a slap on the wrist "bad boy you dev. Now I have to rename^Wdelete your accout."
Irrelevant as they are not in BoBs hands anymore.. And in the big picture of massive alliance warfare the extra income from the bpos would be a grain of sand in a desert.. So while it profited him and maybe a few unknowing corp mates it had negligeble effect on the course of BoBs wars..
Quote: The point is he was in a position of power - ULTIMATE power - in the game and used it to benefit a very limited, select few to the absolute detriment of others. Those "insignificant" bpos would've brought anyone multiple 10s of billions of isk - not chump change - to other organizations and players. And this is just the cheating we KNOW about. How much other behind the scenes back scratching has been going on for YEARS now? Extra officer spawns here and there, the odd cyno alt being transported to a key cyno waypoint? All those node crashes people chalked up to incredibly bad luck? God only knows what else.
Pure unbridled paranoia.. Take some lithium and chill..
Quote: As you are obviously a bob alt, its understandable you'd take this position. Self preservation and all that.
Actually I'm Santa Claus.. Oh Don't believe that? Then any other names are pointless to give..
Quote: The trust between CCP and the honest players has been broken by CCP itself by its inexplicable avoidance of appropriate action. There are things that can be done:
1) Axe t20 along with any other CCP collaborators, period. Per CCPs own rules this should be the first step - cut out the cancer. 2) remove - DISSOLVE the t2 bpos that were associated with t20, whether they were legitimate or not they are now tainted by mistrust. Reseed them in the lottery. 3) remove all other spawned or manipulated items, isk and objects that came across any of the tainted gms' hands 4) top to bottom audit of everything done by any CCP employee on any of their accounts on tranq. Mete out proper punishment. 5) Ban those that egregiously violated the eula - buying/selling accounts/isk/items for real life cash?? 6) Either unban Kugutsumen's accounts or ban molle - make it equal 6) *MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL* Full disclosure. We, the paying (for now) eve public demand to know all that transpired in these events and any others related and tainted by these act
You *must* work for the IRS or a tax law firm.. Tell us plz..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:05:00 -
[1273]
Originally by: InnerDrive Edited by: InnerDrive on 10/02/2007 10:57:59 way to deep hidden
I been with this game and its creators since closed beta phase 2, ive loved and im still loving this game.
I woudent believe all the stuff that was going on, the stuff T20 did...
I read it finaly today and i came to the conclusion that this has to stop.
Im sorry guys but, u have to stop playing the game on TQ!.
Reason is simple and i think u know it, u guys influence the game progression wayyy to much, i can think of dozens of examples were simple knowledge (NOT hacking or cheating or spawning stuff like everyone seems to focus on),but simple kwowledge and than putting urself in a leading role in a corp or alliance is causing very serious harm to this game.
- market brokering (buyin stuff u know will be in high demand later on in the game) - telling people to go to certain places to get expensive loot by exploration (u made the game, u know where they are)
From these 2 things alone u can make hundreds of billions especialy if u share ur knowledge with a entire alliance.
This stuff completely unbalances alliances and certain groups in the game by ur influence.
This has to stop!, i dont think i can take this game seriously anymore knowing that ur messing it up like that...
I will for now stick with u guys trough this but i will not take this game seriously anymore on a alliance scale, its a puppetshow played by u guys and the lucky people ur alliance with become unbalanced strong.
I spent aloot off time thinking about quiting.But now i will join a alliance that is actually figthing BoV and kick them out Of the face off EVE .Cancers must be removed.
|
ceaon
Gallente Porandor
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:07:00 -
[1274]
Q: why Sirmolle dont get banned ? posting RL details is not against EULA ????????? @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@
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Comstr
Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:07:00 -
[1275]
I trust CCP can see how serious the playerbase takes this. More serious than CCP does it seems.
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KiLLaH KLoWN
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:09:00 -
[1276]
Sometimes I look at some of these alts posting and wonder if they're Devs just talking junk to keep people in game or just make it all look sunny....
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Trovarion
Gallente Spiritus Draconis Endless Horizon
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:10:00 -
[1277]
Originally by: Sral TBear I will keep on playing, proberbly for years to come. He "might" have given them 14 bil worth of junk, but in alliance sized econemy that is peanuts.
14 billion would probably fuell my gameplay for hmmm 4 years? It's not peanuts...at least for the mortal EVE player which I think makes the majority of the player base...
custom made signatures and banners |
DevilHanzo
Gallente Acuario Mining Industries Combined Planetary Union
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:10:00 -
[1278]
I was just browsing other news stories relating to this and one of the main sites, i won't plug them here, is plastered and links straight to burning crusade adverts. Some clever marketing going on there i think.
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August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:11:00 -
[1279]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN Sometimes I look at some of these alts posting and wonder if they're Devs just talking junk to keep people in game or just make it all look sunny....
sometimes i look at some of these alts posting an wonder if they're just morons talking junk to keep their conspiracy theories alive or just make it look like its worse than it actually is.....
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:11:00 -
[1280]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 11:08:07
Originally by: Comstr I trust CCP can see how serious the playerbase takes this. More serious than CCP does it seems.
What playerbase? Dont you mean forumites? There is like maybe 40 unique posters in this whole thread out of a population of 180,000..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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Maximus barabus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:12:00 -
[1281]
Originally by: deadEd
Originally by: Maximus barabus get worse for who bob? us? i think not. your allaince after it has cheated and caught with its hand in the cookie jar? yeah. a crimanal deed in rl has a punishment why should a game (modeling its self with rl poeple like any mmoprg) be any diffrent?
Have you ever heard of theorycrafting? It's when people design ship fittings and loadouts without ever actually testing them and trying to pass them off as valid. Sometimes they're ok, but a lot of times they have some critical failing that, without actually flying it, they wouldn't have noticed.
Theorycrafting for ships is annoying. Now, try to imagine a team of devs trying to design the full 0.0 gameplay experience without ever actually experiencing it. Imagine how completely and utterly painful it would be to have sweeping changes in say, POS mechanics without even the slightest idea of how that would affect anything in practice. We already get nonsense like "how to kill a Titan with 20 ships" with devs playing in 0.0 alliances...imagine how bad it would get if they didn't?
THAT'S why devs should not just be wanted, but NEEDED in game. The issue that needs to be fixed is how closely they're monitored for wrongdoings, since this whole mess makes it clear that they can't be bound to any kind of honour system.
thats why i said punished. you dont eradicate people in rl for crimes but they are stillpunished or Limited in some way to either stop them or to remind them that what they did , or can do is wrong
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August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:18:00 -
[1282]
Edited by: August Personage on 10/02/2007 11:15:21
Originally by: Cowboy Ramrott well i dont trust u anymor CCP
fire the GM's and hire new ones , my opinion
we come for you , Band of Dev's , u cheaters
yes fire the GM's, the fact that it was a dev that spawned the bpos has nothing to do with it. FIRE ZE GMS!
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Joskken Inx
J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:18:00 -
[1283]
It's sad that I see Gritt here, saying just about what I'm saying. It's exactly like playing Monopoly with the guy doing the Banker role cheating. How do you overcome that? I don't know, I'd never put myself out there like that, on such a scale as this is. It's malfeasance. The Butterfly Effect is bigger than I can imagine. And it's sad that after chuckling over all the conspiracy theories that all of a sudden...well... And what's worse is being "assured" that this/these incidents are not only limited in nature, but confined to a select few. I can't say I can believe that in whole or in part. You could probably pull this **** in the Beta phase of a game but now?
Even worse, is all the pandering and kowtowing so many did for BoB.
I'm not going to dwell on it any more. Those of you who stay and honestly think going on like this isn't the game-ending event it really is, go on, have fun. You'll never get ahead of this. Nobody will. Unless there is a major, game altering restructure (that won't happen) the die is cast and the mold has been created. Eve Online is nothing more than a happy game for a bunch of Icelanders to play and "win" at.
Great job.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:19:00 -
[1284]
Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 11:15:56
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 11:08:07
Originally by: Comstr I trust CCP can see how serious the playerbase takes this. More serious than CCP does it seems.
What playerbase? Dont you mean forumites? There is like maybe 40 unique posters in this whole thread out of a population of 180,000..
Amen, and it are mostly people that got defeated by bob or have some grudge against them. :) |
SNeAkYbRiT
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:19:00 -
[1285]
I've just read the DEVS replies about all this and to be honest it seems u are taking no notice of your customers yet again...u are killing the game that u created, but hey u made it so u can break it...guess ya made enough cash to not give a damn.
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Daragon Zex
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:19:00 -
[1286]
Originally by: Livia Tertia
lots of drunken(but not really) sense
Thank god for beer. A few people here could use a pint (or 16) to calm down.
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:21:00 -
[1287]
Edited by: pumkinlumpkin on 10/02/2007 11:17:48 ok time to go to bed but i can say this ccp you suck. I am sorry i invested thousand of dollars in you game to be bent over by your employees and their pets BOB.
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:21:00 -
[1288]
Originally by: Ervilha II So CCP knew all since summer and only remove the BPO's now ?!!
What does it for me, is that they didnt tell us anything, before a good guy uncovered the secret. Now CCP is suffering. But you made this situation yourself.
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Hindgrinder Jr
Minmatar Eve Game Card Co
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:21:00 -
[1289]
Originally by: ChemicalQueen ...and I'm serious about my eve rebirth idea. CPP - contact me. We'll talk. [)
I'm certain many are thinking about it... How else can they really level the playing field now? Many of the quitting players would probably be willing to keep playing on a differnt server.... It's the best way to restore confidence and boost sales at the same time.
hmmm...hope they are listening...
CH
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:23:00 -
[1290]
so next time someone account is banned for a minor infrigement of the eula.
I think a law suit against ccp could happen. people pay money for this game and fraud and corruption is rife it seems.
ccp have not banned people for major infridgements of the EULA, so why are paying customers so poorly treated.
ccp better have some very good lawyers
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
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Danny Hawk
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:23:00 -
[1291]
im goin to say this as a memebr of the community not a memebr of tmpl.
Ive never hated bob infact i know alot of players in bob and bob freindly corps and i beleieve that the normal players didnt know about this and tbh i fel really sry for them, can u imagine thinkin uve achieve so much in there time only to find out now that it was all in vain and ure now labelled a cheater along with all ure alliance. the guys in bob i know would fell just as if not more outraged by this than we do, and id be really shocked if they stay with bob now.
Kieron, thanks for aleast tryin to answer the questions here i know alot of other mmo companys would justve said stfu or leave we dont really care.
To the leadership of bob, (excluding dice) i aint bothered about the acount sharing and **** as we all know this happens in eve, this this about takin the bpo's from t20, i cant beleieve u didnt think it would come back and bite u in the ass. if u didnt then, then ure turely deserve whats whats coming.
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:24:00 -
[1292]
Well, I kept quiet. I personally had hoped the allegations were untrue, that when BoB and ASCN duked it out, the only advantage to be had was in leadership, and PLAYER-BUILT INFRASTRUCTURE.
As it turns out, BoB had an unfairly gained advantage, and the alliance I helped support by running and contributing to extended mining ops to replace war losses was overrun by an alliance that, at the very least, unknowingly received illicit gain, and at the very worst KNOWINGLY received that aid.
Oh, and then it comes out that T20's cheat was known, yet the BPO's remained in-game. That is beyond unfair. I don't even know a word for it. I've loved this game since I first saw a trailer for it (Angelice Prime), back in '02. Right now I'm debating whether I want to continue. What's the point, if by joining the wrong player alliance all my efforts, contributions, and pew pew comes to naught with the wave of the magic wand of favoritism?
Sad day, CCP. You have MUCH yet to do in regards to this matter. ___________________________________
Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ |
mafesto
Minmatar Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:24:00 -
[1293]
wow, thats all I can say
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:27:00 -
[1294]
Originally by: aggro so next time someone account is banned for a minor infrigement of the eula.
I think a law suit against ccp could happen. people pay money for this game and fraud and corruption is rife it seems.
ccp have not banned people for major infridgements of the EULA, so why are paying customers so poorly treated.
ccp better have some very good lawyers
I love how people that read law-for-dummies always manage to make themselves look like complete tards. |
Carth Jared
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:28:00 -
[1295]
They should demote t20 to traffic duty tbh. Let him fly a concord ship around at some god forsaken gate :P
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Jenson Cole
Red Dagger Fleet
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:28:00 -
[1296]
It's sad to see this happen but it did. my recomendation would be to 'request' the Dev responsible for this to resign. Offer him a severence packagage whatever and with the statement that he resigns from CCP leave the door open for giving a recomendation to his next employer.
A very similar situatio DID happen a few months ago. A Dev spawned himself some rather unique equipment and got caught by a group of pirates. They blew his ship and looted it. A situation where they refused to turn over the items insued followed by CCP Banning them temporarily to aquire the items back and remove them from game.
The Dev Blog that followed stated that the person responsible was terminated from there Employment with CCP.
As much as this DEV was loved/hated by the game consistantcy needs to be present in terms of how punishment is delt.
I won't go into the BoB punishment from this but either way there will be some form of shakeup potentially. I know the laws vary from country to country but if the person who was fired prior got wind of this and learned the Dev was not terminated it'd leave CCP open for a potential lawsuit.
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Carth Jared
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:29:00 -
[1297]
Edited by: Carth Jared on 10/02/2007 11:25:20 whops
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:29:00 -
[1298]
Item Spawning by Dev (caught by a player) t20 cheating and effectivly getting away with it (caught by a player) Aurora/Event Staff passing information to their player corps ISD bias Polaris Frigs used to scout enemy territories player haxing (and ignored by CCP) HOW DEEP IS THIS POISONED WELL ?
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Unbeliever Kresmoreen
Pro Valde Justicia
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:30:00 -
[1299]
Dear Players,
I'm absolutely abhorred that someone was able to catch me in my wrongdoings. In order to secure my position, we'll be renaming my characters and giving back 6 of the few dozen bpo's i spawned (the less important ones).
Fear not, absolutely noone in the alliance knew i'd done this. They just assumed i was real real lucky with the lottery (wink wink).
And don't worry, ill be sure to clean up Db logs far more effectively in the future, to ensure noone from the public finds out next time i feel like dropping a few motherships in delve.
<3.
This pat on the head proudly brought to you by CCP
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:30:00 -
[1300]
wow 47 pages of:
- Omg bob must be banzored - omg he cheated, banzor him and everyone else we dont like with him - omg I will close my account if you dont banzor -insert victim- now!
All I see is alot of envy. The same envy that goes towards certain alliances ingame because they are better at what they do than you.
T20 did bad things, and as kieron mentioned he has been punished. End of story.
Everyone else who feels they have been violated, lied to or what not do the following:
1 - walk away from computer 2 - walk to a mirror 3 - look at yourselv in mirror 4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times 5 - Still angry? Return to step 3 6 - Feeling better now? Good... go shoot someone in lowsec.
Please, please grow up. What the dev did is bad and CCP has handled the situation as professionaly as possible if you ask me. If you dont want to support CCP I suggest you cancel your accounts as fast as possible. Because whining here about how violated you feel wont get you anywhere.
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
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Karodnotos
Caldari Tides of Silence SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:31:00 -
[1301]
Punish the cheater ___________________ Eve Wiki | dont forget |
RANDWOLF
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:32:00 -
[1302]
You had to go and muck it up for everybody didnt yer. Good one
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:32:00 -
[1303]
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
- Omg bob must be banzored - omg he cheated, banzor him and everyone else we dont like with him - omg I will close my account if you dont banzor -insert victim- now!
All I see is alot of envy. The same envy that goes towards certain alliances ingame because they are better at what they do than you.
T20 did bad things, and as kieron mentioned he has been punished. End of story.
Everyone else who feels they have been violated, lied to or what not do the following:
1 - walk away from computer 2 - walk to a mirror 3 - look at yourselv in mirror 4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times 5 - Still angry? Return to step 3 6 - Feeling better now? Good... go shoot someone in lowsec.
Please, please grow up. What the dev did is bad and CCP has handled the situation as professionaly as possible if you ask me. If you dont want to support CCP I suggest you cancel your accounts as fast as possible. Because whining here about how violated you feel wont get you anywhere.
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Is this possible? someone that actually makes sense? wow. |
August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:35:00 -
[1304]
Originally by: Mikal Drey Item Spawning by Dev (caught by a player) t20 cheating and effectivly getting away with it (caught by a player) Aurora/Event Staff passing information to their player corps ISD bias Polaris Frigs used to scout enemy territories player haxing (and ignored by CCP) HOW DEEP IS THIS POISONED WELL ?
WOE UNTO THEE
seeing a gm on scanner =! HES IN OUR SYSTEM SCANIN OUR FACES!!!
(if a gm really had been scouting, you wouldn't have known)
|
Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:36:00 -
[1305]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: aggro so next time someone account is banned for a minor infrigement of the eula.
I think a law suit against ccp could happen. people pay money for this game and fraud and corruption is rife it seems.
ccp have not banned people for major infridgements of the EULA, so why are paying customers so poorly treated.
ccp better have some very good lawyers
STFU bob alt.. ("Dictionary" > "Chatting" > STFUShut The <censored> Up )
I love how people that read law-for-dummies always manage to make themselves look like complete tards.
Cheaters never prosper! |
KiLLaH KLoWN
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:39:00 -
[1306]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
- Omg bob must be banzored - omg he cheated, banzor him and everyone else we dont like with him - omg I will close my account if you dont banzor -insert victim- now!
All I see is alot of envy. The same envy that goes towards certain alliances ingame because they are better at what they do than you.
T20 did bad things, and as kieron mentioned he has been punished. End of story.
Everyone else who feels they have been violated, lied to or what not do the following:
1 - walk away from computer 2 - walk to a mirror 3 - look at yourselv in mirror 4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times 5 - Still angry? Return to step 3 6 - Feeling better now? Good... go shoot someone in lowsec.
Please, please grow up. What the dev did is bad and CCP has handled the situation as professionaly as possible if you ask me. If you dont want to support CCP I suggest you cancel your accounts as fast as possible. Because whining here about how violated you feel wont get you anywhere.
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Is this possible? someone that actually makes sense? wow.
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
|
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:39:00 -
[1307]
Originally by: Zzleeper Edited by: Zzleeper on 10/02/2007 11:33:24 Edited by: Zzleeper on 10/02/2007 11:33:09
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: aggro so next time someone account is banned for a minor infrigement of the eula.
I think a law suit against ccp could happen. people pay money for this game and fraud and corruption is rife it seems.
ccp have not banned people for major infridgements of the EULA, so why are paying customers so poorly treated.
ccp better have some very good lawyers
I love how people that read law-for-dummies always manage to make themselves look like complete tards.
STFU bob alt.. ("Dictionary" > "Chatting" > STFUShut The <censored> Up )
You're so mature, i bow in your presence. |
Fracking Beach
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:40:00 -
[1308]
Edited by: Fracking Beach on 10/02/2007 11:37:27 I dont feel outraged, but mostly saddened over this incident. I think it is depressing to find out the game I have loved to play so much is tainted with favoritism and cheating from the very creators of the game.
I have one question and one comment on the subject, that I find extremely important:
1) Already mentioned numerously in this thread - a question that remains unanswered: The incident of the T2 bpo's was discovered in June 2006 by CCP. Why were the BPOs NOT removed from game during this discovery? I simply do not understand that.
2) In my personal opinion, putting EULA + legal matters aside, Kugutsumen has done a huge favor to the whole EVE player base by exposing this whole thing. CCP banning his accounts on EULA violations after the exposure can only be interpreted as a vindicative action as you have given "get out of EULA-violation" cards to other players (already mentioned in this thread). Only right thing todo would be to unban K's accounts. |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:41:00 -
[1309]
Originally by: Prestidigitator IMO, he's only confessed to the one thing that could actually be proved. While the history of a BPO is tangible and can be traced back, there's no way for CCP to prove that he misused his 'knowledge of the game' or passed on information.
Say 'The matter is closed' as much as you want, but i'm afraid this still stinks to high heaven imho.[/quote
Cancel your subscribtion then. You look rediculos trying to be the "wise man" here.
Go in peace.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
ceaon
Gallente Porandor
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:41:00 -
[1310]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times
yes is just a game, a game that i pay whit real world money so we can be damn serious about that @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@
|
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Maximus barabus
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:43:00 -
[1311]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
- Omg bob must be banzored - omg he cheated, banzor him and everyone else we dont like with him - omg I will close my account if you dont banzor -insert victim- now!
All I see is alot of envy. The same envy that goes towards certain alliances ingame because they are better at what they do than you.
T20 did bad things, and as kieron mentioned he has been punished. End of story.
Everyone else who feels they have been violated, lied to or what not do the following:
1 - walk away from computer 2 - walk to a mirror 3 - look at yourselv in mirror 4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times 5 - Still angry? Return to step 3 6 - Feeling better now? Good... go shoot someone in lowsec.
Please, please grow up. What the dev did is bad and CCP has handled the situation as professionaly as possible if you ask me. If you dont want to support CCP I suggest you cancel your accounts as fast as possible. Because whining here about how violated you feel wont get you anywhere.
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Is this possible? someone that actually makes sense? wow.
/me tajes deep breath..... OH WAIT it is a game but i pay my rl hard erned cash to run my acounts (plural)
|
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:43:00 -
[1312]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen. |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:43:00 -
[1313]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally [:ugh:
Why does it make me a bob-alt ?
Because I dont jump on the bandwagon?
Your bitterness is understandable but... its just a game. Cancel your subscription if you dont like it.
Go in peace.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
KiLLaH KLoWN
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:45:00 -
[1314]
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Eron Lygera
4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times
yes is just a game, a game that i pay whit real world money so we can be damn serious about that
Not just a game if you pay a monthly subscription for more than 2 years.. It's a hobby and most people get passionate about their hobbies... May be just a game to you but not to most.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:45:00 -
[1315]
Originally by: Maximus barabus
/me tajes deep breath..... OH WAIT it is a game but i pay my rl hard erned cash to run my acounts (plural)[/quote
and?
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:46:00 -
[1316]
developers!
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Kenneys
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:46:00 -
[1317]
Umm this is so very.. lame.
It's one thing when a WoW developer helps an elite guild in a carebear environment.
It's another thing when an Eve developer "gives epic items" in a pvp environment.
To top it off.. any "internal" report(by ANY company) is usually a "downplay" of the actual event.
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KiLLaH KLoWN
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:47:00 -
[1318]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
WHAT??!! PAY MORE MONEY and go to their fanfest? You must be smoking some good stuff!!! HAHAHAHA
|
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:47:00 -
[1319]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: aggro so next time someone account is banned for a minor infrigement of the eula.
I think a law suit against ccp could happen. people pay money for this game and fraud and corruption is rife it seems.
ccp have not banned people for major infridgements of the EULA, so why are paying customers so poorly treated.
ccp better have some very good lawyers
I love how people that read law-for-dummies always manage to make themselves look like complete tards.
Actually to date no EULA has ever withstood the test of any European or United States court.
The fact that they have not followed company policy in the manner by keeping t20 employed and by allowing known items to remain illicitly in game could very well damage their chances in a court of law.
The fact that the EULA has been applied by whim it seems as they ban some for serious violations but don't ban others for the same or similar violations shows that the EULA might not have a chance of surviving court review.
In essence given the facts we know about, it would be very difficult to defend the EULA in court.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Sogarth
Amarr Apache Corp EntroPraetorian Aegis
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:48:00 -
[1320]
kieron. I have read your responses to a little of the concerns raised in this thread (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473490&page=1).
TBH you have not answered anything, you are making excuses for not dealing with the problem, either at the time or now.
Severe and drastic action is required by CCP to regain the player base trust which has been serverly broken by this incident, and now you compound the issue by doing nothing to deal with everyone involved or those who profitted from it.
Read the replies that we as the community are stating within this thread the depth of feeling it has produced, and the resentment at CCP's actions with dealing with this. We are the people who pay to play, and yet again you ignore what we are saying. This aborted attempt at resolving this matter is pathtic. It's about time you grasped the nettle and take some serious action, be completly open and honest about it , and ban everyone involved.
Restore the faith not compound it with excuses.
As a company manager I am appalled by CCP's actions in regard to this, and as for banning people who highlight the issue, but fail to take serious action against those that have clearly broken more rules then I care to count, and given an unfair advantage to others within the game is beyond beleif.
kieron, sorry to say this I as love this game, but you need to grow some B***s and deal with it. CCP's trust and integrity has been shaken to the core, best you deal with it sooner rather than later, as the damage will just get worse, as we the players loss faith in you and CCP.
Fly safe
|
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BGG Liason
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:49:00 -
[1321]
Couple of days ago BoB jumped into EC and locked the system down. an hour or so later an Event started in EC. The BPOs are a sideshow, the money that was made from them a drop in the ocean.
The big thing, and the thing that is almost impossible to prove/track is the passing of priviledged information which garners a profit or an advantage and which can be done by out of game email. Good luck proving or indeed disproving that.
My take on this is that you knew that something was rotten in the state of Denmark for a long time, did nothing in the hope that it would go away, blew as much smoke as you could, did as little as you could get away with when it all blew up and finally, found a scapegoat.
I would remind you of a basic legal tenet "False in one thing; false in all."
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:49:00 -
[1322]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Eron Lygera
4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times
yes is just a game, a game that i pay whit real world money so we can be damn serious about that
Not just a game if you pay a monthly subscription for more than 2 years.. It's a hobby and most people get passionate about their hobbies... May be just a game to you but not to most.
I've payed the sub for long as well. But its still just a game.
Look, you have lost NOTHING to this scandal. Nothing. You have no reason to be burning down houses.
Had he not cheated you would STILL had payed the same sub.
Your passion is one we all share, but if you can become bitter at the degree you show us all here you really need a brake. (and need to get laid too).
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Director Stoned
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:49:00 -
[1323]
CCP should not only terminate t20 but they ought to prosecute him. |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 11:49:00 -
[1324]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
WHAT??!! PAY MORE MONEY and go to their fanfest? You must be smoking some good stuff!!! HAHAHAHA
Thank you for proving my point. |
maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:04:00 -
[1325]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Maximus barabus
/me tajes deep breath..... OH WAIT it is a game but i pay my rl hard erned cash to run my acounts (plural)[/quote
and?
and if i need to exsplain it you proberly wouldnt understand if you had to add the "and" Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
EscapeArtist
Caldari Xenotech Federation and Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:04:00 -
[1326]
I consider this matter closed now.
TBH, it doesn't bother me if the developers do have a leg up in the game. In fact, I like the idea of items being placed in the game via dev chars.
Of course, any item, will be an advantage, but for a limited time, as they get copied, passed around and manufactured they find there way into the wold. ------ I am Legend |
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:05:00 -
[1327]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Thats why I call the "leave if you dont like it" card.
SO you don't like us being mad about this? then why don't you leave? |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:05:00 -
[1328]
Well, this is my OWN OPINION, not anyone elses.
I am not especially angry or (dare I say it) surprised that this has happened.
But I am really just disappointed at what happened. I disagree with people calling for t20 being frogmarched off the CCP site because I am sure they have the common sense to deal with such antics duly.
Now the problem I have is kugs, I am ambivalent as to what happened with this gentleman, if indeed he did actually violate the eula then he should be banned, simple as. I would expect the same with myself, however if I understand it right he used out of game methods to ***** an out of game site to get information pertaining to this situation, thus the Eve-Online eula would have not been affected and thus unjust if he is banned.
Granted it is a bit of naysay etc but if it is the first then I would unban him and leave him to it and ask him to not boast or such, if he does then kthnxbye.
Just my opinion. Asbestos suit, will not hurt...... Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:05:00 -
[1329]
Originally by: Spinnukur I think the question we should all be asking, is 'Why hasn't a BOB Director or CEO, come out to defend themselves, if their so innocent?' Or to atleast publicly say, 'We had no knowledge of T20's action, and deny any wrong doing, on the alliances and all corps within the alliances's behalf...'
Don't give me that BS answer of, 'Do you know what time it is', BOB has players in all time zones all over the world, I more then asure you that theirs always at least 'one' director on. At least some kind of response from BOB HC would be nice.
Because the community has decided that what ever a bob director/ceo/leader/member says they are lying.
Bob cant say a thing on theese forums without it being spinned.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
darth solo
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:06:00 -
[1330]
Edited by: darth solo on 10/02/2007 12:03:32 IM NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS..
iv got guys that have been with our corp for close on 4 years quitting eve over this as they say CCP has let them down... The lack of punishment is a joke and could destroy this great game, why o why do devs get involved in styuff like this?.
If they have cheated at this, what else have they cheated at?, this is only something they have been caught at, what HAVNT they been caught at. the tourny maybe?, the titan take down?, taking over regions?, the list could go on and on... we will never trust these ppl again and rightly so. PATHETIC.
sort yourselfs out CCP or destroy what u have built.
work out a heavier punishment then get back to us.
d solo.
celes apoc new kilboard |
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:06:00 -
[1331]
Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 12:02:51
Originally by: Spinnukur I think the question we should all be asking, is 'Why hasn't a BOB Director or CEO, come out to defend themselves, if their so innocent?' Or to atleast publicly say, 'We had no knowledge of T20's action, and deny any wrong doing, on the alliances and all corps within the alliances's behalf...'
Don't give me that BS answer of, 'Do you know what time it is', BOB has players in all time zones all over the world, I more then asure you that theirs always at least 'one' director on. At least some kind of response from BOB HC would be nice.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=15#425 |
KiLLaH KLoWN
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:06:00 -
[1332]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Spyres
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally [:ugh:
Why does it make me a bob-alt ?
Because I dont jump on the bandwagon?
Your bitterness is understandable but... its just a game. Cancel your subscription if you dont like it.
Go in peace.
See, I think you miss the point. Sure, it's a game. Sure, it's relatively unimportant in most people's lives, compared to RL things, but come on. You MUST see how people *feel* cheated by this.
It doesn't matter that those BPOs were pretty ordinary, relatively speaking. What matters is that people pay money to play this game, and whether or not they are directly involved in actions that are affected by BOB, the fact remains that a dev gave an advantage to someone. That's not on. There is nothing you can say to change that.
You may think it's petty, you may think it's not all that bad, and you'd be right nine times out of ten. However, a lot of people find this offensive, and an insult to their loyalty to the CCP through their continued subscriptions. Sure, you can tell people if they have a problem they can just quit, but that's basically a nonsense response given that people part with cash monthly. It is a cop out.
I think CCP owes every player here an individual apology, at the very least.
Good answer, well written.
Yes its offensive, yes its sucks and yes I was suprised that it had happened the way it did my self. But still... its just a game.
If you are truly angry - I mean really angry - then what are you angry at? - CCP? - T20 for being a tard? - BoB? - Or are you just joining the bandwagon with the usual "we dont like bob"
Because basically this is a bob thread. Or has evolved into one. So many would love to see Sirmolle involved and have him banned. Had T20 been in some minor alliance this would have never been discovered.
Why? Because people dont care. But alot of people hate bob (or think they do, because their friends does... so I better do the same). And thats what I see here.
Thats why I call the "leave if you dont like it" card.
This post got at bit fuzzy, but I hope you get the picture.
I didn't realize this was an anti-BoB thread until you just pointed it out.. Or maybe BoB wants to think it is because they want the eve-universe to revolve around them. Either way, I don't care. I only care about the poor CCP reaction and the cheating. If Tuxford had been the GM I'd be saying the same thing. I don't care what alliance it was.. the corruption itself is a cavity that needs to be drilled.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:07:00 -
[1333]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Thats why I call the "leave if you dont like it" card.
SO you don't like us being mad about this? then why don't you leave?
I dont care how mad you are. I care for the reasons.
Thats why Im still here.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Snowcrow
Minmatar Lyonesse.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:07:00 -
[1334]
kieron: You said, t20 already got his punishment in summer.
But in Summer, your way to deal with the problem was in trying to keep it secret, so I'd like to know what the punishement for t20 was in summer?
If u punished t20 the way, you dealt with the problem then, I think your argument it would be unfair to punish him again doesn't count.
And what if something like this happens again to another dev? would it be fair to release him, while you didn't release t20?
Maybe the community could accept the punishment, if we knew, what it was.
or was it something like: u have to work on christmas eve, and that's it?
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Michi Ken
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:08:00 -
[1335]
1) t20 knowingly violated the conditions of his employment for his own personal gain. The fact that the gain is not monetary is immaterial. 2) The management at CCP covered up the breach for over 6 months until forced to admit it by a player 3) The management at CCP allowed the BPOs to remain in the game 4) The management at CCP allowed t20 to keep his high ranking BoB character 5) The management at CCP banned the player that made this information public
The real issue is that CCP's management has been unwilling to live up to their commitment to CCP's customers to keep Eve a level playing field.
In addition to the termination of t20's employment, the management at CCP that partcipated in the cover-up should be terminated, up to and including Hellmar.
The new management at CCP should: - ensure that no developer characters are allowed into positions of leadership at any player corp - conduct a new, through investigation of any allegations of CCP employee mis-conduct. This investigation should include outside auditors to ensure impartiality and begin to restore the faith of your customers. - require ongoing independent audit of logs - re-instate the player's accounts that brought this to the public's attention
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Dionisius
Gallente SpearMint Rhino GentleMen's Club
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:09:00 -
[1336]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Eron Lygera
4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times
yes is just a game, a game that i pay whit real world money so we can be damn serious about that
Not just a game if you pay a monthly subscription for more than 2 years.. It's a hobby and most people get passionate about their hobbies... May be just a game to you but not to most.
I've payed the sub for long as well. But its still just a game.
Look, you have lost NOTHING to this scandal. Nothing. You have no reason to be burning down houses.
Had he not cheated you would STILL had payed the same sub.
Your passion is one we all share, but if you can become bitter at the degree you show us all here you really need a brake. (and need to get laid too).
You simply don't get it do you?This is a game, yes, but you invest real time of your life to develop your char, to get your ISK, to make yourself or your corp going and actually experimenting diferent things in EVE, new corps, nem modules, new ships, new etc.
Fact is that takes time for every player, wether alone or in a group.
BoB with this previledged aquisitions have gained an unfair advantage on everybody else.
So yes its just a game, and yes while they were cheating we still had to pay but thats simply it, who can garantee that, that same ISK wasn't used to buy/build/fit ships that destroyed other items from other players?... sure its a part of the game but still they didn't earned it, its like stealing others their enjoyment of the game, because its NOT FAIR.
They should loose all the ISK aquired in transactions made by selling items out of those BPO's.
Oh, and CCP did the right thing by admiting this whole thing. _______________________
What we have here is total lack of respect for the law... |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:10:00 -
[1337]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Spyres
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally [:ugh:
Why does it make me a bob-alt ?
Because I dont jump on the bandwagon?
Your bitterness is understandable but... its just a game. Cancel your subscription if you dont like it.
Go in peace.
See, I think you miss the point. Sure, it's a game. Sure, it's relatively unimportant in most people's lives, compared to RL things, but come on. You MUST see how people *feel* cheated by this.
It doesn't matter that those BPOs were pretty ordinary, relatively speaking. What matters is that people pay money to play this game, and whether or not they are directly involved in actions that are affected by BOB, the fact remains that a dev gave an advantage to someone. That's not on. There is nothing you can say to change that.
You may think it's petty, you may think it's not all that bad, and you'd be right nine times out of ten. However, a lot of people find this offensive, and an insult to their loyalty to the CCP through their continued subscriptions. Sure, you can tell people if they have a problem they can just quit, but that's basically a nonsense response given that people part with cash monthly. It is a cop out.
I think CCP owes every player here an individual apology, at the very least.
Good answer, well written.
Yes its offensive, yes its sucks and yes I was suprised that it had happened the way it did my self. But still... its just a game.
If you are truly angry - I mean really angry - then what are you angry at? - CCP? - T20 for being a tard? - BoB? - Or are you just joining the bandwagon with the usual "we dont like bob"
Because basically this is a bob thread. Or has evolved into one. So many would love to see Sirmolle involved and have him banned. Had T20 been in some minor alliance this would have never been discovered.
Why? Because people dont care. But alot of people hate bob (or think they do, because their friends does... so I better do the same). And thats what I see here.
Thats why I call the "leave if you dont like it" card.
This post got at bit fuzzy, but I hope you get the picture.
I didn't realize this was an anti-BoB thread until you just pointed it out.. Or maybe BoB wants to think it is because they want the eve-universe to revolve around them. Either way, I don't care. I only care about the poor CCP reaction and the cheating. If Tuxford had been the GM I'd be saying the same thing. I don't care what alliance it was.. the corruption itself is a cavity that needs to be drilled.
Had this been about T20 and CCP alone I doubt it would have grown to 50 pages.
and it would have been free of people like you who obviously dont like bob.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:10:00 -
[1338]
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
So hang on!.. Anyone employed by CCP can do anything they like while senior staff are on holiday and not lose there job ? WTF kind of company are you lot running!
T20's jaw must hurt after all that sucking. -------------------------------------------
|
Ky Vatta
Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:10:00 -
[1339]
Originally by: Spinnukur I think the question we should all be asking, is 'Why hasn't a BOB Director or CEO, come out to defend themselves, if their so innocent?' Or to atleast publicly say, 'We had no knowledge of T20's action, and deny any wrong doing, on the alliances and all corps within the alliances's behalf...'
Don't give me that BS answer of, 'Do you know what time it is', BOB has players in all time zones all over the world, I more then asure you that theirs always at least 'one' director on. At least some kind of response from BOB HC would be nice.
A very good point there......NO Denials from BOB (or BOB-alts, for that matter)
Now, if you do know any of those people, direct them to this thread....
|
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:12:00 -
[1340]
Originally by: Ky Vatta
Originally by: Spinnukur I think the question we should all be asking, is 'Why hasn't a BOB Director or CEO, come out to defend themselves, if their so innocent?' Or to atleast publicly say, 'We had no knowledge of T20's action, and deny any wrong doing, on the alliances and all corps within the alliances's behalf...'
Don't give me that BS answer of, 'Do you know what time it is', BOB has players in all time zones all over the world, I more then asure you that theirs always at least 'one' director on. At least some kind of response from BOB HC would be nice.
A very good point there......NO Denials from BOB (or BOB-alts, for that matter)
Now, if you do know any of those people, direct them to this thread....
You missed this link above you.. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=15#425 |
|
Spinnukur
Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:13:00 -
[1341]
Ok, so when everyone gets the chance go to this link:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/68591-Jumpgate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep
or you can directly link through slashdot.com. So this whole thing about people defending
BOB is now utter BS. Escapist.com is reporting that most of the Corporation heads in
BOB knew of what was going on the entire time. The player who whistleblowed about the
violations of so called "CCP ETHICAL RULES", was listening in because he was collecting
intel to give or sell to other alliances....READ FOR
YOURSELFS......
|
NeoTech
A.W.M Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:13:00 -
[1342]
IT DOES NOT MATTER what BPO's were spawned. It does not matter if its a Titan BPO or a frigate BPO, its still goddamn cheating!.
And the fact that you ban Kugutsumen from the game because he uncovers the corruption within CCP is just unfair.
He deserves to be unbanned ASAP, and by the look of things it looks like the community demands it. :/
|
Severian Maura
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:14:00 -
[1343]
So do all the people who where killed by sabres and or the ammo bob used get full refunds back becuase they cheated?
Oh and CCP said there is no favortism for bob but every time CCP gets caught cheating its with BOB.
And the only person who gets punished is the person who brought this information to light.
So in genreal if you ever suspect a deveoper of unfairly helping bob keep your mouth shut or CCP will ban you. Which in turns says CCP condones its devolpers cheating.
Have to admit the acctions of CCP are strongly making me consent to quiting this game.
|
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:15:00 -
[1344]
Originally by: Spinnukur Ok, so when everyone gets the chance go to this link:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/68591-Jumpgate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep
or you can directly link through slashdot.com. So this whole thing about people defending
BOB is now utter BS. Escapist.com is reporting that most of the Corporation heads in
BOB knew of what was going on the entire time. The player who whistleblowed about the
violations of so called "CCP ETHICAL RULES", was listening in because he was collecting
intel to give or sell to other alliances....READ FOR
YOURSELFS......
So they interviewed a HACKER with a grudge, and they believed it. And you too.. sad. |
Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:15:00 -
[1345]
To think I used to recommend this game to people because of the great devs
|
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:17:00 -
[1346]
Originally by: Dionisius
BoB with this previledged aquisitions have gained an unfair advantage on everybody else.
So yes its just a game, and yes while they were cheating we still had to pay but thats simply it, who can garantee that, that same ISK wasn't used to buy/build/fit ships that destroyed other items from other players?... sure its a part of the game but still they didn't earned it, its like stealing others their enjoyment of the game, because its NOT FAIR.
They should loose all the ISK aquired in transactions made by selling items out of those BPO's.
Oh, and CCP did the right thing by admiting this whole thing.[/quote
So who are you mad at? T20 for stealing the BPO or CPP for not reacting harder when they first discovered it? Or bob for just... being the alliance that the guy chose to join.
Stop bandwagoning. You suffered no losses.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Kerosene
Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:24:00 -
[1347]
Originally by: Severian Maura So do all the people who where killed by sabres and or the ammo bob used get full refunds back becuase they cheated?
Oh and CCP said there is no favortism for bob but every time CCP gets caught cheating its with BOB.
And the only person who gets punished is the person who brought this information to light.
So in genreal if you ever suspect a deveoper of unfairly helping bob keep your mouth shut or CCP will ban you. Which in turns says CCP condones its devolpers cheating.
Have to admit the acctions of CCP are strongly making me consent to quiting this game.
QFT. __ I really don't need BoB propaganda here any more. Let's embrace yiffy. |
Pham Sirge
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:24:00 -
[1348]
Hi CCP.
You create a system where an in game item(T2 BPCÆs) attain a value which is considered obscene and well beyond the wallet of a large portion of the game population...
Then get surprised when players all get annoyed when they find out a member of staff has been giving said items to friends, depriving other players of them.
SHAME ON YOU.
I donÆt agree the staff member should be fired but this action has given an alliance an advantage that no other alliance has received. You have set a precedence that such behaviour is acceptable and whistle blowers will be expelled from the game. SHAME ON YOU.
Finally because you have so far failed to punish players in Bob, who have actively blurred the lines and not come forward (they share T20s guilt), caused un-associated players in Bob to be tarnished with the same brush.
SHAME ON YOU.
This entire thing is bleeding at your feet, everyone at CCP is tarnished with this muck, you will never reclaim what you had.
CRY FOR YOUR LOST GLORY.
, Pham Sirge
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Inquisitor Lord
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:24:00 -
[1349]
Given 47 pages of comments this question will likely be drowned out, but I might as well ask.
First is this time line correct: 1- t20 starts playing eve as a player (not working for ccp) 2- t20 is hired as a dev for CCP knowing their policy of firing for abuse of power 3- t20 does an abuse of power 4- this is found out 6 months ago, and it takes a hacker to do some social enginering and data mining (**1) to connect the dots. 5- CCP agrees with point 4, but say they stopped short of the written penalty because t20 was (reading between the lines) on vacation at the time.
My problem is (if the above timeline is correct) that t20 was hired knowing what the penalty for abuse was and yet he still did it.
I don't deny that t20 has contributed greatly to the game via his programing skills, but having a set of rules then changing after the fact is very bad form. Either you stick to the plan that has been applied in the past or you lose all credibility.
Again, while t20 has likely done great things for eve, the fact is that I can't trust a game where I don't know if my enemy is getting unfair advantage from the programmers.
This is seriously causing me to re-consider paying for my two accounts.
Inquisitor Lord
PS: What's funny (or sad?) is that I've seen very similar things happen before. This was in a Live Action Role Playing game based on a pen and paper game called "Vampire: The Masquerade"....(yes, it was White Wolf's first RPG)
Anyways, in the vampire LARP(**2), every game I took part in was corrupted by the GM/Story-tellers helping their fiends.
**1 As for 'Kugutsumen', sometimes the sword cuts both ways. While the information you uncovered turned out to be correct, the methods used in this case (and from other "data gathering"/"Spying" trips) were very , very shady to say the least.
**2 Some of the LARP Vamp GM's told me that WW was actually trying at one time assimilate every LARP game story across the nation (i.e: NY's story, Denver's Story, LA's Story) into the offical WW/Vamp storyline (World of Darkness). However I was told that this fell apart to rampant GM abuse (Some regions allowed items that were way over powered and/or gave friends massive benefits).
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:25:00 -
[1350]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Spyres
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally [:ugh:
Why does it make me a bob-alt ?
Because I dont jump on the bandwagon?
Your bitterness is understandable but... its just a game. Cancel your subscription if you dont like it.
Go in peace.
See, I think you miss the point. Sure, it's a game. Sure, it's relatively unimportant in most people's lives, compared to RL things, but come on. You MUST see how people *feel* cheated by this.
It doesn't matter that those BPOs were pretty ordinary, relatively speaking. What matters is that people pay money to play this game, and whether or not they are directly involved in actions that are affected by BOB, the fact remains that a dev gave an advantage to someone. That's not on. There is nothing you can say to change that.
You may think it's petty, you may think it's not all that bad, and you'd be right nine times out of ten. However, a lot of people find this offensive, and an insult to their loyalty to the CCP through their continued subscriptions. Sure, you can tell people if they have a problem they can just quit, but that's basically a nonsense response given that people part with cash monthly. It is a cop out.
I think CCP owes every player here an individual apology, at the very least.
Good answer, well written.
Yes its offensive, yes its sucks and yes I was suprised that it had happened the way it did my self. But still... its just a game.
If you are truly angry - I mean really angry - then what are you angry at? - CCP? - T20 for being a tard? - BoB? - Or are you just joining the bandwagon with the usual "we dont like bob"
Because basically this is a bob thread. Or has evolved into one. So many would love to see Sirmolle involved and have him banned. Had T20 been in some minor alliance this would have never been discovered.
Why? Because people dont care. But alot of people hate bob (or think they do, because their friends does... so I better do the same). And thats what I see here.
Thats why I call the "leave if you dont like it" card.
This post got at bit fuzzy, but I hope you get the picture.
I didn't realize this was an anti-BoB thread until you just pointed it out.. Or maybe BoB wants to think it is because they want the eve-universe to revolve around them. Either way, I don't care. I only care about the poor CCP reaction and the cheating. If Tuxford had been the GM I'd be saying the same thing. I don't care what alliance it was.. the corruption itself is a cavity that needs to be drilled.
Had this been about T20 and CCP alone I doubt it would have grown to 50 pages.
and it would have been free of people like you who obviously dont like bob.
Man, I'd say swallow but yer already full of yerself... It's not that I don't like BoB (Even though you seem obsessive about a fictitious "corp" in a "video game" as stated by another poster) but what I do find irritating is the inevitable "Quit if ya dont like it", "Yera nub", and other misc posts indicative of the single-celled-forum-trolls that occur after the BoB alts hit the thread. I applaud the players and their brilliant displays of intelligence but having some anonymous alt hop on a thread and call me a coward because I won't pay MORE money to run to Iceland to face the devs in regards to them cheating is just retarded.. Especially when that anonymous alt is a known BoB alt and won't even post with their main... Sad indeed. That being said. I still would like CCP to rectify this situation or my other 4 accounts will be cancelled and refunded by VISA.. That's another $3600.00 for a grand total of $7,200
Tell me, what action would you like to see from CCP?
(in your own words please).
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
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Ab Tallen
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:25:00 -
[1351]
Originally by: Sanka Cofie WHY ARE DEV'S ALLOWED IN TO PLAYER CORPS?
Actually, I think that's a good decision for the game. There's really no other way to see how players work with the game mechanics, and much more so in an environment that puts more and more emphasis on large-scale cooperation. Can't experience it without immersion in the player world.
At the same time it's prone to the problems we currently see. Dev characters in the leadership of an alliance are somewhat comparable to undercover agents, and need to be similarly tightly controlled. The less involvement on that level, the better.
Also, there really needs to be a way for players to file petitions directly to the internal affairs division, without going through the usual GM hierarchy. And people in charge of those internal controls should really not play the game, so that they are not influenced or bound by in-game relationships. |
EscapeArtist
Caldari Xenotech Federation and Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:28:00 -
[1352]
Jesus, you fire people that have done something silly in game? FFS that's a little over the top... Its a f'ing game, not passing secret plans to the Russian, reading 'The Comments' dev blog, I'm a little put out a CEO can take such an attitude to these things....
HE BASICLY SAYS: I would have fired him... I was ready to consider it done and over after the first post regarding the apology, but after that Hellmar one... seems to be someone wrote it in anger, it's bull****.
People need to remember EVE's place, and while I am sure everyone at CCP are heavily invested, they have created all this controversy themselves. ------ I am Legend |
Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:32:00 -
[1353]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
Funny how you seem to only come out when the BoB alts come out... *snipped* signature for discussing moderation - Karass Sayfo |
Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:33:00 -
[1354]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
He went public. That isn't fully cooperating.
So what if he did? Do you know what the definition of a whistleblower is?
I guess you are the kind of person that would let Nixon off the hook and send the "Deepthroat" informant to the gas chamber.
Quote: He is a self-admitedly and reasonably well known hacker.
Being a hacker is not against the EULA, because there are many legitimate hackers in the buisness word. We call them, oh what's the word... security consultants. Besides, he didn't 'hack' anything, he posted an SQL dump of their forums which he recieved from an informant. That is not 'hacking' unless you like to ride the BoB bandwagon.
Quote: At least some of the logs he has "provided" are faked.
BoB and their bandwagon called ALL of the logs faked, but now it has been majorly proven that they are true. Not one log has been proven false. This is a lie that you BoB loyalists bought into. Proof or STFU.
Quote: His site infected some people with a trojan.
You are just another simpleton that bought into this lie, back when BoB's PR machine was trying to do damage control. Proof or STFU. Seriously, give me a case example. I've only seen PR whipped up by BoB and CCP, which is such a joke considering the website in question has been slashdotted twice, has been posted on numerous other gaming sites, and nobody else outside of EVE has posted any kind of viral threat.
Quote: How dirty are YOUR hands, Christopher Scott, that you defend a hacker, a criminal?
Yet another mislead, bull**** statement from a bull**** BoB loyalist. I will enjoy watching you burn with the rest of them.
Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
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slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:34:00 -
[1355]
didnt the gm who spawned an ultra raven setup and got found out get sacked?
i dont understand the difference.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:35:00 -
[1356]
Originally by: slothe personally i think everyone thats been killed by bob using the ammo or sabres should petition their losses.
And Mods!!... LoL WTH!! sorry about that... I was sniffing too much paint
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:36:00 -
[1357]
If I petition another player how can I trust that my petition is handled fairly, that the person answering the petition isn't a corp mate of the person I'm petitioning?
If I post on the forums, debating with another player over some hot topic, how can I trust that the forum mods will view all posts with professional objectivity, that whomever is moderating isn't doing so with their own agenda in mind?
If I take part in an event, risking my ship for some rp cause, how can I trust that the event isn't rigged, that it hasn't been leaked to some other group whom have prepped for it?
If I want to try out some new content after an expansion how can I trust that I'm on a level playing field with all the other players, that other players haven't been primed on how to take advantage of that content as soon as it goes live?
What measures are CCP putting in place to answer these questions, to ensure that not only is the game fair, but clearly seen to be fair? - - - PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery |
implanted
Caldari Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:36:00 -
[1358]
Tbh the whole sorry episode is lame.BOB are powerfull enough without being given the I WIN button. Not Happy to see cheats in the game. I always wondered how bob got so big,now i know.
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KiLLaH KLoWN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:36:00 -
[1359]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Tell me, what action would you like to see from CCP?
(in your own words please).
So what are you prompting me to prove that I have formulated and opinion? Sure, here goes, 1) T20: You sorry pimple on the ass of progress you may never play a character in Eve again. You may keep your job, but you may never enter the Eve universe under a recreational capacity again. 2) BPO's be re-seeded in T2 lottery (stated as intended to be done) 3) Either Kug gets his account re-instated or Sir Molle loses his. Don't care about corps or alliances they belong to but equal oppurtunity EULA totally. 4) A universal and OBVIOUS apology on Eve-online.com FRONT PAGE. C'Mon choke down your pride. 5) a game where the DEVs won't cheat!
Anything you disagree with?
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Highlander
Amarr Black Eclipse Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:38:00 -
[1360]
Originally by: slothe personally i think everyone thats been killed by bob using the ammo or sabres should petition their losses.
really... but that is the point I made before, HOW do you or CCP know which sabres and ammo were from the BPO?
I bought 5 sabre and ton of ammo in Empire off market. If I shoot you should you get your ship back because I am Bob and fly a sabre?
If so, then that in effect makes it not fair to me as I did not cheat or used a 'dodgy' sabre.
This is a problem to big to be solved with simple rushed ideas like that which only make as many problems as they cause. In fact can that side of things be done fairly at all?
The main thing is to make sure it can NEVER happen again ans so we all get our faith back in Eve and CCP.
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Severian Maura
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:38:00 -
[1361]
Originally by: slothe personally i think everyone thats been killed by bob using the ammo or sabres should petition their losses.
In order for that to happen CCP is going to think there is something wrong with what happened and punish someone besides the person who brought this to light.
But seeing as this is strike 2 for BOB and CCP working together expect nothing to happen
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Dionisius
Gallente SpearMint Rhino GentleMen's Club
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:39:00 -
[1362]
Edited by: Dionisius on 10/02/2007 12:40:54
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Tell me, what action would you like to see from CCP?
(in your own words please).
*ooopsie, misread the above text. _______________________
What we have here is total lack of respect for the law... |
Beli Mawr
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:39:00 -
[1363]
Edited by: Beli Mawr on 10/02/2007 12:40:32 I think its obvious from the massive reaction here that the majority of the community are unhappy with CCP's solution to the problem.
It appears to the community that a member of the GM team has got off with nothing more than a slap on the wrist after commiting what amounts to theft from the entire community. One cannot just discount this as a few BPO's being spawned and used in an 'illegal' manner. However worthless those BPO's they will have had an impact on other area's of the game, resources will have been used to create items, money will have been paid, items will have been lost or taken in combat involving the items generated. The balance of the game will have been tipped.
In my opinion there needs to be a serious review of the GM system and stronger rules governing them put into place. The fact that this appears to have happend over 6 months ago and the community is only just finding out about it is concerning to say the least. At the time I assume CCP thought releasing this information could have only harmed the reputation of the game. I feel the opposite. An announcement that a cheat had been found amongst the Dev team and that he/she had been punished by being removed from the Dev team would have been applauded by the Eve community and the current situation avoided entirely. T20's actions have brought the companies name into disrepute, he/she should be handed their notice and escorted off the premises. If I break the rules at work I'd expect the same treatment...thats why I dont.
As to the multitude of people calling for BoB to be punished. I cannot for a single minute believe that someone within BoB did not know what was going on here. BoB are far to well organised for someone to have not known. However, I would ask people to stop and think for a minute instead of hitting the "RANT" button. Is punishing an entire alliance a viable option when 99.99% of BoB's pilots had no knowledge of these events until the whole sorry story became public domain? Admittedly BoB have benifited from this but I seriously doubt that BoB's soldiers knew what was going on.
Unfortunatly I also have to agree with the people calling for SirMolle to be banned. On the rare occassions I have come across him in the past 2 years he has always seemed to be a decent chap and I truely believe that he and BoB have made the game of Eve more enjoyable. However, by posting a persons real life details he has over-stepped the mark.
This can still be fixed CCP. You need to look at whats being said by the people who pay your wages and realise that brushing this under the carpet in the usual manner is not the solution. You seriously need to address the current issue and disclose everything that has occured before anything else is "discovered" and then look at how you can stop this happening ever again. Whether this means stopping Dev's from joining 0.0 alliances or putting stricter rules in place to govern them and what they do on a daily basis something must be seen to be done by the paying public or the reputation of the game and company that makes it will suffer even more.
None of us want to see Eve implode so get it sorted. |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:41:00 -
[1364]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
Funny how you seem to only come out when the BoB alts come out...
Funny how you only come out to defend a hacker. Maby i post when i have the time? |
pershphanie
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:43:00 -
[1365]
Originally by: nickky01 so...your telling me...
over a year ago, sitting in 9CG, listening to xirtamvolf rant and rave on teamspeak about how bob uses devs to cheat...
he was right??
/me goes to build a snowman in hell
My thoughts exactly. Unbelievable. I feel so dirty.
I stopped going over to the votf TS because I thought they were being paranoid nut jobs. I'm amazed. I was so sure that all these rumors were BS. Now I'm just wondering to what extent they are true.
I don't believe for a second that they got busted for everything they did. If they got caught for this that means there is probably another 100 things they got away with.
Xirtam & VOTF: I apologize. You guys were right. I was wrong.
WTB - tin foil hat bpo |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:45:00 -
[1366]
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Tell me, what action would you like to see from CCP?
(in your own words please).
So what are you prompting me to prove that I have formulated and opinion? Sure, here goes, 1) T20: You sorry pimple on the ass of progress you may never play a character in Eve again. You may keep your job, but you may never enter the Eve universe under a recreational capacity again. 2) BPO's be re-seeded in T2 lottery (stated as intended to be done) 3) Either Kug gets his account re-instated or Sir Molle loses his. Don't care about corps or alliances they belong to but equal oppurtunity EULA totally. 4) A universal and OBVIOUS apology on Eve-online.com FRONT PAGE. C'Mon choke down your pride. 5) a game where the DEVs won't cheat!
Anything you disagree with?
Yes... most of it basically.
1) you cannot develop a game you cannont play. As in, you cannot make a wine you cannot taste yourself.
2) Here we agree, they should just be reseeded. Fine.
3) So because Molle could have known he was a dev he should be removed? And even if he knew, why do you automatically assume that they conspired to abuse it? (because you would have?) And then you want Kug reinstated although he did things that was wrong as well? (the end does not justify the means)Also, are you completely sure that the information kugusument provided was 110% accurate. That he didnt alter a line here and there, and that he didnt exclude things that would imply that other players innocense - because he clearly didnt like bob.
I could know of a dev character in eve. So could you. Should we be banned?
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:49:00 -
[1367]
Originally by: slothe personally i think everyone thats been killed by bob using the ammo or sabres should petition their losses.
Personally I think you're wrong.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:50:00 -
[1368]
Originally by: Irrilian If I petition another player how can I trust that my petition is handled fairly, that the person answering the petition isn't a corp mate of the person I'm petitioning?
You can't.
Quote: If I post on the forums, debating with another player over some hot topic, how can I trust that the forum mods will view all posts with professional objectivity, that whomever is moderating isn't doing so with their own agenda in mind?
You can't.
Quote: If I take part in an event, risking my ship for some rp cause, how can I trust that the event isn't rigged, that it hasn't been leaked to some other group whom have prepped for it?
You can't.
Quote: If I want to try out some new content after an expansion how can I trust that I'm on a level playing field with all the other players, that other players haven't been primed on how to take advantage of that content as soon as it goes live?
You can't.
Well done CCP. You offered up one dev as a sacrificial scapegoat. All that proves is that particular Dev was being naughty. It doesn't prove that all the other Dev's have been naughty. Conversely, it doesn't disprove that either. All it proves is that a Dev can bend the rules for his own or his alliance's benefit, and get away with it (assuming, of course, that confidential information doesn't end up leaked to the public).
Now, what about all those GM's who have characters in various alliances?
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Lady Ombre
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:51:00 -
[1369]
Hmm too lazy to read 50 pages. Any further informations about the account sharing stuffs?
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:51:00 -
[1370]
I've spent the last 12 hours or so reading. Yes I've even read "his" site. I've had to read most of the forums on Eve-Search because of the heavy moderation by CCP over the last few days.
At first I was like, "Sigh, people are gonna go off, this is going to be lame." But now that I've gotten myself fairly fully informed on the subject, I'm in the camp of, "this is much more serious than I thought."
To BoB leaders: As the now CEO of a pretty ancient corp one that had ties back to EVE-I beginnings and apparently m0o and a less than zero chance that a dev was/maybe still could be in our corp; I would act COMPLETELY differently than you guys have been. You have been adding fuel to the fire with your arrogance and dismissal of the seriousness of this event. If I found out one of my members at anytime had ever been a dev and we had gained serious advantage in ISK, information of tactics or in-game events, or special treatment, I would do whatever I could to right that perception, even if the dev was playing as a "normal" player at the time. If I had access to a rare BPO I would return some, most or all of the profits that we could afford. I would purchase BPOs off of the CPU market and delete them, or hold a random lottery for all players. If a Dev revealed themselves to me, I would ask them to leave the corporation, and I would report them to CCP as having revealed their identity IMMEDIATELY upon finding out, and would refuse any gifts from that player.
To CCP: It is not sufficient to be technically innocent. I'm sorry, it isn't. Devs need to act above reproach. They should NEVER reveal that they are devs, and if they do then they should have those characters deleted immediately. Yes, devs should play their own game to understand it, but they should not play it as ônormalö players. They should never accept positions of power in a big alliance, nor should they retain T2 BPOs. They need to at all times be beyond reproach. They cannot afford even the merest hint of impropriety. This is ethics 101. Take a page from Alan Ginsberg, the long time head of the Fed in the US. Though he could legally invest in stocks and mutual funds or index funds, the most he ever did was put his money into simple bonds or Tbills. He knew that even a smidge of possible corruptness was as bad as actually being corrupt for public perception.
EVE is NOT just a game. It is a persistent virtual world that you have created and are the stewards of. This is where over 100,000 people chose to spend their free time. This is where many people gain friends, have their social time, work hard IRL so that they can enjoy playing EVE. To say it's ôjust a gameö cheapens what we all have created. To those who say, "Quit if you don't like it," you also cheapen your own and everyone else's time and lives over the last 3+ years. To choose to walk away from EVE is not like finishing Gears of War, or GTA or even Oblivion: these games represent maybe 1-2 days/months of play for most players of EVE. For a player to decide that they are leaving this game represents a MAJOR reduction in satisfaction. There are people who have more time in EVE than some professionals play at their sport. Imagine saying to a football player after a devastating leg injury, "Just give up football.ö Give up what has been potentially a major identity for you for many years. ôIt's only a game."
Please CCP, please restore my confidence in this wonderful world you have created. Stop trying to sweep this under the rug, stop trying to protect a few friends or possible lapses in judgment. Be open, allow open discussion, stop trying to shut the door. Respond to every thread, from a gold bar person, even with just a "This is being considered."
You have a MAJOR PR crisis on your hands, please treat it as such. It needs to be all hands on deck this weekend and next week. You guys have to get ahead of this thing and gain the respect and trust of your 100,000 citizens.
Thank you, Mortania CEO Carbide Industries
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Severian Maura
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:52:00 -
[1371]
Bob knew they had a developer working with them again.
And its human nature to inquire about stuff and ask whether or not he could get free stuff. What was caught was only the tip of the iceberg I gurantee it.
And now that CCP has a policy in place that punishes whisleblowers instead of cheaters expect it to happen more.
CCP employees should not be allowed to be engaged in Alliances, they should have a there own little corp if they want to play the game. It takes out the part of improtiety. Players and Coaches are not allowed to bet on there teams failures. This is the same thing the temptation is to great to cheat in competivie games. And eve is competive.
I will give the game one more week to see if CCP actually does soemthing besides punish the whistleblower and reward bob.
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KiLLaH KLoWN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:52:00 -
[1372]
Edited by: KiLLaH KLoWN on 10/02/2007 12:49:28
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Yes... most of it basically.
1) you cannot develop a game you cannont play. As in, you cannot make a wine you cannot taste yourself.
2) Here we agree, they should just be reseeded. Fine.
3) So because Molle could have known he was a dev he should be removed? And even if he knew, why do you automatically assume that they conspired to abuse it? (because you would have?) And then you want Kug reinstated although he did things that was wrong as well? (the end does not justify the means)Also, are you completely sure that the information kugusument provided was 110% accurate. That he didnt alter a line here and there, and that he didnt exclude things that would imply that other players innocense - because he clearly didnt like bob.
I could know of a dev character in eve. So could you. Should we be banned?
1) he alone can play the game on Sisi but not on Tranq. He has exhibited the fact that he is an abuser. If he can't do his job that way, then let them go and hire someone trustworthy and capable. Find him something else to do.. like run for coffee...
2) Glad we agree
3) I never said Sir Molle knew of the Dev. He posted RL info of someone on the forums... Against EULA.. So See ya....
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Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:52:00 -
[1373]
i finaly after 1,5 years have got the skills i wantet, so a "fresh start" is not an option. CCP can damedge controll this. Im more wurried about scammers, loggers, griefers and macro miners than i am of this..
This is bad, but no company out there havent had this, and i still have my trust in ccp. Why should they inform us about internal problems?? no corporation out there does that, even the country you live in dont tell you everything (top secret, closed files secret memos etc)
It comes down to this. Do you trust ccp that they can deal with this or not. If not, then simply quit and let us who have trust in them enjoy the game, this is evolving to some area 51, who killed kennedy, Roswell thing with all the theories that is comming out.....
CCP have said they have delt with it, yes im paying a monthly fee, but that still dont give me the rights to se / know how they exactly deal with this, next thing will be that you all want to know how they are having there lunch brake, and how mucth time they are using on it so if they are late to get back you can retract 0.5$ for next month.....to mutch community big brother, abit to little trust and faith
cheating is bad, unfair advanteges is bad, quit if you dont want to play anymore. I will keep on playing, get podded and have fun.....
ps. By some of the reactions here i actualy think that a publick execution of the entire BOB leadership, t20 and some others is the only way to stop this......geeeez.....
|
Amshar Fahadlan
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:53:00 -
[1374]
Where are big discovered truths? We the customers pay for a game where some devs have possilbe taken a big part or done a constant influence on the ingame Politics. no question devs need to play the game to know what we the customers will need, but not in any leadingroles of alliances or megacorps.
The presented poor Bpos u listet are nothing like a try calm the angry and dissapointet ppl down. Further this crisis lots of storys with unbelivable contents u will hear if you will follow Bob throu their battles(offline POS-towers).Mystical loginproblems for enemys in lots of battles, extra nodes for bob because their assault on ec-p8r ,etc etc..........
And last but not least i need to thank Bob for their impressive perfomance on the last Big Tournaments. maybe the other participating players can get any enemy intel about fittings and enemychar secific skills so the fight will last little longer. diplomatic like i am , i would reeimburse Bob for not winning all events anymore, with some more Complexes in their space.It seems they running little low on uberloot since last 2 or3 weekends.
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:53:00 -
[1375]
Edited by: Ian Novarider on 10/02/2007 12:53:07 I have read Kierons answers here http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...hreadID=473490 and frankly i dont think its good enough. We already lost several players in our corp because they are fed up with the cheating in this game and more will follow i think.
About guilty players not being banned or suspended .. HELLOOOOO ? ... They did not know that these BPOs were illegal and coming from a dev ? Hey guys, did you read the files that Kugutsumen has uncovered ? These players knew EXACTLY where these BPOs were coming from. They also knew EXACTLY how to get more BPOs from the lottery after the dev told them how the BPO lottery worked.
Its not ONLY about the BPOs coming from the dev. Its ALSO about all the many other BPOs (aka money printing machines) obtained through information released by the dev to RKK high council.
There is even one guy that threatens to LEAVE the council because he is not being told this information. And another (Molle) that teases him with this lack of knowledge.
And about the integrity of T20 as a CCP employee .... in MY corporation in real life i had to sign several pages of non-disclosure rules. If I give internal information out to someone else outside the corp i will be fired. No questions asked, no second chance. This is NOT a trivial matter. Depending on the information leaked i could even be prosecuted and i would have to pay a ruinous fine.
CCP ... you have to do better than that if you dont want to lose players and EVEN MORE reputation than you have already lost.
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
|
Ariso
Prime Orbital Systems
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:54:00 -
[1376]
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
Seeing as though we cant comment in Kierons thread i want to know why its unfair to punish T20 again? Because it appears all that happened was he had to leave RKK? Thats not fair punishment in comparison to banning peoples accounts, when T20 wouldnt lose anything really. The tougher internal controls should be tough, even retrospectively.
So next summer when the devs go on holiday will things be dealt with softly again if something like this happens again?
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:55:00 -
[1377]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus He's a Dev and not bound by the EULA.. End of argument..
As far as the 'trust' issue I know that if I was a Dev you could be damned sure I'd spawn whatever I needed in some discreet fashion instead of grinding for it..
Uh, as far as I know everyone using the client is subject to the EULA, don't think there is a "skip EULA, I'm a Dev" option.
And as for your comment that you would spawn whatever you needed if you were a Dev, I guess that speaks for itself.
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Nole Garyer
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:58:00 -
[1378]
Originally by: Mortania
those who say, "Quit if you don't like it," you also cheapen your own and everyone else's time
Then people should seriously stop using it as a "threat".
Your backseat driving makes you look rediculos. Hot air and chestbeating wont win you any T2 bpo's.
Get lost idiot.
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:58:00 -
[1379]
this isnt a seriouse post by me this is just funny(supoosed to be but bov alts will flame me for it ^^) i was working my way towards the good old fashioned perma tanked faction fit cnr, but im gona spend my time aplying for a job at ccp then ill be able to magic a cnr bpo faction kit bpos into the game and ill have lots of cvrs instead of the one Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Gradinger
Todmacher
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:59:00 -
[1380]
tbh im amazed and saddened that this happened or that you had to admit it CCP - although not totally surprised.
CCP, you have betrayed your players, your customers, sometimes comrades.
Well, as stated, CCP will continue to play this game among us - and this is TOTALLY FINE - a desirable advantage to develop this game.
And to everybody who wishes otherwise and cries for dev ban over TQ - how do you think that would work? Apart from the lacking playing experience at CCP - this couldnt even be policed in any way. How you want to stop somebody from playing a mmo? if needed he can use a friends credit card and a proxy. and the other thing is, devs are making this gaming - they can manipulate it if they want and they got insider-knowledge of mechanics, events etc..
So how can we, regular players, be sure CCP aint cheating? hmm.. noway. there is now way to make sure no information leaves the CCP-HQ or something alike.
So what is left? TRUST - itŠs all about trust. all we can do is trust you CCP, and you have admittedly abused this trust, at least once.
I beg you CCP - dont abuse us again. I beg you CCP - dont disappoint us again. Please, CCP, dont cheat on us - again.
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Sixtyniner
The Movement
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:01:00 -
[1381]
Originally by: Gradinger tbh im amazed and saddened that this happened or that you had to admit it CCP - although not totally surprised.
CCP, you have betrayed your players, your customers, sometimes comrades.
Well, as stated, CCP will continue to play this game among us - and this is TOTALLY FINE - a desirable advantage to develop this game.
And to everybody who wishes otherwise and cries for dev ban over TQ - how do you think that would work? Apart from the lacking playing experience at CCP - this couldnt even be policed in any way. How you want to stop somebody from playing a mmo? if needed he can use a friends credit card and a proxy. and the other thing is, devs are making this gaming - they can manipulate it if they want and they got insider-knowledge of mechanics, events etc..
So how can we, regular players, be sure CCP aint cheating? hmm.. noway. there is now way to make sure no information leaves the CCP-HQ or something alike.
So what is left? TRUST - itŠs all about trust. all we can do is trust you CCP, and you have admittedly abused this trust, at least once.
I beg you CCP - dont abuse us again. I beg you CCP - dont disappoint us again. Please, CCP, dont cheat on us - again.
What he said. Trust is all we got, and since CCP abused it once itŠs gonna be twice as hard to convince us that nothing bad i sgoing on.
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:02:00 -
[1382]
Edited by: Mortania on 10/02/2007 12:59:20
Originally by: Nole Garyer
Originally by: Mortania
those who say, "Quit if you don't like it," you also cheapen your own and everyone else's time
Then people should seriously stop using it as a "threat".
Your backseat driving makes you look rediculos. Hot air and chestbeating wont win you any T2 bpo's.
Get lost idiot.
Thanks, we have over 20 of them in the corp already. I never said I was threatening to leave. I said saying, "quit if you don't like it," cheapens your own investement in this game.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:05:00 -
[1383]
Originally by: Sixtyniner
What he said. Trust is all we got, and since CCP abused it once itŠs gonna be twice as hard to convince us that nothing bad i sgoing on.
So what do you suggest we do in the meantime? How will this alter you daily gaming?
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Yoran Gerel
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:08:00 -
[1384]
Originally by: Mortania Edited by: Mortania on 10/02/2007 12:59:20
Originally by: Nole Garyer
Originally by: Mortania
those who say, "Quit if you don't like it," you also cheapen your own and everyone else's time
Then people should seriously stop using it as a "threat".
Your backseat driving makes you look rediculos. Hot air and chestbeating wont win you any T2 bpo's.
Get lost idiot.
Thanks, we have over 20 of them in the corp already. I never said I was threatening to leave. I said saying, "quit if you don't like it," cheapens your own investement in this game.
I agree with you there. But to be honest, I think most people here wont be satisfied until they see thier wallet blink with a "were sorry here's a billion isk" from ccp. So many think they have had a loss, when all they suffered were a 2 second "what the ****" moment.
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Mill Spec
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:08:00 -
[1385]
A few thoughts on human nature and power.
Several times over the last 3 years we have been embroiled in accusations of and grudging (my opinion) admittance to improper in game use of privileges achieved via employment at CCP. Because of this the community at a whole has had it's trust abused on a reoccurring basis. Trust is not an inexhaustible well, people are leaving, and although the most recent incident may not be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back as things stand such a straw will drop.
Human nature has at it's heart a belief that what "I" do is right. In support of this belief is one of human kind's greatest talents. That being the talent for self deception. The poorest of the poor can convince him/her self that it's not so bad and in the end believe they had a decent life. The richest of the rich can convince her/his self that it is their right and that they need more.
This leads people who have power in any form towards using that power to better themselves. No not all do so, there are benevolent dictators, but don't bet the rent check on finding such. The statement "Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" or some version of such is familiar to all. While no absolute statement can cover everyone it is a warning to the wise.
In every governing system be it government, religion, corporate, sports, club, ect. there are some things that are essential for long term stability. The single most important guarantee of stability is by balancing Power with Accountability. The more Power the more Accountable one must be and in some situations the associated risk will overrule giving such a level of power.
For example: Organizations that have raffles, contests, sweepstakes and any such with prized that are valuable restricts their own and any associated organizations employee's and their families from participating. There is plenty of evidence in the legal system that doing otherwise is a sure fire way to get your employee's to do the wrong thing.
Valuable can mean many things. Things of value: 1. Influence over another's options. 2. Influence over another's choices. 3. Influence over multiple people. 4. The tried and true "Cash". 5. Some people only feel value if people know they have power. 6. Some people value invisible power over others. 7. Some value respect and accolades from others. 8. Some value the score. "I got more money/isk than you do." 9. Some value the impact. "I can take/destroy what you have."
And of course people aren't limited to one. Having more cash, nets you better stuff, used to destroy someone else's stuff, posted to public forums/trophyboards....
Using an exploit that nets you a lot of cash that you use to purchase an expensive BPO that you donate to your corp. You are rewarded with a high position in the corp and accrue accolades from many of the members especially when your contributions help improve the corp's status in it's alliance and so on...
I, and I'm sure many people that read this, could come up with endless scenarios but that isn't the point. THE POINT is that people do abuse their authority and that, with very few exceptions, if you provide authority without oversight then it WILL be abused and the abuse will steadily get worse. This has been documented in almost every venue where one human has authority over another.
I'm not saying people can't be good. Plenty of them are good folks. But don't delude yourselves any competent psychologist can tell you that it's no effort to encourage a group with power over another group to abuse and steadily increase the abuses against the other group. It does however require organization and a steady attention to detail to prevent such from occurring.
Mill Spec
|
Mill Spec
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:09:00 -
[1386]
Taking the above into consideration I personally believe:
1. CCP Employee's with access to the production game must have their activities logged in such a fashion that they can't modify those logs. This provides for the ability to oversee their activities.
2. CCP employee's in game should be obviously tied to CCP in such a fashion that can't be duplicated by customers.
3. In the case where CCP employee's need to be unobserved they should have NO ability to affect gameplay without multiple layers of active oversight.
4. CCP employee's should be banned from participating in the game. The exception might be first level help personnel who don't have the ability to affect other players. Yes I know that people love the game. But they need to make a choice, love to work on it or love to play it and never the two shall meet.
If you work on a game, and even work around people that do so you will accrue information about upcoming changes and directions that will affect the way you chose what skills to train, what things to spend time on practicing. Even without any intent to cheat or get an advantage you will inevitably accrue such and advantage over other players.
5. Internal to CCP's operations there should be some very serious divisions on information flow. For instance a developer for the game should never have any access to financial information of any kind. That includes email address's and any other identifiable information.
6. Perhaps the most important. Bad things happen. It is also human nature to try to minimize, cover-up, and excuse and even rationalize such things. AVOID THAT. When an issue occurs immediately announce someone uninvolved as the spokesperson. Define the issue/accusation. Report same minus any identifiable information. Investigate thoroughly - using people that are good at that and uninvolved as much as possible in anything to do with the issue. Report to the community the results of the investigation and as much as possible what actions were taken. Do your level best to correct the effects of the issue and explain to any innocent parties involved exactly (again minus real names ect.) how and why they are involved.
The above suggestions might be considered draconian by some, but I believe they are reasonable for a corporation such as CCP. In a non profit environment I would have suggested a considerably more openness and transparency in all operations.
Mill Spec
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:12:00 -
[1387]
Edited by: Christopher Scott on 10/02/2007 13:10:29 Three words: Mo0, Evolution, Reikouku.
All three corporations were 'notorious' for exploiting. They had this reputation before they created BoB, and they had this reputation before even joining EVE Online. The history goes very, very deep. All the numerous damagemod stacking exploits that was covered up, the ISK duping, the targeting mod exploit that crashed peoples clients, massive dumping of cans and mines to lag people out, I could go on forever.
Mo0 was the only corporation that, after years of ridiculous exploiting, finally got some form of punishment, although it was rather light in my opinion.
Meanwhile, Reikouku and Evolution just assimilated the rest of Mo0, and kept on going with their blatant cheating. For the newer players who were not around to see these days, to know what went on, well now you know.
This is not the end of blatant cheating within CCP. Not even the tip of the iceberg has been uncovered. If people only knew 'how' easy it was to cheat and trade insider information as a volunteer alone, you would be digusted. There are virtually no checks and balances on volunteer accounts.
But I digress. All the crap about Xirtam and the rest of VOTF being crazy and wearing tinfoil hats, for calling BoB and CCP out for developer misconduct.. well "we told you so."
By the way, you have read kuugutsmen's logs and insider information, but you haven't read ours. Trust me, there is a LOT more dirt on CCP that has yet to be released from other alliances. We save our GM chatlogs, we carefully watch what our enemies admit in private conversations and in local. We have seen and recorded really suspicious activity with fraps and screenshots. We have testimonials from ex-BoB players and ISD members that have seen alot of underhanded stuff going on. We have been doing this for three years, and for good reason.
The next three months are going to be very interesting.
Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
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Veryez
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:19:00 -
[1388]
First off that t20 cheated there is no question and his "punishment" should be the same as any player that cheated. That was in the agreement that ALL of us agreed to. His punishment should be no different.
As far as his continued employment @ CCP. That's really none of anyone's business. Whatever his conditions of employment, it's up to CCP to enforce the rules as they see fit.
However as seen by the number of replies here, the real damage is the reputation of "EVE", a game we are all very passionate about. Our game has been hurt by the thought that people with inside knowledge have used that to get ahead (and help others get ahead). In this case a creation of an "Internal Affairs" division is a very good step in the right direction. If EVE's reputation becomes one of, "the way to get ahead is to join "X" and have the dev's help you", it will die. The community will leave and what was a great game will be lost to us forever. I wish this new "Internal Affairs" division great success.
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Khanid Knight
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:25:00 -
[1389]
To solve this, there is only one solution. A 8 months role-back
With all benefits and dev help that BOB have got, there is no other way! Its not only the BPO's the got, the simply have cheated!
CCP don't like to change this, many corporations and alliance have been misleaded in a "fair" play. What if BOB would not have all thoos info from the devs and GM's, would the have beaten ASCN? (and i'm not a fan of them)
And how comes that with a system crash BOB is always on the winning side?
Its time that CCP explain all of this for ones.
If not, there is simply no reason to play this game any longer
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Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:25:00 -
[1390]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot. |
|
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:25:00 -
[1391]
Originally by: Christopher Scott
By the way, you have read kuugutsmen's logs and insider information, but you haven't read ours. Trust me, there is a LOT more dirt on CCP that has yet to be released from other alliances. We save our GM chatlogs, we carefully watch what our enemies admit in private conversations and in local. We have seen and recorded really suspicious activity with fraps and screenshots. We have testimonials from ex-BoB players and ISD members that have seen alot of underhanded stuff going on. We have been doing this for three years, and for good reason.
The next three months are going to be very interesting.
Question, what do you expect to gain from this? What result are you hoping for?
And why should we wait three month?
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
dokkillo
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:26:00 -
[1392]
Should i petition my loses by fleet bobs with ammo T2 or sabres?
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:27:00 -
[1393]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Fulber
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:27:00 -
[1394]
Originally by: dokkillo Should i petition my loses by fleet bobs with ammo T2 or sabres?
100 ISK says the BoB GM who answers it won't reimburse it.
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Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:28:00 -
[1395]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
You mean the reasons of why we are mad? |
olddone
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:29:00 -
[1396]
My my, sad news indeed. Developer favors the rest of us do not enjoy. And where is my Christmas present? This type of thing is community crushing.
Funny my research agent isn't happy with you. I always thought there wasn't really a lottery. BPO are given out by ccp in the "interests of the game not its unconnected players".
Oh, I hear ccp forgot to mention faction loot gifts as a "token of affection" when their were additions of certain stations in Delve as few patches back. What else do we not know about?
The will to fight is all you need to kill them, and a few friends. |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:32:00 -
[1397]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
Your alt's seem to say you care about more than that.
Or are Eron Lygera Nole Garyer Yoran Gerel
all posting close to each other just a coincidence? Here, alphabetically for each name for ya: aeeglnorry aeeglnorry aeeglnorry
You do seem worked up about it.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:34:00 -
[1398]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
You mean the reasons of why we are mad?
Yes... you posting with your alt suggests that its more than just bitterness at T20.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Adsterine
Rome SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:36:00 -
[1399]
Ok, maybe this has already been answered, but theres 51 pages which i'm just not even gonna look at... My question is that, ok so t20 spawned some BPO, ok whatever and CCP knew about the BPO since last summer? Correct me if im wrong. So if you knew about the BPO since last summer why were they still in circulation, have they now only been removed because it's been uncovered? Would they still be in the corp? From what i've read yes. Like i said correct me if im rong, just seems a tad odd.
|
Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:37:00 -
[1400]
Originally by: EscapeArtist
TBH, it doesn't bother me if the developers do have a leg up in the game. In fact, I like the idea of items being placed in the game via dev chars.
Then you've found the perfect game! Most players will probably have different views, however. -BoB Delenda Est- |
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:37:00 -
[1401]
Originally by: Christopher Scott Edited by: Christopher Scott on 10/02/2007 13:10:29 Three words: Mo0, Evolution, Reikouku.
All three corporations were 'notorious' for exploiting. They had this reputation before they created BoB, and they had this reputation before even joining EVE Online. The history goes very, very deep. All the numerous damagemod stacking exploits that was covered up, the ISK duping, the targeting mod exploit that crashed peoples clients, massive dumping of cans and mines to lag people out, I could go on forever.
Mo0 was the only corporation that, after years of ridiculous exploiting, finally got some form of punishment, although it was rather light in my opinion.
Meanwhile, Reikouku and Evolution just assimilated the rest of Mo0, and kept on going with their blatant cheating. For the newer players who were not around to see these days, to know what went on, well now you know.
This is not the end of blatant cheating within CCP. Not even the tip of the iceberg has been uncovered. If people only knew 'how' easy it was to cheat and trade insider information as a volunteer alone, you would be digusted. There are virtually no checks and balances on volunteer accounts.
But I digress. All the crap about Xirtam and the rest of VOTF being crazy and wearing tinfoil hats, for calling BoB and CCP out for developer misconduct.. well "we told you so."
By the way, you have read kuugutsmen's logs and insider information, but you haven't read ours. Trust me, there is a LOT more dirt on CCP that has yet to be released from other alliances. We save our GM chatlogs, we carefully watch what our enemies admit in private conversations and in local. We have seen and recorded really suspicious activity with fraps and screenshots. We have testimonials from ex-BoB players and ISD members that have seen alot of underhanded stuff going on. We have been doing this for three years, and for good reason.
The next three months are going to be very interesting.
Why wait? Go ahead and present the evidence I'd say. Lets get them to come clean.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Soon Tzu
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:39:00 -
[1402]
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
<bob arse kissing sound>
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Hi there bob alt, how ya doing bob alt?
Go kiss ccp/bob arse in the coverup closet please, the paying customers don't need to see it...
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Unvisibility
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:41:00 -
[1403]
Originally by: Eron Lygera Yes... you posting with your alt suggests that its more than just bitterness at T20.
... says the person posting with 3 alts on the same thread
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Soon Tzu
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:41:00 -
[1404]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
- Omg bob must be banzored - omg he cheated, banzor him and everyone else we dont like with him - omg I will close my account if you dont banzor -insert victim- now!
All I see is alot of envy. The same envy that goes towards certain alliances ingame because they are better at what they do than you.
T20 did bad things, and as kieron mentioned he has been punished. End of story.
Everyone else who feels they have been violated, lied to or what not do the following:
1 - walk away from computer 2 - walk to a mirror 3 - look at yourselv in mirror 4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times 5 - Still angry? Return to step 3 6 - Feeling better now? Good... go shoot someone in lowsec.
Please, please grow up. What the dev did is bad and CCP has handled the situation as professionaly as possible if you ask me. If you dont want to support CCP I suggest you cancel your accounts as fast as possible. Because whining here about how violated you feel wont get you anywhere.
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Is this possible? someone that actually makes sense? wow.
and hi to you too bob alt, i see the bob alts are off their leash and allowed to post some spin doctor crap now.
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Arvo Henderson
3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 13:41:00 -
[1405]
I've been refraining to make any posts in any threads regarding this issue, but I can't refrain myself anymore after reading T20 and Hellmar's blogs.
This is a simple question that I hope kieron will care to answer:
After reading T20 "confession" it seems to me that CCP was aware of the BPOs affair back in summer 2006, while they have been removed from the game now, in February 2007. Could you please tell us what was preventing you from restoring the game balance 6 months ago? Why have you decided to do it now when there's been a huge outcry in the community?
Thank you.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:42:00 -
[1406]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
Your alt's seem to say you care about more than that.
Or are Eron Lygera Nole Garyer Yoran Gerel
all posting close to each other just a coincidence? Here, alphabetically for each name for ya: aeeglnorry aeeglnorry aeeglnorry
You do seem worked up about it.
busted.
I ****** up on the rolldowns and decided to let it stay. But well done figuring it out.
Yes Im worked up about it. But again, not because people are mad. But because of the reasons wich seem to apply bitterness towards other players more than bitterness at T20 who is the real perp.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:45:00 -
[1407]
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Eron Lygera wow 47 pages of:
<bob arse kissing sound>
God, there are so many nubs in here. Grow up.
Hi there bob alt, how ya doing bob alt?
Go kiss ccp/bob arse in the coverup closet please, the paying customers don't need to see it...
Hi there ASCN/D2/IRON/GOON alt, how ya doing alt?
Sorry that you are so bitter at us for kicking your arse ingame. Perhaps you should start doing something about it instead of whining.
Who are you mad at? T20 or bob?
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:45:00 -
[1408]
Originally by: Khanid Knight To solve this, there is only one solution. A 8 months role-back
With all benefits and dev help that BOB have got, there is no other way! Its not only the BPO's the got, the simply have cheated!
CCP don't like to change this, many corporations and alliance have been misleaded in a "fair" play. What if BOB would not have all thoos info from the devs and GM's, would the have beaten ASCN? (and i'm not a fan of them)
And how comes that with a system crash BOB is always on the winning side?
Its time that CCP explain all of this for ones.
If not, there is simply no reason to play this game any longer
An 8 month rollback in a game which revolves around ammount of time played would be suicidal for the game.
imagine the game did get rolled back 8 months... everything gets rolled back skills cash, time invested new players accounted get wiped. That would be shortly followed by everyone demanding an 8 months refund itself an costly task. That would also be shortly followed by layoffs at CCP which would be followed by the game going **** up which would be followed by CCP closing.
A roll back even though it would be the best solution to solve the problems is immpossible.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
Nicholas Barker
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:46:00 -
[1409]
seems to me just like t20 dropped a live grenade, and ccp pushed him on top of it. -------------------------------------
LAUNCH THAT SUCKER YEAH! |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:47:00 -
[1410]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
ok bob alt, why the F would anyone want to goto a ccp fanfest now??
If the customers are crapped on like this, why would they spend a few thousand to go?
I know, I know, you had a hard time breathing, lack of oxygen and all considering where you head is inserted...thats why you posted such a moronic thing huh?
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:47:00 -
[1411]
Originally by: Ariso
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
Seeing as though we cant comment in Kierons thread i want to know why its unfair to punish T20 again? Because it appears all that happened was he had to leave RKK? Thats not fair punishment in comparison to banning peoples accounts, when T20 wouldnt lose anything really. The tougher internal controls should be tough, even retrospectively.
So next summer when the devs go on holiday will things be dealt with softly again if something like this happens again?
How do we know he didn't rename his toon through a petition and rejoin at a later point?
How do we know he didn't go into another corp/alliance and perform the same actions since they kept the previous one secret until it was revealed 3rd party style?
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Hatuk
Flashman Services
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:48:00 -
[1412]
CCP sacrificed 1 of their guys (t20) cos he was already caught in the summer. yea, someone had to be thrown to the dogs :-\
if you people think that was all that i can pity your judgment. CCP threw us a bone and hope everything will be forgot. and this huge war strangely happens now... yea lol... since its been said that devs are in all major alliances (BoD and LV is confirmed) it wouldnt surprise me at all they made a deal about the war to save CCP business. yea RL cash comes 1st ;-)
look at the BPOs t20 gave to BoD. all meaningless BPOs... imagine how people would be ****ed if there would be some vaga\hulk\cloack2 BPOs? so who says its only those BPOs? like kieron said CCP created "internal control" and that is very nice and all... but there is also 1 big BUT: who picked those guys in internal control? it could easily be that you have few guys sitting in there who are also corrupt and then all this blabla has no value at all
1 more thing is that if the guy who is sitting at the top of the food chain has hand dirty, and even if the "internal control" is clean, nothing will be found. i dont mean CEO when i say top of food chain, im talking about highest ranked admin, DB god, the 1 that can delete logs, delete traces... dont tell me there is no such guy cos i know there is. and yes its 1 with the master password\access. was IT manager in mobile phone company with 10 x more subscribers then eve and the billing DB was full of problems. people never receiving bills even for international calls etc... all cos the billing DB admin blocked all investigations and deleted traces, also he was pointing to the low ranked admins in his department, some inocent guys got fired. we couldnt bust him for almsot a year only cos we were looking in the wrong place and asumed he is clean.
also guys, dont forget that this is only 1 corp if BoD that got caught with pants down. im sure other did same sh*t... devkoku is just a top of the iceberg...
fly safe
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:48:00 -
[1413]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
Your alt's seem to say you care about more than that.
Or are Eron Lygera Nole Garyer Yoran Gerel
all posting close to each other just a coincidence? Here, alphabetically for each name for ya: aeeglnorry aeeglnorry aeeglnorry
You do seem worked up about it.
busted.
I ****** up on the rolldowns and decided to let it stay. But well done figuring it out.
Yes Im worked up about it. But again, not because people are mad. But because of the reasons wich seem to apply bitterness towards other players more than bitterness at T20 who is the real perp.
I agree. And while it is t20 exposed problem, it is CCPs problem as a whole for the way they've handled this whole affair. Waiting 8 months to remove the BPOs is either them so lacking in an understanding of ethics that it's practically unconscionable or them actively covering up. Neither is a good result.
As for BoB, as I posted in my original post on page 50, you don't act arrogant and standoffish in this case. That they benefitted, no matter how small over others, means they need to be that much more diligent in their separating themselves from the events. ****ooing it is not what people who understand the gravity of the ethical violations should be doing.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:50:00 -
[1414]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Eron Lygera
4 - say "Its just a game" out loud 10 times
yes is just a game, a game that i pay whit real world money so we can be damn serious about that
Not just a game if you pay a monthly subscription for more than 2 years.. It's a hobby and most people get passionate about their hobbies... May be just a game to you but not to most.
I've payed the sub for long as well. But its still just a game.
Look, you have lost NOTHING to this scandal. Nothing. You have no reason to be burning down houses.
Had he not cheated you would STILL had payed the same sub.
Your passion is one we all share, but if you can become bitter at the degree you show us all here you really need a brake. (and need to get laid too).
ahhh ccp/bob arse suckage 4tw?
are you hoping to be rewarded with some t2 bpo's now?
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:51:00 -
[1415]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
WHAT??!! PAY MORE MONEY and go to their fanfest? You must be smoking some good stuff!!! HAHAHAHA
Thank you for proving my point.
your point being, you're an idiot, sucking up?
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:53:00 -
[1416]
Edited by: Mortania on 10/02/2007 13:49:40
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
WHAT??!! PAY MORE MONEY and go to their fanfest? You must be smoking some good stuff!!! HAHAHAHA
Thank you for proving my point.
your point being, you're an idiot, sucking up?
Starting to feel like you are a BoB alt flaming this thread up to get it closed.
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ChironV
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:53:00 -
[1417]
After reading the last 40 messages I did a (gasp) reality check.
NOOOOO. Not RL.
My family is healthy, My wife is happy, my kids are doing ok. Im healthy. (could lose 20lbs) My parents are having fun in retirement. My dog likes me. My job is interesting and helps keep my family fed and keep a roof over thier heads. One of my hobbies is playing EVE...
I'm disapointed with the Developers. Not as much trust as there use to be. I've been playing for 3 years. Not going to quit any time soon, NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF, because I like most of the peeps here.
Always liked the game because it was a level playing field where adults could play and carve their own playstyle. Now I know it was never "really" a level playing field.
BUT. The game is still fun. So CCP? You see where you rank in RL? Keep the game fun, don't mess with the trust we place in you.
Thats it. We would be better served playing the game so off I go.
See you in space. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:54:00 -
[1418]
I am really getting tired of the "they were worthless bpos anyway" argument, it's like saying "BoB was so powerful that this minor advantage was mostly meaningless". That logic applies fine to "oh, they would have just figured that event/challenge/poorly worded relasenotes out in time, I just sped up the process". Or even "oh, they're sure to win this war anyhow, but doing this will just make it more fun, dramatic, and less busy work".
"It wasn't cheating much" is a poor justification.
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Eron Lygera
Gallente Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:54:00 -
[1419]
Originally by: Mortania
As for BoB, as I posted in my original post on page 50, you don't act arrogant and standoffish in this case. That they benefitted, no matter how small over others, means they need to be that much more diligent in their separating themselves from the events. ****ooing it is not what people who understand the gravity of the ethical violations should be doing.
Ofcourse they benifitted, I guess thats why T20 did it in the first place. But did the bob-leaders know that they were building on a stolen BPO? And should they be punished even if it cant be proven that they did?
We cant jugde people on speculation alone. And yet people want a spanish inquisition to roll over this particular alliance. But if we do that, every alliance and corp should have an equal "treatment". For all fairness sake.
Im leaving the house now, but you are welcome to eve-mail me if you want to continue the discussion.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:55:00 -
[1420]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Spinnukur I think the question we should all be asking, is 'Why hasn't a BOB Director or CEO, come out to defend themselves, if their so innocent?' Or to atleast publicly say, 'We had no knowledge of T20's action, and deny any wrong doing, on the alliances and all corps within the alliances's behalf...'
Don't give me that BS answer of, 'Do you know what time it is', BOB has players in all time zones all over the world, I more then asure you that theirs always at least 'one' director on. At least some kind of response from BOB HC would be nice.
Because the community has decided that what ever a bob director/ceo/leader/member says they are lying.
Bob cant say a thing on theese forums without it being a spin.
..ok i fixed that for you Mr bob alt
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Loch Shi'en
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:56:00 -
[1421]
Obviously, for most of us our trust in CCP and their Devs are pretty shaken right now. For those of you who dont think its a big deal, it boils down to cheating by a developer to help the largest alliance in the game. It doesnt matter if they gave Bob a Passive Targeter I bpo, its still cheating and casts doubt on everything else BOB may have. I am not a BOB hater, nor have I ever met a BOB member in game. I am sure, like every alliance, there are some really good and upstanding members in it just as there are probably jerks. However, with that being said something needs to be done. No, we cant roll things back to when they found out. No, we cant dock BOB ISK, Motherships, Tinfoil hats or whatever else we want to do. There ARE some things we can do to make sure this never happens again.
1) No Developers in BOB. Period. Or, if you absolutely have to have one, you pick the most rabid, anti-cheating Internal affairs dev you have. 2) Alternatively, no developers in any of the large, major alliances. 3) Your internal affairs team checks the Dev Logs once every two weeks. 4) I am firmly in the camp that T20 should be fired. I dont care if he was already 'reprimanded' for this. He cheated and has done an incredible amount of harm to the reputation of CCP. 5) If you cant fire him, put a 6 month to a year ban on his characters being in any alliance. Let him rot in empire and low sec for a bit. 6) Post online exactly WHAT are your internal affairs procedures and punishments for things like this. Dont give vague reassurances that people will be reprimanded, dealt with or that you are looking into this.
Now, there will be some that refute these things. I know there have been rumblings that T20 is a good guy who screwed up and shouldnt lose his job. No, sorry. He made the choice to use his Dev powers to cheat and should lose those same dev powers. There are those, possibly within CCP even, who will say that our internal policies and punishments are just that, internal. No. They are not. You are a company who sells a product. A product, I might add which has been tarnished due to poor quality control. If I go to a doctors office that has a reputation of mistakes and mishaps in the past, I have EVERY right to question that doctor or office manager on what their current procedures are to make sure I am not another mistake. You sell a product, a pretty great one to be sure but you need to do some heavy duty reassuring.
In the end it comes down to this. If you have cheated (whether on your partner, at your job, or at anything) the ONLY way to regain someones trust back is to be as transparent as a window. If there is really nothing to hide, then show us that there is nothing to hide. |
Kilostream
Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:56:00 -
[1422]
What assurances do we have that those bpo's listed in the confession dev blog were the only ones dished out by t20?
It doesn't seem consistent with human greed that only crappy bpo's would be given out....
I know if I was in a position to give myself free t2 bpo's I'd be thinking of stuff like HAC, Command ship, 425mm rail, rather than t2 flippin' missiles. I also know if I'd been publicly busted, I'd try to mitigate my crime by making it look as benign as I possibly could - this is just human nature.
This is a turning point for EvE and CCP - your player base's trust in your actions has been shaken to the core: I for one am unconvinced that the deceit is restricted to what has been admitted to in the confession - For example, if dev(s) are biased to BoB and seeded themselves BPO's, how can we know that that same bias meant they intervened to ensure rival alliances did NOT get bpo's that otherwise may have done?
Also the fact that t20 remains employed after what can only be described as gross misconduct makes CCP the corporate entity complicit in his actions as an individual. Think that statement is over the top? Why does someone who drink-drives and kills someone get fired? Because the employer does not want to be seen as condoning those actions.
Believe me, you are now being seen as condoning t20s actions - the attempted mitigation of saying people high up who would take decisions were on holiday, so people (friends?) lower down gave him a less harsh discipline simply don't cut it.
This guy has proven himself greedy, deceitful, corrupt and untrustworthy - as long as he remains in a position of trust, this taint is spread to all of you.
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:57:00 -
[1423]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Mortania
As for BoB, as I posted in my original post on page 50, you don't act arrogant and standoffish in this case. That they benefitted, no matter how small over others, means they need to be that much more diligent in their separating themselves from the events. ****ooing it is not what people who understand the gravity of the ethical violations should be doing.
Ofcourse they benifitted, I guess thats why T20 did it in the first place. But did the bob-leaders know that they were building on a stolen BPO? And should they be punished even if it cant be proven that they did?
We cant jugde people on speculation alone. And yet people want a spanish inquisition to roll over this particular alliance. But if we do that, every alliance and corp should have an equal "treatment". For all fairness sake.
Im leaving the house now, but you are welcome to eve-mail me if you want to continue the discussion.
Acutally we can judge people in game on reputation and speculation as thats the only thing we've got no one can ever offer the community solid proof that BoB did or didn't know personally I don't belive anyone below high management level in BoB knew but the point is even if they didn't the rep is tarnished now and they're never gonna be able to remove the stain. The community wants blood it doesn't look like its gonna get to see t20 fired so they're going for the next target which is BoB. If this had happend to a small alliance people wouldn't have been so bothered but it had to be BoB didn't it. Mud sticks.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:57:00 -
[1424]
I'm probbly repeating what others are saying, but I need to ask. Would volunteers who make a minor slip up and apologise be immediately terminated? Their volunteer character would be destroyed and their participation in ISD would be immediately terminated, correct? What's different about a developer?
In this case you hired the guy under the condition he not abuse his power. He abused his power, violating the terms of his work contract. Ignoring the legal issues that are quite simple for CCP to ignore, as is their choice, T20 didn't immediately apologise. He made a mistake and didn't even admit to it until you found out six months ago. And even then, you took no publicly recorded action (which is fine, privacy is important and it's an internal affair). Someone regrettably aired your dirty laundry and put you in the unenviable position of being forced to publicly admit to what should have been a private matter which I assume was handled six months ago when you found out. Except it wasn't handled, was it? The bpos have been in RKK's posession over the past 6 months. So either the issue was NOT handled when discovered six months ago or it was handled inadequately (RKK keeping illegal blueprints). The privacy isn't the issue, it's the fact that it wasn't even dealt with until T20 was outed publicly. That is a double-standard, and I'm glad Hellmar admitted it in his devblog.
I know CCP expect different behaviour from players, GMs and volunteers than from the core developer team. You're all friends and you aren't about to fire your friends. Nobody can replace T20 because the job he brings to the CCP dev team is unique, right? You can't put out an ad on the website for a new T20. But you know for a fact, Kieron, that certain individuals have circumvented bans in the past on request of devs. The reason people are still annoyed is that now, after someone has exposed the truth and T20 has even admitted it, CCP hasn't changed its policies at all but T20 who breached those policies has gone seemingly unpunished. That's a double-standard by definition.
I'm sure he has been punished but now might be a good time to ask him if he would like to forgo privacy on this matter and publicly admit what that punishment is. And further, promise that future infractions even by Oveur himself will be dealt with according to a publicly revealed policy. There are two extreme (and effective) competing strategies for handling situations like these. One is information management and secrecy, the other is outright honesty and public documentation of all events. If this whole thing has shown anything, it's that the "internet detectives" are pretty damn good at what they do, making information management and surpression impossible. On good faith, I would hope the devs would choose the second option.
While I'm on the topic, there are certain aspects of-- Actually, I just wrote a paragraph here and realised it'd just get deleted. That's pretty depressing... Let's just say that eve-search renders information management impossible.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:00:00 -
[1425]
Originally by: Snowcrow kieron: You said, t20 already got his punishment in summer.
But in Summer, your way to deal with the problem was in trying to keep it secret, so I'd like to know what the punishement for t20 was in summer?
If u punished t20 the way, you dealt with the problem then, I think your argument it would be unfair to punish him again doesn't count.
And what if something like this happens again to another dev? would it be fair to release him, while you didn't release t20?
Maybe the community could accept the punishment, if we knew, what it was.
or was it something like: u have to work on christmas eve, and that's it?
reasons for the summer time "lets ignore it" thing, was vacations, and there was a little thing of keeping good face to show White Wolf...would the merge have happened if WW knew of this sort of thing happening in their soon to be partners creation?
While the actual merge happened later, those things begin with a discovery process....seems to me ccp defrauded White wolf too.
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Sven Bomwollen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:01:00 -
[1426]
u can talk talk talk , if CCP whants to keep it inside regardless of the faith they loose , they will. everyone should be clear that its hard to fire someone out a company and i dont think he can do it a second time. i know most of the community is waiting since it came out , a head will roll. another thing is if the company see it with the same eyes like the whole gaming comunity.
at one point everyone has to choose do i whant to pay play this game do i let one *****-Cheater (better i dont write what i think of him before my account will be deleted) destroy my fun playing this game ?
again my questing still unanswerd .. what is CCP willing to do , to let this not happen again
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:01:00 -
[1427]
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Eron Lygera
I dont care how mad you are.
Are you sure? Because your posts per minute on this thread says you do care a lot.
Read my post again:
I do not care how mad you are. I care about the reasons.
You mean the reasons of why we are mad?
Yes... you posting with your alt suggests that its more than just bitterness at T20.
Hum, interesting... let me analize:
you posting with your alt suggests that its more than just bitterness at T20
Since you categorically say I'm an alt and you are defending T20 so much, I wonder... are you T20's alt? Do you have access to the DB so you know what characters I play more with and because of that you can say I'm an alt? or maybe are you a fellow dev?
And anyway, what's all that "bitterness @ T20" thing? I don't even know who T20 is. A few hours ago I belived ppl were refering to the Tech 2 lottery. Didn't knew there was a player with that name. I was pointed to this thread and I'm expresing my opinion like everybody else.
The reasons why I'm mad are posted in this thread by multiple players many times over. I'm sory if you don't understand why ppl are mad about this after more than 1500 posts. |
Drake Mezcal
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:03:00 -
[1428]
BoBs Official Response
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Soon Tzu
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 14:08:00 -
[1429]
Originally by: Yoran Gerel
Originally by: Mortania Edited by: Mortania on 10/02/2007 12:59:20
Originally by: Nole Garyer
Originally by: Mortania
those who say, "Quit if you don't like it," you also cheapen your own and everyone else's time
Then people should seriously stop using it as a "threat".
Your backseat driving makes you look rediculos. Hot air and chestbeating wont win you any T2 bpo's.
Get lost idiot.
Thanks, we have over 20 of them in the corp already. I never said I was threatening to leave. I said saying, "quit if you don't like it," cheapens your own investement in this game.
I agree with you there. But to be honest, I think most people here wont be satisfied until they see thier wallet blink with a "were sorry here's a billion isk" from ccp. So many think they have had a loss, when all they suffered were a 2 second "what the ****" moment.
well gee, that 2 sec WTF meant weeks if not months of effort to the pilot...gone in 2 secs...due to the enemy having used cheats...and you dont see a problem?
are you dense or a bob alt/wannabe?
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Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:09:00 -
[1430]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal BoBs Official Response
"There are definitely no developers in BoB"
Eve Screen Saver |
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:09:00 -
[1431]
One thing that will be tough for me. I work in real life with a big group of gamers. Everybody is an MMO hardcore gamer @ the office. But I'm the only one playing EVE. I'm always bragging about why EVE is much better. But now they have new ammunition against me/EVE. |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:16:00 -
[1432]
Originally by: Mortania Edited by: Mortania on 10/02/2007 13:49:40
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: KiLLaH KLoWN
I see the BoB alts are filtering in finally
Yes, people that can actually reason must be bob alts. I wonder how many of you will go to the fanfest and have the balls to actually stand up to the developers, instead of pretending to be all that behind your computerscreen.
WHAT??!! PAY MORE MONEY and go to their fanfest? You must be smoking some good stuff!!! HAHAHAHA
Thank you for proving my point.
your point being, you're an idiot, sucking up?
Starting to feel like you are a BoB alt flaming this thread up to get it closed.
hmm, nice spin, but no...I am a peeved paying customer (former customer) of ccp. I was cheated out of the RL cash i payed, due to insider cheats used against me in the game by one of their employees.
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Rail Duke
SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:16:00 -
[1433]
Despicable. ------------- GM in goonspace, hmmm? |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:17:00 -
[1434]
On close reading of Hillmar's devblog, he does address most issues. The remaining issues that I can see are:
1) Will CCP's exact policies and results of audits (even the negative ones) be made public record? 2) Will T20 be punished retroactively or is this policy a henceforth tightening of the net?
On #1, Public recording of noncritical internal events is pretty much required by most companies, it's time CCP started taking it a bit more seriously. It's in CCP's best interests to make this stuff public and so long as the devs themselves (as people, outside the game) are not subject to any danger, public recording of this stuff is a must. It'd be a full time job to publish brief records of what goes on in CCP HQ but the community deserves it and CCP owes it to them to ensure this stuff never happens again. Ever.
On #2, I would expect that T20 will not be punished further. No company applies punishments for policy changes retroactively because policies are in the form of signed contracts between employer and employee and cannot legally be enforced retroactively.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Lorth
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:17:00 -
[1435]
I'm wondering why some of the goons here are spamming for the removal of BOB directors account for account sharing.
Where were you when evidence of your own directors doing the exact same thing showed up a couple mounths ago?
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:19:00 -
[1436]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal BoBs Official Response
classic!!!
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Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:22:00 -
[1437]
"CCPÆs mission is to attract and retain customers by providing top quality online entertainment. CCP does this by establishing and nurturing a trust relationship with customers both in terms of quality of content as well as quality of service.
CCP encourages respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between its employees and customers than is common in online games. By this and through this CCP provides a unique way for improving the quality of its products and creates an inspiring and challenging environment for talent to thrive.
We care more. We work harder." www.ccpgames.com/company/default.asp
I'm at a crossroads. I don't know whether I need to stay and fight to preserve the game I love, or to close my accounts and petition VISA for my money back to drive the point home. How CCP handles the next few days will determine which course of action I take. There is talk of CCP being "Cowboys" and that is the only way that Eve could come about. I don't believe it applies anymore, things have become too large. I will not be satisfied with anything short of full disclosure, punishment, and justifications of CCPs actions. It has gone too far, we need a fresh start now.
I need to stop reading this thread, I keep getting angrier and angrier, but I can't help it.
"To be or not to be, that is the questionù Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing, end them." -Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, Scene I
"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -Dylan Thomas, "Do not go gentle into that good night" --- Dez Erichs, Captain, Agony Unleashed "Veni, Vidi, Caedi" |
Shandarkian
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 14:27:00 -
[1438]
I very very seldom speak on these forums, as they generally do not suit my needs.
But, for the record, T20 should be fired.
He engaged in corruption that would remove any elected official from office, and result in prison time in any real life institution.
He betrayed the public trust.
He stole corporate assets.
He tried to obstruct justice.
He lied to us, BoB, and CCP.
He should be given an hour to gather his belongings, and then removed from his position. I know if I were to steal from my employer, I'd be imprisoned and doing hard time. I expect CCP to protect my interests as a paying customer as well as a member of the EVE community. An example needs to be set. If T20 isn't fired, there will be no way we, as a community, can trust this not to happen again.
A thief is a thief. A liar is a liar. Corrupt is corrupt. Whether you betray your friend or your employer, you're still a traitor.
Remove T20 from any association with EVE please.
Viper Intel Squad - Pure Alliance |
Luna Liandri
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 14:27:00 -
[1439]
not enough.
as i posted in the last thread: information is what this game fuels, the BPO-thingy is just a minor issue IMHO. to say that no inside knowledge has passed is easy but every aspect speaks loud against it.
- we are all humans - t20 gave us a proof how far that can bring you
- information-transfer happens not (only) ingame, but via forums or TS or mail etc...
- only a tiny fraction of actions that will result of said informations will be detectable by CCP, or the community
- even if i do not pass information thru words and writing, my own actions will speak - this goes for all devs left in any alliances
therefore again i urgently demand CCP to rethink their policy of devs in the alliances-game - i DONT want them there, not in AAA and not in any other 0.0-alliance.
should the devs be allowed to play on TQ ? yes, they should. in NPC-corps with no possibility to transfer ANYTHING to other player-chars.
how could they get first-hand experience of 0.0 warfare problems ? they could, for example, create a temporary character with the right skills, contact warfaring entities and participate in fights for a given timeframe, on both sides to get that experience. there are other possibilities too - but long-time membership has to be a big nono.
how could they experience other aspects of 0.0 (stations, POS etc etc) ? testserver is the first answer - f.e. you could easily set up a POS there and try to get all stuff for keep it alive. second answer is a CCP corp for other aspects.
regarding t20's future: i dont care - i care for strict and transparent policies in my game. regarding BoB's involvement: IMHO there are much questions that need to be adressed ASAP, but its no critical issue to me.
again: please CCP reconsider your policies and pull the devs out of the alliance-game !!!
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:29:00 -
[1440]
To those of you that argue that T20's in-game cheats are "only a game" and shouldn't be punishable by firing--do you have any doubt that if a lowly book-keeper at CCP stole $1000 from the cash draw he/she would be fired? I am sure that they would be, and yet T20's actions are just as dishonest and will cost his company much, much more than $1000. CCP has probably spent a large multiple of that just on legal advice at this point.
In any event, CCP is the one really harmed, and I guess it is their decision about how to punish the cheat. But for them to say that he was punished lightly because senior management was on vacation makes CCP look, well, like idiots.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:35:00 -
[1441]
Originally by: Nyphur On #2, I would expect that T20 will not be punished further. No company applies punishments for policy changes retroactively because policies are in the form of signed contracts between employer and employee and cannot legally be enforced retroactively.
But this isn't the situation. The policy when t20's fraud was discovered was termination of employment. This wasn't enforced. We've not really been given a satisfactory explanation of why it wasn't enforced IMO. "Lots of people were on holiday" doesn't really cut it as far as I'm concerned.
t20 should not have kept his job, the situation should have been rectified and made public voluntarily 8 months ago. Instead it's been forced out of CCP by underhanded methods, which however despicable they were, at least had the effect of bringing the truth to light - something it appears CCP would never have done of their own volition.
And now t20 continues to work on this game that we pay for. And BoB keep all the proceeds of their cheated BPOs.
No wonder there's bad feeling, this is the worst handling of a problem I've ever seen.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Katia Tae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:42:00 -
[1442]
After having slept on this and getting past the initial shock of it all that a dev (and I really believe it is devs), were indeed tipping the balance in Eve, I've decided to cancel my accounts to make a statement. I may or may not reactivate them, depending upon where CCP goes from here.
I strongly disagree that dev's should be allowed to play in Eve in a manner that allows them to be anonymous. It should be clear that the character in Eve is indeed a Dev (color coding, dev in name, whatever). They should not be allowed in any player (paying customer) corp or alliance. Other online games do this and have no problem understanding what is really happening in the game so that they can continue to develop and make the game better.
Why can't you CCP?
I really believe it is because, the player base would be shocked even more to find out who some of the other devs play in game. I believe major corps and alliances would be shaken to the core if everything was brought to light.
It's your move CCP and obviously it's your game and not ours.
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Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:44:00 -
[1443]
SO goddamn angry, I'm going to regret this later.... but:
As for BoB and BoB alts:
I see that it is finally sinking into some of the leadership. The first reactions are to distance themselves from t20. Dread'Pirate Jesus is obviously doing his very best to diffuse the issue, to no effect, and only appears comical. I'm certain the majority of the grunts have no idea what's going on in any case.
I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AND BREAK THROUGH THE BOB SMUGNESS:
I avoid smacking in local, but I'm so angry right now, how could I pass up saying "Did you buy that Vaga with dirty money".
"Did you buy that Snake set that you so obviously own with dirty money."
"Oh, you popped me with a Sabre using T2 ammo going 15 km/s, do you really think that's some sort of achievement, cheater?"
Your reputation is at stake. Everything you built for the past 4 years is at stake. Everything!
Before you post in here with an alt, keep in mind that every single player in here that sees a pro-BoB or pro-t20 post in here will think it's a lie. Your credibility is moot. Gone. Done.
Whatever respect you might have is done. You can rule by fear, certainly. But every single student I teach will know how to avoid any tactic that you can put forward, I will make certain of it. It has been now posted that you are alliance griefers. Before it was just Eve, now you're griefers. Think about it.
I want to qualify what I'm saying through my red haze of anger that before, I really was not concerned with BoB. As a force you were to be respected, but like most rich pilots, they were pinatas that pop harder with better loot.
Now you will be known as cheaters. You could have said something to assuage your guilt. You could have let someone know what was going on but you didn't. You are guilty as charged and deserve any reprimands that you recieve.
From this day until the end of Eve, BoB will be known as cheaters, and no forum-whoring, no backpedaling, no spin, will be able to change that.
As a member of BoB, I want you to keep this in mind. Everything you have built may be for nought. Please consider your posts carefully, perhaps something can be salvaged from the wreckage....
--- Dez Erichs, Captain, Agony Unleashed "Veni, Vidi, Caedi" |
carnivoria
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 14:49:00 -
[1444]
Edited by: carnivoria on 10/02/2007 14:49:09 Edited by: carnivoria on 10/02/2007 14:46:41 For the record, the only fair reaction to prevent this happening again is to make sure the punishment is hard enough, avoiding any future temptation. This means not only removing what they gained from it or could have gained; but also hitting where it hurts the ones who actively or passively cheated.
What about removing all 0.0 space assets and disbanding all corps for which there is evidence they were aware, and did not reacted at all ?
And, yes if it turns to BoB's death, and their space to be opened, I would be sad ... but a not strong enough reactions will only lead to reoccurence with other humans - and finally lead to Eve's death.
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Liathus Firebane
Gallente Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:52:00 -
[1445]
Quote: I really believe it is because, the player base would be shocked even more to find out who some of the other devs play in game. I believe major corps and alliances would be shaken to the core if everything was brought to light.
But now is the time to let such information come to light. The players need to believe that they have a balanced playing field. I really don't feel that way at this time. I no longer trust ccp, and it will take a lot to make me trust ccp in the future.
Maybe we all need to set long skills and unsubscribe for a month or two, that would certainly let ccp know how the player base feels!
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Kornbred
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:53:00 -
[1446]
I never post on these forums but after reading these posts and CCPs reponse this is the only thing I could do.
Subscription successfully canceled
Just as I wont keep a securities account with a firm that retains a broker who has been proven to break securities regulation by insider trading and making trades that favour certain clients at the cost of others, I cant retain my account at CCP. You have lost my complete trust.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:54:00 -
[1447]
Originally by: Dez Erichs SO goddamn angry, I'm going to regret this later.... but:
As for BoB and BoB alts:
I see that it is finally sinking into some of the leadership. The first reactions are to distance themselves from t20. Dread'Pirate Jesus is obviously doing his very best to diffuse the issue, to no effect, and only appears comical. I'm certain the majority of the grunts have no idea what's going on in any case.
I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AND BREAK THROUGH THE BOB SMUGNESS:
I avoid smacking in local, but I'm so angry right now, how could I pass up saying "Did you buy that Vaga with dirty money".
"Did you buy that Snake set that you so obviously own with dirty money."
"Oh, you popped me with a Sabre using T2 ammo going 15 km/s, do you really think that's some sort of achievement, cheater?"
Your reputation is at stake. Everything you built for the past 4 years is at stake. Everything!
Before you post in here with an alt, keep in mind that every single player in here that sees a pro-BoB or pro-t20 post in here will think it's a lie. Your credibility is moot. Gone. Done.
Whatever respect you might have is done. You can rule by fear, certainly. But every single student I teach will know how to avoid any tactic that you can put forward, I will make certain of it. It has been now posted that you are alliance griefers. Before it was just Eve, now you're griefers. Think about it.
I want to qualify what I'm saying through my red haze of anger that before, I really was not concerned with BoB. As a force you were to be respected, but like most rich pilots, they were pinatas that pop harder with better loot.
Now you will be known as cheaters. You could have said something to assuage your guilt. You could have let someone know what was going on but you didn't. You are guilty as charged and deserve any reprimands that you recieve.
From this day until the end of Eve, BoB will be known as cheaters, and no forum-whoring, no backpedaling, no spin, will be able to change that.
As a member of BoB, I want you to keep this in mind. Everything you have built may be for nought. Please consider your posts carefully, perhaps something can be salvaged from the wreckage....
You know, posts like yours is why the community that's going mad is viewed as 9 year olds on meth. Why don't you try writing your frustrations in a non-paranoid insane ramblings way? That way, someone might actually take you serious. |
Bembelritter
Gallente PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:55:00 -
[1448]
i call for publishing dev players to get clarity in the community and faith back in the system.
i know ccp would never do it Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:58:00 -
[1449]
Originally by: Sinlare
You know, posts like yours is why the community that's going mad is viewed as 9 year olds on meth. Why don't you try writing your frustrations in a non-paranoid insane ramblings way? That way, someone might actually take you serious.
Nice straw man.
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Starfinder
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:59:00 -
[1450]
Let me see if I have this straight. 1. CCP allows employees to play on live server with inadequates rules, controls and auditing. 2. CCP discovers dev misconduct and takes some "unknown" actions. 3.CCP decides to cover up and hid this misconduct form customers. 4. Whistleblower infiltrates largeest PVP alliance board and uncovers evidence of dev's revealing indenties, recruiting members of this alliance for CCP(as if there aren't enough already in CCP, donations of large numbers of T2 BPO's, account sharing, account ebaying, insider event knowledge and isk macro farming. 5. Whistleblower informs CCP. 6. CCP attempts to silence Whistleblower. 7. Failing that, CCP bans Whistleblower accounts. 8. Eve community starts asking questions. 9. CCP makes misleading statements and attempts cover up. 10. More community outrage. 11. CCP says investigation complete and only seems concerned about dev outing. No mention of dev misconduct. 12. Community gets really angry. CCP responds by locking all related threads. 13. CCP confesses to limited dev misconduct in relation to BPO's only and announces a new auditing section to prevent re-occurence. Dev who committed the misconduct was somehow punished, but still employeed and playing under a different name. Some illicit BPO's are being removed from game.
The analysis:
The major issue is not dev misconduct. The major issues are: 1. CCP has allowed their employees to play the game and failed to have adequate employee oversight. 2. CCP engaged in a cover up of epic scale and deliberatly mislead us(the customer.) 3. CCP took punitave action against a Whistleblower. 4. CCP has failed to enforce the EULA and TOS in a fair and balanced manner.
The conntermeasures needed:
1. The CEO is ultimately responsible and must resign ASAP. 2. The dev in question must be banned for life from the live server for EULA violations. Keep him as an employee if you wish. That is CCP's choice. 3. Stronger rules for CCP employee play on live server need to be announced and implemented. Auditing is not enough. You can not audit personal phone, email and TS/Vent communications. Therefore, you can not prevent employee misconduct relating to insider information. This has to be resolves somehow or employees must be banned from live server. 4. The EULA needs to be enforced fairly. The whistleblower information was correct for the BPO's. There is little reason to doubt the rest was faked. The leaders of a certian large PVP alliance need to be banned for EULA violations. 5. You must continue your investigation(under new leadership) and check the actions of all employees relating to play on the live server.
If you fail to take these actions, this game is finished. It will be an uphill struggle even then.
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MegabitOne
Caldari The Black Ops Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 14:59:00 -
[1451]
Kudos to CCP for sharing this internal information with the EVE-Online community.
I can imagine only very few other games companies where the CEO himself informs their community of their internal workings like CCP did on this occasion. Thanks for sharing this with us, not in the least in the way the communication was made: one from T20 to say a big mea culpa, and a very dry, to the facts one from the CEO. Respect!
Allthough the facts are regrettable, CCP gets a big thumbs up from me for doing the right thing. How the case with T20 is/has been handled is up to CCP's discretion and will.
I sincerely hope that CCP continues to be as open in the future as they have been in the past!
Well done CCP, great communication management. --- I'm not as bad-ass as some of my corp mates, but I'll pwn you anyway!
-= In God we trust, all the others pay cash =- |
Soon Tzu
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 15:04:00 -
[1452]
Originally by: MegabitOne Kudos to CCP for sharing this internal information with the EVE-Online community.
I can imagine only very few other games companies where the CEO himself informs their community of their internal workings like CCP did on this occasion. Thanks for sharing this with us, not in the least in the way the communication was made: one from T20 to say a big mea culpa, and a very dry, to the facts one from the CEO. Respect!
Allthough the facts are regrettable, CCP gets a big thumbs up from me for doing the right thing. How the case with T20 is/has been handled is up to CCP's discretion and will.
I sincerely hope that CCP continues to be as open in the future as they have been in the past!
Well done CCP, great communication management.
either that is poor sarcasm as it sounds like butt kissing or you don't understand that the majority of the playerbase has been F'ed over by CCP and their favortism with the allowed usage of cheats.
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Nir
The Doldrums
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:04:00 -
[1453]
I havn't played the last week orso, and having just read the blogs I can honestly say I'm thinking of hanging up my hat and cancelling my 3 accounts.
What pains me even more than t20's actions is CCPs pitiful attempt to save face, and their subsequent failing to do so. We needed a strong response and what we got is smoke screens and cryptic devblogs.
t20 needs to go, both ingame and out. You cannot keep him on the payroll and at the same time expect this to die down, 2 years from now people will still be talking about it and making wild accusations UNLESS you take action now.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:06:00 -
[1454]
Originally by: Apocryphai
Originally by: Nyphur On #2, I would expect that T20 will not be punished further. No company applies punishments for policy changes retroactively because policies are in the form of signed contracts between employer and employee and cannot legally be enforced retroactively.
But this isn't the situation. The policy when t20's fraud was discovered was termination of employment. This wasn't enforced.
Considering that CCP internal policy is not publicly released, how could you know that? Are the employment contracts of CCP's employees posted publicly somewhere? We can GUESS that his terms of employment included a clause on termination of employment on breach and we can ASSUME that he signed a contract forbidding and defining abuse of power but ultimately none of that is public knowledge.
But it should be.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 15:06:00 -
[1455]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Dez Erichs SO goddamn angry, I'm going to regret this later.... but:
As for BoB and BoB alts:
I see that it is finally sinking into some of the leadership. The first reactions are to distance themselves from t20. Dread'Pirate Jesus is obviously doing his very best to diffuse the issue, to no effect, and only appears comical. I'm certain the majority of the grunts have no idea what's going on in any case.
I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AND BREAK THROUGH THE BOB SMUGNESS:
I avoid smacking in local, but I'm so angry right now, how could I pass up saying "Did you buy that Vaga with dirty money".
"Did you buy that Snake set that you so obviously own with dirty money."
"Oh, you popped me with a Sabre using T2 ammo going 15 km/s, do you really think that's some sort of achievement, cheater?"
Your reputation is at stake. Everything you built for the past 4 years is at stake. Everything!
Before you post in here with an alt, keep in mind that every single player in here that sees a pro-BoB or pro-t20 post in here will think it's a lie. Your credibility is moot. Gone. Done.
Whatever respect you might have is done. You can rule by fear, certainly. But every single student I teach will know how to avoid any tactic that you can put forward, I will make certain of it. It has been now posted that you are alliance griefers. Before it was just Eve, now you're griefers. Think about it.
I want to qualify what I'm saying through my red haze of anger that before, I really was not concerned with BoB. As a force you were to be respected, but like most rich pilots, they were pinatas that pop harder with better loot.
Now you will be known as cheaters. You could have said something to assuage your guilt. You could have let someone know what was going on but you didn't. You are guilty as charged and deserve any reprimands that you recieve.
From this day until the end of Eve, BoB will be known as cheaters, and no forum-whoring, no backpedaling, no spin, will be able to change that.
As a member of BoB, I want you to keep this in mind. Everything you have built may be for nought. Please consider your posts carefully, perhaps something can be salvaged from the wreckage....
You know, posts like yours is why the community that's going mad is viewed as 9 year olds on meth. Why don't you try writing your frustrations in a non-paranoid insane ramblings way? That way, someone might actually take you serious.
I take him seriously. Trust of something any corporation should cherish. Try it, do something that jeopardize the credibility of your corporation, your RL place of work... then see what happens to you. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:09:00 -
[1456]
Originally by: Nim9i5 You can't ban him!!! he can easily change his isp -- right now he could be moving his assests on a diff account/isp, selling on market to himself at one isk. He will have no loss, any one with some computer intelligence can get around a ip ban. Especially a hacker!
Considering he lost his character in June, I'd say no, he couldn't be moving the assets right now.
Now stop trolling and post with your main.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:10:00 -
[1457]
Wow. Just the other day I posted in corp-forum that I felt CCP would deal with this fairly and (reasonably) openly. I guess I had best apologize!
I wil not be quitting - you cannot have my stuff. I will no longer post a link to Eve anywhere. I doubt this will cause CCP loss - that is not the point.
If their country's laws are at all like those here in the U.S.A. - they CANNOT fire him. You simply CANNOT fire someone 6+ months after the offense is made known. I cannot imagine how he kept his job - but he did. Case closed.
What they CAN and SHOULD do - is forbid HIM to play on the main server. There is absolutely no excuse for allowing him to play as before.
I cannot believe they have the audacity to claim this is fairly dealt with by removing BPO's long AFTER they learned of the offense. What of the past 6 months profit?
I find it difficult to believe this is all he stole - and this WAS theft - such a small amount of value. Then again 'succesful' people get caught stealing stupid things all the time - so who knows?
Now that we know CCP covered up an issue such as this, why should we not assume the rest of K's information is false IN ANY WAY?
Based on this, I fell completely justified in calling for the BOB members exposed on his site to be banned from the game. To be clear - sharing accounts is a violation of the EULA. The penalty is account banning. This MUST apply to all - or no one.
K should be banned if he hacked information. While I am glad he did it, it cannot be tolerated.
CCP has, without a chance to defend, penalized many players with bans and isk penalties. To allow this to continue as stated so far would be more than unethical - it would be blatantly unfair.
I am part of a corporation that actually wrote to CCP a few days ago to inquire if a trade a member wished to make with a real-life friend would violate the EULA. It involved SOLELY game-related items. Our CEO had the integrity to say an opportunity must be turned down rather than consider ANY possible improper activity. Most of us think the trade is no big deal, but fairplay and ethics come first. There is zero chance CCP would have known of the issue if we had not inquired. I am proud to be a member of BLUEP, and proud to follow the lead of our CEO. The thought of staying with a Corp that seems to have clearly broken this basic and clear regulation would be unthinkable to me.
I have always quietly defended BOB. I have admired the commitment they have to their Alliance. Based on the last few days that admiration has been replaced by disgust. I sincerely hope the 'Right Thing' is done both by CCP and BOB.
I am not an Alt, I am ...really, really FUGLY! |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:10:00 -
[1458]
and still no updates from ccp
nice try but we won`t fall for it, only morons would believe that that was the only stuff he spawned also gm actions are pritty clear why some alliances get their ships refunded the next day after a loss and the otherside have to wait a month befor hearing "our logs show nothing" as a reply
as this is going to be another "hide & it will go away" issue, i`ll prolly won`t renew my accounts and do the VISA trick for all 4 of my accounts dating back to release and use that money buy a rl
funny that there is a "ccp communication"thread in GD, this is the ultimate example heh
the longer the silence is being kept, the faster my blood boils ontop of my own issue with the marketting department
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Bbllaarrgg
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:12:00 -
[1459]
Im yet another 'rarely posts on the forums' kinda guy, been playing since start of 2004, 3 accounts 2 active atm...
I agree with the majority of the sentiments here, the whole thing stinks quite frankly, of coverup.
WHY was something not done about these bpo's back when it was discovered by ccp something dodgy was going on last summer?
WHY does t20 appear to be keeping his job? He used his rl position in a company to CHEAT IN A GAME!
DO you really think we believe that this is the only cheating he did? A lot of people have said, an i firmly agree, that when someone cheats, they usually do so in many ways, including that of information etc, that can never be traced. And tbh it looks more like you caught him on the bpo front because he admitted it. Yeah sure... admit the small cheating, hide the others.
Sooooooo yeah, will i quit? i dunno, im gonna think about it, and i'll most definatly only have the one paying account by the end of the month.
...and you know, thinking about it, its not the fact that he did it that worrys me, its the blatant cover up by ccp, and the lack of action untill the kugu guy made it public knowledge, THAT is a bitter pill to swallow, and i think has sullied the rep of eve in many peoples eyes. _________________________________________________ This is my sig, aint it great? |
Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:13:00 -
[1460]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Apocryphai
Originally by: Nyphur On #2, I would expect that T20 will not be punished further. No company applies punishments for policy changes retroactively because policies are in the form of signed contracts between employer and employee and cannot legally be enforced retroactively.
But this isn't the situation. The policy when t20's fraud was discovered was termination of employment. This wasn't enforced.
Considering that CCP internal policy is not publicly released, how could you know that? Are the employment contracts of CCP's employees posted publicly somewhere? We can GUESS that his terms of employment included a clause on termination of employment on breach and we can ASSUME that he signed a contract forbidding and defining abuse of power but ultimately none of that is public knowledge.
But it should be.
Well I went to re-read Hellmar's Dev Blog about this and realised I'd slightly misread it. This is the paragraph that led me to make the post you quoted:
Originally by: Hellmar Throughout our history, there have been a handful of cases where our employees or members of our various volunteer and partner programs have taken advantage of the proprietary powers they are granted through access and knowledge. These cases have been investigated, prosecuted and judgment rendered. Usually the punishment has been quite simple: termination of employment.
So, he didn't say it was cast-iron policy, my mistake.
I believe my point still stands though, the usual punishment wasn't applied and, for me, the reason given for that is unsatisfactory.
And yes, I agree, this should be public knowledge.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:13:00 -
[1461]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Dez Erichs SO goddamn angry, I'm going to regret this later.... but:
As for BoB and BoB alts:
I see that it is finally sinking into some of the leadership. The first reactions are to distance themselves from t20. Dread'Pirate Jesus is obviously doing his very best to diffuse the issue, to no effect, and only appears comical. I'm certain the majority of the grunts have no idea what's going on in any case.
I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AND BREAK THROUGH THE BOB SMUGNESS:
I avoid smacking in local, but I'm so angry right now, how could I pass up saying "Did you buy that Vaga with dirty money".
"Did you buy that Snake set that you so obviously own with dirty money."
"Oh, you popped me with a Sabre using T2 ammo going 15 km/s, do you really think that's some sort of achievement, cheater?"
Your reputation is at stake. Everything you built for the past 4 years is at stake. Everything!
Before you post in here with an alt, keep in mind that every single player in here that sees a pro-BoB or pro-t20 post in here will think it's a lie. Your credibility is moot. Gone. Done.
Whatever respect you might have is done. You can rule by fear, certainly. But every single student I teach will know how to avoid any tactic that you can put forward, I will make certain of it. It has been now posted that you are alliance griefers. Before it was just Eve, now you're griefers. Think about it.
I want to qualify what I'm saying through my red haze of anger that before, I really was not concerned with BoB. As a force you were to be respected, but like most rich pilots, they were pinatas that pop harder with better loot.
Now you will be known as cheaters. You could have said something to assuage your guilt. You could have let someone know what was going on but you didn't. You are guilty as charged and deserve any reprimands that you recieve.
From this day until the end of Eve, BoB will be known as cheaters, and no forum-whoring, no backpedaling, no spin, will be able to change that.
As a member of BoB, I want you to keep this in mind. Everything you have built may be for nought. Please consider your posts carefully, perhaps something can be salvaged from the wreckage....
You know, posts like yours is why the community that's going mad is viewed as 9 year olds on meth. Why don't you try writing your frustrations in a non-paranoid insane ramblings way? That way, someone might actually take you serious.
bob alt spin doctors are on the loose...(hi there bob alt <waves>)
now stop spamming to detract from what really has happened, and get back to sucking ccp butt. ( i hear if you suck butt well, they will give you a t2 bpo to use...)
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Scoundrelus's Alt
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:14:00 -
[1462]
I'm amazed that this didn't get figured sooner. I've been playing EVE for close to two years and I've had at least 10 members of BoB brag over ventrilo/TS that they have Devs on their alliance. Everytime I mentioned it to, BoB and their fanboys would always throw the tinfoil hat at me. I'm just amazed that seeing as how open BoB were about this nobody mentioned anything.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:15:00 -
[1463]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui all devs should put there chars into the same corp where they must stay forever without the corp beeing allowed to join an alliance. this corp should be made public.
all your chars could turn off convos and have an insane cspa charge so people dont bother you as you play.
you can go attack alliances etc people wouldnt care aslong as you dont cheat.
maybe we could all wardec you as punishment
Oh yeah, a single corp with all the devs (hey lets not forget ISD and GMs!) in it, and decable.
That corp wouldn't be perma-decked 24/7 by thousands of whiners, oh no. It'd let them experience the game first hand as Hellmar stated they were to do. It would be the reserve of the Privateer's Allaince, everyone would be deccing THEM.
Admit it, you just want to be able to pod devs when they change something and you don't like it. I know I wouldn't mind at times, but that idea is just absurd.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:16:00 -
[1464]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Dez Erichs SO goddamn angry, I'm going to regret this later.... but:
As for BoB and BoB alts:
I see that it is finally sinking into some of the leadership. The first reactions are to distance themselves from t20. Dread'Pirate Jesus is obviously doing his very best to diffuse the issue, to no effect, and only appears comical. I'm certain the majority of the grunts have no idea what's going on in any case.
I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AND BREAK THROUGH THE BOB SMUGNESS:
I avoid smacking in local, but I'm so angry right now, how could I pass up saying "Did you buy that Vaga with dirty money".
"Did you buy that Snake set that you so obviously own with dirty money."
"Oh, you popped me with a Sabre using T2 ammo going 15 km/s, do you really think that's some sort of achievement, cheater?"
Your reputation is at stake. Everything you built for the past 4 years is at stake. Everything!
Before you post in here with an alt, keep in mind that every single player in here that sees a pro-BoB or pro-t20 post in here will think it's a lie. Your credibility is moot. Gone. Done.
Whatever respect you might have is done. You can rule by fear, certainly. But every single student I teach will know how to avoid any tactic that you can put forward, I will make certain of it. It has been now posted that you are alliance griefers. Before it was just Eve, now you're griefers. Think about it.
I want to qualify what I'm saying through my red haze of anger that before, I really was not concerned with BoB. As a force you were to be respected, but like most rich pilots, they were pinatas that pop harder with better loot.
Now you will be known as cheaters. You could have said something to assuage your guilt. You could have let someone know what was going on but you didn't. You are guilty as charged and deserve any reprimands that you recieve.
From this day until the end of Eve, BoB will be known as cheaters, and no forum-whoring, no backpedaling, no spin, will be able to change that.
As a member of BoB, I want you to keep this in mind. Everything you have built may be for nought. Please consider your posts carefully, perhaps something can be salvaged from the wreckage....
You know, posts like yours is why the community that's going mad is viewed as 9 year olds on meth. Why don't you try writing your frustrations in a non-paranoid insane ramblings way? That way, someone might actually take you serious.
I also take him seriously, and agree almost entirely. His post wasn't rambling, nor insane, nor paranoid. He/she echoed my feelings almost exactly and I suspect a lot of other people feel the same way too.
There's bound to be a range of opinions over this issue, how about we try and air them without attacking each other personally, and attempt to discuss this like adults?
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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GuruJ
Gallente Lynx Frontier Inc. Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:17:00 -
[1465]
Funny how we all are up in arms for this one thing.
No one is saying anything about the RIG gift BOB has got from CCP. When the rigs came out guess what the most popular and rarest pieces were...... Melted Cap Consoles...... where is the one place in all the game where they drop.....BOB home space.
BOB has controlled the cap console market captive by limiting total number of wrecks sold. The fewer on the market, the higher the price.
I fought BOB in the ASCN war and let me tell you...... BOB cheated everywhere and it was obvious (day in day out) that BOB had powers that would allow them to log in before downtime is over, crash nodes, somehow control who can log back in after a crash......
IF you think this BPO thing is the only BOB problem..... then your are WRONG. BOB cheats and they get help from CCP... lost of help and everyone knows it.
This game is fun when you don't have the DEVS/ GMS helping one alliance win everything.
CCP=BOB Period end of Story.
GuruJ "Fancy ships, big guns, and expensive things; what about your soul does it Bling Bling?"
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Ironnight
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:19:00 -
[1466]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
And in less than a week or two noone will even care about this event as no territory or any substancial alliance gain or loss came from it.. Its just the 'common people' haveing a good time lording over ONE of the 'royaltys' trangressions.. Meh..
No, from now on, everytime Bob gets a win, this topic will return. And there really isnt much bob can say against it, they got caught. I allmost want to say that it is like winning a medal at the Special Olympic but those guys havent been caught cheating yet
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August Personage
Caldari Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:20:00 -
[1467]
Originally by: GuruJ Funny how we all are up in arms for this one thing.
No one is saying anything about the RIG gift BOB has got from CCP. When the rigs came out guess what the most popular and rarest pieces were...... Melted Cap Consoles...... where is the one place in all the game where they drop.....BOB home space.
BOB has controlled the cap console market captive by limiting total number of wrecks sold. The fewer on the market, the higher the price.
I fought BOB in the ASCN war and let me tell you...... BOB cheated everywhere and it was obvious (day in day out) that BOB had powers that would allow them to log in before downtime is over, crash nodes, somehow control who can log back in after a crash......
IF you think this BPO thing is the only BOB problem..... then your are WRONG. BOB cheats and they get help from CCP... lost of help and everyone knows it.
This game is fun when you don't have the DEVS/ GMS helping one alliance win everything.
CCP=BOB Period end of Story.
GuruJ
mmmmmm, you can almost taste the bitterness
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:20:00 -
[1468]
I am DEEPLY concerned by CCP's reaction to this incident. It's seems the only one punished was someone who brought the rotten smell of this into the open. Had it not been for this individual, this would have stayed secret. So theeffect of this is that in the future, CCP is discouraging anyone from brining such issues to their attention.
EULA violations? Give me an F'in break.
CCP knows there is more to this. They are afraid of how deeply it goes and they DON'T want it to affect their cash cow.
And God FORBID anything be done that could adversely affect BoB. That wouldn;t be "fair!"
Maybe the dev shouldn;t be fired. But CCP, you have a serious trust problem. And banning the whistleblower ain't the way to start fixing it.
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Reiisha
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:20:00 -
[1469]
I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:21:00 -
[1470]
Originally by: Apocryphai
There's bound to be a range of opinions over this issue, how about we try and air them without attacking each other personally, and attempt to discuss this like adults?
If you seriously think that what he wrote is discussing things like adults.... just wow. |
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:23:00 -
[1471]
Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 15:20:45
Originally by: GuruJ Funny how we all are up in arms for this one thing.
No one is saying anything about the RIG gift BOB has got from CCP. When the rigs came out guess what the most popular and rarest pieces were...... Melted Cap Consoles...... where is the one place in all the game where they drop.....BOB home space.
BOB has controlled the cap console market captive by limiting total number of wrecks sold. The fewer on the market, the higher the price.
I fought BOB in the ASCN war and let me tell you...... BOB cheated everywhere and it was obvious (day in day out) that BOB had powers that would allow them to log in before downtime is over, crash nodes, somehow control who can log back in after a crash......
IF you think this BPO thing is the only BOB problem..... then your are WRONG. BOB cheats and they get help from CCP... lost of help and everyone knows it.
This game is fun when you don't have the DEVS/ GMS helping one alliance win everything.
CCP=BOB Period end of Story.
GuruJ
lol, you are crazy. please tell me you're roleplaying. How can you seriously think that 'BOB had powers that would allow them to log in before downtime is over, crash nodes, somehow control who can log back in after a crash......' that's just insane. |
Kilrauko
Caldari BlackTalon Mining Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:24:00 -
[1472]
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: MegabitOne Kudos to CCP for sharing this internal information with the EVE-Online community.
I can imagine only very few other games companies where the CEO himself informs their community of their internal workings like CCP did on this occasion. Thanks for sharing this with us, not in the least in the way the communication was made: one from T20 to say a big mea culpa, and a very dry, to the facts one from the CEO. Respect!
Allthough the facts are regrettable, CCP gets a big thumbs up from me for doing the right thing. How the case with T20 is/has been handled is up to CCP's discretion and will.
I sincerely hope that CCP continues to be as open in the future as they have been in the past!
Well done CCP, great communication management.
either that is poor sarcasm as it sounds like butt kissing or you don't understand that the majority of the playerbase has been F'ed over by CCP and their favortism with the allowed usage of cheats.
Or you dont get it that majority of the playerbase, meaning over 20k accounts are currently playing happily in TQ. I'm mining omber atm, what you're doing? If the word you meant was minority then your statement is correct one and we see that minority, about 1600 posts where most are double or triple posts here, making the numbers go around 700 people. Even if there were 9 more angry customers behind every person who posted here it's still minority.
So I ask again, I'm happily mining omber and enjoying the game I play, what are you doing?
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:25:00 -
[1473]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
only the fools would blame all of bob or any other full alliance most ppl would have had no clue about what is going on, blaming them is igmorance on the otherside, they may have profitted from the situation with every ripple t20 made in this case but they aren`t to be blamed for it
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Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:25:00 -
[1474]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
You need to back away from your pc.
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Gekidoku is recruiting |
Leggy Bare
Caldari Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:26:00 -
[1475]
Originally by: MegabitOne Kudos to CCP for sharing this internal information with the EVE-Online community.
I can imagine only very few other games companies where the CEO himself informs their community of their internal workings like CCP did on this occasion. Thanks for sharing this with us, not in the least in the way the communication was made: one from T20 to say a big mea culpa, and a very dry, to the facts one from the CEO. Respect!
Allthough the facts are regrettable, CCP gets a big thumbs up from me for doing the right thing. How the case with T20 is/has been handled is up to CCP's discretion and will.
I sincerely hope that CCP continues to be as open in the future as they have been in the past!
Well done CCP, great communication management.
This is sarcasm, right? 'Open' does not in any way describe CCP's actions. I really hope this was sarcasm. *sigh* I AM an Alt. I am Freaky Bare's sexy sister. Contrary to Corpmembers opinion, I am NOT Freaky in drag. This forum hates Freaky Bare and does not like to allow him to post here. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:26:00 -
[1476]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: The Libertine I think I just found my new sig.
By all means use it. Its from an old t20 post (Linkage) where he discusses people finding out dev alts and is a rather interesting read in light of this new information.
And you'll notice at the bottom he states his characters went bye-bye. He was speaking from personal experience, and tbh, it wasn't our business to know. I'm starting to doubt that EVE players ever read the EULA or they'd know that punishments on EVE, or any MMO, are not public knowledge.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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zacuis
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:26:00 -
[1477]
Edited by: zacuis on 10/02/2007 15:22:43 i dont like to post on these forums these days as its mainly all smack but as its the only way i can see that i can post my total disgust at learning that these alligations are true i am doing so.
the t2 bpo issue is not a huge one for me it bothers me much more that devs/gm`s could be using there polaris toons to gain intel for there alliences that they would other size not be able to get them having adavanced knowlegde of game changes and such also bothers me no end. i`d love to know if bob or any other allience bought up tonnes of large pos towers before the price rocketed for instance.
i really dont feel that ccp has done enought on this matter i`d like to see a complete about turn on the issue of ccp employees being in 0.0 allience or corps i could accept them being brunts but any level of decision making would be totally unacceptable to me.
i for one dont want t20 to loose his job over this a big smack on the rist will be enought for me. but i am aware that uncovered ccp toons are usually renamed rather than destroyed and i want ccp to state that t20 is now not in bob with any toon. and that all uncovered ccp employees are no longer in bob with any toon.
also the issue of punishing bob must be addressed u can not tell me that the people receving said bpos didnt know they were getting dodgy stuff. receiving stolen goods is a crime in most countrys and must be punishished. i want to see account bans for these people and the isk that could have been generated removed from bob( and i wont accept but we just used the ships and poped them so we didnt get any isk honest gov) thats not acceptable. i want to see the profit they could have made removed.
u may think that waht i say is tainted by the fact my corp is an enemy of bob but i asure u its not if the same had happened in d2 i would be calling for heads too. and ill also bet theres alot of bob guys sitting thinking the same thing for making them look like all they have acheived in the last 4 years was threw cheating.
if i was in bob i think i`d be more angery than i am atm
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Lorth
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:26:00 -
[1478]
Quote: T20 was on teamspeak along with other developers
I was on TS the entire time that occured. You'll never believe it, but nothing at all was said that could have in any way concievably been insider info. It was a friendly chat with the dev's and something I think should have occured more often, with a larger portion of the player base.
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:26:00 -
[1479]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Beyond all the things that have been brought up, I'd like to bring up an issue that came up yesterday.
A GM was spotted in a Polaris Frigate in 28y, warping from moon to moon. This was a day before BoB declared that they would attack us. We have screenshots, and the GM's name.
Frankly, I don't mean to be paranoid or accuse anyone of improper conduct without proof, but perhaps given the circumstances, some tinfoil hattery is justified.
Was there a reason for that GM to be checking out our moons? Is this going to be a regular feature of this war?
Yup, he was looking for cans at the moons so he could remove them, so that BoB could put up Towers. BoB's GM's ftw!
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Nikali
Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:41:00 -
[1480]
To be honest, I highly doubt whatever is said here, will matter. Nor will a large amount of accounts be cancelled, or whatnot. Sure, some people will quit, in a horrible, awful tizzy, and feel proud that they're not playing Eve anymore.
Y'know, as if Eve suddenly wasn't worth playing anymore. Because...someone got free stuff? If you're gonna quit, it's your loss. I will continue to pay CCP, and be the happy little peon that I am, because things like this can't ruin the game for me. Sure, it wasn't right. And sure, it sorta sucks. And sure, it might be some grand government conspiracy to steal my Twinkies or something.
But then again, I don't really care. CCP's CEO himself has posted his two bits, and that's as high as it goes. It don't get any higher than that. It's done. Whine all you like, I'm certain that the doors are shut and the presses have stopped printing, and we were lucky to get the words we did. Because to be quite honest, they didn't have to say one. Single. Word. The only thing CCP has to answer to is your monthly payments, and unless you're somehow scarred to the core because of this, I'm sure you're like me, and will continue to play right up until the devs are gatecamping Jita in titans. Which would do wonders for the traffic problem, let me tell you something.
So, while this is the finest fifty-three pages of steaming monkey-dung throwing meyham I have ever read, in my entire life...I don't think it really matters that much. Outrage, anger, horror, shock, tears, blood, and BoB...quite the roller coaster, but I'm more concerned with the almighty shamed conquerors coming and knocking on my door ingame. Sure, I might get blown up by a Sabre of questionable manufacture...but eh. I'm sure I'll find some way to move on in life, somehow.
Then again, that's apathy for you. Wish I could garner up the energy to care so much, but eh. So many more important things in life to worry about than who spawned what for who.
And by the way, if a guy loses his job over that, I'd be mighty disappointed. I imagine he's kicking himself in the butt over and over, wondering why he ever did it in the first place. If I were in his position, the guilt'd be a hundered times worse than any chewing out by my bosses. The disdain and pure, unmitigated hatred and contempt shown in this thread is rather potent. Don't envy him at all.
~Nik
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Keldon Raven
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:41:00 -
[1481]
I have very very rarely felt compelled to add anything the these forums (I do not speak unless it is something I feel extremely strongly about)Its is without reservation I say this
Confidance in the managment and development of EVE Online has been shaken by this event I have been playing this game for many years and have turned my nose up at other MMORPGs in favour of this game, this has been due to the integrity and dedictaion of the development team
This is turning in to yet another nail in the coffin
I am starting to come to realise that the staff of CCP care very little for the money I pay them every month
Yes this is turning in to a rant but I will list all of my recent observations plainly:-
CCP Staff can cheat and seemingly get away with only minor (if any we still have not been told what action was taken) punishment Players are no longer reciving reperations for extended downtimes (In other words in legal terms we are paying for a service we are not reciving) Players who bring Staff abuse of position to light can look forward to lifetime bans from the game
this is a very minor point I know but it all adds up -
What happened this christmas to the CCP 'thanks for playing silly christmas items' (this simply shows the decline in CCP's attitude towards the paying customer)
Now I am a very loyal player of this game and have no wish to play any other online game, but I can see standards are slipping
As for BoB - Well this incident will overshadow anything you ever do (I really feel sorry for the honest BoB players out there), How many ships have killed by 'tainted' products how many titans/mothership/carriers have been purchased with dirty isk.
The only way you are gonna be able to get past this is to disband and start from scratch (Never gonna happen) so forever more your alliance will be tainted by the specter of this calamity (I call it such for it is a calamity for the honest players)
t20 you screwed up big time - now how are you going to regain our trust?
A sorry day for CCP and a media disaster waiting to happen
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Mitsuko Souma
Gallente The United Federation of Spice
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:42:00 -
[1482]
Oh for the love of whichever God you choose, once again some of you really need to get over yourselves.
Yes what t20 did was bad, hes imperfect - so are a lot of people - big fracking deal. This does not make the whole of BoB pure evil cheating peons of hate that could only get where they are through dev help.
Those saying 'omgz but teh BPOz funded theirz w4rz against teh ASCNz everyonez"ú!' Please. Get a clue.
CCP must be going through a REALLY harsh time atm internally and people making wild, utterly stupid brainless claims simply out of spite and patheticness surely isn't helping.
Get this through your skulls, 6 ill gotten BPOs does not mean 3 years of grind in BoB and whatever time before BoB (for various corps) gets erased in a hail of OMGWTFDEVHAX ****ery.
God damn I hate public forums.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:42:00 -
[1483]
Originally by: Forkumato
Originally by: Maya Rkell
3) Why were goonfleet not banned en-mass for the client-side hack they did.
Simple: it's not a hack. It's a mod. That means the interface for performing the modification is open to all, and intentionally so for that purpose.
What we're talking about, if you've never tried it, is going into the cache directory of eve, finding the player portraits that were downloaded, and adding portraits for all the players not yet downloaded. It's simple, open, and anyone can do it without any programming or even text editing skills needed.
It modified the client to give an advantage, and that violates the EULA.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Royaldo
Old Farts
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:42:00 -
[1484]
i dont for 1 sec think that those were the bpo's. if he was going to cheat, why take the crap ones? cus he wouldnt get caught?
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:43:00 -
[1485]
Originally by: ChironV
Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 15:26:20
Originally by: Mayoz Miner
Well tbh he might be a bit irate but he has a good point when I see a BoB member in a nice ship I think " yea probably gained that through cheating" (directly or indirectly). They have BENEFITED from this in many ways too ....butterfly effect..its just sad really cheaters when all said and done
Then you should think again.
Just like we should think again and look at all your posts then ask you to post with a main and stop hiding in an alt like a frightened little child.
BOB's credibility is done. They were tarnished by an untrustworthy Dev. For good, or for bad, no one will trust them again.
Says deep core mining.. Go away goon alt. |
Calenth
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:43:00 -
[1486]
Edited by: Calenth on 10/02/2007 15:40:24
Originally by: Reiisha How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
edit: never mind, not worth bringing it up |
Bear Care
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:45:00 -
[1487]
CCP has really got to do something about its employees affecting the ingame player experience.
All the other games have strict rules about this, devs dont have to play the game on an active server there to know how it should be...
If CCP wants to be a company they should restrict the DEV's/gms etc if they want to be a group of people who made a game for themselves and try to make a buck out of it on the side by getting others to play aswell then they should state so.
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MinerGod
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:46:00 -
[1488]
I have been reading the forum the past couple of days to see what is been said and done to solve the problems or speculations. Zip so far, or a little hand slapping.
Maybe we should take this problem into the game and start calling everyone that is associated with BOB a "thief" or "cheat", and when they ask why, tell them to read the forum. Some players take pride in their play and do not want to be associated with "thiefs & Cheaters."
Other than that, I am 100% sure that if this matter is not resolved (Dev's in game) I will cancel my 2 accounts.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:46:00 -
[1489]
Originally by: Reiisha There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev
Some people did know, the sources are out there to be read.
Nice try with the "single" spin. Keep emphasising it, and people might start to think you're trying to hide something...
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Psyllus Ktenas
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:49:00 -
[1490]
Subscription cancelled.
I dont pay you 15 bucks a month to get bend over and ****** in my ass.
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Leggy Bare
Caldari Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:49:00 -
[1491]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
Their is a problem with your argument. Those people are guilty of the sins you list if they condone the things you mention. If a Scott condones alcaholism he is part of the problem. If an American defends corrupt politicians he deserves your scorn. If a Muslim supports terrorism he is guilty. If BOB rank and file blindly support their leadership they will be viewed as part of this scandal.
Unless you have a valid defense instead of hate and spite, you should follow your Leaders in making this the least-BOB dominated post in recent memory.
*sigh* I AM an Alt. I am Freaky Bare's sexy sister. Contrary to Corpmembers opinion, I am NOT Freaky in drag. This forum hates Freaky Bare and does not like to allow him to post here. |
Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:50:00 -
[1492]
Originally by: Reiisha
There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev, and he used those BPO's to make ammo which people shot with their guns instead of selling it, to which i might add, bpo's the alliance has multiples of due to the number of ammo bpo's released.
How are we tarnishing CCP's name?
In legal terms its called acomplice after the fact. Or guilt by association. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:53:00 -
[1493]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
Oh, hey, I'm sorry. Let's talk about something else.
How's that cynonet working out for you guys?
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SPIONKOP
Caldari Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:54:00 -
[1494]
It stinks. Can't say much more than that.
Always suspected CCP of having too much influence within the game. No I know they have.
Even though this is a virtual world, seems the same **** load of corruption and iligality that blights most large corporations and governments has made its way to this place.
As for T20, I suspect you are not alone but whilst you have admitted your guilt and asked for forgivness then I was always taught to forgive and for what it means I for one will forgive.
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:55:00 -
[1495]
Originally by: Reiisha There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev, and he used those BPO's to make ammo which people shot with their guns instead of selling it, to which i might add, bpo's the alliance has multiples of due to the number of ammo bpo's released.
How are we tarnishing CCP's name?
Originally by: Sinlare you weren't right, there was a dev that cheated with some bpo's. The rest has been proven to be bull****, so the tinfoil stfu was right.
You two need to start obeying your BoB leadership and refrain from posting on this thread. I'm assuming that the BoB bosses are saying stay away from this.
You're not helping yourselves at all.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Welfare State
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:55:00 -
[1496]
Originally by: Reiisha
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Why I do believe this is irony, old chums.
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Betonela
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:56:00 -
[1497]
kieron we need more info on your locked thread also new question come now CCP are u releasing info about WoD to take attention from this ?
--------- join on New Movement of Market Traders |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:58:00 -
[1498]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And you'll notice at the bottom he states his characters went bye-bye. He was speaking from personal experience, and tbh, it wasn't our business to know. I'm starting to doubt that EVE players ever read the EULA or they'd know that punishments on EVE, or any MMO, are not public knowledge.
You'll also notice that he apparently didn't lose his characters until AUGUST! Why, when this was caught in June did he get to keep his characters until August?
Regarding the EULA, care to cite the specific section where it says that? Also note that t20 himself, speaking in a personal capacity and not as a CCP representative, decided to volunteer the information about his accounts going byebye.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Zachios Primos
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 15:59:00 -
[1499]
after reading the responses from kieron about this matter, **** this game and ccp. I've really been let down and this truly shows your incompetence as leaders and as a company.
The sheer fact that you wont follow your own strict policy to terminate t20 (now or at time of incident) shows this. You tried to sweep it under the carpet, got caught 7 months later and YOU STILL refuse to take action. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.
If the people of this game really wanted to make a stand and show their outrage, they could take this game down easy. WE are the people who make this game what it is, and we're paying your paychecks. So if you know whats good for you, you better start listening and taking the right steps to resolve this situation. And let me tell you, you are heading down a road that will lead to the end of Eve-Online.
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Reiisha
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:00:00 -
[1500]
Originally by: Welfare State
Originally by: Reiisha
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Why I do believe this is irony, old chums.
Thanks for proving my point.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Microsoft Sam
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:01:00 -
[1501]
you know if you rubbed all the whiners and "bobsploit" callers in this thread together their combined IQ might surpass that of a rocks.. Imagine that
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:01:00 -
[1502]
Eve has never been better. So much flame, BoB is getting invaded, Devs are cheating, Everyone is crying. I will never quit. ---
My Movies
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:03:00 -
[1503]
Originally by: Xoria Krint Eve has never been better. So much flame, BoB is getting invaded, Devs are cheating, Everyone is crying. I will never quit.
Yup..Eve has the lot ------------------------------------------- Contact t20 for your alliance BPO needs. Now doing 6 month intrest free contracts!!
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:03:00 -
[1504]
Originally by: Reiisha Thanks for proving my point.
Dude. Cynonet. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:05:00 -
[1505]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam you know if you rubbed all the whiners and "bobsploit" callers in this thread together their combined IQ might surpass that of a rocks.. Imagine that
Wow pretty intelligent responce from the bob-alt.
Go stick your head back in the sand. The folks here have a legitimate gripe about BoB and CCP. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Nikali
Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:05:00 -
[1506]
Originally by: Zachios Primos after reading the responses from kieron about this matter, **** this game and ccp. I've really been let down and this truly shows your incompetence as leaders and as a company.
The sheer fact that you wont follow your own strict policy to terminate t20 (now or at time of incident) shows this. You tried to sweep it under the carpet, got caught 7 months later and YOU STILL refuse to take action. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.
If the people of this game really wanted to make a stand and show their outrage, they could take this game down easy. WE are the people who make this game what it is, and we're paying your paychecks. So if you know whats good for you, you better start listening and taking the right steps to resolve this situation. And let me tell you, you are heading down a road that will lead to the end of Eve-Online.
Mm...I don't think so. I think we'll lose the 23/7 hardcore players and the hypertense forum warriors...and the rest of us will live our happy virtual lives happily ever after, all the better for the E-Darwinism.
If I really wanted to make a stand and show my outrage, I'd play WoW. But WoW blows. Do you want to play Wow? I don't. Remember kiddies...just think of the alteratives. You could be a dupe and play Eve. Or you could be a noob and shout 'lolz want to cell epic wang 20 gold pst' for the rest of your days. That's what you face, if you freak right the hell out instead of looking at things with a bit of perspective.
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toeslammer
Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:05:00 -
[1507]
I don't particularly care for BoB's leaders, although I have friends in Bob. But tbh, the current problem was not started by Bob, but by CCP.
They have allowed devs to become too close to other players, not audited their actions, and when CHEATING was discovered, they did not FIX the problem. CCP owns the game, they can apply the rules however they like. I make my money and I can spend it on whatever game I like. For 2 1/2 years I have spent it on Eve. Not any longer. I regret paying every 6 months now
My feeling is that CCP is applying the rules unevenly. They ban the whistleblower, but not the accounts that revealed his RL info on the forums.
When CCP applies the rules evenly, I will consider renewing my 3 accts. Until then, I refuse to enrich CHEATERS. And the real CHEATERS here are CCP's Devs and Management. The Dev's with ingame cheats, the CCP management by being dishonest with the player base and trying to sweep this under the rug and say "see, it's gone -- all fixed now".
CCP-- your handling of this issue was **** poor to say the least.
Time to look for another hobby.
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:06:00 -
[1508]
WTF! Did kieron up and die on us or something. This is the second time you have avoided obvious questions. So are you guys at the office screaming 'HIDE UNDER THE RUG'!!!
T20 should be fired, or whoever let him keep the BPOs after you found them in the SUMMER should be fired!
Sir Molle should be banned - rl info ftl
Bobs cynonet account sharing crap needs to be discussed. Or maybe you guys will just make that legal now
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Ironnight
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:06:00 -
[1509]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
You need to back away from your pc.
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Not good, I would distance myself from the people that cheated and put it behind me.
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Microsoft Sam
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:06:00 -
[1510]
Edited by: Microsoft Sam on 10/02/2007 16:05:03
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Microsoft Sam you know if you rubbed all the whiners and "bobsploit" callers in this thread together their combined IQ might surpass that of a rocks.. Imagine that
Wow pretty intelligent responce from the bob-alt.
Go stick your head back in the sand. The folks here have a legitimate gripe about BoB and CCP.
heh im far from a bob alt sailor its just because i can READ and understand what keirons posted while others ignore what was said by keiron and take the word of a self confessed hacker and liar.
Oh wait does the fact i can understand complicated words make me a sploiter?
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:09:00 -
[1511]
Originally by: Prydeless WTF! Did kieron up and die on us or something. This is the second time you have avoided obvious questions. So are you guys at the office screaming 'HIDE UNDER THE RUG'!!!
T20 should be fired, or whoever let him keep the BPOs after you found them in the SUMMER should be fired!
Sir Molle should be banned - rl info ftl
Bobs cynonet account sharing crap needs to be discussed. Or maybe you guys will just make that legal now
Chill man. They are probably discussing on what to do. And how to go forward with this, It takes some time. Im just glad they don't rush it.
Fired? Well. I think he should be able to play the game but without a alt. Always fly around with the devtag.
They don't have prof that SirMolle knew anything about this ffs. Even if we "know" he did, he can't get banned for it at the moment. ---
My Movies
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Syop
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:10:00 -
[1512]
Well thanks CCP I so enjoy playing a game where the devleoper attempt to hide there biased towards an alliance twice aparently and then punish the person who brought this to light. Bravo.
I see there studying american style politics in Europe as well.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:11:00 -
[1513]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
Oh, hey, I'm sorry. Let's talk about something else.
How's that cynonet working out for you guys?
if u or me would start account sharing, we`d have a temp ban faster then we could say "pwnd" mass account sharing where dev`s are included is ignored and kept silent
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prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:12:00 -
[1514]
Originally by: Mysticaa In legal terms its called acomplice after the fact. Or guilt by association.
Remind me not to get legal advice from you... -- .sig apathy ftw |
Hinik
Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:13:00 -
[1515]
T20 FOREVER!!!!! wub you man, no matter what
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:15:00 -
[1516]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
heh im far from a bob alt sailor its just because i can READ and understand what keirons posted while others ignore what was said by keiron and take the word of a self confessed hacker and liar.
Oh wait does the fact i can understand complicated words make me a sploiter?
What has Keirons post stated that we seem to have missed in your eyes? CCP has a policy of termination for dev's who cheat. T20 cheated but was not fired. What does that make CCP? Liers. And as their duely appointed spokesperson on this form Keiron has no choice but to spread the lies that CCP want him to spread.
BoB has been accused of cheating, both with its account sharing and the hard facts of ill-gotten BPO's. Regardless of wether it had a large or small impact on the game it is still cheating and anyone associated with BoB will therefore be considered cheaters (guilt by association). Anyone siding with BoB in this matter will be assumed to be a BoB-alt by the mear fact that they are siding with a group a know cheaters. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:16:00 -
[1517]
Originally by: Kerushi if u or me would start account sharing, we`d have a temp ban faster then we could say "pwnd" mass account sharing where dev`s are included is ignored and kept silent
I've yet to see or hear from anyone getting banned for casual account sharing in this game. It happens in every alliance I've seen up close. -- .sig apathy ftw |
Stockarian
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:17:00 -
[1518]
The issue for me isn't about a few, or more, BPO's. My biggest problem with CCP is with their integrity and sense of fair play. A game that requires so much dedication from it's player base shouldn't need to worry about the other side having an unfair advantage. I had been waiting for a decision on this before posting, hoping that decision would at least seem somewhat appropriate. It wasn't.
There is no accountability for the actions of the cheating party. CCP's failure to bring the "incident" to light, and even denying it happened, only lessens their integrity. I don't want anyone to be fired, but there needs to be repercussions for one's actions, especially if the actions are done by an employee of the games creator.
I'm sorry, but to try and sweep the incident under the rug, while knowing what happened the whole, time just makes matters worse in my eyes. The player base deserves better than to be lied to. The lip service and lack of an appropriate penalty makes me see what CCP really care about in the end; A) subscription fees, and, B) winning their own game. Pathetic.
To save time, why don't you avoid the facts and get right to the spin.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:17:00 -
[1519]
Originally by: prsr I've yet to see or hear from anyone getting banned for casual account sharing in this game. It happens in every alliance I've seen up close.
The cynonet is as far from "casual account sharing" as you can possibly get.
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Microsoft Sam
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:18:00 -
[1520]
Originally by: Mysticaa rabble
t20 was already punished about the bpos when it happened. they cant punish him TWICE FOR IT.
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:18:00 -
[1521]
Originally by: prsr
Originally by: Mysticaa In legal terms its called acomplice after the fact. Or guilt by association.
Remind me not to get legal advice from you...
Acomplice after the fact - Failing to provide information to the authorities about known criminal acts, or attempting to hide evidence in said crimes to protect the accused. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:19:00 -
[1522]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
Originally by: Mysticaa rabble
t20 was already punished about the bpos when it happened. they cant punish him TWICE FOR IT.
He was not punished. If he was then he would not still be working for CCP and the BPO's would not have remained in BoB hands until now. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Microsoft Sam
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:21:00 -
[1523]
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
Originally by: Mysticaa rabble
t20 was already punished about the bpos when it happened. they cant punish him TWICE FOR IT.
He was not punished. If he was then he would not still be working for CCP and the BPO's would not have remained in BoB hands until now.
believe it or not that was explained too, read the posts again.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:22:00 -
[1524]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 10/02/2007 16:23:34
Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 11:15:56
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 10/02/2007 11:08:07
Originally by: Comstr I trust CCP can see how serious the playerbase takes this. More serious than CCP does it seems.
What playerbase? Dont you mean forumites? There is like maybe 40 unique posters in this whole thread out of a population of 180,000..
Amen, and it are mostly people that got defeated by bob or have some grudge against them. :)
Don't forget that some of us have 0 impact from BoB, and its bitter rivals, and want to see some sanity brought to this rabid lynch mob.
For so long, people have screamed that BoB gets this, or BoB gets that.
What happens, a dev in BoB is found out. So tell me, if BoB dies, and D2, or LV, or Goonswarm rise to the top, what happens in a year when some criminal like Kugu outs those Devs?
Will it matter if those devs are completely pure, or even if they joined the alliance 2 days earlier? No, it will simply be another dev found in the 'best' alliance, and people will scream bloody murder again. If t20 were a member of ASCN, rather than people screaming that EVE is dead, they'd be screaming and demanding to know why he didn't save such a large alliance of so many players and so much income.
CCP will weather this, and honestly, they will likely take the road other companies take, and silence these things instantly, but I hope not. I hope they stay open with us because this thread, kieron's answer thread, and the two dev blogs, give us 4 more things than you will ever get from Blizzard, SOE, or any other MMO company.
If people are going to quit, then quit. Go play a game where when these things happen, they cover it up so fast that you get nothing from it. Here you have gotten an admission, and as I said when this all started, people will not be happy regardless of what the outcome is. I'm sure there's more to this, and why t20 got the punishment they did, but it's not for us to know. Dealt with the fact that a company is not going to release all information to the public and risk real legal action, and complete destruction of community trust. If CCP were to release such private and sensitive information, would you honestly trust them with your personal information?
And people who are quitting, I'll make you a deal. If you're so outraged at BoB for what has happened, I'll make you a deal. Send all of your ISK to me, and contract all your assets to me. Give me an EVE mail saying where the assets are (I'll confirm via the contracts system), put it in places I can actually dock and get it at(IE don't put them in player outposts that wont let me dock), and I will use it to 'balance the field' for those who are fighting BoB. Sound good?
I suspect my wallet will not change, and I will get no evemails, and almost all of you will continue to play, let's see if I'm right.
I feel bad for the rank and file of BoB, especially RKK though, because I do not believe all of this was known by that many of the members. Perhaps we will see BoB's numbers drop due to people leaving in disgust, who knows. However I cannot take this thread anymore. I've said my piece, and I know most people will skim my posts and never actually read them. Such is life.
People screamed exodus at the 4S situation, and again at the cheating GM incident, those people are still here, you people will still be here. You know that what you've got is legit for your part, I know what I have is legit, if you feel BoB used such unfair things, then how will you feel if/when you beat them? Winning with the odds against you is always better than winning when they are in your favor.
In closing, I would just like to say...
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:22:00 -
[1525]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
Originally by: Mysticaa rabble
t20 was already punished about the bpos when it happened. they cant punish him TWICE FOR IT.
He was not punished. If he was then he would not still be working for CCP and the BPO's would not have remained in BoB hands until now.
believe it or not that was explained too, read the posts again.
and u believe that crap?
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:23:00 -
[1526]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
believe it or not that was explained too, read the posts again.
No it was not explained. They have never explained why the BPO's were not immediatly removed from the game. Only why it would be hard to change things now. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Red Reaver
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:25:00 -
[1527]
Originally by: prsr
Originally by: Kerushi if u or me would start account sharing, we`d have a temp ban faster then we could say "pwnd" mass account sharing where dev`s are included is ignored and kept silent
I've yet to see or hear from anyone getting banned for casual account sharing in this game. It happens in every alliance I've seen up close.
Doesn't matter if everyone does it or not. If it's a rule, enforce it, if it's not, take it out.
If the rule isn't being enforced but is still there, the people it hurts are the ones that actually FOLLOW THE RULES.
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Microsoft Sam
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:26:00 -
[1528]
Originally by: Kerushi stuff
you obviously dont and thats your perogative but dont expect ccp to change their stance on it
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Tolin Dorden
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:31:00 -
[1529]
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct.
Hey Keiron let me know if there's an open slot within ccp please.. it seems like there's some really good holiday bonuses coming with the job... considering that appearantly the senior company staff first got back now. I can see this leads to the hard punishment of t20, by simply cutting away a whole month of his holiday.. and force him to help doing patch upgrades..
Apart from that it could be very interresting to hear something from BoD's top brass. Funny how they haven't been out announcing anything yet.... ALL HAIL THE DROMEDARY ALL HAIL THE GOAT ALL HAIL THE ALBATROSS AND DAMN HERE SMELLS OF FISH! |
keymaker
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:32:00 -
[1530]
sigh... what a ******* discrace and solidified even more so by the way CCP are trying to wiggle their way out of it.
I need some clarification on a few things.
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer
posted by keiron.
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault.
So are you telling me you knew this back in summer of last year that t20 had given Bpo's to BOB ? you said he had already been punished for this ? what was the punishment ? so you decided to let BOB keep the BPO's ? till this was all brought to light by a THIRD party.
Im still utterly amazed that this wrong doing was known since last year and nothing was done, not even had the bpos taken away then , no instead you wait till when the conspiracy is exposed by a third party .
If it wasnt for kugutsumen we would be going blindly being raped day in day out by devs helping alliances, great.
Quote: We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
So lets get this straight Kugutsumen was obviously telling the truth about t20 giving bpo's to BOB.
which in theory would mean most of the convo's he has posted are infact not fake. If thats the case have you seen the Pm's forum posts and irc logs of BOB members knowing full well that t20 was in their alliance ?
Sorry if my questions have been asnwered in more depth somewhere but i have not go time to read through 50+ pages of people want more answers.
After 3+ years of play ive never come close to wanting to quit, i think ile reconsider my position in eve now.
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Keldon Raven
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:32:00 -
[1531]
Originally by: Mitsuko Souma Get this through your skulls, 6 ill gotten BPOs does not mean 3 years of grind in BoB and whatever time before BoB (for various corps) gets erased in a hail of OMGWTFDEVHAX ****ery.
Indeed this is true however anything they have acomplished through honest means (and lets face it most of the BoB players are honest victims in this as well) will now forever be overcast by this issue.
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Daddy's Belt
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:33:00 -
[1532]
Daddy's Belt's Law:
Every organization always operates on behalf of the perceived needs and priorities of some core group of key people. This purpose will trump every other organizational loyalty, including those to shareholders, employees, customers, and other constituents.
And now, it's time for your buttwhippin! |
Frogzuk
Dragonian Freelancers Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:36:00 -
[1533]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
I applaude you for the narrow minded approach you have taken in this response, you seem to miss the fundamental issue here that is BoB high command lied - fact and thus you as part of the bob infrastructure should do something about removing these people from their positions other wise you are in fact as bad as them
plus, your remarks are inflammatory and banable in them selves, your alliance has shot itself in one foot you my friend have shot the other, good luck out of eve !
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Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:38:00 -
[1534]
I too would like to see some of the seemingly double standards resolved, if Molle posted RL info on the forums (hundreds of players apparently saw it before he edited it), then he should at the very least get a fairly lengthy forum ban for doing so. You can't just enforce some rules some of the time when you feel like it, that is not ethical in any sense of the word.
These other allegations need to be looked into as well, if some are true (including most shocking ones) then there is really no reason why the mole should lie as to the other stuff. Fabricating huge amounts of chat logs seems like a large expenditure of time IMO. Not saying that alliances other than BoB don't do all of this stuff too, but maybe there needs to be some changing of policies to allow some of this if it's not going to be enforced equally.
Cerwyn
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R'adeh
Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:38:00 -
[1535]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: R'adeh Edited by: R''adeh on 10/02/2007 15:28:47
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
People realize not all of BoB are corrupt Devs. The reason why people are so mad, is that whenever they accused BoB of targeting stuff in POS and other exploits, we were ridiculed by BoB's "OMGHAX, tinfoil hat, STFU or proof, you suck, tinfoil hat!!!1!1!" crew.
Well, turns out we were right I know BoB has a lot of decent fair PVP'ers, no doubt about that. But corrupt devs in your ranks, leaders ridiculing other people for accusing you of stuff that has now been proven as correct (Riddari!!!), and that god damn "tinfoil hat STFU proof" squad has tarnished your AND CCP's name.
I'm sorry for the average BoB member who wants nothing but PVP and had nothing to do with all that bull****, you are the ones suffering from CCP's leniency and the some of your members incredible arrogance and corruption.
There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev...
How are we tarnishing CCP's name?
Riiiight, NO ONE knew about it...and people should believe that After some of you locked us inside a POS, we were made fun of after complaining. Turns out it was a bug not a lot of people knew about, but you ofc new about it. Your LEADER was ebaying a character!! A Dev KNOWING about account sharing of high-level BoB accounts, and he did NOTHING. However, if some random EVE player would get caught, he'd get banned right away...want more?
As I said before, I don't think ALL of BoB (or even the majority) are guilty of knowing what really went on. But some of you knew and kept on ridiculing everyone accusing them. You might be one of the good Bobbits, I'm not accusing you. I'm accusing some of your fellow alliance members for cheating in a frickin' game we pay to play, and now have to find out that we don't all had the SAME CHANCES!!
If you're still ok with what happened, I feel sorry for you
_______________________________________________
My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. |
Maltasras
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:38:00 -
[1536]
Is it legal to offer isk's to reveal "Sir" Molle RL info... or is it legal to try get community to spam his eve mail? If it is legal keep sending mails to sir molle to quit playing if it is not dont do it Allso 1 billion isk's offered for RL info of this RL messaround guy details IF it is legal... if it is not forget it..
THIS was alt posting here.
For real this whole stuff wont have effected me allmost any way in game. Most effects are mental and poor attitude in game of friends who feel betrayed... |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:39:00 -
[1537]
Edited by: Kerushi on 10/02/2007 16:39:39
Originally by: Keldon Raven
Originally by: Mitsuko Souma Get this through your skulls, 6 ill gotten BPOs does not mean 3 years of grind in BoB and whatever time before BoB (for various corps) gets erased in a hail of OMGWTFDEVHAX ****ery.
Indeed this is true however anything they have acomplished through honest means (and lets face it most of the BoB players are honest victims in this as well) will now forever be overcast by this issue.
why would u need t2 ammo bpo`s? u need ammo for the t2 fitted t2 ships so best question is: what other bpo`s did he spawn? the amount must be so high that it would be an economic dissaster, simplest way of covering it up: make a post admitting to some crap bpo`s say it happend in the past and was delt with, wich gives a "get out of jail card" now
if T20 would have been fired (it it trully was in the past), he could have gone public with the exact stuff he spawned to ruine the economics universe wide and an impossible dammage control task for ccp
reason he wasn`t fired and excuses are being used
no, i`m not paranoid, it just wouldn`t suprise me at all
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ChironV
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:41:00 -
[1538]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: ChironV
Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 15:26:20
Originally by: Mayoz Miner
Well tbh he might be a bit irate but he has a good point when I see a BoB member in a nice ship I think " yea probably gained that through cheating" (directly or indirectly). They have BENEFITED from this in many ways too ....butterfly effect..its just sad really cheaters when all said and done
Then you should think again.
Just like we should think again and look at all your posts then ask you to post with a main and stop hiding in an alt like a frightened little child.
BOB's credibility is done. They were tarnished by an untrustworthy Dev. For good, or for bad, no one will trust them again.
Says deep core mining.. Go away goon alt.
Moron. Check my post stats. I checked yours. BOB alt. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
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Elendar
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:47:00 -
[1539]
It was discovered six months ago and they didn't take the bps away then... and now that people actually find out about this they decide oh.. hmm.. maybe we should take these illegally aquired bps away. seems like whoever decided what to do about this case 6 months ago looked on it with a suspisciously favourable eye
either you didn't know about the bps 6 months ago, in which case this is a newly discovered and more serious case and should result in discipline seperatly (as last time hardly seems to have worked with bob keeping the bpos)
or you did know, in which case why remove them now and not then?
Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Xirt must be one of the GREAT leaders in eve to keep you guys shooting shuttles in hophib
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Altemi Calabre
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:49:00 -
[1540]
There is no doubt that the bulk of the community is going to be very unhappy with this news.
To the good CEO of CCP:
I do not envy you. I can only guess what shades of livid, angry and furious you must be chewing through to speak rationally in your post. I believe your policy is sound, both in keeping dev's playing and connected to the community as well as your, for lack of better phrase, personal 'zero tolerance' approach to such infractions.
In the type of environment you are dealing with it's unfortunate that the implication of scandal and impropriety are often as damaging as actual impropriety, leaving you no maneuvering room. I applaud your efforts in restoring order.
To t20:
Your apology is meaningless to most of this community. You abused power that you were not only trusted with, but you did it in a fashion to secure yourself over people who admire, support and dammit man, PAY YOU. You can't even claim disgruntled employee by looks of it as your superiors were categorically forgiving in your case.
The fact you say that only one of the above accusations is true? I call 'shenanigans'. Your credibility is non-existent and the fact is, certainly on the information sharing accusations, there is no easy or meaningful way to _prove_ that accusation as I'm expecting there is no level of forensic log information available to sift through to find anything incriminating. Toss in the ability to use outside communication tools, and you 'sir', have zero credibility on us just taking your word for it.
In a game where people already use alts to dodge meaningful consequence to their actions, your actions illustrate the utter hazard of consequence free environments. People need to be held accountable and in your case, your corp and alliance mates have to be assumed complicit in your actions even if only becuase there is no possible way they did not directly benefit from your actions. How much ISK have you made your corp? Your alliance? The fact that BoB is top dog only reinforces peoples suspicions (however unjustifiably).
You sir, have single handedly given ammunition to every BoB hater in the game. You have in fact, I think, polarized much of the community into assuming they are cheaters (a fate that I am certain the large majority of BoB does not deserve).
To BoB:
Good luck on riding this out lads and lasses. There is no doubt that you are on the chopping block and will be feeling aftershocks of this for a bit. I hope the guilty are caught and dealt with where and if they exist and the innocent suffer no more than absolutely necessary in their game enjoyment.
I'm sorry if this comes across as needlessly harsh. As someone who has maintained communities himself I feel a lot of pathos for CCP right now. An abuse of trusted staff in power is devastating to morale and culture.
My sig says it all, but top marks to CCP on at least making an effort to prove it wrong.
Altemi
~ Why is it those with the greatest responsibility to make good decisions so often seem the least capable or inclined?
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Zenobite
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:51:00 -
[1541]
Edited by: Zenobite on 10/02/2007 16:53:48 Edited by: Zenobite on 10/02/2007 16:53:35
Originally by: Severian Maura So do all the people who where killed by sabres and or the ammo bob used get full refunds back becuase they cheated?
Oh and CCP said there is no favortism for bob but every time CCP gets caught cheating its with BOB.
And the only person who gets punished is the person who brought this information to light.
So in genreal if you ever suspect a deveoper of unfairly helping bob keep your mouth shut or CCP will ban you. Which in turns says CCP condones its devolpers cheating.
Have to admit the acctions of CCP are strongly making me consent to quiting this game.
Yeah thats pretty much what I think, I can't believe the only person who got banned was the one blew the whistle. Total double standards, its pathetic.
Also articles like this are going to destroy Eve's credibility to new players.
just been told can't post this link
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:55:00 -
[1542]
Let's vote for a interview with the CCP Staff. They have to answerer all the question regarding this. No BoB invited to the interview.. ---
My Movies
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Scoundrelus's Alt
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:57:00 -
[1543]
What about the players who accepted the BPOs knowing that it was a dev? Don't they get banned? Who cares if that guy who got his accounts banned broke EULA, frankly had he not broke it most of us would still be living in a state of ignorance. Who cares how much he damaged your reputations, your reputations DESERVED to be damaged, your own employees pretty much broke EULA too and they're still working at CCP.
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Al Franken
The Liberal Media
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:58:00 -
[1544]
Originally by: Xoria Krint Let's vote for a interview with the CCP Staff. They have to answerer all the question regarding this. No BoB invited to the interview..
interview with CCP staff. . . .no BoB invited. . .
does.not.compute
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Comstr
Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 16:58:00 -
[1545]
It's going to be sad, but t20 needs to resign. Because he can never, ever, represent CCP in public again. Who's going to take him seriously now?
It's the only way to close the ****storm, and calm down all the other, unproven but known about, alligations.
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:00:00 -
[1546]
Originally by: Al Franken
Originally by: Xoria Krint Let's vote for a interview with the CCP Staff. They have to answerer all the question regarding this. No BoB invited to the interview..
interview with CCP staff. . . .no BoB invited. . .
does.not.compute
Why do you want to talk to BoB?
"SirMolle, Did you know that the dev's gave you a bpo?" "No"... ---
My Movies
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Nikali
Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:00:00 -
[1547]
Rather off topic, but it seems the forum code can't handle this many pages. We're on page 57 but the navigator bar at the top reads only up to 55. Sirs, I think we lagged the node.
But, eh. From Kieron's responses in his response thread thing, it looks like what's gonna happen has happened. I do agree that Molle's release of RL data on an individual was really bad form. If someone did that to me, I'd be taking whatever legal recourse was available. But then again, this 'whistle blower' is a hacker and, from what I've read, was accessing people's accounts left and right without permission (not that permission matters anyway). So good riddance to /that/. I like my account the way it is. With all the ISK and private data intact. So I won't cry about him being gone.
Anyway, I'm sleepy, and this thread is awful. Bedtime.
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Happydayz
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:01:00 -
[1548]
also, CCP is very very lucky that this is coming out now, AFTER the fan fest.
All of their ridiculous cover-ups, backtracking, and completely vacuous explanations would hold little weight if they had to confront their subscribers face to face.
And watching the neckbeard rage would also be hillarious to boot
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:01:00 -
[1549]
Originally by: Comstr It's going to be sad, but t20 needs to resign. Because he can never, ever, represent CCP in public again. Who's going to take him seriously now?
No idea, but I can't wait to see the reaction to his next post on the forums if he does continue working at CCP.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Nikali
Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:01:00 -
[1550]
Whups. Scratch that. It caught up with us. My bad, folks. Heh.
Oh. To be on topic: BoB. Rawr. Evil and mean. Okay, I'm good.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:05:00 -
[1551]
Why would he take the bad BPO's illogical, if he only took those I don't see much damage -- but there is more. And why is he not fired??? Most rediculous thing I have ever heard.
I have no doubt that the top members in BoB know things about t20. Reasons because in 6 months it will have to slip via ts, etc. There is no way they did not know of this just for the fact that it has been to long, and you can't keep secrets for 6 months its bound to slip. BoB are quite and not defending their case like they DID in the past when there were no facts, now there is and they are quite. I heard t20 also gave alot of dev secrets away to BoB as well and such. All im saying in 6 months no one can keep a secret, he must have told the top members; BoB is just as guilty.. they knew about this. Seems like everyone was right bob does cheat
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:07:00 -
[1552]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Welfare State
Originally by: Reiisha
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Why I do believe this is irony, old chums.
Thanks for proving my point.
Reiisha....it's guilt by association. You should be old enough to know this by now. You and your corpies unbeknown (maybe) drove the getaway car every time you jumped on the forums to flame and say "proof or STFU" to those who cried out that there was something going on.
Until you distance yourself from a crooked alliance you will be known as lowlife liar, cheater and scum. I, like many others, find it Ironic that an alliance that insisted they had no help and were just better.....are exactly NOT that. People who played the game and and either joined or one day wanted to be part of the "Best PVPrs" are now more than second guessing themselves.
I read about a big argument between some trusted directors of a big corp (cant remember who right now....maybe someone can help me) where a couple directors were going to quit because another director knew something they didn't.
I will say this...I respect you for posting on this thread. It seems that Sirmolle and the others are to busy deleting e-mails or something to answer questions that have arisen. Maybe BoB has a gag order in effect...wouldnt that be funny.
Your ship is sinking. If you are looking for a corp to fly with put in your application. You wouldn't get hanger rights or TS passwords, but it'll get you back on your feet again. We could use some good pilots. A couple of ours got disgusted about BoB having an unfair advantage and left game a while back.
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:07:00 -
[1553]
This issue is going to be hanging over BOB's head for a long long time, for the sake of BOB and for the sake of the whole community it should be dealt with now.
As I can see it, Dev/player interaction has alway been accepted to happen, players have been recuruited as dev's, players have been consulted by dev's. There is a relaxed stance around this chattting with Dev and players which in turn has led to some things I am sure would not be approved of by this community.
This relaxed attitude needs to stop, this attitude is what has led us to the "t20" incident, one dev makes a mistake and takes things to far and gets caught. Now damage control is in place..but it is not enough.
If the communities questions are not answered to satisfaction this incident will never ever be forgotten and it will taint everything BOB does in the future.
A full investigation must be done and members of the alliance in question must be found innocent or guilty to finally allow us to put this behind us.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:10:00 -
[1554]
Top members of BoB knew ALL about this.
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:11:00 -
[1555]
Originally by: Nim9i5 Top members of BoB knew ALL about this.
Of curse they did ---
My Movies
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:12:00 -
[1556]
Originally by: Nim9i5 Top members of BoB knew ALL about this.
like that would be a shoking revelation
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:13:00 -
[1557]
Originally by: Kilrauko
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: MegabitOne Kudos to CCP for sharing this internal information with the EVE-Online community.
I can imagine only very few other games companies where the CEO himself informs their community of their internal workings like CCP did on this occasion. Thanks for sharing this with us, not in the least in the way the communication was made: one from T20 to say a big mea culpa, and a very dry, to the facts one from the CEO. Respect!
Allthough the facts are regrettable, CCP gets a big thumbs up from me for doing the right thing. How the case with T20 is/has been handled is up to CCP's discretion and will.
I sincerely hope that CCP continues to be as open in the future as they have been in the past!
Well done CCP, great communication management.
either that is poor sarcasm as it sounds like butt kissing or you don't understand that the majority of the playerbase has been F'ed over by CCP and their favortism with the allowed usage of cheats.
Or you dont get it that majority of the playerbase, meaning over 20k accounts are currently playing happily in TQ. I'm mining omber atm, what you're doing? If the word you meant was minority then your statement is correct one and we see that minority, about 1600 posts where most are double or triple posts here, making the numbers go around 700 people. Even if there were 9 more angry customers behind every person who posted here it's still minority.
So I ask again, I'm happily mining omber and enjoying the game I play, what are you doing?
well, I have ensured all my accounts are closed, and will not renew, and I am also talking to the Credit Card company about this issue.
how is that for what I am doing.
I will play the game for the remainder of the existing subs, and then be gone.
I have written 2 more companies onto the "never buy from" list EA was there, now CCP, and White Wolf.
Is WW happy about this sudden exposure of events and the credibility issue that has ensued, from something that started before the merger but was covered up?
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niroshido
Caldari Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:14:00 -
[1558]
wow, what a sh** storm
points that have already being expressed 1: T20 should be sacked 2: the T2 BPO's withdrawn from the accused 3: the accused alliance charged for exploiting the game 4: CCP held accountable for all allegations of misconduct
yup thats bout it before it starts getting repetative
The longer CCP tries to cover its tale, the deeper the sh** piles up, it just doesnt work, the only solution i can find from this is: justice be served on a dish to all who offended, broke the rules and r**ed the game
as everyone says: The T2 BPO's should be removed (this is a must, there should be no leniency on anything relating to certain powers changing the outcome on the lottery)
compensation to the community by CCP for allowing misconduct by any member of staff
fact is, staff should not be allowed in corps or player owned alliances due to bia's opinions, the same applies to the GM's, its not nice seeing a GM being leaniant on a friendly corp member for an ingame offence and then the GM being stringent on a person from an opposing corp over the same manner.
If CCP expects the online community to forgive and forget this major breach of trust, CCP must be willing to make sacrifices, or at least even out the score EQUALLY
disclaimer: this is my opinion not my corps, or alliances opinion
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:16:00 -
[1559]
Edited by: Nils Bohr on 10/02/2007 17:12:43
Originally by: Frug It sounds to me like some players will never be satisfied. If you're never satisfied, why bother whining?
Quote: Did Cyvok indeed log of his Titan only to have a dev make it re-appear?
If you believe something like that, you will never be satisfied. That's just absurd.
Tinfoil hats ftw.
About two weeks ago, I'd have agreed with this.
But it's really no more absurd than a developer putting his job at risk by fraudulently spawning rare items in game and giving them to his mates. No more absurd than CCP's decision to allow those fraudulently obtained items to remain in-game even after learning of the fraud.
Tell, me, Frug -- or kieron, if you're reading this -- what about CCP's conduct to date would lead me to believe this did not happen? Am I supposed to believe noooo, no dev would EVER do something like that? Or perhaps that nooooo, CCP would NEVER turn a blind eye to it?
I had a lot of faith in CCP's integrity when all this started.
Had.
Past tense.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:17:00 -
[1560]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: R'adeh
People realize not all of BoB are corrupt Devs. The reason why people are so mad, is that whenever they accused BoB of targeting stuff in POS and other exploits, we were ridiculed by BoB's "OMGHAX, tinfoil hat, STFU or proof, you suck, tinfoil hat!!!1!1!" crew.
Well, turns out we were right I know BoB has a lot of decent fair PVP'ers, no doubt about that. But corrupt devs in your ranks, leaders making for of people for accusing you of stuff that has now been proven as correct, and that god damn "tinfoil hat STFU proof" squad has tarnished your AND CCP's name.
I'm sorry for the average BoB member who wants nothing but PVP and had nothing to do with all that bull****, you are the ones suffering from CCP's leniency and the some of your members incredible arrogance and corruption.
you weren't right, there was a dev that cheated with some bpo's. The rest has been proven to be bull****, so the tinfoil stfu was right.
proof??
show said proof or STFU. (hi there BoB alt <waves to the BoB alt>)
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:21:00 -
[1561]
Originally by: slothe didnt the gm who spawned an ultra raven setup and got found out get sacked?
i dont understand the difference.
The difference was that the public knew about it then. Noone except some people in cpp knew about it when t20 was caugght and they thought they could keep it hidden if they didnt remove the bpos or fire him. you'll never jump alone |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:22:00 -
[1562]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: R'adeh Edited by: R''adeh on 10/02/2007 15:28:47
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
People realize not all of BoB are corrupt Devs. The reason why people are so mad, is that whenever they accused BoB of targeting stuff in POS and other exploits, we were ridiculed by BoB's "OMGHAX, tinfoil hat, STFU or proof, you suck, tinfoil hat!!!1!1!" crew.
Well, turns out we were right I know BoB has a lot of decent fair PVP'ers, no doubt about that. But corrupt devs in your ranks, leaders ridiculing other people for accusing you of stuff that has now been proven as correct (Riddari!!!), and that god damn "tinfoil hat STFU proof" squad has tarnished your AND CCP's name.
I'm sorry for the average BoB member who wants nothing but PVP and had nothing to do with all that bull****, you are the ones suffering from CCP's leniency and the some of your members incredible arrogance and corruption.
There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev, and he used those BPO's to make ammo which people shot with their guns instead of selling it, to which i might add, bpo's the alliance has multiples of due to the number of ammo bpo's released.
yayaya, silence little cheater...let the honest players talk.
How are we tarnishing CCP's name?
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:26:00 -
[1563]
Having read your responses thus far, Kieron, I have to say that two stances on CCP's part will simply not be acceptable.
Firstly, any attempt to say "The rules say so" (as in banning Kugu) - because we've already seen how little the "rules" mean to you when you want them to. Take a pause, draw a line under the past - then decide which rules will apply from now on and which won't - then enforce that rigorously. e.g. account sharing - we all know it happens. So either make it legal or stop it happening. Everywhere. Account transfers - either ban everyone or ban no one. But this half way fudge where some get away with it and some don't has to STOP.
Secondly, any attempt to say "we can't tell you the details but trust us". Sorry, you forfeited that right when you covered it up and then tried to keep covering it up.
Judging from your responses to date, the above are exactly the lines you are taking. Sorry, it's not going to fly no more... |
Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:26:00 -
[1564]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Welfare State
Originally by: Reiisha
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Why I do believe this is irony, old chums.
Thanks for proving my point.
The leaders of BoB knew all about this, it is just to conclusive to be otherwise.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:28:00 -
[1565]
Originally by: Irrilian If I petition another player how can I trust that my petition is handled fairly, that the person answering the petition isn't a corp mate of the person I'm petitioning?
If I post on the forums, debating with another player over some hot topic, how can I trust that the forum mods will view all posts with professional objectivity, that whomever is moderating isn't doing so with their own agenda in mind?
If I take part in an event, risking my ship for some rp cause, how can I trust that the event isn't rigged, that it hasn't been leaked to some other group whom have prepped for it?
If I want to try out some new content after an expansion how can I trust that I'm on a level playing field with all the other players, that other players haven't been primed on how to take advantage of that content as soon as it goes live?
What measures are CCP putting in place to answer these questions, to ensure that not only is the game fair, but clearly seen to be fair?
QFT.
Stories similar to all of those have been circulating since I started playing and every time the accusor was flamed down as a *****pot.
How *****pot do those stories seem now? =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Mush Room
Svea Rike Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:33:00 -
[1566]
I can't believe the person(s) responsible haven't been fired yet.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:34:00 -
[1567]
Originally by: Nikali To be honest, I highly doubt whatever is said here, will matter. Nor will a large amount of accounts be cancelled, or whatnot. Sure, some people will quit, in a horrible, awful tizzy, and feel proud that they're not playing Eve anymore.
Y'know, as if Eve suddenly wasn't worth playing anymore. Because...someone got free stuff? If you're gonna quit, it's your loss. I will continue to pay CCP, and be the happy little peon that I am, because things like this can't ruin the game for me. Sure, it wasn't right. And sure, it sorta sucks. And sure, it might be some grand government conspiracy to steal my Twinkies or something.
But then again, I don't really care. CCP's CEO himself has posted his two bits, and that's as high as it goes. It don't get any higher than that. It's done. Whine all you like, I'm certain that the doors are shut and the presses have stopped printing, and we were lucky to get the words we did. Because to be quite honest, they didn't have to say one. Single. Word. The only thing CCP has to answer to is your monthly payments, and unless you're somehow scarred to the core because of this, I'm sure you're like me, and will continue to play right up until the devs are gatecamping Jita in titans. Which would do wonders for the traffic problem, let me tell you something.
So, while this is the finest fifty-three pages of steaming monkey-dung throwing meyham I have ever read, in my entire life...I don't think it really matters that much. Outrage, anger, horror, shock, tears, blood, and BoB...quite the roller coaster, but I'm more concerned with the almighty shamed conquerors coming and knocking on my door ingame. Sure, I might get blown up by a Sabre of questionable manufacture...but eh. I'm sure I'll find some way to move on in life, somehow.
Then again, that's apathy for you. Wish I could garner up the energy to care so much, but eh. So many more important things in life to worry about than who spawned what for who.
And by the way, if a guy loses his job over that, I'd be mighty disappointed. I imagine he's kicking himself in the butt over and over, wondering why he ever did it in the first place. If I were in his position, the guilt'd be a hundered times worse than any chewing out by my bosses. The disdain and pure, unmitigated hatred and contempt shown in this thread is rather potent. Don't envy him at all.
~Nik
the essence of your post is soooooooo true.
no need to get upset over this game, we can all just quit in mass, and give another company our real life cash, a company that hasn't destroyed the playerbases trust.
2007.02.09 18:45 Victim: Playerbase Alliance: All except BoB Corp: All except BoB Destroyed: Subscriptions System: Tranquility Security: heh Involved parties: Name: CCP Destroyed items: Playerbase trust and confidence
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:34:00 -
[1568]
Cant believe I invested money in this crap, I want my money back!!
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SPIONKOP
Caldari Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:36:00 -
[1569]
Originally by: SpitRoast DDoS attack on the servers anyone? maybe we the paying customer can actulay do something to force ccp to act?
if someone can get a relatively harmless source code and set up and irc channel for the botnet id be happy to perform the attack.
(if you already have a botnet please get your bots into the channel to boost the attacks damage)
If you live in the UK i do belive that will get you jail. What a stupid idea. You want CCP to act, cancel subscription or write a letter. Do it the legal way.
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Happydayz
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:37:00 -
[1570]
Originally by: Lucre Having read your responses thus far, Kieron, I have to say that two stances on CCP's part will simply not be acceptable.
Firstly, any attempt to say "The rules say so" (as in banning Kugu) - because we've already seen how little the "rules" mean to you when you want them to. Take a pause, draw a line under the past - then decide which rules will apply from now on and which won't - then enforce that rigorously. e.g. account sharing - we all know it happens. So either make it legal or stop it happening. Everywhere. Account transfers - either ban everyone or ban no one. But this half way fudge where some get away with it and some don't has to STOP.
Secondly, any attempt to say "we can't tell you the details but trust us". Sorry, you forfeited that right when you covered it up and then tried to keep covering it up.
Judging from your responses to date, the above are exactly the lines you are taking. Sorry, it's not going to fly no more...
quotin' dis.
I think CCP underestimates just how deeply they have violated the inherent pact of trust between game's professional staff and its player base.
CCP has lost its right to ask their subscribers to give them their trust as they forfeited it months ago with their cover up and worst yet, continuing efforts at a cover up.
To repeat what Lucre said: establish some ground rules like every other business, and actually follow through and enforce them. The best way to re-establish trust is to actually stick to whatever rules you lay down. Your constant waffling on the issue, enforcing some rules for some people while ignoring others is ridiculous and removes any of the little remaining customer trust that you can still call on.
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:39:00 -
[1571]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: R'adeh
People realize not all of BoB are corrupt Devs. The reason why people are so mad, is that whenever they accused BoB of targeting stuff in POS and other exploits, we were ridiculed by BoB's "OMGHAX, tinfoil hat, STFU or proof, you suck, tinfoil hat!!!1!1!" crew.
Well, turns out we were right I know BoB has a lot of decent fair PVP'ers, no doubt about that. But corrupt devs in your ranks, leaders making for of people for accusing you of stuff that has now been proven as correct, and that god damn "tinfoil hat STFU proof" squad has tarnished your AND CCP's name.
I'm sorry for the average BoB member who wants nothing but PVP and had nothing to do with all that bull****, you are the ones suffering from CCP's leniency and the some of your members incredible arrogance and corruption.
you weren't right, there was a dev that cheated with some bpo's. The rest has been proven to be bull****, so the tinfoil stfu was right.
Oh really? Do you want to provide that proof? Because, the same evidence that was used to essentially force T20 to admit a small portion of the overall crimes he comitted agains the EVE community, points to much more. As of yet, I haven't seen a single thing disproving ANY of it. On the contrary, the longer this goes, the more those claims keep being proven.
You're a BoB alt. Can you say beyond any shadow of doubt that T20 was NOT actively encouraging and participating in account sharing via the Cynonet? I've seen the "proof" about the BPOs, and T20 has only admitted to half of them.
You say the rest was proven to be BS? Where?
Proof, or STFU.
At the very least, can you stop spamming? If the mods deleted all of your posts, this thread would only be 27 pages instead of 55+
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:46:00 -
[1572]
Originally by: Microsoft Sam
Originally by: Mysticaa rabble
t20 was already punished about the bpos when it happened. they cant punish him TWICE FOR IT.
Punished? How?
He was forced to pull Ishos out of RKK, but he LEFT ANOTHER CHARACTER in RKK!! The BPOs stayed in RKK, as did T20, under a new character. I'm trying to see any degree of punishment, and failing.
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oingo
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:47:00 -
[1573]
I am a small business owner. If an employee of mine was ever caught stealing, he would be terminated immediately with out hesitation. That is what this dev has done to this community. He stole. He took what was not his, and quite honestly borders on embezzlement. How do we know that the ill gotten gains were not being sold for a personal financial gain? The fact that this guy is still working for CCP is amazing. Concratz CCP, you have left the door open for all of the player base not to trust the management any longer. This is an incredibly poor decision that will haunt this game for some time to come. Terminate the dev in question and you will finally be on your way to mending relations. Untill than, enjoy all the bad press that is coming...
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Welfare State
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:47:00 -
[1574]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Welfare State
Originally by: Reiisha
How would you feel if you'd been called a lowlife liar, cheater and scum for no reason at all by complete strangers?
Why I do believe this is irony, old chums.
Thanks for proving my point.
I don't think you guys are cheaters, liars or scum. But BoB really has a short collective memory.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:49:00 -
[1575]
Originally by: SpitRoast DDoS attack on the servers anyone? maybe we the paying customer can actulay do something to force ccp to act?
if someone can get a relatively harmless source code and set up and irc channel for the botnet id be happy to perform the attack.
(if you already have a botnet please get your bots into the channel to boost the attacks damage)
ohboy, script kiddy dumbarse post of the year award for you.
"gee they broke a rule, so i'll break the law" - engage brain before you type least you implicate yourself in such an event caused by less then admirable players that see you as a scapegoat for their revenge (in this games 'culture', based on what has been uncovered, it may happen, and would hate for an innocent to get dragged to prison for an idle act of posturing, while the real criminal gets off free...)
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Keldon Raven
Minmatar Free Minmatar Science and Industry Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:51:00 -
[1576]
Originally by: Imbri Edited by: Imbri on 10/02/2007 17:30:03 I have no issue with devs/employees playing the game as long as they are not given an unfair advantage over paying customers. However being allowed to cheat doesn't say much for your company or its employees. You can bet this will get swept under the rug and Bob/devs will continue its practices as normal.
Hmmmm actions like that will not aid anyones cause and simply reult in you being banned - however if this is your answer to problem prehap this might be for the best (unless you are a dev of course in which case its a slap on the wrist and you are free to do it again it seems)
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:54:00 -
[1577]
Originally by: Keldon Raven
Originally by: Imbri Edited by: Imbri on 10/02/2007 17:30:03 I have no issue with devs/employees playing the game as long as they are not given an unfair advantage over paying customers. However being allowed to cheat doesn't say much for your company or its employees. You can bet this will get swept under the rug and Bob/devs will continue its practices as normal.
Hmmmm actions like that will not aid anyones cause and simply reult in you being banned - however if this is your answer to problem prehap this might be for the best (unless you are a dev of course in which case its a slap on the wrist and you are free to do it again it seems)
There is no such thing as a "ban" in the computer world. You can just change your isp.
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Kurull Skullsplitter
Minmatar Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:54:00 -
[1578]
It seems to me that Section 11. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS within the EULA is relevant to a rather large percentage of posts in this thread.
I am dismayed at the behaviour of an individual who it seems was "cheating". I can't say I'm surprised. Human nature is not always a pretty thing to behold. |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:56:00 -
[1579]
Originally by: Freaky Bare
If their country's laws are at all like those here in the U.S.A. - they CANNOT fire him. You simply CANNOT fire someone 6+ months after the offense is made known. I cannot imagine how he kept his job - but he did. Case closed.
Just as an FYI..
I live in Florida, USA and we are a "Right to work" state. That means I could fire you simply for wearing a blue shirt today or because I don't like your taste in music. Your only recourse is to file for unemployment while looking for a job. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Plommon
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Posted - 2007.02.10 17:57:00 -
[1580]
Come on guys I think you got it all wrong, I mean fire t20 is just 100% wrong. If anyone should be fired from CCP it's the devs playing in ASCN because they did a crappy job saving that alliance. I mean, at least the devs in BOB make them look good...
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:01:00 -
[1581]
he can go work at mcdonalds
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Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:02:00 -
[1582]
Still waiting on a response to these other, rather important issues.
* T20 claimed there were only 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet with full knowledge of the account sharing being used to create the cynonet. Accounts shared by all of the Directors in BoB. Every single one of those accounts should be fully banned, if not every single account owned by the BoB directors who took part in the account sharing. Considering other account sharing players have been banned, the answer about what to do here should be obvious. You do know how to compare IP logs, right?
* T20 led BoB's capital fleet, with inside knowledge of game mechanics, and somehow BoB just magically happens to control the largest amount of space. Is anything going to be done to balance this unfair advantage given to the BoB alliance?
* The financial gain given to BoB through early, and 'illegal' aquisition of those BPOs has a much large ripple effect in terms of economic and military power that needs to be balanced. What are CCPs plan to right that wrong?
* What is the nature and purpose of the Polaris vessels seen around GoonSwarm's moons as some of them are claiming?
* Is a further level of scandal required to get LV's ill gotten event Mothership removed?
* Unban Kugutsumen's accounts. This shouldn't even be up for debate. This whole scenario is reprehensible, and needs to be set right ASAP.
This isn't over yet. There is more required of CCP. Far more in fact, and we're waiting.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:07:00 -
[1583]
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
FWIW, if (at any time) I mention "BoB" in my posts I am more than likely referring to the collective leaders of BoB that *DID* know about t20. I admit that in my case it is easier to type in "BoB" isntead of "DHB Preacher, Sir Molle, et al"..
However BoB members must realize that the BoB Forum Warriors also set you guys up to reap what you sowed. The shear smugness, inflamatory and derogatory demeanor of your typical BoB post here for the past year has really soured alot of people against BoB.
Remember all the BoB forum banners with cutesy little things like "Log in with Dev Powers? Y/N"? Doesn't seem to funny now. Remember all the flaming, crying of tin foil hattery, etc the BoB forum warriors proclaimed every time it was mentioned about devs being in BoB? Doesn't seem far-fetched now, does it?
Perhaps if the rank and file members of BoB had tried to reign in the Forum Warriors the general attitude towards all things BoB would be different. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Gigi Barbagrigia
Latent Appliance Fetishists
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:08:00 -
[1584]
FFS, and I only wanted to skim what's going on on forums before logging in ... three hours ago. Googling this mess was just salt to injury.
First thing first though; you all got it wrong. t20 (correctly) realized there's no taking BoB down using "regular" means so he committed ultimate sacrifice, permadeath, to achieve the goal.
Sorry, had to do it. Hard enough to keep clear head about this w/o an attempt at humor, no matter how feeble.
1. t20 employment That's down to his contract with CCP and company's policy, none of which are any of our business.
2. Reimbursement Nowhere in legal part of agreement between us and CCP regarding their service for which we are paying is stated that we are in any way eligible for any kind of refund should such action be discovered. Also, any and all of us are free to terminate rental to said service at any time without further notice and/or specified reason. As for moral part of it; c'mon, give me a break. First and foremost they're running a business. Of course they have and will put up smokescreens, wouldn't you?
3. The game Dunno about you but I'm not playing Eve because I find Helmar to be cool guy or Oveur crazy enough dev or TomB smart yet funny. I play because I like the game. And all this mess doesn't even scratch the fact. CCP being the way it is is just a bonus.
4. Devs playing Tarkan Kador's initial post as well as his follow-ups cover it very well imho. Alliance politics is metagaming and that is sufficiently independent of game mechanics that you really don't need to be high ranking member of some high profile group to "get a feel" for the game. Oveur himself stated one of most memorable aspects of his TQ involvement was politics. He spoke about it in past tense though. Why? Could it be that he realized you just can't keep yourself impartial enough once your actions can affect thousands of people, some of which can come as close to friend as internet allows? Or because bag was bursting at the stitches (Jun 06<Fanfest) and it was time to bail? Another smokescreen? Anyway, immersion is not needed Helmar. Sorry, you got that wrong.
5. Now what? We play for fun, no? Does it matter if you got killed by missile manufactured using "illegal" print or not? Whole economic part of this is drop in the ocean. It makes no difference. BoB don't pwn because of it. And I somehow believe they would gladly pay 100B if this could just go away. Intel and inside knowledge on the other hand does make a difference. Unfortunately, see 2.
6. Internal Affairs Who guards the guards?
Worst thing we, the community, can do is blow this out of proportion. Majority of playerbase wasn't and won't even be affected. Those that were; remember last time you were explaining your buddy why Eve is so great? How you most certainly used that term many of us often neglect precisely because of this game, real life. Only in completely different context. Yes, at times it gets scaringly similar.
This whole thing is bad, no doubt about it. No point in making it worse though. Roids are still there, agents as well. And your favorite target, hopefully, too. Go get'em.
Sux to be BoB ain't it?
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Cker Heel
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:11:00 -
[1585]
Originally by: oingo I am a small business owner. If an employee of mine was ever caught stealing, he would be terminated immediately with out hesitation.
Quite so, but nothing was stolen. Some database entries were changed. These particular changes rightly upset many customers of an entertainment company, but it is not theft.
If in-game items had actual real world value, I could sue in-game pirates at real courts for destroying and taking my property. In-game items have no legal value. CCP can do anything they please to the game with zero legal repercussions.
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Kristanna
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:15:00 -
[1586]
Edited by: Kristanna on 10/02/2007 18:12:33 Phew 58 pages.......me thinks this is not fully sorted yet.....
Disappointed that this was known about last year and not sorted. Disappointed if the dev knew about the account sharing.
Should he lose his job??? No but all developers within that alliance should be removed.
Shall be checking this thread regularly to see if the other issues are dealt with (ie. the other bpo's)
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Vaan2
Fatalix Inc. Schism.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:15:00 -
[1587]
To be fair, I feel some of the anger dissipated here is a little OTT. Whilst I understand where <some> people are coming from. Calling for the disbanding of BoB as an alliance would ultimately be a mistake and unduly punish many of its members purely on the basis of association. I imagine the average BoB grunt does what he/she is told and follows the chain of command like any other soldier. Punishment for transgressions of the EULA by certain other individuals is another matter entirely.
I have been in Fleet engagements against BoB, Fix and MC and have had lag experiences which appeared somewhat anomalous. But hey what do I know, I dont have any proof, just a feeling. And herein lies the problem, whether true or not the disclosure of t20's transgressions make people think something that may or may not be neccesarily true. (the Tinfoil factor)
The question I believe many people are now asking themselves is; does the association of developers in BoB allow their brass access to proprietary knowledge which gives them a tactical advantage ? Maybe, I dont know. Though the doubt instilled by an admission of guilt over the BPO debacle by t20, further increases the suspicion that MAYBE it does.
I have no doubt that BoB uses definitive strategies to achieve their goals. Are these strategies derived from information gleaned casually from their developer members ? Possibly, OFC proud BoB members will rebutt this and claim their skills, organisation and experience are the mitigating factors. With their recent success an argument could be made for either or both explanations. Skills and experience aside BoB will be forever branded as cheaters because of this incident. This is unfortunate because I believe a majority of Bobbits play by the rules.
I know alot of people are angry at CCP over allowing devs in alliances, but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater just yet. EvE is a complex non-trivial piece of technology that takes not only a lot of resources to design and develop, but a lot to maintain. The issue of the devs playing is moot, for the game to survive, grow and scale they must play. Should they be allowed in major alliances ? Definitely with one caveat:
'Under no circumstances should a TQ playing developer expose their status as being one.'
Simply, it is too much a conflict of interest and temptation for others (who know) to mine that proprietary knowledge out of them.
Frankly IMHO this latest revelation will be a unifying factor of unprecedented proportions against the BoB axis. A sleeping giant is awakening, fueled by the indignation of confirmed cheating and collusion.
My condolences to those innocent players who have been tainted unfairly by association. Whilst none of this diminishes your capacity as a group, it strengthens your enemies resolve. Injustice is a powerful motivator.
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Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:15:00 -
[1588]
Edited by: Tripoli on 10/02/2007 18:12:15
Well, this thread is way too long to commit to reading, so here are my thoughts:
1. I won't leave EVE until Tranquility goes permanently offline, so no worries there. You've built a great game, and I won't let an incident like this stop me from enjoying EVE. 2. I hope and pray that t20 and all other members of CCP realize how detrimental this kind of thing can be to the playerbase and their company. You have lost a very important thing from a good portion of this community, and that is Trust. 3. I want to let CCP and t20 know that I have no hard feelings. We're all human. We all make mistakes. (Figures it was a Caldari.) *cough*
Now, let's get on with life and play some EVE! ---
323 of 341 skills trained. |
h4x0
Caldari Apostles of Insanity
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:16:00 -
[1589]
As I said previously. I know I was banned on my main account (FatBalls) unfairly. I now see how easy it is and know see that perhaps the person whom said he got my skills and pics was not kidding. He hangs out with all of people in question so it would have been nothing for him to get the info from them. It is apparent that they themself have been caught doing all kinds of things against the player base this is jus tone more thing..
I want my character unbanned please thanks.
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Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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Crandall Six
Caldari Black Knight Buccaneers Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:18:00 -
[1590]
I'm a little confused on a couple of points so hopefully someone can clear at least some of them up.
T20's misdeeds were discovered in June. He was "punished" when? When was he leading the BoB cap fleets? Did he still have a character in RKK after getting caught?
What is the reasoning behind leaving these BPO's in the game after he was punished? CCP admits they made a mistake here, but not WHY the decision was made to leave them in. When T20 was caught and had to leave, why did he give the BPO's to RKK rather than remove them from the game? He knew how he got them, so why leave them in at all?
Note: I don't for a minute believe there is a sytematic abuse of the game by CCP developers and GM's. However, their constant half steps and empty posts do nothing but add fuel to the fire. Even if they have come clean and investigated everyone, how many of the people crying foul will believe them now? I have no idea if they are still covering up more serious offenses, but they way they have been acting makes it appear that way.
I have no useful advice to CCP, this entire drama soaked hell is a creature of your own making. Your refusal to address many of the issues present continue to keep this alive.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:22:00 -
[1591]
Originally by: Mitsuko Souma Oh for the love of whichever God you choose, once again some of you really need to get over yourselves.
Yes what t20 did was bad, hes imperfect - so are a lot of people - big fracking deal. This does not make the whole of BoB pure evil cheating peons of hate that could only get where they are through dev help.
Those saying 'omgz but teh BPOz funded theirz w4rz against teh ASCNz everyonez"ú!' Please. Get a clue.
CCP must be going through a REALLY harsh time atm internally and people making wild, utterly stupid brainless claims simply out of spite and patheticness surely isn't helping.
Get this through your skulls, 6 ill gotten BPOs does not mean 3 years of grind in BoB and whatever time before BoB (for various corps) gets erased in a hail of OMGWTFDEVHAX ****ery.
God damn I hate public forums.
There seems to be 2 distinct views on this matter:
Some people, like yourself, believe that the 6 BPOs were the ONLY infraction. Others think that is all that is being admitted to and there is much, much more to these allegations (and not all directly involving BoB).
The second group certainly seems to have more ammo on their side. Shady events, reports of GMs scouting moons in a system 24 hours before a wardec, BoB locking down a system right before an Event, allegations of gross misconduct that a dev knew about (Cynonet account sharing), the matter of DHB Preacher admitting to accepting the account of a friend (you can transfer CHARACTERS, but tranferring accounts is against the EULA), questionable placement of complexes and profitable loot drops in BoB space, BoB members going unpunished for various infractions while other people (no, not Kugutsman) have been banned/suspended/punished for far less (account sharing, Sir Molle giving out K's RL info *AND* making RL threats against him, allegations of BoB members profiting from a certain auction site, etc).
Most of these are things that have been witnessed and/or admitted to. There is at least some level of offered 'proof' to those claims. The rest are too convenient to be merely 'coincidental' after this current fiasco came to light.
Notice I'm not including the far-fetched and much more difficult to prove accusations like purposeful node crashes.
It is my personal opinion, however, that anyone willing to believe that t20 ONLY spawned the BPOs either has an agenda of their own or isn't aware of all the accusations and offered proof. Why on earth would t20 and CCP would risk this much bad press (google "eve online dev misconduct") and ill will from their fiercly loyal customer base for ONLY a few lower end T2 BPOs? =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Halada
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:22:00 -
[1592]
If summing the facts up correctly:
- First, they tried to ignore the whole thing - Then they banned Kugu's 5 accounts, supposedly for EULA violations - They let Molle get away unbanned with posting his RL details. - They let Dianabolic get away unbanned with RL harrassment. - They tried to say the only issues were an event where they couldn't prove or deny the accusations now, plus the revealing of dev characters - so can we put this behind us now please. - They got themselves T20 as a sacrificial goat that acknowledged cheating, admitting about the illegal spawning of some third-world BPO's nobody cares about (that we already had proofs about). We are suppose to believe those were the only ones ?
After all that, people still believe CCP will act accordingly ? How many EULA violations do you think those DEVS committed? After this becomes a 100-pages thread, it will be locked, then deleted, and the forum mods will be ordered to take down any thread about this automatically, until people get tired of it.
Most people will keep playing, because what makes this game so great are the players. CCP will now forever have a stain on its reputation, and it will be EXTREMELY bad for their reputation in the business world. You think they'll be signing any significant contracts after EVE for other games or other projects? Nobody will want to work with a bunch of liars, they'll pay then.
Believe me no one will never forget this, but by judging at CCP's response to the whole thing (see above), it is fair to say they are not acting according to moral standards, but rather to protect their asses. So why bother talking about morality? They have shown on multiple occasions already they don't follow that path... Karma will be a ***** to them.
Click on my sig to read it ! |
Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:26:00 -
[1593]
Yeah, what people gotta understand is the fact that CCP is going to do everything BUT the right thing in this situation. Why? Because the guilty party is:
A) One of their best friends
and more importantly. . .
B) A DEVELOPER!
If this had been some GM or some other employee of CCP, say. . .marketing and public relations (), they more than likely would have gotten the boot. Why? They're easily replaceable in the command structure. Devs, on the other hand, have ALL the power. Why? Without them the game stagnates and no new content is put out and CCP goes right down the crapper. I don't know how high up in the dev structure T20 is, but obviously he isn't some wet-behind-the-ears guy that just started learning his trade. Thus, Hellmar and CCP have decided that it is more important to keep his cheating lying ass around than to be ethical and fair and honest with the EVE community.
Now, you ask how they can get away with this? Easy. They know that a large portion of their subscribers will never find out about it. I know damn well the folks on EVE: China don't have a clue and devs are probably over there right now spawning stuff for themselves left and right. Also, out of the folks that do find out. . .a lot of us won't quit because there isn't a better MMO out there right now, we've made all of our friends here in EVE and don't want to leave them, and because a lot of us are too dim-witted to see that there is a LOT more corruption going on at CCP than just this one incident.
If CCP isn't going to fire T20. . .well, that's unethical and I MAYBE could convince myself that it's the right thing to do to keep him since he basically makes the game. However, what about banning Molle's lame ass? He and his cronies that run BOB should be GONE. CCP just seems to be hoping that everyone buys that tripe T20 posted that he "didn't do nothin' else! I swears!" Right. So, he was giving BOB spawned BPOs (and of course BOB had NO idea) but he wasn't giving them sensitive info and things like that?
So, while I could see placing a dev above the law because he basically runs your business. . .I sure as hell can't see placing individual players above the law. Yet, that's exactly what CCP has done. They've decided that BOB members are more valuable to the game than their community's trust, ethics, or any sense of fair play. I mean, surely CCP is going to AT LEAST fine BOB for keeping those BPOs for MONTHS, right? Surely CCP is going to at least give back ASCN its territory, right? Yeah, I'll definitely hold my breath for that one! Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture! |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:27:00 -
[1594]
Originally by: Xoria Krint
Chill man. They are probably discussing on what to do. And how to go forward with this, It takes some time. Im just glad they don't rush it.
Uhm, they've had since last summer to handle it properly..If they have to take any matter of time NOW to figure out what to do then they're only thinking of how to cover up or give themselves plausible deniability as to the rest of it.. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Breed Love
FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:32:00 -
[1595]
Originally by: Nikali To be honest, I highly doubt whatever is said here, will matter. Nor will a large amount of accounts be cancelled, or whatnot. Sure, some people will quit, in a horrible, awful tizzy, and feel proud that they're not playing Eve anymore.
Y'know, as if Eve suddenly wasn't worth playing anymore. Because...someone got free stuff? If you're gonna quit, it's your loss. I will continue to pay CCP, and be the happy little peon that I am, because things like this can't ruin the game for me. Sure, it wasn't right. And sure, it sorta sucks. And sure, it might be some grand government conspiracy to steal my Twinkies or something.
But then again, I don't really care. CCP's CEO himself has posted his two bits, and that's as high as it goes. It don't get any higher than that. It's done. Whine all you like, I'm certain that the doors are shut and the presses have stopped printing, and we were lucky to get the words we did. Because to be quite honest, they didn't have to say one. Single. Word. The only thing CCP has to answer to is your monthly payments, and unless you're somehow scarred to the core because of this, I'm sure you're like me, and will continue to play right up until the devs are gatecamping Jita in titans. Which would do wonders for the traffic problem, let me tell you something.
So, while this is the finest fifty-three pages of steaming monkey-dung throwing meyham I have ever read, in my entire life...I don't think it really matters that much. Outrage, anger, horror, shock, tears, blood, and BoB...quite the roller coaster, but I'm more concerned with the almighty shamed conquerors coming and knocking on my door ingame. Sure, I might get blown up by a Sabre of questionable manufacture...but eh. I'm sure I'll find some way to move on in life, somehow.
Then again, that's apathy for you. Wish I could garner up the energy to care so much, but eh. So many more important things in life to worry about than who spawned what for who.
And by the way, if a guy loses his job over that, I'd be mighty disappointed. I imagine he's kicking himself in the butt over and over, wondering why he ever did it in the first place. If I were in his position, the guilt'd be a hundered times worse than any chewing out by my bosses. The disdain and pure, unmitigated hatred and contempt shown in this thread is rather potent. Don't envy him at all.
~Nik
qft, this post is brilliant.
Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!
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Danny Hawk
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:32:00 -
[1596]
Originally by: Halada If summing the facts up correctly:
- First, they tried to ignore the whole thing - Then they banned Kugu's 5 accounts, supposedly for EULA violations - They let Molle get away unbanned with posting his RL details. - They let Dianabolic get away unbanned with RL harrassment. - They tried to say the only issues were an event where they couldn't prove or deny the accusations now, plus the revealing of dev characters - so can we put this behind us now please. - They got themselves T20 as a sacrificial goat that acknowledged cheating, admitting about the illegal spawning of some third-world BPO's nobody cares about (that we already had proofs about). We are suppose to believe those were the only ones ?
After all that, people still believe CCP will act accordingly ? How many EULA violations do you think those DEVS committed? After this becomes a 100-pages thread, it will be locked, then deleted, and the forum mods will be ordered to take down any thread about this automatically, until people get tired of it.
Most people will keep playing, because what makes this game so great are the players. CCP will now forever have a stain on its reputation, and it will be EXTREMELY bad for their reputation in the business world. You think they'll be signing any significant contracts after EVE for other games or other projects? Nobody will want to work with a bunch of liars, they'll pay then.
Believe me no one will never forget this, but by judging at CCP's response to the whole thing (see above), it is fair to say they are not acting according to moral standards, but rather to protect their asses. So why bother talking about morality? They have shown on multiple occasions already they don't follow that path... Karma will be a ***** to them.
i think these points need addressing
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0ss0
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:34:00 -
[1597]
Really....All of you people who are screaming that the sky is falling?
Lighten up. It's a game....games have cheaters...99.99% of all games have a cheater in them. There is no tooth fairy, no santa clause.
Everyone who's freaked out over this?
Stand up...put your hands out to the side, close your eyes and click your heals three times while saying "there's no place like EVE!"
To all of you quiting please allow ccp to pool all of your isk and distribute it to the rest of us.
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Stealthy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:37:00 -
[1598]
lets see
i am so frustrated by the CCP culture on this scandal ie its OK for CCP staff and volunteers to take advantage of their status and insider knowledge to enrich themselves and their in game friends.
My corp was founded by eve beta testers who were senior leaders in our guild in Earth and Beyond-the only reason I didnt betatest was I lacked the funds for a big enough video card. I have served as a CSM rep during session 7. My corp was a founding corp to both CA and FA. When an outgoing CEO robbed corp of its BPOs, labslots, research office (back when slots cost 1000 isk), and bulk of corp stock, our corp created a sister corp which in Earth and Beyond was a major subdivision of the parent corp.
Accusations and instances like the shooting inside bubbles and nodes crashing in favor of one fleet, and whole variety of other odd situations arent uncommon.
Really burns my hide to have spent roughly $500 upgrading my box to better play eve and this **** goes down.
But this is how i am leaning -rather than log in to Eve for the rest of the weekend I am searching for another game to play. I spent 45 bucks a month on eve thats basically 1 new game a month or a deposit to my Xbox360 fund.
and Kieron you posts on our posts to dev response are insulting and beyond condesending.
One if you have employee involved in a fireable offense and he was! You get the CEO on the phone and he makes a decision PERIOD! your lame excuse he was already punished is UTTER bull****. What punishment? None is mentioned per other posted here he still has alts in RKK.
Two RKK members didnt know the BPOS were bad. lets call the BPO currency thats what a T2 BPO is a liscence to print isk. DO you think your government would care one IOTA that you didnt know the bills you deposited in your bank account were bogus? Hell no they would just seize them and you would be out the money.
Three
Dev involvement in corps
5 devs were in RKK was the quoted amt in the orginal allegations assuming this is true AND that bob has 3 other main corps each with 5 devs in them. Thats 20 devs in bob out of total employee base of 200 all of which are NOT devs. Thats 10% of your workforce and minimum of 1 was a director and ran their capital fleet command which inherently violated the EULA both as a leader of the command and as a director.
This is so beyond OBVIOUS the dev alone let alone as a group have too much influence on an alliance that everyone aggrees dominated the game and has power to influence game dynamic and it goes out of its way to do so.
Well I am off to troll the net for a new game as I dont see CCP taking this seriously at all
PS Is it refreshing not to have all the bob forums warriors silent for once?
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Gehlen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:38:00 -
[1599]
Money back for 6 months would be good. Reason: I didnt get the product I paid for.
Alternatively, free subscription for next 6 months. That would be fair.
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Syop
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:42:00 -
[1600]
Edited by: Syop on 10/02/2007 18:39:24
Originally by: 0ss0 Really....All of you people who are screaming that the sky is falling?
Lighten up. It's a game....games have cheaters...99.99% of all games have a cheater in them. There is no tooth fairy, no santa clause.
Everyone who's freaked out over this?
Stand up...put your hands out to the side, close your eyes and click your heals three times while saying "there's no place like EVE!"
To all of you quiting please allow ccp to pool all of your isk and distribute it to the rest of us.
Of course there is cheating in games. What counts is what is done about it. BoB abd CCP have been now caught twice with there hands in the cookie jar and again nothing happens unless of course your not in BoB in which case you get banned or edited.
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Slata Mechouia
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:43:00 -
[1601]
The worst thing in that story is that without kugutsmen we wouldn't know anything of all that. CCP wouldn't have deleted dev accounts and BPO would continue to spawn into BoB assets.It's a shame. Also it's clear that CCP gave us a list of the crappest BPOs that were given to BoB , we want the full list !
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:48:00 -
[1602]
Originally by: 0ss0 Really....All of you people who are screaming that the sky is falling?
Lighten up. It's a game....games have cheaters...99.99% of all games have a cheater in them. There is no tooth fairy, no santa clause.
Everyone who's freaked out over this?
Stand up...put your hands out to the side, close your eyes and click your heals three times while saying "there's no place like EVE!"
To all of you quiting please allow ccp to pool all of your isk and distribute it to the rest of us.
At the speed this is traveling thru eve You be lucky eve not shut down in a month. So no use collecting stuff for you.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:49:00 -
[1603]
I see the solution as simply getting rid of the lottery. I don't see why Tech2 BPO's can't be given out during an event(s).
As for this. It's a sad thing, but the real world has corruption so I take it as a step of realism to see people in power abuse it, just don't keep it up
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:51:00 -
[1604]
Originally by: 0ss0 Really....All of you people who are screaming that the sky is falling?
Lighten up. It's a game....games have cheaters...99.99% of all games have a cheater in them. There is no tooth fairy, no santa clause.
Everyone who's freaked out over this?
Stand up...put your hands out to the side, close your eyes and click your heals three times while saying "there's no place like EVE!"
To all of you quiting please allow ccp to pool all of your isk and distribute it to the rest of us.
so true but what matters is the reaction when caught there are so manny things that didnt get addressed in the past and evebn now
RA xploitin the plexes D2 xploitin a massage board Gooms with the client hack and the remedial ****** pic GM xploitin a radar site bob and their list of xploits thats just from top of my head (in an game with that massive lag im sure there is some duping) nothing is done ...
i really hope CCP will learn and enforce their rules now as fard as possible ban now and ask questions later !
this dosnt _______________________________________________
EVEpedia [Deutsch/German]
Say no to BMs
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:51:00 -
[1605]
Originally by: Slash Harnet I see the solution as simply getting rid of the lottery. I don't see why Tech2 BPO's can't be given out during an event(s).
As for this. It's a sad thing, but the real world has corruption so I take it as a step of realism to see people in power abuse it, just don't keep it up
Considering that the Events have been proven (and admitted) to have been leaked in the past (not to mention other shady happenings rather recently during an event) that would probably be worse than the lottery.. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:52:00 -
[1606]
Originally by: 0ss0 Really....All of you people who are screaming that the sky is falling?
Lighten up. It's a game....games have cheaters...99.99% of all games have a cheater in them. There is no tooth fairy, no santa clause.
Everyone who's freaked out over this?
Stand up...put your hands out to the side, close your eyes and click your heals three times while saying "there's no place like EVE!"
To all of you quiting please allow ccp to pool all of your isk and distribute it to the rest of us.
In most games, mind, the developers / administrators are the ones who bust cheaters. In most games, cheating = a lifetime ban (a friend of mine was prone to cheating at Counterstrike- lifetime Steam ban on his IP address and CD Key). In most games, if a developer was caught cheating, he'd be out on his arse before he knew what was going on.
CCP have handled this appaulingly.
What I gather so far:
* t20 cheated. He still works for CCP. His cheating as not un-done. He has not even been banned from playing (as would a player who had hacked the EVE database to spawn items- we'd be talking about a call-the-cops moment).
* Molle, DBP, and all sorts of other BoB members have miraculously dodged forums bans and EULA violations for all sorts of minor but still noteworthy, things.
* When people accused RA (and others) of cheating back months ago, it was completely allowed on the forums. Now, accusing BoB of cheating is apparently a forum-warning offense.
* The Dev answers to all these accusations have been vague and unsatisfying. What we've been told so far is "the whistle-blower was banned for entirely unrelated violations (although we can't tell you what), we knew about the cheating for 6 months (but didn't do anything about it), t20 has already been punished (although we can't tell you how) and we won't fire him (because that would be mean)." And you wonder why people are unhappy?
t20 should have a lifetime EVE ban, the same as any player who hacked the database in order to spawn items. He should probably be fired, for abusing his position. And CCP should be very careful about who te show favouratism to these days- stick to the letter of the EULA, and dont give us anything else to complain about. -----------------------------------------------
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:52:00 -
[1607]
The way this whole thing has been handled doesn't really make sense, and in the lack of disclosure from CCP about what exactly happened, I feel free to speculate...
**************
I suspect that the T2 BPOs might have been won by T20 during testing on Tranquility (ie, CCP was testing how the T2 lottery worked with various agents, RP amounts, etc.). The testing ended, T20 had won some BPOs. When he left RKK, the question arose--what do I do with these BPOs, can I just give them to my corp? Someone at CCP approved this idea, maybe not wanting to be bothered with re-inserting the BPOs into the lottery, and BoB got the BPOs.
**************
Pure speculation, but it would explain why T20 was not fired, why this matter was not reported, and why the BPOs remained with BoB until just now.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:57:00 -
[1608]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr The second group certainly seems to have more ammo on their side. Shady events, reports of GMs scouting moons in a system 24 hours before a wardec, BoB locking down a system right before an Event, allegations of gross misconduct that a dev knew about (Cynonet account sharing), the matter of DHB Preacher admitting to accepting the account of a friend (you can transfer CHARACTERS, but tranferring accounts is against the EULA), questionable placement of complexes and profitable loot drops in BoB space, BoB members going unpunished for various infractions while other people (no, not Kugutsman) have been banned/suspended/punished for far less (account sharing, Sir Molle giving out K's RL info *AND* making RL threats against him, allegations of BoB members profiting from a certain auction site, etc).
Most of these are things that have been witnessed and/or admitted to. There is at least some level of offered 'proof' to those claims. The rest are too convenient to be merely 'coincidental' after this current fiasco came to light.
This is important stuff that needs repeating.
CCP, the rest of these allegations can't be allowed to disappear without trace. You see the level of distrust that exists now?
BoB, you guys also need to answer these allegations if you want any chance of anyone ever respecting you again.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:57:00 -
[1609]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar The way this whole thing has been handled doesn't really make sense, and in the lack of disclosure from CCP about what exactly happened, I feel free to speculate...
**************
I suspect that the T2 BPOs might have been won by T20 during testing on Tranquility (ie, CCP was testing how the T2 lottery worked with various agents, RP amounts, etc.). The testing ended, T20 had won some BPOs. When he left RKK, the question arose--what do I do with these BPOs, can I just give them to my corp? Someone at CCP approved this idea, maybe not wanting to be bothered with re-inserting the BPOs into the lottery, and BoB got the BPOs.
**************
Pure speculation, but it would explain why T20 was not fired, why this matter was not reported, and why the BPOs remained with BoB until just now.
The only problem with your conjecture is that t20 admitted they were illegit.
Quote:
As you might have read and heard, there were recently some allegations posted regarding developer misconduct that basically come down to:
* Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have. * Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics. * Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players.
All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one. Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true. IÆm here, laying out the facts of what happened in June 2006 so this whole issue -- which jeopardized my colleagues, my company and our community -- can be put behind us, I hope for the better.
The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:
* Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint * Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Blueprint * Spike L Blueprint * Sabre Blueprint
Regrettably, my actions inevitably led to a shadow of suspicion being cast on a number of my co-workers, as well as Reikoku and Band of Brothers. I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing.
As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which IÆm truly sorry.
from t20's blog at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=424 =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:59:00 -
[1610]
Kugu - I don't really care for him, if he's a little hacker or some new age robin wood, I do care the double standards for banning from CCP, It looks like CCP has favourits.
BoB - 3 years of rumours, and all the chest beating, we're good, we're the best, etc... Guess you were, that happens when you have GOD powers and the I-WIN button.
t20 - looks more and more like an escape goat. Like someone would risk their job for some cheesy bpo's, it's not like BoB couldn't afford them already, even the sabre one.
Talking with older players we all have the same comments on the situation; "what's new?", always were rumours and suspicions, and we knew this was happening, tho we tried hard not to believe and trust ccp, now seems evidence has come to appear.
ps - this won't affect the general mission runner carebear as it does with the passionate players that been fighting bob forever. I hate exploits and such, but I think next time I see a bob bubble I'll start looking at crtl-q after.
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Gemmell
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:59:00 -
[1611]
ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section.
what more information do u need, oh, yea sorry , the DEV's wrote this, so hey, there immune
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:00:00 -
[1612]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar **************
I suspect that the T2 BPOs might have been won by T20 during testing on Tranquility (ie, CCP was testing how the T2 lottery worked with various agents, RP amounts, etc.). The testing ended, T20 had won some BPOs. When he left RKK, the question arose--what do I do with these BPOs, can I just give them to my corp? Someone at CCP approved this idea, maybe not wanting to be bothered with re-inserting the BPOs into the lottery, and BoB got the BPOs.
**************
I would hope that even CCP knows that it is a terrible idea to run tests on a live production environment. The entire reason SISI is kept around is to run tests such as these, so while its interesting to speculate, I'd be surprised if any tests such as these were ever performed on Tranquility.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:02:00 -
[1613]
Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 10/02/2007 19:01:54
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
The only problem with your conjecture is that t20 admitted they were illegit.
Quote:
Well, the way I described, the BPOs would illegitimate (ie, should not have been in the game), but someone higher than T20 approved giving them to BoB anyway. In this scenario, T20 is simply the fall guy.
I'm not saying this is what happened, but it seems to make more sense than him spawning some crappy BPOs for himself.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:04:00 -
[1614]
Originally by: Gemmell what more information do u need, oh, yea sorry , the DEV's wrote this, so hey, there immune
Here's the same section of the EULA with the reason why CCP is free to completely ignore the EULA as they see fit:
ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section.
However, just because the EULA gives them the legal option to ignore it if they want, that still doesn't make it a good idea to from a customer satisfaction point of view.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
ashher
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:07:00 -
[1615]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: 0ss0
CCP have handled this appaulingly.
What I gather so far:
* t20 cheated. He still works for CCP. His cheating as not un-done. He has not even been banned from playing (as would a player who had hacked the EVE database to spawn items- we'd be talking about a call-the-cops moment).
* Molle, DBP, and all sorts of other BoB members have miraculously dodged forums bans and EULA violations for all sorts of minor but still noteworthy, things.
* When people accused RA (and others) of cheating back months ago, it was completely allowed on the forums. Now, accusing BoB of cheating is apparently a forum-warning offense.
* The Dev answers to all these accusations have been vague and unsatisfying. What we've been told so far is "the whistle-blower was banned for entirely unrelated violations (although we can't tell you what), we knew about the cheating for 6 months (but didn't do anything about it), t20 has already been punished (although we can't tell you how) and we won't fire him (because that would be mean)." And you wonder why people are unhappy?
t20 should have a lifetime EVE ban, the same as any player who hacked the database in order to spawn items. He should probably be fired, for abusing his position. And CCP should be very careful about who te show favouratism to these days- stick to the letter of the EULA, and dont give us anything else to complain about.
Totally agree with this evaluation
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Highpriest Aden
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:08:00 -
[1616]
IMO this is like stealing. Honestly I dont care if the BPOs are returned or whatever, it's not the most expensive BPO's outthere, but it's cheating. A mistrust as big as this must be punished, and I really cant see anything less than a fireing of t20, and banning of all his carekters. I dislike if BoB is winning wars upon information they have been given from CCP. BoB is a exelent alliance, with a huge income, and a huge playerbase. We cannot punish them, since it wasent in their favor that t20 did as he did. Give the comunity what we want. release him from CCP's payrole. Thanks in adv.
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Joy Tung
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:10:00 -
[1617]
Edited by: Joy Tung on 10/02/2007 19:11:43 Hilmar ,
Your wrong, we wont be able to move forward until right has been done.
As you said ôUpon review I personally would have chosen to act differentlyö. You have the responsibility to the community to take action.
If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and this itÆs a terrible problem.
I know of some good friends that are leaving Eve (or have already biomassed their toons) because of an employee of yours.
Take the last step, or eve will never recover.
On these next actions, you hold the "fate of not only the credibility of your company but the future of eve. Does eve really need to end with a hand full of fanatics and wonnabobs?"
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Gemmell
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:11:00 -
[1618]
wasnt it BOB who won the 10 ship BPO's as well?
serious question, i vaigly remeber the lottery for em
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:12:00 -
[1619]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Slash Harnet I see the solution as simply getting rid of the lottery. I don't see why Tech2 BPO's can't be given out during an event(s).
As for this. It's a sad thing, but the real world has corruption so I take it as a step of realism to see people in power abuse it, just don't keep it up
Considering that the Events have been proven (and admitted) to have been leaked in the past (not to mention other shady happenings rather recently during an event) that would probably be worse than the lottery..
Meh, good point. Atleast people would know who got those BPO's though, no more shady business on their origin.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
James Snowscoran
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:19:00 -
[1620]
Epic thread.
I <3 BoB.
And somehow I feel the forum drama can best be summed up as this:
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE -----
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Steven McWayne
Gallente Decadence. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:22:00 -
[1621]
I want my money back.. why i'm paying for a game rl money where Devs and GM'S helps my enemies? I played a free mmorg before...some gms were corrupt there too but it was a free game and the staff didnt get money etc. But in eve i have to pay...~130Ç a year and i want F*cking fairplay from gm's who i pay their salary monthly!
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Budwagon
Stark Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:22:00 -
[1622]
Well I guess I have not missed any announcement.. Very sad about this. Girlfriend is smileing so big at the thought that this game is heading to the dumps.. Now she dont have to share time with the game
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Hagarr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:23:00 -
[1623]
This is complete speculation, but occurs to me that t20 might be a founder of CCP and own a chunk of the company. That and perhaps he is the only person that really know some area of the code may explain the behavior of CCP.
Just a thought.
In any case, I hope that the CCP leadership understands that they need to do more than they have. Their actions don't seem to have done much to restore faith in their company.
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Tomcatt
Amarr Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:25:00 -
[1624]
The CEO of CCP admits a Dev cheated. Said Dev is directed to post a BLOG renouncing his actions but telling us he acted alone without anyone elses knowledge. Kieron comes on here and states that "He's already been punished, we can't punish him again". So effectively the final results are this: 1) T20 keeps his job. 2) The BPO's are pulled 6 months too late and are to be re-seeded. 3) ?????
Other than admitting there was some wrong doing; nothing has happened except the removal of the BPO's. Sure, the Sabre BPO and Spike L BPO's are nice grabs, but the rest aren't as significant.
So, BoB lost 6 T2 BPOs. T20 kept his job. CCP is going to watchdog their devs more closely, and thats the end of it? Do you really expect us to be satisfied that this is the final resolution? CCP, you insult your communities intelligence.
Make this right, or you will lose in the end. Without trust a corporation (game or otherwise) that relies on the public to fund it is a lost venture. One sacrificial Dev (who isn't even fired) isn't going to cut it.
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OMG
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:27:00 -
[1625]
Originally by: Joy Tung Take the last step, or eve will never recover.
Yeah. The EVE servers will be closing tomorrow, for sure.
t20 didnt even HAVE to fess up. I hereby declare t20 as having bigger balls than ANYONE that posted here. If this happened to me, I would NEVER have made a public confession, looking at the horrible, spiteful, inhuman overreactions displayed in this thread. Hello, the guy CHEATED in a VIDEOGAME, OMG QUICK! TO THE END-OF-THE-WORLD MOBILE!
While bad that he is actually cheating while taking part in its development, it's NO DIFFERENT than anyone else cheating and being given the permaban boot. I sincerely doubt he's allowed to play EVE at all nowadays. The fact the guy is still working for CCP despite having lost his play characters demonstrates willpower, too.
Please note that I am in no way trying to argue what he did WASN'T wrong, but for the love of Jove, we are all HUMAN (although after this thread I have my doubts).
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Gehlen
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:28:00 -
[1626]
Edited by: Gehlen on 10/02/2007 19:25:17 I cant shake the feeling there's a lot of snigering going on in iceland right now.
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Gut Punch
Gallente The Revenant
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:29:00 -
[1627]
This whole thing REQUIRES CCP to do some serious clear cutting of anything looking funny in their orginization and BoB. Inaction or the lack of willingness to completely cut out everything that is diseased will only result in the continued growth and development of conspericy theories.
We NEED to know how many devs play in major corps and alliances. We NEED to know why the alligations against BoB (beyond t20) have yet to be addressed. We NEED to have the benifits of those who cheated taken from them. BPCs, Money, Items, and especially BoB's territory which they have earned with money they shouldn't have had in the first place. We NEED to know specifics, not general theories, on how CCP will prevent this from happening again. And finally, t20 needs to be looking for a job. An example must be made, especially because this is a CCP employee. Cheating smacktards must be expelled in any game.
As customers, we also must be willing to leave the game if CCP does not do what we ask. Otherwise the previous 59 pages of comments mean nothing. ---
Gut Punch The Revenant --- Playing as Caldari is EVE on Easy Mode... |
OmegaClone
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:30:00 -
[1628]
Originally by: Kurj Valdoria Wow. In the grand scheme of things that ammounts to seriously so little. Anyone demanding more or threatening to quit over this still feel free to contract your stuff to me.
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Torchic
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:32:00 -
[1629]
Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:32:00 -
[1630]
Originally by: Hagarr This is complete speculation, but occurs to me that t20 might be a founder of CCP and own a chunk of the company. That and perhaps he is the only person that really know some area of the code may explain the behavior of CCP.
Just a thought.
In any case, I hope that the CCP leadership understands that they need to do more than they have. Their actions don't seem to have done much to restore faith in their company.
Ya I guess it be hard to fire the boss if he does own part of the company. what if he does own some interest in ccp? Be our luck that he pulls out his backing and the game dies.
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Nel'Kar
Impulse.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:34:00 -
[1631]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen BoB - 3 years of rumours, and all the chest beating, we're good, we're the best, etc... Guess you were, that happens when you have GOD powers and the I-WIN button.
I've been skimming through bits of this thread and it seems like this is something that is a recurring complaint. I don't know about everyone else but I fail to see how BoB being handed some ammo BPO's gives them GOD powers and an I-WIN button. Seems like people are really stretching beyond the usual excuses of "BoB cheat" and taking these recent events as proof that BoB ships somehow have more HP or do more damage than everyone elses or something like that.
Anyways, it is very unfortunate that this happened and I sure hope it never happens again. It also makes me sad that there are so many people who demanded an answer to what went on, when CCP could have easily covered it up, they came forward and told us what happened, and now people are screaming "No that can't be true! BoB mustve been given way more this is all a cover up to something bigger!"
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Doc Lithius
Minmatar Golden Boys
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:34:00 -
[1632]
It took some time for this to settle with me. Neglecting the corp issue, I'd like to point out something that has to do with the gameplay itself. It'd be better if the only things that devs control are the npc's and never to be allowed to have their own player-controlled corps. Many of the people I've heard barking on this issue were just saying the day before that the storylines were forgotten and untimely updated.
With the new inhabitants of 0.0 being an NPC corp (Sansha's Nation - True power) a player is left to wonder "when will it be my time to inhabit 0.0 without a force that is unmatchable, cheating, and overall against what the game was made for?" The Players.
Why not give the Devs their characters in NPC form? You want the database to be edited to your liking? Make a character from scratch without having anything to stand in your way. The characters of player-controlled corps are not for the game creators if the result is the current problems. Try to understand that a fleet controlled by the devs would actually be a good thing if they were an NPC team of event-oriented ships that yeild faction loot.
With that said, I feel betrayed by the past months, but only hopeful now that there could be something more worthwhile than what would be the end result if devs continue to dabble in player-controlled corps. |
Joy Tung
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:37:00 -
[1633]
Its not the fact that this is a game, its down to respectability and credibility. at the moment T20 and CCP have none of these. How can a community ever respect a thief and a criminal (in game terms and in some countries RL). He used insider knowledge and ability to profit and give or gain power within the virtual word.
It may only be a game but I have the respect, for others that define me as a person. I hold these things dear to me and I would hope others do.
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:38:00 -
[1634]
Originally by: Torchic Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
OMG!! I never thought of that...Cheaters with tons of credit card and personal information that going to keep me a wake for days
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Savio
Caldari The Knights Of Camelot DeStInY.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:39:00 -
[1635]
Odd they dint fire that employ.. its cheating now matter how you turn it!
also how come bob hasent been punished by this? at least some isk should had been removed from them!
. Need a Sign? Click Here |
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:39:00 -
[1636]
Do you know what the most ironic thing is? Bob orginally named their alliance CCP. LOL ----
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Mollyanna
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:40:00 -
[1637]
FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly |
Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:40:00 -
[1638]
Trust has been shattered. CCP needs to earn it back.
Full or at least partial disclosure is the way to go.
If dev players aren't going to be publicly flagged as such, at least disclose the number of devs in each corporation. Include the number in the corp descriptions.
Or only allow devs to play in dev corps.
The more things are in the open, the less likely people are to cheat.
If devs want to control the most powerful corps/alliances in the game, fine, just be honest about it so the players know what they're dealing with.
My subscription has been canceled. I'll renew it when I feel like it. It's the only message we can send that will matter to them.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:41:00 -
[1639]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People screamed exodus at the 4S situation, and again at the cheating GM incident, those people are still here, you people will still be here. You know that what you've got is legit for your part, I know what I have is legit, if you feel BoB used such unfair things, then how will you feel if/when you beat them? Winning with the odds against you is always better than winning when they are in your favor.
The difference was that 4S got their name back and the GM was fired. No need to quit when it got a happy ending is it? But dont worry , I will be around. you'll never jump alone |
Ohmite
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:42:00 -
[1640]
Originally by: Nel'Kar
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen BoB - 3 years of rumours, and all the chest beating, we're good, we're the best, etc... Guess you were, that happens when you have GOD powers and the I-WIN button.
I've been skimming through bits of this thread and it seems like this is something that is a recurring complaint. I don't know about everyone else but I fail to see how BoB being handed some ammo BPO's gives them GOD powers and an I-WIN button. Seems like people are really stretching beyond the usual excuses of "BoB cheat" and taking these recent events as proof that BoB ships somehow have more HP or do more damage than everyone elses or something like that.
Anyways, it is very unfortunate that this happened and I sure hope it never happens again. It also makes me sad that there are so many people who demanded an answer to what went on, when CCP could have easily covered it up, they came forward and told us what happened, and now people are screaming "No that can't be true! BoB mustve been given way more this is all a cover up to something bigger!"
You really believe it is only about 6 BPOs you are very naive - that is the tip of the iceburg but presently all that has been officially admitted to, 60 pages about 6 bpos would show most of eve have a mentality of a 5 year old which some might think true but more likely people believe there is more to this than what has been declared
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:42:00 -
[1641]
Originally by: pumkinlumpkin
Originally by: Torchic Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
OMG!! I never thought of that...Cheaters with tons of credit card and personal information that going to keep me a wake for days
Hello Harris Interactive Inc.
that is what i said several times in that thread and ppl just ignored it
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Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:46:00 -
[1642]
At the software company I work for a Dev was recently discovered to have been creating license files on his computer and selling them on the side.
Guess what? He's not working with us anymore. ------------------- |
Frostbyt
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:50:00 -
[1643]
Originally by: Kerushi
Originally by: pumkinlumpkin
Originally by: Torchic Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
OMG!! I never thought of that...Cheaters with tons of credit card and personal information that going to keep me a wake for days
Wow, Guess I'm going to call american express and report my card as being compromised so that I can get new #'s and isolate myself from possible fraud - gee thanks alot CCP for further hassle |
Leggy Bare
Caldari Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:52:00 -
[1644]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Freaky Bare
If their country's laws are at all like those here in the U.S.A. - they CANNOT fire him. You simply CANNOT fire someone 6+ months after the offense is made known. I cannot imagine how he kept his job - but he did. Case closed.
Just as an FYI..
I live in Florida, USA and we are a "Right to work" state. That means I could fire you simply for wearing a blue shirt today or because I don't like your taste in music. Your only recourse is to file for unemployment while looking for a job.
That is true where I live as well. They would have to say 'we no longer require your services' and fire him tomorrow. In practice it is not this easy. I doubt many European countries have laws like this, however.
At any rate, my statement was that he can not be fired for THIS reason 6 months later. He should have been fired and they have damaged the company's (and the games) reputation enormously as a result of this mistake. *sigh* I AM an Alt. I am Freaky Bare's sexy sister. Contrary to Corpmembers opinion, I am NOT Freaky in drag. This forum hates Freaky Bare and does not like to allow him to post here. |
Mr Antisocial
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:52:00 -
[1645]
Well I've been logged into the game I've played for almost 4 years and haven't played almost at all in the past 24 hours. I've been trying to come to grips with what has transpired, what alligations are still out there that CCP hasn't talked about, and I find myself wondering why I play this game.
Is it because I enjoy it or is it something I've just gotten used to doing?
Over the years there has been several times in which foul play had been suspected but not proven and the answer from CCP was always the same. We've done some checking and we haven't seen any reason to believe foul play has occured. I always said to myself "I guess someone was just bitter at losing a fight."
Then this whole bag of worms that was pretty much proven comes to light and CCP comes forward 6 months afterward to say yes it was true, but only after the truth about the incident was leaked. Makes me wonder how many of the past incidents were actually true.
I've got 4 accounts and I'm trying to find a good reason to stay and I'm struggling to find a good reason. More than likely I will get rid of all my accounts and start playing something else. I have really enjoyed my time in eve and have alot of friends I'll be sorry to leave, but I'm very disappointed in this whole incident and what have been probably many more in the past.
For all of you that are staying I wish you luck with all your endeavors and I truly hope you all well. As far as my stuff is concerned when and if I do hit that stop payment button, the stuff will die with my character, I don't wish to instantly make someone else wealthy, do it on your own.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:53:00 -
[1646]
Originally by: OMG
Originally by: Joy Tung Take the last step, or eve will never recover.
Yeah. The EVE servers will be closing tomorrow, for sure.
t20 didnt even HAVE to fess up. I hereby declare t20 as having bigger balls than ANYONE that posted here. If this happened to me, I would NEVER have made a public confession, looking at the horrible, spiteful, inhuman overreactions displayed in this thread. Hello, the guy CHEATED in a VIDEOGAME, OMG QUICK! TO THE END-OF-THE-WORLD MOBILE!
While bad that he is actually cheating while taking part in its development, it's NO DIFFERENT than anyone else cheating and being given the permaban boot. I sincerely doubt he's allowed to play EVE at all nowadays. The fact the guy is still working for CCP despite having lost his play characters demonstrates willpower, too.
Please note that I am in no way trying to argue what he did WASN'T wrong, but for the love of Jove, we are all HUMAN (although after this thread I have my doubts).
It doesn't take balls to admit to something you were 'punished' for 6+ months ago.
Final Fantasy is a game. People don't have multiple copies of FF9 and play them side by side on multiple PS2s. People don't join TS/Vent channels over FF. Other than to look up walk throughs and/or cheats people don't really metagame over FF.
EVE is a hobby. However, people DO have multiple computers and multiple accounts with EVE. People join TS/Vent over EVE. They join and read various message boards over Eve.
People are much more passionate over hobbies than mere games.
Anyways, if cheating at a video game is such a non-issue then why is anyone ever banned? Why is the e-Baying of items/accounts frowned upon? Why are those people punished?
t20 aside, are you so quick to dismiss all the other allegations, collusion and other shady happenings? Why is it ok that 'mere mortals' are banned or punished in the game while BoB echelon aren't for the same violations? Violations that are proven and admitted to, mind you. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Ajaku
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 19:54:00 -
[1647]
I smell a cover up, six ammo BPOs, you have to be kidding? This is all to try and make us think they have really done something.
No one would risk their job for six crappy T2 ammo BPOs. Heck, if I got a T2 ammo BPO I would tell my agent to stuff it up her ass.
There is far more to this than meets the eye.
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Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.10 19:59:00 -
[1648]
Edited by: Yan Song on 10/02/2007 19:58:21 Edited by: Yan Song on 10/02/2007 19:57:30
Originally by: Noumena thank you...it takes a bigger man to admit his faults. my respect for ccp and ALL of its employees remain in the highest regard.
Just to clarify... For one to admit to admit their faults, it must be done without being forced to do so. This does not count. If I tell you you HAVE to fess up, that is not the same as you coming forward and letting people know what happened.
That boat passed over six months ago...
Quote: The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:00:00 -
[1649]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 10/02/2007 19:56:31 *wrong thread*
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Brunn
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:04:00 -
[1650]
although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:04:00 -
[1651]
What? only 10 more pages after I slept all night? You tin foil hat guys are slackers.. Or are getting tired of spouting the same paranoid delusions over and over.. Hmm.. Lets check TQ.. Oh dear.. 30000 online right this minute.. Guess the majority of eve players didnt quit after all..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Lomdok Ersenine
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:06:00 -
[1652]
Why not full disclosure? Why has it taken 7 months to get this out in public - surely senior management don't take 6 months summer vacation each year? Why, when it is fairly common practice to sack thieving employees has this one not suffered this fate? One wonders what it is CCP are committed to if they can't address the underlying suspicion that there is more to this than has been confessed to.
I am not a conspiracy theorist and don't give a hoot about Bob one way or another. But IRL I am in multinational business and find the lack of transparency and resistance to candour in the face of a scandal worrying.
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:07:00 -
[1653]
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
It's the weekend, dude. Cut them some slack. PR nightmare or no, they probably have families they want to go back to, and I don't begrudge them some R&R.
They'd better have something for us on Monday, that's all.
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Mah Kraah
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:08:00 -
[1654]
ok , a dev cheated in advantage of rkk-bob, fact. how ccp punish t20 is up to ccp and should not be our concern. what we should be concerned about is: how to restore game balance how to prevent this happening again
trust wont return bevore ccp adress this questions in detail
me not knowing to what degree a dev can influence the game i cant give any sugestion on the preventing stuff. i fully understand and suport hellmars stance that devs NEED to play the game to understand and develope it from the playerperspective. the accounts used for this purpose do NOT NEED ANY DEVTOOLs. review the devtools, are all features realy necesary? remove any feature that is not 100 % needed for the dev to do his job. any regular account would do the job better than. how can a dev get a idear of the players perspective if he use special tools to get what he want? dev in director position of a major force in the player-political-landscape? hell no!!! it would be a breach of the necesary neutrality in the player politicalballance of power. a dev can never be anything more than a temporary peon in such a corp-alliance to make shure that there is no markable influence. was just some things that came to my mind. ccp need to publish the rules and enforce them , we need to see them to judge if ccp does enough. restoring the game balance: we have prove of the illegal aquisition of bpoŠs and usage for 7 month, thats roughly 15 billion in this case-> remove this sum from RKK wallet. bob gained advantage in using the items produced by this illegal bpoŠs, such as won battles, difficult to judge and to name a isk sum, a isk fee would never be filling as reballancing--> take away one station from bob including all pos in this system to restore the situation bob may would be in without the dev help. bob won alot of things in events one can speculate that this was due to the devs hints and help--> review what bob got from events, including the tourney and remove 20% of it.
this penaltys will sum up to a verry high sum without making bob go bankrupt but would counter a fair bit of what bob may gained in unfair advantages.
in all that u should not forget what bob is and what it has done. its over 1000 powergaming veterans! the landscape would not look any different if they had no dev advantage. they are working realy hard to acomplish there goals and with the member base they have they archived there dominating position, the dev advantage is only a minor factor but still a factor. the reason why bob controles such large part of space is coz the other big forces allowed them to do so, looked the other way when they again saw a nice region and took it. the comunity allowed bob to take on any competitors one by one and now complaining about bob is so dominating. ascn fell coz the comunity allowed bob to dismantle them without disturbance. d2 and aaa sitting right at bobs borders and whatching the show instead of taking measures against the domination game bob was playing, just a example, one of many. dont go the easy way and blame others, bob was dominating coz YOU letted them, fact. besides that it would be just as unfair as the dev advantag to punish and reverse the work of 950 powergamers coz 50 did something wrong or knew that there was things done wrong. the anty bob+lv coalition is about to correct the political mistakes they have done in history, now only ccp need to correct there mistakes and eve will be again a challanging, competive and fair game we can all enjoy. ccp, the comunity now whait for ur move! hopefully it will be satisfying and we can get over this scandal, eve deserves it!!
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:12:00 -
[1655]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus What? only 10 more pages after I slept all night? You tin foil hat guys are slackers.. Or are getting tired of spouting the same paranoid delusions over and over.. Hmm.. Lets check TQ.. Oh dear.. 30000 online right this minute.. Guess the majority of eve players didnt quit after all..
post with ur dev account bodbit
accounts have play time as u don`t pay per minute, but as an alt user, that`s way out of ur league as u need atleast 1 IQ to understand
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:13:00 -
[1656]
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
60 pages of the same 40 people in it including me.. Ya thats a *huge* slice of the playerbase.. Or do you guys assume you speak for the entier playerbase?
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Soon Tzu
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:13:00 -
[1657]
Originally by: OMG
Originally by: Joy Tung Take the last step, or eve will never recover.
Yeah. The EVE servers will be closing tomorrow, for sure.
t20 didnt even HAVE to fess up. I hereby declare t20 as having bigger balls than ANYONE that posted here. If this happened to me, I would NEVER have made a public confession, looking at the horrible, spiteful, inhuman overreactions displayed in this thread. Hello, the guy CHEATED in a VIDEOGAME, OMG QUICK! TO THE END-OF-THE-WORLD MOBILE!
While bad that he is actually cheating while taking part in its development, it's NO DIFFERENT than anyone else cheating and being given the permaban boot. I sincerely doubt he's allowed to play EVE at all nowadays. The fact the guy is still working for CCP despite having lost his play characters demonstrates willpower, too.
Please note that I am in no way trying to argue what he did WASN'T wrong, but for the love of Jove, we are all HUMAN (although after this thread I have my doubts).
hear that suckage sound...its your lips on ccp butt (hi there BoB alt)
Dont get your hopes up to get some t2 bpo's...
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Celticjim
Minmatar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:14:00 -
[1658]
I've read pages 1-30, took a break, then read pages 59-60.
Although not happy with the current state of events, there are a few invariable truths which have to be acknowledged by us, the playerbase:
1. CCP is damned if they do, and damned if they did. CCP is in a business to make money. Their balancing act is how to admit something untoward happened, but not to an overriding detriment that their playerbase leaves in droves. Given the cirumstances, I believe this was the best course of action they could have taken. They admit wrong doing, the CEO states impropriety has occurred, and now it is up to us whether we stay or leave.
2. This one won't be popular. Although we do pay for the game, this does not give us the inalienable right to request all manners of information as it pertains to their business. It really doesn't. Again, this is up to us to determine if the actions taken are enough to satisfy us, or not. As a result, if they do, we continue, if not, then we leave. Really as simple as that.
3. Don't believe for a second that based upon the blogs, posts that we really have the full understanding of what is occurring behind the scenes. Based upon Hel's statement, I think much more is occurring behind the scenes to ensure this type of thing will not occur, or very tough to occur again. In true conspiracy theorist fashion, I do believe they found a little bit more, but it comes back to point 1, how much to admit before it jeopardizes their business?
4. The stretch that is currently being made to compare this to potential card fraud is kind of boggling. The risk here is no greater, or no less than any other place where we plunk our CC info be it web based, store based, or over the telephone. The fact of an admission of ingame advantage does not automatically preclude the chance of real fraud is that much more probable.
5. I purposely leave out the Alliance in question because the admission of impropriety of a dev who was part of the Alliance does its own damage.
Someone a few pages back wrote this is the end of it due to the statement of the CEO. I tend to agree. Not much more will come of it on a public front, although I believe corporately a few more changes will be, or have already occurred. The final decision is really now the players: If you're happy with the action taken, stay. If not, cancel the subscription, and actively show your displeasure.
Personally, going to stay. It's crappy this has happened, but the admission, and responses from CCP has left me with some hope things will change, and has helped to repair some of the trust I lost.
Regards CJ
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Syrin
SouthStar Business Solutions Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:14:00 -
[1659]
Originally by: Frostbyt
Originally by: Kerushi
Originally by: pumkinlumpkin
Originally by: Torchic Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
OMG!! I never thought of that...Cheaters with tons of credit card and personal information that going to keep me a wake for days
Wow, Guess I'm going to call american express and report my card as being compromised so that I can get new #'s and isolate myself from possible fraud - gee thanks alot CCP for further hassle
You do know that CCP dont actually have that info.. its held by a 3RD party billing provider who CCP deals with.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes - Devil ([email protected]) |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:14:00 -
[1660]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus What? only 10 more pages after I slept all night? You tin foil hat guys are slackers.. Or are getting tired of spouting the same paranoid delusions over and over.. Hmm.. Lets check TQ.. Oh dear.. 30000 online right this minute.. Guess the majority of eve players didnt quit after all..
A full night's sleep and you still don't get it.
It's not about the BPOs, it's not about t20s confession, it's not even really about how CCP didn't fire t20 when they found out. It's about Trust.
We only know about these things becuase someone forced this into the light.
What are the things we don't know about? It could be nothing. It could be more. It probably is nothing. But, how can we trust from t20 that what he said he did is all he did? How can we trust CCP that they won't let this happen again. They didn't take the BPOs away for 8 months, dude. They KNEW about this and did nothing, said nothing, changed nothing for 8 months, UNTIL they were forced to do so. They made no attempt to do the right thing, how can we trust them to do so again.
PS: have some respect and post with your main.
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Brunn
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:15:00 -
[1661]
Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
It's the weekend, dude. Cut them some slack. PR nightmare or no, they probably have families they want to go back to, and I don't begrudge them some R&R.
They'd better have something for us on Monday, that's all.
well in my job if we have a major problem that affect so many customers we normaly say goodbye to the family for the weekend, otherwise we would be facing layoffs because nowadays what is important is money and if ur money-making bussiness is having a problem u put it above anything else.
its better to stay away from the family one weekend than having to look for a new job...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:15:00 -
[1662]
Originally by: Kerushi accounts have play time as u don`t pay per minute, but as an alt user, that`s way out of ur league as u need atleast 1 IQ to understand
Actually I'm enjoying the psychological study aspect of it.. This is a rare opportunity to get this many paranoid people in the same place at once and observe symtoms and conditions..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:16:00 -
[1663]
Why are the Eula violation of bob directors treated differantly to any other player.
This whole thing stinks to high heaven of favouritism,double standards and coverups.
CCP get you act togeather and fast before this great game goes down the plughole.
This is a major crises and what do you ccp do, take the weekend off. If i owned a company and had they type of stuff going on. i would make all staff come in and sort this out or risk losing there job.
But typical ccp they waited 6 month to reveal there coverup, so what is another 2 days. This speaks volumes of how seriously they are taking this.
Dont expect any truthful answers soon.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:18:00 -
[1664]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Lets check TQ.. Oh dear.. 30000 online right this minute.. Guess the majority of eve players didnt quit after all..
This is a common fallacy I see repeated in every MMORPG. It can take up to 30 days for people who have already cancelled to not be able to log in anymore. Some people are waiting until Monday to see what (if any) more CCP will say/do. Some people have already cancelled are are logging in to 'see to their affairs' by selling off items and/or give their stuff away.
The true measure of how little or how much damage has been done won't be seen for at least a month. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Ilea Celentay
Veiled Justice
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:18:00 -
[1665]
I'm saddened by the fact that a Dev felt he had to cheat to keep ahead in Eve. I'm sad not because CCP let me down, covered it up, or because it made BOB oh so powerful.
I'm sad simply because I can't understand why as a Dev of such an amazing game you would want to cheat at all, the beautify of Eve is the challenge and the loss, so far as I am concerned.
This is your game, and you help to make it what it is as much as we do. Cheaters never prosper.
t20 has been punished, not only internally but in the amount of respect he has lost from the 100k subscribers of Eve. IMO that punishment enough.
Eve is an amazing game. Like CCP has said, its time to move on, and lets not forget that the Devs have a right to play Eve in the same way we do. Not only as Devs.
I say, finally, well done CCP, you can't please everyone, but you have done your best.
I'll not be leaving over something as simple as this, fly safe.
Faction Ship Info || Rig Factory |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:18:00 -
[1666]
Originally by: aggro CCP get you act togeather and fast before this great game goes down the plughole.
This has *GOT* to be the most repeated phrase in all the history of the eve forums..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:19:00 -
[1667]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Kerushi accounts have play time as u don`t pay per minute, but as an alt user, that`s way out of ur league as u need atleast 1 IQ to understand
Actually I'm enjoying the psychological study aspect of it.. This is a rare opportunity to get this many paranoid people in the same place at once and observe symtoms and conditions..
You can't claim paranoia anymore. Accusations that were made have, in part, borne out to be true.
What's the likely reality? That the logs provided were exactly correct on identifying the dev that cheated and the bpos he gave away and everything else is bull****? OR that many of the other accusations from the logs are as accurate as the one's that CCP and T20 have admitted to being true?
Occam's Razor, dude.
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Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:19:00 -
[1668]
just got a warning from the mods saying that the mods are biased like ccp, funny thing is:
"We respect your right to privacy"
wich was breached with Harris interactive inc. was was breached by several ppl by posting RL info on these forums(ex. Molle)
u get a forum ban for saying basicly nothing but u don`t get banned with RL detail sharing
and yes, this warning was gotten intentionally specially for this thread, like i could give a flying **** for a warning, i`ll just add them to the Harris lawsuit with the rest of the crap
oh, do i win another empty threath?
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:20:00 -
[1669]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
60 pages of the same 40 people in it including me.. Ya thats a *huge* slice of the playerbase.. Or do you guys assume you speak for the entier playerbase?
Last night a search on yahoo for "EVE online dev misconduct" returned 1510 results. Today, 12 hours later, the same search returns 1970 results. I'd say the scope of this this is just slightly beyond this message thread. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Alastorr Frost
Minmatar STK Scientific INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:21:00 -
[1670]
Originally by: Celticjim I've read pages 1-30, took a break, then read pages 59-60.
Although not happy with the current state of events, there are a few invariable truths which have to be acknowledged by us, the playerbase:
1. CCP is damned if they do, and damned if they did. CCP is in a business to make money. Their balancing act is how to admit something untoward happened, but not to an overriding detriment that their playerbase leaves in droves. Given the cirumstances, I believe this was the best course of action they could have taken. They admit wrong doing, the CEO states impropriety has occurred, and now it is up to us whether we stay or leave.
2. This one won't be popular. Although we do pay for the game, this does not give us the inalienable right to request all manners of information as it pertains to their business. It really doesn't. Again, this is up to us to determine if the actions taken are enough to satisfy us, or not. As a result, if they do, we continue, if not, then we leave. Really as simple as that.
3. Don't believe for a second that based upon the blogs, posts that we really have the full understanding of what is occurring behind the scenes. Based upon Hel's statement, I think much more is occurring behind the scenes to ensure this type of thing will not occur, or very tough to occur again. In true conspiracy theorist fashion, I do believe they found a little bit more, but it comes back to point 1, how much to admit before it jeopardizes their business?
4. The stretch that is currently being made to compare this to potential card fraud is kind of boggling. The risk here is no greater, or no less than any other place where we plunk our CC info be it web based, store based, or over the telephone. The fact of an admission of ingame advantage does not automatically preclude the chance of real fraud is that much more probable.
5. I purposely leave out the Alliance in question because the admission of impropriety of a dev who was part of the Alliance does its own damage.
Someone a few pages back wrote this is the end of it due to the statement of the CEO. I tend to agree. Not much more will come of it on a public front, although I believe corporately a few more changes will be, or have already occurred. The final decision is really now the players: If you're happy with the action taken, stay. If not, cancel the subscription, and actively show your displeasure.
Personally, going to stay. It's crappy this has happened, but the admission, and responses from CCP has left me with some hope things will change, and has helped to repair some of the trust I lost.
Regards CJ
QFT
I for one will be staying to see what happens. Good post CJ
Regards,
Frosty
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:22:00 -
[1671]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
60 pages of the same 40 people in it including me.. Ya thats a *huge* slice of the playerbase.. Or do you guys assume you speak for the entier playerbase?
Last night a search on yahoo for "EVE online dev misconduct" returned 1510 results. Today, 12 hours later, the same search returns 1970 results. I'd say the scope of this this is just slightly beyond this message thread.
QFT
All explosions start with a very small reaction.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:23:00 -
[1672]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 10/02/2007 20:20:16 Dear CCP,
You have a credibility problem that needs to be fixed. Below are what I consider reasonable steps you need to take to assure your customers that your product is as advertised. Note that I do not make threats such as "do this or I cancel my subscription". However, I do not trust that the product is as advertised and as a customer, need to see action. There is a fly in my soup, I need to be assured that the fly was not in the kitchen, show me the soup pot. If you want me to trust you, then you must trust me, the time for blind trust has come and gone.
1. All petitions, their response, times, the GM name, the GMs main characters and alts need to be public and live in real time.
2. All GM, dev characters, Aurora, ISD, Bea tester, any character that is not a regular paying customer, needs to be easily identifiable. The character info sheet (of all characters affiliated with the player, regardless of the number of accounts involved) needs to include the following, clear indication that this character is affiliated with CCP and its role (ISD/Dev/GM, etc). The location of the character (system name). The type of ship the character is flying and its modules. And any other characters affiliated/accessible by this player.
3. Any Forum or game bans need to be made public. The reasons for the ban, and the evidence for the judgment must be made public and available in real time.
4. Public Notification of all events two weeks before they happen. Location, time, who, what, why, where and when must be published. Access to the solar system must be provided for all players that is 100% safe or run the event in high sec.
All of these suggestions are aimed at one thing, removing the chance for perceived impropriety to exist. From this point forward, GM rulings or delays, fleet battles, "lucky" shots, node crashes, mysterious log offs, macro miners that have been around forever, etc, are going to be "your fault". Not because they are your fault, but because your customers can no longer trust the environment. It is your responsibility to assure your customers your product is what you claim it to be. The implicit trust between customer and seller has been breached, the burden does not rest upon the customer to resolve this, It rests upon you.
Will implementing the suggestions cost you some money? Yep. Will loosing the trust of your customers cost you money? Yep. It's up to you which direction those looses go, to improving your product and making an effort to restore trust, or to hope that lost Good Will returns based upon your past history.
-AS |
el toppolino
Caldari Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:25:00 -
[1673]
here is the deal: we had EVE-boycots already for less important reasons (corp name banning). CCC changed its mind before the boycot got active.
it is known EVE controls itself to a ccertain point. why stop playing a game you like ?! take it in your own hands and force little CCP to hear the community.
my first idea would be if the community doesnt get heard we make jita a warzone and kill concord. laugh but thats how it works. done before and will work again. we are EVE not CCP simply as that
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fotografia
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 20:26:00 -
[1674]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Kerushi accounts have play time as u don`t pay per minute, but as an alt user, that`s way out of ur league as u need atleast 1 IQ to understand
Actually I'm enjoying the psychological study aspect of it.. This is a rare opportunity to get this many paranoid people in the same place at once and observe symtoms and conditions..
the only reason i can possible imagine for u to be making fun of this subject is that u want it to be swept under the rug... ...maybe u have also something to hide...
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Luna Liandri
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:28:00 -
[1675]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 10/02/2007 20:20:16 Dear CCP,
You have a credibility problem that needs to be fixed. Below are what I consider reasonable steps you need to take to assure your customers that your product is as advertised. Note that I do not make threats such as "do this or I cancel my subscription". However, I do not trust that the product is as advertised and as a customer, need to see action. There is a fly in my soup, I need to be assured that the fly was not in the kitchen, show me the soup pot. If you want me to trust you, then you must trust me, the time for blind trust has come and gone.
1. All petitions, their response, times, the GM name, the GMs main characters and alts need to be public and live in real time.
2. All GM, dev characters, Aurora, ISD, Bea tester, any character that is not a regular paying customer, needs to be easily identifiable. The character info sheet (of all characters affiliated with the player, regardless of the number of accounts involved) needs to include the following, clear indication that this character is affiliated with CCP and its role (ISD/Dev/GM, etc). The location of the character (system name). The type of ship the character is flying and its modules. And any other characters affiliated/accessible by this player.
3. Any Forum or game bans need to be made public. The reasons for the ban, and the evidence for the judgment must be made public and available in real time.
4. Public Notification of all events two weeks before they happen. Location, time, who, what, why, where and when must be published. Access to the solar system must be provided for all players that is 100% safe or run the event in high sec.
All of these suggestions are aimed at one thing, removing the chance for perceived impropriety to exist. From this point forward, GM rulings or delays, fleet battles, "lucky" shots, node crashes, mysterious log offs, macro miners that have been around forever, etc, are going to be "your fault". Not because they are your fault, but because your customers can no longer trust the environment. It is your responsibility to assure your customers your product is what you claim it to be. The implicit trust between customer and seller has been breached, the burden does not rest upon the customer to resolve this, It rests upon you.
Will implementing the suggestions cost you some money? Yep. Will loosing the trust of your customers cost you money? Yep. It's up to you which direction those looses go, to improving your product and making an effort to restore trust, or to hope that lost Good Will returns based upon your past history.
i like that, QFT.
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karumba
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:30:00 -
[1676]
Edited by: karumba on 10/02/2007 20:27:16 <-- senior player, almost 3 years in game.
I hate spies, but I heat cheaters even more.
Shame on CCP! I canceled my 2nd account. You are not worth my money.
DEVs belong on the test server not in game.
Can someone make a sig that describes my feelings?
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Eclipsen413
Gallente The Last Ravens
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:31:00 -
[1677]
i dont think someone should lose their job over a video game, and from what ive been told, devs been helpin bob since bob was made
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N cognito
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:31:00 -
[1678]
I wish i could wave the magic wand and get my POS back :( but i can't, as opposed to getting payed to play eve, i pay to play eve. I will be watching CCP like a hawk from now on.
PS, the word circulates online, not so much in the forums, EVERYONE knows what has transpired here, and it is very disconcerting to all of us, especially the non-pirates who work hard for their meager isk.
As well id like to say 'PLEA BARGAIN' there is no way that the list of copied BPO's T20 admitted to are the only ones that were falsified.
CCP, can you guys add some story line into Eve about the BOB leader committing suicide and forcibly disbanding the alliance? It might make all of us lowly players a bit less 'on edge'.
Any way good luck, and DON'T LIE!!
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markulem
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:33:00 -
[1679]
CCP is a multi-million dollar company go start act like one!
do you think anyone is going to get a future ccp game if you cheat like this?
makes me sick.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:33:00 -
[1680]
Ok I see the paranoia train is on the tracks again and its only getting more interesting.. Guess I'll just kick back and observe until this is all forgotten in short order.. As things like this always are.. But plz continue posting your opinions though so I can get a larger profile sample..
Enjoy the Conspiracy of the Month and keep a roll of reynolds wrap handy.. \o
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
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el toppolino
Caldari Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:33:00 -
[1681]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 i dont think someone should lose their job over a video game, and from what ive been told, devs been helpin bob since bob was made
mate you play a game you pay for and CCP doesnt make the game to play it..they make cash with it not ISK. get out of game and think RL !!
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Savio
Caldari The Knights Of Camelot DeStInY.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:34:00 -
[1682]
the only thing i think is odd in this is.. Why hasent he ben fired? they said it them self.. "nomaly u get fired" how come they dident fire him?
How come players that cheat get banned, how come other devŠs that cheat got fired (if there ever was any??) how come they dident do that to him?
everyone should get the same punishment for the same crime!... and its here CCP has lost my fait...
. Need a Sign? Click Here |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:34:00 -
[1683]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Kerushi accounts have play time as u don`t pay per minute, but as an alt user, that`s way out of ur league as u need atleast 1 IQ to understand
Actually I'm enjoying the psychological study aspect of it.. This is a rare opportunity to get this many paranoid people in the same place at once and observe symtoms and conditions..
and for us to see a troll work as hard as he can...
(hi there BoB alt, sorry but no t2 bpo will be coming your way for sucking up...or maybe it will, based on the history ccp has shown...)
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:35:00 -
[1684]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 i dont think someone should lose their job over a video game, and from what ive been told, devs been helpin bob since bob was made
t20 job IS a videogame...
anyway i dont think he will lose his job even if CCP tells us so...
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:36:00 -
[1685]
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
/bow.
Take a good look at that post, Hellmar, and you'll begin to realize how little your development staff truly shares our "frustrations, joys, successes and failures."
Do you all even know the EVE you are developing anymore? Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Kerushi
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:36:00 -
[1686]
Originally by: Brunn
Originally by: Eclipsen413 i dont think someone should lose their job over a video game, and from what ive been told, devs been helpin bob since bob was made
t20 job IS a videogame...
anyway i dont think he will lose his job even if CCP tells us so...
if they`d say he got fired, they`ll just rename his char and make him act like a n00b so ppl buy that the position has been filled
what`s new?
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Eclipsen413
Gallente The Last Ravens
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:37:00 -
[1687]
this is silly, if i stacked a box wrong at my store should i be fired?
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:37:00 -
[1688]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Ok I see the paranoia train is on the tracks again and its only getting more interesting.. Guess I'll just kick back and observe until this is all forgotten in short order.. As things like this always are.. But plz continue posting your opinions though so I can get a larger profile sample..
Enjoy the Conspiracy of the Month and keep a roll of reynolds wrap handy.. \o
hey mom, look at the troll!
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Secretary
Bargain consumables
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:38:00 -
[1689]
LoLs @ everyone calling for t20 to be fired.
Everyone say hi to the new dev : 02t, he's joining ccp to take over t20s role within the dev team. Thanks for your patience and understanding regarding this issue we hope to now continue taking your money and cheating for our ingame friends.
I am an alt.
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Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:40:00 -
[1690]
Edited by: Poolpy on 10/02/2007 20:42:32
Originally by: Eclipsen413 this is silly, if i stacked a box wrong at my store should i be fired?
wrong example, because stacking a box wrong, it's not a grave error that can put your business in a bad light, k?
Check how many news site/forum have relayed the fact that a employee of CCP cheat...
Ps. terminated my account, 27.12.2007, I hope that ccp will change in the meantime, tick tock....
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:42:00 -
[1691]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 this is silly, if i stacked a box wrong at my store should i be fired?
If that box somehow caused someone else a big enough loss I bet you would be. (ie all of these PoS "bugs" that allowed BoB to do amazing things no one else could)
If you put a bunch of stolen goods in that box I get you would be. (ie stolen BPOs given to BoB)
If that box had some form of visible writing on it (perhaps "I hate *******") that caused a huge financial loss to your store I bet you would be. (ie even if only 100 accounts were cancelled from this that's still close to $1500 monthly in lost revenue not to mention the incalculable lost income from people who were going to sign up but won't after hearing about this). =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:42:00 -
[1692]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 this is silly, if i stacked a box wrong at my store should i be fired?
omg, who let you out without your helmet on, you poor soft skulled thing...mommy will explain later what cheating means and how it is wrong, mmmkay?
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Mayoz Miner
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:44:00 -
[1693]
Originally by: Torchic Food for thought here kids:
If CCP is so willing to lie to us, hide these things etc. HOW SAFE IS YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION? really, think long and hard next time you re-up your subscription.
Yes, this is the tip of the iceberg, that can not be denied. Yes, Kug is like the Jesus of Eve - He died for BoD's sins :(
This is a valid point if CCP has people willing to cheat and possibly make cash back handers ? Its not just you CC info either your other personal info like real name and addrress how much would they sell that to someone you ****** off ingame ?
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Maud
Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:44:00 -
[1694]
Sadly T20 is the visible tip of the iceberg.
There have been way too many allegations and coverups all seemingly involving BOB and 'Illegal' Dev activity. CCP Have Persistently added insult to injury by their consistent removal of Thread topics and blatant denial of facts. The very fact that the EVE community has to gather little pieces of evidence to disclose these Events is a rediculouse state of affairs in the first place. The fact that I amongst others failed to take the issue seriously along with CCP's culpability makes me want to kick myself for wasting the many hours trying to achieve the impossible. As I used to explain when I used to run the JQA 'IT IS NOT WHAT YOU DO IT IS WHAT YOU ARE SEEN TO BE DOING THAT COUNTS' AND GOD FORBID PEOPLE FINDING OUT WHAT YOU ARE REALY DOING' well it looks like people have finally found out......some damn good explaining to do me thinks.
After 4 years I have just terminated my subscription, my alt accounts too and my family who also play eve will also not find my credit card accepting any CCP payments (7 accounts in all) for which i am truely sorry about as some of them have played for over 2 years now too.
At least the lag in Jita may be aleviated but i'm real glad I don't have shares in CCP at the moment. IT will take a Titanic change in CCP's Policys to put right the wrongs and make me reconsider playing eve again. I still have some subscription to work through so ill be about for a little while CCP please put it right as i love the game butas others have said the clocks ticking.... TICK TOCK.
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Eclipsen413
Gallente The Last Ravens
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:45:00 -
[1695]
man there is no telling you people, DEVS HAVE BEEN HELPING EVERYONE SINCE EVE STARTED, even though its mostly bob. and now when evidence comes through, OMG LETS FIRE TEH CHEATER!! ZOMGWTFBBQ
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Siliya
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:46:00 -
[1696]
this is Sad .... I think I am seeing the Emergence of SoE 2 in the eyes of the Community
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:47:00 -
[1697]
Kudos for the CEO to make a public announcement, a lot of people in his position would delegate it to an underling. Let us hope that Eve is going to go the way of SWG, after SOE ceo made a comment. More information really is needed, to satisfy people.
One more note. BoB just had a sizable chunk of there senior leadership forcibly removed. Kick em when they are down I say!
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:48:00 -
[1698]
I lied.. *one* more post..
Originally by: Soon Tzu hey mom, look at the troll!
Says Soon Tzu as he tightens his grip on mummys hand in front of the carnival mirror..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
el toppolino
Caldari Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:49:00 -
[1699]
omg stop that bs. "mummy the game is **** the devs cheat"
running away..feeling so small again ?
you are eve !! change it you whiners.
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Hurtt
Amarr Digital Foundry
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:50:00 -
[1700]
This is much worse than anything SOE did. Say what you will about them...at least they had some integrity and swift justice.
There was one top guild on my server that was exploiting a boss encounter. The guild was disbanded due to the impropriety. |
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Ash Donai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:51:00 -
[1701]
Edited by: Ash Donai on 10/02/2007 20:50:24
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus What? only 10 more pages after I slept all night? You tin foil hat guys are slackers.. Or are getting tired of spouting the same paranoid delusions over and over.. Hmm.. Lets check TQ.. Oh dear.. 30000 online right this minute.. Guess the majority of eve players didnt quit after all..
That's because the majority of EVE players doesn't even know this is happening. This thread is neatly tucked away in the Information Portal, which is an area that is by default only visited by a small fraction of the EVE-O visitors.
Any attempt to point to this thread from any other highly frequented forum (i.e. EVE General) will be locked by the minions with reference that there is already a thread about it on these forums. Curiously enough they don't lock threads where people ask for the 492641439846928314 time how to fit a level 4 Raven.
In publically held companies there is the principle of "full disclosure". If things screw up, then the company notifies all of its customers of the situation. CCP has a very easy way to do so by sending an EVE mail to all customers linking to this thread, or by sending a real email to all customers.
They won't do that because if they would, then there would be a real ****strom what will make this current thread pale in comparison.
The integrity of the company and the customers trust was compromised. The solution was a slap on the wrist and everything went back to business as usual. You be the judge as to how many customers would find that acceptable if they knew about the situation.
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:53:00 -
[1702]
Originally by: Savio the only thing i think is odd in this is.. Why hasent he ben fired? they said it them self.. "nomaly u get fired" how come they dident fire him?
Considering the Billboards debacle, he's probably the only person at CCP who knows how the UI code works. A few people said he helped design the T2 BPO lottery, which suggests he may be the only person who knows how that works too. Maybe they can't afford to fire him, yet.
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
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Posted - 2007.02.10 20:54:00 -
[1703]
just a quick one that will get no responses no doubt, but. in world war to many things happend in germany and other parts of europe and the rest of the world, when held acountable many years later in all cases were the defendant said "i didnt know" or "i was just following orders" didnt hold up and they were sentenced like the rest, now been a rpg and modeling its self on rl in some way. does this make you less acountable? or should the **** solier be let off in stead aswell? i would like a response on this bov alts Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:00:00 -
[1704]
Its a shame...big shame
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All
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:01:00 -
[1705]
Edited by: All on 10/02/2007 21:03:15 Please do not discuss moderation on the forums.Email [email protected] Thanks.Laurelin did the moment i got the email and sent a reply asking for explanation
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Lorth
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:04:00 -
[1706]
At least they told us, I suppose.
It would have been easy to simply have said "Yes there were DEV's in BOB, no they did not cheat, they BPO's were legit" As there was nothing to prove other wise, the only thing we knew for sure was that there were DEV's in BOB, and nothing else really.
Its still pretty digusting though.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:04:00 -
[1707]
Originally by: maximus babbarus snip
Umm, I know I don't win prizes for being the most rational poster on here , but this is taking it too far dude.
Don't bring that into it. Jokes about fighting the Russians in the Winter, sure, but not this. Stay clear of that please.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Marachus
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:08:00 -
[1708]
Originally by: Ash Donai Edited by: Ash Donai on 10/02/2007 20:50:24 That's because the majority of EVE players doesn't even know this is happening. This thread is neatly tucked away in the Information Portal, which is an area that is by default only visited by a small fraction of the EVE-O visitors.
Any attempt to point to this thread from any other highly frequented forum (i.e. EVE General) will be locked by the minions with reference that there is already a thread about it on these forums. Curiously enough they don't lock threads where people ask for the 492641439846928314 time how to fit a level 4 Raven.
In publically held companies there is the principle of "full disclosure". If things screw up, then the company notifies all of its customers of the situation. CCP has a very easy way to do so by sending an EVE mail to all customers linking to this thread, or by sending a real email to all customers.
They won't do that because if they would, then there would be a real ****strom what will make this current thread pale in comparison.
The integrity of the company and the customers trust was compromised. The solution was a slap on the wrist and everything went back to business as usual. You be the judge as to how many customers would find that acceptable if they knew about the situation.
Perhaps not, but it is getting linked by a lot of major gaming sites. Slashdot, Voodoo Extreme, ShackNews, and probably others but I dont feel like looking. Just those three is a significant amount of exposure.
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:08:00 -
[1709]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Ok I see the paranoia train is on the tracks again and its only getting more interesting.. Guess I'll just kick back and observe until this is all forgotten in short order.. As things like this always are.. But plz continue posting your opinions though so I can get a larger profile sample..
Enjoy the Conspiracy of the Month and keep a roll of reynolds wrap handy.. \o
Keep wishing it, Dreddy. The fact that you're trying your best to chuckle and wink at the posters in the hopes that this will be forgotten just proves how big of a deal it is. Maybe Bluesnews, Shacknews, or IGN will quote one of your posts as an example of 'One of the EVE players in the vanishingly small minority of opinion on this issue.' ;)
Count me in as yet another person who isn't satisfied with CCP's response on this issue. I'm particularly looking forward to those IRC interviews where channel members get to queue up for questions. You think t20 will ever be able to hold one of those without having a freakout moment?
The 'They'll just forget about it' strategy is going to fail, until people refer to BoB in past tense only. What, you think in 6 months players will honestly say 'What? There was a cheating scandal among the devs? Why, I forgot all about this!' Even among players who continue to play, it's going to stay in their minds. The reputation of the alliances and corps involved will never recover. Want a great comparison?
Pete Rose.
Loved by many. Still loved even after his scandal. But it's been how many years now since it happened - and have people forgotten his single event of cheating and instead talk about his brilliant baseball career? When people hear the name Pete Rose, is their first response, 'Oh, wasn't he that great baseball player?' Or is it 'Oh, wasn't he that guy who got busted for gambling?'
t20 = Pete Rose BoB = Pete Rose CCP = Probably Pete Rose unless they provide a better response than this 'Let's all just forget this, shall we?' PR move they're attempting.
t20 and BoB's reps are hosed. CCP's can be salvaged by taking steps to prove they're serious about eliminating this kind of in-game corruption. I won't even suggest what steps they should take - let them figure it out. But, 'Devs will always play the game' and 'We will limit all conversation about this to a single thread and wipe any posts or threads that reference it in any other way' will not work. It'll just up the ante to 'If you catch a dev cheating, better make a website devoted to it, because otherwise they're going to ban your account and try to snuff out all talk of it before it's exposed.' |
Lady Galadriel
Thief Hunters of Orion's Alliance Safe And Fun Environment
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:14:00 -
[1710]
Pete Rose ... who is he.. cant find that player in game..
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:15:00 -
[1711]
Originally by: All Edited by: All on 10/02/2007 21:05:41 Edited by: All on 10/02/2007 21:03:15 Please do not discuss moderation on the forums.Email [email protected] Thanks.Laurelin did the moment i got the email and sent a reply asking for explanation still waiting for an explanation...
and i`m still waiting for an explanation...
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:16:00 -
[1712]
Originally by: Lady Galadriel Pete Rose ... who is he.. cant find that player in game..
I'm not sure, CCP won't tell us who t20's newest character is. ;)
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Mariko San
Saints Surrounded
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:20:00 -
[1713]
Originally by: Audri Fisher One more note. BoB just had a sizable chunk of there senior leadership forcibly removed. Kick em when they are down I say!
Where did you hear this?
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Erin Athena
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:21:00 -
[1714]
Right I read about 12 pages but i'm a bit impatient to say my piece now:
1: The rule is if a dev breaks the rules, they are gone. This dev has confessed to breaking the rules.
2: Writing in forums and game subscriptions are as rl as breathing or a genuine letter writen in real ink. A tree falling in the forest with no-one to hear it might very well fail to make a sound but there are people who can read this, making it exist in thousands of human brains as well as on hard disks and RAM.
3: If 15k people are mildly ticked off then thats the eqivelant of how much torture? 100 people having elecrtic shocks in intimate places for 5 hours?
4:Its sad that you can't get ahead in this game. Its really impossible, this guy I hear you just can't fire him because hes too important. So when his precious corp faces the howling guns of the rest of the single server he just crashes it, then gives BOB members priority login so they decimate the logged out armadas. If you can't afford to fire him then appology or not he could do this, and when caught say sorry and you have to keep him.
5:How many people are in this BOB thing anyway? 10k?
6: This whistleblower is good, offer him a job monitoring DEVs and if you are lucky he might accept.
Whatever else I remember. I want to read all the snipped things by the way, the ammount of censored on this forum makes me wonder what else is being covered up.
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:25:00 -
[1715]
48
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:25:00 -
[1716]
Originally by: Audri Fisher One more note. BoB just had a sizable chunk of there senior leadership forcibly removed. Kick em when they are down I say!
I'd like to hear a source on this one as well...
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Valan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:29:00 -
[1717]
CCP provides a competitive game were everyone interacts. Oveur said it himself everyone PvPs even the industrialists. A Dev cheating and not only that cheating for a top alliance should be a sackable offense. It affects all of us.
For those who say its only a game. Its only a game that we pay for and I for one don't expect to get rolled over by a Dev. Should be sacked even if its to preserve the integrity of CCP. Such a public **** up would automatically mean the sack in any other organisation.
THE only reason the Devs didn't fire him is because they thought we wouldn't find out and hence didn't have to. They covered it up and thought it had gone away. The deleted accounts were just a clean up and damage limitation exercise. Now its out its more smoke and mirrors to pretend they dealt with effectiveley ages ago. They're doing this becasue its all across the web an mmorpg game boards and now they see why they should've dealt with it properly in the first place.
They didn't tell the truth then there will be multitudes of things they haven't disclosed and we can't trust them to deal with it. This is the fourth example I can think of but if I mention it *snip* by the usual suspect I might add.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:30:00 -
[1718]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Ok I see the paranoia train is on the tracks again and its only getting more interesting.. Guess I'll just kick back and observe until this is all forgotten in short order.. As things like this always are.. But plz continue posting your opinions though so I can get a larger profile sample..
Enjoy the Conspiracy of the Month and keep a roll of reynolds wrap handy.. \o
DBPreacher ? Dianabolic ? Molle ? Fire59 ? witch one you are, poor little alt
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:32:00 -
[1719]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 this is silly, if i stacked a box wrong at my store should i be fired?
If you worked in the Bank of England and you gave your friends the stuff you produce for free, while everyone else in the universe has to work for it, hmm, I'd say you would be fired.
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Mag's
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:32:00 -
[1720]
I personally know of 3 players leaving the game because of this. I class these people as friends and it makes me rather sad.
It's a shame you let it get to this stage, it should have been sorted way before now. I and I guess many others, do not believe what we have been told, to be all of the truth and all of the facts.
Trust is hard to gain, easy to lose.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:35:00 -
[1721]
Originally by: maximus babbarus
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: maximus babbarus snip
Umm, I know I don't win prizes for being the most rational poster on here , but this is taking it too far dude.
Don't bring that into it. Jokes about fighting the Russians in the Winter, sure, but not this. Stay clear of that please.
hang on im in no way comparing a few bpos acount sharing h4xoring to world war 2 that would be ludicres what i am comapering is the line of defence taken is the same in both cercumstances by the lower lvl "minions" and that as any rpg /mmoprg models its self on rl and that the rl stance is "ignorance is in no way an exscuse" by acepting one you acept the other and by denouncing one you denounce the other and the intent behind it. and imho ignorance to a crime thats happened at your feet isnt an exscuse
Not suggesting you do, but I'd stay as far away as possible from any comparisons to that darkest piece of history.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:36:00 -
[1722]
Quote:
Originally by: Various PlayersWhy were <players> from <corporation/alliance> not banned for account sharing due to being part of a cynonet network if t20 was managing the network of an alliance?
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
If anyone has evidence of account sharing in a cynonet network on the part of players, submit a petition. The GM team will investigage the evidence in the petition and take appropriate action.
If you had any credibility left, there it went. /me waves goodbye to it.
The *head* of the *capital fleet* of a *large* corporation was unaware of the existence of cynonets within his corporation and the account sharing that can accompany them? Are you alleging that he must simply not have been reading the forums of the corporation of which he was a director or am I miscontruing the only possible interpretation of what you just said? Was t20 playing with a blindfold on and earplugs in?
That is an outright, bald-faced, 100% lie. You would have been better of chanelling GM reimbursement petition replies and saying "out logs show no evidence of anything, sorry."
If you want to gain back trust start telling the truth, start being transparent. Offering up one dev for slaughter will not defuse this situation. You cannot regain what you once had by deflecting community concerns and offering up vacuous excuses and meaningless apologies.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:44:00 -
[1723]
Edited by: Benny Hill on 10/02/2007 21:42:27
CCP was trying to fix the game for BoB, and more than likely are still doing so. They knew about this last year and didn't do a thing concerning the bpo's until a forum hacker outed CCP's complicity with fixing the game. And they did this for money. CCP wants a large alliance to succeed so the rest of Eve fights them, so CCP can advertise the Star Wars story-line for more subscriptions.
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Murmeltante
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:46:00 -
[1724]
Its really sad. I feel a little bit like: "I pay to get cheated!". Why do i run my R&D agent? Can i get some T2 BPOs for a half year? I will only take a look on them and make no profit
The information we got is nothing. The actions which has been taken only ensures in my eyes that such cases does not get public in the future.
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:46:00 -
[1725]
Originally by: Baun stuff
lolzz
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:48:00 -
[1726]
I'm sorry, i fail to comprehend how a Dev abusing the Tech2 Lottery (Which has been whined over enough on these forums as being rigged) gets away with what appears 'a disciplinary action'. As much as i like(d) T20, him being my favorite Dev and all, you have to be consistant. You cannot claim to have the strictest possible measures against Devs, GMs and ISD and not fire him.
If i remember correctly, a GM or ISD member spawned himself a faction fitted Raven and lost his job for it. A Dev magically gets himself 8(!) T2 BPOs and is allowed to stay?
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:48:00 -
[1727]
Originally by: Mag's I personally know of 3 players leaving the game because of this. I class these people as friends and it makes me rather sad.
Just wait until the other space MMORPG's that are in the works go online. If CCP will fix the game, but not fix the lag, there will be mass movement to those games.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:49:00 -
[1728]
Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Al Franken
The Liberal Media
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:50:00 -
[1729]
from Kieron:
Quote: I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
suuuurreee
Because the concept of a cynonet was just absolutely foreign to everyone back in the dark dark days of June '06.
Come on Kieron, you can't possibly believe a word of what you are typing. Every alliance worth its salt knew and had maintained a cynonet back then. To say that carriers and dreads only just became common, as opposed to say all of 7 months ago, is completely laughable.
It's obvious to everyone that a CCP employee was fully aware of violations of the EULA in the corp/alliance that he was in, but chose to do nothing about it.
But yeah, keep trying to cover that up too.
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:52:00 -
[1730]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Agreed, this is an extremely important question!
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:54:00 -
[1731]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Agreed, this is an extremely important question!
There are two possible exaplanations:
1) CCP did not know that he actually made BPOs for himself- This seems to have been admitted as false by kieron and Hel.
2) CCP did not care and still do not care- This seems inescapable. They took action only six months after the fact because they were forced to. Accompanying this action they banned the player that forced them to reveal the information and have started lying to us again hoping that we will be sated by an un-fired dev whose punishment is not even known to us.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:55:00 -
[1732]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Agreed, this is an extremely important question!
that`s an direct question, more luck in the lottery(no not the t2 lottery ;)) then getting a real reply wich makes sense
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:56:00 -
[1733]
As an aside to the postcount torrent that is this thread, I'd just like to tip my hat to Kieron for actually tracking it, and supplying answers.
I won't touch upon the accuracy or validity of said answers however. Thank you Kieron for putting up with this monster.
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Phil Sagan
Direct Intent The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:00:00 -
[1734]
kugutsumen has posted a lot more stuff from the BoB board he hacked, and it's not just the BPO thing that's a big problem, in my opinion. One of the things he uncovered is that the BoB directors have access to a lot of BoB members' accounts, for the purposes of accessing cyno alts. If this is true, CCP are beyond hypocrites for banning other people for account sharing, but looking the other way when it's done in BoB. Not that I think account sharing is that big of a deal, but blatant favoratism is.
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Susitna
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:02:00 -
[1735]
A couple simple questions. Why are CCP employees allowed to hold leadership positions in player corps and alliances? After this incident will CCP employees still be allowed to hold leadership positions in the future?
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:04:00 -
[1736]
Sorry but i don't have the patience to read the whole tread so i'm probably repeating stuff thats allready been said . Firstly, even as a n00b i allways thought there was something just a bit incestuous in the relationship between CCP and BoB....whatching EVE TV's coverage of the Alliance tourney was a bit sickening, the 'official' EVE community thre was allways fawning over BoB and how great they were etc,etc,etc.......
Secondly, even though its just one instance of outright fraud, how many unreported and undiscoverd instances have there been in the past? In RL police know that they only catch 1 in every 10 drug shipments, so we can safey asssume that BoB has probably gotten allot more help.
Thridly, CCP's 1st reaction was to cover thing sup and turn on the whistleblower....straight away thats a sign of hubris and arrogance...EVE is OUR game....to hell with the EULA....with out the players EVE and CCP would be nothing. CCP's reactions were to spit on the player base, and them offer up some half assed excuses.
And finally, there is the question of BoB themselves....their reputaion as this Uber Alliance of EVE's best PvP'ers is now utterly ruined...AFAIK BoB has no reputation left....all their achivements and everything they will do in the future will be forever tainted by this...no matter what they do we will allwaya wonder did they get where they are by cheating?
This Char is an Alt.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:11:00 -
[1737]
Hellmar's blog states you have begun forming some sort of institution to closely watch every Dev etc for cheating or otherwise unfair use of their knowledge/equipment.
EVE will be 4 years old this year, and the Blog states there have been multiple of these situations, why wasnt this done MUCH MUCH earlier?
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Egne Ver
Caldari The Reckoning
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:11:00 -
[1738]
So if this is the only instance that you uncovered then it will be a complete surprise when the other 5 names are listed right?
What about all the ôeventsö that just happen to coincide with ôroad tripsö?
What about the rampant sharing of accounts brought to light from within RKK that violates the EULA?
Will rules change to allow this sharing to again benefit BOB?
Does ôremoved from the gameö mean the same thing as ôname and portrait changedö?
Oh and everything that BoB has ôaccomplishedö is suspect, so is everything they might ôaccomplishö. The news is out, several gaming magazines and sites have the story and are running it. Spin control will accomplish nothing at this point, its time for a house cleaning before its too late. This was known to be happening and more is coming out soon.
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Sigmorhair
Gallente Eisenmetal
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:12:00 -
[1739]
I was starting to feel a bit better about things, and had some small hope we were finally seeing an honest attempt to do the right thing from CCP.
Then I saw this from Keiron:
"It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing."
This is obviously a bold faced and outright lie. t20 is not aware of Bob account sharing? It's a REQUIREMENT to even be in Bob. (not the cynonet stuff but the account sharing)
Back to square one.
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:13:00 -
[1740]
First, I do not need t20 to be fired to keep enjoying the game. But I do not understand why he isn't. I have been working as a system administrator for the past 7 years, and I cannot begin to think of what would happen to me if I were ever to abuse the systems that are trusted to me.
It's not CCP that I blame, more compagnies have empoyees they cannot miss, but I cannot believe that t20 himself wants to keep this job. Forgiveness is fine, but by his action he has betrayed the customers as well as his collegues. Other people have pointed out that removing the BPO's is a good way to deal with this. It's unbelievable that CCP thinks this will solve their problem. Right now there is a giant breach in convidance between CCP and their customers, and they better figure something better out to fix it. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head |
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:14:00 -
[1741]
Edited by: Baun on 10/02/2007 22:11:45
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
EVE will be 4 years old this year, and the Blog states there have been multiple of these situations, why wasnt this done MUCH MUCH earlier?
Becuase they don't care about actually policing themselves and protecting their customers, they only care that not doing so might cause them financial damage. They started "caring" the moment they were exposed and not one second before that.
If they cared they would have removed the BPOs when they found about about them. If they cared they would be completely transparent. If they cared they would not be lying to us and attempting to defuse the situation and deflect community concerns.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:15:00 -
[1742]
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
sorry kieron please tell me you dont believe the cr*p you are writing.
If it is true what you wrote then you are so out of touch with the game you might as well be playing WOW.
Aggro hands kieron a spade to dig himself and ccp a bit deeper hole.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Mxa Weber
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:17:00 -
[1743]
Originally by: Fulber As an aside to the postcount torrent that is this thread, I'd just like to tip my hat to Kieron for actually tracking it, and supplying answers.
I won't touch upon the accuracy or validity of said answers however. Thank you Kieron for putting up with this monster.
What answer! In this cast he has posted 2 mails in 3 days. He hasent done anything to solve the problem. They have to do something. I have paid for a product that didnŠt met up to what is were said from CCP to be. IŠm actually thinking of starting a process to get some of my money back. Playing a rigged global ingame-war, where BOB will let the other parts win, will not set things right. (Yes I think CCP will let BOB get their ass kicked in the comming days, to "calm things down").
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Cyrus Ildemar
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:18:00 -
[1744]
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 10/02/2007 22:14:37 Kieron, you ask for proof of cynonet account sharing. I have no idea what you would consider proof; the only possible proof of account sharing would be IP logs, and guess what? You have them, and there's no way for any other player to get them legally.
So here's an idea: look at them.
For instance, it is well known that SirMolle requires access to the account of every single member of Evolution. Seems like this would be easy to check; his IP address would be a pretty popular one in your logs if this is true.
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Luna Nilaya
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:22:00 -
[1745]
Originally by: John Tasker
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Agreed, this is an extremely important question!
that`s an direct question, more luck in the lottery(no not the t2 lottery ;)) then getting a real reply wich makes sense
The answer is pretty obvious. If they would have done that, this scandal would have surfaced back then.
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Untogether Isis
Newtonian Constructs Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:25:00 -
[1746]
On 3rd August 2006 at 20:07, in a thread discussing a particular officer fitted Scorpion (I'm sure those about at the time remember which one) Keiron wrote, and I quote:
"If the modules/ships/in-game items were attained illegally or made it into the game by a mistake, the GMs would remove those items. If the items were legal and legit, a GM would not interfere in your gameplay."
In the spawned-officer-fit-Scorpion debacle, one of the players who looted the dropped (and illegally spawned) mods was temp banned by CCP until all the mods were tracked down and removed from the game.
Can CCP please therefore explain as to why these BPOs, which CCP has admitted it has known about since Summer of this year, were not removed from the game at that time, in clear violation of the above statement and precedent set by CCP itself in similar circumstances.
(The orginal thread from which this quote is taken can be found here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=373936 )
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 22:26:00 -
[1747]
My wife says that "it's only a game", and that "everyone else is just jealous".
So ner ner ner.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Gritt Pebbledasher
Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:32:00 -
[1748]
Originally by: Baun Becuase they don't care about actually policing themselves and protecting their customers, they only care that not doing so might cause them financial damage. They started "caring" the moment they were exposed and not one second before that.
Hit the nail on the head. This is why I believe that its only unsubscriptions that will produce anything like a proper response from CCP.
As for BoB - lets keep in mind that the real responsibility here lies with CCP who have an obligation to provide a level playing field on which we can build our corps and alliances but who appear instead to have chosen to apply favouritism to certain groups, irrespective of whether those entities asked for it or not.
If CCP take steps to get their house in order, we can always re-enable our subs which ought to provide some sort of incentive for them, while firmly leaving the ball in their court. I sincerely hope that they do choose to do the right thing.
---------------------------------------
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:33:00 -
[1749]
I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
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Caius LiviusCerso
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:33:00 -
[1750]
Originally by: Egne Ver So if this is the only instance that you uncovered then it will be a complete surprise when the other 5 names are listed right?
What about all the ôeventsö that just happen to coincide with ôroad tripsö?
What about the rampant sharing of accounts brought to light from within RKK that violates the EULA?
Will rules change to allow this sharing to again benefit BOB?
Does ôremoved from the gameö mean the same thing as ôname and portrait changedö?
Oh and everything that BoB has ôaccomplishedö is suspect, so is everything they might ôaccomplishö. The news is out, several gaming magazines and sites have the story and are running it. Spin control will accomplish nothing at this point, its time for a house cleaning before its too late. This was known to be happening and more is coming out soon.
And why did their region get so many plexes that are good last patch?
And how could they change name of conquerable station in NOL?
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DarkMatter
Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:35:00 -
[1751]
My god...
I honestly think you all have to ask yourself a few questions:
1) Would you do what that DEV did if you had the power? (He was quite restrained in the BPO's he took IMO) How many of you take **** from work you know you're not supposed to?
2) Is the Alliance who gained those BPO's who they are because of that singular "event"? No, they could kick your ass without those BPO's anyways...
3) If this honestly bothers you that much, then just get on with it and leave, EVE will survive this...
IMO, I knew from day 1 stuff like this was going to happen. A bunch of guys made a game they intended to play, a lotà Some of them admitting to being PKÆers in another MMO, which portrays a certain type of play style/gamerà
I feel bad for the guys who lost their characters, that's insane...
If had my characters deleted after 4 years against my will, I'd want to kill someone...
Too many of you are playing up the wounded victim scenario here; you need to get over yourselves...
Building the homestead |
Hohenheim OfLight
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:36:00 -
[1752]
only jsut found out abou this, but i guess its all true then bob is ccps ***** and eve is totally ****** and bob will win out, may as well jstu quit now or join bob and get it over with.
thanks a lot ccp, playing eve in god mod is hardley fair, it the begging it was roumer and now its cold hard truth what more is there to say :( ----------------------------------------------
Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambishus?
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:38:00 -
[1753]
Originally by: Eron Lygera Because the community has decided that what ever a bob director/ceo/leader/member says they are lying.
That's a safe assumption. BoB's leadership haven't particularly shown themselves to be paragons of honesty on this issue.
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Korth
Amarr Serenity Technology
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:38:00 -
[1754]
For want of a nail the shoe was lost. For want of a shoe the horse was lost. For want of a horse the rider was lost. For want of a rider the battle was lost. For want of a battle the kingdom was lost. And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
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CPU
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:39:00 -
[1755]
To Sum Up:
1) Kieron should be commended for trying to come clean on this issue, and I expect that the slow response of CCP was a simple funtion of not being able to believe that a dev was cheating.
2) The dev in question, however valuable as an employee, really crossed the uncrossable line. The minimum punitive action should be a ban on him ever playing EvE again.
3) The alliance of said dev cheated and should be made low by all alliances who treasure EvE.
4) The whistleblower should be recognized and commended by all.
..
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Blackie Moldar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:39:00 -
[1756]
OMG and I have wasted 2 years doing R&D missions with no t2 BPO offer. I am Not wasting 1 more minute trying to get the white ghost. (I give Up)Should have tryed to be on the dev team. hehe (I kid I kid)
I'm sure CCP is doing all they can to fix the problems but as many times before (will it be good enf)??
as Far as BoB everyone in game nows them as the powerhouse winning tornys hold large areas in )0.0 not to take anything away from them in anyway on what they have done in game. (BUT) for this when they clearly took advantage of what the devs can provide. we all now t2 BPO= isk
I'm not saying I quit the game. But CCP has lost my trust in the game in many areas. the Lottery is not a tapper free as they claimed. being fair that will never happen. even in this game. I still feel screwed over my cargo expander 1 BPO that was legit and in a lab at time they change them Now I have 2 cuz my basic changed But my lvl 1 never did. R&D toons have no place in this game. waste of time. my opinion.
Hope CCP can work hard on this cuz this is a big blow to 1 of the best games I have played. and the Black eye the dev or devs that have cause this. If they stay as a dev they clearly have issues in CCP land. err iceland
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:41:00 -
[1757]
Originally by: CPU To Sum Up:
1) Kieron should be commended for trying to come clean on this issue, and I expect that the slow response of CCP was a simple funtion of not being able to believe that a dev was cheating.
He definitely has a tough job but you should stop short of commending someone who is openly, branzely and repeatedly lying to us.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Hubris
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:41:00 -
[1758]
bob will pay for wat they did and what ccp did. because other than canceling subs there is no real way to force ccp's hand.
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:46:00 -
[1759]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: Various PlayersWhy were <players> from <corporation/alliance> not banned for account sharing due to being part of a cynonet network if t20 was managing the network of an alliance?
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
If you had any credibility left, there it went. /me waves goodbye to it.
The *head* of the *capital fleet* of a *large* corporation was unaware of the existence of cynonets within his corporation and the account sharing that can accompany them? Are you alleging that he must simply not have been reading the forums of the corporation of which he was a director or am I miscontruing the only possible interpretation of what you just said? Was t20 playing with a blindfold on and earplugs in?
That is an outright, bald-faced, 100% lie. You would have been better of chanelling GM reimbursement petition replies and saying "our logs show no evidence of anything, sorry."
If you want to gain back trust start telling the truth, start being transparent. Offering up one dev for slaughter will not defuse this situation. You cannot regain what you once had by deflecting community concerns and offering up vacuous excuses and meaningless apologies.
QFT.
I'm sure that Trust for one will be fascinated to know how BoB moved all those dreadnoughts without a cyno network...
This just hurts now, as with every spadefull you're just digging the hole deeper and deeper. And meanwhile I hear people trying to alert other players to a wardec exploit which could cost them billions are having their posts deleted because "you can't discuss these things". For goodness sake, CCP, how can you be this blind to how this "keep them in the dark" attitude has to stop now if you're to retain any credibility?
-- I remember when "BS" in Eve used to stand for Battleship.
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:48:00 -
[1760]
Originally by: Sigmorhair I was starting to feel a bit better about things, and had some small hope we were finally seeing an honest attempt to do the right thing from CCP.
Then I saw this from Keiron:
"It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing."
This is obviously a bold faced and outright lie. t20 is not aware of Bob account sharing? It's a REQUIREMENT to even be in Bob. (not the cynonet stuff but the account sharing)
Back to square one.
I've been in bob twice so unless there is a you have to be in bob for X ammout of time before they ask you for your details from my view and personal experiance the requirement for account sharing is bull****. I was never asked for my details, nor were my old corp mates who have been in bob(evol) for over a year. ------------------------------------------- Contact t20 for your alliance BPO needs. Now doing 6 month intrest free contracts!!
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:59:00 -
[1761]
Out of curiosity, if any mention of this thread is being kept from the general discussion section, how are people (read the vast majority of even the small subsection of the EVE community who read the forums actively but do not know this forum exists)supposed to find out about this or voice their concerns?
Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Bluefix
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:59:00 -
[1762]
Edited by: Bluefix on 10/02/2007 22:56:13
Originally by: Lucre Edited by: Lucre on 10/02/2007 22:46:04
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: Various PlayersWhy were <players> from <corporation/alliance> not banned for account sharing due to being part of a cynonet network if t20 was managing the network of an alliance?
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
If you had any credibility left, there it went. /me waves goodbye to it.
The *head* of the *capital fleet* of a *large* corporation was unaware of the existence of cynonets within his corporation and the account sharing that can accompany them? Are you alleging that he must simply not have been reading the forums of the corporation of which he was a director or am I miscontruing the only possible interpretation of what you just said? Was t20 playing with a blindfold on and earplugs in?
That is an outright, bald-faced, 100% lie. You would have been better of chanelling GM reimbursement petition replies and saying "our logs show no evidence of anything, sorry."
If you want to gain back trust start telling the truth, start being transparent. Offering up one dev for slaughter will not defuse this situation. You cannot regain what you once had by deflecting community concerns and offering up vacuous excuses and meaningless apologies.
QFT.
I'm sure that Trust for one will be fascinated to know how BoB moved all those dreadnoughts without a cyno network...
This just hurts now, as with every spadefull you're just digging the hole deeper and deeper. And meanwhile I hear people trying to alert other players to a wardec exploit which could cost them billions are having their posts deleted because "you can't discuss these things". For goodness sake, CCP, how can you be this blind to how this "keep them in the dark" attitude has to stop now if you're to retain any credibility?
The threads were closed because they discussed GM conversations. There's a thread about it here which isn't closed: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473895
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Dracolich
North Star Networks Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:01:00 -
[1763]
Seems like the said Dev got punished on par with a normal player, while being a dev makes his offence so much worse.
I do have one question though, why did t20 jeopadize this colleagues and BoBs reputation, for some pretty ****ty bpos(Bob already have an extensive library)?
I very much doubt anyone would cross that line for something this small. This runs deeper...
Nonetheless, he should be fired either way - anyone else would.
Originally by: Hellmar
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here. Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency
I am sorry to say, that they shouldn't be allowed to do so. If they wanna play and test the game, they can do so on test server or become a normal player(=termination of being a dev). If they want to know how their adjustments affect the games for the players, they should ask them. Playing the game along with major alliances, is not only a big riskfactor, its totally unnecessary in the developement of the game.
I wonder how the world outside Eve-community will respond to this; maybe more online games suffers from injustice - however none that I know of, will dev cheating have an impact on par with Eve - not even close.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:01:00 -
[1764]
Originally by: Blackie Moldar
...as Far as BoB everyone in game nows them as the powerhouse winning tornys...
Yes about that, we had one member of the team blowing his whole fusebox at things that seemed off and odd in our game against BoB and now I hear a rumour that LeMonde is in TAOSP. I'm starting to believe that in fact the ECM Burst were never fired and something other than straight activation of modules went on.
So tell me CCP what can you offer us in reimbursement when t20s betrayal bleeds our outfit dry of very valuable personel?
Also Known As |
spurious signal
Caldari Brainiacs
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:04:00 -
[1765]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
/bow.
Take a good look at that post, Hellmar, and you'll begin to realize how little your development staff truly shares our "frustrations, joys, successes and failures."
Do you all even know the EVE you are developing anymore?
My god, QFT.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:05:00 -
[1766]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Blackie Moldar
...as Far as BoB everyone in game nows them as the powerhouse winning tornys...
Yes about that, we had one member of the team blowing his whole fusebox at things that seemed off and odd in our game against BoB and now I hear a rumour that LeMonde is in TAOSP. I'm starting to believe that in fact the ECM Burst were never fired and something other than straight activation of modules went on.
So tell me CCP what can you offer us in reimbursement when t20s betrayal bleeds our outfit dry of very valuable personel?
BoB doesn't seem to learn yet. And I have heard the same rumour, that LeMonde is in TAOSP and a name is attached to it as well, so I suspect he wont be for long.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Sephiraa
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:09:00 -
[1767]
Originally by: Lori Carlyle
Originally by: Sigmorhair I was starting to feel a bit better about things, and had some small hope we were finally seeing an honest attempt to do the right thing from CCP.
Then I saw this from Keiron:
"It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing."
This is obviously a bold faced and outright lie. t20 is not aware of Bob account sharing? It's a REQUIREMENT to even be in Bob. (not the cynonet stuff but the account sharing)
Back to square one.
I've been in bob twice so unless there is a you have to be in bob for X ammout of time before they ask you for your details from my view and personal experiance the requirement for account sharing is bull****. I was never asked for my details, nor were my old corp mates who have been in bob(evol) for over a year.
Were you in the Communist portion of EVOL or RKK? If not, than the account sharing requirement did not apply to you. Some of BoB is Capitalist, and doesn't require account info.
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Del369
Caldari Office linebackers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:09:00 -
[1768]
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
Sorry Kieron i think your gonna have to bite the bullet so to speak on this one and find a way.
Originally by: Wrangler That is an outright lie! We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:10:00 -
[1769]
Originally by: DarkMatter I feel bad for the guys who lost their characters, that's insane... If I had my characters deleted after 4 years against my will, I'd want to kill someone... Too many of you are playing up the wounded victim scenario here; you need to get over yourselves...
/Signed.
If they aren't going to fire this dev (not saying they should) then they need to un-ban this whistle blower.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:11:00 -
[1770]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: R'adeh Edited by: R''adeh on 10/02/2007 15:28:47
Originally by: Reiisha I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who now call about 1000 people liars, cheaters, untrustworthy and scum for no reason other than them not knowing what was going on.
I'll be sure to mimick this behaviour and call every single American i meet a corrupted, money laundering politician who should be shot, i shall call every German a **** sausage lover, i shall call every Scot a worthless alcoholic, i shall call everu muslim a suicidal and stupid fundamentalist.
Seriously. Read my ******* post and say this isn't seriously ****** up.
People realize not all of BoB are corrupt Devs. The reason why people are so mad, is that whenever they accused BoB of targeting stuff in POS and other exploits, we were ridiculed by BoB's "OMGHAX, tinfoil hat, STFU or proof, you suck, tinfoil hat!!!1!1!" crew.
Well, turns out we were right I know BoB has a lot of decent fair PVP'ers, no doubt about that. But corrupt devs in your ranks, leaders ridiculing other people for accusing you of stuff that has now been proven as correct (Riddari!!!), and that god damn "tinfoil hat STFU proof" squad has tarnished your AND CCP's name.
I'm sorry for the average BoB member who wants nothing but PVP and had nothing to do with all that bull****, you are the ones suffering from CCP's leniency and the some of your members incredible arrogance and corruption.
There was a single dev of which people didn't know he was a dev, and he used those BPO's to make ammo which people shot with their guns instead of selling it, to which i might add, bpo's the alliance has multiples of due to the number of ammo bpo's released.
How are we tarnishing CCP's name?
I'll just reverse the logic of so many bobfanbois have used and see how it sits with you: If you don't like the tarnish you've received being a member of bob why not just leave the alliance? ----------------- #begin Sig: Everything I say is the official word of me, my corp and my alliance. Anyone who says otherwise is full of themselves. :D
Hillary Clinton on Exxon: "I want to take |
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Veryez
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:13:00 -
[1771]
When I first read this thread I was sad and hurt. My trust had been betrayed and a game/community I cared about, deeply hurt. That BoB leadership (at least some of them) knew they were cheating I have no doubt. To the Dev who did this, you deserve a lifetime ban from EVE. I don't want to see you hurt in rl, but in EVE you should be killed forever.
Like I said, when I first read this...However it appears my faith in EVE has been restored by the very people who care the most - the players. The list of alliances arrayed against BoB is long indeed. To the players who are attempting to fix what is wrong with EVE (i.e. BoB) I say thank you. Kill BoB, Kill them all
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:14:00 -
[1772]
Originally by: kieron I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
I can picture the scene at CCP's new Internal Affairs Dept:
****************
Internal Affairs: "T20, while serving as director of BoB's capital fleet, were you aware of any sharing of accounts?"
T20: "Why, no, I would be shocked by such a thing! I had absolutely no idea!"
Internal Affairs: "OK, sorry for the trouble, I guess we're done here..."
****************
Yup, we're in good hands now...
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Doomed Predator
The Phoenix Rising Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:16:00 -
[1773]
Well i think that everyone is overreacting.So he cheated a bit, it's not like he got them a avatar bpo or anything.
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Doomed Predator
The Phoenix Rising Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:16:00 -
[1774]
Well i think that everyone is overreacting.So he cheated a bit, it's not like he got them a avatar bpo or anything.
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Kedryn Caitin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:19:00 -
[1775]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do. Eve would be a better place and more mature people would be more likely to start playing Eve. As it is right now, many people shy away from playing Eve due to this kind of crud. Unfortunately those threatening to quit have been playing the same tune over and over trying to get what they want with no intentions of ever quiting the game. It isn't a threat unless you are actually willing to go through with it.
So, if every person of conscience quit the game and left the cheaters, exploiters, EULA violaters and corrupt devs playing it would be better for Eve? It would attract mature players? I find that an interesting stance to take.
Actually, people shy away from the game because of the scammers, griefers and the feeling that the game is not balanced with a new player in mind along with all the true carebears that do not want to play a PvP game. It attracts either the above type of player, the type of person that likes to fight against the above type of player or someone looking for challenges that just cannot be found in other games.
I still love Eve. I still think it is a great concept and I like the fact that you can lose everything if you do stupid things. I have to accept the fact that Dev\GM mistakes like this happens, it happens in every single game whether it hits the light of day or not. But if anything is over the top, it is saying that people who want the playing field leveled in regards to cheaters or want players that are breaking the EULA to be ban to leave the game to open it up for more mature players...well, that is insane.
But even though I love Eve, I have done nothing in it since this hit except change skills. I have reactivated my WoW account, which I said I would never do since I do not like its sugary approach to gaming. But at least if there is cheating there, it has a hell of a lot less impact than it does in Eve.
I have had friends ask about Eve when they see me reading the forums. Some are people that use to play but left and were thinking of coming back now that they are more mature gamers and looking for more challenges. While I still talk about what I love in the game, I now have to explain the two latest, verified instances of Dev misconduct. I have to talk about the various accusations and lack of response to various players' actions in the largest alliances. I cannot just say "Bad things happened but they were burned out to the roots so no worries."
Basically I now have to qualify my statements when I speak about your game to potential customers. I have to warm them, not about bugs, not about features that have been waiting for implementation for a long while nor what appears to be a lack of interest in buffing industry\market\Pve but about Dev misconduct, serious player violations untouched that reek of favortism and a type of unleveled playing field that specific, targeted training can not overcome.
I have to ask you CCP....is that really how you want your word of mouth marketing to work in the future? Because game articles are soon forgotten by the masses, but people hurt or disillusioned by this will be telling their friends that show interest about your game for years to come.
And do not take that as a call for t20's head. Though I might be a paying customer that is a decision that only his superior should make. Out of all the issues involved, I am not going to concern myself with that one regardless of any opinions I might hold on it.
PS. Sorry if this is been covered, I am only on page 22.
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Kedryn Caitin
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:19:00 -
[1776]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do. Eve would be a better place and more mature people would be more likely to start playing Eve. As it is right now, many people shy away from playing Eve due to this kind of crud. Unfortunately those threatening to quit have been playing the same tune over and over trying to get what they want with no intentions of ever quiting the game. It isn't a threat unless you are actually willing to go through with it.
So, if every person of conscience quit the game and left the cheaters, exploiters, EULA violaters and corrupt devs playing it would be better for Eve? It would attract mature players? I find that an interesting stance to take.
Actually, people shy away from the game because of the scammers, griefers and the feeling that the game is not balanced with a new player in mind along with all the true carebears that do not want to play a PvP game. It attracts either the above type of player, the type of person that likes to fight against the above type of player or someone looking for challenges that just cannot be found in other games.
I still love Eve. I still think it is a great concept and I like the fact that you can lose everything if you do stupid things. I have to accept the fact that Dev\GM mistakes like this happens, it happens in every single game whether it hits the light of day or not. But if anything is over the top, it is saying that people who want the playing field leveled in regards to cheaters or want players that are breaking the EULA to be ban to leave the game to open it up for more mature players...well, that is insane.
But even though I love Eve, I have done nothing in it since this hit except change skills. I have reactivated my WoW account, which I said I would never do since I do not like its sugary approach to gaming. But at least if there is cheating there, it has a hell of a lot less impact than it does in Eve.
I have had friends ask about Eve when they see me reading the forums. Some are people that use to play but left and were thinking of coming back now that they are more mature gamers and looking for more challenges. While I still talk about what I love in the game, I now have to explain the two latest, verified instances of Dev misconduct. I have to talk about the various accusations and lack of response to various players' actions in the largest alliances. I cannot just say "Bad things happened but they were burned out to the roots so no worries."
Basically I now have to qualify my statements when I speak about your game to potential customers. I have to warm them, not about bugs, not about features that have been waiting for implementation for a long while nor what appears to be a lack of interest in buffing industry\market\Pve but about Dev misconduct, serious player violations untouched that reek of favortism and a type of unleveled playing field that specific, targeted training can not overcome.
I have to ask you CCP....is that really how you want your word of mouth marketing to work in the future? Because game articles are soon forgotten by the masses, but people hurt or disillusioned by this will be telling their friends that show interest about your game for years to come.
And do not take that as a call for t20's head. Though I might be a paying customer that is a decision that only his superior should make. Out of all the issues involved, I am not going to concern myself with that one regardless of any opinions I might hold on it.
PS. Sorry if this is been covered, I am only on page 22.
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:21:00 -
[1777]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Additional : they finally stickied a link to this thread in general discussion...too long enough, but better late than never.
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://myeve.eve-on |
Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:21:00 -
[1778]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Additional : they finally stickied a link to this thread in general discussion...too long enough, but better late than never.
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://myeve.eve-on |
John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:25:00 -
[1779]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Dagrin RDM I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Additional : they finally stickied a link to this thread in general discussion...too long enough, but better late than never.
that sticky has been there since:
Posted - 2006.11.28 01:48:00
in GD reffering to this part of the forums
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:25:00 -
[1780]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Dagrin RDM I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Additional : they finally stickied a link to this thread in general discussion...too long enough, but better late than never.
that sticky has been there since:
Posted - 2006.11.28 01:48:00
in GD reffering to this part of the forums
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:28:00 -
[1781]
Matters of Concern:
- CCP had BETTER apply the rules evenly. If they have evidence of BoB members violating EULAs and sharing accounts (and it's sounds liek that's a slam dunk), then it's time for the Ban Boot, espeicially considering it's use againt Mr. K.
- Apparently CCP wasn't able to find this info out on their own. Why should we have ANY confidence that their "investigation" will yield even a modest uncovering of the truth? Or that that CCP will actually tell us if they find out more?
- How can we have any confidence in the T2 lottery? Even if the vast majority of T2 BPO's BoB has were gained legitimately, there is a cloud of suspicion over the whole darned thing.
I don't envy CCP in trying to clean this up. It's a mess, and IMO, they need to do a HELL of a lot more than they've done so far to regain the trust of the community.
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:28:00 -
[1782]
Matters of Concern:
- CCP had BETTER apply the rules evenly. If they have evidence of BoB members violating EULAs and sharing accounts (and it's sounds liek that's a slam dunk), then it's time for the Ban Boot, espeicially considering it's use againt Mr. K.
- Apparently CCP wasn't able to find this info out on their own. Why should we have ANY confidence that their "investigation" will yield even a modest uncovering of the truth? Or that that CCP will actually tell us if they find out more?
- How can we have any confidence in the T2 lottery? Even if the vast majority of T2 BPO's BoB has were gained legitimately, there is a cloud of suspicion over the whole darned thing.
I don't envy CCP in trying to clean this up. It's a mess, and IMO, they need to do a HELL of a lot more than they've done so far to regain the trust of the community.
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:29:00 -
[1783]
Edited by: Dagrin RDM on 10/02/2007 23:30:28 Edited by: Dagrin RDM on 10/02/2007 23:28:55 Edited by: Dagrin RDM on 10/02/2007 23:27:35
Originally by: John Tasker
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Dagrin RDM I'm sure this will get modded, but I don't care anymore.
Do NOT so much as post a link to this thread in any other forum...it will disappear. And by a funny coincidence, the general discussion forum, which has the highest viewer traffic, has no mention of this threads existance anywhere.
So much for open communication with the playerbase.
(Admittedly, there is a link stickied in the CAOD forum, but tbh, most ppl who go there probably come here already anyway..it's the casual forum-users who are not allowed to learn about this.)
Additional : they finally stickied a link to this thread in general discussion...too long enough, but better late than never.
that sticky has been there since:
Posted - 2006.11.28 01:48:00
in GD reffering to this part of the forums
Agreed...but I said they stickied the link to this thread...when previously, any mention of it was deleted (not with a mod warning, the post(s) just vanished)
edit: I take it back..the stick linking to this thread just vanished off the board
Re-edit: the link is back, but in a locked, non-stickied post..it'll drop off soon
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://myeve.eve-on |
Keriann
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:31:00 -
[1784]
and yet CCP once again shows up it's SERIOUS inefficency and corruption. they punish the end user instead of WHO perpetrated the crime. no forgiveness. who did the illegal thing must be FIRED don't care if he's a CCP employer he deserves to lose the job. sorry but I am REALLY ****ed off at CCP for how treated me unfairly accusing me of things I didn't do (accusations then reterated with sorries because I was not guilty, yet they never returned the money).
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ceaon
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:32:00 -
[1785]
i still wait to see a update on kieron thread @@@@@@ @@@@@@
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:33:00 -
[1786]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM stuff
would be removed as any other thread with a link else where as cross posting
i know what u mean and i`m for it in this case but normally it is cross posting wich gets removed
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:35:00 -
[1787]
Originally by: spurious signal
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
/bow.
Take a good look at that post, Hellmar, and you'll begin to realize how little your development staff truly shares our "frustrations, joys, successes and failures."
Do you all even know the EVE you are developing anymore?
My god, QFT.
Agreed, QFT. ___________________________________
Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:39:00 -
[1788]
Originally by: Baun Out of curiosity, if any mention of this thread is being kept from the general discussion section, how are people (read the vast majority of even the small subsection of the EVE community who read the forums actively but do not know this forum exists)supposed to find out about this or voice their concerns?
Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
Put it in your posts as your banner, much like my link below and take it across all the forums, name it t20 sell out.
Also Known As |
BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:42:00 -
[1789]
you cant expect people employed by ccp to do a proper investigation against there employers when they could possibly risk there jobs for finding evidence against them that would wreck the company.
hire an outside agent to do an audit there are plenty of them ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:43:00 -
[1790]
Quote: It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
You are not so stupid that you believe that so you must be lying. The dreadnoughts had been in the game for more than a year when t20s characters where deleted. We , the regular players have seen the pictures from their cynonets so we know t20 is lying. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:44:00 -
[1791]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Baun Out of curiosity, if any mention of this thread is being kept from the general discussion section, how are people (read the vast majority of even the small subsection of the EVE community who read the forums actively but do not know this forum exists)supposed to find out about this or voice their concerns?
Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
Put it in your posts as your banner, much like my link below and take it across all the forums, name it t20 sell out.
cant , they quickly delete those signatures. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Blackie Moldar
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:47:00 -
[1792]
Well I ask.
1. How many BPO (t2) I think it was 8 2. How long did he have these months years. 3. How much ISK did he get from these 8 BPOs 4. How many peeps did this effect. 5. where those BPOs intended for somone else. (and rerouted to them)??????
How about toons that lost ship to Bob with ammo from those BPO's
CCP can't fix everything But 1 thing is clear T20 should never play eve again he has had a unfair advange. and there is no way to make sure that this wouldn't happen again. since we all know he knows how to doit. the more I read about this it's bad feeling. snowball lauchers wont begin to fix the damage cause By this.
I want to hear an statment from CCP on what is and will happen to devs and what there going to do with the black eye not only in this game but the gaming world. ( Cuz we all have heard before (IT"S PART OF THE GAME) Ya sure it is...but I don't think CCP is carless enf to sweep it under the rug say it was a scam/test But this show us all even CCP gets scammed just like many others in game.....
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:49:00 -
[1793]
Edited by: Baun on 10/02/2007 23:45:58
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Quote: It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
You are not so stupid that you believe that so you must be lying. The dreadnoughts had been in the game for more than a year when t20s characters where deleted. We , the regular players have seen the pictures from their cynonets so we know t20 is lying.
In some sense this is actually the most insulting thing that has happened thus far; the devs actually think that their paying customers are so stupid as to buy this complete line of bull****.
"We had no idea that something people had been using for months and months and that was an inevitable implication of game mechanics we ourselves designed was even around. The cheating dev who happened to administer that area for one of the corps in the game with the largest capital fleet had no knowledge of the things he himself setup."
I am really sickened by this. Not only do they lie to us, they lie to us in a manner that assumes we are, at best, functionally retarded.
Of course, I feel like I am spinning my wheels here. I suppose that that isn't surprising given the dearth of information released to us and the almost complete silence from CCP (bar the occasional bald faced lie).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Halada
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:49:00 -
[1794]
This is an EPIC thread.
Chribba, dude, I love you, and I hope you are backing this thread up before it is closed and deleted to oblivion for eternity.
I think we have all established and given our point of view, that is, CCP tried to cover their asses and we all called the bull on it.
I need to learn what QFT means by the way...
Click on my sig to read it ! |
Condor vI
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:51:00 -
[1795]
Quote: We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed.
Kieron, Thats a lie there is a way to reverse the impact. Remove those T2 items a BoD's hangers,remove the isk from BoD wallet and lift the ban on Kugutsumen. The appoligy blog from T20, is that some kind of joke. I read sorry I got caught giving BoD the T2 BPO and you cant prove the other "Recent Allegations".
I speak on my own behalf not for FLA or AirHawk.
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:55:00 -
[1796]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
I really liked Kieron's answer to this question.... ....oh wait....nvm
Why hasn't this been answered yet?
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://myeve.eve-on |
Mr Postman
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:56:00 -
[1797]
The Scandal has reached mmorpg.com: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/115703
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:56:00 -
[1798]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
I really liked Kieron's answer to this question.... ....oh wait....nvm
Why hasn't this been answered yet?
cause it`s a direct question
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SugarDaddy
Comando Vermelho Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:58:00 -
[1799]
I once hear Eve was supposed to be "rutheless as real life"
Congratz CCP you have achieved that.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:02:00 -
[1800]
The unbelievable amount of effort everyone is putting to burying this whole issue is rediculuse.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
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UGWidowmaker
Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:02:00 -
[1801]
I will make your wife/mann a widow. |
starflam
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:02:00 -
[1802]
An appoligy is very easy ... I can't believe that you don't have give more bpo. i'm not sure to continue to play at a game under an sheat organize by the dev. |
Hennry Fromer
Gallente TRSG Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:03:00 -
[1803]
Edited by: Hennry Fromer on 11/02/2007 00:03:18
Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 10/02/2007 15:20:45
lol, you are crazy. please tell me you're roleplaying. How can you seriously think that 'BOB had powers that would allow them to log in before downtime is over, crash nodes, somehow control who can log back in after a crash......' that's just insane.
Next we will be hearing taht BoB leader can post real life information in the forums and not be banned.
Fvortism is/was show - We do not know how deep or to what extent.
Animal Farm paraphrase time "All animals are equal - some are just more equal than others"
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:04:00 -
[1804]
think why the discussion is slowing down is cause of alot of ppl can`t post anymore temporarly
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Karmae
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:13:00 -
[1805]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Brunn although 60 pages in so little time is good to see that so many ppl are worried about the subject, this thread is getting to big for the devs actualy adress all that has been posted here.
What i would realy liked to see is any official answer from CCP who havent said anything for 18h.
60 pages of the same 40 people in it including me.. Ya thats a *huge* slice of the playerbase.. Or do you guys assume you speak for the entier playerbase?
I want to see the answers to all the points previously mentioned such as cynonets, dev power abuse, BoBs alleged Polaris frig scouts, Double standards on banning(Kugutsumen vs. Molle), Dianabolics inside knowledge on petitions and so on as much as anyone else - although I have not posted until now I feel the general theme of discussion is representative of my feelings on the issues. As such those posters are speaking for me.
But since I've started to post I'll say that I've been in Eve well over 3 years now - I'm 90% certain that there will be no renewals on subs for my accounts until CCP honestly get this in the open and stop sweeping things under the carpet.
And FREE KUGUTSUMEN. CCP - It may be a bitter pill right now but in the long run he has done you (and the playerbase) a favour. Your self-regulation created this mess, if it wasn't brought to light now then how more rotten would your game become as time went on? The double-standards and selective banning does nothing to reassure me that this game is worth continuing with.
/disappointed
==================== There is 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
Flaming Lemming
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:14:00 -
[1806]
Originally by: John Tasker think why the discussion is slowing down is cause of alot of ppl can`t post anymore temporarly
and because ppl who don't usually come here have a hard time finding out about it, because every mention of it in general discussion is deleted or locked (and allowed to fall off the page)
I'm just an Alt....but my main doesn't have a sig either.
a forum thread you need to read |
Egne Ver
Caldari The Reckoning
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:15:00 -
[1807]
Originally by: Mr Postman
The Scandal has reached mmorpg.com: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/115703
ItÆs hit more than just that, itÆs on:
www.bluesnews.com kotaku.com/gaming www.fragland.net/ www.rage3d.com/ www.playfuls.com/ www.freegamecam.com/ dig.com
as well as: Slashdot The Enquirer The Escapist
Shoot its hit real news now too, just Google it, its everywhere and everyone in the gaming community is watching. IÆve seen companies fold over less of a scandal tbh.
CCP if your waiting for the right time to be honest and fix the problem, itÆs about to pass the point of no return. Damage control is not going to stop this, come clean and fix it.
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:15:00 -
[1808]
Originally by: Miasia Let us hope, that the preasure from other sides than the eve player community growth, so that they are forced to do more. I hope CCP pay's real money (loosing subsriptions = monthly income) for cheating us all. If something hurts their moneyback, people (even at CCP) knows, that something wents wrong.
they will miss my 4 in less then 2 months
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:16:00 -
[1809]
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Originally by: John Tasker think why the discussion is slowing down is cause of alot of ppl can`t post anymore temporarly
and because ppl who don't usually come here have a hard time finding out about it, because every mention of it in general discussion is deleted or locked (and allowed to fall off the page)
atleast it`s linked in any mmo site
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:17:00 -
[1810]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
this is the second thread down on the sickys so people can find it, thing is short of spamming local in every region, not all players will "stumbl" upon this thread Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
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Mr Postman
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:18:00 -
[1811]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
Someone should sit in Jita 24/t and redirect ppl to this tread javascript:insertsmilie('','WebPost','text'); Twisted Evil
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:19:00 -
[1812]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 11/02/2007 00:17:07
Originally by: Egne Ver
Originally by: Mr Postman
The Scandal has reached mmorpg.com: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/115703
ItÆs hit more than just that, itÆs on:
www.bluesnews.com kotaku.com/gaming www.fragland.net/ www.rage3d.com/ www.playfuls.com/ www.freegamecam.com/ dig.com
as well as: Slashdot The Enquirer The Escapist
Shoot its hit real news now too, just Google it, its everywhere and everyone in the gaming community is watching. IÆve seen companies fold over less of a scandal tbh.
It's going on in the forums of other games now as well. Links I won't post because I *do* respect EULAs and NDAs. ("*do*" not directed at anyone I quoted, to be clear) -AS |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:19:00 -
[1813]
I'm growing more and more frustrated with the "awh it's not a biggie" mentality of CCP. I mean, I know there are people screaming for BOB blood, but tbh, I couldn't care less about them. Apart from beeing a well organized alliance, they took whatever they could get their hands on. Tbh, I can't blame them.
But ffs CCP! At least come out with it. Not like this, with just 2 crappy devblogs and a thread in a forum that noone ever read. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head --
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335The truth |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:20:00 -
[1814]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
What percentage of active players even read the forums on a day to day basis? Lets be really generous and call it 20%.
What percentage of active forum readers ever read this section of the forums? 1% maybe?
What percentage of EVE subscribers even know that there are dev blogs, much less read the dev blogs? Probably less than 20%.
While all of that demonstrates actually how little the primary information has disseminated to the community, it is largely irrelevant. If CCP is so sincere about wanting our forgiveness and coming clean why are they deleting any linking of threads in other forums (even in replies)? Why hasn't their honest desire to make amends prompted an in-game news post?
The answer is so obvious that you prodding me must have been disingenuous.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:22:00 -
[1815]
From a general discussion thread..
Originally by: Ben Deadwood
Originally by: Deepspace Wanderer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..sweep...sweep...I'm sure no-one will see it under this carpet here.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, a 56 page thread in the very first section of the forum is sweeping it under the carpet.
You think people are so blind as to not see what you are doing? Political metagaming disguised as moral outrage, you're all essentially brushing the peices off the chessboard cause your losing.
BoB must truly be the best alliance if the only way you people think you can beat them is by trying to strongarm CCP into overreacting and punishing a whole alliance for the actions of one person.
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Helxia
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:22:00 -
[1816]
An interesting fact. For a long time Eve Online was number 1 on mmorpg.com and just in last two days it slipped to number 3.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:23:00 -
[1817]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
What percentage of active players even read the forums on a day to day basis? Lets be really generous and call it 20%.
What percentage of active forum readers ever read this section of the forums? 1% maybe?
What percentage of EVE subscribers even know that there are dev blogs, much less read the dev blogs? Probably less than 20%.
What percentage of people hear stuff 'word of mouth' from their friends? 100%
When me and a dozen RL friends started playing EVE I was the only one who reads various EVE forums. Last night they ALL found out from me in corp chat and on TS about this.
So far 8 of them have cancelled and the other 4 are giving it until Monday to see if there is a much more appropriate responce from CCP. =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Counterparty
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:24:00 -
[1818]
Originally by: Kedryn Caitin
Originally by: Lord XSiV Actually it would be nice if all these people threatening to quit actually do.
So, if every person of conscience quit the game and left the cheaters, exploiters, EULA violaters and corrupt devs playing it would be better for Eve? It would attract mature players? I find that an interesting stance to take.
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
Amarrian-style zeolotry instantly became the flavor of the month on this thread.
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Bluefix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:29:00 -
[1819]
Originally by: Helxia An interesting fact. For a long time Eve Online was number 1 on mmorpg.com and just in last two days it slipped to number 3.
Actually that's nothing new. It happens almost on a daily basis
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Egne Ver
Caldari The Reckoning
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:31:00 -
[1820]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
What percentage of active players even read the forums on a day to day basis? Lets be really generous and call it 20%.
What percentage of active forum readers ever read this section of the forums? 1% maybe?
What percentage of EVE subscribers even know that there are dev blogs, much less read the dev blogs? Probably less than 20%.
What percentage of people hear stuff 'word of mouth' from their friends? 100%
When me and a dozen RL friends started playing EVE I was the only one who reads various EVE forums. Last night they ALL found out from me in corp chat and on TS about this.
So far 8 of them have cancelled and the other 4 are giving it until Monday to see if there is a much more appropriate responce from CCP.
Yep a frinds corp of 37 very active members is now down to 2
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:32:00 -
[1821]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
What percentage of people hear stuff 'word of mouth' from their friends? 100%
True as that may be,that means that the vast vast majority of players are getting information through a cosmic version of telephone.
That people can get information without actually seeing the primaries actually has nothing to do with my question. Please deal with that directly if you could;
If CCP is so committed to coming clean and being open, why can't this thread be linked to other more commonly read areas of the forum? Why haven't they made an ingame news post about the most monumental game related piece of news ever?
It is hard for me to simultaneously believe that ever EVE player out there is getting this information somehow and that CCP is instructing forum moderators to quash mention of this elsewhere with no ulterior motive. Certainly if everyone has ready access to this information there would be no reason why there is no news posting right? There would be no reason not to make clear notice of this post on the other areas of the board?
Here is a nice corrolary for you. When the forums were being bombarded with trojan links that were taking over people's accounts did CCP confine discussion of it to one thread? Did they make a new post about it? No, they stickied every forum with the information and made an urgent news posting about it.
CCP thought that that was something everyone should know immediately. Obviously they don't believe that the entire player base should be given immediate notice of this.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Galea Wildfang
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:32:00 -
[1822]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus (...)
You spineless alt can just stop here. People state their feelings, concerns and believes in this thread, most of them once, a few of them a little more often. And whatever you say (if anything at all) will not change that. So STFU. Too bad this thread is not located in the sell forum, else you'd receive a warning for each bump after the first (per day that is).
Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
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Milano II
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:33:00 -
[1823]
Originally by: Arowe Telak
Originally by: Shigsy They weren't actually even very good BPO's
All except the Sabre bpo, which is one of the best.
Anyways, at the very least I hope all the accusations in COAD dies down. It was getting a bit stupid tbh.
AND THAT'S JUST THE BPOS TO WHICH THE ADMITTTT TO STEALING.
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Siliya
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:35:00 -
[1824]
I think T20 Was offered up by BoB as a sacrificial Lamb to protect the others in the alliance ... 1 out of 10 Drug shipments you say ....
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:36:00 -
[1825]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
I have you even checked whats happening in general discussion before shooting your mouth off?
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:36:00 -
[1826]
Originally by: Counterparty
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
We are customers, we have every right. I for one hope this all gets straight and CCP and the game are better for it.
Rules are rules, when they are applied selectivly, they cease to be rules and become something else. As a paying customer, I want assurances that the product I buy is of the same quality that the next guy buys.
CCP wants to create a game for griefers by griefers, fine by me, I can grief too. I just want to know I am being griefed fairly and have the same asshat oppertunities as the next asshat.
Oh look, a contradiction, a conflict of intrest inherint in the system. Fix it. -AS |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:36:00 -
[1827]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 11/02/2007 00:33:16
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
Last night a search on yahoo for "EVE online dev misconduct" returned 1510 results. Today, 12 hours later, the same search returns 1970 results. I'd say the scope of this this is just slightly beyond this message thread.
Yes, thanks to some people for not staying rational and creating the wildest stories.
Currently I see only a few big issues on the table:
1) The BPOs from T20. He has been cheating, but it's not the reason, why BOB is a successfull alliance. BoB would be rich without them, that's for sure. If other key players knew, that the BPOs were obtained illegally, don't know. But don't forget, the problem was brought into BoB by T20. I doubt e.g. that Molle said to T20: 'Spawn us some BPOs, please.'
And I wonder, if those other alliances, who are known to have exploited e.g. complexes or had ebayers in their rows and point their finger now, would have rejected those BPOs just because they are not sure, how they were obtained. Hypocrisy ftl !
2) Several BoBs seem to knew that certain players of them were devs. That's again the sole mistake of those devs, because they didn't keep their mouth shut.
3) Account sharing. Not proven, but likely. If devs knew about it and didn't react, it's their fault, that they didn't react. Nevertheless giving away account details to let someone else use a character for a specific purpose hasn't been invented by BoB. It widely spread, although against the EULA and if they'd ban everyone, who has ever given their account details away, then I guess at least half of the older players wouldn't be ingame anymore. So if BoB did that then they were one of many, just that they used it more organized. The only special thing is that the devs in BoB didn't react, if they knew it. A resposible behaviour would have been to stop it, especially after many people already know that they were devs. Then they could have said: 'Hey guys, you know the EULA and I can't let this go through. So stop it !' If a dev knew of it, it was his in his responsibility.
4) character selling for $$. Eula violation like account sharing. Some guys in BoB are surely not the only ones, who did that. Again, if a dev knew of it, it was in his responsibility to stop it. Since his mates seem to knew his identity anyway, why didn't he talk to them and stop it ? (I mean I assume here that there was some kind of conflict of interests, because he doesn't want to look like a traitor, but anyway, he could have told his mates to stop it. On the other hand, the BoBs who maybe did it and knew that they have devs in their alliance, shouldn't have brought the dev into this conflict of interest in the first place by doing it in front of his nose.
The other rumors seem to be just made up stories so far without any proof.
If I look at it, I guess some alliances, who also harbor some members who don't take the EULA too seriously or have already exploited, can be happy that they don't have devs in their alliance. If they had a serious dev in their alliance who watches EULA violations and swings the ban hammer fast, they would have been in big trouble I think.
From my view the main responsibility for this mess has CCP. No the clueless nubs cry like mad, because they think BoB have reached everything with cheating, witch is laughable. And the other BoB-haters want them to bleed, even if the impact off this on the game was neglible or if those EULA violations have also happen in their own alliance or corp.
I see BoB more as a victim in this playing a tragic role. No major benefit that really made a big difference, but big mess !
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Locus Bey
Gallente Qalandar
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:37:00 -
[1828]
The double standards with regard to account sharing, e-bay/character sales and isk farming I find really problematic. Many average joes have been banned for such activities, and yet those exposed in recent events remain. I tend to think that CCP has turned a blind eye to these activities when it comes to many major players and alliances. It's obvious these activities are so widespread and would require a whole division to police, that these majors can fall through the *****s in CCP's minds. What this means is that CCP has wanted to see BoB flourish for the games storyline development, regardless of its effect on the small guy and the rest of the EVE community. I can understand this in some sense, and even surmise it probably didn't forecast some of the abuses scope or that it would result in certain of its own team actively exploiting the game system. I really don't know what should be done, but sweeping it under the carpet is not the right option. If CCP admits it knew but did nothing, yet banned other accounts, you have what looks like favouritism. This answer would only be part of the story in effect given its a bigger 'problem' than those mentioned as previously said. TBH it should have been all banned or none from the beginning.
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Melbone Red
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:38:00 -
[1829]
the only way CCP will take care of this by it hurting in the pocket. many peeps are ****ed. CCP should give evryone a 90day time code. that wont happen. but when they lose a large amount of cash per month they will jump.
My 2 cents |
Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:42:00 -
[1830]
ccp have just entered a nightmare. This have come up a few months after they used alot of $ on new hardware, and the nightmare is getting more ugly for eatch time zone to come online..
I fully understand that people want something, but it is weekend, we proberbly wount se anything before monday evening or tuesday
CCP needs to do something, and it have to be rock solid. This is spreading over the net eatch minute, every single game site out there have something about it, and there is alot of frustratet players
This can werry easely be the end of eve. Dont think IBM is to happy with this kind of attention, on eve. There is alot at stake here, for us its only a game for those working for them its there lifes, jobs that is at the end of the rope.
There is a set of rules to be folowed, for me as gamer and for anyone working at ccp. All people on the bottom line wants is that those rules are effective and folowed and if broken no one is above them, not even the ccp owners
Im realistic and i know that there will be no great answer proberbly over the weekend, but please, just dont take to long time or this will be on CNN, BBC and 60 minutes werry soon...
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Stoli Vodka
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:45:00 -
[1831]
Edited by: Stoli Vodka on 11/02/2007 00:44:05 If I provide a BoD kill that uses the following:
* Flameburst Precision Light Missile * Phalanx Rage Rocket * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile * Spike L * Sabre
can I petition my losses? And if not is there any action I can take?
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Rogue Arrow Galactic Empire O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:46:00 -
[1832]
does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
Originally by: SPQRMocton
We would love to have a bunch of teenage pimple boys with no real pvp ability to fil our corpse yards
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:48:00 -
[1833]
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
Time to realise that this is not so much about t20 , but the coverup. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
J Valkor
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:50:00 -
[1834]
Edited by: J Valkor on 11/02/2007 00:46:34 Effect so far?
http://myeve.eve-online.com/serverStatusGraph/ServerStatus.aspx?gid=1
Nil.
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Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:51:00 -
[1835]
Edited by: Sun Win on 11/02/2007 00:47:45 Hold up a second. From Keiron:
Quote: Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
from t20's apology:
Quote: The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future.
So am I right in reading this an understanding that CCP has known about the illegitimate BPOs SINCE THE SUMMER but they are only getting them out of the game TODAY? BoB had BPOs that CCP knew were illegitimate for like 6 months?
Guys, that really sucks.
New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:51:00 -
[1836]
Originally by: Sral TBear ccp have just entered a nightmare. This have come up a few months after they used alot of $ on new hardware, and the nightmare is getting more ugly for eatch time zone to come online..
I fully understand that people want something, but it is weekend, we proberbly wount se anything before monday evening or tuesday
CCP needs to do something, and it have to be rock solid. This is spreading over the net eatch minute, every single game site out there have something about it, and there is alot of frustratet players
This can werry easely be the end of eve. Dont think IBM is to happy with this kind of attention, on eve. There is alot at stake here, for us its only a game for those working for them its there lifes, jobs that is at the end of the rope.
There is a set of rules to be folowed, for me as gamer and for anyone working at ccp. All people on the bottom line wants is that those rules are effective and folowed and if broken no one is above them, not even the ccp owners
Im realistic and i know that there will be no great answer proberbly over the weekend, but please, just dont take to long time or this will be on CNN, BBC and 60 minutes werry soon...
with this info being released on a friday, what did they expect? besides that, if every one would just post now, they may have hoped that after venting some anger, it would cool down guess that didn`t happen and it`s spreading like a wildfire
that other ppl are making a living isn`t our fault as players, we`ve been cheated, they should have thought about that when it happend and make a fool proof coverup
gamble gone haywire and out of and out of damage control range with it being on the news every where and spreading
who ever cooked up this idea is reading this thread and prolly wonder if they want to come to the office on monday not even an Damage Control Unit V will fix this issue
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:52:00 -
[1837]
Please fire everyone at CCP.They messed up my interweb space game by helping bob.
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:53:00 -
[1838]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
I have the right. I am expressing it with each and every post I make. I express it each time I renew my subscription. I express it when I report a bug. I express it each and every time I log on to the game. I express it each time I tell a RL friend about this game.
I do have that power, *I* am the customer.
-AS |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:53:00 -
[1839]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan Edited by: Kalindra naskan on 11/02/2007 00:44:55
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Counterparty
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
We are customers, we have every right.
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
I am sure CCP wants a reputation as the company people can pay money to to be cheated and lied to in their spare time.
Ace deal I am sure they are looking forward to this.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Soporo
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:54:00 -
[1840]
Edited by: Soporo on 11/02/2007 00:52:17
All I really want at THIS point is an answer to a question:
Does CCP still think it's a good idea for Devs/Gm's to be in huge game shaking Alliances and Corporations? If so, why? If not, what are you going to do about it? |
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:54:00 -
[1841]
Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 11/02/2007 00:46:34 Effect so far?
http://myeve.eve-online.com/serverStatusGraph/ServerStatus.aspx?gid=1
Nil.
that is because ppl have play time, i`m logged in aswell but only till my time runs out throwing away payed game time is robbing ur own money
i still have stuff to sell in contracts with other ppl, that i`ve decided to quit when the time comes doesn`t means i quit now and hurt the ppl i call friends
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Helxia
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:58:00 -
[1842]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan Edited by: Kalindra naskan on 11/02/2007 00:44:55
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Counterparty
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
We are customers, we have every right.
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
We do have one very powerful right. The right to quit the game. Looks like it's the only option left to change CCP mind.
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:00:00 -
[1843]
(a) t20 should be fired. (b) all involved board members of BoB should be banned. (c) BoB should have 50% of its corporate assets declared forefiet. (d) Kugutsmen should have all of his accounts reinstated and any lost sps addressed. (e) kieron should formally apologize to the Eve community and to Kugutsmen on the Eve Boards (f) Hellmar Petursson, the CEO of CCP, should apologize to the Eve community on these boards. (g) This thread should be moved to the General Discussions board and made a sticky.
This will alter the risk/reward calculus for any potential cheaters.
This is also in CCPs best interest because a player base needs to trust the company that runs/develops these games. Frankly, were CCP publicly held, I'd say that the failure to treat this with the utmost seriousness would be a violation of managment's duty to its share holders. Even though Eve is privately held, if anyone other than management owns shares, I think that they would still hold such a duty. As some one said above, games have cratered for less than this. So management is messing around with the only significant asset of the company by handling this as abysmally as they have.
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End Solution
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:05:00 -
[1844]
njaa theres alot of fighting going on atm.. thats why it slowed down. also i think people have said what they want to say... letten all the frustrations out. i think its nice of ccp to let people let it out. thx for that.
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Siliya
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:06:00 -
[1845]
its been mentioned on the g4tv Forums ... IF this thing goes there on Show (AOTS S-Play Cheat) there will be no Damage control
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Grazda
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:06:00 -
[1846]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan
We are customers, we have every right.
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
Actually. 3 words.
Customer is King.
The first and foremost responsibility CCP has is to its customers. Otherwise, it is nothing.
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:07:00 -
[1847]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger To all ppl saying "I have that T2 BPO and is not good"...
Can I have your T2 BPO?
Can I just get the Sabre BPO? --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
SQL
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:07:00 -
[1848]
Originally by: mazzilliu any chance of unbanning kugutsumen then? :/
this
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:07:00 -
[1849]
Edited by: Dagrin RDM on 11/02/2007 01:05:06
Originally by: Morgain dVher (a) t20 should be fired. - or at least permabanned from EVER playing eve (b) all involved board members of BoB should be banned. - agreed (c) BoB should have 50% of its corporate assets declared forefiet. - this seems a bit harsh..most of BoB were innocent (d) Kugutsmen should have all of his accounts reinstated and any lost sps addressed. - undecided..he did a great service, but he did break EULA (e) kieron should formally apologize to the Eve community and to Kugutsmen on the Eve Boards - community = agreed, Kugutsmen = undecided (see above) (f) Hellmar Petursson, the CEO of CCP, should apologize to the Eve community on these boards. - agreed (g) This thread should be moved to the General Discussions board and made a sticky. - AGREED - everybody should know about this
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://myeve.eve-on |
ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:09:00 -
[1850]
Edited by: ToxicFire on 11/02/2007 01:07:38 2000th in a few post still no clear direction on what ccp is currently doing.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
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Findail
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:09:00 -
[1851]
Sad that so many have twisted this whole saga into an "I hate BoB" crusade, because that's what it's become.
1 dev foolishly abuses his privileges, and those that didn't are forced to suffer as well. Don't forget how this information was obtained in the first place too. You can't claim that the hacking was for "the good of all". Or have people forgotten to a certain US security specialist that used a DNS hack to expose a security flaw in military DNS servers?
Want to ban all devs from playing? So they'd have to believe the customers about balance issues or exploits? Yeah right. If this thread is anything to go by, there's no way that'll work. In fact, it gives rise to the question of age restrictions - maybe it needs to be raised.
About time the playerbase grew up.
A developer did something wrong. As a result, his colleagues and workmates also suffer. Crass stupidity erupts on the forums.
We see posts saying that the original hacker should be "freed"
The term should be "prosecuted". No matter your intentions, committing a crime because of a computer game doesn't excuse you.
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Cassiuss
Minmatar STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:10:00 -
[1852]
Edited by: Cassiuss on 11/02/2007 01:13:04 Respect to you Kieron and crew for attempting to sort this matter out, once this came to light I really dont think there is anything you can do to appease the playerbase in EvE.
Tbh, I feel like I have been lied to or duped/conned. I take this to heart. As you are aware poeple put a small life time into EvE, its not a game that you can play for 30 mins to an hr and even remotely do anything worthwhile. Its a time consuming game and most people who enjoy it as much the above posters do feel cheated as they invest in this universe.
It's slightly annoying about some of the answers being hidden behind Eula and ToS documentation but hey what can you do. Legalities are such, I think there are Devs/players as well in this game who have openly cheated, manipulated game mechanics to thier corp or alliance advantage and its infuriating.
GL CCP, if there was another MMO to compete with EvE I would be trying it now. There isnt. So please, in the future, dont let this 'favouritism' happen again.
Peace,
2000th post BIATCHES!!! Cassiuss, STK-S Recruitment Officer
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Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:11:00 -
[1853]
Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 11/02/2007 01:08:52 I'm anrgy as hell, but will try to post something constructive instead of joining the lynch mob.
It seems that in every instance a CCP employee is brought to light for cheating, CCP has a knee jerk reaction to deny, take action against the complainers, and then do nothing until an uproar occurs. This is fact and CCP have to admit it to themselves. With the GM who spawned items for himself, the people in the gate camp were banned, and it took an uproar for justice to be done. When Kugutsmen obtained information on CCP employees in RKK, he was banned, and it took a community uproar for the facts to come to light. CCP's policy does not work, and its IA division is falling short.
I'm not going to join the chorus of people asking that t20 will be fired, but I will ask for a review of the current policy (deny deny until the complaints become too much) and a restructuring of this auditing division so that it can do its job better. If CCP publices some of the successes of the auditing division, this could go a long way to restore trust. Perhaps adding a new category in the petition section called "CCP employee misconduct" would help. We don't need to know all the procedures, just that they are standardized and every case will be handled the same way. ISO 9000 certification for the customer service department could go a long way towards that.
I love this game, I have no intention of quitting, but I don't want EvE to die because of inept oversight and procedures. ------------------- |
Klazy Luke
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:12:00 -
[1854]
Originally by: Morgain dVher (a) t20 should be fired. (b) all involved board members of BoB should be banned. (c) BoB should have 50% of its corporate assets declared forefiet. (d) Kugutsmen should have all of his accounts reinstated and any lost sps addressed. (e) kieron should formally apologize to the Eve community and to Kugutsmen on the Eve Boards (f) Hellmar Petursson, the CEO of CCP, should apologize to the Eve community on these boards. (g) This thread should be moved to the General Discussions board and made a sticky.
This will alter the risk/reward calculus for any potential cheaters.
This is also in CCPs best interest because a player base needs to trust the company that runs/develops these games. Frankly, were CCP publicly held, I'd say that the failure to treat this with the utmost seriousness would be a violation of managment's duty to its share holders. Even though Eve is privately held, if anyone other than management owns shares, I think that they would still hold such a duty. As some one said above, games have cratered for less than this. So management is messing around with the only significant asset of the company by handling this as abysmally as they have.
GET A LIFE .... its just a GAME for Chrissake
posted by an alt so u can war-dec us |
Kedryn Caitin
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 01:15:00 -
[1855]
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
Honestly the best post on how to handle the dev(s) involved since this started. Still waiting to hear what will happen to the players though. We shall see how next week shapes up.
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:15:00 -
[1856]
Originally by: Klazy Luke
Originally by: Morgain dVher (a) t20 should be fired. (b) all involved board members of BoB should be banned. (c) BoB should have 50% of its corporate assets declared forefiet. (d) Kugutsmen should have all of his accounts reinstated and any lost sps addressed. (e) kieron should formally apologize to the Eve community and to Kugutsmen on the Eve Boards (f) Hellmar Petursson, the CEO of CCP, should apologize to the Eve community on these boards. (g) This thread should be moved to the General Discussions board and made a sticky.
This will alter the risk/reward calculus for any potential cheaters.
This is also in CCPs best interest because a player base needs to trust the company that runs/develops these games. Frankly, were CCP publicly held, I'd say that the failure to treat this with the utmost seriousness would be a violation of managment's duty to its share holders. Even though Eve is privately held, if anyone other than management owns shares, I think that they would still hold such a duty. As some one said above, games have cratered for less than this. So management is messing around with the only significant asset of the company by handling this as abysmally as they have.
GET A LIFE .... its just a GAME for Chrissake
posted by an alt so u can war-dec us
A game that take rl money if this was cards or checkers or old maid I would not care. I pay 50 bucks a month so iam going to care. This not a game to me but a investment.
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Allan Robertson
Gallente Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:19:00 -
[1857]
This is all very sick, t20 has only himself to blame, he cheated and brought all this upon him and CCP. Even though how much I believe this was a downright stupid thing to do, I don't want to see t20 lose his job in CCP over this, that is only my opinion the final word rests with CCP's CEO.
But sadly CCP has just been lowered slightly to the level of SOE sad days to learn of this news but as I said before don't crucify t20.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:19:00 -
[1858]
Originally by: Klazy Luke
GET A LIFE .... its just a GAME for Chrissake
posted by an alt so u can war-dec us
Too a Dev it is not a GAME it is a job.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Drake Mezcal
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:19:00 -
[1859]
!!Quote of the Century!!
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:21:00 -
[1860]
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
People feel cheated because they have been cheated.... If you can't see the ramifications of what the DEV(s) did or what the implications actually mean then ofc it won't bother you.
But anyone with atleast a small amount of common sense can see that much more has gone on here than a few free BPO's given away. There was a complete lack of trancparency up until 2 or 3 days ago and only now are we getting very shoddy replies from the DEV's.
I do feel sorry for the honest DEV's as they are seeing there hard work being picked apart because of one DEV(that WE know of).
If CCP don't take action now it will just get worse and worse and snowball.
I say C'mon CCP your reputation is at stake here it is already tainted don't allow it to be destroyed. Come clean and take tough actions.
EDIT Thinking about it I wouldn't be surprised if a couple or a few DEV's were actaully playing agianst eachother getting to involved and ended up cheating to win..... o.0 *MY Tinfoil hat theory*
Nah the DEV's are too professional to let themsleves get to involved so they would do anything to win to be sure.......
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Flaming Lemming
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:24:00 -
[1861]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
I have to admit, I LOL'd I'm just an Alt....but my main doesn't have a sig either.
a forum thread you need to read |
pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:27:00 -
[1862]
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
I have to admit, I LOL'd
rofl man the crow this guy must be trying to eat right now.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:32:00 -
[1863]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
Time to realise that this is not so much about t20 , but the coverup.
Time for people to realise that they should request and wait for more infos from CCP, before they blame BoB for all imaginable or even unimaginable things. At the moment there is no proof that there were any big issues going on that played a major role in BoBs achievements. I repeat: No proof ! The BPOs that were mentioned didn't play a major role and it's totally unclear, if the other BoBs knew, how those BPOs were obtained.
The EULA violations like account sharing / allowing someone else to log into your account for whatever purpose are not BoB-invented / BoB typical, the only big story about it is that devs maybe knew about it and didn't stop it.
So before you accuse BoB of being the uber-cheaters and having reached everything with cheating, you need proof. If CCPs information is too vague, then demand more. Some parts of the community seem like crybabies now. BoB has a lot more more valuable BPOs and surely most of them are obtained legally. I know people myself, who had several tech-2 BPOs, before they joined BoB. What do you think happens with them ? Yes, they probably build stuff for the alliance with it.
And some parts of the community seem like a lynch mob. Destroy BoB now, ask question later. Feel free to destroy BoB, but for the right reasons. If you have no proof that dev support played a major role in their success, then don't do like it's a fact. Looks like EVE becomes a Kindergarten. Children also cry loud to get what they want, no matter if it's reasonable or not.
If you want/need more infos, ask CCP for more ! If you don't get them blame CCP.
Ok, that was all from me. Now go on with the irrational crying about a conspiracy that never gave anyone ever a chance, if he wasn't in BoB. Have fun.
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Noraja
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:36:00 -
[1864]
Originally by: Klazy Luke
GET A LIFE .... its just a GAME for Chrissake
posted by an alt so u can war-dec us
This is not just a plain stupid game!
I'ts a hobby to most of the active playerbase!
What you'd say, if the referees during the Superbowl would trick a little bit, so that their preferred team take away the trophy?
I cannot tell how much I'm frustrated by this whole story.
I'm not going to quit, because it's too much fun to play this game, but I'll allways think of, how much undecovered things like this are going on. More clearly: Every big Ally in this game is suspiciious from now on, and I'll handle them as cheaters, until not proved otherwise
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:39:00 -
[1865]
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
According to what I have read, he didn't returned crap.
And the "one guy" ammount applies to 'how many got caught'. Neither of us can say it was the only one.
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Halkin
Locus Solus
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:42:00 -
[1866]
whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:44:00 -
[1867]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
This has made my sig the baddest of everyone's on EVE-O. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:45:00 -
[1868]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
Time to realise that this is not so much about t20 , but the coverup.
Time for people to realise that they should request and wait for more infos from CCP, before they blame BoB for all imaginable or even unimaginable things. At the moment there is no proof that there were any big issues going on that played a major role in BoBs achievements. I repeat: No proof ! The BPOs that were mentioned didn't play a major role and it's totally unclear, if the other BoBs knew, how those BPOs were obtained.
The EULA violations like account sharing / allowing someone else to log into your account for whatever purpose are not BoB-invented / BoB typical, the only big story about it is that devs maybe knew about it and didn't stop it.
So before you accuse BoB of being the uber-cheaters and having reached everything with cheating, you need proof. If CCPs information is too vague, then demand more. Some parts of the community seem like crybabies now. BoB has a lot more more valuable BPOs and surely most of them are obtained legally. I know people myself, who had several tech-2 BPOs, before they joined BoB. What do you think happens with them ? Yes, they probably build stuff for the alliance with it.
And some parts of the community seem like a lynch mob. Destroy BoB now, ask question later. Feel free to destroy BoB, but for the right reasons. If you have no proof that dev support played a major role in their success, then don't do like it's a fact. Looks like EVE becomes a Kindergarten. Children also cry loud to get what they want, no matter if it's reasonable or not.
If you want/need more infos, ask CCP for more ! If you don't get them blame CCP.
Ok, that was all from me. Now go on with the irrational crying about a conspiracy that never gave anyone ever a chance, if he wasn't in BoB. Have fun.
Yup theres no proof that BoB has done anything... theres also no proof they didn't do anything. This isn't an environment where people are innocent until proven guilty its an environment totally based on reputation of which BoB currently has a rather tarnished one even if through no fault of their own, and futher more any proof Offered up will never be belived at this point unless it was provided by some un-involved third party... somewhat impossible in this situation.
Theres a whole lot of frustration yes its frustration in this community at the moment they feel they've wasted their time by been a fair part of its community when things like this have happend and people need to vent this frustration so they are looking for targets. In reality most people know that the majority of BoB wouldn't have had a clue about any of this until it came out here, so I bet theres some pritty heated internal threads at the moment on BoB's forums. Trust is everything in a game like this once its gone theres pritty much nothing that can stop more accusations like this, this may not be the one that packs the punch but there will be others (possibly true possibly not we'll never know) and there will be more doubt and it will spiral and snowball and EVE will slip in the eyes of the larger community. People wouldn't give a toss if BoB owned all of the map if there was no doubt that they were all above board but theres always gonna be that question now, the same will be said for any major alliance that seems to be lucky or just good.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
Jorel
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:46:00 -
[1869]
Originally by: pumkinlumpkin
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
I have to admit, I LOL'd
rofl man the crow this guy must be trying to eat right now.
Saved for posterity... this will live on forever and ever and ever...
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Firetail
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:47:00 -
[1870]
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
Agreed. This is a fantastic idea, Molly.
Perhaps we cam get up T20s job should he decide that this is too strict a punishment? This kind of thinking is what would really help EvE and bring in new players into a better and more fun game with less corruption.
---
"When the Caldari Navy saw the drones, they laughed. It wasn't until the command ship's hull buckled and the coms that the screams started, and by then, no one could hear them." |
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:48:00 -
[1871]
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
I call BS. For me it's not the fact that it happened. It's they way that CCP tried to keep it silent, and denied any existence of it until hard evidence was provided. And now they are doing damage control. Instead of some decent communication with us (the players) this whole story gets demoted to a subforum noone ever reads.
I think this entire affair might show us how CCP is viewing their customers. And right now, I don't feel they appriciate them. At all. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:49:00 -
[1872]
Those of you wanting t20's head should consider the following. You have set the jobs of your friends and coworkers in danger, you have seriously damaged your companys rep, if CCP looses subscriptions over this (like many).. well imagine the consequences. Isn't it punishment enough to have to clock in at work at 7 or 8 every morning and look into the eyes of the very ppl who's job you've set in danger ?
About the rest yea, well, kieron I know you do your best but if they(BoB/t20) convinced you that there wasn't a cynonet in June you're all god damn naive. I'm pretty sure there was one in existence before EC-P8R (1 of April), if not, shortly thereafter.
Also whats with the different punishment for the same crimes ? Thats kinda annoying me the most. Same breach of eula should result in same punishment, even if you're Kugu or Molle or a 1 day old player.
Anyways, lots of props to you kieron sitting here on a Saturday evening answer questions, however, it still sounds like you're trying to cover something up. Thats what the major gaming sites thinks you're doing atm and denying it wont work. There's even been an article about it already.
EvE's my favourite game and I'm as upset as everyone else when some people hurt it. So get your act together, dig deeper, and lets hope EvE can take this blow and avoid such in the future.
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Soporo
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:51:00 -
[1873]
Quote: And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
Awesome post Molly, but a dude who spawns bpos oughta nowhere, one of them a high end one, doesnt have the moxy or patience to grind it the legal way. |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:52:00 -
[1874]
Originally by: The Armin Those of you wanting t20's head should consider the following. You have set the jobs of your friends and coworkers in danger, you have seriously damaged your companys rep, if CCP looses subscriptions over this (like many).. well imagine the consequences. Isn't it punishment enough to have to clock in at work at 7 or 8 every morning and look into the eyes of the very ppl who's job you've set in danger ?
Hell no. Tbh, if I where him, I'd resign now, and make it known to the community. On the other hand, CCP is covering his ass, so thats no longer nessecary. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Halkin
Locus Solus
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:54:00 -
[1875]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
I call BS. For me it's not the fact that it happened. It's they way that CCP tried to keep it silent, and denied any existence of it until hard evidence was provided. And now they are doing damage control. Instead of some decent communication with us (the players) this whole story gets demoted to a subforum noone ever reads.
I think this entire affair might show us how CCP is viewing their customers. And right now, I don't feel they appriciate them. At all.
they were trying to protect their reputation probably, if they tried to cover it up. normally a natural response from a person. as is being tempted by riches on offer.
lets witch hunt this to the max then, lets demand t20 resigns from CCP, gives up his income and publicly gets flogged outside CCP's HQ.
please. get a life you sad excuse for an individual and play the game (oh noes! its a game!)
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:56:00 -
[1876]
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
Actually, we can go on for a very, very, VERY long time. Look how long the Amarr whine thread lasted. This is going to make it seem like a single post.
It's up on all the gaming news sites. We may start seeing comics of the event from places like Penny Arcade (I can only hope.) Why, it could even turn into one of those multi-page stories that CCP used to love linking to on EVE-Online homepage - except, instead of talking about how immersive EVE is, it'll be a story on how important it is for MMO devs and employees to be ethical. They'll go through the GMs duping gold over at UO, I'm sure some WoW scandals. And then when they get to EVE, the paragraph will start out with 'But by far the most noteworthy example of dev corruption is...'
By the way, I'm not jumping on the 'fire t20' bandwagon. That's ludicrous.
Let him quit. Better yet, let's see him reassigned to the White Wolf division of CCP. Wouldn't that be a fitting solution? No more ever-so-important EVE dev account. No, t20 - now your job is to work on balancing vampire powers. And if a game comes out for that, well, you just go right ahead and make yourself a powerful vampire. Just think - you'll be able to work your way to head goth in some online coven, maybe slip them a few twinked out pieces of black lace clothing as a favor! Everyone will be impressed at what a great LARPer you are. And you won't be screwing up EVE anymore. It's a win-win.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:57:00 -
[1877]
ToxicFire? It's a weekend. Further, CCP should not be stampeded by HackFleet into a rash descision.
Jacque Custeau, rubbish. They had to investigate the claims. This takes time, regardless of the source. An "uproar" such as that spawned by HackFleet is purely spiteful. Kugutsmen could of gone to CCP direct - he chose instead to break the rules by posting dev identities publically. That is banable, and lo, he is banned. You cannot call for even and uneven application of the rules at the same time!
Danton Marcellus, they screwed the touries when they changed the rules of warping out midway through the first one. Just stop paying attention to them and refuse to participate, I have.
Elve Sorrow, it sounds like a bad descision was made. However, "fixing" it by firing T20 now would likely be illegal under Icelandic labour laws. It certainly would be here. This...ties CCP's hands on the matter. Should T20 be transfered back to the web cell and away from direct contact with the game? Certainly. (I think he SHOULD be fired, but I can appreciate if CCP litterally can't without an expensive wrongful dismissal lawsuit).
That people are actively hunting for dev names...everyone who's posted to that effect in this thread, if the character is revealed, should be banned. You're disgusting.
//Maya |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:57:00 -
[1878]
Originally by: Halkin
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
I call BS. For me it's not the fact that it happened. It's they way that CCP tried to keep it silent, and denied any existence of it until hard evidence was provided. And now they are doing damage control. Instead of some decent communication with us (the players) this whole story gets demoted to a subforum noone ever reads.
I think this entire affair might show us how CCP is viewing their customers. And right now, I don't feel they appriciate them. At all.
they were trying to protect their reputation probably, if they tried to cover it up. normally a natural response from a person. as is being tempted by riches on offer.
lets witch hunt this to the max then, lets demand t20 resigns from CCP, gives up his income and publicly gets flogged outside CCP's HQ.
please. get a life you sad excuse for an individual and play the game (oh noes! its a game!)
It might be a game, but since when is that an excuse for someone that works on it to drop all intergrity? Or for a compagny to support him in that? --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:58:00 -
[1879]
Originally by: ToxicFire ... Trust is everything in a game like this ...
That's it right there. Trust. I for one don't care about Bob or Bob's enemies. But the next time I jump through a gate and get ganked, there will be a nagging doubt in my mind, was that guy a dev, did that guy's GM buddy let him know I was jumping? How did that guy get in my POS? How did I get into this guys POS and why is it broken?
Do I trust the game now? |
Batar Fireheart
Minmatar Dark Destiny Inc. Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:59:00 -
[1880]
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
I am afraid it is not that easy. I myself and many others who have played eve since 03 honestly, are ****ed. It is not finished...
"MAY YOUR WALLET BE FULL OF ISK AND YOUR CANNONS BLESSED"
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:00:00 -
[1881]
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
This has made my sig the baddest of everyone's on EVE-O.
Man that worth more then a thousand bob sigs in the bob-ascn war
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:00:00 -
[1882]
Originally by: Novina Agrari Let him quit. Better yet, let's see him reassigned to the White Wolf division of CCP. Wouldn't that be a fitting solution? No more ever-so-important EVE dev account. No, t20 - now your job is to work on balancing vampire powers. And if a game comes out for that, well, you just go right ahead and make yourself a powerful vampire. Just think - you'll be able to work your way to head goth in some online coven, maybe slip them a few twinked out pieces of black lace clothing as a favor! Everyone will be impressed at what a great LARPer you are. And you won't be screwing up EVE anymore. It's a win-win.
now this made me laugh
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M Sullivan
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:01:00 -
[1883]
jees....this has to be the PR disaster from hell....the community want's blood, I'm looking into my crystal ball and see that they'll probably get it... The wrong decision was made when this was discovered, now that this is in the open, those who owns the company are bound to make their call to save face to protect their asset, I'm thinking T20 wasn't fired because of owning some shares but because of that he is an valuable asset to CCP and the game, so were looking at a very ****ty situation basicly...
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18 Rabbit
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:01:00 -
[1884]
The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:02:00 -
[1885]
Originally by: Maya Rkell ToxicFire? It's a weekend. Further, CCP should not be stampeded by HackFleet into a rash descision.
Jacque Custeau, rubbish. They had to investigate the claims. This takes time, regardless of the source. An "uproar" such as that spawned by HackFleet is purely spiteful. Kugutsmen could of gone to CCP direct - he chose instead to break the rules by posting dev identities publically. That is banable, and lo, he is banned. You cannot call for even and uneven application of the rules at the same time!
Danton Marcellus, they screwed the touries when they changed the rules of warping out midway through the first one. Just stop paying attention to them and refuse to participate, I have.
Elve Sorrow, it sounds like a bad descision was made. However, "fixing" it by firing T20 now would likely be illegal under Icelandic labour laws. It certainly would be here. This...ties CCP's hands on the matter. Should T20 be transfered back to the web cell and away from direct contact with the game? Certainly. (I think he SHOULD be fired, but I can appreciate if CCP litterally can't without an expensive wrongful dismissal lawsuit).
That people are actively hunting for dev names...everyone who's posted to that effect in this thread, if the character is revealed, should be banned. You're disgusting.
Just know that if I ever see you in space I'm coming in guns blazing. Pets like you make me sick. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:03:00 -
[1886]
Is this one the BPO in question? |
pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:03:00 -
[1887]
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
even if they dont the bad press alone and the damage control they are going to have to do will cost more the any dev worth.
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Halkin
Locus Solus
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:04:00 -
[1888]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Halkin
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Halkin whats done is done, its time to move on for everyone. i'm not particularly happy about it but thats it, finished.
how long can you go on about the injustice of it all? get back to what we all know and love which is playing the game.
I call BS. For me it's not the fact that it happened. It's they way that CCP tried to keep it silent, and denied any existence of it until hard evidence was provided. And now they are doing damage control. Instead of some decent communication with us (the players) this whole story gets demoted to a subforum noone ever reads.
I think this entire affair might show us how CCP is viewing their customers. And right now, I don't feel they appriciate them. At all.
they were trying to protect their reputation probably, if they tried to cover it up. normally a natural response from a person. as is being tempted by riches on offer.
lets witch hunt this to the max then, lets demand t20 resigns from CCP, gives up his income and publicly gets flogged outside CCP's HQ.
please. get a life you sad excuse for an individual and play the game (oh noes! its a game!)
It might be a game, but since when is that an excuse for someone that works on it to drop all intergrity? Or for a compagny to support him in that?
what exactly will make you happy? what needs to be done in your opinion? no matter what happens now no one else will be running this game except CCP, i'm kinda used to them be it good or bad.
i *really* hope they stop this kind of thing happening again, but where theres riches to be had tempation is always a problem.
and no i dont condone either the act or the way CCP handled it, but this horse is dead
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:04:00 -
[1889]
Originally by: Captain Hudson does even 95% of the playerbase know about this or care? i for 1 dont care, the 1 guy..1 guy !!! got caught and returened what he stole. BoB as a whole r not cheaters and i think anyone that says so are bitter little souls.
omg i cant belive that there are ppl who actualy belive that what t20 confessed is all that happened...
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VENOM2k99
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:05:00 -
[1890]
We all know that someone in BOB was involve, don't BS us. T20 should take his balls in his hand, and tell who was involve in BOB.
CCP should kick this guy out who risk the job of their co-workers and the GAME. Many have cancelled their accounts and it will continue until CCP punish BOB.
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
I hope they get their ass kicked in the war.
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:06:00 -
[1891]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan Edited by: Kalindra naskan on 11/02/2007 00:44:55
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Counterparty
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
We are customers, we have every right.
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
actualy we as paying custumers have every right because if we dont pay CCP is going bankrupt
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:06:00 -
[1892]
Originally by: Galea Wildfang You spineless alt can just stop here. People state their feelings, concerns and believes in this thread, most of them once, a few of them a little more often. And whatever you say (if anything at all) will not change that. So STFU. Too bad this thread is not located in the sell forum, else you'd receive a warning for each bump after the first (per day that is).
So I guess I'm not entitled to state my own opinions if they disagree with yours? So whos the one wanting to restrict discussion and silence anyone who disagrees with them? I like this 'debate'.. Its really been an enlightening read so far on the lengths some people will go.. And I'm directing that comment at all sides not just the ones who think CCP and BoB are in bed toghether and haxoring thier way to glory..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
farsycal
Paralex Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:06:00 -
[1893]
Originally by: VENOM2k99 We all know that someone in BOB was involve, don't BS us. T20 should take his balls in his hand, and tell who was involve in BOB.
CCP should kick this guy out who risk the job of their co-workers and the GAME. Many have cancelled their accounts and it will continue until CCP punish BOB.
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
I hope they get their ass kicked in the war.
You got owned I take it? How exactly does owning a few more bpo equate to them raping your sorry ass?
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:09:00 -
[1894]
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
No but the ones with multiple accounts will wind them down and and not play eve as much.... I have 3 accounts atm in 1 and half months I will have 1 account and will be a casual eve player.
If I dont have a fair shot at being the best at what I want to do in EVE then im sure as hell not going to waste my irl cash on it. Casual players ftw it seems
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:09:00 -
[1895]
Originally by: Liquid Vision Just know that if I ever see you in space I'm coming in guns blazing. Pets like you make me sick.
You're funny. I'm one of the people most hated by BoB in Eve. (Which I think is amusing as heck). But hey - 5 mil for Liquid Vision's corpse, with killmail and FRAPS, three times over. Because threatening me in-game has consequences. Even if it is also amusing
//Maya |
Dust Angel
Harvest System Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:10:00 -
[1896]
Maya, you are a tool.
mirel yirrin > "DU HAST VERBROKEN DAS FORUMERN RULEN! DU SWINE!" |
Kara Kaprica
Minmatar Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:12:00 -
[1897]
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
Update: 10 Feb at 0140 GMT I have created a thread where I will address questions from the community. This is so my responses do not become lost among the community replies. The thread will be locked so further answers will not be difficult to find.
You have replied that you wont be unbanning the account that brought this to light.
Because that person breached the EULA. They did it to show us that YOU GUYS BROKE IT ALSO.
Please unban that poor fellow, the End justifies the means
Always Outnumbered. Never Outgunned.
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:13:00 -
[1898]
Edited by: John Tasker on 11/02/2007 02:10:49
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
have 4 accounts 1 char sold industrail alt; will be sold when done contract work (end of subscription 11 april) freighter/carrier/dread alt; prolly be sold aswell (end subscription 11 april) kerushi i`ll keep, active or not, well see, training freighter so i don`t need the alt
from 4 to maybe even 1 and i`m not alone on this if i stay it will be on gtc with isk so no $$$ from my wallet
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kahle
Paralex Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:17:00 -
[1899]
Originally by: John Tasker Edited by: John Tasker on 11/02/2007 02:10:49
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
have 4 accounts 1 char sold industrail alt; will be sold when done contract work (end of subscription 11 april) freighter/carrier/dread alt; prolly be sold aswell (end subscription 11 april) kerushi i`ll keep, active or not, well see, training freighter so i don`t need the alt
from 4 to maybe even 1 and i`m not alone on this if i stay it will be on gtc with isk so no $$$ from my wallet
bye bye, i'll miss all four of you
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Angel Destroyer
Prison Break Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:18:00 -
[1900]
Edited by: Angel Destroyer on 11/02/2007 02:20:05 everyone makes mistakes misguided.....misjudged....during heat of battle.....I will of course get back to you on that particular issue! guess its your turn to think now guys what could I have done differently....? U seek Credibility... ask not unto others ect ect!
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Viki Girl
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:18:00 -
[1901]
Originally by: VENOM2k99
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
That Sabre BPO have to be the rarest and most unique BPO in game... oh come one, you seriously think that BOB only was able to kick every single aliances ass ad win all turnament because there were a Dev in one of it's corps ? Yeh right... sure..
I tell you a secret.. there were devis in ASCN as well.. tare are devs in goons and red, and even in LV... because as the devs said, they love this game and they play this game...
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:18:00 -
[1902]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
I really liked Kieron's answer to this question.... ....oh wait....nvm
Why hasn't this been answered yet?
and the wait goes on
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://www.picoodle |
Saskia Elko
Independant Union of Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:19:00 -
[1903]
Will t20 be making a guest appearence at this years fanfest? (if there is one)
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Bosie
Tenacious Warriors Acquiring Technology
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:20:00 -
[1904]
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
2 accounts here since 2003 and both of mine have been canceled over this. Like I said many pages ago if CCP do the right thing I will subscribe again. I am a firm believer in talking with your cash. The fact that this was covered up and only 6 months later is coming to light due to a whistle blower...
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston |
Redwolf
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:21:00 -
[1905]
and now this post/thread has mysteriously vanished from the eve-o forums.
*tinfoil*
---- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:23:00 -
[1906]
Originally by: Viki Girl
That Sabre BPO have to be the rarest and most unique BPO in game... oh come one, you seriously think that BOB only was able to kick every single aliances ass ad win all turnament because there were a Dev in one of it's corps ? Yeh right... sure..
The dev hosting the tournament and its judge is now known to be in Bob. He was handing out motherships and unique faction fitted battleships to his own alliance mates.
will we ever get to see a kierion post about that? you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:24:00 -
[1907]
Originally by: Viki Girl
Originally by: VENOM2k99
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
That Sabre BPO have to be the rarest and most unique BPO in game... oh come one, you seriously think that BOB only was able to kick every single aliances ass ad win all turnament because there were a Dev in one of it's corps ? Yeh right... sure..
I tell you a secret.. there were devis in ASCN as well.. tare are devs in goons and red, and even in LV... because as the devs said, they love this game and they play this game...
I will tell you a secret... ccp didn't tell the truth.... Bob didnt tell the truth. yes the dev love this game, and yes the play this game. But they dont pay for the game
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:24:00 -
[1908]
Originally by: farsycal
Originally by: VENOM2k99 We all know that someone in BOB was involve, don't BS us. T20 should take his balls in his hand, and tell who was involve in BOB.
CCP should kick this guy out who risk the job of their co-workers and the GAME. Many have cancelled their accounts and it will continue until CCP punish BOB.
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
I hope they get their ass kicked in the war.
You got owned I take it? How exactly does owning a few more bpo equate to them raping your sorry ass?
Seems like free T2 ammo goes a LONG way towards winning a war. Plus, you'd have to suspect that T20 was giving info to BOB the entire time. Also, let's not forget that a "spy" happened to drop a bunch of ASCN's POSes so BOB could clean up the front lines. Hrm. . .I wonder how that "spy" got access to ALL those POSes? Maybe because that spy's name was T20? Not beyond the realm of belief if you ask me or anyone else with half a brain.
Keep making excuses for CCP and BOB. . .I'm sure they appreciate it and will be sending you Hallmark cards for Valentine's day. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:26:00 -
[1909]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Galea Wildfang You spineless alt can just stop here. People state their feelings, concerns and believes in this thread, most of them once, a few of them a little more often. And whatever you say (if anything at all) will not change that. So STFU. Too bad this thread is not located in the sell forum, else you'd receive a warning for each bump after the first (per day that is).
So I guess I'm not entitled to state my own opinions if they disagree with yours? So whos the one wanting to restrict discussion and silence anyone who disagrees with them? I like this 'debate'.. Its really been an enlightening read so far on the lengths some people will go.. And I'm directing that comment at all sides not just the ones who think CCP and BoB are in bed toghether and haxoring thier way to glory..
sides? only if u like being cheated, anyway ur posts are nothing more than a patethic damage control.
any player that always played by the rules feels this as a dagger in the back.
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Zumaru
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:31:00 -
[1910]
The illusion of EVE being a game for gamers by gamers is now nothing but a pile of dust.
CCP has taken our money and will continue to take our money for the plain and simple fact that we are their entertainment. CCP can do whatever they please and by they I refer to CCP and whoever CCP favour at the time.
The passion we perceived CCP to have, to create a fair and balanced game does not exist.
Its a pity CCP could not keep the illusion going longer cause this was a really nice game to play but now EVE is shrouded with dishonesty and distrust.
PS; Those people with 'get a life, this is only a game' comments are probably those who benefited or still benefiting from this.
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Imuran
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:34:00 -
[1911]
Originally by: spurious signal
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Mollyanna FWIW, I'm a nobody, a rookie, and i'm already gone, for reasons have nothing to do with this.. (And all remaining assets will go towards financing the well deserved thrashing of BoD, now..) But a parting shot is more than deserved.
Why does this surprise anyone ?
This company was created by folk who were basically UO griefers, continues to support the whole play-dirty-to-win methodology, up to and including pretty severe metagaming by large alliances, where apparently most of the devs are - most of the new content in fact revolves around that world.
And this kind of thing wasn't going to happen, and often ? Get real.
While termination in t20's case is certainly more than justified, I think we should deliver unto him a worse punishment.
Break him to nooblet and make him start over... and WATCH him to make sure he doesn't cheat.
Because a Dev really needs to have the experiences of...
Having your cans endlessly flipped and being unable to do anything about it.
Being repeatedly suicide ganked for fun in highsec.
Being repeatedly wardecced for kicks by folks looking for easy kills.
Suffering the low profit margins and utter defenselessness of the Miner/Industrial careers at the low end of the SP food chain.
Being unable to make any profit whatsoever on transshipping trade goods.
Spending days on end trying to find somewhere, anywhere that isn't gatecamped to cross low-sec or enter 0.0, complete with repeated instapoddings while lagged from the jump.
Being laughed off by every corporation able to survive a wardec for not having years worth of SP.
Grinding for ages with an agent only to lose it in an eyeblink due to mission griefing.
Being wardecced back into the NPC corp and left to only your own resources and abilities in order to advance.
And then having to listen to the folks who wardecced you there screaming to have missions and NPC corps nerfed to cripple you even worse, or force you into their guns in "safe" highsec.
And absolutely, most especially, let him get a full hefty bite of the crap sandwich and uphill slope this game feeds to new players, especially non-pirates - and then a cold hard look at those mighty alliances lording it over him when he has zero chance of ever competing with, or even joining them.
And then let him reflect on how much of that is his own fault.
A better punishment you could not ask for, and who knows, the Devs might even see how broken their game is when you are NOT in a massive 0.0 alliance blobfest.
-Molly
/bow.
Take a good look at that post, Hellmar, and you'll begin to realize how little your development staff truly shares our "frustrations, joys, successes and failures."
Do you all even know the EVE you are developing anymore?
My god, QFT.
Sounds like a fine idea to me
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MinerGod
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:36:00 -
[1912]
Humm! Maybe even kieron doesn't care, hasn't posted anything for 3 hrs, maybe just went to sleep!
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:39:00 -
[1913]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 02:36:15
Originally by: Dust Angel Maya, you are a tool.
Of course I am, Dust. See: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html I quote your sig, "Proof or STFU". Because hackers and hackfleet ain't proven their accusations.
Liquid Vision, that's spy, no quotes. There are plenty of people who know who it was, and they're certainly no dev. Your tinfoil hackfleet hat is crooked.
//Maya |
Thews Mortaza
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:40:00 -
[1914]
Originally by: Redwolf and now this post/thread has mysteriously vanished from the eve-o forums.
*tinfoil*
Hmmm, "I hope for your sake it's an accidental figuring-out of, otherwise if you're actively hunting dev identities, I can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die ... " - very interesting. Anyone know of any whistle-blowers been podded rather alot, lately?
(Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit ! |
Erin Athena
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:41:00 -
[1915]
Simple statement to all downplaying what was done:
T20 did more. He has admitted to nothing that wasn't already proven. Its like the police finding your bootmarks in the mud where the body was buried and a muddy shovel in your shed and you admit you dug the hole but it wasn't you who did the killing. Cause of death was being hit on the head with a blunt object, the patheologist says it was probably a shovel.
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Dollar49er
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:51:00 -
[1916]
OK here we go
1. We know there was some very serious wrongdoing 2. CCP needs to do something to address the imbalance that was caused in game 3.Part of that problem and it has been an issue for other reasons is T2 BPO's
Souloution: Say sry for the screw up and cheating by granting every account a random T2 BPO
Flame it or praise it i dont care but i think CCP should give it serious consideration. Tell em what u think -- i want you to == ya or nay let em have it.
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Medical One
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:53:00 -
[1917]
Originally by: farsycal
Originally by: VENOM2k99 We all know that someone in BOB was involve, don't BS us. T20 should take his balls in his hand, and tell who was involve in BOB.
CCP should kick this guy out who risk the job of their co-workers and the GAME. Many have cancelled their accounts and it will continue until CCP punish BOB.
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
I hope they get their ass kicked in the war.
You got owned I take it? How exactly does owning a few more bpo equate to them raping your sorry ass?
Give me a Fuking break, unless your 3 years old in RL you would know theres a HELL of alot more bob got from all this, then some fuking worthless t2 ammo bpos.
You have to be a retard if you think otherwise.
CCP not everyone is as stupid as this idot.
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Milesofun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:53:00 -
[1918]
Cynonet info is located here, If you delete the link, i have to assume it's to cover up this mess, please look at the information. It seems to ref the net while t20 was in a certain corp. but why would a capital ship fleet commander need to know how to move a capital ship fleet? Please explain this small discrepence . also it's an interesting read on a few other subjects. fyi i petioned to see if this was acceptble but no response. http://www.kugutsumen.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2 good luck dev's please answer all the question this information open's unless your going to try another coverup |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:54:00 -
[1919]
Originally by: Dollar49er Tell em what u think -- i want you to == ya or nay let em have it.
My stance all along but it seems if your not in agreement with the people who are taking this issue to heart then your branded a bob/dev alt..
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:55:00 -
[1920]
Originally by: Stoli Vodka Edited by: Stoli Vodka on 11/02/2007 00:44:05 If I provide a BoD kill that uses the following:
* Flameburst Precision Light Missile * Phalanx Rage Rocket * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile * Spike L * Sabre
can I petition my losses? And if not is there any action I can take?
I petitioned my lost to a RKK Sabre. I think we all should do the same.
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Fabienne Runestar
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:57:00 -
[1921]
Originally by: Dust Angel Maya, you are a tool. Linkage
Wow you must be a Bob alt posting that sig. Anyway, There has been Proof, so we don't have th STFU you go now round eye.
--
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Dust Angel
Harvest System Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:59:00 -
[1922]
Originally by: Fabienne Runestar
Originally by: Dust Angel Maya, you are a tool. Linkage
Wow you must be a Bob alt posting that sig. Anyway, There has been Proof, so we don't have th STFU you go now round eye.
actually, i like the sig. tool.
mirel yirrin > "DU HAST VERBROKEN DAS FORUMERN RULEN! DU SWINE!" |
Director Stoned
Band of Developers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:02:00 -
[1923]
With the upcoming universal war I like to know what assurances we have from CCP that Bob won't cheat/hack/spoit thier way to victory with the remaining devs they have in thier command structure?
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D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:05:00 -
[1924]
Originally by: Halkin
they were trying to protect their reputation probably, if they tried to cover it up. normally a natural response from a person. as is being tempted by riches on offer.
lets witch hunt this to the max then, lets demand t20 resigns from CCP, gives up his income and publicly gets flogged outside CCP's HQ.
please. get a life you sad excuse for an individual and play the game (oh noes! its a game!)
How about instead of protecting their reputation they try to protect their customers? I'd be pretty happy if t20 resigned actually, the flogging is not necessary. IMO he forfeited his income the minute he crossed the line between CCP employee and cheating ********. IRL people lose their incomes for f-ing their customers.
Newsflash.... I have a life and I *PAY MONEY* to play this game, for fun. Little did I know I was getting oz-ed in the process.
CCP to Customers: "Squeel little piggies!" ----------------- #begin Sig: Everything I say is the official word of me, my corp and my alliance. Anyone who says otherwise is full of themselves. :D
Hillary Clinton on Exxon: "I want to take |
Philounet
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:09:00 -
[1925]
CCP response so far proves very disapointing, it reeks of double standard, unfairness and outright lies.
The way things have been handled clearly shows that a continuous "sweeping it under the rug" methodology has been applied till the uproar was too much to bear.
It was clearly showned in the evidence freely available over the net that the top management of BOB and RKK was involved in the cheat (if you are looking for this info, check up the name of the guy who was banned for being the wistleblower).
This info was provided to CCP, and CCP had the means to investigate and uncover the cheats...if they wanted to that is. Their answer was to ban the whistleblower
What do we get ? a contorted appology form a cheater that ought to be banned from the game for life, a delayed removal of "some" BPOs with no retroactive effect, and wise guys that ought to be also banned for life still in control of BOB and RKK.
Remember that the dev that got banned was in charge of BOB capital fleet, that his promoting to this position is well detailed in some 3rd party forum, that BOB's management has come well aware of his status as dev, that BOB has continually said proof or stfu over the now public breaches of EULA.
The dev ought to be fired (what would prevent other devs to just do the same if the only threat is a slap on the hand ?)
Those who have knowingly enjoyed the benefits of that dev ought to be permabanned (and not only 1 or 2 accounts, their IP is known to CCP)
An estimation of the benefits of sales of BPC and items from the disclosed BPOs should be done and substracted from the corps owning the illicit BPOs. Would that come to a negative value a quick look at corp asset/isk transfers would solve the matter.
I already know of ppl disposing of their accounts, some others taking a step back from EvE to see what comes out of the investigation, it CCP wants to keep its player base they'd better come out with the good answer, and fast.
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iulixxi
Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:11:00 -
[1926]
Edited by: iulixxi on 11/02/2007 03:08:55 Interesting thread. I am trying to be as much impartial as i can but some things arent clear, for example:
01.
Originally by: kieron
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
How can you proove that no one in BoB knew about the illegality ?
02.
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: Numerous EVE Community members in various forms -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why was a player banned for this? Why are you banning the whistleblower? Free the guy that brought all this to light!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
By directly interfering with the game and not givving some of the players a "fair-play" (especialy that u knew about this and done nothing) u broke the EULA and the terms of service , no ? - I mean t20 was your emploee so it represents your company , right?
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dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:11:00 -
[1927]
Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia 4. Devs playing Tarkan Kador's initial post as well as his follow-ups cover it very well imho. Alliance politics is metagaming and that is sufficiently independent of game mechanics that you really don't need to be high ranking member of some high profile group to "get a feel" for the game. Oveur himself stated one of most memorable aspects of his TQ involvement was politics. He spoke about it in past tense though. Why? Could it be that he realized you just can't keep yourself impartial enough once your actions can affect thousands of people, some of which can come as close to friend as internet allows? Or because bag was bursting at the stitches (Jun 06<Fanfest) and it was time to bail? Another smokescreen? Anyway, immersion is not needed Helmar. Sorry, you got that wrong.
I thought everyone involved in politics in the early days knew who Oveur's char was, or at least figured it out after that interview shown on EVE-TV. The reason he talks about it in paste tense is very obvious: He didn't work @ CCP at that time (as in when into politics) - and as Kieron says in his own thread that char was pulled out when he got the job.
Redwolf, not very strange that thread was removed, heh. Yea, he's a bit aggressive, but what's said in it is something ppl rly should think about. One could also think about that it seems quite obvious that Diana knew the dev identity... Being a forum *****, I sure thought of that thread right away when this started - so t20 had to step up as it was obvious which dev it was.
Personally I'm quite shocked about this... I've always been damn critical and 'been sure' that there's been and always will be small hints and such by accident - but illegal BPOs really was a shocking thing (and wth, it's just 'crap' BPOs, if you're gonna do some cheating why not do it properly). And the question why the BPOs weren't taken out of game in the summer sure is a good question. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:15:00 -
[1928]
Has this thread beat the longest record yet?
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Brixer
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:17:00 -
[1929]
Edited by: Brixer on 11/02/2007 03:14:35 These T2 BPOs aint't the most profitable in this game you know.
Being a dev you would also know that Radar signatures when doing exploration would give those data interfaces used in invention. Some of us had to famle around blind, while devs could scoop in thos 2-5 Billions BPCs. How long would you have to produce sabres to gain 5B ?
I got one of those interface BPCs as the rumor about the profitable Radar signatures was starting to bleed through to the masses and sold it @ 2.5B. I had no clue ccp would boost the drop by 10X, and took a huge risk selling it as I wanted to try invention. I bet someone knew the change was coming tho.
What CCP have to do is make more of this game documented. Devs will always have a huge advantage getting the newest/hottest info first, and might use it to give an alliance an edge.
Keep the rest of the players better informed. That would level out some of the difference.
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Logi3
EVE Corporation 1631
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:18:00 -
[1930]
Can't belive this, CCP has lost all respect from me. Not for only letting this happen. But for letting T20 keep is job, are your guys dumb or something?
I would expect this from a game like Ragnarok...
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Tab'Fren
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:20:00 -
[1931]
IF THIS WAS DISCOVERED IN JUNE 2006, WHY HAVE THEY CONTINUED TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE BPOs UNTIL FEBRUARY?
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:21:00 -
[1932]
iulixxi,
"How can you proove that no one in BoB knew about the illegality?"
Meaningless question. Bans with no evidence would be just as bad as the current events. Unless there is evidence, it'd be wrong to ban them. (And there IS evidence all of Hackfleet hacked the client, why are they still playing?)
And it's not illegal, it's against the developer code of conduct. There is a difference.
dalman, yes, it was kinda obvious :)
Brixer, ALLWAYS check on SiSi before you do anything like that.
//Maya |
Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:22:00 -
[1933]
Originally by: Mariko San
Originally by: Audri Fisher One more note. BoB just had a sizable chunk of there senior leadership forcibly removed. Kick em when they are down I say!
Where did you hear this?
There were multiple dev accounts in senior BoB positions. They all got exposed as dev accounts. ONly 1 it seems ever did anything wrong. However the characters all got deleted. BoB will recover, but it will take some time.
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pumkinlumpkin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:24:00 -
[1934]
Originally by: Why'dyou HitMe
Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 11/02/2007 00:46:34 Effect so far?
http://myeve.eve-online.com/serverStatusGraph/ServerStatus.aspx?gid=1
Nil.
Man when did NIL = nearly a billion
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iulixxi
Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:26:00 -
[1935]
Originally by: Maya Rkell iulixxi,
"How can you proove that no one in BoB knew about the illegality?"
Meaningless question. Bans with no evidence would be just as bad as the current events. Unless there is evidence, it'd be wrong to ban them. (And there IS evidence all of Hackfleet hacked the client, why are they still playing?)
And it's not illegal, it's against the developer code of conduct. There is a difference.
dalman, yes, it was kinda obvious :)
Brixer, ALLWAYS check on SiSi before you do anything like that.
Maybe for u , for me too , but for some of the players (ex: thowse who believe that bob knew about this) is not a meanles question. I am sure they can proove it right? I mean no one can proove that BoB knew/or not except CCP ...
"And it's not illegal, it's against the developer code of conduct." - what do u ment by that ? What developer ? A dedicated one or t20 code of conduct ?
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:29:00 -
[1936]
Originally by: The Armin Those of you wanting t20's head should consider the following. You have set the jobs of your friends and coworkers in danger, you have seriously damaged your companys rep, if CCP looses subscriptions over this (like many).. well imagine the consequences. Isn't it punishment enough to have to clock in at work at 7 or 8 every morning and look into the eyes of the very ppl who's job you've set in danger ?
You mean the same people who didn't care enough to eve remove the fruits of his cheating from the game until they were forced to do so 6 months after the fact? The same people who gave him a wink wink nudge nudge slap on the wrist?
As I said, the sequence of events and the continued lying proves that CCP has no genuine care about this. They don't actually care about preventing misconduct or protecting the integrity of our gameplay, they care about their pocketbooks. They did nothing until they had no choice but to do something and they have revealed nothing more than is neccesary while continuing to lie to us.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:30:00 -
[1937]
I'm sure this has been pointed out, but it bears repeating: Does anyone else find it interesting that this thread is sticky'd in the least-viewed forum rather than General where it belongs? And that the 'last post' that shows up for this forum in the forum list makes it look like this isn't actively being discussed?
Much as CCP would like it, this issue isn't going to go away by pushing it to the side. For the sake of their game, they should start handling this issue decisively - otherwise the fallout is going to obscure their Kali phase 2 info, whenever they get around to it.
By the way, as for the 'BoB never suspected the dev who supplied them with, at the least, 6 T2 BPOs was doing anything fishy' line, doesn't that leave us with only two real explanations? Namely..
1: They're liars 2: They're just really stupid
I suggest all of us who have faith in the integrity of BoB's leadership rally to their defense - to what is, in fact, their only defense.
Say it with me now. "BoB doesn't cheat. They're just really, really stupid."
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:33:00 -
[1938]
Originally by: Novina Agrari
Let him quit. Better yet, let's see him reassigned to the White Wolf division of CCP. Wouldn't that be a fitting solution? No more ever-so-important EVE dev account. No, t20 - now your job is to work on balancing vampire powers. And if a game comes out for that, well, you just go right ahead and make yourself a powerful vampire. Just think - you'll be able to work your way to head goth in some online coven, maybe slip them a few twinked out pieces of black lace clothing as a favor! Everyone will be impressed at what a great LARPer you are. And you won't be screwing up EVE anymore. It's a win-win.
Ok that made me LMAO.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:35:00 -
[1939]
Originally by: Novina Agrari
By the way, as for the 'BoB never suspected the dev who supplied them with, at the least, 6 T2 BPOs was doing anything fishy' line, doesn't that leave us with only two real explanations? Namely..
1: They're liars 2: They're just really stupid
I suggest all of us who have faith in the integrity of BoB's leadership rally to their defense - to what is, in fact, their only defense.
Say it with me now. "BoB doesn't cheat. They're just really, really stupid."
Presuming of course that the information Kugustmen posted was true, keeping in mind that we now have pretty damn good reason to believe it is, the RKK brass knew about this. It seems entirely unclear whether they knew he cheated to get the assets he got but they definitely knew who he was.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Katja Frostbane
Amarr The Valkyries
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:39:00 -
[1940]
Edited by: Katja Frostbane on 11/02/2007 03:38:21 Edited by: Katja Frostbane on 11/02/2007 03:36:12 CCP,
You lost. Your "chosen men" lost. Better yet, the simple fact that you will not answer simple questions makes you a laughing stock. Accounts(5) cancelled! So much for three plus years.
Originally by: Novina Agrari
I suggest all of us who have faith in the integrity of BoB's leadership rally to their defense - to what is, in fact, their only defense. Say it with me now. "BoB doesn't che |
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:39:00 -
[1941]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 03:36:44 Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever, without a full investigation then there's no hope for you. A criminal who plee-bargains has what he says investigated, not taken as gospel.
And he hasn't been arrested and his "evidence" properly looked at. Yet.
//Maya |
Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:42:00 -
[1942]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever, without a full investigation then there's no hope for you.
Uh, isn't t20 pretty much a hacker himself? By that logic, shouldn't we refuse to believe anything HE says, ever, without a full investigation? So when he says 'Okay, so I hacked the game to give myself 6 T2 BPOs, but I swear that's it!', we should all say, 'What a bunch of bull. You can't be trusted.' Right?
Right.
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:44:00 -
[1943]
Originally by: Tab'Fren IF THIS WAS DISCOVERED IN JUNE 2006, WHY HAVE THEY CONTINUED TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE BPOs UNTIL FEBRUARY?
This question needs to be quoted until we get an answer.
The rest than can blow off with BS platitudes. This they cannot deny as it is part of their explanation, and is absolutely unacceptable by every standard of propriety imaginable.
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Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:50:00 -
[1944]
Originally by: Viki Girl
That Sabre BPO have to be the rarest and most unique BPO in game... oh come one, you seriously think that BOB only was able to kick every single aliances ass ad win all turnament because there were a Dev in one of it's corps ? Yeh right... sure..
Here's the problem... we'll never know, will we. There were many more alligations other than BPOs, which I personally believe are accurate, too - considering there is no reason that the proof that was posted (and denied repeatedly before being proven true) about numerous infractions was all made up... oh except for this one that wasn't.
Originally by: Viki Girl
I tell you a secret.. there were devis in ASCN as well.. tare are devs in goons and red, and even in LV... because as the devs said, they love this game and they play this game...
Proof or STFU.
Oh, and if it is true, AND you have proof that those devs cheated for them, too, then I'll be right back here making the same arguments about them. ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:51:00 -
[1945]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 03:36:44 Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever, without a full investigation then there's no hope for you.
I don't know for certain whether those logs are valid or not but consider the following;
CCP at this point has less credibility than the supposed "criminal hacker." He could have known once piece of information and faked everything else but I know at least one thing he "uncovered" was true. Nothing CCP has told us so far has been true (unless you count something they didn't tell us for 7 months and then were forced to tell us and then continued to lie about). While you need to take a leap of faith to believe anything CCP says at this point, all I have to do is look at the facts laid out for all the world to see in order for that "hacker"'s credibility to find purchase.
So turn about is fair play Maya. Anyone who takes anything CCP says at face value is a fool, you included. You should feel like a moron for telling people to place more trust in a company that has cheated them and continues to lie to them then in someone who has had his information actually corroborated.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:53:00 -
[1946]
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Tab'Fren IF THIS WAS DISCOVERED IN JUNE 2006, WHY HAVE THEY CONTINUED TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE BPOs UNTIL FEBRUARY?
This question needs to be quoted until we get an answer.
The rest than can blow off with BS platitudes. This they cannot deny as it is part of their explanation, and is absolutely unacceptable by every standard of propriety imaginable.
i dunno, why was RA allowed to keep all the isk they made exploiting angel complexes? probably because no one thought ppl would notice and that it would eventually just blow over.
it did blow over, ppl stopped giving a crap, this too will pass. ccp says 'oops' , ccp says 'oops, sorry' , 2 weeks later all topics get locked refering to the incident citing 'policy' and its all over.
of course, the difference between the RA incident and the BoB incident is (outside of dev misconduct.)
-RA actually built their empire off select backwater systems in teh southeast.
-BoB would still be what they are today without the incident. They could have EASILY bought what was given to them and rewards they recieved were minimal (dare i say negligable) at best on the scale that their alliance is.
but in my book, not properly punishing ppl for unfair ingame advantages is just as 'misconduct' as handing s**t out for free
not that it wasn't wrong, but i think there have been many injustices greater than this issue. its funny really, you think if he was gonna abuse his power he'd have pursued something worthwhile, not some ammo and a dictor bpo.
but you watch... its 'we are so sorry' this week and then it will be "nothing to see here, move along" after the saber rattling is over.
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:54:00 -
[1947]
Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 03:52:34 Maya:
Kugetsuman may have violated the EULA, but let me give you what I consider a real life analogy. Several years ago a guy stole a car. As he was driving around, he opened the glove compartment and found pictures of a couple (a mother and father)sexually abusing their children. Car thief called the police and came clean.
Car thief got immunity. Kids were rescued. Parents went to jail for a long time.
Kugetsman is now a known commodity to CCP. They can monitor him constantly for his next EULA violation. And then can his ass.
For what he did, he should be given immunity at this point. They can catch him the next time.
***
As to t20, I agree with those who have said that he's only admitted to what could be proven. Generally, criminals aren't caught the first time they commit a crime. No one knows what else he did. However, he should be treated as if he had been helping one set of players over another for a long time. The player base assumes it.
This whole thing violates the foundation of dev/player trust. That is why I suggested such a harsh remedy as to t20 (firing), and to the alliance (forfeiture of 50% of corporate assets).
Right now kieron's locked posts (see top) aren't doing anything to assuage that violation.
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Faith Black
Minmatar Rolls Roids
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:55:00 -
[1948]
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Seems like free T2 ammo goes a LONG way towards winning a war.
No, and every pvp'er, who uses t2 ammo knows it.
T2 ammo is available in masses and relatively cheap. Everyone, who can use it uses it, when he wants to, no matter, if he knows someone with the BPO or not. I was living deep in 0.0 and had always quake L and tremor L in the cargohold of my sniper tempest, although I had to buy in Empire. It's standard equipment, when you equip tech-2 guns, no matter if you can produce it yourself or need to buy it from the market.
I think BoBs reason for success is, that they have good organization and attract many pvp vets.
Some alliances have maybe over 1000 members, but only 100 hardcore pvp pilots, who participate in alliance ops and 50 of them with t2 skills. In BOB it's surely less 'dead-weigth' like it's often called, so a higher number of pvp-fanatics and with more skillpoints on average and more competent fleet commanders. Besides that, vets (= old players) tend also to have several skilled alts like for R&D, production and all kind of support things or even capital ship alts etc.
Take a few hundreds of those top skilled pilot, who love pvp, good leadership and organization, declare war on a alliance, with maybe only 1/3 of those top skilled hardcore pvp pilots, but a lot of carebears and newbies or people, who rather do something else than fight and have a weaker organization, then that alliance gets steamrolled.
I know there are other corps and alliances with extremly good pilots, many of them probably better than many BoB pilots, but surely not so many experienced pvp pilots in one place combined with top organization like in BoB.
That's my explanation for the 'pwnage', not dev support. BoB seems more like if you take the most skilled and dedicated pilots from some other pvp alliances and make a new alliances with it. => dead average alliance. ------ Who wants to be Caldari, if he could be 1337 instead ? Minnie 4tw ! ^^ |
Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:55:00 -
[1949]
While I think it is a mistake to continue to employ t20, I wouldn't readily demand his head either. It seems akin to stealing from the company to be honest, and no matter whether it being cash from the till or digital concepts, it's still improper. Also, one must remember that CCP is a company that trades in digital concepts. It would be the same as me walking into my store and punking some PCs from the shelf. It's what my company trades in. What t20 nicked is what CCP trades in.
Ultimately what irks me most out of this scenario is that CCP for the past 6 months has basically sat on this information and knowingly done nothing. It took a third party to reveal the issue and finally force the hand of CCP, which honestly makes me wonder what else is being hidden. Kugutsumen or whatever revealed a lot of information and while I do not endorse his means or support his reinstatement, one cannot argue the fact that he is the one that ultimately ushered the change. I personally am aware that other information he leaked was equally accurate which makes me wonder about other improprieties that he cited which have not been explained by Kieron or anyone else at CCP for that matter.
Kieron's response on the matter was:
"We apologize for not resolving this when originally discovered, yes it is our fault. However, short of rolling back Tranquility to the time the first illegal BP was used for production, there is no way for us to estimate, let alone reverse the impact the BPs have had in the time that has passed."
found here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473490&page=1
Which ultimately boils down to:
Sorry but tough ****. The point is they knew someone had messed up yet still chose not to reverse the action and consequently allowed one party to benefit at the expense of all the other paying customers in this little Online Odyssey .
I have faithfully paid into this game for 3 years now. Since release. And while I have only one account, the frustration I feel over the corruption and inaction of people I have paid over 500 dollars, the same 500 dollars thousands of others who also have not benefited from this stupidity, is immense.
Kieron, Helmar, t20 et. al. : To be blunt, what you did was stupid. It was a stupid choice that will cost you many paying customers. You invalidated the trust of people who gave it to you and it will take a lot to earn that trust from some again. There is no excuse for what you did. There is no rational that can be made to justify the choice you made, be it to violate your role as a developer in the alliance or your choice to do nothing 6 months ago when you learned of the impropriety.
You broke your own code of ethics, your own User agreement that you hold to all customers. What good are ethics if the enforcing body has none of their own?
My frustration is not based on one alliance or one group of people. My frustration is not vindictive and I don't want to cause pain to those who benefited, because I know that there are many good and honest and hard working people in BoB, as hilarious and ironic as I see some of their blustering by some of their principle proponents on the forums.
My frustration is solely towards you CCP, and rightfully so. You screwed up, and your continued response illustrate how little that really seems to matter.
Your apology is very hollow. Very empty. When there are real changes to how things are run, true disclosure, and honest answers, then perhaps.. and only then, will an apology mean anything.
Good luck.
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:03:00 -
[1950]
Novina Agrari, breaking a code of conduct is not breaking the law. Just as someone breaking the EULA does not end with them thrown in jail. CCP are investigating. If you don't like the result, your recourse is to quit. As I've said...I've not believed in CCP's impartiality for a long time. But it dosn't bother me THAT much.
Baun, no, CCP is a legitimate company and I have heard of no criminal charges against them. Your statement is ridiculous hackfleet propaganda, and serves only to damage the company and the game you evidently hate so much. Can I have your stuff?
Morgain dVher, there is no need for an "analogy". He is a criminal hacker. The evidence has has is, at best, mitigation. There is such as thing as personal responsability. You might make assumptions, I do not - and collective punishment of 50% of assets is entirely disproportionate. The maximum those BPO's could of generated, yes. And the banning of everyone who was in goonfleet at the time they hacked the client.
//Maya |
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:04:00 -
[1951]
And we shouldn't all forget the other Dev/BoB player outed by Mr. K: Lord Stone.
Lord Stone left BoB in December 2006, apparently forced to do so by CCP. But as he left he assured them that he would still be active on the forum, was "still RKK" but just "a bit active atm."
Sooo, that gives me a lot of comfort that CCP employees take these issues seriously--yeah he was forced out of BoB nominally, but still considered himself a member, just a bit inactive until things blew over.
Given these issues, I really want to hear how CCP plans to address/monitor illicit information flows between Devs and their corp buddies (and not just BoB). Internal Affairs has its work cut out for it!
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:09:00 -
[1952]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 04:06:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun, no, CCP is a legitimate company and I have heard of no criminal charges against them. Your statement is ridiculous hackfleet propaganda, and serves only to damage the company and the game you evidently hate so much.
What was wrong with my statement.
Here are the facts:
1) CCP becomes aware of this dev misconduct and did nothing more than remove the characters involved from the game (although I would actually be shocked if they removed them instead of changing the portraits and names).
2) Kugutsumen uncovers information about dev misconduct and other cheating.
3) CCP conducts an "investigation" into something they already had full knowledge of. Meanwhile CCP deletes all threads relating to the matter and bans the person responsible for bringing the information to light.
4) After continued community pressure CCP admits something they have know for 6 months and finally takes the absolute bare minimum action they must take to remedy the situation.
5) CCP discloses essentially no information beyond what the public already knew about the incident. CCP baldly lies to the community about what their cheating developer knew and did. CCP fails to ban people for the same acts that allowed them to seek vengeance against the party that "caused" (note; CCP actually caused) these problems for them.
How can you actually say CCP, which has been caught in a lie and coverup concerning one of their current employees cheating in this game, has more credibility then a player who has said nothing that has been shown to false and has said things that have been shown to be true? You are blind.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Running Mann
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:09:00 -
[1953]
Edited by: Running Mann on 11/02/2007 04:06:07 I am confused, this keeps going from 70 and 71 pages down to 69 as I read on. Are posts being deleted as fast as they are made?
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:11:00 -
[1954]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Novina Agrari, breaking a code of conduct is not breaking the law. Just as someone breaking the EULA does not end with them thrown in jail. CCP are investigating. If you don't like the result, your recourse is to quit. As I've said...I've not believed in CCP's impartiality for a long time. But it dosn't bother me THAT much.
Actually, my recourse is to stick around and laugh at their pathetic attempts to sweep this under the rug. I have no intention of quitting so fast - I've been around awhile!
And really, for the purposes of honesty, does the difference between 'criminal hacker' and 'hacker' really mean a thing? Heck, compare the two! One guy admitted to his hacking upon the instant. Another one required a whole lot of pressure after failed damage control. And what was CCP's response to his hacking? 'Shut down your website and hide this information, and maybe we'll let you have your characters back.'
In this case, criminal hacker > 'legal hacker', frankly.
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:12:00 -
[1955]
Originally by: Faith Black
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Seems like free T2 ammo goes a LONG way towards winning a war.
No, and every pvp'er, who uses t2 ammo knows it.
T2 ammo is available in masses and relatively cheap. Everyone, who can use it uses it, when he wants to, no matter, if he knows someone with the BPO or not. I was living deep in 0.0 and had always quake L and tremor L in the cargohold of my sniper tempest, although I had to buy in Empire. It's standard equipment, when you equip tech-2 guns, no matter if you can produce it yourself or need to buy it from the market.
I think BoBs reason for success is, that they have good organization and attract many pvp vets.
Some alliances have maybe over 1000 members, but only 100 hardcore pvp pilots, who participate in alliance ops and 50 of them with t2 skills. In BOB it's surely less 'dead-weigth' like it's often called, so a higher number of pvp-fanatics and with more skillpoints on average and more competent fleet commanders. Besides that, vets (= old players) tend also to have several skilled alts like for R&D, production and all kind of support things or even capital ship alts etc.
Take a few hundreds of those top skilled pilot, who love pvp, good leadership and organization, declare war on a alliance, with maybe only 1/3 of those top skilled hardcore pvp pilots, but a lot of carebears and newbies or people, who rather do something else than fight and have a weaker organization, then that alliance gets steamrolled.
I know there are other corps and alliances with extremly good pilots, many of them probably better than many BoB pilots, but surely not so many experienced pvp pilots in one place combined with top organization like in BoB.
That's my explanation for the 'pwnage', not dev support. BoB seems more like if you take the most skilled and dedicated pilots from some other pvp alliances and make a new alliances with it. => dead average alliance.
Funny that, considering on the logs Kugut posted Diana was about to cream in his pants when he heard about all the BPOs he was getting and he specifically mentioned the Spike L.
Please, if T2 ammo is so inconsequential and whatnot, hows about you buy me a T2 Ammo BPO, preferrably Large. I swear when you hand it over I'll tell you it's no big deal and that you aren't missing out on much.
It's just amazing the lengths of self-denial that people will go to in order not to have to break their comfort zone. Too many EVE capsuleers don't wanna believe that CCP is dirty. Before we knew for certain T20 was a lying cheat that rabbled on and on about how everything a hacker says can't be trusted and whatnot. Now that they have to face the fact that CCP is dirty the levels of cognitive dissonance are skyrocketing. People are subconciously having to adjust their morals/integrity/etc. to make CCP cheating = ok because they don't want to have to admit they were wrong and being taken advantage of. Really, it's a pretty interesting concept, you guys should go wiki or google it. I would post a sig but the CCP Naz1s would just delete it. Oh well. |
Cyrus Ageis
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:12:00 -
[1956]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever...
There's a flaw in your logic Maya; CCP believed his hacked logs enough that they BANNED him.
One of two things is true: 1) Kugustmen is a fraud. His hacking skills are questionable. His "proof" is fake. Therefore, he did NOT do anything illegal; un-ban his accounts. 2) Kugustmen is a hacker. All his logs are correct. Everything he said was/is true. He stays banned. Oh, and by the way, since what he said *IS* gospel, ban all the accounts in BoB he's quoting as running cyno-nets and sharing accounts.
You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe him or you don't. If you believe him, more bans need to be passed out. If you don't, un-ban him for posting fake info and therefor NOT breaking the EULA, as he therefore didn't hack.
But know this, CCP believed him. More bans are in order due to that fact.
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Cyrus Ageis
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:14:00 -
[1957]
Originally by: Running Mann Edited by: Running Mann on 11/02/2007 04:06:07 I am confused, this keeps going from 70 and 71 pages down to 69 as I read on. Are posts being deleted as fast as they are made?
We've all noticed this. We're thinking a forum-node crash is emminate.
OMG! CCP is node crashing the forums!!! HAX! HAX! PETITION!
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Darkstar BP
Caldari eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:15:00 -
[1958]
The list of issues is long and it's really bad. I'm afraid your management information system is going to give you some VERY VERY bad subscription cancellations numbers on monday (yes, you can add my 2 cancellations as well)
Quick review on some of the main issues: - The posting of RL information by SirMolle. Either you have a EULA that means something, and is applied consistently, OR you have a tool to mask your favouratism by waving selectively the EULA. - The "Communist Model" of parts of RKK and EVOL are blatantly in violation of the EULA, both in letter and spirit. Any structural cross-use of what I would call material accounts (for me anything but the cyno frig) - I hope that LeMonde has no, or has never had any chars in any BoB corporation. If there are any issues with the championships this company is truly in deep deep trouble. - Review of BoB's setups and conduct in relogging after node crashes. - You have the chance to fire t20 now on the lie of him not knowing about cynonets, if account tracking reveals that the BoB cynonet was already (partially) available. Take that chance. - Future limitations to and better in-depth tracking of Dev conduct
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:19:00 -
[1959]
More to the point Novina, the same tactics employed by many alliances in this game (not surprisingly most notably by BoB themselves), pretexting, which is to say misrepresenting yourself in order to gain access and trust, is actually an actionable offense in many countries the same way hacking is (the relative severity might be different but if you want to go down that road you have already lost).h
No one condones hacking. No one should condone pretexting (out of game, as in game no one owns anything to pretext concerning). It is especially hilarious for me to watch the same people that spend most of their time in game illegally misrepresenting their way into access in other people's out of game resources flailing about to find moral high ground from which to look down on the actions of someone who has outed them.
Highlighting the illegedly nefarious way in which information was obtained is no more than attempt to pull the wool over our eyes and cloud the real issue here; CCP has cheated us and continues to lie to us. We now know that what they say cannot be trusted.
The ball is in their court to address this. Bash K all you want for whatever reason you want, these are identifiably separate issues.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
Executor Shiro
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:20:00 -
[1960]
Originally by: Cyrus Ageis
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever...
There's a flaw in your logic Maya; CCP believed his hacked logs enough that they BANNED him.
One of two things is true: 1) Kugustmen is a fraud. His hacking skills are questionable. His "proof" is fake. Therefore, he did NOT do anything illegal; un-ban his accounts. 2) Kugustmen is a hacker. All his logs are correct. Everything he said was/is true. He stays banned. Oh, and by the way, since what he said *IS* gospel, ban all the accounts in BoB he's quoting as running cyno-nets and sharing accounts.
You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe him or you don't. If you believe him, more bans need to be passed out. If you don't, un-ban him for posting fake info and therefor NOT breaking the EULA, as he therefore didn't hack.
But know this, CCP believed him. More bans are in order due to that fact.
Maya just got 0wned ...
So, is Maya a developer? or a bob-alt? ... oops; thats right! I forgot you can be both now.
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Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:20:00 -
[1961]
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 04:06:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun, no, CCP is a legitimate company and I have heard of no criminal charges against them. Your statement is ridiculous hackfleet propaganda, and serves only to damage the company and the game you evidently hate so much.
What was wrong with my statement.
Here are the facts:
1) CCP becomes aware of this dev misconduct and did nothing more than remove the characters involved from the game (although I would actually be shocked if they removed them instead of changing the portraits and names).
2) Kugutsumen uncovers information about dev misconduct and other cheating.
3) CCP conducts an "investigation" into something they already had full knowledge of. Meanwhile CCP deletes all threads relating to the matter and bans the person responsible for bringing the information to light.
4) After continued community pressure CCP admits something they have know for 6 months and finally takes the absolute bare minimum action they must take to remedy the situation.
5) CCP discloses essentially no information beyond what the public already knew about the incident. CCP baldly lies to the community about what their cheating developer knew and did. CCP fails to ban people for the same acts that allowed them to seek vengeance against the party that "caused" (note; CCP actually caused) these problems for them.
How can you actually say CCP, which has been caught in a lie and coverup concerning one of their current employees cheating in this game, has more credibility then a player who has said nothing that has been shown to false and has said things that have been shown to be true? You are blind.
Baun, one thing you said here actually irks me quite a bit. Not in a bad way, because I agree.
What the hell kind of "investigation" was going on when later Kieron admits that they've known since June?
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:21:00 -
[1962]
Titan, the kind of investigation where you discuss how to minimize the impact of the fact that you demonstrably don't care one lick about your customers.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:22:00 -
[1963]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Morgain dVher, there is no need for an "analogy". He is a criminal hacker. The evidence has has is, at best, mitigation. There is such as thing as personal responsability. You might make assumptions, I do not - and collective punishment of 50% of assets is entirely disproportionate. The maximum those BPO's could of generated, yes. And the banning of everyone who was in goonfleet at the time they hacked the client.
lol
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Ltpred
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:22:00 -
[1964]
This is how i see things according to what CCP Posted.
You knew about this at least 6 months ago. and you did nothing.
people posted someone's real life infomation on the forums. and you did nothing to them. others have been banned for less.
i like it when companies put all this PR forward saying they will do whats best for the game and what not. and then when that time comes. they don't follow policy or their own EULA.
it seems like you want a game where you can lie/cheat and do whatever you like. well it seems eve-online is that game. so you can enjoy it. I won't ever come back now that ccp has shown their true colors.
Subscription Status:Active Cancellation Pending Expires:24.February.2007
Later
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Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:23:00 -
[1965]
Originally by: Baun Titan, the kind of investigation where you discuss how to minimize the impact of the fact that you demonstrably don't care one lick about your customers.
No kidding man...
BTW, be around more. We have a friendly TS server, I'm looking into Vanguard. No one can have my stuff.
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Gyny
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:27:00 -
[1966]
Anyone seen the BoB forum warriors? I really miss those "BoB are Developers / Developer Client" joke sig posts they had...
guess they were not just jokes afterall, huh?
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:28:00 -
[1967]
Originally by: Baun Titan, the kind of investigation where you discuss how to minimize the impact of the fact that you demonstrably don't care one lick about your customers.
Thats called a Public Relations Damage Control Meeting.
Notice the disturbing lack of Senior producer replies? How hard is it to get a flight to Iceland on a Friday at the last minute anyway.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Executor Shiro
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:28:00 -
[1968]
Originally by: Gyny Anyone seen the BoB forum warriors? I really miss those "BoB are Developers / Developer Client" joke sig posts they had...
guess they were not just jokes afterall, huh?
BoB forum warriors? oh you're looking for Maya.
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:36:00 -
[1969]
As a general rule of thumb, I refuse to stir up animosity against anyone, but this whole situation leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I, for one, really want to know why the BPOs were not removed when the cheating was found out. I also want to know why it was all denied until denial was no longer a valid strategy. Every post that I have read from a Dev in this game (until recently) seemed to decry cheating and cheaters. They say they hate everything we players hate when it comes to unintended results of mechanics (logging off in combat and nanodomis anyone?). How is it possible to believe anything coming from that same staff that INTENTIONALLY and WILLFULLY denied something they KNEW to be true from June of last year until now? And again, why were the BPOs NOT REMOVED IN JUNE? This entire thing stinks to high heaven and the longer it sits the smellier it gets. One thing that I haven't heard mentioned yet: EULAs are TWO-SIDED. When you click saying that you agree to the conditions within, CCP also agrees to conditions: one of which is an IMPARTIAL(with respect to customers) enforcement of the EULA. When CCP itself violates the EULA, the EULA then becomes null and void. The EULA is a binding contract WHICH MUST BE UPHELD BY BOTH PARTIES TO BE IN FORCE. No this doesn't give anyone else the right to cheat, but it does mean that CCP should address the rest of these issues and enforce their own policies. Anything else is a clear breach of contract by discrimination against non-CCP affiliated players.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:36:00 -
[1970]
Originally by: Running Mann Edited by: Running Mann on 11/02/2007 04:06:07 I am confused, this keeps going from 70 and 71 pages down to 69 as I read on. Are posts being deleted as fast as they are made?
It is probably an issue with your local cache, the forum's ability to keep up and a setting in your browser related to updating pages or not based on time-date stamps. A work around is to use this link, ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=71) and change the 71 to 72 when the page reaches 30 posts.
-AS |
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:37:00 -
[1971]
Originally by: Viki Girl
Originally by: VENOM2k99
Now it's clear for all of us that BOB took avantage, for many of us, they dominate because of that.
That Sabre BPO have to be the rarest and most unique BPO in game... oh come one, you seriously think that BOB only was able to kick every single aliances ass ad win all turnament because there were a Dev in one of it's corps ? Yeh right... sure..
I tell you a secret.. there were devis in ASCN as well.. tare are devs in goons and red, and even in LV... because as the devs said, they love this game and they play this game...
That would explain why alliances have all T2 bpos. Many people even won the "lottery" 2 and 3 times. Random lottery, yeah right. |
Rodney Caston
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:44:00 -
[1972]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger That would explain why alliances have all T2 bpos. Many people even won the "lottery" 2 and 3 times. Random lottery, yeah right.
Hrm, don't say that; if that were true then I will have wasted the last few months doing the daily missions for all 4 of my research agents...
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Sochard
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 04:55:00 -
[1973]
Originally by: Faith Black
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Seems like free T2 ammo goes a LONG way towards winning a war.
No, and every pvp'er, who uses t2 ammo knows it.
T2 ammo is available in masses and relatively cheap. Everyone, who can use it uses it, when he wants to, no matter, if he knows someone with the BPO or not. I was living deep in 0.0 and had always quake L and tremor L in the cargohold of my sniper tempest, although I had to buy in Empire. It's standard equipment, when you equip tech-2 guns, no matter if you can produce it yourself or need to buy it from the market.
I think BoBs reason for success is, that they have good organization and attract many pvp vets.
Some alliances have maybe over 1000 members, but only 100 hardcore pvp pilots, who participate in alliance ops and 50 of them with t2 skills. In BOB it's surely less 'dead-weigth' like it's often called, so a higher number of pvp-fanatics and with more skillpoints on average and more competent fleet commanders. Besides that, vets (= old players) tend also to have several skilled alts like for R&D, production and all kind of support things or even capital ship alts etc.
Take a few hundreds of those top skilled pilot, who love pvp, good leadership and organization, declare war on a alliance, with maybe only 1/3 of those top skilled hardcore pvp pilots, but a lot of carebears and newbies or people, who rather do something else than fight and have a weaker organization, then that alliance gets steamrolled.
I know there are other corps and alliances with extremly good pilots, many of them probably better than many BoB pilots, but surely not so many experienced pvp pilots in one place combined with top organization like in BoB.
That's my explanation for the 'pwnage', not dev support. BoB seems more like if you take the most skilled and dedicated pilots from some other pvp alliances and make a new alliances with it. => dead average alliance.
Thats 1 of my problems with BoB - they are insatiable Isnt it enough to be the best - It seems that they have to cheat to get the god status
And CCPs reaction is only to say sorry for the inconvenience. But to be honest we are talking about something that was 6 month ago ... we did nothing ... but c'mon - we all enjoy this game ....
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deadmaus
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:57:00 -
[1974]
Originally by: pumkinlumpkin
Originally by: Flaming Lemming
Originally by: Drake Mezcal !!Quote of the Century!!
I have to admit, I LOL'd
rofl man the crow this guy must be trying to eat right now.
I cant' decide which is funnier, this one or "Proof or STFU"
What is sig? |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:00:00 -
[1975]
The problem, Baun, is you're taking the word of a self-admitted criminal.
"uncovers"? No, don't weasle. "Criminally hacks".
And he alledged things beyond what CCP allready knew, as you well know. You are deliberately slamming CCP like a little child, wailing away because you can vindictively. If you really believe at that tinfoil hat hackfleet propaganda, can I have your stuff?
Or is Kugutsumen blackmailing you? See, THAT sounds just as viable...
"pretexting, which is to say misrepresenting yourself in order to gain access and trust,"
Absolute rubbish. Have you bothered to look at the actual definition of what pretexting is? Nobody has accused BoB of stealing the RL details and phone records of others. Social engineering is another tactic, and one which you also used in the past. It would be a "norm of the game" (which IS legally significant), as technical hacking is not.
Are you a friend of Kugutsumen? Are you a party to his actions? These questions must now be asked, frankly. It's JUST as reasonable as what you are saying. And no, the only court which should apply is the one of law, to Kugutsumen.
Novina Agrari, then you are still fully supporting CCP's cashflow. That sound fishy if you're that annoyed by their actions.
"And really, for the purposes of honesty, does the difference between 'criminal hacker' and 'hacker' really mean a thing?"
Er...so breaking the law is now "really mean a thing"? I'd call it a very serious difference indeed! Yes, T20 should be fired. Kugutsumen should be doing 5-10 in jail. Minor difference there, lady.
Cyrus Ageis, he broke the rules by publically revealing a developer's character. They would of broken their OWN rules to permit him to stay in the game. Meanwhile, you call for their application to others. So you want the devs to be uneven handed, as long as it's the way your opinion sways? Oh come on!
I'd be happy to see the people cheating in BoB banned. Also most of the leadership of every other alliance in the game (because ebaying and character sharing remains rampent) AND all of goonfleet and ISSN banned for hacking the client. Even handed, even handed!
CCP did not "believe" him. An investigation showed one of his accusations was true. One. Saying that this somehow validates the other stuff he has said is complete rubbish, it ALL needs investigating with the same care.
Executor Shiro, I do not and have not ever worked for CCP. I am an enemy of BoB, and have been since shortly after they kicked me out. Your accusations, goon, are rubbish. I am anti-goonfleet, and constrast the treatment BoB are getting to the NON-banning of the entireity of goonfleet for client hacking.
Shameless Avenger, please be looking up the definition of "random".
//Maya |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:01:00 -
[1976]
Edited by: The Libertine on 11/02/2007 04:58:17 "Proof or STFU!" - BoB
"Looks like BoB is the one who has STFU." - Everyone Else
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:02:00 -
[1977]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 04:58:45 My that was a quick edit on your part :)
//Maya |
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:06:00 -
[1978]
Originally by: Maya Rkell The problem, Baun, is you're taking the word of a self-admitted criminal.
"uncovers"? No, don't weasle. "Criminally hacks".
Do you have any arguments that aren't based on an Ad Hominem?
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:14:00 -
[1979]
Edited by: Booster Junkie on 11/02/2007 05:22:15
Originally by: Maya Rkell wall of text
Looks like someone is competing with dbp for worst poster on EVEO.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:17:00 -
[1980]
Azured, try reading my post. Thanks.
Baun,
"My outrage is based solely on things we certainly do know"
You're reaching when you take one word Kugutsumen has posted which has not been proven by a full investigation as gospel.
Social engineering as part of the game would have to fill several criteria to be illegal - and being "hurt" in Eve is in NO WAY under current British, American or Icelandic law an injury or loss. And CCP would be most displeased if you were able to prove otherwise...I'm sure you can work out the reason why.
Technical and social hacking are treatedly very differently under the law. Maybe it shouldn't be so..but they are. You might want to ask someone who studies computer law before you reply to that one, incidentally.
"Are you taking the ****?"
Of course I am. Just as much as you are.
//Maya |
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The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:17:00 -
[1981]
Edited by: The Libertine on 11/02/2007 05:21:20
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
While this is entirely speculation ...
I would hope that it was true; it would mean we only have to worry about Dev's getting away with violating the rules and helping alliances cheat; during times when mergers and sensitive business deals are taking place at CCP.
That should reduce the amount of dev-misconduct to at most, only a few months out of the year.
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D1ck Jones
Old Detroit Crime Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:17:00 -
[1982]
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Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:18:00 -
[1983]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
I was talking with a corp-mate on the phone an hour ago, telling him about this thread. He knew nothing about it. It took him 10 seconds to reach the same conclussion. Can't prove it, but it does make sense indeed. |
D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:26:00 -
[1984]
Originally by: Maya Rkell (snip) CCP did not "believe" him. An investigation showed one of his accusations was true. One. Saying that this somehow validates the other stuff he has said is complete rubbish, it ALL needs investigating with the same care. (snip)
See, here's the ***** of the situation....they knew this accusation was true, yet they LIED and put paying customers through the pretext of an "investigation". Mr. K might be a criminal.... I don't care cause he doesn't have my credit card number (yet lol if he is an actual hacker) and 3+ years of my time.
You are choosing to put faith in a company which has lied to you and stolen your trust, much like a hacker might..... I've taken the blue pill and I can't get back into the matrix. CCP you suck ----------------- #begin Sig: Everything I say is the official word of me, my corp and my alliance. Anyone who says otherwise is full of themselves. :D
Hillary Clinton on Exxon: "I want to take |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:27:00 -
[1985]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Social engineering as part of the game would have to fill several criteria to be illegal - and being "hurt" in Eve is in NO WAY under current British, American or Icelandic law an injury or loss. And CCP would be most displeased if you were able to prove otherwise...I'm sure you can work out the reason why.
Good thing for you it's not illegal for a developer to pretend to be a normal player on the forums.
"The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE." - Yan Song |
Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:28:00 -
[1986]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
...
I'd be happy to see the people cheating in BoB banned. Also most of the leadership of every other alliance in the game (because ebaying and character sharing remains rampent) AND all of goonfleet and ISSN banned for hacking the client. Even handed, even handed!
Agreed. Just like I said to the other claims of "There are devs in all corps!!!" If you can prove it and prove they cheated, bring out the hammer and start swinging.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
CCP did not "believe" him. An investigation showed one of his accusations was true. One. Saying that this somehow validates the other stuff he has said is complete rubbish, it ALL needs investigating with the same care.
o rly?? They did not believe him? They KNEW he did it six months ago - THEY ALREADY CAUGHT HIM!!! An investigation proved this true? You mean, they took a month to figure out how to spin this, correct? No need to investigate something you already figured out months ago and did nothing about.
And, as I said before, can you honestly give a reason why Kug would post several things with only one being accurate? I can see it now - ooh, I found this horrible thing, I think I'll post it! But first, let me spend vast quantities of time making up fake logs of other things, because one instance of a dev cheating just won't have the same effect of two or three, right? ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:30:00 -
[1987]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 05:31:51
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
"My outrage is based solely on things we certainly do know"
You're reaching when you take one word Kugutsumen has posted which has not been proven by a full investigation as gospel.
What are you talking about? Virtually everything I have posted has been based on things already admitted by CCP and simple pure common sense that relies in no great part on K's information.
I have suggested that his credibility is higher than CCP's at this point, because it is. I have suggested that by virtue of this fact we might want to contemplate that some of his other information is also correct, but I haven't needed to assume any of this to be just as angry as I am right now.u
Quote:
Social engineering as part of the game would have to fill several criteria to be illegal - and being "hurt" in Eve is in NO WAY under current British, American or Icelandic law an injury or loss. And CCP would be most displeased if you were able to prove otherwise...I'm sure you can work out the reason why.
Thanks for not reading.
I have nothing against any in-game spying, lying or what have you. The moment that spying reaches outside of the game onto websites, forums, killboards and teamspeak servers a line has been crossed. You gain access to very real resources paid for by very real money *owned* by very real people by lying.
While there can be no real injury in EVE except to CCP (as no one but CCP owns any property in EVE) there are very real injuries that take place as soon as you start using someone else's servers. From the most obvious TS server spammage to the most subtle information taking these injuries are real and the conduct is not legal.
Quote:
Technical and social hacking are treatedly very differently under the law. Maybe it shouldn't be so..but they are. You might want to ask someone who studies computer law before you reply to that one, incidentally.
Incidentally, I am a law student.
The line that is usually drawn between those two is between a crime and a tort. Both kinds of conduct are illegal the only difference is that in some countries the governments have decided the former is so much more dangerous than the latter than they have criminalized it rahter than allowing society to self regulate through pursuit of civil action. You would probably have a pretty tough time finding an injury sufficient to sustain a civil cause of action, but that doesn't have much to do with the underlying conduct only with the demonstrable value of what was stolen.
Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
Drakma
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:33:00 -
[1988]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
While I think that CCP has it's fair share of idiots, I would hope they weren't that completely inept.
-----------------
Gekidoku is recruiting |
Mordracki
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:33:00 -
[1989]
To say that this is disappointing is an understatement, and CCP's actions and the timeline reflect very poorly on the company, to say the least. I own 2 companies irl, and anything of this nature would result in immediate termination. Whether or not it was "legal" or "illegal" or had a negligible impact on the game, wars, alliances, etc..., disregards the fact that incident is really an "integrity" issue, or lack thereof. T20's actions clearly demonstrate a character flaw and CCP's attempt to sweep things under the rug from the beginning. Welcome to the world of subjective/relative morality. This thread will go on and on with people arguing little points about impact/effect, while missing the main point.
I've been following this thread for a day or two now, and honestly, I am hesitant to post because I didn't want any personal repercussions for myself or for my corp mates. Unfortunately, since the corruption has bee revealed at the developer level, no assurances by CCP hold much credibility. Besides, I don't think I'm going to be around much longer after this event, and I'm a bit saddened because there really isn't anything else out there that I'm interested in playing. Then again, CCP is counting on that to reduce any subscription losses to a minimum.
|
Static Ga'lraith
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:35:00 -
[1990]
We need to get this guy to solve all our problems. ----------------
|
|
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:35:00 -
[1991]
D'an Y'eal, "You are choosing to put faith in a company"
No, I'm not. I haven't believed they've been even handed for a while. This is just the first time people have really seemed to CARE about it. And I'm VERY annoyed at the credence a hacker's getting for it.
The Libertine, you're funny.
Yan Song, the hacker's accusations were quite broad. Sure, CCP knew about what T20 has admited to. That was a small subset of the accusations.
"can you honestly give a reason why Kug would post several things with only one being accurate?"
Sure. He's a criminal with a vested interest in hurting CCP. Or possibly paid by goonfleet to pick on someone else. Or... the thing is, it's not so much "reason" as a detailed investigation of each seperate part would be needed anyway. Even with the best will in the world, mistakes can be made and things taken out of context. And I don't believe the best will applies here.
//Maya |
Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:35:00 -
[1992]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
I really liked Kieron's answer to this question.... ....oh wait....nvm
Why hasn't this been answered yet?
and the wait goes on
and on.....
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://www.picoodle |
Dracolich
North Star Networks Cruel Intentions
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:36:00 -
[1993]
Originally by: Baun What was wrong with my statement.
Here are the facts:
1) CCP becomes aware of this dev misconduct and did nothing more than remove the characters involved from the game (although I would actually be shocked if they removed them instead of changing the portraits and names).
2) Kugutsumen uncovers information about dev misconduct and other cheating.
3) CCP conducts an "investigation" into something they already had full knowledge of. Meanwhile CCP deletes all threads relating to the matter and bans the person responsible for bringing the information to light.
4) After continued community pressure CCP admits something they have know for 6 months and finally takes the absolute bare minimum action they must take to remedy the situation.
5) CCP discloses essentially no information beyond what the public already knew about the incident. CCP baldly lies to the community about what their cheating developer knew and did. CCP fails to ban people for the same acts that allowed them to seek vengeance against the party that "caused" (note; CCP actually caused) these problems for them.
How can you actually say CCP, which has been caught in a lie and coverup concerning one of their current employees cheating in this game, has more credibility then a player who has said nothing that has been shown to false and has said things that have been shown to be true? You are blind.
I think this post sums it up nicely.
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Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:37:00 -
[1994]
Originally by: Mordracki To say that this is disappointing is an understatement, and CCP's actions and the timeline reflect very poorly on the company, to say the least. I own 2 companies irl, and anything of this nature would result in immediate termination. Whether or not it was "legal" or "illegal" or had a negligible impact on the game, wars, alliances, etc..., disregards the fact that incident is really an "integrity" issue, or lack thereof. T20's actions clearly demonstrate a character flaw and CCP's attempt to sweep things under the rug from the beginning. Welcome to the world of subjective/relative morality. This thread will go on and on with people arguing little points about impact/effect, while missing the main point.
I've been following this thread for a day or two now, and honestly, I am hesitant to post because I didn't want any personal repercussions for myself or for my corp mates. Unfortunately, since the corruption has bee revealed at the developer level, no assurances by CCP hold much credibility. Besides, I don't think I'm going to be around much longer after this event, and I'm a bit saddened because there really isn't anything else out there that I'm interested in playing. Then again, CCP is counting on that to reduce any subscription losses to a minimum.
Excellent post.
Especially the part about subjective/relative morality.
Spot on my friend. Objective truth ftw.
Also, you're right about credibility which is one of my, and my corpmate's issues as well, which will unfortunately lead several of us away as well. While that remains to be seen, I am definitely looking into other gaming options at this point, for the simple reason that why play a game where who knows what is really going on and the company making said game has little to no credibility.
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Steely Dhan
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:37:00 -
[1995]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Kugutsmen could of gone to CCP direct - he chose instead to break the rules by posting dev identities publically. That is banable, and lo, he is banned.
You didntn't even bother to read the post's on his website did you.. He went to them first and they banned him so the truth wouldn't get out.
As for the rest of your dribble..what are you talking about? |
Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:37:00 -
[1996]
Originally by: Maya Rkell And I'm VERY annoyed at the credence a hacker's getting for it.
Awww poor baby, did the evol bad hacker steal your thunder? We all feel so bad now...
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:38:00 -
[1997]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Azured, try reading my post. Thanks.
I have been reading your posts, and they all seem to come back to the same argument (paraphrasing): "K is a hacker!"
Also, its Azerrad, not Azured.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:39:00 -
[1998]
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
While I think that CCP has it's fair share of idiots, I would hope they weren't that completely inept.
I'm not sure that I'd call it inept; picture what would have happened if, just prior to signing a merger agreement (or whatever it was), CCP fired a leading dev for cheating, and has the fan base erupt into uproar. I suspect that they thought, "Gee, it's only some crappy BPOs, it doesn't really matter, it's not worth losing our big deal over..."
-BoB Delenda Est- |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:44:00 -
[1999]
Originally by: Maya Rkell The Libertine, you're funny.
Maya: Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the BoB party?
--- "The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE." - Yan Song |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:45:00 -
[2000]
Originally by: Maya Rkell D'an Y'eal, "You are choosing to put faith in a company"
No, I'm not. I haven't believed they've been even handed for a while. This is just the first time people have really seemed to CARE about it. And I'm VERY annoyed at the credence a hacker's getting for it.
The Libertine, you're funny.
Yan Song, the hacker's accusations were quite broad. Sure, CCP knew about what T20 has admited to. That was a small subset of the accusations.
"can you honestly give a reason why Kug would post several things with only one being accurate?"
Sure. He's a criminal with a vested interest in hurting CCP. Or possibly paid by goonfleet to pick on someone else. Or... the thing is, it's not so much "reason" as a detailed investigation of each seperate part would be needed anyway. Even with the best will in the world, mistakes can be made and things taken out of context. And I don't believe the best will applies here.
Stop acting like a slobbering Oaf...
So what I get is that you are saying it was all made up....
So he was just lucky at guessing exactly how this non-disclosed incident went down?
I have a word you should look up, obtuse.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:46:00 -
[2001]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
While I think that CCP has it's fair share of idiots, I would hope they weren't that completely inept.
I'm not sure that I'd call it inept; picture what would have happened if, just prior to signing a merger agreement (or whatever it was), CCP fired a leading dev for cheating, and has the fan base erupt into uproar. I suspect that they thought, "Gee, it's only some crappy BPOs, it doesn't really matter, it's not worth losing our big deal over..."
Wow, I did not think about that.
This might be better placed in a separate thread, but think about the possible repercussions;
Facts: 1) CCP knew about something that could damage their credibility with the player base and potentially ravage their subscriber pool and lower the net worth of their company.
2) At the time CCP learned of this they were conducting a merger with another company.
3) CCP did not diclose the information,
Now maybe this means:
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally liable and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Don't want to go down that path, but it really does not sound too far fetched (though it doubtless will to some).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:47:00 -
[2002]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 05:46:42 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 05:45:27
Originally by: The Libertine
Originally by: Maya Rkell The Libertine, you're funny.
Maya: Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the BoB party
I was a member of BoB in the past (before any of these accusations, I believe - you can check my character history, I have one account and this is the only character in a player corp with 2 or more people). I was kicked out of BoB. Shortly afterwards, I became an enemy of BoB. While I was in BoB, I was never asked to commit an act against the EULA.
I detest BoB. I detest goonfleet more.
I think that's pretty clear :) (and I don't have and can't FLY capships, funny man... (although I'm about 6 hours away from a freighter should I ever actually want one...))
MrDisposable, no, that's not what I am saying. Please go back and read my posts. Project nothing...
//Maya |
The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:49:00 -
[2003]
Originally by: Maya Rkell I was a member of BoB in the past (before any of these accusations, I believe - you can check my character history, I have one account and this is the only character in a player corp with 2 or more people). I was kicked out of BoB. Shortly afterwards, I became an enemy of BoB. While I was in BoB, I was never asked to commit an act against the EULA.
I think that's pretty clear :)
Yeah, it's clear you didn't have a cap ship at the time.
--- Since the BoB CynoNet violated the account sharing rules in the EULA; why haven't all those BoB accounts been banned yet? |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:50:00 -
[2004]
Oh also.... if what he did is not illegal "according to LOCAL laws" then he did not break the EULA did he?
Has it been proven that he resides in a country where what he did was a crime?
OH and btw, many things even taking place on these forums could be illegal. Not sure if slander would apply to the forums.
If you address only one more thing Maya, why is it that Sir Molle is not perma banned given he breached the EULA as witnessed by the entire eve community?
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Sporker
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:50:00 -
[2005]
Originally by: Faith Black I think BoBs reason for success is, that they have good organization and attract many pvp vets.
Nothing to do, obviously, with the fact they can pretty much guarantee success, thus attracting many of those experienced players 'in the know' about the futility of opposing a dev-backed alliance ? |
Hemroid
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:53:00 -
[2006]
Originally by: Baun
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
|
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:56:00 -
[2007]
Originally by: Hemroid
Originally by: Baun
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
I guess.... the fantasy crap bugs the hell out of me... maybe that new battlestar galactica MMO coming out or any other sci-fi game. CCP better straighten up before competition comes by and railroads them.
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The Libertine
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:56:00 -
[2008]
Originally by: Hemroid Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
Nah,
We should all go play Pirates of the Burning Sea; that way we can fight against the BoB/CCP Developers on an even playing field. --- Since the BoB CynoNet violated the account sharing rules in the EULA; why haven't all those BoB accounts been banned yet? |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:56:00 -
[2009]
Originally by: MrDisposable If you address only one more thing Maya, why is it that Sir Molle is not perma banned given he breached the EULA as witnessed by the entire eve community?
I don't know. Ask CCP (or don't...they won't answer, per their policy). As I said, I don't expect them to be fair.
And yes, what Kugutsmen did was illegal in his locality. Checked that.
//Maya |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:57:00 -
[2010]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Hemroid
Originally by: Baun
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
I guess.... the fantasy crap bugs the hell out of me... maybe that new battlestar galactica MMO coming out or any other sci-fi game. CCP better straighten up before competition comes by and railroads them.
Can you link to the BSG mmo? :)
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Frostbyt
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:57:00 -
[2011]
Originally by: Stoli Vodka Edited by: Stoli Vodka on 11/02/2007 00:44:05 If I provide a BoD kill that uses the following:
* Flameburst Precision Light Missile * Phalanx Rage Rocket * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile * Spike L * Sabre
can I petition my losses? And if not is there any action I can take?
Our Alliance has 4 stations, several pos'es and LOTS of ships we'd like replaced please.
We'd also like to recover the lost income from the BoD slaves currently renting them since we were displaced. There were lots of hinky events surrounding the loss of them like unscheduled downtime, node crashes, stations becoming invul, pos'es going offline w/o reason etc.
***Not an offical note from my alliance, but if they were restored, I doubt they would complain.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:58:00 -
[2012]
BoB is in violation of EULA.. they cheated.. how hard is that to understand?
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MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 05:59:00 -
[2013]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: MrDisposable If you address only one more thing Maya, why is it that Sir Molle is not perma banned given he breached the EULA as witnessed by the entire eve community?
I don't know. Ask CCP (or don't...they won't answer, per their policy). As I said, I don't expect them to be fair.
And yes, what Kugutsmen did was illegal in his locality. Checked that.
Well I must say, if it can be proven that Kug broke the law.... he along with everyone else who is breaking the law should be banned.
This would require a hard look at wether or not infiltrating someone else's forums and TS is also on the shady side of things.
If we are gonna go by the letter of the law let no man be above it.
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deadmaus
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:00:00 -
[2014]
Originally by: Redwolf and now this post/thread has mysteriously vanished from the eve-o forums.
*tinfoil*
Redwolf you little beauty that link is priceless, and so is this quote:
"I can't stress enough on how important it is to not actively try to cause mischief here."
- T20 |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:00:00 -
[2015]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 11/02/2007 05:59:57
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Hemroid
Originally by: Baun
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
I guess.... the fantasy crap bugs the hell out of me... maybe that new battlestar galactica MMO coming out or any other sci-fi game. CCP better straighten up before competition comes by and railroads them.
Can you link to the BSG mmo? :)
OH man upon further investigation it is just a rumor... sorry for frackin that up
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:04:00 -
[2016]
Originally by: Baun Now maybe this means:
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf. There is probably nothing criminally actionable because there was no underlying duty for them to do anything about t20's conduct which itself was not criminal. This certainly raises some interesting questions, to say the least.
Er, I think you're getting carried away. It's not clear now, and certainly would have been even less clear then, that the initial situation would have really been a big deal if handled properly. If CCP would have come out (before being outed by a hacker) and said, "hey, there's been a problem, here's what we're doing to fix it...", I don't think people would have been very upset with CCP (although the BoB flames would be just as bad).
The problem, as is often the case, really began it began to look like CCP was trying to cover something up. This whole "investigation" has been really poorly handled and has succeeded in turning a minor scandal into something bigger.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Soporo
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:09:00 -
[2017]
Edited by: Soporo on 11/02/2007 06:06:53
Quote: Redwolf you little beauty that link is priceless, and so is this quote: "I can't stress enough on how important it is to not actively try to cause mischief here."- T20
So is this one.
Quote: So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level. We don't know more than you do, We don't have GM modules fitted...-T20
Though I guess he was fairly accurate, as he didnt mention anything about T2 BPO's.
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:13:00 -
[2018]
Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:12:03 Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:11:02 Despite Mayas protestations, Tanis brings out a bigger issue than anything else that has been posted here. The merger between CCP and White Wolf was going on during this time. If CCP knew about this and didn't disclose it, it could be considered anything from a breach of reps and warranties to fraud.
I wonder if/when White Wolf will learn of this thread?
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Razor Jaxx
Fate.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:14:00 -
[2019]
Well, Maya, if you want to continue being the sucker in this happy little farce, it's your choice.
Me, I'm not going to keep pretending, I'm going to do exactly like Bosie and a few others did - I just cancelled my 2 accounts, and I'll reassess the situation if and when CCP actually decides to address all issues.
It was not an easy thing to do ; I, too, love this game and have made many dear friends playing it, but I realize this is the only actual way I have to make my voice heard. Plus, I'm not really keen on handing my money to people who treat us as if we had the collective IQ of a batch of oysters.
I motion for all of you unhappy players, vets & newcomers alike, to follow suit. Put your actions where your mouth is.
Ciao.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:15:00 -
[2020]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
Er, I think you're getting carried away. It's not clear now, and certainly would have been even less clear then, that the initial situation would have really been a big deal if handled properly. If CCP would have come out (before being outed by a hacker) and said, "hey, there's been a problem, here's what we're doing to fix it...", I don't think people would have been very upset with CCP (although the BoB flames would be just as bad).
I didn't mean what I posted to imply that these were neccesary consequences of the facts at issue.
What I meant is that it may turn out that this has a hugely negative impact on CCP's net worth. If that is the case and they didn't tell White Wolf when they knew about it then it seems like there is potential for legal action and hence, retrospectively, a potential motive for why they did not immediately reveal what had happened.
It is quite likely that if they had dealt with this properly it wouldn't have been so serious, but i think this is a piece of the puzzle we need to consider.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Mal Renolds
Caldari Team America World Cops
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:16:00 -
[2021]
I see the Dev Blog and see alot of downplay and tbh spin
Cheating isnt minor or major it either is or it isnt
Its like being a virgin either you are or you arent
CCP has chosen for us not to know and they have left Bob with the T2 Bpo's long after the action was taken
CCP dont you think we wouldve liked to talk about this during fanfest?
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Hemroid
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:19:00 -
[2022]
Originally by: Mal Renolds
CCP dont you think we wouldve liked to talk about this during fanfest?
I'm sure it will be a topic at the next one....
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:20:00 -
[2023]
I guess like Richard Nixon and Scooter Libby, the question must be asked - Kieron: What did you know and when did you know? And Morgain will ask, what did you disclose during due diligence?
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:21:00 -
[2024]
Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 11/02/2007 06:19:05
Originally by: Dracolich
Originally by: Baun What was wrong with my statement.
Here are the facts:
1) CCP becomes aware of this dev misconduct and did nothing more than remove the characters involved from the game (although I would actually be shocked if they removed them instead of changing the portraits and names).
2) Kugutsumen uncovers information about dev misconduct and other cheating.
3) CCP conducts an "investigation" into something they already had full knowledge of. Meanwhile CCP deletes all threads relating to the matter and bans the person responsible for bringing the information to light.
4) After continued community pressure CCP admits something they have know for 6 months and finally takes the absolute bare minimum action they must take to remedy the situation.
5) CCP discloses essentially no information beyond what the public already knew about the incident. CCP baldly lies to the community about what their cheating developer knew and did. CCP fails to ban people for the same acts that allowed them to seek vengeance against the party that "caused" (note; CCP actually caused) these problems for them.
How can you actually say CCP, which has been caught in a lie and coverup concerning one of their current employees cheating in this game, has more credibility then a player who has said nothing that has been shown to false and has said things that have been shown to be true? You are blind.
I think this post sums it up nicely.
Agreed, Baun sums it all up nicely. I'm looking forward to getting into the war thats brewing... flying with fleet mates is always fun. but I dont really want to play eve... this event has really killed it for me. Im not going to quit, i'll keep my account and keep giving these liars my money, and eventually i'll come back to it.
Or i'll sell my char for cash, if a dev can cheat and then only say sorry when hes caught (how sorry was he when he was supplying bob with dictors and fleet ammo?? he should hang.) then why hold back based on morals...
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Hemroid
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:27:00 -
[2025]
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
Or i'll sell my char for cash, if a dev can cheat and then only say sorry when hes caught (how sorry was he when he was supplying bob with dictors and fleet ammo?? he should hang.) then why hold back based on morals... [:roll:
No you cannot sell your account for money as that would be a violation of the EULA, but you meant selling your time sitting in front of your computer starring at the screen.
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Abominog
Gallente Pyrrhon's Salvage Unlimited
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 06:27:00 -
[2026]
Originally by: John Tasker
Originally by: Novina Agrari Let him quit. Better yet, let's see him reassigned to the White Wolf division of CCP. Wouldn't that be a fitting solution? No more ever-so-important EVE dev account. No, t20 - now your job is to work on balancing vampire powers. And if a game comes out for that, well, you just go right ahead and make yourself a powerful vampire. Just think - you'll be able to work your way to head goth in some online coven, maybe slip them a few twinked out pieces of black lace clothing as a favor! Everyone will be impressed at what a great LARPer you are. And you won't be screwing up EVE anymore. It's a win-win.
now this made me laugh
if you want a real laugh check out the news on mmorpg.com they announced the new game about 5 hours ago
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:38:00 -
[2027]
Keiron, Your latest post brings up a new question from me. As you have successfully been able to play the game for quite some time without cousing a scandal, maybe the other devs should be removed from alliance warfare (as it is game changing politics) and stay in smaller corps without alliance affiliation.
Also it appears that the all management is staying out of alliance, but Dev's are joining to change the direction of EVE to the point they are willing to risk their careers. Is their a division on the future of EVE at CCP?
These are continued questions from my earlier post on page 43 I think. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=43#1276
Blacklight Posted - 2006.12.13 11:56:00 There's nothing to debate about this Nez, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that CCP favours any one player or group of players above any other.
There's just a group of people who's pride is severely damaged by getting outclassed in a video game and as a consequence are lashing out.
It's a storm in a teacup that will be yesterdays news within a few days just like every other drama bomb, another piece of Eve history.
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Thalen Draganos
Caldari EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:46:00 -
[2028]
Originally by: Chris
I was a member of ASCN, which was BoB's only serious competitor. We had dug in down in Fortress Feythabolis and had literally months worth of stockpiles of ships, guns, materials, and ammo. My stuff's still down there, and I couldn't care less. I'll never give CCP another cent.
The other thing worth noting is that we'd experience some exceptionally strange lag effects whenever we would fight BoB. Not the normal kind of skript-kiddie hax, but the entire ASCN fleet would drop out and then we'd log back in one-by-one due to the queue system -- and the entire BoB fleet would still be there, picking us off as we logged back in, one-by-one.
ASCN was continually shat upon in the game. During the war with G, we had all of our POS towers, which had been anchored for weeks, mysteriously unanchored **in the presence of a GM** in one of our Outpost systems, which allowed G to take the system and the Outpost station. This was never resolved with CCP.
Our alliance broke down after our leader, CYVOK, who had founded and led the alliance through trials and tribulations for years got fed up with the inaction of the Devs after our Titan was destroyed in some seriously weird circumstances. And that... that was the end of EvE for me as well. I think it's a great game and a great accomplishment by CCP, but the human aspect and the sheer unfairness of making everything we made and then losing it to a collection of poor hacks and bad GMs just sours and tarnishes everything.
this is something a friend of mine found on the net that I think people should concider.
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:50:00 -
[2029]
Originally by: Devie Viviem
It's a storm in a teacup that will be yesterdays news within a few days just like every other drama bomb, another piece of Eve history.
i truly hope not, if that happens then CCP can truly do anything they want and we will all obey like little IQ10 sheeps
i will guive until monday night to see any reaction from CCP on the matter and if not pleased with the reaction ill unsubscribe.
ps. and no i wont give my stuff to anyone, u just need to find a dev, befriend him and he will guive u anything u want.
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Gaius Octavius
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:13:00 -
[2030]
Actually, whether you believe that social engineering and lying to get onto other people's TS is illegal or not, members of BoB have broken the law in the past in a quite clear cut way. The contents of private forums (I'm referring to ASCN's at the moment, there was a very present copyright notice at the bottom of the page) are protected under international copyright and intellectual property laws. A person who specifically writes something for the benefit of certain other people, whether it be for a paying audience or a private one, have protections under international law. When BoB members cut and pasted quotes from the private ASCN forums onto the public EVE-O ones, they were violating those laws. Also, I believe I saw several references to how easy it was to do a PHP dump of ASCN's forums at the time. This IS hacking. So don't get all righteous about it, cause Kugut wasn't the only one hacking.
I find it funny that when ASCN was saying that there was something seriously wrong, and fishy in the situations with BoB, a lot of the people posting in this very topic ridiculed us of being tinfoilhatters. Now the truth is out, and ASCN paying game subscribers have been screwed out of hundreds of billions in assets because of a group of cheaters. Screw the bpo's. That little boondoggle is just the tip of the iceberg in the BoB/Dev/GM game. I was a serious hardcore EVE player since 1994, and all of my accounts have been inactive since December, when I realized that the only way to win in this game, is to cheat. If you really think that a few ammo bpo's and a sabre bpo are the sum total of the cheating, you're naive. This has been going on for a long time, and unless some serious policy changes occur at a corporate level within CCP, and they start seriously enforcing there own rules equally across the board, this game will be dead and gone with 18 months.
Adhamhnon
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:20:00 -
[2031]
Hilmar Veigar Petursson, Chief Executive Officer
Reynir Hardarson, Creative Director / Founder
Magnus Bergsson, Chief Marketing Officer
Kjartan Pierre Emilsson, Managing Director CCP Asia
Ivar Kristjansson, Chief Financial Officer / Co-Founder
J=n H÷r=dal, Chief Operating Officer
Nathan Richardsson, Senior Producer
Halld=r Fannar Gu=j=nsson, Chief Technology Officer
Gentlemen:
Could we please have a response?
Were this before a U.S. court of law I'd be demanding - "Your Honor, the defendant is non-responsive. Would you please direct him to respond to the question?"
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:20:00 -
[2032]
Originally by: Gaius Octavius I was a serious hardcore EVE player since 1994,
Whoa! Youve been playing eve since before they started coding it! How many SP do you have?
Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Gaius Octavius
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:23:00 -
[2033]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Gaius Octavius I was a serious hardcore EVE player since 1994,
Whoa! Youve been playing eve since before they started coding it! How many SP do you have?
It's pretty obvious I meant 2004 and just got my dates screwed up. Then again, that might be hard for someone born after 1994 to understand.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:27:00 -
[2034]
So much angst directed at me in this thread.. And I haven't even talked down to one person in the whole thing.. Just stating my opinions like everyone else.. And sorry if you took that as a jibe.. was simply menat as a joke.. guess without the smiley at the end or [sarcasm] tags some people just always take it the wrong way..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:30:00 -
[2035]
Originally by: Thalen Draganos
Originally by: Chris
I was a member of ASCN, which was BoB's only serious competitor. We had dug in down in Fortress Feythabolis and had literally months worth of stockpiles of ships, guns, materials, and ammo. My stuff's still down there, and I couldn't care less. I'll never give CCP another cent.
The other thing worth noting is that we'd experience some exceptionally strange lag effects whenever we would fight BoB. Not the normal kind of skript-kiddie hax, but the entire ASCN fleet would drop out and then we'd log back in one-by-one due to the queue system -- and the entire BoB fleet would still be there, picking us off as we logged back in, one-by-one.
ASCN was continually shat upon in the game. During the war with G, we had all of our POS towers, which had been anchored for weeks, mysteriously unanchored **in the presence of a GM** in one of our Outpost systems, which allowed G to take the system and the Outpost station. This was never resolved with CCP.
Our alliance broke down after our leader, CYVOK, who had founded and led the alliance through trials and tribulations for years got fed up with the inaction of the Devs after our Titan was destroyed in some seriously weird circumstances. And that... that was the end of EvE for me as well. I think it's a great game and a great accomplishment by CCP, but the human aspect and the sheer unfairness of making everything we made and then losing it to a collection of poor hacks and bad GMs just sours and tarnishes everything.
this is something a friend of mine found on the net that I think people should concider.
G... that name reminds me of things ive heard about Aurora... Is it not true that during the G/FE war Guristas Dreads attacked FE POS's in an "unplanned" Aurora event... Members of G in aurora are thought to be the cause... And did G later mostly become DICE? If anyone has proof or more information on this I'd like to see it. thanks. And yes, my tinfoil hats always in place.. but i think the time for those jokes is past, its clear that this bull**** goes far deeper than CCP will admit.
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:33:00 -
[2036]
We miss ya Ad....not one of us blame you for leaving. Many others left too. I'm sure more are leaving now. Not sure how much more I can take of it honestly. My EVE experience seems tainted now.
now a excerpt from the prophet Nez Pecez:
Posted - 2006.12.13 11:52:00 What you are saying would make sense but for one thing......
Lets go along with your take on this... ASCN are being dismantled by BoB. It seems that the characters behind the ASCN computers can't handle it... they will not allow this to happen, be it by ingame mechanics or calling into question the very fabric of the game we play.
It seems that for their misfortune they are prepared to make the game less palatable for the rest of us.
CCP is corrupt, in bed with BoB. Shady deals going on in the background, preferrential treatment when it comes to petitions. Devs inside BoB, possibly supplying them with isk and materials... who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes? Are we playing a rigged game?
Or does it.... or does the rabbit hole stop at the ASCN forums.
What are they trying to peddle here?
If its not true.. then they are guilty of the most heinous defamation possible, trying to spoil the game for the rest of us.
Thats unforgivable.
So when ASCN goes down is EVE supposed to go down with her, is that the deal?
Cause thats what the implications are of the ASCN accusations.. we are all wasting our time because BoB has CCP in their back pocket.
And by god they better have some proof for what they are saying.
There is nothing innocent or understandable about the implications being cast around on these threads today.
Something is wrong very wrong and the root of it lies within ASCN or BoB.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:34:00 -
[2037]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus So much angst directed at me in this thread.. And I haven't even talked down to one person in the whole thing.. Just stating my opinions like everyone else.. And sorry if you took that as a jibe.. was simply menat as a joke.. guess without the smiley at the end or [sarcasm] tags some people just always take it the wrong way..
Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
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Doctor Muffin
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:40:00 -
[2038]
There are obviously lots of people who have no clue as to the value of certain objects in the game.
Yes, it is correct that the Sabre BPO did not bring ISK rolling into BoB's wallet from sales and any subsequent investment of sales income from it.
Gains from the BPO are but a fraction of the tip of the iceberg. It's an interdictor. It creates a bubble that prevents ships from warping away so that a gank squad or fleet can destroy the ships.
Six months of producing these ships and using them, each ship dropping dozens of bubbles on each flight out, each bubble potentially causing multiple kills adds up to what was probably TRILLIONS of lost isk from the Eve community.
The other BPOs (admitted to) were all related to combat and establishing fleet dominance.
This leads to the question that most people want answered, " Who wrote the list of BPOs they recieved?" There is the real possibility that these came on request after serious thought into what would benefit them the most with having the least chance of being noticed.
Did the dev in question build all the sabres himself? Certainly, atleast the first person to whom they were transferred to knew or suspected they were not legitimate BPOs as they were coming from a dev.
On the quesiton of banning, Sir Molle and the dev in quesiton are both unquestionable in violation of EULA and hence should be banned in accordance with stated CCP policy. The idea that the incident happened last summer or that punishment was already administered are not valid reasons for non-action now. Nixon, Rumsfeld, Enron were all things that came out in the open later, but that doesn't stop current punitive measures from being administered once the cascading events become some large that even a rug made from the pelt of every mammal on Earth sewn together would be too small to be swept under.
One thing that needs to be considered is the building of an employee's lounge at CCP, open 24 hrs, from which, and ONLY from which devs may play the game. A network where they have no access to delete any files in windows, cannot use any other 3rd party programs such as MSN/ICQ/TS, etc. An environment that is so securely monitored that if a dev were to look over their shoulder they would see Sauron's giant eye watching them.
I know this may add pressure and undue scrutiny to the majority of CCP staff who are honest and hardworking people, but just as it occurs in families, businesses and in government, when trust is breached, security must be heightened. If it as necessary as Hilmar stated that devs play the game then the envionment in which they play it should now be so secure that there is no way to perform improper actions. Possibly even some special code added into the dev's versions whereby their accounts can ONLY be logged into form onsite and every keystroke is recorded into a storage that only the "internal affairs" deptartment of CCP has access to.
----
Once again, my sympathies to the majority of hard-working people at CCP who are being drug through the mud along with the few bad apples. It is unfortunate, but also unavoidable once a scandal such as this comes to light. I have been treated with respect and my issues were handled timely and with care by those in the CCP staff that I have had dealings with. My hat is off to those of you that are kicking arse.
BTW, * whispers * "thanks for the titan BPOs" :P
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:45:00 -
[2039]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/02/2007 07:42:09
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:48:00 -
[2040]
Doctor Muffin:
Great ideas.
I'm a pirate/miner (I'll address the contradiction later) in eve, but I play a lawyer in real life, so I don't know if your code is practical. But if it is, I hope CCP will implement it asap.
Morgain
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:52:00 -
[2041]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:49:39
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Its debatable how much help t20 was in the end, however the fact remains that BoB was playing the last 8 months with help from t20, at least in the form of t2 BPOs and possible other things as well. No one knows how things would have turned out without his assistance.
I'd agree that it doesn't make much sense for the Devs to help one group over another, but that is EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED here for reasons that only t20 and the other Devs know... and unfortunately they don't seem to be very willing to tell us.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:54:00 -
[2042]
If CCP won't clean up their act willingly, it might be time to start flooding White Wolf with letters. CCP continually demonstrates they only respond to pressure, and short of canceling our accounts, there are other economic related pressures that can still be administered. This kind of back door gameplay cannot be allowed to continue under any circumstances.
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:56:00 -
[2043]
Oh Lord Jesus,
As I walk through the valley of the shadows of corruption, I will fear no evil. Because BoB is no where near me. I'm an empire miner near Rens. But the truth is my sheppard and my senses guide me. I see evil admitted and I see the demise of an otherwise great game. I see laws violated and litigation pending. And despite your words thou art my rod and my staff to guide me.
And as the Omnipotent Entity directs me to quote - Truth or STFU.
Amen
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:57:00 -
[2044]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:53:53
Originally by: Booster Junkie If CCP won't clean up their act willingly, it might be time to start flooding White Wolf with letters. CCP continually demonstrates they only respond to pressure, and short of canceling our accounts, there are other economic related pressures that can still be administered. This kind of back door gameplay cannot be allowed to continue under any circumstances.
I'm not terribly familiar with their merger agreement, but it sounds like CCP holds most of the power. I'm sure White Wolf is none too happy right now though especially since this scandal is most likely going to end up being associated with the World of Darkness (or whatever its called) MMO when it is released.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:58:00 -
[2045]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/02/2007 07:42:09
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Why would someone help out a bunch of friends? Yeah it makes no sense at all that anyone would do that eh? Instead of your thought process working like this:
Read->denial mode->response
Try this
Read->think->respond.
You are only making yourself look worse.
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 07:59:00 -
[2046]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:53:53
Originally by: Booster Junkie If CCP won't clean up their act willingly, it might be time to start flooding White Wolf with letters. CCP continually demonstrates they only respond to pressure, and short of canceling our accounts, there are other economic related pressures that can still be administered. This kind of back door gameplay cannot be allowed to continue under any circumstances.
I'm not terribly familiar with their merger agreement, but it sounds like CCP holds most of the power. I'm sure White Wolf is none too happy right now though especially since this scandal is most likely going to end up being associated with the World of Darkness (or whatever its called) MMO when it is released.
Exactly. Much like I will never pay for another SOE product again due to how they managed SWG, they are risking a similar potential fate to their investment in a WoD MMOG.
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Syop
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:01:00 -
[2047]
**** CCP. I love this game but at the end of the day they will never admit a thing. We as a consumer always shut up. And they know that. Eve is one of the greateste games out there. But knowing that developers work with bob to cheapen my experience makesme sick. All I know is I ever find a bob member or a developer on my island there going to be complaining for decades.
Way to go CCP for destroying a game because your a buch of wimps who refuse to admit to corruption.
I Just hope I dont hear any european complainging about george bush, becuause CCP has adopted his style politics hook line sinker.
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Rusla
Significant Figures
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:02:00 -
[2048]
Edited by: Rusla on 11/02/2007 08:00:35
Originally by: Redwolf and now this post/thread has mysteriously vanished from the eve-o forums. *tinfoil*
Now this is extremely suspect. Not the post disappearing, but the fact that employees of CCP are covertly taking part in a competition run by CCP. Can you say "conflict of interest"? This would be illegal in the UK. It's exactly this kind of perceived corruption that is ruining the reputation of CCP within the Eve playerbase.
It's time CCP got their house in order.
Devs should not be allowed to join player run corporations.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:03:00 -
[2049]
You know whats funny? Can anyone really say "Go play WoW" smugly anymore?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:03:00 -
[2050]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:49:39
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Its debatable how much help t20 was in the end, however the fact remains that BoB was playing the last 8 months with help from t20, at least in the form of t2 BPOs and possible other things as well. No one knows how things would have turned out without his assistance.
I'd agree that it doesn't make much sense for the Devs to help one group over another, but that is EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED here for reasons that only t20 and the other Devs know... and unfortunately they don't seem to be very willing to tell us.
Fair enough.. But with the facts so far all it looks like is that one dev(singular) was a bit naughty by spawning some valuable but hardly war winning items for what im assuming was convienience as all the said items that were produced were already available in as much quantity as they could want in the market.. So lets wait until monday so that CCP can both spend some time with their familys and have at least a bit of time to figure out WTF happened and give a reasoned and competantly investigated responce..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:09:00 -
[2051]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/02/2007 07:42:09
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Why would someone help out a bunch of friends? Yeah it makes no sense at all that anyone would do that eh? Instead of your thought process working like this:
Read->denial mode->response
Try this
Read->think->respond.
You are only making yourself look worse.
Because if the devs really did help bob in this war and were caught doing it then the amusing side show thread we have now would be something much *much* uglier with real potential to damage subscriptions and future player recruitment.. Again I applaud you guys for fully taking advantage of the sutuation and opening a public front to the bob vs eve war but in the end its just another front to a bitter and hard fought war.. as time will no doubt tell..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:09:00 -
[2052]
Oh Lord,
It's not the crime it's the cover up. Nixon, perhaps, but doubted, Libby, Clinton (his not hers she made the statute of limitations). They've had, admittidley 7 months now. Please use your powers and put a burning bush into their offices and tell them to come clean. If Christ is helping in this cover up we have no chance to clean this game out.
Amen
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Mal Renolds
Caldari Team America World Cops
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:15:00 -
[2053]
Heres another issue seeing as this Dev was over the top into his Alliance what was to stop him from telling his corp/alliance about certain expliots that where currently in the game . He would have that information confirmed information while we the players deal in rumors.....(like till now there are devs in bob) some are true some arent but the dev would know whats true and what isnt and save his corp/alliance alot of trouble we have to muddle though as "part of the game"
Now the issue of the Hacker two wrongs dont make a right . Its simple he guilty as changed and if want justice done we cant overlook his crimes becuase he incovered and forced out a dev helping Bob
I say again it doesnt matter what bpo's where given out once the Dev in question exceeded "player knowledge" He cheated and presented his alliance (In this case BOB) with a unfair advantage that other alliances dont have
I think the entire devs in big alliance issue has to be looked at seriously . As by nature eve has you playing this longer than most mmorpg's This tempation to let something "slip" to help your mates is understandable because your Immersed into this game ...too immersed
In fact the devs blog sounds like he is still covering up what he did ! He sold out his personal honur for some digitail rubbish to give his alliance and he betrayed the trust ccp put to him when he was hired, than ccp betrayed our trust when this was covered up . And futher muddied the water by still allowing the tech 2 bpo's to remain in the game
As I mentioned before the whole issue of the bpc's being given to bob is quite making me look forward to fan fest where Im sure you can explain to us why the prints wherent removed when this mess all came up
Cheating is basic its yes no either it is or it isnt only the ones who do cheat need the shades of grey
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Mal Renolds
Caldari Team America World Cops
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:18:00 -
[2054]
Edited by: Mal Renolds on 11/02/2007 08:16:06 ack wrong button sorry
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Goran
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:20:00 -
[2055]
Well, isn't this nice?
Can't you see that it is you people that are killing Eve, not CCP, not BoB? You are willing to flush this game in to the sewers just to score a few points on an intardweb chat board?
Well done.
I bet K. is laughing his arse off.
He took payments from you suckers to reveal information. Easy ISK.
He tried to blackmail BoB to keep quiet. He failed.
He tried to blackmail CCP to keep quiet. He got banned.
What we have now is a dramabomb of epic proportions of his creation. You, by ranting at CCP and BoB, are carrying out his threats for him, you have become his pawns.
Poor sheep. Baaaaaaa.
You think your crusade is actually having results? All you have done is brought out in to the open something that happened months ago. It was dealt with then, and all this has changed nothing, and nor should it.
This thread is a perfect example of exactly why all breaches of the COD, TOS, and EULA should remain confidential. Making things public and transparent doesn't make thing better, just uglier.
Sure T20 should have been punished more harshly at the time, but he wasn't. Live with it. Move on.
Sure anyone who is proven to cheat should be punished. We just have to trust the petition system, because if we put the law in to our own hands we become what we distrust.
This isn't the first time that people in authority have been caught cheating (at least one other event made public, the GM scorp), and I doubt it would be the last. If I don't hear of any more then I am happy .. even if they occur and are dealt with internally
The question you have to ask yourselves is: The moment before I heard about this, did I enjoy Eve?
The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
The only difference is that the community has soured somewhat, and most of them don't even see it.
You are being played. You are carrying out (knowingly or not) the agenda of someone else.
Question is, do you want to kill the game you love in order to exact the threats of K., or do you want to work to save it.
The only thing here than needs immediate healing is the community, and that is something that we have to do for ourselves. Nothing CCP says can do it for us.
It really is time to put your trust in Eve, and CCP. If you can't do that because of one rotten apple, then leave. Don't kill it for those who wish to enjoy this game.
The situation is not ideal, and I for one am not happy about the whole thing, but like the 4S incident, and the GM scorp, it will fade with time, and Eve will (hopefully) remain. |
MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:21:00 -
[2056]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 11/02/2007 08:18:38
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/02/2007 07:42:09
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Why would someone help out a bunch of friends? Yeah it makes no sense at all that anyone would do that eh? Instead of your thought process working like this:
Read->denial mode->response
Try this
Read->think->respond.
You are only making yourself look worse.
Because if the devs really did help bob in this war and were caught doing it then the amusing side show thread we have now would be something much *much* uglier with real potential to damage subscriptions and future player recruitment.. Again I applaud you guys for fully taking advantage of the sutuation and opening a public front to the bob vs eve war but in the end its just another front to a bitter and hard fought war.. as time will no doubt tell..
Did you see me mention BoB? I didn't, I mentioned friends.
This is not a sideshow. It is a serious issue and has the very real potential of costing subs here. That is one of the reasons why this thread is tucked away in this small corner of the forums.
This is really simple to anyone who looks at it objectively. We have two sources of information. One has been proven untrustworthy, by admission of their own of wrongdoing and by extension mis-leading us. The other while a less savory character has a perfect track record. He did not lie about the Goons and there is no evidence that he is lying here.
That would mean that T20 is a non-credible witness while Kug is credible.
You are a BoB alt. It is painfully obvious by the way everything anyone says at this point is about BoB... which is classic BoB behaviour
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Morgain dVher
The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:25:00 -
[2057]
And a big yawn to you Goran.
*hugs*
"If the surgeon had to cut out so much flesh that the patient couldn't be saved, then the patient shouldn't have been saved."
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:28:00 -
[2058]
Originally by: Goran It was dealt with then, and all this has changed nothing, and nor should it.
It was not dealt with, which invalidates everything else you said. T20 kept a character in BoB, even though Ishos for forced to leave. Additionally, the illegal BPOs remained in RKKs possession until K.'s handiwork revealed the corruption.
Back to the BoB forums BoB alt.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:33:00 -
[2059]
Originally by: Goran The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
However, unlike the 4S and GM Scorp situation, this one has changed the public perception of CCP and the players/potential players willingness to trust CCP (as evidenced by this thread and countless gaming media sites). The main difference is CCP reaction... with 4S and the Scorp CCP handled things properly and made amends to the community by restoring the 4S name/firing the GM involved. In this case, CCP decided to not fire the developer invovled and for some reason decided to not even remove the t2 BPOs from the game. Not only that, they then tried to hide the event from the player base (see kierons first post on the subject discussing the "two allegations" and "hoping to put the issue behind us" without even discussing the t2 BPOs).
Like it or not, CCP dug their own grave on this one and it is entirely up to them to get themselves out.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Max Grief
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 08:33:00 -
[2060]
Can i have your Stuff?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:51:00 -
[2061]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Did you see me mention BoB? I didn't, I mentioned friends.
This thread is about a dev helping one isolated corp in the bob alliance.. ergo I assumed you meant bob..
Quote: This is not a sideshow. It is a serious issue and has the very real potential of costing subs here. That is one of the reasons why this thread is tucked away in this small corner of the forums.
It takes 3 clicks to get to this topic and every one is at or very near the top.. eveo.com-forums-eveinfoportal-sticky #2.. This is the best thing to happen to these forums in ages as there is no such thing in the entertainment business as bad publicty.. So my opinion stands.. Its a side show attraction..
Quote: This is really simple to anyone who looks at it objectively. We have two sources of information. One has been proven untrustworthy, by admission of their own of wrongdoing and by extension mis-leading us. The other while a less savory character has a perfect track record. He did not lie about the Goons and there is no evidence that he is lying here.
That would mean that T20 is a non-credible witness while Kug is credible.
Lets wait until we get more info before making statements of like these.. I'm just as curious as you to see if any other wrongdoing was perpetrated.. Personally I think if any new info is released it will be on monday.. So save the premature conclusions until then..
Quote: You are a BoB alt. It is painfully obvious by the way everything anyone says at this point is about BoB... which is classic BoB behaviour
We will never realy know will we..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Borderjumper
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:52:00 -
[2062]
So wow just read all post revent to said subject and am left feeling kinda sad realy, but their is a light at the end of this tunnle, I promise....
I have not been playing as long as some, but i had to ask myself how does this realy affect me. At first i just pawnd it off as a In-house screw up at CCP, then after reading some more of kierons responces, It is apparent that some serious issues have been poorly handled by some people at the top of the totom-pole, obviosly. So really Im agian forced to ask my self, was i affected? Surely not!?! I mean, im not in a big fancy alliance, or have any BPO's of grave importance, how can this affect me? Could it affect me? then realzed, it did affect me. How you ask? simple. I live in the same universe as the rest of the people here. If the action\s of just afew single players in eve caused all this, and to see the actions\in-actions of CCP it kind of does make one wonder whether trust has been misplaced.
Call it what you want to but was Justic realy served?
Quote: it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.
I dont realy know?
In real life lieing, cheating and stealing come with penalts, and sometimes you have to pay for your mistakes more then once. I would like to think the same thing holds true in a fantasy.
Regardless, What have we as commuinty of people lost? Nothing.
In fact, I would say, we have had a chance to realy come togather as a "Famly" and get right down to the core issues that are to blame here, and to learn for the mistakes of past, and to enjoy the gifts of now, for eve may not be here tommorw. (enuf rambaling-giber-jabber)
Well, cant find the tinny hat, so ill just go with out for awhile.
CCP, thank you EVE-O residents, thank you
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Akyra C
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:52:00 -
[2063]
Unfortunately as evidenced by kieron replies in other thread CCP continues to lie to us. 1/ Supplying information to BoB alliance (t20 didnot admit it) - though enough proff was posted. 2/ Evidence of cynonet - file the petition and we handle it (Didnot Kugut provide all this info a while back ? ) 3/ GM scouting - we're investigating though damage already been done 4/ Very strange fleet battle yesterday with lag selectevely affecting gs side. - gm/dev cheating continues ? 5/ T20 still working for CCP - how it can be proved that he doesnt supply information to bob still ? 6/ Macromarket program with bob members as developers/testers - another charity of t20 ?
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Schlitz40
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:59:00 -
[2064]
kieron compromised the business and the game as we know it. Luckily for keiron it seems the CeO is a pretty good dude after reading his statement. keiron should resign he cant be trusted .period1.one!!1
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:01:00 -
[2065]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 11/02/2007 09:00:27
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
This thread is about a dev helping one isolated corp in the bob alliance.. ergo I assumed you meant bob..
You know what they say about assumtions?
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus It takes 3 clicks to get to this topic and every one is at or very near the top.. eveo.com-forums-eveinfoportal-sticky #2.. This is the best thing to happen to these forums in ages as there is no such thing in the entertainment business as bad publicty.. So my opinion stands.. Its a side show attraction..
You have invalidated your own point... more of that bad thought processing I see.
Lets go in reverse order cause you might be dsylexic too. Seems like SOE got tons of bad publicty for SWG and see where that got them, or Enron, or ect....
3 clicks into a brand new forum very few people visit, with no references to this thread condoned in any other forum. Thats called hiding.
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Lets wait until we get more info before making statements of like these.. I'm just as curious as you to see if any other wrongdoing was perpetrated.. Personally I think if any new info is released it will be on monday.. So save the premature conclusions until then..
Its real simple. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
T20 is not trustworthy. He has been dishonest until the very point he could no longer hide it then he came out like a coward and tried to make it look like he had some kind of honor. He has none. Go cry somewhere else. I do not feel sorry for him.
Kug has been proven right every time so far. Labeling him hacker or scum or 3-legged goat does not change the fact he has been right.
Quote: You are a BoB alt. It is painfully obvious by the way everything anyone says at this point is about BoB... which is classic BoB behaviour
We will never realy know will we..
It is quiet obvious
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:17:00 -
[2066]
In my RL job I'm a crisis management planner for one of the world's top 10 companies.
Part of crisis management planning is to have crisis communication plans. These plans are mainly made to minimize reputational loss in situations where the media jumps on the corporation. Other part is how to deal internally to re-establish trust and confidence.
When a situation like this happens, and you do not have plans, a corporation's management typically sits around in meetings, more or less desperate and stunned, not knowing what to do. To the public that appears as inactivity, appeasement, or just as they do not care. This makes the situation worse, and increases the reputational loss, quickly additionally creating financial losses as the corporation starts to loose customers, and the reputational loss starts to affect sales.
There is only one correct answer to situations like this, proven in many, many cases throughout the world:
Quick and harsh reaction, better over-reaction then under-reaction, to demonstrate the intact integrity of the corporation's management, and to reasonably justify that the corporation can be trusted in future.
Everytime a management reacts like CCP is reacting now, the situation turned into a major disaster, in the end more often then not resulting in the vanishing of the corporation from the markets.
I would hate to see that happen to CCP, I have plans for years to come...
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Arcticblue2
Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:23:00 -
[2067]
There... one of my two accounts canceled... this account is still open but will be canceled depending on what CCP's action coming month will be.
Second account is unfortnatly still active to 12th of March but after that no more.
I keep this one open still because it also will take one month to cancel (just paid), also need to set the corp in order to my departure.
---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. |
Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:33:00 -
[2068]
I have tried to read most of the thread but its extremely long. I have seen a number of posts trying to defend the Developer (T20) actions by informing the readers that they are low end Tech 2 BPOs. I feel they are missing the point of the whole situation.
As an employee of CCP he has seriously abused his trust that is given by its customers and the company he works for.
I do not know him or any of his circumstances and looking at it in a complete unbiased way I would have to come the conclusion of some posters that his posistion in the company is untenable.
No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:41:00 -
[2069]
Snigg is recruiting unscrupulous devs. Please contact Mazz for an interview if you're interested.
Shamis
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:45:00 -
[2070]
Originally by: Heritor No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
And how exactly can we move on?
The real culprits havent been punished, the whistleblower has had all his accounts banned, BOB ceo's and maybe directors, knew that t20 was a dev, they should have reported him, they chose to abuse him!
t20 gave unfair advantage to BOB, knowledge of game mechanics, exploits, etc.. (seriously, man, think about it).
BOB would not be where they are now, without this traitor.
So, Sack the traitor, make an example to other dev/gm/isd.
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
At the moment, CCP are twisting th EULA to their own satisfaction.
FREE KUGUTSUMEN
Cheaters never prosper! |
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:46:00 -
[2071]
Originally by: Bosie
Originally by: 18 Rabbit The one certainty here is that 90% of the people threatening to quit won't actually do so, and that's especially true for those with multiple accounts.
2 accounts here since 2003 and both of mine have been canceled over this. Like I said many pages ago if CCP do the right thing I will subscribe again. I am a firm believer in talking with your cash. The fact that this was covered up and only 6 months later is coming to light due to a whistle blower...
Was good flying with you back in the day Bosie. Have a good one.
Shamis
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VunnaX
Golden Fury Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:48:00 -
[2072]
If someone in my corp says he is a dev and hand me some bpo or hand it to my ceo, who then give me hac or something for like 30-40 mils, I would not say anything. You all wanna says you would qoit that corp and yell around about it? Or you all would accept those cool stuff for free and stfu about it? |
Goran
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:48:00 -
[2073]
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you? |
Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 09:51:00 -
[2074]
Originally by: Goran
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you?
STFU... BOB alt
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems) |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:51:00 -
[2075]
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Goran
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you?
STFU... BOB alt
Is that a yes or a no?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Arcticblue2
Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:52:00 -
[2076]
Originally by: Max Grief
Originally by: Arcticblue2 There... one of my two accounts canceled... this account is still open but will be canceled depending on what CCP's action coming month will be.
Second account is unfortnatly still active to 12th of March but after that no more.
I keep this one open still because it also will take one month to cancel (just paid), also need to set the corp in order to my departure.
Can i have your stuff?
Nah... my 2 tech 2 bpo's, 10 battleships, numerous other ships (Factionships included) and 400 millions I keep for myself.... ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. |
Succoros
Caldari The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:55:00 -
[2077]
Im just thinking of all those BoB sigs during the ASCN forum war that had "dev hax lolz" in them, not so funny now is it? ----------------------------------- Death is more eternal than life. Everyone dies but not everyone lives. |
Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:00:00 -
[2078]
Edited by: Liquid Vision on 11/02/2007 09:57:24
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Goran
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you?
STFU... BOB alt
Is that a yes or a no?
Considering that CCP treats the EULA as this amorphous, malleable document that can be whipped out at any minor offense for the average player and hidden in the closet for any of their friends. . .I think the real question would be, how many devs are in Goonswarm and best buds with their leaders?
The next question, specifically for you, is:
Did you know that there were devs in your alliance handing over spawned T2 BPOs and giving out info and whatnot?
- If the answer is yes you're just as much a scumbag as the guys running your alliance and T20 and you should go hide in shame and proceed with self-flaggelation in repentance.
- If the answer is no, then I pose to you another question. How does it feel to get played by your own bosses?
I would post a sig but the CCP Naz1s would just delete it. Oh well. |
Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:01:00 -
[2079]
Originally by: Heritor I have seen a number of posts trying to defend the Developer (T20) actions by informing the readers that they are low end Tech 2 BPOs. I feel they are missing the point of the whole situation.
Plus the other point is that a lot of people find it rather coincidental that the only "sins" this cheat is confessing to are those where evidence was already in the public domain. And rather implausible that someone would risk both Eve and his job over something this petty.
We need the whole story from t20. Why did you cheat? Why these bpo's only, if these is all there were? And a full accounting of everything you said, did and knew of that was "wrong", either morally or in terms of the EULA. Judgement is another matter, but frankly I'd rather have the whole truth and a new honesty/transparency policy than t20's head on a plate. And until the story makes sense, it just won't be believed. And CCP so need to have people able to start believing them again.
We also need a consistent and fair policy on account sharing, account transfers and naming RL names. For the former two, either confirm these are bannable and apply them consistently - in particular, BoB's known cyno network; or else change the EULA to permit them except in cases of illegal access and allow all those who have been banned for so doing to get their characters/accounts back. (Me, I'd rather the latter - if it doesn't hurt the game, why hurt the players for doing it?) And on the last, either Molle goes or Kugutsumen returns - has to be one or other. My impression is Ku was banned out of nothing more than sheer pique of CCP's part and that's not good enough, not when other EULA violations are being systematically ignored. |
starsky cake
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:06:00 -
[2080]
just to recap the sabre BPO over the 8 month period alone could have relised 14 bill in ill goten funds for B0B thats a lot of things you could do with that kinda iskies, and the smaller crappy bpos you wouldnt notice eh but if HAC bpos went bells might ring, whos to say this isnt just the tip of the iceberg? what would they do in rl? sieze their assests,freeze bobs corprate wallet? i dunno but CCP need to do something
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:11:00 -
[2081]
Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 Right, I have read every post on this this subject, and I have this to say:
Firstly, am am honestly shocked that there was any truth to these allegations, and disappointed. You lot probably won't believe me, but frankly I could care less.
Secondly, I trust CCP have taken whatever action they think appropriate. It may not be enough for some, but calling for more isn't really going to change anything. IMHO T20 should have been sacked when this was orginally discovered, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I can live with that.
Any BoB characters who knowingly took advantage of T20 should be punished as appropriate.
Kuwhateverhisname is should remain banned. If he had just outed all this as some sort of service to the community, that would have been one thing (although there is really no excuse for airing all this in public anyway), but that isn't the case, is it? He tried to use this information for personal gain, revealing bit and peices in exchange for ingame isk, whilst trying to get BoB and CCP to cough up to silence him. He is no hero.
If he had done the "right thing", all of this could have been resolved privately, as such matters should. Harming the game in order to forward his own agenda has achieved nothing, and it never can.
I can't even see how you people can defend him. His actions are not "for the greater good", they were for his own good. What next, a webpage listing ever infraction against every player, ever? (Not that it would affect me, I am a good boy in-game .. although the forums do let me down a little)
Do I believe that BoB are where they are because of T20? Honestly, no.
Frankly, if the BPO's go back on the lottery there is a good chance they will end up back in BoB's hands anyway. We have bought up (for huge amounts of perfectly legally earned ISK) a vast array of blueprints, and we would probably be able to buy up these.
People want to think the worst of BoB, and I am cool with that. We have purposely fostered an image of being Eve's "bad guys", and it has worked well for us. We enjoy being the bad guys. That does not, however, mean supporting cheating.
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
I feel for CCP, I feel for BoB, and I feel for the community.
This whole affair could have been handled in a much better way, but alas we are where we are.
What now?
Do we, as CCP suggest, try to put this behind us and move on; or do we do all we can to risk the future of this game?
I have invested a lot in Eve, and I really don't want to see it die, so what now?
The ultimate future of Eve is in the hands of the community, you, me, everyone.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:13:00 -
[2082]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Goran
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you?
STFU... BOB alt
Is that a yes or a no?
If CCP implement 10 free t2 BPOs per corporation next patch then yes, if not then no.
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Enaria Ferenic
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:16:00 -
[2083]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 Right, I have read every post on this this subject, and I have this to say:
Firstly, am am honestly shocked that there was any truth to these allegations, and disappointed. You lot probably won't believe me, but frankly I could care less.
Secondly, I trust CCP have taken whatever action they think appropriate. It may not be enough for some, but calling for more isn't really going to change anything. IMHO T20 should have been sacked when this was orginally discovered, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I can live with that.
Any BoB characters who knowingly took advantage of T20 should be punished as appropriate.
Kuwhateverhisname is should remain banned. If he had just outed all this as some sort of service to the community, that would have been one thing (although there is really no excuse for airing all this in public anyway), but that isn't the case, is it? He tried to use this information for personal gain, revealing bit and peices in exchange for ingame isk, whilst trying to get BoB and CCP to cough up to silence him. He is no hero.
If he had done the "right thing", all of this could have been resolved privately, as such matters should. Harming the game in order to forward his own agenda has achieved nothing, and it never can.
I can't even see how you people can defend him. His actions are not "for the greater good", they were for his own good. What next, a webpage listing ever infraction against every player, ever? (Not that it would affect me, I am a good boy in-game .. although the forums do let me down a little)
Do I believe that BoB are where they are because of T20? Honestly, no.
Frankly, if the BPO's go back on the lottery there is a good chance they will end up back in BoB's hands anyway. We have bought up (for huge amounts of perfectly legally earned ISK) a vast array of blueprints, and we would probably be able to buy up these.
People want to think the worst of BoB, and I am cool with that. We have purposely fostered an image of being Eve's "bad guys", and it has worked well for us. We enjoy being the bad guys. That does not, however, mean supporting cheating.
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
I feel for CCP, I feel for BoB, and I feel for the community.
This whole affair could have been handled in a much better way, but alas we are where we are.
What now?
Do we, as CCP suggest, try to put this behind us and move on; or do we do all we can to risk the future of this game?
I have invested a lot in Eve, and I really don't want to see it die, so what now?
The ultimate future of Eve is in the hands of the community, you, me, everyone.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
I word: Rich.
This Char is an Alt
|
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:18:00 -
[2084]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Snigg is recruiting unscrupulous devs. Please contact Mazz for an interview if you're interested.
Shamis
bug hunters and ISD without any useful powers may apply to sniggwaffe, GMs forum mods and fullblown devs get a ticket straight into s******dly. aurora actors get admittance into our intel forums. i hear there are some looking for a corp right now, and i do aim to help.
GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :( |
Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:21:00 -
[2085]
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Heritor No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
And how exactly can we move on?
He resigns.....it s the thing to do Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Superbus Maximus
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:21:00 -
[2086]
"You lot probably won't believe me, but frankly I could care less."
I believe you Avon. Most players in BoB knew nothing about this, minus mabey a few. The actions of several people have dragged your name through the mud and I think they owe the majority of the BoB player base a huge public appology, but yet I dont see anything that resembles one to me in any of their posts.
And thanks for not posting with an alt Avon u got balls
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:26:00 -
[2087]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42
Any BoB characters who knowingly took advantage of T20 should be punished as appropriate. for us.
So, you agree that Sir Molle should be banned from EVE since he broke the EULA?
If we were really seeing the house get cleaned we'd see the end of Dianabolic, dbp, and others in BOBs leadership as well since they knew T20 was a dev and there's a 99.99999999% chance he was feeding them info and other secrets and they never said a damn thing. Also, there are huge mountains of logs where they discuss cheating AND allowing others to cheat. . .like letting the Chinese farmers run their plexes which would also be a violation of the EULA since they admit to knowing these guys sell ISK on EBay.
Also. . .please quit trying to lay a guilt trip on all of us. We didn't cheat. Everyone going on about a "witch hunt" and whatnot is severely brain damaged. In fact, I believe that the community isn't even responding as strongly as it should because there are WAY too many people that would rather ignore the situation so they can try and enjoy the game. Kinda like the folks that ignore the person being murdered/raped/mugged screaming for help because they'd rather not have to confront the situation.
Oh, and of course I had to throw this in. . .BOB members acting like mature individuals? I would post a sig but the CCP Naz1s would just delete it. Oh well. |
Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:29:00 -
[2088]
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Heritor No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
And how exactly can we move on?
The real culprits havent been punished, the whistleblower has had all his accounts banned, BOB ceo's and maybe directors, knew that t20 was a dev, they should have reported him, they chose to abuse him!
t20 gave unfair advantage to BOB, knowledge of game mechanics, exploits, etc.. (seriously, man, think about it).
BOB would not be where they are now, without this traitor.
So, Sack the traitor, make an example to other dev/gm/isd.
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
At the moment, CCP are twisting th EULA to their own satisfaction.
FREE KUGUTSUMEN
He was in RKK for 7 months, he didnt take part in the GNW, FA war & ASCN War etc, so how doe syour logic work??
you wouldnt know that as you arent even a year old(and yes im sure your hiding behind a lame alt)
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:30:00 -
[2089]
Originally by: Heritor
No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
Bingo. Anyone with any real integrity would have "fallen on the grenade" by now, packed his things and headed for a different employer. Or, at the very least, requested transfer to a non-EVE related project.
Just out of curiosity, does CCP have a written corporate code of ethics? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the answer is "no". Is anyone there familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development? Could someone at CCP tell us in which stage they feel they belong? I could tell you where it various individuals look like they fall from my perspective, but it isn't very flattering. _________________________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristo |
Al Franken
The Liberal Media
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:40:00 -
[2090]
Originally by: Kael Kenton
Just out of curiosity, does CCP have a written corporate code of ethics?
quotin' dis.
CCP, why don't you go and post your corporate code of conduct online somewhere so your customers can see?
Seeing how you've completely screwed the pooch on maintaining employee discipline, it would be helpful for your subscribers to see at least what your employees are theoretically responsible for.
|
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Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:41:00 -
[2091]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 stuff
Avon, I really honor that finally some1 from BOB give a reaction about what happened these days. I also wanna add that I dont think that the "normal" BOB grunt did know about all that like 90% of alliance players don`t know what happen in HQ ! I also think that a lot ppl give a **** about these BPOs ! I believe the higher value was the intel advantage that you had and no one will ever believe you that there was no intel leakage from T20 what is by far more worth then a few T2 BPOs. Think about it, several BOB HC players stated that they were RL friends a few times, do you really believe they only talked about the nice weather in Iceland ?
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots |
Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:42:00 -
[2092]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 Right, I have read every post on this this subject, and I have this to say:
Firstly, am am honestly shocked that there was any truth to these allegations, and disappointed. You lot probably won't believe me, but frankly I could care less.
Secondly, I trust CCP have taken whatever action they think appropriate. It may not be enough for some, but calling for more isn't really going to change anything. IMHO T20 should have been sacked when this was orginally discovered, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I can live with that.
Any BoB characters who knowingly took advantage of T20 should be punished as appropriate.
Kuwhateverhisname is should remain banned. If he had just outed all this as some sort of service to the community, that would have been one thing (although there is really no excuse for airing all this in public anyway), but that isn't the case, is it? He tried to use this information for personal gain, revealing bit and peices in exchange for ingame isk, whilst trying to get BoB and CCP to cough up to silence him. He is no hero.
If he had done the "right thing", all of this could have been resolved privately, as such matters should. Harming the game in order to forward his own agenda has achieved nothing, and it never can.
I can't even see how you people can defend him. His actions are not "for the greater good", they were for his own good. What next, a webpage listing ever infraction against every player, ever? (Not that it would affect me, I am a good boy in-game .. although the forums do let me down a little)
Do I believe that BoB are where they are because of T20? Honestly, no.
Frankly, if the BPO's go back on the lottery there is a good chance they will end up back in BoB's hands anyway. We have bought up (for huge amounts of perfectly legally earned ISK) a vast array of blueprints, and we would probably be able to buy up these.
People want to think the worst of BoB, and I am cool with that. We have purposely fostered an image of being Eve's "bad guys", and it has worked well for us. We enjoy being the bad guys. That does not, however, mean supporting cheating.
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
I feel for CCP, I feel for BoB, and I feel for the community.
This whole affair could have been handled in a much better way, but alas we are where we are.
What now?
Do we, as CCP suggest, try to put this behind us and move on; or do we do all we can to risk the future of this game?
I have invested a lot in Eve, and I really don't want to see it die, so what now?
The ultimate future of Eve is in the hands of the community, you, me, everyone.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
BOB killed EVE with their dirty underhanded tacticts, i wouldnt expect any less of 'em..
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems) |
Kramerite
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:42:00 -
[2093]
Originally by: Juwi Kotch In my RL job I'm a crisis management planner for one of the world's top 10 companies.
Part of crisis management planning is to have crisis communication plans. These plans are mainly made to minimize reputational loss in situations where the media jumps on the corporation. Other part is how to deal internally to re-establish trust and confidence.
When a situation like this happens, and you do not have plans, a corporation's management typically sits around in meetings, more or less desperate and stunned, not knowing what to do. To the public that appears as inactivity, appeasement, or just as they do not care. This makes the situation worse, and increases the reputational loss, quickly additionally creating financial losses as the corporation starts to loose customers, and the reputational loss starts to affect sales.
There is only one correct answer to situations like this, proven in many, many cases throughout the world:
Quick and harsh reaction, better over-reaction then under-reaction, to demonstrate the intact integrity of the corporation's management, and to reasonably justify that the corporation can be trusted in future.
Everytime a management reacts like CCP is reacting now, the situation turned into a major disaster, in the end more often then not resulting in the vanishing of the corporation from the markets.
I would hate to see that happen to CCP, I have plans for years to come...
Juwi Kotch
Sack T20, Permaban the BoD CEO's and ban all the BoD Capship pilots who breached the EULA for a month.
If BoD are as good as they claim and don't need "assistance", they should be able to recover from a little setback such as this.
Is that over-reacting enough?
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Kristanna
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:46:00 -
[2094]
I believe that any CCP employee who is still in BOB should be removed to restore some credibility to the community. I also believe that a statement should be made to the community that this has occured.
mmmm page 75 and still going...
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:46:00 -
[2095]
Originally by: Sun Ra
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Heritor No need to terminate anybodys employment. I believe he (T20) knows what needs to be done so we can move on and allow CCP to rebuild it relationship, Integrtety and trust with it large customer base.
And how exactly can we move on?
The real culprits havent been punished, the whistleblower has had all his accounts banned, BOB ceo's and maybe directors, knew that t20 was a dev, they should have reported him, they chose to abuse him!
t20 gave unfair advantage to BOB, knowledge of game mechanics, exploits, etc.. (seriously, man, think about it).
BOB would not be where they are now, without this traitor.
So, Sack the traitor, make an example to other dev/gm/isd.
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
At the moment, CCP are twisting th EULA to their own satisfaction.
FREE KUGUTSUMEN
He was in RKK for 7 months, he didnt take part in the GNW, FA war & ASCN War etc, so how doe syour logic work??
you wouldnt know that as you arent even a year old(and yes im sure your hiding behind a lame alt)
Hi m8i ;)
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems) |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 10:47:00 -
[2096]
Originally by: Hemroid
Originally by: Mal Renolds
CCP dont you think we wouldve liked to talk about this during fanfest?
I'm sure it will be a topic at the next one....
only Bob and developers there anyway you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:51:00 -
[2097]
Originally by: Avon If he had just outed all this as some sort of service to the community, that would have been one thing (although there is really no excuse for airing all this in public anyway), but that isn't the case, is it?
while i respect you and your open post, i have to say this is wrong. there is a perfectly valid excuse and reason: CCP is the one being under suspicion and they can't be trusted to do anythign at all if he would have done this privately. if you suspect your government of illegal deeds, would you try to sue them or take other ways?
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Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:52:00 -
[2098]
Originally by: Kael Kenton [ Bingo. Anyone with any real integrity would have "fallen on the grenade" by now, packed his things and headed for a different employer. Or, at the very least, requested transfer to a non-EVE related project.
Just out of curiosity, does CCP have a written corporate code of ethics? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the answer is "no". Is anyone there familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development? Could someone at CCP tell us in which stage they feel they belong? I could tell you where it various individuals look like they fall from my perspective, but it isn't very flattering.
No I think that CCP as a whole would best be described as having a stage 5 mentality. This was displayed by their unwillingness to subject t20 to double jeopardy as kieron stated in the other thread.
This was also displayed in their handling of the case of GoonSwarm modifying their clients. They judged the intent of the actions and their consequences and shared the benefits of them with the rest of the game, instead of just blindly mashing the ban button they considered the issue and it's effect and chose wisely to A) not ban and B)share the benefits with the rest of the game to make sure everything was fair and in line.
Sure t20's personal stage of moral development might be only at stage 2 on Kohlberg's ratting but that doesn't mean CCP needs to inflict a moral charter upon themselves.
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Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:54:00 -
[2099]
Originally by: Admiral Feelgood
Sure t20's personal stage of moral development might be only at stage 2 on Kohlberg's ratting but that doesn't mean CCP needs to inflict a moral charter upon themselves.
That's not to say they don't either but I'm just saying that this one incident and it's after effects aren't necessarily indicative of CCP as a whole being morally devoid or lacking.
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Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:56:00 -
[2100]
As for the account sharing, sure if they are banned id like CCP to look into all eve accounts for sharing and ban everyone who had a corp mate move a ship or change a skill. No doubt alot of people will get banned if this ever happened
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
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Killer Dragon
Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:57:00 -
[2101]
Originally by: Avon
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
So, do you encourage the bob fleets flying around with [DEV] as there ship tag?
Seems to me there just mocking the situation.
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Watauga
Minmatar Imperial Guardians
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:00:00 -
[2102]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 Do I believe that BoB are where they are because of T20? Honestly, no.
t20 held an important position of leadership in BoB. He had an impact. He also had insider knowledge about the game. Whether or not he had malicious intent is not the point. That knowledge influenced his decisions in game and produced a major conflict of interests. There is no way to know how much of an impact he had on BoB, but I believe it was no small matter.
In regards to Kugutsumen, he should remained only if the EULA is being strictly enforced across the board. Sir Molle should also be banned because he violated the EULA by posting Kugutsumen's personal information. t20 should have been fired as well, however I don't know how legal that would be now if CCP took some sort of puitive action against him when this occurred several months ago.
One of the reasons I play Eve Online is the way it emulates RL economics and politics. I love to follow American politics and I see a lot of parallels between this scandal and those of RL. If CCP doesn't take more decisive action in this case and show more transparency in respect to its professional staff playing Eve, the situation is only going to get much worse.
Watauga
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:00:00 -
[2103]
The interesting questions still open in this thread haven't been answered yet.
1) Were the improperlly allocated BPO's created or was the tech 2 lottery manipulated.
2) Is CCP going to apply it's EULA evenlly or are there still going to be some groups that are "More Equal" than other paying customers?
3) Will there be a way outside the pettition system to contact the IAD department set up or will they only be reviewing logs?
4) Since this is the Second incident to be investigated only after a public outcry will the IAD department be set up as a proactive or reactive department.
5) Will the other issues raised in the 3rd party forums also be investigated and the results included here in a timelly manner?
If I missed any sorry but that is what I remember as not being answered. Hopefully the venting is over and the time to discuss rationaly has begun.
For those calling for t20 to be fired we are customers not shaerholders, that is a corperate decision not a game factor. All we can expect for our money is entertainment and level playing field.
To bash an alliance for the actions of a few is wrong as well, most probablly had no idea what happens at the top. Each members actions should speak for themselves and you never raise yourself up by stepping on others.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:02:00 -
[2104]
Quote: Frankly, if the BPO's go back on the lottery there is a good chance they will end up back in BoB's hands anyway.
anyone who read kugs forums know this anyway, we all saw the stuff posted from the bob's forums of them planning out who would take which agents.
why were they not using the best agents like everyone else again?
its pretty much common knowledge why they would not choose to use the agents that generate the most RPS now....
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
zARQU0N
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:02:00 -
[2105]
Hmm 75 pages and still no official response/action from CCP?
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Torchic
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 11:04:00 -
[2106]
Originally by: Killer Dragon
Originally by: Avon
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
So, do you encourage the bob fleets flying around with [DEV] as there ship tag?
Seems to me there just mocking the situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not the EULA clearly state that impersonating or trying to be perceived as a member of CCP staff when you are not result in a BAN on it's own?
A question directly for t20 -- If you had such great remorse and disgust with yourself (over getting caught, let's get real here kids) why didn't you simply ask for the bpo's back and destroy them yourself or turn them over to one of the honest devs (hate to say this but if there are any?).
Further, and I have asked myself the same question - why are we all bothering to pay any more attention to this message board at all, we've been fed nothing but bull until they are so backed into a corner like a killer with a bloody knife finally tells the cops "ok ok I stabbed him, but you don't have to shoot, I'll put the knife down I swear." So if the cop lets the guy get the knife back and stab him, who's the real idiot? |
Kalindra naskan
Amarr Reprocity Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:07:00 -
[2107]
Originally by: zARQU0N Hmm 75 pages and still no official response/action from CCP?
Dev comments concerning the Hellmar and t20 blogs
Look before you post. --- This sig is rated "N" for Nonexistant It's nonexistent btw - Cortes Meh, same thing. |
BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 11:08:00 -
[2108]
Edited by: BustyBounty on 11/02/2007 11:07:03
Originally by: zARQU0N Hmm 75 pages and still no official response/action from CCP?
not many responses in keirons thread either, maybe there all in a crisis meeting or white wolf is spanking them hard knowing the mmo they are doing together is going to look like a bad apple from the start
btw ccp MAX CLIFFORD can help you but i doubt hes cheap. ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Morden Nok
Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:09:00 -
[2109]
Post by T20
I think from that post you can easily see how sorry T20 was about all this before public was informed about this by Kugutsumen.
He was mightily annoyed that he was caught and said:
Originally by: t20
So if you find out a dev by accident (I hope for your sake it's an accidental figuring-out of, otherwise if you're actively hunting dev identities, i can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die ... ) have the sportmansship to keep it to yourself (confirmed or unconfirmed), consider it a test on the lost art of keeping secrets.
I think this explains general Dev mentality towards exposing ANY exploits done by dev characters. No wonder Kugutsumen got banned... Of course CCP can claim that "He was banned for something completely unrelated to this" just like all whistleblowers are always fired "for something completely unrelated to the whistleblowing". No one in their right minds will now believe if CCP says "We had a good reason, but can't tell you what it is.".
I'd now like to ask Kieron 3 questions: 1) You knew those BPO's were results of T20s exploits 7 months ago.. You should have removed them immediately. Why were they allowed to stay in BoB until community was told about this incident?
2) You have stated that "Any serious misconduct is punished by non-negotiable termination" Why was it negotiated down, and what exactly was T20's punishment?
3) Why did you not publish this 7 months ago when you found out? You have lost all credibility in face of your subscribers now with your repeated attempts to cover this up.
It only makes us wonder how often do these things happen really, considering how useless your "Internal Affairs Department" seems to be. It looks like that even if they find a wrongdoing, it's not gonna be punished unless the community gets informed somehow....
2)
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Watauga
Minmatar Imperial Guardians
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 11:10:00 -
[2110]
Originally by: zARQU0N Hmm 75 pages and still no official response/action from CCP?
Tbh, they may have not responded, because it is the weekend which is why they may have waited until Friday to post their conclusions. They may have hoped this would blow over by Monday. However, for some reason, I think there will be a special meeting on Monday morning. Knowing my luck their response will be the next post.
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Admiral Feelgood
Even-Flow Bad Company.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:16:00 -
[2111]
Edited by: Admiral Feelgood on 11/02/2007 11:13:42 ugh screw this forget i ever posted
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Quartex
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:17:00 -
[2112]
I am a big fan of the employees of CCP playing the game but under proper supervision.
However, their involvement should be managed according to their individual access to the means to influence the game through mechanisms un-available to paying customers and audited by an independent team. The latter is now in place.
Those CCP employees with expertise that could be used to cheat, should be involved in NPC role play organisations. Ambassadors from the Jove, Blood Raider raiding party et al for example. They should be given everything they need, to test the way the game behaves in stress situations on tranquility.
Those employees lacking this ability to cheat should be allowed to join Corporations and play without people knowing their background. If they are discovered at any point it should be possible for a name/character change, so that they can continue to experience our experiences as players, first hand. What I tell my corp mates about my rl is up to me, it should be the same for these employees.
For the second group it should be possible to use research agents, Dreads, Carriers and even Titans if they build up sufficient resources through play time to do so.
I bet there are few macroers and complex exploiters that have been discovered by CCP. Perhaps some of this good work should be published to counter balance T20's actions.
Hilmar has said already that CCP employees will continue to play the game and I for one am pleased with that. I cannot imagine how tense the offices of CCP are right now with lots of employees, who play in game, worried about "being discovered" for nothing more than enjoying the game.
We can choose to continue looking back at a mistake that CCP has made, or look forward and get back to building a game we are all proud of.
Sure, CCP need to rebuild our trust and I am sure that they will make this a key business objective for the next 12 months. So far I have been impressed with their calm understated, professional response.
It is sad that this episode will undermine the efforts of all those honest BoB pilots and CCP employees over the last 3 years. We all have a responsibility to "out" cheaters and in this endeavour every EvE Corporation and CCP employee should be on common ground and sharing a common objective; to keep this game we all love moving forward!
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TZeer
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:19:00 -
[2113]
Edited by: TZeer on 11/02/2007 11:16:36
Quote: We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
So why this?? Stuff meh, typical... deleted by mods...
Anyway, it was a guy who had been unknowingly supplying stuff for a farming network. He was a market trader. CCP found out of the network and took all his isk, setting him back to -2.5 bil.
So how is this different then the BOB/DEV thingy?
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:25:00 -
[2114]
Originally by: Avon
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
Everyone in Bob support pretexting and illegal access to other alliances forum. Bob have proudly posted that they are the best in the game at that.
Originally by: Avon
The ultimate future of Eve is in the hands of the community, you, me, everyone.
I believe that CCP is the part that can control the future of Eve. They need to stop the lies so we can believe that we are playing on an even field. So far they are only admitting stuff we already know. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Del369
Caldari Office linebackers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:30:00 -
[2115]
Originally by: Avon Musings
Well Avon, what would "doing it through official channels and out of the public eye have achieved" ? basically thats how it was handled back in the summer, nice and quietly, bpo's not even removed, as limited an investigation as possible just to sweep it all conveniently under the rug and maintain a very very nice and lucrative status quo, yes that would definately be the best for CCP and BOB, however for the rest of us paying customers, going that route achieved almost nothing right ? When the system is rotten to core, the last thing you can expect is an investigation into itself being anywhere near adequate, hence the peasants having to hurl crap at large fans, to get justice, ugly it is, but it's not through us the paying customers fault is it ? For all those people calling for t20's resignation, get over yourselves and see the bigger picture, presume for a moment that you get what you want, whats the net result ? two words sacrificial lamb, hey it's all sorted, it was only ever this one thing and for the rest everyones angel wings remain intact, which i think the vast majority of us know by now that t20 is only the tip of a very very nasty large pile of crap. Someone suggested that all the Dev's need to go back to the beginning anyway, and start again, completely fresh, with nothing, how can the Dev's be in touch with their game from a noobs point of view when they all have multi billions of isk and assets ? they can't, so kill 2 birds with one stone here, and it will be good for the game.
Originally by: Wrangler That is an outright lie! We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!
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Helmut 314
Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:31:00 -
[2116]
In an ironically sad way what t20 confessed to proves that Eve is probably the greatest game out there. Cheating in any game just proves that you cant win by normal means, proof that t20 had an unsound relationship to this game. I have had friends quit the game as they got so involved that their RL suffered and they had no option but to cut the connection.
As long as Galavet doesnt come clean on RKK:s behalf and tells us what he and RKK leadership knew about T20, his BPO donation and other activities in the corp all we have is Kugutsumens word. If there was "secret t20 infos" as Kugutsumen claims in his blogs, go for it, tell us and you can start repairing your reputation. As long as all we get is corporate doublespeak and silence, guess whos credibility grows day by day ?
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Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Ranita Drell
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:35:00 -
[2117]
Edited by: Ranita Drell on 11/02/2007 11:35:10 I've never touched 0.0 space and I'm a relatively new player (a lot of time spent inactive). I was originally suspicious of the allegations (having picked them up third hand here and there from your occasional and often inarticulate forum poster in other topics) and held no ill will towards BoB nor did have any relationship whatsoever with anybody who plays this game at the higher levels or works for CCP. I am, or a least was, relatively impartial before I started reading about this whole sordid affair.
First, while I think it is a good thing that t20 was compelled to "come clean," he is a proven liar and cheat and quite frankly, I do not have any real faith in his word. He has admitted to pretty much the minimum of what most of the community seems to have strongly suspected and/or could be well proven. This does seem rather convenient and though I can't prove his guilt beyond what he has admitted, I strongly suspect that his wrongdoing and betrayal of the community does go beyond what he .
Second, I think that CCP's response in general to these allegations has been poor at best. In Kieron's previous post he laments how unfortunate it is that dev characters had to be deleted in this incident and glosses over allegations of dev misconduct, tries to shield the alleged favored alliance from a backlash over the controversy by saying that other devs play in other alliances, and then expresses hope that we can "put this all behind us with the support of the EVE community." The community (aside from a few BoB members who passive-aggressively or outright aggressively tried to make those of us who suspected dev misconduct feel like creckpot [sic - overzealous profanity filter] malcontents) then made it clear that this response is NOT adequate. Days later we get THIS response.
This is either incredibly incompetent management and public relations or a string of deceptions perpetuated by CCP against its customers that has not, as of yet, come to an end.
Third, I cannot possibly understand how CCP can continue to employ the man who blatantly betrayed them and his customers while the whistle-blower who helped bring this whole mess to to light is denied the privilege of paying to play the game. Absolutely ridiculous. If you're going to take a hard line, take a hard line. If you're going to be lenient, be lenient. The one thing that seems certain from this whole affair is that CCP does indeed play favorites and is terribly inconsistent in its policy enforcement, apparently even at the highest levels ... and that's what's disturbing. Every game of EVE's size has a few corrupt GMs, that's unfortunate, but no big deal. What's unfortunate is when even the company's CEO doesn't have much to say about the affair but "what's done is done and we'll try to do better."
Lastly, this post should go in the Player's Corner. If you're going to come clean, come clean to EVERY customer who was betrayed, not just the few who read these forums.
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:36:00 -
[2118]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan
Originally by: zARQU0N Hmm 75 pages and still no official response/action from CCP?
Dev comments concerning the Hellmar and t20 blogs
Look before you post.
Yeah but did you read what is contained in there....nada of substance...just whitewash.
This Char is an Alt.
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ingriD
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:40:00 -
[2119]
This game can be killed by corrpution
be safe devs :)
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Kerdrak
Amarr 3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:40:00 -
[2120]
This is a shame, CCP knows their devs cheat and THIS is a scam to their players. I want a compensation for this (firing t20, change in rules about TechII, etc...), if at the end of this month this continues my account will be cancelled. And IŠm sure I won't be the only one...
t20 has confessed because was caught <-- this doesn't deserves to be forgiven. IŠm sure there are more "black spots" to be "discovered". ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
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aggro
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:49:00 -
[2121]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 Right, I have read every post on this this subject, and I have this to say:
Firstly, am am honestly shocked that there was any truth to these allegations, and disappointed. You lot probably won't believe me, but frankly I could care less.
Secondly, I trust CCP have taken whatever action they think appropriate. It may not be enough for some, but calling for more isn't really going to change anything. IMHO T20 should have been sacked when this was orginally discovered, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I can live with that.
Any BoB characters who knowingly took advantage of T20 should be punished as appropriate.
Kuwhateverhisname is should remain banned. If he had just outed all this as some sort of service to the community, that would have been one thing (although there is really no excuse for airing all this in public anyway), but that isn't the case, is it? He tried to use this information for personal gain, revealing bit and peices in exchange for ingame isk, whilst trying to get BoB and CCP to cough up to silence him. He is no hero.
If he had done the "right thing", all of this could have been resolved privately, as such matters should. Harming the game in order to forward his own agenda has achieved nothing, and it never can.
I can't even see how you people can defend him. His actions are not "for the greater good", they were for his own good. What next, a webpage listing ever infraction against every player, ever? (Not that it would affect me, I am a good boy in-game .. although the forums do let me down a little)
Do I believe that BoB are where they are because of T20? Honestly, no.
Frankly, if the BPO's go back on the lottery there is a good chance they will end up back in BoB's hands anyway. We have bought up (for huge amounts of perfectly legally earned ISK) a vast array of blueprints, and we would probably be able to buy up these.
People want to think the worst of BoB, and I am cool with that. We have purposely fostered an image of being Eve's "bad guys", and it has worked well for us. We enjoy being the bad guys. That does not, however, mean supporting cheating.
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
I haven't been able to bring myself to log on since this news came out. Not out of shame, because I have nothing to be ashamed about, but more just to let the whole thing sink in.
I feel for CCP, I feel for BoB, and I feel for the community.
This whole affair could have been handled in a much better way, but alas we are where we are.
What now?
Do we, as CCP suggest, try to put this behind us and move on; or do we do all we can to risk the future of this game?
I have invested a lot in Eve, and I really don't want to see it die, so what now?
The ultimate future of Eve is in the hands of the community, you, me, everyone.
It is time to act like the mature individuals we all are, and not the mob we have become.
nice post
i do feel sorry for the bob grunts{no disrespect intended}. they have been let down by there superiors. they are owed a huge PUBLIC apology from their bosses. This does not seem forthcoming so it would seem that they do not care for there members who now have to carry with them the stigma of cheaters.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:49:00 -
[2122]
So, what other shenanigans are going on behind the scenes by other CCP employees that haven't yet been exposed? I frankly have no reason whatsoever to trust any single GM, ISD or Dev.
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:50:00 -
[2123]
Originally by: Del369
Originally by: Avon Musings
Well Avon, what would "doing it through official channels and out of the public eye have achieved" ? basically thats how it was handled back in the summer, nice and quietly, bpo's not even removed, as limited an investigation as possible just to sweep it all conveniently under the rug and maintain a very very nice and lucrative status quo, yes that would definately be the best for CCP and BOB, however for the rest of us paying customers, going that route achieved almost nothing right ? When the system is rotten to core, the last thing you can expect is an investigation into itself being anywhere near adequate, hence the peasants having to hurl crap at large fans, to get justice, ugly it is, but it's not through us the paying customers fault is it ? For all those people calling for t20's resignation, get over yourselves and see the bigger picture, presume for a moment that you get what you want, whats the net result ? two words sacrificial lamb, hey it's all sorted, it was only ever this one thing and for the rest everyones angel wings remain intact, which i think the vast majority of us know by now that t20 is only the tip of a very very nasty large pile of crap. Someone suggested that all the Dev's need to go back to the beginning anyway, and start again, completely fresh, with nothing, how can the Dev's be in touch with their game from a noobs point of view when they all have multi billions of isk and assets ? they can't, so kill 2 birds with one stone here, and it will be good for the game.
Exactly, how can a DEV experience the game anyway, except as some Uber pilot in a Dread/Titan/Carrier? that's not the experience of an average player, and certainly not that of n00b's. If DEV's wnat to experince the game then they should start at the bottom like everybody else, and hardscrabble for every ISK like the rest of us.
This Char is an Alt.
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Del369
Caldari Office linebackers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:51:00 -
[2124]
Edited by: Del369 on 11/02/2007 11:53:11
Yes but firing him only allows an exit strategy and a return to the "norm" none of us want to see again, who does that benefit ? us the peasants ? hell no, hence bust him back to a n00b (and all the other Devs) thats far worse punishment, and good for the game. This makes an excellent round up of the whole situation
Originally by: Wrangler That is an outright lie! We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!
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Sophia Germain
Gallente Fluxion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:05:00 -
[2125]
Edited by: Sophia Germain on 11/02/2007 12:03:49
What has happened disgusts me so much. I spend a lot of time every single day running the daily R&D bonus missions in hopes of getting a T2 BPO, and then we get slapped on the face with news that a DEV playing the game spawns BPOs for his corp. How exactly is this a fair setting to us regular players? It's not the quality or the amount of BPOs here that matters, it's the principle.
If it was that, but no, the coverup done by CCP just makes this all seem worse. Kugutsumen provided the proof about the incident, and what happened - he was BANNED for it! Why isn't Sir Molle banned for what he did then? Why aren't people sharing account information illegally against EULA being banned for what they are doing?
What CCP needs is a healthy does of CONSISTENCY in how they operate in critical situations like this. One moment a player is banned for a violation of EULA, and one moment not no matter how similar the situations are. Sacking t20 would be a good start in showing the playerbase and other DEVs that such things as happened lately are strictly prohibited and will lead to severe actions being taken against any individuals undertaking them. Right now CCP is showing a partially green light to cheating and scamming, and that won't lead to anything positive.
CCP, set your operations in line with EULA. Ban everyone who's violated your EULA. The amount of people leaving the game via bans would be far smaller than the amount of people who will leave if you do nothing to restore the lost trust of your playerbase.
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DevilHanzo
Gallente Acuario Mining Industries Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:08:00 -
[2126]
I will admit that i was p*ssed when i picked up on this on friday but since then i've had the weekend to think about it.
I now believe that we, me inclusive, were and are continuing to do as much damage to the game and its reputation as the original incident has done.
There are some pretty big paintbrushes being wielded in this thread and it is making our top notch community look rather silly now.
My opinion,
BoB - i feel sorry for the majority of you who play fair, i am worried that you will be forever tarnished by this. This is unfortunate, however some of your members are not doing you any favours and seem to think this is all about BoB. Sorry to say but the majority of people here dont really care too much about you or what you do. You have a right to defend yourself but this issue is bigger than you.
BoB haters - as someone who has not played long i can not say i understand what it is like to fight against a strong alliance like BoB. Although, if half of you put the energy you have shown in posting here into organising a strong alliance to go and fight BoB then you must stand a chance. Think how good that would be for the game! a huge battle against BoB could be the turning point to getting EvE back to its former glory. I am also sure that BoB players would rather be fighting things out in deep space than posting replys and rebuttals in the forums every 10 mins.
CCP - Shame on you i'm afraid. Although you are obviously going to suffer the most for your indecision and slow response. Its just my opinion but the dev in question should not be fired, instead they should do the right thing and remove themselves from the EvE community. I have no problem with them continuing to work for CCP but can you not reassign them to a different project ? Maybe working on one of the excellent releases you have in store for us ? I understand that it is difficult to lose skilled people so why not channel his talents somewhere else ?
EvE community - I know this tough for us but it really is time to move on and let CCP respond once they have pulled themselves together. I find it hard to imagine that there will not be some fundamental changes in CCP's procedures and that these changes will give us more transparency and security in the future.
Let us not forget the reason we love this game over other MMOG.
I've seen things you wouldn't believe.... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:12:00 -
[2127]
Originally by: Myz Toyou
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 10:08:42 stuff
Avon, I really honor that finally some1 from BOB give a reaction about what happened these days. I also wanna add that I dont think that the "normal" BOB grunt did know about all that like 90% of alliance players don`t know what happen in HQ ! I also think that a lot ppl give a **** about these BPOs ! I believe the higher value was the intel advantage that you had and no one will ever believe you that there was no intel leakage from T20 what is by far more worth then a few T2 BPOs. Think about it, several BOB HC players stated that they were RL friends a few times, do you really believe they only talked about the nice weather in Iceland ?
I honestly disagree. A lot of BoB members, myself included, spend a lot of time planning for upcomming changes to the game. There is no need for top secret magical intel, all the information is available on the forums and on SiSi.
Having a discussion with a Dev (we used to have those as a community, remember?) isn't likely to do much more than frustrate you (no offense guys). They are heavy on plans, ideas, and direction .. but they never actually seem to have any idea how these things are going to be put in to place.
If the goal here is to have a reasoned and objective discussion, then we have to seperate those allegations which may be based on fact from those which are obviously pie-in-the-sky conspiracy mania.
Look at the Cargo Expander II BPO thing. I had absolutely no information from CCP that the T1 BPO's would be made T2, but it was glaringly obvious that it was going to happen.
Why?
Well, the Exapnded Cargo I was seeded through the T2 lottery in limited numbers (IIRC). It was in effect a T2 BPO in terms of availability and stats, just not in name (and build requirements & skill I guess). With invention being introduced, creating T2 prints from T1 prints was obviously going to cause a problem with the expanders, as the T1 print was not an NPC item. Most of the scurrying about that was seen over the T1 prints before the patch was actually bluster to try and force the prices up. You see, people were trying to offload them BEFORE they became T2, not collect them. They already had a monopoly akin to a T2 print, but invention was going to cut in to that.
It wasn't a case of Dev manipulation, or anything covert like that, it was just a case of clever players making use of the information that was there for everyone to see.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:15:00 -
[2128]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Avon
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
Everyone in Bob support pretexting and illegal access to other alliances forum. Bob have proudly posted that they are the best in the game at that.
You know how stupid the pretexting arguement is, right?
When you register for the Morsus Mihi forum, did you use your real name or "Xthril Ranger"? If you used your character name, you are "pretexting" - pretending to be someone you are not. There is no difference between that, and you having a BoB alt and registering on their forums with that character. Both are perfectly legitimate uses of out-of-game resources, and both are done under an assumed identity.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:16:00 -
[2129]
posted early on, on this topic and talked about devs not been able to play, but i agree they are definatly needed as part of the game to help it develope, busting them back to n00b status would be counter productive as 90% of eve arnt n00bs we are the 5mil to 20mil sp players that make up the majority no doubt, so i propose ALL CCP staff involved in the development and enjoyment of the game should be allowed to make a charicter of 5mil - 10mil sp given a small amount of isk (200mil) and a few basic ships and fitting this would allow them to exspariance the game that they love first hand at the same level as us not with n00bs or there 3yr old 40mil sp charicters this isnt ment as a compramise this is a logical place to enver ccp staff into the game.
I hope this post isnt flamed or ignored as imho this would be a good selution were ccp staff get to play, we feel like some "justic" has been served and imo the largest factor in this the game will develope better as ccp staff would feel the struggle of play like 90% of all eve players do instead of as the eliete or as a nub Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Elrich Zann
Minmatar Hidden Agenda
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:22:00 -
[2130]
Edited by: Elrich Zann on 11/02/2007 12:21:56 "It is our hopes will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations" - kieron 09/02/2007
They don't.
t20 did 2 things wrong, he cheated, and he knew of cheating going on in an alliance and didn't report it. CCP has not addressed the the second issue.
I could care less about BoB or alliance politics, as a casual player, I live in empire and enjoy the friends I have made there. However I care about rules. When you break the rules there should be consequences, if not then they are not rules, but simply guidelines to be followed on a whim.
EVE is not controlled by solely by CCP. Players (more specifically Alliances and Corps) have a significant impact on EVE. Players "control their own destiny" moreso than any other MMO. It's one of EVE's greatest selling points. When a DEV plays the game, he/she has a significant advantage over the average player, and in EVE when one player can take everything from another this advantage is unfair.
While I agree that DEVs should play the game to experience it and correct it's weaknesses/faults. They should NEVER be in a position to influence the actions of others. This is a conflict of interest. Devs should NEVER be in a position to influence Alliance or Corporation directions, Actions, Politics, or Economy. It is WRONG and creates an unfair advantage. Additionally any CCP employee who observes cheating going on and doesn't report it should be FIRED instantly. Almost every company I know has rules very similar to that. By condoning the actions of it's employees CCP is condoning the actions themselves.
I feel for the CEO of CCP, this is a horrible position to have been put in. Your reputation and the companys reputation are seriously hurt by this. To the employees of CCP who have worked hard to make this the great game it is, t20 has stabbed you in the back and jeopordized your careers. Something you too did not deserve. I am sorry for you.
Will I leave EVE? I haven't decided yet. I don't think this is over by a long shot. CCP needs to continue open and honest communication with it's players and perhaps the trust can be repaired. Coverups will kill the game, at least for me. Enforce the rules evenly accross the board or remove them. The CEO clearly understands this, and it is never too late to do the right thing.
edit: spelling |
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:29:00 -
[2131]
Edited by: Enaria Ferenic on 11/02/2007 12:26:06
Originally by: maximus babbarus posted early on, on this topic and talked about devs not been able to play, but i agree they are definatly needed as part of the game to help it develope, busting them back to n00b status would be counter productive as 90% of eve arnt n00bs we are the 5mil to 20mil sp players that make up the majority no doubt, so i propose ALL CCP staff involved in the development and enjoyment of the game should be allowed to make a charicter of 5mil - 10mil sp given a small amount of isk (200mil) and a few basic ships and fitting this would allow them to exspariance the game that they love first hand at the same level as us not with n00bs or there 3yr old 40mil sp charicters this isnt ment as a compramise this is a logical place to enver ccp staff into the game.
I hope this post isnt flamed or ignored as imho this would be a good selution were ccp staff get to play, we feel like some "justic" has been served and imo the largest factor in this the game will develope better as ccp staff would feel the struggle of play like 90% of all eve players do instead of as the eliete or as a nub
Good idea...allow the DEV's to play the game as an 'average' player....and they are not allowed develop their characters to uber status...and if DEV chars want to play with 'DEV powers', then only on the test server.
I don't hate BoB per se, nor do i hate all BoB players, i'm just pev'ed about cheating and the fact that CCP seem to be so intimately involved/tarnished by this.
This Char is an Alt.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:32:00 -
[2132]
Edited by: MuthaTrucka on 11/02/2007 12:29:55
Originally by: Avon
My reputation in Eve is, I think, pretty solid. I may be in BoB, but I am not BoB. I support BoB, but I will never condone cheating.
Eve is on the meta gaming level all about reputation and perceptions. BoB Is now reaping what it sowed, and what was once laughed at and joked about by BoB as tinfoil hattery has been proven true in at least one case. When I use BoB I mean the alliance not the alliance members because there is no doubt in my mind it is "not" a vast conspiracy of every BoB member. The Actions of the Few here are reflecting on the whole.
The Fact you are finally here trying to run some damage control is laudable but just reinforces the perception that is currently instate. Fact of the matter is the reputation whether you want it to be or not is tarnished, not by BoB in reality, by CCP who covered it up for 7 months and allowed it to continue until they could no longer hide it from the player base. The People that are purely BoB hating are wrong as much as the people who are purely CCP Apologists. The Greater Problem is With the Cover up and the Obvious incompotence that comes with enforcing the EULA.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:34:00 -
[2133]
Avon. First i thank you for being here and reading this, i apriciate that.
Im not after BOB in anyway...hmmm....maby in the past ingame...but no one is perfect ;) lol
I think that its not the BPO`s that is the problem, the problem is that other persons violation against the EULA have not been punnished, that the answers from ccp is taking to long to come (its bloody weekend folks)and when you just glance all this stuff its werry easy to conclude that BOB is someones favorite (not doing that my self)
I just want justice, all under the same rules. You brake the rules you get punnished, not that brief excuses and etc will get you of the hook...just plain justice....
Im sad to se this happening to BOB, have friends there, and some favorite foes and this is getting out of proportions. CCP needs to deal with this as soon as posible, but not to fast and without brains, there responce to this have to be werry well thought, even if it takes a week or 2 to get there.
Most of real life scandals wouldnt be made publick unless some jounalists "bended" the rules abit, and that is where i stand against the K dude. But "yes there is always a but" he should have gone straight to ccp with the info and if they then had covered it up he should have blown it to the public. Its out here, the mmo gamers all over the world is folowing this, the game sites is posting this...
I just hope that ccp will deal with this and i realy hope that someone from high BOB(not anyone mentioned in any if this stuff) will come and tell us there stand point on all this (make a locked post just something) And i have to go prepping for this major war that someone told me is startet
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:41:00 -
[2134]
Originally by: Avon
You know how stupid the pretexting arguement is, right?
When you register for the Morsus Mihi forum, did you use your real name or "Xthril Ranger"? If you used your character name, you are "pretexting" - pretending to be someone you are not. There is no difference between that, and you having a BoB alt and registering on their forums with that character. Both are perfectly legitimate uses of out-of-game resources, and both are done under an assumed identity.
When someone registers for CLS forums his registration is approved under the assumption he is registering on the forum to engage in discussion and NOT take the info at his disposal to the corporations and alliances in EVE that CLS has set to negative standing or anyone else outside the forums actually. If you however use your account for the benefit of yourself and the enemies of CLS even if yourself are a member of CLS via an alt character that is not intended use so all your pretexting aruments about pretending to be someone else are thrown out the window.
Obviously we should start writing up forum EULA's that specify that anyone posting contents of the forums will be reported to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and then brought to civil court and be sued for stealing intellectual property.
You and your BOD buddies are to deep into the metagaming you don't see the difference between ingame and out of game stuff. CLS forums are out of game stuff and abusing those to your advantage is taking the EVE game into the real world. You at BOD started this trend.
Same rules apply to TS servers. People's registrations are approved under the rule , although not written, they will NOT use the TS information and information acquired from TS against the TS operator in my case CLS. The second you plant a CLS char BOD owns into CLS's TS and use the information gathered there to further your cause against CLS you are in breach of TS rules. More importantly you are abusing an out of game resource to gain advantage in an ingame scenario.
Using spies in EVE online can do enough damage ingame. Pushing the hostilities into TS servers and on privately owned and paid for forums is metagaming and breaking RL laws. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Enaria Ferenic
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 12:42:00 -
[2135]
Look, at the end of the day its all about reputation, both BoBs and CCP's, and both of them are seeing their reputation going to hell in a handcart atm. Last night, my main's corp chat was alive with what was happening (BoB/CCP cheating) and many of the corps 'old hands' were full of stories about odd happenings/strange events etc.. when ever they fought BoB (node crashes seem to have been popular).
I'm going to give a RL example about corporate reputation: Intel and the original Pentuim Floating Point Flaw. Intels' original reaction was to poh'poh the issues and then cover it up.....but they got bitten hard by both the hard core gaming community and the nascent internet. The same will happen with CCP, unless they are seen to be 'whiter than white' on this they are in big trouble.
This Char is an Alt.
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Anaris
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:43:00 -
[2136]
First up, this is my alt, my main is Alex Logan who is also in BoB and RKK whos account is currently inactive. This one will timeout soon aswell. If you can get past the corp and alliance ticker for a moment and listen to what I have to say...
I started playing eve a few years back and everything was good. My first frigate made me feel invincible, cruisers were an exciting goal to aim for and a battleship seemed like a long distant dream. I figured id see what the fuss was over this 'Eve' game and then cancel after the free trial.
During those couple of weeks, the expanse of the universe, the atmosphere oozing from every system and station, I was in awe. I even got chatting to players older than myself and decided to stick around... 'I'll give it a month i said... would be nice to fly cruisers afterall'.
Eventually I joined Friggin' Masters who were very good friends with Ushra Khan and we moved in. Wow, wasn't alliance warfare exciting. Getting myself involved with all those alliance politics, fighting the Amarr. Making daring runs up to Rens from Molden Heath which at 8 or 9 jumps felt like forever. I couldn't wait to fire up my PC everyday. Then my first taste of real meaningful PvP; ill fitted rupture vs ill fitted rupture outside a station in Rens. Heart pounding, hands shaking, juggling my modules for all I was worth and eventually boom. My first PvP kill. I was hooked. I coulndt stop talking in corp chat! What a game, and what wonderful people that play it... Subscription gets extended.
Time flies by as do the months and I find myself getting more and more involved in the game. PvP was what I played for, and there were others in Ushra Khan who firmly felt the same way. We all hung out together in the same chat channel. My nooby tags had fallen off, the shakes had stopped and been replaced by a cold, cool, relentless killer. There was always banter between us and the Amarrians, but it was always that. In character, in game and it added to the experience.
Ushra'Khan was going through an internal shift, some of us wanted to do things the others didnt and lines were beginning to form. All my buddies from the chat channel decided that we would go and join the rest of our older buddies from Ushra Khan in a corp called Reikoku.
Flying myself down through Aridia i noticed something for the first time in my eve life. Local smack, I was used to. But this was something more. It had undertones of biterness. Some members of the old Imp alliance started heckling me as a passed through local. There was definately friction here and it didnt feel friendly.
I found myself time and time again over the coming months asked why I joined BoB. Constantly seeing forum posts from people accusing us of playing on easy mode or a variety of assorted insults. I always thought to myself that if these people stopped for just a second they would see that Reikoku was probably no different to any corp in game and was formed gradually by friends. RKK is full to the brim with lots and lots of ex-Ushra Khan people.
As time ticks by I learn more about BoB and start to spend a lot more time reading the forums and following the political ties and wars that were so enthralling to me. There was friction for sure but it always felt like part and parcel of 0.0 life and it added to the game. There were insults but everything was kept above board and felt like it should... like a game.
Wars wars aplenty, time ticks by some more and all of a sudden I notice a new trend of smack towards us. Node crashing this, lag out that blah blah. It was infuriating. Suffering just as badly myself and then having to live with the excuses afterwards. This felt so different to my experiences before. Was it not possible for people just to lose a fight? Did there always have to be some excuse ? I even found myself in small gang hunting being accused by randoms of lagging out the battle. I always kept my mouth shut and just carried on playing. ======= Too stig for a real sig... |
Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:43:00 -
[2137]
Avon, I have no doubt that you and a majority of your corpies had no idea what was going on. I'm sure you do plan more than I. But even you must see that an unfair advantage was in the midst of your directors, and that information would not have been handed down to most in the alliance. I have no doubt that most BoB players are very good PvPrs. I do have doubt as to where BoB would be as an alliance without the Dev help. Until your directors come clean about what they knew or didn't know there will always be that doubt. Heres the catch...they cant say anything without being banned becouse they discussed a convo with a CCP employee, and thats against the EULA. So they can either come clean and move on to Pirates of the somethin or other, or they can hide what they knew and let the doubt remain. Either way BoB is hosed. Your alliance is sinking. I'll make you an offer too, If you are looking for a corp to fly with put in your application. You wouldn't get hanger rights or TS passwords, but it'll get you back on your feet again. We could use some good pilots. A couple of ours got disgusted about BoB having an unfair advantage and left game a while back.
Heres a gem from a little while back: SirMolle 2006.12.13 12:18:00 I dont lie to my members ever. Theres your answer. And the only one you will ever get.
Tick Tock Molle.....lol
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Anaris
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:44:00 -
[2138]
Big war with ASCN. This for me was the start of things turning sour. The forums were starting to stink up. Things were getting personal. Everwhere I started to look there were real life accusations being made. Real hurtful insults being tossed around everywhere. Was this really the same game I started playing all those years back ? Were people really this passionate about a game that they had to be so vindictive and vicious towards each other on the forums. Propaganda was one thing but I was starting to feel hate tossed around.
I take a break for a while, still havent come back properly since November time but I kept reading the forums and tried to follow the politics which had become so enthralling to me.
Then I hear this news of some dodgy bpo goings on. Forums being hacked and real life details being posted on the internet. What the hell was going on ?!!
CCP stepped in and justice was dealt. The BPO has been removed and person in question punished. I thought this would be an end to it ?
Then I started reading through the forums some more. It was like trudging through mud. Calling for an employee to be sacked. Is the fact he has been removed from the game and punished in kind not enough ? Are people really so bitter and hate filled that they want real life, yes REAL LIFE out of game action and potential un-employment wished upon someone ? Half of this being called for a swathe of people who barely have their facts in order ? Had the forums I once enjoyed reading and following so much turned so twisted and bitter ? Why do I see people bandying the word 'N*zi' around as if it doesnt mean anything ? I read the alliance section and it had just degraded completely. Locked post after locked post and the ones that I could find were open had people talking about truly tragic events like the second world war and relating them to in-game actions. People insulting Poland, people insulting this and that country.
What had happened. I couldn't believe my eyes. Hate everywhere. Like an angry mob marching with torches, not even stopping to think. People tossing around accusations everywhere I look as if they are fact.
People need to stop and breathe for a moment and realise this is only a game. Justice has been served. The people found to be involved have been punished. But this doesnt seem to be enough for some people. One lousy bpo like that is a drop in the ocean. If it means anything to some people I have twice reprocessed all my belongings totalling prolly close to 10bil, so maybe that will go some way towards that bpo. In the grand scheme of things it means nothing, and this giant mob that has risen out of the ashes of this is turning into a bitter twisted monstrosity. I'm already surrounded by enough hate filled people and terrible goings on in the world every morning I turn on the TV or pick up a news paper.
Has the fun I once had all that time back in Rens really gone ? Has the friendly banter really been replaced by ignorant people who post without stepping back and thinking for a moment ?
======= Too stig for a real sig... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 12:48:00 -
[2139]
Originally by: Sral TBear
I just want justice, all under the same rules. You brake the rules you get punnished, not that brief excuses and etc will get you of the hook...just plain justice....
I agree. But let us not forget that there have been plenty of other cases where other alliances have been proven to cheat, and no action was taken.
Honestly I would like everyone who cheats to be dealt with appropriately, no matter what affiliation they serve - it just seems that people are calling most loudly for the banstick (some hypocritically) because BoB is involved.
My take on the Sir Molle thing (posting RL info on the forums) probably isn't a popular one, but I see it as a Forum issue and not a game issue, and so punishment should be applied accordingly - and maybe it already has.
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated. Just because some people in RKK may have known the identity of the Dev does not make them automatically guilty of being cheats also. Personally I wouldn't have imagined that a Dev would have cheated to obtain BPO's. If anything their Dev status would have made me more likely to believe that their stuff was legitimate, not less.
Still, there is little point in me speculating over the details of the whole issue, simply because I do not have the fact - only the same allegations you all have.
I am happy to be open and honest about how I see the situation, and how it affects me, and I am willing to respond to questions along those lines.
Don't think I have all the answers though, becuase I don't ... no matter how much I would wish otherwise.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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EdRush
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:50:00 -
[2140]
CCP You have done a great job over the years developing the game with a tiny tiny budget compared to Sony. In one mad moment you have lost alot of credibilty with the communty at large.It will trickle back over time no doubt, as 03 vet im very disapointed . Suitable Punishment for BoB high command = Forced to listen to Blacklace continually and continually looped repeats of the Krankies . T20 should be severly dealt with, but not being sacked though RELEASE KUG !!!!!!
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:53:00 -
[2141]
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:53:00 -
[2142]
Originally by: EdRush CCP You have done a great job over the years developing the game with a tiny tiny budget compared to Sony. In one mad moment you have lost alot of credibilty with the communty at large.It will trickle back over time no doubt, as 03 vet im very disapointed . Suitable Punishment for BoB high command = Forced to listen to Blacklace continually and continually looped repeats of the Krankies . T20 should be severly dealt with, but not being sacked though RELEASE KUG !!!!!!
Looped repeats of the Krankies....lol in nealry died!
This Char is an Alt.
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Brigitte
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:53:00 -
[2143]
juesus
we came to eve thinking it was cheat free as all other on line games had. hakers/aim bots ect and here we are with more dam cheat's devs in game acting as gods? nice if you can get it i guess but wot a downer for us mortals
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:54:00 -
[2144]
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
One person got Caught Cheating.....
This Char is an Alt.
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Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:55:00 -
[2145]
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
Something like using a gm for scouting in a polaris frigate ? Or maybe gaining privileged info to win a Hel mothership ?
Who know...
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:57:00 -
[2146]
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
Did I use the word "only", or are you trying to misrepresent my post in order to forward your own agenda?
I don't know if other people in CCP have cheated. Maybe they have. Maybe that is how ASCN (who have been confirmed as having devs) got all those outposts, and the first Titan?
Point is, I don't care. So long as these things are uncovered and dealt with internally at CCP I don't feel the need to hear about it, in fact I'd rather not.
I'm not ready to give up on CCP yet.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:57:00 -
[2147]
You never ever let your reputation or integrity be tarnished, ever. When it is... you must fight to keep it or it will completely disappear.
No matter how sympathetic we all might want to be there are times when one bit logic is the only applicable standard. You either are x or you are not x. You either are corrupt or not corrupt. You have either cheated or not cheated. Your company, CCP, either has integrity or it does not.
And you currently have my billing details so mind you I'm watching how you handle misconduct/abuse in your company very very closely.
I may just start buying GTC's now.
PS: Anything else I'd say would either be flame bait, chest beating, or I told you sos. Fix it will you.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Enaria Ferenic
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 12:57:00 -
[2148]
Originally by: Anaris Big war with ASCN. This for me was the start of things turning sour. The forums were starting to stink up. Things were getting personal. Everwhere I started to look there were real life accusations being made. Real hurtful insults being tossed around everywhere. Was this really the same game I started playing all those years back ? Were people really this passionate about a game that they had to be so vindictive and vicious towards each other on the forums. Propaganda was one thing but I was starting to feel hate tossed around.
I take a break for a while, still havent come back properly since November time but I kept reading the forums and tried to follow the politics which had become so enthralling to me.
Then I hear this news of some dodgy bpo goings on. Forums being hacked and real life details being posted on the internet. What the hell was going on ?!!
CCP stepped in and justice was dealt. The BPO has been removed and person in question punished. I thought this would be an end to it ?
Then I started reading through the forums some more. It was like trudging through mud. Calling for an employee to be sacked. Is the fact he has been removed from the game and punished in kind not enough ? Are people really so bitter and hate filled that they want real life, yes REAL LIFE out of game action and potential un-employment wished upon someone ? Half of this being called for a swathe of people who barely have their facts in order ? Had the forums I once enjoyed reading and following so much turned so twisted and bitter ? Why do I see people bandying the word 'N*zi' around as if it doesnt mean anything ? I read the alliance section and it had just degraded completely. Locked post after locked post and the ones that I could find were open had people talking about truly tragic events like the second world war and relating them to in-game actions. People insulting Poland, people insulting this and that country.
What had happened. I couldn't believe my eyes. Hate everywhere. Like an angry mob marching with torches, not even stopping to think. People tossing around accusations everywhere I look as if they are fact.
People need to stop and breathe for a moment and realise this is only a game. Justice has been served. The people found to be involved have been punished. But this doesnt seem to be enough for some people. One lousy bpo like that is a drop in the ocean. If it means anything to some people I have twice reprocessed all my belongings totalling prolly close to 10bil, so maybe that will go some way towards that bpo. In the grand scheme of things it means nothing, and this giant mob that has risen out of the ashes of this is turning into a bitter twisted monstrosity. I'm already surrounded by enough hate filled people and terrible goings on in the world every morning I turn on the TV or pick up a news paper.
Has the fun I once had all that time back in Rens really gone ? Has the friendly banter really been replaced by ignorant people who post without stepping back and thinking for a moment ?
Anaris, i feel you pain brother....but did you not stop and ask WHY all that vitriol and hate was being poured in BoB's direction? Some of it was probably jealously (like the way the USA is hated 'casue they are top dog...), but i'd say that more that a little of the flak you took was because of the actions of the alliance you belonged to. People don't hate each other for no reason....ist all about history in the end, and Bob's actions/history have left allot of annoyed EVE'ers out there, and now that BoB is perceived to be down, hell everybody is kicking you.
This Char is an Alt.
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NereSky
Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 12:58:00 -
[2149]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sral TBear
I just want justice, all under the same rules. You brake the rules you get punnished, not that brief excuses and etc will get you of the hook...just plain justice....
I agree. But let us not forget that there have been plenty of other cases where other alliances have been proven to cheat, and no action was taken.
Honestly I would like everyone who cheats to be dealt with appropriately, no matter what affiliation they serve - it just seems that people are calling most loudly for the banstick (some hypocritically) because BoB is involved.
My take on the Sir Molle thing (posting RL info on the forums) probably isn't a popular one, but I see it as a Forum issue and not a game issue, and so punishment should be applied accordingly - and maybe it already has.
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated. Just because some people in RKK may have known the identity of the Dev does not make them automatically guilty of being cheats also. Personally I wouldn't have imagined that a Dev would have cheated to obtain BPO's. If anything their Dev status would have made me more likely to believe that their stuff was legitimate, not less.
Still, there is little point in me speculating over the details of the whole issue, simply because I do not have the fact - only the same allegations you all have.
I am happy to be open and honest about how I see the situation, and how it affects me, and I am willing to respond to questions along those lines.
Don't think I have all the answers though, becuase I don't ... no matter how much I would wish otherwise.
problem that u guys have now is that all the allegations that have went on before , like the ability to shoot through pos shields, when Dread Guristas attacked the North whne they were attacking F-E ( memory is getting poor here , correct if im wrong) and a myriad of other poor chance/bugs bad luck that plague every alliance u fight against, now after all this u have cried lol tinfoil hattery and now a allegation has been proven after it was denied and other allegations remain unaddressed, BoB have always been recieving allegations of Dev involvement , noone else has . until very recently BoB have laughed it off, now im not saying every BoB member has had knowedge but the core of players has and its not hard to suspect that more has gone on than what has been admitted, BoB will never ever shake this unfortunatly and maybe the map would be somewhat differant now ie ASCN still there (as the loss of the titan was suspect and borderline)
then ofc u wonder how far this all go's mainly because nothing seems to have been done by CCP in this matter, no i believe the Dev shouldnt lose his job , but it deffinately calls for action, and if innocents myself included get purged to get rid of a cancer , i will wholeheartadly support it, The only people which have been proven as to have a direct gain from this is BoB noone else just u guys unfortunately. BoB will always be called BoD that i know is laughable but prob sooo close to the truth
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Plommon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:00:00 -
[2150]
Originally by: Avon STUFF...
Well Avon good post and all but I must say trying to pinpoint this to only involve the bpo's are the thing here.... I fully understand that CCP only act on evidence but serously do you acctlully belive that no one in whole of BOB didn't know about this, that t20 fooled each and everyone in BOB?
Do you acctully fully belive that t20 stopped at only seed the bpos to gain your alliance advantages? (yeah no matter if you have isk to buy them or if you feel they are "small" bpo you got them for free...)
The truth will never be there and it's easy to say go ahead and put this behind you when you are on the "right" side of this matter.....
I cannot understand why t20 should stopped only at the bpo's when he was already on that road of cheating and quiet frankly I don't give a cent for his so called confessions becuase he got caught, he didn't confess....
I don't belive that many will quit EVE because of this but the EVE is tainted and I'm not so sure that this will ever go away but I'm pretty sure that in less than a week the BOB forum brigade will flood the forums again with "Proof or STFU" and so on so things will go back to "normal"....
So all BOB friends and BOB alts can tell me to go back to my paranoid delusions and so but it's my 100% belief that there's more than the proof have shown in this mess...
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:02:00 -
[2151]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
Did I use the word "only", or are you trying to misrepresent my post in order to forward your own agenda?
As pointed out by a previous poster, a more accurate wording you could have used is:
"At the end of the day, one person in CCP was caught cheating."
I have no intention of misrepresenting your post, merely to remove any possible ambiguity from it. Your followup performs this nicely, and I tip my hat to you for publicly posting your point of view on this matter.
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Koloch
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:02:00 -
[2152]
It's a shame that the community has to suffer because of t20's actions. I'm still blown away that he would do such a thing. I don't know how long he's been at ccp, but surely he knew what he was doing something wrong. This incident will have such a huge impact on the game. Weither or not you believe BoB are cheaters it will always be a question in peoples minds. How can eve continue forward when the dominating alliance is percieved by most ingame to be 'getting help'...why would t20 help an alliance that apparently doesn't need any help.
Will BoB have to pay back the isk earned from the bpos? I understand that's a hard thing to calculate, but surely a figure can be estimated. Why hasn't a BoB leader responded saying they will give back X number of isk back in an effort to clear the slate?
Why weren't the employes of ccp that were in the major alliances monitored more closely. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if something went wrong here it would have a very negative effect on the game.
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Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:06:00 -
[2153]
Personaly i dont care about who and whats, for me it boils down to justice. I just dont like the fact that the way ccp habe handled this actualy makes it looks like a bump on the carpet. RAGOON was the first realy victims of lynch mobs, then privateers now its BOB`s turn and in 1-2 years its the next one. My problem is as a customer to ccp, not me and my corp vs BOB or RKK.....that we can do ingame with gunzz and not on the forum :)
I just want to feel that ccp is on the customors side, one way or the other. For me its about a feeling inside, about trust. Im also old enough to know that this stuff cant be sortet out in 1-2 days especialy over the weekend.......i hope the entire ccp staff is using this sunday with there famelys and is getting abit distance to al this so when they come to work tomorow they will have the energy to solve all this in a manner that is trustworthy....
All they have to do is to "bend the company rules abit" and just tell us what they have done and what actions they will take to prevent this with out putting it in a nice box with a red ban on top and serve it as a gift, just plain words to plain customors and they realy need to come with a statement about the K dude, again with no gift rabbing just plain words so all can se and unserstand how and why this situation have come to this. to be open and honnest is the only thing that will satisfy 95% of the readers on this topic :)
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 13:06:00 -
[2154]
Originally by: Anaris Big war with ASCN. This for me was the start of things turning sour. The forums were starting to stink up. Things were getting personal. Everwhere I started to look there were real life accusations being made. Real hurtful insults being tossed around everywhere. Was this really the same game I started playing all those years back ? Were people really this passionate about a game that they had to be so vindictive and vicious towards each other on the forums. Propaganda was one thing but I was starting to feel hate tossed around.
I take a break for a while, still havent come back properly since November time but I kept reading the forums and tried to follow the politics which had become so enthralling to me.
Then I hear this news of some dodgy bpo goings on. Forums being hacked and real life details being posted on the internet. What the hell was going on ?!!
CCP stepped in and justice was dealt. The BPO has been removed and person in question punished. I thought this would be an end to it ?
Then I started reading through the forums some more. It was like trudging through mud. Calling for an employee to be sacked. Is the fact he has been removed from the game and punished in kind not enough ? Are people really so bitter and hate filled that they want real life, yes REAL LIFE out of game action and potential un-employment wished upon someone ? Half of this being called for a swathe of people who barely have their facts in order ? Had the forums I once enjoyed reading and following so much turned so twisted and bitter ? Why do I see people bandying the word 'N*zi' around as if it doesnt mean anything ? I read the alliance section and it had just degraded completely. Locked post after locked post and the ones that I could find were open had people talking about truly tragic events like the second world war and relating them to in-game actions. People insulting Poland, people insulting this and that country.
What had happened. I couldn't believe my eyes. Hate everywhere. Like an angry mob marching with torches, not even stopping to think. People tossing around accusations everywhere I look as if they are fact.
People need to stop and breathe for a moment and realise this is only a game. Justice has been served. The people found to be involved have been punished. But this doesnt seem to be enough for some people. One lousy bpo like that is a drop in the ocean. If it means anything to some people I have twice reprocessed all my belongings totalling prolly close to 10bil, so maybe that will go some way towards that bpo. In the grand scheme of things it means nothing, and this giant mob that has risen out of the ashes of this is turning into a bitter twisted monstrosity. I'm already surrounded by enough hate filled people and terrible goings on in the world every morning I turn on the TV or pick up a news paper.
Has the fun I once had all that time back in Rens really gone ? Has the friendly banter really been replaced by ignorant people who post without stepping back and thinking for a moment ?
that was my post your refaring to with the ww2 and i think ..mabe.. just a little .. you missed the contexst Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Gabriel Magnar
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:06:00 -
[2155]
Yes, CCP's reputation is ruined. How do you think this makes people who do not know the game think about you? Whenever EVE is in the "general" news of gaming sites/blogs, it's about scam this, ISK seller that. Now they add dev misconduct and lying and cover-up to that list. At first I defended EVE (not CCP) on other sites, but since I learned the true extent of the situation I won't anymore. Why? Because the highest profile portion of this game is predicated on deceit and abuse.
T20 should have been fired on the spot. But then I guess he is too important for your zero-tolerance policy. "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others." comes to mind, how fitting indeed. I'm simply disgusted by CCP and by the manner they handled the entire situation.
To make matters worse, Kugutsman (sp?) remains banned, he only opened up the cesspool of developer and player misconduct while the ones that are really guilty of something go unpunished. Again with the Animal Farm...
The public response by CCP has been laughable, in fact I cannot have come up with a worse way to handle all of this, you have zero credibility left.
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:07:00 -
[2156]
You see the real question is this: BoB did not need those BPO's, and the community would never have know about them had it not been for some 'investigative journalism/hacking. So its obvious to ask 'what else did BoB garner from their relationship with CCP/DEV's that we don't know about?
This Char is an Alt.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:13:00 -
[2157]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/02/2007 13:09:30
Originally by: Anaris
Has the fun I once had all that time back in Rens really gone ? Has the friendly banter really been replaced by ignorant people who post without stepping back and thinking for a moment ?
Let me help you there:
Originally by: Avon
We have purposely fostered an image of being Eve's "bad guys", and it has worked well for us. We enjoy being the bad guys.
Also, I have nothing else to add to the topic, the flames are too high and the smoke too thick to get a clear view. There is a certain smell of CCP favourism in the air though. It has been there for a long time and it is getting stronger by the minute. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:14:00 -
[2158]
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic
You see the real question is this: BoB did not need those BPO's, and the community would never have know about them had it not been for some 'investigative journalism/hacking.
I prefer the more accurate terminology: failed blackmail attempts
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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killerco
Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:14:00 -
[2159]
Originally by: Anaris People need to stop and breathe for a moment and realise this is only a game.
QFT. Things on these forums have become too ******* personal(no matter which side you on).
Don't be a great man just be a man |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:20:00 -
[2160]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Avon At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
Unsupported assertion. Where's the proof that only one person in CCP cheated (including GMs and Devs)?
Did I use the word "only", or are you trying to misrepresent my post in order to forward your own agenda?
I don't know if other people in CCP have cheated. Maybe they have. Maybe that is how ASCN (who have been confirmed as having devs) got all those outposts, and the first Titan?
Point is, I don't care. So long as these things are uncovered and dealt with internally at CCP I don't feel the need to hear about it, in fact I'd rather not.
I'm not ready to give up on CCP yet.
I bolded the relevant part Avon. Because that is where you are wrong. If it hadn't been for Kugutsumen, this would never have come to light. Regardless of what you think of him and his methods, that you have to admit is true. CCP didn't find out on their own, and even when they found out, they didn't clean it up on their own.
If this whole affair had started with a post from CCP and T20 with a 'Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa', then you'd have a point. But it didn't. The community had to scream bloody murder all over the internet to get a feeble 'sorry'. And that doesn't bode well in terms of trusting it didn't happen on a larger scale, and more importantly, that it won't happen again.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:22:00 -
[2161]
You are wrong.
CCP did discover this themselves, and acted upon it. Maybe we aren't happy with their resolution, but it did happen.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:22:00 -
[2162]
Originally by: Avon When you register for the Morsus Mihi forum, did you use your real name or "Xthril Ranger"? If you used your character name, you are "pretexting" - pretending to be someone you are not.
My forum name is Xthril, my email account is my real one with my real name. Every eve related website I got an account with got my real name.
Originally by: Avon There is no difference between that, and you having a BoB alt and registering on their forums with that character.Both are perfectly legitimate uses of out-of-game resources, and both are done under an assumed identity.
I said that you and Bob found that acceptable. You are stupid if you think that havent hurt your reputation.
you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:24:00 -
[2163]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger Every eve related website I got an account with got my real name.
Rather you than me.
I never give out my real name over the internet, unless it is over a secure connection to someone I trust with those details.
You really should consider the same very basic levels of net-security imho.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:24:00 -
[2164]
Originally by: Anaris One lousy bpo like that is a drop in the ocean.
Irrelevant. If a policeman gave you a litter ticket for $10 for no better reason than he felt like it and could, do you think he'd deserve to keep his job? If a pilot had "just one little drink" and was caught, do you think he'd deserve to keep his job. If a bank clerk stole $10 from your account, would you think this didn't matter as you could always make more money?
With any position of trust and authority comes the risk of loss of that position if you abuse that trust and authority. It doesn't matter how big the abuse was, or even if it was in game or RL. He knew the rules; he knew the penalties; he broke the rules anyway and would now deserve the consequences.
Frankly though, t20's cheating doesn't worry me 1/10th as much as the cover-up we've seen and are seeing since. One rotten apple can happen. But when the whole company starts BSing us over it like we've seen ("oh, all the sharing of cyno accounts must have happened after he left") that is what needs to be fixed.
What I want from t20 is some believable explanation of why if he chose to cheat like that, why it was for such an odd mix of bpo's. And a total disclosure from t20 and CCP of everything else iffy that went on with devs in BoB or elsewhere - now - because if anything else comes out other than by CCP disclosure we will know for certain that we will never be able to trust them again. |
Sral TBear
letter of marque
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:27:00 -
[2165]
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic
You see the real question is this: BoB did not need those BPO's, and the community would never have know about them had it not been for some 'investigative journalism/hacking.
I prefer the more accurate terminology: failed blackmail attempts
Umm...you cant blackmail with information you don't have...therefor the original poster is correct.
have you been at K`s site?? think all proof of the blacmail can be found there :)
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:28:00 -
[2166]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sral TBear
I just want justice, all under the same rules. You brake the rules you get punnished, not that brief excuses and etc will get you of the hook...just plain justice....
I agree. But let us not forget that there have been plenty of other cases where other alliances have been proven to cheat, and no action was taken.
Honestly I would like everyone who cheats to be dealt with appropriately, no matter what affiliation they serve - it just seems that people are calling most loudly for the banstick (some hypocritically) because BoB is involved.
...snip...
Yes, there have been other instances with alliances being proven to cheat. And I do remember a distinctive outcry on that occasion. I even sent a direct Email to Kieron about that, so I did indeed care a lot about it.
But this is not about 'just another cheater'. Even if people cheat, there is a certain equality there in the sense that everybody can do the same cheats really. Sure BoB uses a shared cynonet, so does probably D2, RA and plenty of other alliances. Do I care? No, not really. Sure its against the EULA, but everyone can do it (no macros or hacks needed) and its not really a disruptive EULA violation in my eyes, just something to ease the logistics.
The difference here with the BPOs and the Dev involvement is that there was a cheat in a way only those with a connection to CCP could cheat. Noone else. How can I trust any petition against a BoB member is treated fairly now?
It has been proven that at least 1 person in CCP was willing to risk his job to cheat in favor of BoB. That puts a taint on everything BoB does, and every action any developer/CCP employee is taking in game. Like the GM spying on Goons in a polaris frigate. That is the result of all of this.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:30:00 -
[2167]
Originally by: Avon You are wrong.
CCP did discover this themselves, and acted upon it. Maybe we aren't happy with their resolution, but it did happen.
They didn't find out the BPOs were spawned, did they? If so, their behaviour is even more absurd and reprehensible.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:30:00 -
[2168]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Xthril Ranger Every eve related website I got an account with got my real name.
Rather you than me.
I never give out my real name over the internet, unless it is over a secure connection to someone I trust with those details.
You really should consider the same very basic levels of net-security imho.
whos wearing the tin foil hat now? dont give you name out the internetz will get you, apart from the fact your not alowed ot hand out rl info on the forum i wouldnt care less people knowing my name. how many people do you think over the world have names like jonn? smith? alex? james? ect Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Princess Ghost
WHITE LIGHT INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:30:00 -
[2169]
To Kieron
1) Under what circumstances is the use of the "dev commands" used to create the offensive BPO's permitted?
2) Are there any measures being put in place to monitor future use? Such as Logs created and monitored daily or command use being passworded individually to each user and 2 users needing to "sign off" the command.
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Tuco Santeriia
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:31:00 -
[2170]
I have played EVE for just over a year now. I believe in sending a message with my money when a service provider abuses my trust. As a result, I have canceled my subscription pending a dramatic turnaround in the way that CCP handles this scandal. Below is the message that I included in my cancellation notice:
******************************************************************
I now know that one and maybe more of the CCP developers were involved in actions that directly violated their rules. I also know that high-level CCP employees knew about the misconduct. And CCP confirmed this weekend that even though you had proof that it had happened, you bent your own unambiguous rules to permit a confirmed cheater to stay on your payroll.
The coverup has now far surpassed the crime in terms of the damage to EVE. And CCP has no one but itself to blame for this.
The best way to minimize damage would have been to be as consistent as CCP had been in the past when faced with misconduct. You KNEW what to do, you just didn't do it - what you should have done was follow your own rules. You should have immediately fired t20, destroyed all assets that entered the game through him, and banned all players who knew he was a dev and afterwards solicited or accepted his help.
Bending your own rules - and then covering it up - is what will cause the most damage here. CCP thought the problem would go away if you quashed the evidence and refused to talk about it, so instead of enacting the brutally disciplined response that made you famous, you bent the rules and tried to sweep the problem under the rug. Now that it is public knowledge, CCP has shattered its reputation and will never be able to get it back. Never.
To premeditate and orchestrate a coverup to hide your ethical mistakes shows a complete lack of integrity and a selfish disregard for others. This is especially so when a culprit confesses not on his own terms, but only when he has no other choice but to beg for mercy. Only when a hacker forced your hand did you confess to the wrongdoing û 6-8 months after the fact - and now your basic refrain is that so much time has passed that it's too late to investigate, and we should just move on.
Well whose fault is it that it's too late to investigate? Is it even true that it's really too late? And why has CCP immediately banned the whistleblower but not touched the players implicated in the wrongdoing? How can players trust CCP to police itself, or to police effectively, when the only police action has resulted from data obtained by an outside party rather than by CCP?
I have had fun in the year that I have played EVE. But I absolutely cannot and will not tolerate dishonesty in a game by its development team. If CCP does not take fast, decisive action to show that you are serious about eliminating corruption and consistently enforcing your own rules, then the current billing cycle is my last. I am sure that mine is not the only account teetering on the edge of the void at the moment.
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Jedek
Caldari Atomic Lobsters of Justice
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:32:00 -
[2171]
Guess I have to post this in here since I'm not allowed to post stuff that actually matters anywhere else:
Through all this BOB / CCP saga I have taken issue with one particular action of CCP, and the way it treats cases.
Posted - 2007.02.10 01:58:00 - [5]
Quote:Why haven't you banned <player> from <corporation> for taking/using the BPs?
We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
My issue lies with an incident with my friend and former corp mate Splagada. Months ago he did some hauling and trading with an individual that was found to be an illegal isk trader. Splagada had no knowledge of this but one day when he logged he was greeted by a -2.2 billion isk wallet. CCP invalidated all transactions he had done. So basically those that benefitted from the illegals BMS are cool but CCP will fry the smaller guys. What really gets me is he has petitioned this and gotten the run around, and when he finally resorted to posting about it in here he gets the "this isn't appropriate for the forums."
So basically CCP won't uniformly apply their own policies. Guys you can restore a lot of my faith by doing for Splagada what you did for the members that benefited from the bpos, refund him this money and try to apply all further incidents one way or another, but not both.
"What are you gonna do when the pengiun comes for you?!" |
Maximus barabus
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:33:00 -
[2172]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Avon You are wrong.
CCP did discover this themselves, and acted upon it. Maybe we aren't happy with their resolution, but it did happen.
They didn't find out the BPOs were spawned, did they? If so, their behaviour is even more absurd and reprehensible.
yes its been said from the begining that ccp knew about theillicitly gained bpos middle of last year but didnt remove them but punished (suposedly) t20
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:37:00 -
[2173]
Now we are back to the perceptions argument.
Everything a CCP volunteer or employee does now is under the perception they are cheating for the Corp/alliance/friends they play with on their regular characters. Everything BoB did before this broke is under the perception that they did it will Dev/GM/ISD Help. Other alliances are under the perception that the Dev/ISD/GMs that play in them go out of their way to help them. This is a direct consequence of CCPs inaction and closed way of dealing with the issues at hand.
T20's I got Caught Confession is directly responsible for the new perceptions as much as CCP is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up. They Reap what they Sow. Monday should be interesting if only for the Somewhat lame excuses Kieron can come up with as the PR Meatshield. One can only hope that CCP is spending the weekend attempting to bring this to a Serious conclusion instead of the smoke and mirrors that have already been played out the previous week.
Oh
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:40:00 -
[2174]
Originally by: Avon You are wrong.
CCP did discover this themselves, and acted upon it. Maybe we aren't happy with their resolution, but it did happen.
Avon, glad that senior BoB member is at least on the air and dealing with this.
But while CCP apparently did discover this incident themselves last summer, how can you say that they acted upon it? While they supposedly gave a slap on the wrist to the cheating dev, they did not remove the BPOs (!) and they did not announce the cheating to the players. They most emphatically DID NOT act on it until prodded by a third party.
CCP should be really ashamed that an alleged hacker now has more credibility than they do, because that is the case, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
The clincher for me was when they stated that T20, director of BoB's capital fleet, had no knowledge of account sharing. Frankly, I don't even care about the account sharing--it sounds very common for big alliances--but give me a break!
As someone who never had anything against BoB until this incident, I can tell you that I DO NOT think that BoB is what it is because of cheating--you sound like a bunch of talented dedicated players. But I have read the repeated righteous denials by your leaders that any devs were in BoB, and their outright mockery of any claims of dev favoritism, and that makes me mad.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:40:00 -
[2175]
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Lee Shogun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:41:00 -
[2176]
Originally by: Avon You are wrong.
CCP did discover this themselves, and acted upon it. Maybe we aren't happy with their resolution, but it did happen.
nope, here is were you are wrong!
CCP did discover about the BPO's that T20 have given, but the waited 7 monhts to take them out of game. Comes out handy for BoB to have all thoos T2 BPO's, right? |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:44:00 -
[2177]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar But I have read the repeated righteous denials by your leaders that any devs were in BoB, and their outright mockery of any claims of dev favoritism, and that makes me mad.
Well, not that it matters, but I have always stated that BoB probably had Devs in it, just the same as any other alliance (and I have always been of this opinion). However, if I knew someone was a Dev (which is not a postition I have ever been in), I would have to deny it anyway.
Oh, and I'm not a high-up in BoB I'm afraid, just a grunt. Well known from whoruming, and my career before joining BoB - now I am happy to just be a nobody.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:44:00 -
[2178]
Originally by: Avon
I agree. But let us not forget that there have been plenty of other cases where other alliances have been proven to cheat, and no action was taken.
Honestly I would like everyone who cheats to be dealt with appropriately, no matter what affiliation they serve - it just seems that people are calling most loudly for the banstick (some hypocritically) because BoB is involved.
Finger pointing other people for failing to report a $5 gift in their tax report while youre under investigation from IRS for multi-million dollar tax fraud will get you nowhere. Maybe a bit more lenient sentence but you still get to go to the big house for an extended period of time.
So what is no action was taken. Does that mean we all are free to spawn a few T2 BPOs for ourselves? Pack Passive targetters to ignore POS shields. NO. Of course NOT. There are a vast majority in EVE that are appaled by the actions of BOD and everoyone else that cheats for that matter. If no action was taken there still is time to take that action. EULA states that willingly and knowingly using exploits ( shooting through POS shield ) is an offense that will get the offender banned. May the people who frapsed the events bring the proof forth and CCP can ban the exploiters and get over this ordeal and get back to playing EVE.
About the hypocrite part you can look at yourself. BOD categorically denied and still denies every single accusation brought forth up until the point that accusation is supported by unrefutable proof. Be it server logs or fraps. You have lied for three years and now you are supposed to be coming clean and are completely thruthful with what is just another shade of the same color?
How stupid must one be absolutely certain that people registering to forums with a CCP email address, of all the email servers in the world, are not working for CCP themselves? You tell me because you claim that your forum admin(s) is(are) that(those) person. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Constantine Arcanum
IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:44:00 -
[2179]
that's disgusting
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:46:00 -
[2180]
vipeer, I assume you are directing your questions at BoB in general, even though you quoted me?
I'm afraid I can't help you with your specific concerns, sorry.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Blyra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:50:00 -
[2181]
To be completley honest. This is disgraceful. Completley disgraceful.
If an employee breaks the rules in ANY, absolutley ANY company, then they will be instantly fired, escorted to their desk to collect their belongings, and the escorted from the premises. And yet, CCP who have said they have done this in the past, this time they simply, didn't. You lose every ounce of trust, right there.
I hear all the time about selective punishments, and unfair punishments... People who are unintetionaly(sp?) affilated with an ISK seller, getting, often, game wrecking punsihments (huge debts), and yet, BoB members who clearly knew of the events that were happening, get away, completley scot free.
I like how we are told that t20 was punished before, and that now this has come up 8 months after, it is unfair to punish him again... But.... the original punishment occured when very few people knew of it... This time, everyone knows of it. In my opinion, he shouldn't be coming to work tommorow morning.
CCP, the eyes of this community are on you, right now, I have no intention to leave, but many do. If any more wrong doings are uncovered without you disclosing it first, expect thousands of people to leave.
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Conrad Rock
Fatalix Inc. Schism.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:53:00 -
[2182]
Players jumping on the great "injustice" whine-wagon should pause to think for a moment of the consequences if their demands were ever met.
I believe that severely punishing T20 would negatively affect the creativity and passion of the other devs for Eve. That would be murder for Eve. They gave us a great game and I for one am able to forgive one or even a dozen minor misconducts. I can safely say that if any of you were at T20Æs place, you would have done much worse.
What kungustmen and sirmolle did disgusts me a great deal more than if even all the allegations against T20 were true. Two permanbans required here in my humble opinion. Our private information should remain private, ITÆS JUST A GAME! People have died over WOW, and I think we should weed out those who are most likely to lead us into those situations as soon as they are discovered. (I donÆt know if there is any real evidence against sirmolle).
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:53:00 -
[2183]
What needs to happen is an in game statement from CCP's CEO, so that instead of crap about Mimatar terrorists and patch notes being posted, we get a full and frank explanation of CCP's actions. Lets them defend themselves and lets see if they have learned their lesson (i'm predicting they hav'ent).
This Char is an Alt.
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:56:00 -
[2184]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
/me ignores Avon, you're talking through your exhaust pipes again!
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems)
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Gelf
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:57:00 -
[2185]
It doesn't suprise me that we have not heard much from CCP about this at the moment. When allegations of fraud and the like start to be voiced the first thing I would have done is to seek legal advice. I am no expert on matters such as this but it would seem to be a logical step for CCP to take. They may even be advised to limit their responses so that they don't drop themselves further in the s***.
On top of that CCP need to collect more information and decide what course of action to take. Unfortunately this all takes time. I know that most of us would like a speedy conclusion to all of this, but given the scale of the situation it doesn't seem very likely.
That doesn't change the fact that there are some serious concerns here. The BPO's seem insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The things that bother me most are the position that was held by T20 within BoB's command structure, the encyclopaedic knowledge he would have possesed about all manner of ingame information and how it was used by him ingame, CCP's handling of the matter once it was discovered and the attempted coverup once it was in the public domain.
As for Kuug. The ends don't justify the means. If he is guilty of violating the EULA then there are consequences. Sorry Kuug, although I am glad that this information has come to light, the manner in which it was achieved does not sit well with me. This also goes for the other people involved in a EULA violation. The fact that not everyone has been treated in the same manner and the EULA being applied at will is a major hurdle for CCP to overcome. Favoritism does seem to have a hand in how it is applied.
I am willing to wait to see what happens over the next week or so, but I will be keeping a close eye on how this progresses. If I feel that not enough has been done then I shall cancel my accounts without hesitation. I only have 2 so it's not a great loss to CCP. But I believe that as consumers the only real power we have is how we spend our money and I refuse to give my money to someone who condones this kind of behaviour.
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:02:00 -
[2186]
Does anyone here watch the west wing?
Well in the final series, two candidates are running for president, nearing the end of the campaign there is leak a nuclear power plant, it is discovered that one of the candidates, many years early pushed for the plant to be opened as quickly as possible. A resulting storm of controvesy starts from the media and the public saying that he in some way caused the accident.
The candidate at the time does not deal with the situation and tries to let it die down by not answering questions on the subject. 2 weeks later nearing the very end of the campaign, the media are still talking about the power plant, finally enough is enough and he decides to go out and call a press conference infront of the plant.
He stands there for 3 hours answering every single question the reportes have, admitting his mistakes and what he would have done differently, eventually the reports have no more questions and being quite bored they, one by one, all walk off leaving him there by himself.
After that day there was not one more article about the power plant.
To summarise, peoples concerns and worries are fuelled by unanswered questions and conspiracy theories.
CPP get out in front of the power plant. It is better for all of us.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:03:00 -
[2187]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
we all read kug's forum.
/emote tinfoil hat engage!
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:06:00 -
[2188]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
we all read kug's forum.
/emote tinfoil hat engage!
I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
I'm not saying it is a justification, or that it would have been the right course to take. I think it is, however, more likely than the claims that they were left because CCP love BoB.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:09:00 -
[2189]
Edited by: Poolpy on 11/02/2007 14:06:27 Edited by: Poolpy on 11/02/2007 14:06:00
Originally by: Avon
I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
Like it's so difficult to a person to reclaim his ill gotten t2 bpo and leave the alliance?
(And trash all)
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Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:09:00 -
[2190]
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:11:00 -
[2191]
Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 14:07:29
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
One CCP employee CHEATED he happened to be a member of BoB.
Please realise this CCP Cheated..do you understand
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:12:00 -
[2192]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 11/02/2007 14:11:27 Edited by: Plutoinum on 11/02/2007 14:09:35
Originally by: Philounet
It was clearly showned in the evidence freely available over the net that the top management of BOB and RKK was involved in the cheat (if you are looking for this info, check up the name of the guy who was banned for being the wistleblower). ...
Those who have knowingly enjoyed the benefits of that dev ought to be permabanned (and not only 1 or 2 accounts, their IP is known to CCP)
If your read the Kogutsumen blog with the private messages between Dianabolic and others, after t20 was forced to leave RKK, then it looks like Dianabolic honestly didn't believe that the BPOs have been obtained illegally.
Quote:
From: Dianabolic To: Galavet Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:24 pm Subject: <xxxxx> <xxxxx> has been forced to leave RKK. An alt account petitioned him for being a dev, for cheating (by getting bpos thru the lottery, this is bollox btw, he has't cheated) and for ccp showing favouritism to BoB.
I have more details ofc, but that's the crux of it - we've lost a top pilot... but I've held on to his bpos They are still his, ofc... if he ever can come back.
There you have it. He thought the BPOs came from the lottery. ( I've replaced the player char with <xxxxx> here, don't know if he has been mentioned yet)
Well, about other devs in BoB. I don't remember at the moment that their identy was compromised or that they have done anything bad. Kogutsumen has found out their player chars, but I can't remember anything in his Blog that the leadership knew about them, especially not that they given BoB any advantage.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:12:00 -
[2193]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 11/02/2007 14:08:54
Quote: I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
they could have claimed he ilegally bought them with real world money, only your directors would have be any the wiser but acording to what was posted from your forum they already knew who he was and where they came from anyway
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:14:00 -
[2194]
Originally by: Avon I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
I'm not saying it is a justification, or that it would have been the right course to take. I think it is, however, more likely than the claims that they were left because CCP love BoB.
You are right there. If they let bob have the bpos because they like BoB they could as well let t20 keep his characters there. The omly reason rkk continued to have the BPOs is that deleting them would make rkk ask question about where they had gone. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:15:00 -
[2195]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 11/02/2007 14:08:54
Quote: I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
they could have claimed he ilegally bought them with real world money, only your directors would have be any the wiser but acording to what was posted from your forum they already knew who he was and where they came from anyway
It would seem that some people did know who he was, which is why CCP couldn't have said that he bought them with real-world money. They would be telling people that a Dev cheated.
As it was, CCP knew a Dev had cheated, and BoB didn't. (The "evidence" you keep refering to clearly states that RKK thought the BPOs were legitimate.)
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:21:00 -
[2196]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
we all read kug's forum.
/emote tinfoil hat engage!
I meant at the time it was uncovered by CCP. Would removing the BPOs not have uncovered Dev cheating? Maybe they were left in an attempt at damage limitation?
I'm not saying it is a justification, or that it would have been the right course to take. I think it is, however, more likely than the claims that they were left because CCP love BoB.
Turns out it was a horrible business decision either way, huh. Not saying they left it because they love BoB...my personal opinion is that someone in BoB knows information that will hurt CCP even more. I think the saying goes "let a sleeping dog lie" I personally think SirMolle has more for this conversation.
As for me CCP will have to try real fkn hard on monday to explain this, take decisive action that all paying customers can see,(not just the standard we don't have to explain ourselves to you stance) and formally APOLOGIZE to everyone. ( I don't count the weekend as they may be counting thier money....obviously the forum moderators are gone)
Anyway I am prepared to cancel my 4 accounts and move on if it doesn't. Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
SirMolle Posted - 2006.12.13 12:21:00 I dare you, post EVERYTHING. right now. Complete with wtfever you are accusing us of. And please by all means, BRING FACTS AND PROOF. Put up or shut up.
Why I'm responding to you? I hate liers and whiners. Simple as.
Tick Tock Molle....lol
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Trilliam Blackthorn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:22:00 -
[2197]
It gets worse....
Unfortunately, I've heard through a (reliable) online acquaintance that TWO major PC gaming magazines have now picked up on the story, one of which is going to turn it into a sizeable piece about the possibility for corruption in gaming - with EVE oline as it's "bad" example.
A shame it's gone this far. As the issues their working on now are for the april/may timeframe, I'm not sure when it will be out.
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Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:24:00 -
[2198]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MuthaTrucka ..is for not Removing the stupid BPOs until they got caught covering it up.
I have been thinking about this issue, because to be honest if baffled me at first.
However, how would CCP remove the BPO's without implying to RKK that a dev was a cheat?
Tricky.
Yeah, real tricky. I mean, we wouldn't want anybody knowing the TRUTH. _______________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristotle |
Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:24:00 -
[2199]
Originally by: Avon As it was, CCP knew a Dev had cheated, and BoB didn't. (The "evidence" you keep refering to clearly states that RKK thought the BPOs were legitimate.)
I agree with your quote, but that does not mean CCP should have left the BPOs there...they could simply have had T20 ask for them back, because in RKK's view they were still T20's BPOs. Or CCP could have instituted a policy that any T2 BPOs won by devs (legimately or not) were being yanked and reseeded. Or about fifty other things they could have done, but did not. I actually suspect laziness/incompetence on CCP's part rather than outright favoritism... -BoB Delenda Est- |
Sophia Germain
Gallente Fluxion
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:27:00 -
[2200]
Originally by: Trilliam Blackthorn It gets worse....
Unfortunately, I've heard through a (reliable) online acquaintance that TWO major PC gaming magazines have now picked up on the story, one of which is going to turn it into a sizeable piece about the possibility for corruption in gaming - with EVE oline as it's "bad" example.
A shame it's gone this far. As the issues their working on now are for the april/may timeframe, I'm not sure when it will be out.
It's only natural the press wants to write about this. Cheating has happened with games forever, but it's a rare occasion that it goes this deep into the "official" structure behind the game. I'd be very surprised if magazines and websites just turned a blind eye to what's happening in Eve now.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:27:00 -
[2201]
Originally by: Devie Viviem Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
If you think I am not upset you are very sorely mistaken.
However, I'm not going to go blaming people unless I feel certain that they have wronged me. I may be angry, but I'm not going to let it consume me.
Those who have put me in the position I find myself will discover exactly what I think about them. The people who were in the dark though, not matter how high up in BoB, have my support and sympathy.
Don't even try to make me turn on them, because it just lowers my opinion of you.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Counterparty
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:28:00 -
[2202]
Originally by: Lucre Irrelevant. If a policeman gave you a litter ticket for $10 for no better reason than he felt like it and could, do you think he'd deserve to keep his job?
With any position of trust and authority comes the risk of loss of that position if you abuse that trust and authority. It doesn't matter how big the abuse was, or even if it was in game or RL.
You are comparing this incident to breaking the law?!? Breaking company policy is not a felony or even a misdemeaner. All your analogies are actual crimes.
You want CCP to be your model of moral authority? Developers are writers, producers, artists and programmers.
The devs are not bishops or prophets or professional athletes.
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Akiri Kitami
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:31:00 -
[2203]
t20 had no problems in crying to the forums in December that he'd lost his in-game characters because his Dev identity had become known as linked to it. It would have been quite simple for him to also cry to his corp mates that he was leaving for the same reason - AND as a result also had to collect up his assets so that they also left the game with him.....company policy etc etc....
In other words, if the decision was that he could stay with CCP despite the unethical behaviour, then part of the punishment should have been making him also clean up the mess. There is absolutely no reason why those BPO needed to be left in the game. If CCP was choosing the 'keep it quiet, sweep everything under the rug' approach, the BPO's could and should have been removed by t20 himself. |
Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:32:00 -
[2204]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Devie Viviem Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
If you think I am not upset you are very sorely mistaken.
However, I'm not going to go blaming people unless I feel certain that they have wronged me. I may be angry, but I'm not going to let it consume me.
Those who have put me in the position I find myself will discover exactly what I think about them. The people who were in the dark though, not matter how high up in BoB, have my support and sympathy.
Don't even try to make me turn on them, because it just lowers my opinion of you.
Not trying to make anyone turn on anyone....i'm severely ****ed...and i'm not in the alliance. The alliance did however take something from me and my corpies...and now i find out there is a very strong possibility thatthey had insider help for whatever reason. Restitution should be made whatever it may be.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:32:00 -
[2205]
Originally by: Counterparty The devs are not bishops or prophets or professional athletes.
In the Eve-galaxy they are you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:35:00 -
[2206]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 14:07:29
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
One CCP employee CHEATED he happened to be a member of BoB.
Please realise this CCP Cheated..do you understand
Yes I do.
I am willing to conceed that BoB and CCP cheated at game play. I am also willing to conceed that one party might have unknowingly cheated, but i do not accept ignorance as a defense.
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
VunnaX
Golden Fury Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:36:00 -
[2207]
Originally by: VunnaX If someone in my corp says he is a dev and hand me some bpo or hand it to my ceo, who then give me hac or something for like 30-40 mils, I would not say anything. You all wanna says you would qoit that corp and yell around about it? Or you all would accept those cool stuff for free and stfu about it?
No one answered to my question, prolly cause we all know the answer... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:39:00 -
[2208]
Originally by: Heritor
Yes I do.
I am willing to conceed that BoB and CCP cheated at game play. I am also willing to conceed that one party might have unknowingly cheated, but i do not accept ignorance as a defense.
So, you would have no problem with an alt scamming ISK for a fake GTC, sending you the ISK, and you getting banned for it? Just because you didn't know doesn't mean you are innocent, does it?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:41:00 -
[2209]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Devie Viviem Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
If you think I am not upset you are very sorely mistaken.
However, I'm not going to go blaming people unless I feel certain that they have wronged me. I may be angry, but I'm not going to let it consume me.
Those who have put me in the position I find myself will discover exactly what I think about them. The people who were in the dark though, not matter how high up in BoB, have my support and sympathy.
Don't even try to make me turn on them, because it just lowers my opinion of you.
I don't give a **** about your opinion of me.
My friends are leaving the game over this, so any sympathy from me is long gone. And I will say it again, BoB has brought this on themselves with their constant attitude problem and belittling anyone who said CCP was in bed with BoB. Don't you think you owe these people an apology?
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
fischsemmel
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:43:00 -
[2210]
Frankly, I am not nearly satisfied with this state of affairs.
To quote T20's blog, the one thing (of the three he listed) that he did wrong was... "Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players."
How? This is not even CLOSE to enough information. For all the playerbase knows, CCP gave all the devs a toolset with which to play God in Eve. Even if this is not the case, however, the fact that T20 was able to "help himself acquire goods" illegally suggests that it was not something incredibly difficult to accomplish and that other devs may well have done things such as this.
CCP totes Eve as a game where the players control and build the entire game. I cannot justify paying to play this game when its developers are engaged in this most vicious hypocrisy.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:44:00 -
[2211]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Devie Viviem Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
If you think I am not upset you are very sorely mistaken.
However, I'm not going to go blaming people unless I feel certain that they have wronged me. I may be angry, but I'm not going to let it consume me.
Those who have put me in the position I find myself will discover exactly what I think about them. The people who were in the dark though, not matter how high up in BoB, have my support and sympathy.
Don't even try to make me turn on them, because it just lowers my opinion of you.
I don't give a **** about your opinion of me.
My friends are leaving the game over this, so any sympathy from me is long gone. And I will say it again, BoB has brought this on themselves with their constant attitude problem and belittling anyone who said CCP was in bed with BoB. Don't you think you owe these people an apology?
Honestly? No.
I don't personally owe anyone an apology.
What exactly is it that you think *I* should be sorry for?
I think you are projecting your anger on to me, rather than targeting at those more deserving .. exactly what I am avoiding doing.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Victor Merren
The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:45:00 -
[2212]
I have read only a few pages of this thread (there are 78 pages by now!)so I sincerely apologise if this has been raised and answered in a satisfactory manner prior to my post.
Information sharing.
Here is a basic train of thought:
Devs play Eve to experience their product. This enables them to improve their product. Devs know A LOT about Eve. Some Devs that are in charge of lets say POS mechanics would know EVERYTHING about POS mechanics in Eve. Lets assume that these Devs have been playing Eve for several years. They are therefore valued senior members of the corporation and alliance. They would therefore be listened to if they provided information (assuming that the corp/alliance leadership did not already know that these players were in fact Devs).
So, back to this POS Dev. He would know exactly which aspects of POS he coded well and which need tuning - ie. what can be seemingly exploited due to malfunctioning code (undocumented feature). The Dev in question would not really mind providing this information because it is gives him a warm and fuzzy feeling when he provides amazingly insightful information, and because it gives him a chance to fine tune his code on TQ.
Unfortunately, the Dev would provide this extremely insightful information only to his corpmates/allies, because he is also in a corp and they are his mates - in Eve, and possibly also in RL.
The above is just the POS example, but it could be applied to any other Eve situation.
Thus, the structural reform or explanation that is still (possibly) outstanding from CCP is how do they maintain and audit or monitor the "Chinese Wall" between the developers and the player community they participate in?
("Chinese wall" concept for those that are not familiar, is the concept that for example allows consulting firms and diversified financial institutions to operate without breaching various probity and competition laws. It means, for example, that if an accounting arm of a business knows that their business client is about to go bust, they are still not allowed to tell their business consulting arm of the company about a possible restructuring opportunity or a bankruptcy sell-off.)
Another series of questions are therefore also raised: to what extent can the developers participate in Eve? Can they be allowed to freely participate in all aspects of gameplay? Would their intimate knowledge of and closeness to Eve offer unfair advantage to any corporation/alliance they are members of? Can the Devs be relied upon not to share the knowledge that only the developers would have - would the Devs even recognize which aspects of the game are known only to them?
I sincerely hope that the Developers are allowed to fully participate in Eve. I hope that CCP finds a way to enable this to happen without tainting the Developer involvement in TQ Eve with ongoing probity issues.
I also hope that CCP realises that punishment is not a deterrent and that their Internal Affairs unit needs to be balanced by enhanced Community Liaison unit that will proactively discuss/advise any issues within Eve - perhaps via Eve mail to all CAOD leaders/directors and relevant forums.
Additionally, perhaps the developer count should be kept to a quota per each alliance. Understandably they may have strong game and RL relationships with their existing corps, however they are CCP employees and this is after all their job.
Cheers,
V.
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:45:00 -
[2213]
Originally by: Counterparty The devs are not bishops or prophets or professional athletes.
So they don't have to have integrity? Because that is I think Lucre is trying to point out. If anyone ABUSES the power that they got when they accepted a certain position, would that be ok in a game opposed to reallive?
I used to work at a bank, would it be ok for me to "spawn" cash in my account? Because that wouldn't be "real" money? --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Katia Tae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:48:00 -
[2214]
Bottom line to this whole thread . . . devs should not be allowed to play in game anonymously. Nor should they be allowed in player (paying customers) corps or alliances.
If CCP can't see what a big conflict of interest this is from this thread, you are blind and a fool.
Your attitude of "devs WILL continue to play" needs to be re-visited. Otherwise, the playbase is nothing more than pawns in the great chess game of Eve being manipulated as the gods see fit for fun.
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Maj Woodcock
Minmatar United Space Aillance USA
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:51:00 -
[2215]
Edited by: Maj Woodcock on 11/02/2007 14:51:54 80 pages...WOW. This had hit every important web site and shows CCP is not / has not handled this is good as they could of. My own personnal though is that BOB knew, at least one or two of the commanders did. No proof, just a personnal feeling. But without proof, no one can do anything. I don't believe T20 or CCP on what T2 BPOs were stolen. The ones they said are not that improtant enought to lose a job over. So which HAC BPO was in the mix?? Anybody check the loot tables for the RATS in T20s operation area? Are they same as every where esle?? There is a lot more to this then we are being told. But at least thyey told us something. time to put this to bed and move on. Bet this thread is locked by the DT.
T20 needs to change his name because I will never trust anything he says in the fourms.
PROMISES MADE > PROMISES KEPT |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:51:00 -
[2216]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Devie Viviem Pity you aren't as upset over this as it was your alliance directors that were lying to you and your fellow corpies.
If you think I am not upset you are very sorely mistaken.
However, I'm not going to go blaming people unless I feel certain that they have wronged me. I may be angry, but I'm not going to let it consume me.
Those who have put me in the position I find myself will discover exactly what I think about them. The people who were in the dark though, not matter how high up in BoB, have my support and sympathy.
Don't even try to make me turn on them, because it just lowers my opinion of you.
I don't give a **** about your opinion of me.
My friends are leaving the game over this, so any sympathy from me is long gone. And I will say it again, BoB has brought this on themselves with their constant attitude problem and belittling anyone who said CCP was in bed with BoB. Don't you think you owe these people an apology?
Honestly? No.
I don't personally owe anyone an apology.
What exactly is it that you think *I* should be sorry for?
I think you are projecting your anger on to me, rather than targeting at those more deserving .. exactly what I am avoiding doing.
You should be sorry for calling people idiots and stupid remarks about tinfoil hats whenever someone brought up BoB and CCP being in bed together. Because lets face it, it turned out the they were right.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Fitz Regal
Invictus Unbowed
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:51:00 -
[2217]
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
Do you seriously believe this? One BoB members who is also a ccp employee ADMITED to cheating. Do you se the difference here? DO you really think this was the total extent of the advantages achieved?
gg ccp.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:54:00 -
[2218]
Originally by: Running Mann Edited by: Running Mann on 11/02/2007 04:06:07 I am confused, this keeps going from 70 and 71 pages down to 69 as I read on. Are posts being deleted as fast as they are made?
There's a glitch with the forums and sometimes it doesn't list all the last few pages in a long thread, they still exist though (although if there's outright flaming and hate speech getting deleted that'd do it too).
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Abe SE
Front Line Assembly
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:55:00 -
[2219]
There! The subject at hand has been grinded, discussed, trolled and whined about.. It's all over and done with! So, would all the whining emo's please stop playing EvE and stop polluting the forums. Go sit in your moms closet and cry for a few days instead. |
Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:55:00 -
[2220]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor
Yes I do.
I am willing to conceed that BoB and CCP cheated at game play. I am also willing to conceed that one party might have unknowingly cheated, but i do not accept ignorance as a defense.
So, you would have no problem with an alt scamming ISK for a fake GTC, sending you the ISK, and you getting banned for it? Just because you didn't know doesn't mean you are innocent, does it?
I understand that this account with my characters is my sole responsibilty, any action which I allow to happen with or without my knowledge will be my responsibilty.
If I was not to check my wallet to see if somebody had tried this diabolical example you have provided, yes, unfortunately I well be guilty of ignorance and open to punishment. Otherwise a scammer might try it and plead ignorance to advoid punishment.
I am responsible it is up tome to keep my account clean and monitored.
I applaud your stance to try and defend allaince honour, but it is misplaced.
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
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Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:56:00 -
[2221]
Originally by: VunnaX
Originally by: VunnaX If someone in my corp says he is a dev and hand me some bpo or hand it to my ceo, who then give me hac or something for like 30-40 mils, I would not say anything. You all wanna says you would qoit that corp and yell around about it? Or you all would accept those cool stuff for free and stfu about it?
No one answered to my question, prolly cause we all know the answer...
If it didn't feel legit, I'd apply as much peer pressure as I could bring to bear for us to destroy it. And if that didn't work, you can bet your ass they wouldn't be able to shut me up.
Of course, I'm not what I consider "average" in my moral stance... and I feel it's unfortunate. I conceed that most would do what you imply. Past tense, in the case of BoB. _______________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristotle |
Antiope
Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:57:00 -
[2222]
there have always been rumors about cheating in BOD when something strange happened, might have been DEV's might just unlucky moments, but now all those strange occurances will be directed to the DEV's in BOD. The leaders and admins of the BOB and RKK forums lost my respect whatever happens in the future.
What realy ****es me off is CCP unveiling like 5 % of what realy happened and hoppes the community stops asking questions.
Now a good question, DŠ is waiting for their alliance logo since it's creation patch after patch, the file got sent to CCP 10 billion of times, oh wait look whos responsible for allaince logos. It's not about T2 BPO's beeing cheated, it's about being biased in my opinion, oh yeah we can't prove anything, maybe all our sent files were corrupted, lol.
You can't repair thrust when CCP's employees sink that deep, cheating aside but being biased is the worst thing as a DEV
Oh wait we can't prove anything, so I better shut up
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D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:59:00 -
[2223]
Originally by: Goran (snip) The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
The sad part is how true this is..... of course now that we know CCP are a bunch of cheating *****es we can cancel our accounts can't we? ----------------- Read This |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:00:00 -
[2224]
Originally by: Antiope
Now a good question, DŠ is waiting for their alliance logo since it's creation patch after patch, the file got sent to CCP 10 billion of times, oh wait look whos responsible for allaince logos.
lol.
Serious?
If CCP were that biased they would have let us use our original Alliance logo design. They didn't.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:02:00 -
[2225]
Originally by: Heritor stuff
Okay. Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.
You get banned.
Fair?
Happy with that?
Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:08:00 -
[2226]
Originally by: MrDisposable Has it been proven that he resides in a country where what he did was a crime?
You are accountable in the country your crime takes place in as well, so it wouldn't matter. If he lives in a non-extraditing country, then it won't matter.
However You'll find that information made public only because it didn't work when used to attempt blackmail, and obtained illegally, will be thrown out of most court rooms, and that person's testimony stricken from the record.
It doesn't matter if something is legal or not for it to violate the EULA, the EULA is a separate contract and breaking the EULA, is breaking the EULA, and CCP are more than allowed to remove you from their game for doing so, regardless of your local laws.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:11:00 -
[2227]
Edited by: Heritor on 11/02/2007 15:08:52
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor stuff
Okay. Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.
You get banned.
Fair?
Happy with that?
Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?
No not at all fair, as the market would be the third party and the ignorance would be the market due not having control of who buys what.
I do not wish to harp on as this thread is far more important so i will try and keep it brief.
If my char was to sell an item by dirtect trading for a fair price I am not ignorant of anything. If accepted a large amount of isk for a low cost module, then I may well be punished for accepting dirty isk. as I would be ignoring the signs of possible foul play.
Example: Tech2 BPOs for nothing is possibly dodgy
I will not reply to anything else so as not to de-rail thisa thread into our personal differences of interpretation
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:14:00 -
[2228]
Originally by: Nim9i5 BoB is in violation of EULA.. they cheated.. how hard is that to understand?
By your logic, Goonswarm and RA/aAa are a violation of the EULA, the difference being the latter groups had much more widespread knowledge of their actions.
I'm curious who your main is, because you're joining the crowd of people BoB has beaten, in wanting BoB, and only BoB punished for t20's actions. As interesting as it'd be to see BoB, Goon, RA, and other alliances vanish for the actions of only a few members, it's not going to happen.
You only want such heavy action because it's BoB, nothing more.
That said, I'm all for banning every last member of BoB who violated the EULA. I'm also for banning every member of Goonswarm who used their clinet hack, and every member of the various groups which farmed the quite obviously bugged Angel complexes to the tune of trillions of ISK.
You think t20's ammo BPOs did some damage? Imagine the damage someone could do with a trillion ISK to purchase BPOs and POSes. His being a dev makes his much worse than if a normal player had done it, but compared to other things, the in-game impact is nothing. The loss of trust for many players is what makes this huge.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Damon Ra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:14:00 -
[2229]
So why *exactly* wasn't t20 sacked for this? Oh right, CCP was understaffed due to vacations when this was exposed. How very inconvenient.
If I cheated and got caught it would result in a perma-ban, regardless of how long I had pre-paid my account for, or how "sorry" or "ignorant" I may claim to be.
Plain and simple, someone in a position of power and trust at CCP abused both. Once again this is publicly admitted by CCP only after the community is in an uproar.
I would personally like to see CCP adopt and stand by a NO TOLERANCE policy (in re: to employment, you cheat you get sacked) in light of the fact that within 1 year, at least 2 cases of CCP employee misconduct (that I know of) have been exposed. Strangely, In the first case the player who initially exposed the misdeeds got banned.
If CCP really wants to rebuild faith and trust in the player community they need to start taking ACTION and not just try to smooth things over with hollow words.
FYI, CCP you wouldn't need your own messy and complicated version of "Internal Affairs", if everyone working there was simply made aware that the penalty for anyone caught cheating was instant termination of employment.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:15:00 -
[2230]
Originally by: Morgain dVher Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:12:03 Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:11:02 Despite Mayas protestations, Tanis brings out a bigger issue than anything else that has been posted here. The merger between CCP and White Wolf was going on during this time. If CCP knew about this and didn't disclose it, it could be considered anything from a breach of reps and warranties to fraud.
I wonder if/when White Wolf will learn of this thread?
This is assuming White Wolf didn't hear about the incident and the actions taken at the time. If they did, then that's the end of it.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:17:00 -
[2231]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor stuff
Okay. Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.
You get banned.
Fair?
Happy with that?
Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?
Accutally that is the way that works. Even in other games when someone gives out bought Gold/credits for free what happens. Usually a lot of the people who thought it was charity get banned. It happens in a lot of games. Same thing in real life, you buy a stolen good, use a stolen good, or get a stolen good even if you did not know it was stealing you could be held accountable for the theft. So all these T2 BPOs were given to you, did you not use them, keep them hidden, did not gain any benefit from them. Granted the moral thing to do is to remove the 'dirty isk' but rarly is the technology set up for that. Like people have been saying it is a game, you can always get another account and start over.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:18:00 -
[2232]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 15:16:26 Morgain dVher, what I actually said on that subject was "Very Likely". Agreeing, y'know. On the reasons, the consequences I'd not comment on.
umop 3pisdn, G later become *D2*. Get your tinfoil hat straight, ffs.
Heritor, strangely enough...that is NOT what the EULA says. Try again. Nighlighted, not true. You forfit the items. You are only guilty of a crime if you knew they were stolen. Beyond reasonable doubt.
Avon, or the origional alliance name? Everyone seems to forget that one.
Malthros Zenobia, I'd forgotton the complex thing. Oh yes, THAT needs action as well for even handedness.
//Maya |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:19:00 -
[2233]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Gaius Octavius I was a serious hardcore EVE player since 1994,
Whoa! Youve been playing eve since before they started coding it! How many SP do you have?
Alt of Salvador Sarpati!
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:23:00 -
[2234]
One random thought:
There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 -
[2235]
Originally by: Avon vipeer, I assume you are directing your questions at BoB in general, even though you quoted me?
I'm afraid I can't help you with your specific concerns, sorry.
Yet you run the so called "damage control" for your alliance. Why is that, if you have no clue of what you are talking about? Would it just be an attempt to avoid an argument? Maybe. Only you know that. Besides, i am not accusing all the members of BOD. Some are bound to be in the dark about all the stunts you guys and girls pulled. I feel sorry for them because all they achieved or helped achieve could in fact be a handout from CCP in one way or another. Ignorance is bliss but when you get a reality check it's that much more stressing.
If you don't have the answer then please ask the forum admin who accepted the registration of a player with a CCP mail address as a commander of a capital fleet that has been so effectively run under his command.
Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Gwen
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 -
[2236]
Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
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Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 -
[2237]
Edited by: Heritor on 11/02/2007 15:24:48
Originally by: Maya Rkell [
Heritor, strangely enough...that is NOT what the EULA says. Try again.
I am not quoting the EULA, I am stating a point in an earlier post that BoB had cheated because a BoB member had supplied Tech2 BPOs that had been sourced through dubious means
Unfortunately the BoB member was a CCP Employee
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Executor Shiro
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:28:00 -
[2238]
Edited by: Executor Shiro on 11/02/2007 15:26:52
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor stuff
Okay. Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.
You get banned.
Fair?
Happy with that?
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
So yes, lets take your position; and ban all the BoB leaders who knew. It would be easy to do; CCP just has to ask T20 who in BoB knew. So what if your alliance crumbles; cheaters don't deserve to play.
Hell, you guys STILL cheat; when are your BoB-CynoNet abusers going to be banned?
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Gibmundur
Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:29:00 -
[2239]
and people wonder why bob treat t2 ships like t1 ships.
I find it unlikely that someone wo so blatently cheats like t20 has will not have used his power for further cheating! He was forced to confess after someone ratted him out in bob
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 -
[2240]
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered but kept in game?
Why isn't Sir Molle banned when he directly violated the EULA by posting RL info about a player?
Why are devs allowed to be in director positions in major alliances?
Why is CCP trying to keep everything secrect?
Be honest, be transparent. EVE is a wonderful game, the player community is great and just loves this game (why else then so many posts?).
Please make a list with devs, GMs, Event managers. The list should contain the responsibilites of the people, their area of work and if their chars are in an alliance and if yes, in which one.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 -
[2241]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Avon, or the origional alliance name? Everyone seems to forget that one.
The logo, not the original name. Then again, good point. If CCP was in bed with BoB, we wouldn't be BoB, would we? We would still have that rather amusing name.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 -
[2242]
Heritor, I don't care what you "think". The EULA is quite clear.
Executor Shiro, no it hasn't. The evidence even the hacker has produced shows absolutely nothing of the sort. If you can't even be bothered to read it...
//Maya |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:32:00 -
[2243]
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:34:00 -
[2244]
Originally by: vipeer
Yet you run the so called "damage control" for your alliance. Why is that, if you have no clue of what you are talking about? Would it just be an attempt to avoid an argument?
Or could it be that I am just putting forward my views?
I'm not running damage limitation for my alliance, I'm not in a position to do so.
Like I said, I can only give my perspective, but I am willing to do so. Your hostility towards me is misplaced, and does nothing to encourage me to risk my position in my alliance to continue discussing this.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:36:00 -
[2245]
Originally by: Borderjumper In real life lieing, cheating and stealing come with penalts, and sometimes you have to pay for your mistakes more then once. I would like to think the same thing holds true in a fantasy.
Double Jeopardy laws prevent multiple punishments for the same crime, actually. t20 may have had his pay cut in half, he may have been demoted, and other things may have happened to him, CCP will not, and cannot tell us without opening a larger can of worms. We may not like it, we may not want to accept it, but we don't have a choice in that matter. Your choice is to either play, or not play. If someone were to cheat, and get banned, and CCP released details about it (thus violating their rules), there could be hell to pay for it.
People don't realize that CCP doesn't disclose details on punishments, ever, and the players expect more info because it's a dev, and don't seem to give a damn about CCP's rules regarding punishments. People are calling for BoB members to be banned, for all we know, they may very well have been, although iirc, posting personal info on the forums results in forum bans, not game bans. There is a difference for CCP in terms of a person (SM) posting Kugu's personal info on the forums (which iirc he went back and removed himself didn't he?), and Kugu breaking into private messages, finding info, and trying to blackmail several parties with it. Anyone who allows such a person to continue playing their games are out of their minds. Kugu is a lucky, lucky man if he's in Taiwan or Indonesia, where they won't extradite him to Iceland, the UK, or the US where he'd be looking at a several decade jail sentence, and the loss of every single thing he owns due to the damage he's done to CCP by releasing private info.
Yes, I said private. I can think of several people who got fired for negligence at a job I used to work at, and we handled important personal info (pretty much everything except CC info). When those people were fired, the customers were not told. They didn't HAVE to be told. There are no laws that order companies to disclose the actions of their employees. CCP could have very well come out and stated that Kugu was talking about a resolved situation, and fabricated other info, and destroyed his credibility (not hard given the guy's history), but they didn't, and now they'll probably suffer for it, and it shows why many companies don't do what CCP has done. Customers are ungrateful. If t20 were drawn and quartered on EVEtv, and everyone who was ever a member of BoB banned forever, this mob would still cry for more blood, and those that actually will quit, would quit.
Originally by: MrDisposable You know whats funny? Can anyone really say "Go play WoW" smugly anymore?
Considering that the nature of the two games hasn't changed (that being EVE is harsh, and WoW is a very, very easy and catering game), I'd say yes. EVE and WoW are not the same.
And you're a fool if you think WoW's employees are pure and innocent.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:36:00 -
[2246]
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
you fail to read. it speaks in their favor that they did not do that.
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Gwen
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:40:00 -
[2247]
Originally by: Xenofur
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
you fail to read. it speaks in their favor that they did not do that.
maybe you should read it again...seriously...your suggesting changing his dev name....
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Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:40:00 -
[2248]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
How was this established? Did they kick the DEV out when they found out. Is there a station somewhere where all these T2 stuff are? Is your allience prepaired to apologize to the members of ASCN, Goonswarm, and all the others you attacked while this is going on?
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Lunas Feelgood
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:42:00 -
[2249]
Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 11/02/2007 15:38:33
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
Avon I actually got some polite and respectfull quistion to you as a senior member of BOB.. And i hope you will ansvar them
1. Did you know or any1 els in you corp knew there was senior devs in RKK?..
2. Do you know about Cynonet and do you know of any1 in you corp have participated in cynonet account sharing?
3. how has this hole scandal effected BNC leadership..
4. Do you agree that posting RL infomation ingame or on these forum board is a banneble offence??.
5. When this hole scandal was made public how did you react personally?
Hope you will take you time to adress those quistions..
Regards lunas
LV Spin: For every system you take we will only get stronger
BOB spin: We didnt do it. We are innocent.. Btw any one got an icelandic dictonary?, I cant understand a frikcing word on Teamspeak |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:43:00 -
[2250]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the only right course of action now is to stop trying to cover this up. Stop your damage control, and come clean. Give us the bloody truth. The whole truth, nothing but etc etc.
Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Heritor
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:43:00 -
[2251]
Edited by: Heritor on 11/02/2007 15:41:00
Originally by: Maya Rkell Heritor, I don't care what you "think". The EULA is quite clear.
I totally agree, tell everybody how you feel about cheating and the way CCP has handled the affair in respect to its customer base. This is what we all want to hear including CCP.
We can offer guidance through letting them know how we feel about the way the game is run.
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Removal Tool
Flashman Services Veni Vidi Vici .
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:44:00 -
[2252]
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/blacklabelsar/BoSSiggyFinal.jpg Signature dimensions exceeds max 400x120 dimensions allowed. Mail us if you have any questions -Eldo Fight with your heart and balls! |
Executor Shiro
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:45:00 -
[2253]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
Wow, you replied to one comment in my post; but not a word about the BoB CynoNET cheating.
Good job there.
So since you failed to answer to me, I will repeat:
Why have the BoB accounts involved in the BoB Cap Ship CynoNET not been banned?
CCP knew about them; and the shared use of them clearly violated the rules in the EULA.
Sounds like BoB is the favor'd child.
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Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:47:00 -
[2254]
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
you fail to read. it speaks in their favor that they did not do that.
maybe you should read it again...seriously...your suggesting changing his dev name....
of course i am. when brainless idiots like you cut out parts of the post. Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
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Gyny
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:51:00 -
[2255]
Edited by: Gyny on 11/02/2007 15:48:20
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
Wow, you replied to one comment in my post; but not a word about the BoB CynoNET cheating.
Good job there.
So since you failed to answer to me, I will repeat:
Why have the BoB accounts involved in the BoB Cap Ship CynoNET not been banned?
CCP knew about them; and the shared use of them clearly violated the rules in the EULA.
Sounds like BoB is the favor'd child.
Well said,
Until CCP bans EVERY BoB cap ship account involved in the BoB Cyno-NET, which sounds like almost all BoB cap ship pilots;
Then this problem will not be resolved.
Too bad for BoB; but they broke the rules in the EULA about account sharing.
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Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:52:00 -
[2256]
Originally by: Avon
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
I can trust CCP, I'm sure that a lot of us do. The problem is you really can't say BOB did not gain anything from this. And most people are calling for blood. This is about closure of the issue. You really can not expect anyone to believe that CCP is only going to punish a DEV for cheating. They have punished alliences before (ie, RA being told to stop exploiting complexes). Granted that is second hand information and I can't back it up, but CCP will take action. You can spin this all you want, you have to convince CCP.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:54:00 -
[2257]
Originally by: Avon Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
Well, i havent lost my trust in CCP just yet. Im giving them untill after the weekend, they can only work 40hrs a week like the rest of us. However, if this is all there is to it, then no, thats not enough.
Kieron is failing to adress alot of important issues here. Why was T20 not fired on the spot? In what way was it dealt with? Why were the T2 BPOs not removed from game the INSTANT this was discovered. Why was the community not notified of this when it was discovered?
Everything about this reeks of a cover up. A cover up in June, and noone wouldve known about a cheating developer, if all went according to CCPs plans. Now, some hacking moron forced their hand, and they still try to salvage what they can of the old cover up.
Don't get me wrong, im not calling for some witch hunt or whatever. I was quite fond of T20 myself, actually. And tbh, being the addict that i am, i wont even quit over this, as annoying as i find it. Although, i reckon BoB must be more annoyed over this.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:55:00 -
[2258]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the only right course of action now is to stop trying to cover this up. Stop your damage control, and come clean. Give us the bloody truth. The whole truth, nothing but etc etc.
Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
CCPs efforts don't seem sincere. Seeing as how this all came to light, and how hard it has been to pry any information out of them, people just don't believe CCP anymore. CCP needs to come up with something more to regain at least a bit of trust, or they will need to live with the fact that a significant number of people dont trust them. And live with the fact that there will be continuous negative publicity about Eve until they manage to restore faith.
Sure, the big blast of complaints will die down in a week, maybe two. But if for one moment you think this taint will disappear completely, I am certain you are wrong. Every day, every week there will be people calling BoB 'BoD' and referring to you as exploiters and cheaters, and they have cause to do so, so shutting them up with ridicule and jokes will not be as easy as it was in the past.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:57:00 -
[2259]
get their attention by clicking that little "CANCEL" button.
Nothing like tens of thousand of subscriptions canceled to get their attention, and say "we are peeved, and will not accept yet another coverup"
BoB should come clean, and stop trying to coverup and spin this, but then why bother, BoB's rep is "verified scum sucking cheaters" now, nothing will restore thier old rep...fatal blow delivered by CCP to BoB's rep.
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Scoundrelus's Alt
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:58:00 -
[2260]
Methinks that on top of all this BoB has also lost their "uber1337 pvper" reputation. Now everytime in the future when the accomplish something using actually LEGAL means it'll just be shot down as more cheating/exploting/haxxoring or whatever you want to call it. But I said it once and I'll say it again, many members of BoB knew that they had devs on their alliance and knew who those devs were. I've been told this time and time again by BoB members, they actually BRAGGED about it. Can I prove it to the people here in this thread? No. But I have nothing to gain by spoiling BoBs reputation, I'm not an alliance guy so they are not a threat to me nor do they bother me.
However I personally know the truth, that makes me feel a bit better. Believe me or don't, its up to you, but I think that anyone here who knows their EVE history will also know that BoB is typically full of ****.
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Executor Shiro
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:01:00 -
[2261]
Originally by: Soon Tzu BoB should come clean, and stop trying to coverup and spin this, but then why bother, BoB's rep is "verified scum sucking cheaters" now, nothing will restore thier old rep...fatal blow delivered by CCP to BoB's rep.
BoB can't come clean without admitting they violated the EULA regarding account sharing in regards to EVERY capital ship BoB in bob and their Cyno-NET.
If BoB did that; they'd get almost every one of their cap-ship pilot accounts banned. Which would effectively destroy their alliance forever. So, no, BoB can't come clean, they are guilty though; and I hope CCP bans all of them for breaking the rules of the EULA with their account-sharing-cyno-net.
I have no pity for cheaters.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:01:00 -
[2262]
Originally by: Redwolf and now this post/thread has mysteriously vanished from the eve-o forums.
*tinfoil*
Wow, that's an amazing find. I especially liked this part:
Originally by: t20 So if you find out a dev by accident (I hope for your sake it's an accidental figuring-out of, otherwise if you're actively hunting dev identities, i can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die ... ) have the sportmansship to keep it to yourself (confirmed or unconfirmed), consider it a test on the lost art of keeping secrets.
So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level. We don't know more than you do, We don't have GM modules fitted, We petition our losses just the same way you do, we crap our pants when we warp into a gank as much as you crap yours, we curse as much as you do when we lose that newly fitted Tech II Battleship and we certainly curse all the same (if not more) when we're sitting in space with our fighters out and murphy comes along to crash the node.
Yessssss, tell us alllllll about "sportssmanship," t20.
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Thalen Draganos
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:02:00 -
[2263]
It's really simple guys and gals. There was a lot going on and the only way we could have found out about it was for someone to use less than legal methods to aquire it. That is the really sad part.
Originally by: {AOS}Fl.Adm.Delhar (Star Trek Armada Fleet Comander) The only limitation to life itself is the imagination of the one living it.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:06:00 -
[2264]
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 11/02/2007 15:38:33
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
Avon I actually got some polite and respectfull quistion to you as a senior member of BOB.. And i hope you will ansvar them
1. Did you know or any1 els in you corp knew there was senior devs in RKK?..
2. Do you know about Cynonet and do you know of any1 in you corp have participated in cynonet account sharing?
3. how has this hole scandal effected BNC leadership..
4. Do you agree that posting RL infomation ingame or on these forum board is a banneble offence??.
5. When this hole scandal was made public how did you react personally?
Hope you will take you time to adress those quistions..
Regards lunas
Well, like I said, I'm not really a senior member of BoB, just a long standing one. Still, I will answer your questions as best I can.
1. Simply, no. I was always quite convinced that there must be at least one Dev in BoB, and I thought the same was true for most major alliances (which it seems is also true).
2. I'm going to look like a complete fool here, and most people won't believe my reply, but here it is anyway: Cynonet - a collection of alts placed at strategic jump locations to facilitate the easy moving of capital fleets. Now, I don't have a jump capable pilot in BoB (well, I do, but he hasn't got a dread yet, and he doesn't have the skills on SiSi to practice), so I have never actually paid too much attention to the whole thing. The impression I go from listening to Cap ops on TS is that the regular jump pilots had alts in the Cynonet, and they logged them on as required. (There certainly is a high level of redundancy in the net, with multiple alts in each system). Now, it is perfectly possible that those characters are shared, but I have no evidence of that. If they are shared, either in BoB, or with similar set-ups in other alliances, then that is a technical infringement of the EULA. HOWEVER, if that is the case, then maybe it is more a subject for EULA revision than bansticks. Still, if people broke the EULA by operating a "cynonet" for their alliance (any alliance), then they should not be exempt from punishment if CCP feel it needs to be enforced. Let us be clear though. It is up to CCP which parts of the EULA are enforced, and how they are interpreted. It may be that the tolerate this type of sharing (if it indeed happens) for all alliances. Bottom line .. dunno. Never seen it. No evidence. Sorry. (interesting subject though, probably deserves its own thread).
3. I know Blacklight is pretty annoyed about it all. I honestly think he was as surprised as the rest of us. The general feeling in BNC is disappointment in what is happening to the community, and a feeling that CCP has let us down.
4. No. Forum offenses get forum punishments, in-game offences get in-game punishments. It just gets too messy if you let them cross over. Pretty glad too .. if my game account got a temp ban every time I got a forum warning I'd still be in Kisogo in a Ibis. :/
5. I was shocked, angry, and disappointed. I'm a pretty high-profile member of BoB on the forums, and all this has made me look like a fool (moreso than usual). Betrayed. I guess being an old (35 today!) git helped bit though. I took a time-out (from the forums and the game) to get the whole thing in to perspective.
What I want is to see Eve get through this, for my sake, for the community's sake, and for CCP's sake.
I can understand people taking this chance to throw a few cheap shots at BoB, and I really can't blame them. There comes a point, however, than it does more harm than good.
I think we have already passed that point.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:09:00 -
[2265]
something similar to what t20 did, happened back in the day with some GMs in ultima online. they'd place castles/towers, and sell them for crazy amounts on ebay. seems they were relieved of their positions.
if you find someone that's done something wrong, who is in a position to do a LOT more, such as this t20 person, and they've gotten away with it for the better part of a year... it's hard to believe NO ONE knew anything about it, it's hard to swallow that "oh i only did this ONE thing" and nothing else, cuz i didn't get caught and i'm really not a bad person.
makes you wonder how many "bob cheated" stories have a lot of truth behind them. guess no one will know the whole truth ever, or even a partial whole truth until a ton of investigating (such as has been mentioned several times in this thread) has taken place and it's found out how exactly one person managed to keep everything shush shush from ALL co-workers for months and months at a time.
bleh, i don't even want to finish reading the thread or the blogs. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:09:00 -
[2266]
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic
You see the real question is this: BoB did not need those BPO's, and the community would never have know about them had it not been for some 'investigative journalism/hacking.
I prefer the more accurate terminology: failed blackmail attempts
Umm...you cant blackmail with information you don't have...therefor the original poster is correct.
...and you think kugu was breaking those laws just to be a Boy Scout?
And as Avon said, the community only knows because blackmail attempts failed. IF BoB or CCP had caved to his demands, he wouldn't have ever said anything.
Actually, I take that back, once he was paid, he would've done it anyways, he'd have his cake and eat it too, and honestly, after publishing that info, CCP wouldn't have been able to do anything, they couldn't say "hey you blackmailed us and we paid, wtf?", and even if they did, Kugu, despite being a repeated felon, would have had more credibility to the masses because the masses hate BoB, and the idea of BoB cheating to win makes them feel aot better than accepting that BoB steamrolled them without cheating.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:11:00 -
[2267]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 16:10:44 Heritor, EULA. Read. k?
Nighlighted, what people "call for" is not relevant, as much as you might want it to be. The rules are clear. They cannot call for the rules to be enforced and broken in the same breath with any degree of credability. So either a lot of people from every alliance, and all of Goonfleet, will be banned. Or they will not. An uneven application of bannings at this point will do FAR more harm in the longer run.
Elve Sorrow, CCP has no obligation to inform you of what they do, though. It's not a "cover up" - that only applies when there was a duty to tell you. That you FEEL you should of been informed is another issue.
Malachon Draco, and I'll be refering to HackFleet. It don't all swing one way. Even handed, even handed.
Ezoran DuBlaidd, that was GM Darwin - outed by Lum the Mad (aka Scott Jennings). It's because of that event that MMO companies feel ANY need to monitor their employees activities.
//Maya |
Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:11:00 -
[2268]
Originally by: Goran
The only difference is that the community has soured somewhat, and most of them don't even see it.
You are being played. You are carrying out (knowingly or not) the agenda of someone else.
Question is, do you want to kill the game you love in order to exact the threats of K., or do you want to work to save it.
I beg to differ, we're not exacting the threats of K. Obviously, you are a BOB alt, this is a alt, i have played this game since Feb 2004, i have friends in this game since 2004, i love this game! win, lose, podded, dont matter, this is the fun of EVE.
And now! we find our rumors come true, a dev in BOB, not only potential knowledge of game mechanics, exploits, etc.. but he also drops T2 BPO's (is t20 any relation to brynn jerdola?).
I happened to be in fountain when BOB invaded in the summer of 2005, did they abuse the dev's powers by using exploit's and unknown game mechanics to win then?
t20 has casted a big black cloud over eve-online, he didnt do it alone, galavet and sirmolle, they must have definatly knew that t20 was a dev and knew of the plan for the T2 BPO's, so why havent galavet and sirmolle been punished.
Ask yourself: Who is killing EVE?
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems)
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:11:00 -
[2269]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered but kept in game?
Why isn't Sir Molle banned when he directly violated the EULA by posting RL info about a player?
Why are devs allowed to be in director positions in major alliances?
Why is CCP trying to keep everything secrect?
Be honest, be transparent. EVE is a wonderful game, the player community is great and just loves this game (why else then so many posts?).
Please make a list with devs, GMs, Event managers. The list should contain the responsibilites of the people, their area of work and if their chars are in an alliance and if yes, in which one.
Those bold questions are the big ones in my opinion.
1.) Dev's should not take senior Alliance leadership positions. 2.) They either need to ban Sir Molle or Kugutsumen needs to have his accounts unbanned. Thats a unbelievable double standard if I've ever seen one. 3.) There should be a ingame news post and an ACTUAL sticky in General Discussion.
0/ to our newly returning BoB forum warriors. I wondered how long until we would see the spin machine again.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:12:00 -
[2270]
Originally by: Avon
2. I'm going to look like a complete fool here, and most people won't believe my reply, but here it is anyway: Cynonet - a collection of alts placed at strategic jump locations to facilitate the easy moving of capital fleets. Now, I don't have a jump capable pilot in BoB (well, I do, but he hasn't got a dread yet, and he doesn't have the skills on SiSi to practice), so I have never actually paid too much attention to the whole thing. The impression I go from listening to Cap ops on TS is that the regular jump pilots had alts in the Cynonet, and they logged them on as required. (There certainly is a high level of redundancy in the net, with multiple alts in each system). Now, it is perfectly possible that those characters are shared, but I have no evidence of that. If they are shared, either in BoB, or with similar set-ups in other alliances, then that is a technical infringement of the EULA. HOWEVER, if that is the case, then maybe it is more a subject for EULA revision than bansticks. Still, if people broke the EULA by operating a "cynonet" for their alliance (any alliance), then they should not be exempt from punishment if CCP feel it needs to be enforced. Let us be clear though. It is up to CCP which parts of the EULA are enforced, and how they are interpreted. It may be that the tolerate this type of sharing (if it indeed happens) for all alliances. Bottom line .. dunno. Never seen it. No evidence. Sorry. (interesting subject though, probably deserves its own thread)
Granted I'm not trying to get in any cheap shots myself, and I have nothing to gain either way from this but I've got a few additional questions. Well just one really.
1) What is the Cynonet? Is it another corp that you use to move ships or a third part program of some kind?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:13:00 -
[2271]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Malachon Draco, and I'll be refering to HackFleet. It don't all swing one way. Even handed, even handed.
? Me no understand.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
The Libertine
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:13:00 -
[2272]
Edited by: The Libertine on 11/02/2007 16:10:49
Originally by: Avon I can understand people taking this chance to throw a few cheap shots at BoB, and I really can't blame them.There comes a point, however, than it does more harm than good.
I think we have already passed that point.
Yes, calling out BoB for cheating/breaking the EULA is a 'cheap shot' ... got it.
When you admit your BoB-CynoNET account sharing abuse; then I'll take you seriously. You broke the rules; CCP KNEW you broke the rules; and your accounts did not get banned.
--- Since the BoB CynoNet violated the account sharing rules in the EULA; why haven't all those BoB accounts been banned yet? |
Fabienne Runestar
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:14:00 -
[2273]
So kieron answer this question since you seem to be answering some but not other questions.
Are certain players given priority on login into the game. Are their accounts flagged special so they can log in quicker, avoid queues, and overall have higher priority for their commands on the server? i am not talking about ISD, or Aurora, GMs or Devs, they probably should have higher priority. I'm talking about non admin characters. There have been accusations that this has been going on, and if it is. It is the ice breaker for me, and I'm sure a few more people will not be happy about this.
Why is this a deal breaker for me? Because if a player has priority on the server their commands go through before others. Their lock commands go through before anyone else, There module activations go through before anyone else. In essence they create lag for everyone else in the battlefield because their commands take priority. If this is going on it needs to STOP right now. No if ands or butts about it. --
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:16:00 -
[2274]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 11/02/2007 16:12:49
Originally by: Maya Rkell Elve Sorrow, CCP has no obligation to inform you of what they do, though. It's not a "cover up" - that only applies when there was a duty to tell you. That you FEEL you should of been informed is another issue.
Meh, im aware they have no legal obligation or whatever. They do, imho, have a moral obligation, although it appears to be clear they do not.
Besides that point though, CCP was always a company proud on their involvement with the community. The community helped shape the game and whatnot seems to be their motto. If they want to tell us the good news, they ought to tell us the bad.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:16:00 -
[2275]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Malachon Draco, and I'll be refering to HackFleet. It don't all swing one way. Even handed, even handed.
? Me no understand.
Goonfleet (And ISS). Client side hacking. Goons posting hackers evidence here.
Hence, Hackfleet. And basically, if CCP bans anyone they MUST be even handed about it or face real long-term damage. BoB might be the current "bad boys", but they are hardly the only ones who are guilty. The lack of...the higher end pilots of a lot of other alliances in this thread is VERY telling.
//Maya |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:17:00 -
[2276]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the only right course of action now is to stop trying to cover this up. Stop your damage control, and come clean. Give us the bloody truth. The whole truth, nothing but etc etc.
Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
they could get an outside company to do an audit , if they really want the community's faith restored in them they will have to
it will cost them money but its got to be worth it surely?
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Halada
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:18:00 -
[2277]
....oooO.............. .....(....)...Oooo... ......)../.....(....).... .....(_/.......)../..... ...............(_/....... ... I WAS ............ .......... HERE......
Click on my sig to read it ! |
Ironnight
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:20:00 -
[2278]
I still want to know how long it took for CCP to remove the BPOs from the game? When I read the two blogs it seems that it took 5-7 months, if so why did it take that long? You can make a lot of BPCs in that time.
Originally by: kieron Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer
Originally by: t20 The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP
Posted on 02.07.07 |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:21:00 -
[2279]
Baun.. the legal term for action would be "silent fraud" and actionable, with mis mal and non feasance for a basis I would beleive. Followed by breach of trust, and contract.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:23:00 -
[2280]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 16:14:18
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Malachon Draco, and I'll be refering to HackFleet. It don't all swing one way. Even handed, even handed.
? Me no understand.
Goonfleet (And ISS). Client side hacking. Goons posting hackers evidence here.
Hence, Hackfleet. And basically, if CCP bans anyone they MUST be even handed about it or face real long-term damage. BoB might be the current "bad boys", but they are hardly the only ones who are guilty. The lack of...the higher end pilots of a lot of other alliances in this thread is VERY telling.
Elve Sorrow, well, as I've said before I'm not really shocked because I haven't had any illusions about dev partiality for a long time. There's not any "shiny" I believe in. Yes, I can be depressing and bleak :P
Well, for me personally, I think the cynonet is the one thing CCP could ignore. Really, the mechanic for jumpcapable ships calls for a cynonet, and I really don't blame CCP or BoB for letting that one slide.
Its possible with redundant alts sure, but that's a 'EULA violation' I don't get upset about. I can even understand that a Dev in BoB is not gonna rat on his corpmates for something so trivial. Although IMO it would also mean that CCP would have to let all shared cyno alts slide of course.
Spawning BPOs, or exploiting complexes, thats far more serious, at least in my opinion.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:23:00 -
[2281]
Edited by: Zzleeper on 11/02/2007 16:19:55
Originally by: Fabienne Runestar So kieron answer this question since you seem to be answering some but not other questions.
Are certain players given priority on login into the game. Are their accounts flagged special so they can log in quicker, avoid queues, and overall have higher priority for their commands on the server? i am not talking about ISD, or Aurora, GMs or Devs, they probably should have higher priority. I'm talking about non admin characters. There have been accusations that this has been going on, and if it is. It is the ice breaker for me, and I'm sure a few more people will not be happy about this.
Why is this a deal breaker for me? Because if a player has priority on the server their commands go through before others. Their lock commands go through before anyone else, There module activations go through before anyone else. In essence they create lag for everyone else in the battlefield because their commands take priority. If this is going on it needs to STOP right now. No if ands or butts about it.
I would like to hear about this too kieron?
Cheaters never prosper! (only in EVE it seems)
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Tsurako
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:24:00 -
[2282]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the only right course of action now is to stop trying to cover this up. Stop your damage control, and come clean. Give us the bloody truth. The whole truth, nothing but etc etc.
Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
And we should trust anything you say, because?
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:26:00 -
[2283]
Originally by: dalman And the question why the BPOs weren't taken out of game in the summer sure is a good question.
Yes it is, albeit one with an obvious answer.
If you or I had been given a fraudulently-spawned BPO, it would have been snatched out of our hangars so fast there'd still be friction burns there. But because it was BoB, nothing was done.
As for the rest -- you can't tell me that T20, the guy who blatantly cheated on behalf of his mates and then had the chutzpah to lecture all the rest of us on "sportssmanship," didn't make use of his insider information on upcoming changes and existing "undocumented features" in the game to likewise advantage his alliance. And that's, I'm afraid, the least of what he probably did.
This is not so much about BoB's culpability, althoug it's pretty clear from the RKK messages posted at K's site that their leadership at least, had a good idea who they were dealing with (and no, don't bother with "but he's a hax0r!" -- everything that can be proven in his forums has, and everything that has been denied has been denied by the same people who lied before). It's about CCP favoring BoB, at the very least by allowing the BPO fraud to stand and allowing BoB to profit from it.
Frankly, at this point, CCP's repsonse has been inadequate on that front.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:26:00 -
[2284]
Originally by: Tsurako
And we should trust anything you say, because?
I'm not asking you to. If you want to believe I am lying, nothing I will say will convince you otherwise.
CCP is in the same position.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Gungankllr
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:28:00 -
[2285]
I'd like it if someone could forward this specific post to T20 for me.
From time to time we all do stupid things. Within a few weeks the villagers with torches will calm down, and everyone will get on with their lives.
I know how much of yourself you have put into this game. Please don't let an error in judgement color how you view your future at CCP.
I'd like to see you stay, because I know that you're going to work harder than ever to show both the players and your employers what kind of stellar employee you can really be.
I did something terribly stupid at work about 10 years ago, and was fired from a job which I had spent most of my adult life preparing for. I spent several years drifting until I finally decided that one mistake doesn't make me a bad person, it makes me human.
I'm now working at a great government job as a supervisor, and I make more money now than I did before.
Eve has a bright future, and I hope you're part of it.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:30:00 -
[2286]
Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 16:27:50
Originally by: Nighlighted
1) What is the Cynonet? Is it another corp that you use to move ships or a third part program of some kind?
It is just a bunch of alts. Gang them up, they open a cyno, jump.
At least, I think that's how it works.
It is pretty much the same as anyone moving a dread. You use a second account to create a cyno for your main, or any other ships in your main's gang. The difference is that the alts are placed in certain fixed jump systems that some clever geek worked out with a jump calculator to give the maximum coverage with the least amount of characters. Each system would then have multiple cyno alts to provide maximum redundancy of the net.
Now, it is perfectly possible that the accounts are shared, but it certainly wouldn't be a requirement. Most cap ship pilots have more than one account, and each account can have three characters. As the same old pilots fly cap ships most of the time, and at the same time, there is no reason to suppose that between them they wouldn't have legitimate access to the characters required to jump their route.
That is how I understand the CynoNet works.
(Now I'm going to get kicked from BoB for giving away t0p s3kr1t t4kt1cz)
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:33:00 -
[2287]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tsurako
And we should trust anything you say, because?
I'm not asking you to. If you want to believe I am lying, nothing I will say will convince you otherwise.
CCP is in the same position.
Things you say, indeed, those don't change much. Things you, or more importantly CCP, does would go further. CCP needs to make changes to make sure that inappropriate Dev involvement in the game is made impossible.
For example, the T2 lottery needs to go. If there is no lottery, there is no chance to cheat. I would change the aquisition of all T2 BPOs (and certainly the new ones!) to something like X Billion ISK and X Datacores of the appropriate type. Fair, equitable to all, having had research agents does help in getting the BPO and no chance to cheat.
And for example the Tournaments, they have to go to. If there is no tournament, then there is no chance for anyone in CCP to favour BoB (or any other alliance) in any way by changing rules to suit specific playstyles, or by informing one side of the fittings of the other side etc. Not saying this happened, but it is an allegation being brought against BoB/CCP at this point in time, and to avoid any hint of inpropriety, cancelling the tournaments is the way to go. Actions like that would be far better to me to indicate CCP is actually taking things seriously, rather than just saying empty stuff and doing damagecontrol. Because just damagecontrol is not enough.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Glenmorangie
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:35:00 -
[2288]
Okay these are my own views.....
t20 and his punishment - an internal ccp matter the failure to remove the bpo's - a huge mistake do i think this is the whole story - no Gm and Devs should be allowed to play all aspects of the game be it 0.0 or empire.
Do I think this is the only exmaple in eve -no Do I think BOB new - yes i think a small number new Do I think he only gave them those bpo's - no
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Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:37:00 -
[2289]
Originally by: Avon
(Now I'm going to get kicked from BoB for giving away t0p s3kr1t t4kt1cz)
Muhahahah!
Thanks for the information. Most of us would rather use our alts for mining, but driving is another tactic. As long as the accounts are not shared there should be no issues with the EULA. But I do not see this as being an advantage since you'd have to move the fleet, then switch pilots.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:39:00 -
[2290]
Kieron,
Ok, T20 is keeping his job... fine...
You can't trace the fruits of his crime... fine...
You can't really tell who knew what or when, so no heads are rolling... fine...
You can't trace the actions and steps taken leading to other actions that cost other players... fine...
You are the voice of CCP here, so I am directing my question to you...
What is being done to prevent this type of abuse from happening again?
Noob in training...
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John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:39:00 -
[2291]
as he told excatly how the t2(0) lottery worked and wich agents to use, the whole t2 lottery is a farce and the economic dmg is beyond anyones wildest nightmares, that alone would be enough reason to re-evaluate the decision and boot him
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:40:00 -
[2292]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Malthros Zenobia, I'd forgotton the complex thing. Oh yes, THAT needs action as well for even handedness.
That is because your forum-fu is weak.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Le Pecarosh
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:40:00 -
[2293]
Edited by: Le Pecarosh on 11/02/2007 16:41:39 Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
EDIT: edited to make question more understandable |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:41:00 -
[2294]
Originally by: Xenofur One random thought:
There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done: Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20. Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months. Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...
Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
Except people know what t20 looks like due to EVE-tv, and not everyone who lives in Iceland, and plays EVE, works for CCP.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Secretary
Bargain consumables
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:43:00 -
[2295]
Originally by: Fabienne Runestar Edited by: Fabienne Runestar on 11/02/2007 16:29:55 Are certain players given priority on login into the game. Are their accounts flagged special so they can log in quicker, avoid queues, and overall have higher priority for their commands on the server? i am not talking about ISD, or Aurora, GMs or Devs, they probably should have higher priority. I'm talking about non admin characters. There have been accusations that this has been going on, and if it is. It is the deal breaker for me, and I'm sure a few more people will not be happy about this.
Why is this a deal breaker for me? Because if a player has priority on the server their commands go through before others. Their lock commands go through before anyone else, There module activations go through before anyone else. In essence they create lag for everyone else in the battlefield because their commands take priority. If this is going on it needs to STOP right now. No if ands or butts about it.
First off that's pure tinfoil hattery, while it would be possible to filter logins by alliance or corp ticker in theory it would not remain secret for long. Bearing in mind CCP recruit their staff from the players and they can't always recruit from bob such a system would have to be either absolutely secret within CCP or it would end up being given to all alliances whose members joined CCP. Speedy logins after node crashes are a well known client side optimisation.
Some Devs playing in alliances and those alliances benefiting from inside knowledge or in the case of BoB illegally acquired BPO is predictably human. Developers providing their buddies with software changes which provide them an unfair advantage within a Pay to play game is fraud.
Even if it were true there's no way on earth ccp would provide airtime to the question, so if you believe it then you'll believe it whatever ccp say. I am an alt.
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Kalroth
The Initiative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:44:00 -
[2296]
As a friendly reminder to everyone here talking about a BoB Cynonet and why the people using it (if it exists) havn't been banned.
Because GOONSWARM wasn't banned for clienthacking - a WAY WAY more serious problem and this was a proven thing not just an allegation.
Next time you call upon BoB's head please include Goonswarm in the same sentence as they have committed client side hacking across their entire alliance, not just a few capital pilots sharing cyno capable characters!
<sig> 0x4B656972657473752C20746865 0x0D0A 0x57616E7420746F206A6F696E20436F7265546563683F 0x4D657373616765204B616C726F7468206E6F7721 </sig> |
Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:45:00 -
[2297]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Avon Maybe they already have?
That is the problem. No matter how much they disclose, people will aways call for more, even if there is nothing more to give.
Once that point is reached the people will just call the silence a cover-up.
At some point you have to trust CCP, otherwise you will never be happy that the issue is resolved.
If you can't trust CCP, then you may as well give up trying to find the truth, because you will always be blinded by your own preconceptions.
Well, i havent lost my trust in CCP just yet. Im giving them untill after the weekend, they can only work 40hrs a week like the rest of us. However, if this is all there is to it, then no, thats not enough.
Kieron is failing to adress alot of important issues here. Why was T20 not fired on the spot? In what way was it dealt with? Why were the T2 BPOs not removed from game the INSTANT this was discovered. Why was the community not notified of this when it was discovered?
Everything about this reeks of a cover up. A cover up in June, and noone wouldve known about a cheating developer, if all went according to CCPs plans. Now, some hacking moron forced their hand, and they still try to salvage what they can of the old cover up.
Don't get me wrong, im not calling for some witch hunt or whatever. I was quite fond of T20 myself, actually. And tbh, being the addict that i am, i wont even quit over this, as annoying as i find it. Although, i reckon BoB must be more annoyed over this.
/signed
Thanks Elve, that's precisely why I canceled my own accounts. If they can answer those simple questions to my satisfaction, then I'll re-assess the situation. But until then, I refuse to play the sucker part. Simple.
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Kalroth
The Initiative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:46:00 -
[2298]
Originally by: Le Pecarosh Edited by: Le Pecarosh on 11/02/2007 16:41:39 Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
EDIT: edited to make question more understandable
Please link to that post.
<sig> 0x4B656972657473752C20746865 0x0D0A 0x57616E7420746F206A6F696E20436F7265546563683F 0x4D657373616765204B616C726F7468206E6F7721 </sig> |
Capt Nasty
Caldari Seven and Eight
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:47:00 -
[2299]
Oh the drama, oh all the justice that we must invoce in these serius matters. 1 good T2BPO and some ****ty T2BPO has forever changed the eve universe.
I say ...
Abbandon your Titans BOB / LV / D2 ! ! ! ! Surrender your hope eve players ! ! ! !
W H Y ? ? ? You may ask......
Becouse if O N E player, DEV or Subscriber can have this impact on a total universe, he surely must be GOD ! ! ! ! !, or atleast Jesus reincarnated. With only, yes people, with O N L Y 5-6 lousy T2 BPOŠs this one man show totaly destroyed ASCN, the largest Alliance in EVE, and not only that, he singelhanded built not one, but 2 Titans, just using the named BPOŠs. With hes awsome powers he also CONTROLS the nodes. HE DECIDES WHAT NODES CAN LIVE AND WHAT NODES MUST DIE ! ! ! IT HAS NOTHING WITH THE SERVER TO DO ! ! ! ! Its only one man with a few bpoŠs, with a very small klick on the mouse he does what nobady in CCP has been able to do ever, moving server power UN-NOTICED , He dosent even have to log in at the server, he just sways the magic bpoŠs.
I feel sorry for the man, he felt for the temptetion, but it proves only to me, that he realy realy realy is into this game, just like the rest of us.
And you can take ALL of your holy crap **** - I have NEVER EVER used a exploit,game mech, shortcut and stuff it somewere were the sun dont shine. I KNOW that almost ALL Alliances has been using some exploits, minor or larger to benefit them selfs. And now it is a DEV, that has used a few ****ty BPOŠs that only one was worth to put up on sales, and you ALL act like a raging mob, screaming for blood and heads.
I have only ONE THING TO SAY ABOUY THAT ! ! ! !
CCP, since You hanged T20 out, how about hang out ALL the Alliances members that has been BANNED for using repetedly exploits ingame ! ! ! Name and Shame them to, ! PLEASE ! ! !
NOW , that would make like 99% of ALL you tards posting in here to S T F U !
Nuff Said
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:48:00 -
[2300]
Originally by: Baun Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
Pretexting is a crime in California. I have no idea whether hacking is against the law where K lives, nor whether pretexting is against the law where BoB's forums/TS spies live. But both can be considered "criminal activity."
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:51:00 -
[2301]
Originally by: Kalroth As a friendly reminder to everyone here talking about a BoB Cynonet and why the people using it (if it exists) havn't been banned.
Because GOONSWARM wasn't banned for clienthacking - a WAY WAY more serious problem and this was a proven thing not just an allegation.
Next time you call upon BoB's head please include Goonswarm in the same sentence as they have committed client side hacking across their entire alliance, not just a few capital pilots sharing cyno capable characters!
There is noone that suspect that hack was done with the help of or by developers. What is discussed here is why cheating under a devs supervision was allowed. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Lunas Feelgood
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:53:00 -
[2302]
Avon im very disapointed you wont ansvar my polite quistions..
But that says alot about you my dear..
All you post now just stinks of damage control
LV Spin: For every system you take we will only get stronger
BOB spin: We didnt do it. We are innocent.. Btw any one got an icelandic dictonary?, I cant understand a frikcing word on Teamspeak |
Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:53:00 -
[2303]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Goran
Originally by: Zzleeper
Permaban for all BOB ceo's, make an example to other alliance's that cheating is a bannable offence.
I assume then that you want every Goonswarm account banned too for systematic alliance-wide client modification?
Correct?
You wouldn't want to be seen to be unbiased, would you?
STFU... BOB alt
Is that a yes or a no?
Avon, you forgot to select your 'Goran' alt from the drop down menu.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:55:00 -
[2304]
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Originally by: Soon Tzu BoB should come clean, and stop trying to coverup and spin this, but then why bother, BoB's rep is "verified scum sucking cheaters" now, nothing will restore thier old rep...fatal blow delivered by CCP to BoB's rep.
BoB can't come clean without admitting they violated the EULA regarding account sharing in regards to EVERY capital ship BoB in bob and their Cyno-NET.
If BoB did that; they'd get almost every one of their cap-ship pilot accounts banned. Which would effectively destroy their alliance forever. So, no, BoB can't come clean, they are guilty though; and I hope CCP bans all of them for breaking the rules of the EULA with their account-sharing-cyno-net.
I have no pity for cheaters.
I hope you feel this strongly about all the others that are guilty of the same thing, including whatever alliance you are in.
It's likely that half of EVE (or any MMO in existence) could be banned for some sort of EULA or TOS violation, but in many cases they aren't. Personally I never thought the portrait exploit, or the exploit of Angel plexes, would feel the full force of bannage for those involved. I doubt you did either, however BoB is the top dog, those other groups aren't, and so more people want to see a heavier punishment on BoB.
I honestly have to ask though, what are some of you thinking with your demands? Ban all of BoB? Disband all the corps and alliances? Take half of everything BoB owns? I know these demands come largely from people who'd rather steamroll into Delve without having to fight BoB, but honestly, do you believe that nonsense is going to happen? Would you call for it if your own alliance were the culprit? no, you wouldn't. Some might, but many wouldn't.
Even is BoB is wiped out, I'm sure they'll reform as an even more lethal force, just as others have and will.
People need to stop telling CCP to 'come clean'. Full disclosure may not be something they are allowed to do, even if they want to, and they cannot legally fire t20 if they have already taken action against him, and they cannot state what action they took against him without his consent, or t20's rights will be shat all over, like it or not.
People, take a breath and think rationally when talking about something like this. A lynch mob mentality is only going to make things worse, and you'll only feed your own anger.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:55:00 -
[2305]
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Avon im very disapointed you wont ansvar my polite quistions..
But that says alot about you my dear..
All you post now just stinks of damage control
I did.
Although after reading this post I wish I hadn't bothered.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Lunas Feelgood
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:59:00 -
[2306]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Avon im very disapointed you wont ansvar my polite quistions..
But that says alot about you my dear..
All you post now just stinks of damage control
I did.
Although after reading this post I wish I hadn't bothered.
Sorry m8..
Ill delele my post right away
LV Spin: For every system you take we will only get stronger
BOB spin: We didnt do it. We are innocent.. Btw any one got an icelandic dictonary?, I cant understand a frikcing word on Teamspeak |
Galea Wildfang
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.11 16:59:00 -
[2307]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Galea Wildfang You spineless alt can just stop here. People state their feelings, concerns and believes in this thread, most of them once, a few of them a little more often. And whatever you say (if anything at all) will not change that. So STFU. Too bad this thread is not located in the sell forum, else you'd receive a warning for each bump after the first (per day that is).
So I guess I'm not entitled to state my own opinions if they disagree with yours? So whos the one wanting to restrict discussion and silence anyone who disagrees with them? I like this 'debate'.. Its really been an enlightening read so far on the lengths some people will go.. And I'm directing that comment at all sides not just the ones who think CCP and BoB are in bed toghether and haxoring thier way to glory..
You are entitled to your opinion just like every one else. And you sure have the right to post it here. I'm just tired reading your posts which lack substance in most cases. You try to pick on some individuals and tell them, how wrong they are. No one here is really wrong or right, they just have emotions, thoughts and believes and state them.
Originally by: Avon (...)
Thanks for you answers. I can pretty much feel how it is currently in your position. I've been there myself (in a different game and for different reasons .. once you're up on the foodchain, people tend to believe you can only be better than them by unfairly means).
I don't know if I want to know the entire truth behind it all, but I wan't a believable truth stated by CCP, and I want them to ensure, that stuff like this never happens again. I can only speak for myself, but seeing that your corp seems to be the only one out of your alliance to state their points makes your answers just the more believable.
I don't want the whole affair destroy the game we all (or at least most of us) enjoy. I want t2 to be forced to play on the chinese server, starting as a n00b (stated that already though).
Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
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Kalroth
The Initiative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:00:00 -
[2308]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Kalroth As a friendly reminder to everyone here talking about a BoB Cynonet and why the people using it (if it exists) havn't been banned.
Because GOONSWARM wasn't banned for clienthacking - a WAY WAY more serious problem and this was a proven thing not just an allegation.
Next time you call upon BoB's head please include Goonswarm in the same sentence as they have committed client side hacking across their entire alliance, not just a few capital pilots sharing cyno capable characters!
There is noone that suspect that hack was done with the help of or by developers. What is discussed here is why cheating under a devs supervision was allowed.
My feelings towards cynonets are that they should be allowed but not changing the EULA but by simply overlooking it as I think is being done now.
The entire reason you are not allowed to share accounts as written in the EULA is to avoid problems with 'I lend my account to my brother and now all my stuff is gone buhu' petitions. By making this bannable (hopefully) the 'not so bright' people will think twice before sharing account details.
Sharing an account with a friend/brother is being done and 99% of the EVE population with actual friends have done so.
Seriously - the whole cynonet thing is not even important and asking about it over and over again only makes the asking party look stupid not CCP, BoB, T20, etc.
There are far more interresting and important questions to be asked - why wasnt the BPO's removed but left with BoB for more than half a year? What punishment has T20 suffered? Have you removed T20's rights to play on TQ? If not, why not?
<sig> 0x4B656972657473752C20746865 0x0D0A 0x57616E7420746F206A6F696E20436F7265546563683F 0x4D657373616765204B616C726F7468206E6F7721 </sig> |
Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:03:00 -
[2309]
One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Tar Kovsky
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:03:00 -
[2310]
Originally by: Malachon Draco For example, the T2 lottery needs to go. If there is no lottery, there is no chance to cheat.
There's no question in my mind that the T2 lottery is responsible for a lot of bad feelings. The process is opaque and looks arbitrary, and by its very nature favors long-time players over more recent converts. I know quite a few people who've won five or more BPOs through the lottery, and equally many with freighterloads of research points who (until recently) hadn't won any. The same mechanism obviously won't be used for T3 manufacturing.
But your assertion that the elimination of the lottery will make cheating impossible somehow is entirely unfounded and reflects a lack of understanding of how the illicitly-obtained "t20 BPOs" came into being. GMs apparently have the ability to create or "spawn" any item that exists in the game. Presumably, this is ordinarily done to do things like restore ships that were lost to a node crash. However, as in the case of the GM who was fired last summer, it is also possible to create rare and valuable items in the same way -- such as a T2 BPO. This does not require any manipulation of the lottery whatsoever -- which is likely to be a considerably more difficult feat.
I would imagine that the changes Hellmar described in his letter involve better tracking and regular review of such "spawned" items -- and particularly those such as officer modules and T2 blueprints that can have such a heavy impact on the game. Because the GMs need to be able to create objects to perform their jobs, this is really the only reasonable approach that can be taken to discover similar ethical failures in the future.
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Lunas Feelgood
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:04:00 -
[2311]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 11/02/2007 15:38:33
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Actually the exact opposite has been established.
Avon I actually got some polite and respectfull quistion to you as a senior member of BOB.. And i hope you will ansvar them
1. Did you know or any1 els in you corp knew there was senior devs in RKK?..
2. Do you know about Cynonet and do you know of any1 in you corp have participated in cynonet account sharing?
3. how has this hole scandal effected BNC leadership..
4. Do you agree that posting RL infomation ingame or on these forum board is a banneble offence??.
5. When this hole scandal was made public how did you react personally?
Hope you will take you time to adress those quistions..
Regards lunas
Well, like I said, I'm not really a senior member of BoB, just a long standing one. Still, I will answer your questions as best I can.
1. Simply, no. I was always quite convinced that there must be at least one Dev in BoB, and I thought the same was true for most major alliances (which it seems is also true).
2. I'm going to look like a complete fool here, and most people won't believe my reply, but here it is anyway: Cynonet - a collection of alts placed at strategic jump locations to facilitate the easy moving of capital fleets. Now, I don't have a jump capable pilot in BoB (well, I do, but he hasn't got a dread yet, and he doesn't have the skills on SiSi to practice), so I have never actually paid too much attention to the whole thing. The impression I go from listening to Cap ops on TS is that the regular jump pilots had alts in the Cynonet, and they logged them on as required. (There certainly is a high level of redundancy in the net, with multiple alts in each system). Now, it is perfectly possible that those characters are shared, but I have no evidence of that. If they are shared, either in BoB, or with similar set-ups in other alliances, then that is a technical infringement of the EULA. HOWEVER, if that is the case, then maybe it is more a subject for EULA revision than bansticks. Still, if people broke the EULA by operating a "cynonet" for their alliance (any alliance), then they should not be exempt from punishment if CCP feel it needs to be enforced. Let us be clear though. It is up to CCP which parts of the EULA are enforced, and how they are interpreted. It may be that the tolerate this type of sharing (if it indeed happens) for all alliances. Bottom line .. dunno. Never seen it. No evidence. Sorry. (interesting subject though, probably deserves its own thread).
3. I know Blacklight is pretty annoyed about it all. I honestly think he was as surprised as the rest of us. The general feeling in BNC is disappointment in what is happening to the community, and a feeling that CCP has let us down.
4. No. Forum offenses get forum punishments, in-game offences get in-game punishments. It just gets too messy if you let them cross over. Pretty glad too .. if my game account got a temp ban every time I got a forum warning I'd still be in Kisogo in a Ibis. :/
5. I was shocked, angry, and disappointed. I'm a pretty high-profile member of BoB on the forums, and all this has made me look like a fool (moreso than usual). Betrayed. I guess being an old (35 today!) git helped bit though. I took a time-out (from the forums and the game) to get the whole thing in to perspective.
What I want is to see Eve get through this, for my sake, for the community's sake, and for CCP's sake.
I can understand people taking this chance to throw a few cheap shots at BoB, and I really can't blame them. There comes a point, however, than it does more harm than good.
I think we have already passed that point.
Great post and thx you for taking the time to ansvar those quistions..
LV Spin: For every system you take we will only get stronger
BOB spin: We didnt do it. We are innocent.. Btw any one got an icelandic dictonary?, I cant understand a frikcing word on Teamspeak |
Photon Lightwielder
Amarr Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:10:00 -
[2312]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
It's only a part of the damage control. In July they thought they could keep it all hidden. Now that they're exposed they have to show that they "take responsibility" or putting it in better words, try to cover up as much as posible by throwing the community some "treats"
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baaaaal
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:14:00 -
[2313]
Quote: My feelings towards cynonets are that they should be allowed but not changing the EULA but by simply overlooking it as I think is being done now.
i dont really agree with account sharing for a cyno net, but i can understand the reasons why bob would have done it.
anyone who owns a capital ships knows just how much a pain in the arse it is having to have a second account to be able to move your ship about easily.
this cynonet just shows the flaw that exists. let carriers/dreads jump without them but not into sov claimed systems that dont belong to the alliance the carrier/dread belongs to motherships/titans should need a cyno no matter what.
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Hashi Lebwohl
Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:17:00 -
[2314]
I would like to suggest that CCP go for a truth and reconciliation commission? This would clear the air and allow the game to proceed with a lower level of recrimination.
People admit to what they have done in private (evemail etc) to an independent person and they promise not to do so again. At the end of the commission the independent person publishes consolidated details of the exploits and breaches of rules reported and maybe split it by groups, including Alliances.
Those that own up are absolved of their "crimes" except perhaps where there is a commercial aspect ie macro miners. Afterwards all "crimes" to be rigorously dealt with.
In addition, I would make sharing of accounts registerable but with the proviso that no petitions would be allowed on those accounts - ie there is no safety net.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:17:00 -
[2315]
Originally by: Nils Bohr Pretexting
Do you even know what that actually is? It only applies when the intent is to gain personal information - social security numbers, banking records, phone records and so on.
It's quite specific, and does not stretch to this situation.
//Maya |
vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:21:00 -
[2316]
Originally by: Avon
Or could it be that I am just putting forward my views?
I'm not running damage limitation for my alliance, I'm not in a position to do so.
Like I said, I can only give my perspective, but I am willing to do so. Your hostility towards me is misplaced, and does nothing to encourage me to risk my position in my alliance to continue discussing this.
You can put forward your views in one or two posts. You however are almost taking questions and replying to them and attempting to refute everything written in this thread in a hope this thread is about to run it's course and anyone reading it at a later date will see you successfuly refuting all accusations thus proving BOD correct once more. What are you actually? Just a grunt are you a member other look up to or middle management? You mention all three in last 2 pages. What are you then? A dedicated PR person?
Lack of BOD response in first 75!! pages of this thread speaks for itself. Yo were letting the community speak their mind and wait for us to calm down so you can sweep in for the grand finale and take the victory.
Let me paste what i find a hateful post that was written by your glorious leader and was directed at me: SirMolle Posted - 2006.12.13 12:21:00 I dare you, post EVERYTHING. right now. Complete with wtfever you are accusing us of. And please by all means, BRING FACTS AND PROOF. Put up or shut up.
Why I'm responding to you? I hate liers and whiners. Simple as.
Tick Tock Molle....lol
Molle's post is a hateful one. All i can say is go to kugutsumen's page and see for yourself who a proven liar is. Molle or is it me?
FACT remains that your alliance has leaders that a proven cheaters and are performing widespread, massive and very well organised violations of EULA in order to gain advantage over other factions of 0.0 space. BOD is also being shown favouritism by CCP. Also don't forget the reaction from your leadership when T20 was discovered. It was not: "Wow we have a dev in corp" but rather in the sense of: If i could only get my hands on the bastard who betrayed us having, and knowing about it, a very "helpful" dev in our corp.
First reaction speaks for itself. All your damage control attempts are futile now. The story is out. You should rather turn to the people who, you say betrayed your trust, and demand answers from your corrupt leadership instaed of running damage control. All this provided you are sincere in your words which i doubt since all you claimed in the past is being proven as a LIE. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:22:00 -
[2317]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
They took actions against him last year. The IA group was formed a month ago. They may have been working on the IA group between then, and only got it running in jan. That excerpt really isn't all that clear on the matter.
Elve, don't be mis-informed if you think kugu's actions are what prompted a response. T20 has been punished since summer it would seem.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:23:00 -
[2318]
Here is an interesting question: T20 is the only BoB dev who got outed as a cheater, but several devs had their names outed, and had to delete their toons. How many of those 'innocent' BoB devs are in CCPs vaunted hardcore IA team?
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:24:00 -
[2319]
Avon I beleive what you say, I mean that, BUT.. the community and I mean the folks that actively fought BOB, have seen WAY too much for things to be discredited as a bug, or coincedence.
CCP was fully informed on those scenarios well over a YEAR AGO.. and nothing was done.. Hilmar did absolutely nothing about it.
Soorry but what does CCP or BOB expect the community to do when they tell us "Proof or STFU" and when we do, they deny they did what we caught them at ?
Not 1 person who was at the end of the mod thingy that before BOB (was evolution back in the day),would deny that they had inside knowledge to use those mods to get the results they did.
The local chat by BOB members AFTER the incidents, and including DURING prove that they knew what they were doing and continued to do so, including the same incidents with lotka Volterra as of late.
Do you feel that we dont plan, and work hard for our advances in this game? And when we do we get slapped 10 steps backwards, because these scenarios get left undone, think of how we feel for a moment ok?
I know all I want is a level playing field,win or lose, but that hasnt been the case at all.
BOB pulls the hate card against the community, then insults our integrity how crummy we are etc, if you were privy to some convos(which I wont devulge atm) youd be rather ****ed, as would the rest of the EVE community.
Im not trying to sink this game, god knows Ive spent so much time trying to build good things for EVE, and fun for us all.
As for former Imperium pilots fighting against BOB, and actually doing what we did to BOB at the time, with no other allaince helping us. Then BOB doing what it did to defend their position and actually getting away with it after we were successful really irks me and the players that were affillated with that attack.
The community as a whole doent care if it LOSES, or WINs as long as its FAIR.
The playing field hasnt been FAIR for a long time, and that does NOT include ALL BOB pilots, there are many good players in BOB, as I have flown with those players prior.
It truly sickens me that it has come this far to get results, when ALL of it could have avoided and straightened out long ago.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:28:00 -
[2320]
I also believe the T2 lottery have to go. It creates items that not everyone can have. Those items, the T2 BPOs are the I win buttons of eve. Their power is so strong that it seduced a dev into risking his job. Please eliminate the lottery. Seed those BPOs in the market and be done with it. T2 BPO owners will be mad but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. It was bad enough that a pure bit of LUCK could make your wallet's balance infinite. And it's even worst if that random 'LUCK' can be shifted toward an specific alliance. It stinks.
Among the player base there was always the feeling that the T2 lootery was not so 'RANDOM'. Every time we saw somebody posting about winning multiple BPOs we doubted the randomness of the system. Now we see a Dev being cought with 6 T2 BPOs. Come on, the lottery has to go. |
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:30:00 -
[2321]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 17:28:41 vipeer,
You can keep posting but Avon can't... You complained when BoB didn't post, and when they do... You haven't bothered to read Avon's posts... You are accepting the word of a criminal hacker as gospel...
You're a Hackfleet shill.
XirtamVotf, your ability to not let go of the past is legendary.
Shameless Avenger, yes, it creates a REAL MARKET! This is one of the major attractions of Eve to many players. They are not "I-win" buttons, and less than a dozen items have anything like the profits you appear to believe they have. Most of the major T2 producers *BOUGHT* their BPO's.
That you feel something is not proof. That the lottery was circumvented on a few items does not mean the concept is by base invalid. The alternatives either mean the producers don't need to buy their BPO's, there is no player market, or T2 items triple in price.
The lottery MUST stay.
//Maya |
meepsheep
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:33:00 -
[2322]
Quote: XirtamVotf, your ability to not let go of the past is legendary.
you could say this is the past seeing as it happened before last summer. maybe we should all let go of the past and move on
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Firebyrd
Gallente Crooked River
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:34:00 -
[2323]
Edited by: Firebyrd on 11/02/2007 17:32:38 over the summer as i remember we had major server problems, and alot of work was going into Revelations work, with all of this going on i believe CCPs policy's about Dev interaction and policing became lax, and laid back.....
WHat T20 did wasn't right from a Moral and gaming standpoint, every single player here has made Moral mistakes, at one point in our lives, some of us got cought others didnt, i think CCP was hoping that when T20 was caught and delt with, would be handled intenally, and without us knowing what all happened...T20 should NOT lose his job, but i think a stern warning should be given and maybe he got a temp-ban from work(suspension, or fine or something along the lines)...
This should serve as a wakeup to CCP, to be more dilident in watching how their knowledge effects others around them, and learn to be more cautious in the future...
As for the so called whistle-blower, he should receive a perma ban, because he has put each and everyone of our accounts in jepeordy, as well broke cival laws, his hacking could go as far as haveing financial and private info on each person in this comunity as well as CCPs...
i go by the old adage 2 wrongs, dont make a right... what this whistle-blower person did was wrong from the beginning, and should not be allowed to play any longer...
This game is a breakthrough game, one that has never been seen before, and no real copies of it is seen in the foreseeable future, i think its time to put it to rest, let CCP get back to working on things that need to be worked on, and the rest of us get back to the game...the continued discussion of this is doing no more good but creating more resentment, and frustration....
T20, and CCP made a judgemental mistake... its time to move on, and go back to playing this wonderful game... And i as One accept his apolegy
this is the first i've spoken and will be the last time i follow this discussion, as its no longer serving any purpose
edited for a bit of clarification
----------------------------------------------- In the End , there can be only 1
Learn from yesterday, that u may be stronger tomorrow
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:35:00 -
[2324]
Hey Maya , the past may be the past, but if its NOT corrected its not the past.
You know the saying come on " about being doomed to repeat if we forget it " . Such a moronic response from you
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Plommon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:35:00 -
[2325]
Originally by: meepsheep
Quote: XirtamVotf, your ability to not let go of the past is legendary.
you could say this is the past seeing as it happened before last summer. maybe we should all let go of the past and move on
Yeah you would like that wouldn't you...
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Hikari Kisugi
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:37:00 -
[2326]
Originally by: Hashi Lebwohl I would like to suggest that CCP go for a truth and reconciliation commission? This would clear the air and allow the game to proceed with a lower level of recrimination. People admit to what they have done in private (evemail etc) to an independent person and they promise not to do so again. At the end of the commission the independent person publishes consolidated details of the exploits and breaches of rules reported and maybe split it by groups, including Alliances.
A warcrimes tribunal, so to speak, I think this is the right time for such a gesture. It might clear the air, and actually give some respect back to CCP. Since there have passed many transgressions by players, corporations and alliances in the past, if the sweeping under the carpet is going to continue, the game will die. Since the blogs suggest that this will not occur, and that everythign will be transparent, now is the time to state the misdemeanours of the past, make them public, ratify them, and let us all move forward.
Forward. The future of Eve. ----- 'The worst spot in hell is reserved for those who betray.'
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:38:00 -
[2327]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Hey Maya , the past may be the past, but if its NOT corrected its not the past.
You know the saying come on " about being doomed to repeat if we forget it " .
I completely agree - yes, you ARE doomed to repeat the same mistakes, since you're dead set on blaming everything except the real causes of the falls.
//Maya |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:38:00 -
[2328]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 11/02/2007 17:43:44
Originally by: Plommon
Originally by: meepsheep
Quote: XirtamVotf, your ability to not let go of the past is legendary.
you could say this is the past seeing as it happened before last summer. maybe we should all let go of the past and move on
Yeah you would like that wouldn't you...
oops that was me , you thought i was a bob alt?
btw if it was unclear to you the rolling eyes smile was intended to make the "maybe we should all let go of the past and move on" comment apear sarcastic
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:39:00 -
[2329]
Enlighten us OBIMAYA? the all knowing one
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:39:00 -
[2330]
Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 11/02/2007 17:36:15 I see a community and game company in shambles here Avon, because they are going out of their way to treat BOB fairly.
The funny thing is, they could instantly reverse this whole course of events now transpiring by banning the lot of you, fair, unfair, or otherwise. They don't "have" to be fair to you all. Its their game, they can do what they want, and right now, they are suffering big time all because they are standing up for you all.
If it were any other alliance, they'd just get banned no questions asked. If it was any individual, they'd just get banned without any attempt at fairness, and I'm sure BOB would say justly so. But since its BOB, and I believe only because you are BOB, you are actually getting treated fairly. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
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Benco97
Gallente Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:44:00 -
[2331]
All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
One of the DEVs did something naughty, it's being dealt with, as far as I care that's the end of the discussion and CCP don't have to tell us anything at all, it's THEIR game, they dont' have to be fair, they don't have to tell you anything at all. Just drop it and be happy that it's being looked at.
"MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:45:00 -
[2332]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Xthril Ranger Every eve related website I got an account with got my real name.
Rather you than me.
I never give out my real name over the internet, unless it is over a secure connection to someone I trust with those details.
You really should consider the same very basic levels of net-security imho.
You might be interested to know that many corporations require your real name and some basic info about you before they will let you join. Even those corps that do not require this basic sort of information always will ask you who your alts are and what corporations they are in (if there is a corp in game, in an alliance, that does not do this I would be shocked). Lying about this is and then using the information you obtain for purposes against that which the people who gave you the access intneded *is pretexting*. Simply because teamspeak passwords and forum information are not as obviously valuable as CC #s and SSNs does not mean that it is perfectly legal to lie your way into access to those resources (forgetting of course the personal information that will inevitably be disclosed on corporate forums to which you gain access).
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:50:00 -
[2333]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 14:07:29
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
One CCP employee CHEATED he happened to be a member of BoB.
Please realise this CCP Cheated..do you understand
Ya and thats the entire thrust of this whole thread.
While some may want to dissemble and try to act like everyone is outrage solely because this involves BoB, this is really not the case.
The primary problems are the way in which CCP has reacted to this. They did nothing until they were forced to do so, they have disclosed no information, they have continued to lie to us and they have not enforced their policies consistently.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:51:00 -
[2334]
Originally by: Marcellog Edited by: Marcellog on 11/02/2007 17:45:39 Why does two GMs appear in the system where BoB will attack a POS, and few minutes before this attack these 2 GMs were inside ASCN POS????
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
Who will do something about it, I would bet that BoB's ACSN attack was unfair, since we could see GMs helping BoB. Shame CCP - Shame BoB!!!
GM ships have also apeared around goon pos, im not sure how old the goon screenshot i saw is though, i assume its fairly new
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
John Tasker
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:52:00 -
[2335]
Originally by: Marcellog Edited by: Marcellog on 11/02/2007 17:45:39 Why does two GMs appear in the system where BoB will attack a POS, and few minutes before this attack these 2 GMs were inside ASCN POS????
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
Who will do something about it, I would bet that BoB's ACSN attack was unfair, since we could see GMs helping BoB. Shame CCP - Shame BoB!!!
gm panic, i`m not suprised
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:53:00 -
[2336]
Originally by: Benco97 All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
One of the DEVs did something naughty, it's being dealt with, as far as I care that's the end of the discussion and CCP don't have to tell us anything at all, it's THEIR game, they dont' have to be fair, they don't have to tell you anything at all. Just drop it and be happy that it's being looked at.
I just want to play by the rules, get along, pay my fees, and enjoy the game. I'm like thousands of people here.
Yet if my presence is causing trouble, whether its my fault or not, I recognize that CCP doesn't have to put up with me, and can ban me without a refund.
I'm here at CCP's pleasure, and at my pleasure. If I do something wrong (wrong defined as what CCP doesn't like), they can kick me out. I don't even have to deserve being kicked out, because as I said in my first post on this thread, its CCP's game, their property, and I'm just a patron. They can do me like Kugutsumen.
So I hope, really do hope, that BOB understands exactly how much CCP is going out of their way to help them, and give them the benefit of the doubt. They are not obligated to give a "benefit of the doubt" to anyone here.
Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:53:00 -
[2337]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/02/2007 07:42:09
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Other than the guy who got the years mixed up... your constant pro BoB save teh devs banter is annoying and pointless.
As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve..
Says the person with only one point of view that cannot be swayed by rational discussions.
*ring ring* Hear that? It's the kettle calling... ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
Dust Angel
Harvest System Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:56:00 -
[2338]
im wondering if CCP will even respond to us at this point, or ignore it after giving us half baked answers.
mirel yirrin > "DU HAST VERBROKEN DAS FORUMERN RULEN! DU SWINE!" |
Jane Spondogolo
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:57:00 -
[2339]
Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 11/02/2007 17:55:43 Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 11/02/2007 17:54:49 All you folk calling for T-20, etc to be sacked need to understand that he's just a human like the rest of us. Ie, has to pay rent/mortgage, food, maybe feed kids, etc etc.
I'm ****ed off deeply at what happened, but I respect that he's owned up and put his own integrety, and heck even employment at risk by coming out with this. If he wanted to denial might of rode this out.
EVE is important to all of us. Its our hobby. We *need* this game to survive, so we can continue our little pew-pew space fun game. Because lets face it, WOW sucks.
I think we need to take this ingame, and lo and behold the veichle for this has emerged. By kicking the shiet out of BOB or whatever, we get to take this out of our systems, eliminate the dark shadow thas haunted this universe tand rebalance the universe IN GAME.
I think its clear CCP has realised that brushing over indiscretions can only backfire, and after the bashing theyve copped over this, I doubt it'll happen again, all things considered.
Our part of the equasion is NOT to be angry asholes and get some guy fired or whatever, but to charge up the railguns and smash some goddamned justice orifices into bobs forehead.
Justice via podding I say.
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:59:00 -
[2340]
Originally by: Benco97 All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
One of the DEVs did something naughty, it's being dealt with, as far as I care that's the end of the discussion and CCP don't have to tell us anything at all, it's THEIR game, they dont' have to be fair, they don't have to tell you anything at all. Just drop it and be happy that it's being looked at.
I liked eve due to the fact everyone has a level playing field, setups mattered and teamwork is the key... You had to gather intel on the hostiles, all of this takes time and effort and thats a lot of work for some people even if it's a game.
Reason I don't like it now... Devs can help anyone in game, take away the chance factor of internal workings and due to the time of year he gets caught hes able to do it again once the heat is cooled down. ------------------------------------------
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:00:00 -
[2341]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Baun.. the legal term for action would be "silent fraud" and actionable, with mis mal and non feasance for a basis I would beleive. Followed by breach of trust, and contract.
"Silent fraud" only occurs when there is a legal duty to disclose and answers are implied through silence.
In this case, presumably those people who gain access to others' corporations were asked the sort of questions that create a duty to disclose (i.e. please tell me these things before we will give you forum and ts access) and they responded by lying about them.
That is not "silent fraud" it is just simple fraud. If there is a reason that it would not be actionable it would be in cases where there is no demonstrable injury flowing from the fraud.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:03:00 -
[2342]
Let's be clear about something:
The T2 market is NOT a real market, because supply is entirely and artificially controlled by CCP. Access to the T2 BPO's is ramdom (or, as is evidenced here, not-so-random), and narrow. This creates an artificial market. Supply is fixed, or even deliberately restricted, as demand increases. This creates artificial price pressures.
There are REAL markets in Eve though... look at the T1 ship market. Prices fluxuate across regions and suppliers typically attempt to meet demand. If Mega-T's are sellin' somewhere for 120 mill, you can BET that Mega-T producers will try to ride that wave of profit until supply meets market demand, and prices fall.
IMO, the T2 lottery has been shown to be flawed. We need a NEW way of distributing T2 BPOs that isn't so rigid. Perhaps one based chance for each researcher. That is, each day, a researcher has a small chance of getting a BPO offer based on the number of RP's he has with the agent. After all, it makes sense that if 10,000 researchers are researching T2 BPO's, that there should be more BPO's spawned than if only 1,000 are doing it.
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Rikeka
Amarr Eye of God X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:04:00 -
[2343]
Sorry, but I think t20 should be fired/terminated (whatever term you prefer)
1) Because shows CCP still cares, even after all this mess. 2) Because a lot has happened after the initla accusations.
Sucks, I hate firings (though I have to always do a few of those from time to time) but I guess this is what most, of the ones worried about what`s going on, want.
Good luck CCP. Will take some time to recover everyone`s trust, but EvE is worth it.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:04:00 -
[2344]
Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:05:00 -
[2345]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
Trask Kilraen, a real market does not have unlimited supply either. So your argument is circular.
//Maya |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:07:00 -
[2346]
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Baun Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
Pretexting is a crime in California. I have no idea whether hacking is against the law where K lives, nor whether pretexting is against the law where BoB's forums/TS spies live. But both can be considered "criminal activity."
Personal jurisdiction isn't the simplest topic, no matter what country you are talkiing about, but it may be entirely irrelevant whether it is illegal where the person who did it lives. More likely, it matters more where the relevant information is "located" and the extent to which there any purposeful availment of that jurisdiction. The issue is quite a bit more complicated since what is being dealt with is not tangible and as such the virtual location of the information may also be less relevant then the wronged party's home jurisdiction but, as I said, this is unclear.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Rikeka
Amarr Eye of God X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:07:00 -
[2347]
Originally by: Banco97 All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
One of the DEVs did something naughty, it's being dealt with, as far as I care that's the end of the discussion and CCP don't have to tell us anything at all, it's THEIR game, they dont' have to be fair, they don't have to tell you anything at all. Just drop it and be happy that it's being looked at
You play the game for free? If that`s the case, YOU may have no reason to complain. Others DO have every right to complain.
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:09:00 -
[2348]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
I've removed it but that line was crossed with t20 abused the trust of CCP and the playerbase of Eve. It's no more then he deserves. ------------------------------------------
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2349]
Originally by: XirtamVotf
As for former Imperium pilots fighting against BOB, and actually doing what we did to BOB at the time, with no other allaince helping us. Then BOB doing what it did to defend their position and actually getting away with it after we were successful really irks me and the players that were affillated with that attack.
Sorry Xirt, but that just isn't going to wash - you picked the wrong guy to try and convince.
You seem to forget that I was there paving the way for Imperium before it was even founded, and I was on the other side when it got kicked out of 0.0
I have a rather unique persepective on the whole thing, so don't try to spin it for me.
(Oh, and I'm sure KIA will thank you for forgetting their efforts, no matter how short lived, at fighting for you.)
I saw action on both sides, and neither was any more "dirty" than the other.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2350]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:07:02
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
There is no underlying legal duty to tell anyone who wants to know your personal information, or indeed any information at all.
When they ask for this information in order to justify giving you access to some of their property, a legal duty to respond truthfully (or decline to answer the questions) is created. Indeed, a legal duty not to imply an acceptable answer that might induce their reliance is also created. When you lie to someone so that they will give you access to something they would not have given you had you not lied you have committed fraud. When you make use of that access in a way they explicitly do not want you to you have probably committed a crime.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2351]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
agreed, one sick puppy, doesnt deserve to be part of the community.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[2352]
Originally by: Lori Carlyle
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
I've removed it but that line was crossed with t20 abused the trust of CCP and the playerbase of Eve. It's no more then he deserves.
I understand you are upset and I share it to a great extent, but there is a limit.
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
BigDave
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:13:00 -
[2353]
I'd like to understand why this discussion is buried in a thread on a portal linked in the 3rd of 9 stickied threads on the general discussion forum, with little to draw attention except the post count. Any organization truly concerned about the perception of misconduct would boldly emblazon their front door with the headline article, "SOMEONE CHEATED AND WE'RE SORRY!" Instead, every thread on the general forum to mention it is deleted, and customers who hear third-hand by viral rumor are left to do their own detective work to find the story. That leaves the perception of an ongoing coverup -- in this case, reputation damage control, rather than boldy proclaiming mea culpa and explaining why anyone should trust the organization again.
CCP's Commitment, if you ask me, can be found in the single line Hellmar chose to highlight in bold print:
Quote: The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here.
So there we have it. No change to business as usual. Short of a "sea change" in the CCP response to these very serious allegations, Eve will lose the single most valuable component in setting it apart from other MMOs: its sophisticated playerbase. Devs, have fun playing in the litterbox with yourselves and your pets. I'm giving you a week to find a real commitment to ethical conduct, then I'm moving on. T20, you can have my stuff (including T2 ammo BPOs - I know you lub them!).
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:14:00 -
[2354]
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:07:02
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
There is no underlying legal duty to tell anyone who wants to know your personal information, or indeed any information at all.
When they ask for this information in order to justify giving you access to some of their property, a legal duty to respond truthfully (or decline to answer the questions) is created. Indeed, a legal duty not to imply an acceptable answer that might induce their reliance is also created. When you lie to someone so that they will give you access to something they would not have given you had you not lied you have committed fraud. When you make use of that access in a way they explicitly do not want you to you have probably committed a crime.
Baun, that is bluntly completely untrue. Otherwise using an alias online would be a crime. With no contract or financial deal between the parties, there is NO duty of truth*. This is why businesses use contracts and NDA's, ffs.
(*It is a crime in some countries to lie about your age online, but that is all)
//Maya |
Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2355]
Originally by: Avon
I saw action on both sides, and neither was any more "dirty" than the other.
Please throw a "as far as I know" on there. Fact is, most of BoB didn't know about this. And if other shady dealings are going on, most of BoB isn't aware of that either. But someone in BoB did or does know about it.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2356]
Originally by: BigDave I'd like to understand why this discussion is buried in a thread on a portal linked in the 3rd of 9 stickied threads on the general discussion forum, with little to draw attention except the post count.
Well, quite simply, this is where this thread belongs. Duplicate threads are deleted as per the forum rules.
People claiming this is somehow hidden really have no understanding of the forum structure.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Trilliam Blackthorn
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[2357]
I wonder why the easiest fix for all of this has been ruled out - simply forbid CCP employees from playing the game on TQ. There is already a test server - they can paly on that if they need to test things.
Why anyone would put the ability for employees to continue having their playtime above a good business decision (i.e. restore customer confidence in one fell swoop) is beyond me.
As long as Devs are allowed to play alongside paying customers, there will always be the possibility, however remote, that the playing field is not level. In business, perception is everything. In this case, even the perception of abuse being possible hurts the not only the game itself, but future growth prospects as well.
Aside from all the emotions portrayed in this thread, I would simply like CCP to make the smart business decision here. BAN DEVELOPERS PERMANENTLY from the game.
Think about it...all CCP has to tell the palyerbase/public is this:
"This will NEVER happen again, because our employees are banned from playing the game."
Such an easy fix....why don't they do it?
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Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:16:00 -
[2358]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Malachon Draco Lori, remove that sig now. Whatever the line may be, you're way past it.
agreed, one sick puppy, doesnt deserve to be part of the community.
I speak my mind..
I don't deserve to be here.. Sorry didn't know this game was for "gifted" people. I pay to be here just like everyone else. However i'll try to restrict my personal views onto this forum. Applogies for any offence caused. ------------------------------------------
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2359]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Elve, don't be mis-informed if you think kugu's actions are what prompted a response. T20 has been punished since summer it would seem.
See, that's the interesting thing, and it's what im trying to point out.
Rationally, i can say that you are right. I know it. If i give it some thought, the only logical and rational conclusion is that they've dealt with it, and that Kugu's actions have nothing to do with it.
The impression im getting though, is the opposite. The impression i had when i first read this, before i started thinking about it, was the opposite. I got the feeling that CCP is only trying to damage control, or more specificly: That CCP did not act untill the publicity forced them. Case in point:
Originally by: Photon Lightwielder It's only a part of the damage control. In July they thought they could keep it all hidden. Now that they're exposed they have to show that they "take responsibility" or putting it in better words, try to cover up as much as posible by throwing the community some "treats"
And that's what im getting to. It's no longer about facts, it's about the impression CCP give us. The feeling we get when we read their posts, Blogs and whatnot. And, atleast in my case, it's not the right impression. So even though i know, rationally, that the impression is wrong, i still had it. And i think alot of people fail to realise the former, and only go by their impression. Atleast, thats the impression i'm getting from reading this now 84-page thread.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2360]
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2361]
Avon I said Imperium.. KIA were in that,as RONA, so just relax, and you werent anywhere in that fight and you have NO clue, and I dont spin , we had fraps, and disclosed those.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:23:00 -
[2362]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 11/02/2007 18:19:55 Double.
Stay out of my sig, it's not funny. Thanks for proving my point. |
Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:24:00 -
[2363]
Originally by: Goran
...
The question you have to ask yourselves is: The moment before I heard about this, did I enjoy Eve?
The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
Yes, I did. However, the game HAS changed, whether you care to admit it or not. For that matter, so has CCP. And finally, so have we.
The assumption was that the game was a level playing field. It's not.
To the best of our knowledge, CCP wasn't a bunch of cheaters that covered up their wrongdoings.
And now we know better.
Originally by: Goran It really is time to put your trust in Eve, and CCP. If you can't do that because of one rotten apple, then leave. Don't kill it for those who wish to enjoy this game.
Trust is earned and when betrayed, doesn't respawn like chaining belt rats, sorry. Oh, and ONE rotten apple?? How many did you list in your original post? 4S, GM scorpion, this? Are there more?
Originally by: Goran The situation is not ideal, and I for one am not happy about the whole thing, but like the 4S incident, and the GM scorp, it will fade with time, and Eve will (hopefully) remain.
I agree, if it is swept under the rug and we all just accept the fact that there's cheating and unfair advantages and just get back grinding for no reason... at least until the next time. ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:28:00 -
[2364]
Hey Maya thanks for putting words in everyones mouth Im sure that would be allowed in a court of law, BTW are you going to enlighten us ?
Well were waiting
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:29:00 -
[2365]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
This is a clever attempt to get around the thrust of every recruitment/security check in EVE.
When you signup with *any corporation in any alliance* they will ask you what alt characters you play and what corporations they are in. If you respond by lieing to this and this response gains you access then you are committing fraud.
You also forgot when I mentioned that many corporations ask for your real name. I suppose that "any real name" is as good as any other? Or is lying about who you are to gain use to the property of others perfectly acceptable in your mind?
Quote:
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Given that you are one person operating multiple characters, if you are asked who those characters are and you lie about it in order to facilitate use of the property of another you are committing a crime (in some places) and/or are exposing yourself to civil liability.
It is entirely irrelevant whether you can say that there is one "main" character. All that matters is that you lie to a direct question.
Quote:
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
Pretexting does not apply where there are no property interests involved. You can lie to hell and back in game and no one will have suffered any injury because no one owns anything in EVE. The moment you use someone elses' website, someone elses' teamspeak server, someone elses' information that they *own* and do so only by virtue of having lied to them then you have are no longer in any "fictional world" you have entered the real one.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2366]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Avon I said Imperium.. KIA were in that,as RONA, so just relax, and you werent anywhere in that fight and you have NO clue, and I dont spin , we had fraps, and disclosed those.
Xirt, I appreciate your attempts to try and derail the thread. I'm sure BoB and CCP are most grateful.
However, I think that maybe the thread is crowded enough with quite legitimate discussion without trying to shoehorn your ego in to it too.
How about you get your own thread, and we can pop in if we get the time?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Valcari
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2367]
Sorry i am a new player to eve, in abotu 2 months now and i have just learned that bob bob was made up of the people that made the game, personally i lost alot of respect for this game beecause of this resent allogation, i thought is if you hide this much from us what else are you hiding, or "not telling us", this is a very unfair advantage in this game you guys have on nowing the ins and outs of the game, but thats not my worry my worry is that you take it upon your selves to abuse your power even more, and CHEAT, AND I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK you did it was cheating, and nothing less of it. you might be thinking why i am grouping everyone together and calling them YOU is bacuse its your responsibility to give a fair chance to everyplayer, next thing i know you could be gaining unfair skills and typing in codes to get certain items, just liek everyother half ass game. dont let your game become something like that, and dont lose respect from everyone.
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:31:00 -
[2368]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 17:28:41 vipeer,
You can keep posting but Avon can't... You complained when BoB didn't post, and when they do... You haven't bothered to read Avon's posts... You are accepting the word of a criminal hacker as gospel...
You're a Hackfleet shill.
Quote:
Sure Avon can post. Everyone who pays suscription is allowed to post but saying he's posting his views while he's actually trying to refute other people and belittle the issues at hand that is not voicing opinions anymoe but trying actively to convince people the sun is shining when in fact it's snowing.
I simply pointed out the fact BOD are usually all over any thred posted in CAOD but they are silent in this one. Odd don't you think
I read them but you haven't read my posts have you ;)
The hacker is correct as Hillmar the CEO of CCP pointed out in his blog and T20 admitted to. I and vast majority of EVE have little reason to believe that only one part of BOD forums is true and everything else is faked.
"Hackfleet shill" what's that? English is not my primary language sry Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:34:00 -
[2369]
Oh noes arent we full of ourselves Avon , but you are wrong and wont let go, so just stop trying to sugarcoat your inadequate statements
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Arnhelm Maas
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:36:00 -
[2370]
Edited by: Arnhelm Maas on 11/02/2007 18:33:11
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:36:00 -
[2371]
Baun,
No, you are not. I suggest you read up on this, because it's ridiculous that someone who claims to be a law student has so little idea about the topic. Your concept of the duty to respond honestly to random questions is ridiculous, and would ban the use of aliases.
If you want to have certaincy, you must have a contract. But then that forum, per the rules, cannot be used for Eve.
If you ask me my name and I say "Maya Rkell", I am not commiting a crime, as is your contention. Further, those websites and TS servers are NOT on contract (and this is deliberate), but on a limited condition of usage, so it is further irrelevant.
You are deliberately and wrongly trying to paint people as criminals. That IS a crime.
//Maya |
Daravel
Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:39:00 -
[2372]
To be honest, I don't see how any of you can be saying
"its happened, the damage is done, T20 is only human" etc...
If someone cheats in a FPS, they are kicked and banned. What if someone from Valve was found to be cheating on CSS and doing stuff for his clan?
The fact is, cheating occured, and cheating is not welcome in games. Cheats should be banned from the game.
Invasions will be met with hostility and flying marshmallows!
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:42:00 -
[2373]
Originally by: BigDave
Quote: People claiming this is somehow hidden really have no understanding of the forum structure.
Where is the article on Eve-O's front page? How is the casual customer to learn of this -- from the company, or from other, probably disgruntled, customers? "Understanding the forum structure" is all well and good once you KNOW that something has happened, but misses the point: bad news doesn't get better with time. CCP should be the first to greet their players with this troubling story -- instead, they begrudgingly admit wrongdoing and pronounce half-measures to correct it only to customers who have started digging for the facts. What is there to justify further trust?
To reinforce this point, when I got on eve/vent last night everyone in my corp was clueless. My corp isn't huge by any mean, but most of them are on the forums quite a bit.
I guess it's not hard to find if your looking, but it's also extremely easy to overlook (which is probably whats being hoped for).
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Mal Renolds
Caldari Team America World Cops
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:43:00 -
[2374]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tsurako
And we should trust anything you say, because?
I'm not asking you to. If you want to believe I am lying, nothing I will say will convince you otherwise.
CCP is in the same position.
So I was supposed to believe there where no Devs in Bob either
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me
All the paraniod people where right there isnt a tinfoil hat thats all crap
Game Devolpers have played to win for Bob this was proven by some hacker not disclosed by CCP or you'd be right back into proof or STFU mode
What else did this guy leak? what expliots ? How come "events" happen when Bob locks down EC-P8R ?
Now your all innocent
it was just one guy
There was no shooter in the grassy knoll
Weve been lied too the game has been manipulated and we get laughed at
This isnt a causual game cheating either is or isnt
Molle should be banned with the hacker,
And btw If the player Base in its rightous anger tears down Bob root and branch.........
Karma sucks you reap what you sow
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Edheler
Quintessential Continuum.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:44:00 -
[2375]
Twenty-five hundred odd posts, and not a single one trying to find a solution to the problem.
It is clear that CCP needs to regain the trust of its customers. CCP does not have much time to achieve this before everything becomes a moot point.
I can only think of one way for CCP to repair the trust of it's customers: An EVE community review board. There are many areas which should probably be within the authority of the board to review, but the details are a discussion best left for later. They have to be well known public members of the community and they have to have the ability to get CCP to investigate an incident. The reason I suggest this is because: it's patently clear that CCP can not or will not disclose to the whole community incidents that occur. This way CCP can disclose the problems to a limited subset of it's customers who can then help CCP gauge the response of the community to their solution. Especially in light of if the incident and solution were ever to come out at a later date.
It would have mitigated this situation if it had been in place: Problem discovered 7 months ago, CCP investigates, takes their findings and proposed solution to the review board, CCP can then decide to change or not change their decision based on the response. If the material comes out later, the review board steps in and outlines the pertinent and disclosable details and the review boards involvement in the decision for what action was taken by CCP. There would likely be little outrage so long as the actions of CCP were fair and just. (Does anyone honestly believe that the review board wouldn't have been up in arms if presented with the details as they are understood now? It is very likely that CCP would not have made the mistakes they did if they had this feedback.)
This also allows for a reasonable community-driven whistle-blowing ability if the review board believes that CCP is treating them as a rubber stamp. This is perhaps the most important aspect of making this solution believable to the community at large.
I hope the leadership of CCP is ready to explore some of the logical real-world consequences of their decisions on how they created their world. It is clear that over the next few years, how MMOs are run, managed and involve their customers is going to change quite a bit. It's probably best to be a leader in empowering your customers than to test their resolve of voting with their wallets.
Sincerely,
Edheler
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:44:00 -
[2376]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
I'm here at CCP's pleasure, and at my pleasure. If I do something wrong (wrong defined as what CCP doesn't like), they can kick me out. I don't even have to deserve being kicked out, because as I said in my first post on this thread, its CCP's game, their property, and I'm just a patron. They can do me like Kugutsumen.
I completely disagree. Ask yourself: what is EVE without the players? What is CCP without the income of all the suscribers?
So what should they do with their 'property'? It is worth nothing unless people consider it worth something. And in the past CCP did quite well to give us a nice product. The whole favourism stuff needs to be cleared and we deserve some more answers than 'senior staff was on holidays'.
Why took it many months to remove the BPOs after the cheating was discovered? And what about Sir Molle's post of the real life data? And why didn't tell us t20 what exactly happened - for example his motives?
Yes, it is weekend and the ccp people are humans as we all, I hope that we will get solid answers soon and not all that vague stuff.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:48:00 -
[2377]
Originally by: Baun While some may want to dissemble and try to act like everyone is outrage solely because this involves BoB, this is really not the case.
The primary problems are the way in which CCP has reacted to this. They did nothing until they were forced to do so, they have disclosed no information, they have continued to lie to us and they have not enforced their policies consistently.
Name another instance of cheating, other than the GM one, where CCP disclosed even as much information as they have right now.
Name one.
Much of the outrage is because it's BoB. If it were ASCN, this thread would be full of low blows stating that ASCN lost a war even while cheating. Instead they say ASCN lost because BoB cheated (not because BoB fielded more (skilled) pilots more often, or that ASCN wasn't a warmachine and BoB is).
You claim they did nothing. There is proof showing that you are wrong, you are either ignoring it on purpose or somehow missed it. This is something they dealt with (poorly) back in the summer.
The only way for CCP to get rid of t20 without being destroyed in a courtroom is for him to resign, if he doesn't, then they would have to find an unrelated matter to fire him. A second punishment for the same thing is not something CCP can do.
Now anyone who ever thinks that something that went wrong was a plot against them, feel they were right. People who refuse to accept they lost due to their faults, or that they weren't the only ones lagging in a fight, are crying and screaming. If t20 were found to be in a smaller group, like CVA, Mordu's Angels, or even ISS, the screaming wouldn't be nearly as bad (well in the case of ISS it might be).
I bet if it came out instead that t20 gave his empire carebear char these BPOs to sell the stuff in Jita, hardly anyone would care. Hell people would probably be thanking him instead for causing more t2 competition on the market.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:49:00 -
[2378]
Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:49:00 -
[2379]
Originally by: Daravel To be honest, I don't see how any of you can be saying
"its happened, the damage is done, T20 is only human" etc...
If someone cheats in a FPS, they are kicked and banned. What if someone from Valve was found to be cheating on CSS and doing stuff for his clan?
The fact is, cheating occured, and cheating is not welcome in games. Cheats should be banned from the game.
I feel the burning need to qote this for truth.
The fact of the matter is, cheats should be banned from playing. I have a friend who cheated on Counter-Strike; he was given a life-time bacn on both his IP and CD Key.
If a player of EVE were to hack the EVE database and spawn themselves T2 BPOs, what do you think would happen? I reckon they'd be perma-banned quicker than you can say "OMGWTFBQ". I wouldn't be surprised if CCP called the police and had them dragged into court on hacking charges.
The fact that an actual staff member at CCP cheated, and was NOT fired, was NOT banned from playing the game, was NOT threatened with real legal consequences, and did NOT even have their cheating reversed (only now, after 6 months, are the BPOS being returned).........its unbelievable. Forgiveness? CCP, you better get earning, because trust is diicult to get back....... -----------------------------------------------
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:50:00 -
[2380]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Baun,
No, you are not. I suggest you read up on this, because it's ridiculous that someone who claims to be a law student has so little idea about the topic. Your concept of the duty to respond honestly to random questions is ridiculous, and would ban the use of aliases
You have no right to use someone elses' website unless they give you that right. You have no right to use someone else's teamspeak server unless they give you that right.
A person may choose to require certain information before giving anyone those rights. If they require that information then if you make use of those rights granted to you must respond truthfully. You induce their reliance by giving them false information where they have expressed a desire for true information. Everywhere this is civilly actionable and in some places it is a crime.
You would be well served to not talk out the ass about something you have absolutely no idea about.
Quote:
If you want to have certaincy, you must have a contract. But then that forum, per the rules, cannot be used for Eve.
Let me repeat again about how you shouldn't talk out of your own ass.
The EULA states: "You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website."
An out of game website owned and operated by a real person is not part of the Eve Online game world and it is not part of the Eve Online website.
I can just as easily require certain information for viewing my personal webpage about pogs as I can require information for viewing my personal webpage in which other people similiarly granted access talk about EVE and their plans in it.
Quote:
If you ask me my name and I say "Maya Rkell", I am not commiting a crime, as is your contention.
If you think that is my contention you are either retarded or disingenuous.
What is being done is that people ask a serious of factual questions in order to ascertain whether they wish to give you access to their personal property. If you lie to those questions you have induced their reliance on your lieing and have committed fraud. You have very few duties to tell anyone anything in the abstract, but we are not working with the abstract.
Quote:
Further, those websites and TS servers are NOT on contract (and this is deliberate), but on a limited condition of usage, so it is further irrelevant.
There is good reason why I am talking in terms of inducing reliance through fraud and not in terms of breach of contract. Your hilarious assumption is that the only way in which any false information could be actionable is if it implicates a contract. This is incorrect.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:52:00 -
[2381]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:51:36
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
The only way in which this can be a contract situation is if there is consideration involved.
Unless you can fashion an argument whereby consideration is the forebearance of your right to dissimenate information to which you are giving access you are going to have a tought time making that argument.
That said, people like Maya who know nothing about this think that contracts are the only font of liability and this is false.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Ashis
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:54:00 -
[2382]
This issue shouldn't die. There is too much, and CCP has done too little.
1) Unban Kugutsumen. He hasn't made running Eve more expenseive, T20 has - and others on the Dev team that are guilty for this. If you ban Kugutsmen ban them as well.
2) Although no doubt everthing on Kugustumen's website isn't accurate, to say it is all unfounded is also foolish.
CCP needs to hold nothing sacred and make sweeping changes. Afterall, as they are well aware, "Those that do not adapt become victims of Evolution."
Chin up CCP - do the right thing, do it with integrity, do it with honour, and you may just come out the other side of this with more respect. Now is your time to shine... but at this point here all I see is that CCP has become "The Man." ... go back to your roots. Be honest. Take the lumps you deserve, and rebuild. So far all I see is corporate double talk and minimum answers aimed to diffuse.
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Stoli Vodka
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:57:00 -
[2383]
I enjoy hearing CCP and friends talk about fair punishment for t20. Fair!? Did t20 worry about fairness. Did he give a second thought as to if it was fair to cheat every other eve player of a fair game. There is no way to undo what he did, BoD is forever seen in distrust whether it is warrented or not same goes for CCP itself, the balance has been artifically changed and is impossible to know how that effected BoD their enemies and their friends. I am just glad we are worried about whats fair for a cheating liar that when put in a postion of power abused it. Look for my job application I need a few BPOs.
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Natalie Scarlett
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:01:00 -
[2384]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
/sign
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:01:00 -
[2385]
It wouldnt actually be tough at all, since corporations are responsible for the actions of its employees. And if they are expressed and implied, and induces the community to agree through trust of said EULA .
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Ebedar
Gallente Primary Intelligence
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:04:00 -
[2386]
There are a few niggling inconsistencies that don't sit well with me and which only serve to make CCP's stance seem even more as though they refuse to deal with what has happened in a clean and transparent manner. At the heart of this are the spawned T2 BPOs and the discovery of unethical dev behaviour back in June/July. How much of what had happened was apparent back then?
As I see it, one of two scenarios seems likely. The first is that CCP found out that the BPOs had been created at the time of the first investigation and knowingly decided to leave them in game in RKK's possession. The second is that the BPO issue only came to light following the recent furore and that is why they were removed now.
If the first scenario is true - and I genuinely hope it isn't - then there has been a gross lack of competence in dealing with the issue and one has to wonder what motivated such behaviour. If the second is true, it has to be considered that the behaviour of the developer that was punished initially is separate from the behaviour with which we are now concerned. Resultantly, a separate punishment may be appropriate (which would have to take into account the fact that he did not volunteer this information during the first investigation). I would also question why such facts did not come to light during the initial investigation.
Insofar as the BPOs are concerned, I'm curious whether they count towards the total number of each BPO released, e.g. were (for example) 20 Sabre BPOs released in total (including the illegal one) or were 21 released because of the spawned one? If the former is true, then a section of players have been cheated out of legitimate chances to obtain said BPOs. If the latter is true, then RKK were given a distinct advantage not open to other corps (and one has to wonder how the presence of an extra T2 BPO went undetected as well).
As regards future conduct and regaining the trust of the player base, I think CCP need to thoroughly investigate the characters belonging to CCP employees and volunteers where those volunteers/employees have the ability to create or affect TQ game content. I would prefer for an independent body to do this, but if not then two parties of CCP employees would have to do and would also be expected to investigate one another (as well as conducting their own investigations separately).
I'm saddened that such things have happened and that CCP have dealt with them in this manner. Your conduct has not been above reproach, either in dealing with the matter or in communicating with the player base and key individuals who have brought such information to light.
I hope the future will be brighter than the dark days we have experienced recently. I hope CCP will realise that damage limitation and insincere apologies will not pacify a player base that trusted you to do the right thing from the outset.
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:05:00 -
[2387]
Originally by: Goran Well, isn't this nice?
Can't you see that it is you people that are killing Eve, not CCP, not BoB? You are willing to flush this game in to the sewers just to score a few points on an intardweb chat board?
Well done.
I bet K. is laughing his arse off.
He took payments from you suckers to reveal information. Easy ISK.
He tried to blackmail BoB to keep quiet. He failed.
He tried to blackmail CCP to keep quiet. He got banned.
What we have now is a dramabomb of epic proportions of his creation. You, by ranting at CCP and BoB, are carrying out his threats for him, you have become his pawns.
Poor sheep. Baaaaaaa.
You think your crusade is actually having results? All you have done is brought out in to the open something that happened months ago. It was dealt with then, and all this has changed nothing, and nor should it.
This thread is a perfect example of exactly why all breaches of the COD, TOS, and EULA should remain confidential. Making things public and transparent doesn't make thing better, just uglier.
Sure T20 should have been punished more harshly at the time, but he wasn't. Live with it. Move on.
Sure anyone who is proven to cheat should be punished. We just have to trust the petition system, because if we put the law in to our own hands we become what we distrust.
This isn't the first time that people in authority have been caught cheating (at least one other event made public, the GM scorp), and I doubt it would be the last. If I don't hear of any more then I am happy .. even if they occur and are dealt with internally
The question you have to ask yourselves is: The moment before I heard about this, did I enjoy Eve?
The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed.
The only difference is that the community has soured somewhat, and most of them don't even see it.
You are being played. You are carrying out (knowingly or not) the agenda of someone else.
Question is, do you want to kill the game you love in order to exact the threats of K., or do you want to work to save it.
The only thing here than needs immediate healing is the community, and that is something that we have to do for ourselves. Nothing CCP says can do it for us.
It really is time to put your trust in Eve, and CCP. If you can't do that because of one rotten apple, then leave. Don't kill it for those who wish to enjoy this game.
The situation is not ideal, and I for one am not happy about the whole thing, but like the 4S incident, and the GM scorp, it will fade with time, and Eve will (hopefully) remain.
Quite an old alt you got there 3 years 5 months and 4 days, who's your main then ?
Anyway I don't give 2 hoots about about K.... the ends don't justify the means, if he did wrong he should stay banned.
As for sheep well... I class sheep as a person who follows and does what hes told no matter what the consequences ... now that sounds like BoB's pets to me.
As for the demise of this game(if there is one in the near future) well only people I would blame are the ones cheating not the ones complaining and not the ones who uncovered the cheating.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:06:00 -
[2388]
so if i cheat, i won't get banned? nice to know
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Lady Ghoulia
Eternal-Darkness
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:06:00 -
[2389]
Originally by: Patch86 he was given a life-time bacn
I wish i had life-time bacn :(
Hunger solved
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:08:00 -
[2390]
Originally by: XirtamVotf It wouldnt actually be tough at all, since corporations are responsible for the actions of its employees. And if they are expressed and implied, and induces the community to agree through trust of said EULA .
When you mix contract and implied you are almost always talking about promissory estoppel (which is a contract like grounds for recovery that has to be with reliance).
Contracts require an objective manifestation of mutual assent. It is hard for things to be objective and simultaneously be implied. Either there is an objective manifestation or there is not.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:09:00 -
[2391]
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:11:00 -
[2392]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Damages are there and are significant with a class action. Im sure Whitewolf didnt know about this prior to getting involved, and CCP had a duty to disclose with them being an investor, and putting significant monies on the line, and now facing this.
I'm no class action expert, but I'd be very surprised if there would be "significant damages" arising out of this; good luck trying to find a lawyer to take this on a success fee basis. Even if you could, I say just let it rest--all you would succeed in doing is lining some lawyer's pocket.
Also, I don't know how you're sure this wasn't disclosed to WW, or that CCP had any kind of duty to disclose it? Unless CCP was very poorly advised, if CCP didn't disclose this it's probably because they didn't have a contractual obligation to do so...as I mentioned earlier, I don't see how anyone could have predicted at that time how this apparently minor issue would blow-up due to CCP's subsequent botch of the PR effort, which for all we know is being directed by WW rather than CCP.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
phillie blunt
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:11:00 -
[2393]
is sad that now I have more trust in a hacker than CCP...
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Nir
The Doldrums
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:15:00 -
[2394]
Originally by: Ashis This issue shouldn't die. There is too much, and CCP has done too little.
1) Unban Kugutsumen. He hasn't made running Eve more expenseive, T20 has - and others on the Dev team that are guilty for this. If you ban Kugutsmen ban them as well.
2) Although no doubt everthing on Kugustumen's website isn't accurate, to say it is all unfounded is also foolish.
CCP needs to hold nothing sacred and make sweeping changes. Afterall, as they are well aware, "Those that do not adapt become victims of Evolution."
Chin up CCP - do the right thing, do it with integrity, do it with honour, and you may just come out the other side of this with more respect. Now is your time to shine... but at this point here all I see is that CCP has become "The Man." ... go back to your roots. Be honest. Take the lumps you deserve, and rebuild. So far all I see is corporate double talk and minimum answers aimed to diffuse.
Kugu should stay banned, he isn't telling the full story on his website and he certainly isn't the victim in all of this. But if you're going to ban him in relation to real life threats and blackmail - then ban Molle and others who've burned their hands on this too. All the community wants out of this thing is equal justice.
But that has always been the problem for me with EVE. The rules only apply to certain people. And huge chunks of the EULA simply aren't inforced.. Also the GMs pass judgement by a set of rough guidelines instead of an actual ruleset.
This means that nobody really knows what is allowed and what isn't and petitions are a roll of the dice. What one person might get banned for, another one gets away with. What one person gets a ship refund for, another one gets nothing.
As for t20, CCP made a bad move and kept him on the payroll. The choice was made, its too late to go back on it. All they can do now is start with a clean slate and ban those who broke the rules.
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:15:00 -
[2395]
Im just a humble CS student. Since other people are clearly more familiar with the legal state of things, and if I happen to get into the security sphere it would probably be a good idea to have at least a passing familiarity, could some knowledgeable person please comment on the UK Computer Misuse Act, as it relates to the situation being debated?
Its significant as apart from being a wide-ranging and even draconian piece of legislation its been used as a model by other countries. From the wikipedia article it seems pretty worryingly clear cut: any form of unauthorized access, be it via social engineering, a brute force dictionary attack, DDOS, etc is treated the equally, if its "unauthorized" and in any way causes effort on the part of the system owner to have to deal with the situation then it seems one could end up spending a couple of years at Her Majesty's pleasure.
Its true some might argue that this is all revolving somewhat off topically around a game of Internet spaceships (however seriously we take it) and might toss about phrases like "counting angles on the head of a pin", "playing Internet lawyers", but I would be grateful none the less.
Thank you indeed for your time.
Eve Wiki|Eve Tribune|Scrapheap challenge|EveGeek |
Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:18:00 -
[2396]
Ok since cheating is ok in eve.. there is no debate about that. How about we make a jail in high sec for the cheaters :)... they still get to play eve but they have to sit in jail.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:20:00 -
[2397]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:21:09 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:19:44
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
In America and Iceland, they are only written. Britian has severe limits on contracts, while they can be in any media there is *no* implication and the problem is proving them if they are not written.
Baun,
There IS a permission. The one given by the owner for an Eve-related TS or forum. Otherwise, you could not put the forum there. You can ask for certain information, but without a contractual or financial relationship you have no recourse except to terminate that access if you were not given the correct data.
And you are using the wrong rules, of course. Section B of the EULA asserts CCP's rights to your character's identity. And demanding the personal information linked to it is thus a breach of CCP's rights in the matter, as it infringes the third parties EULA-asserted right to privacy. If you're a law student, you'll have access to that recent precident.
If you don't like the sweeping claim of rights CCP make (which is almost certainly unenforceable, but...) complain to them. Also, you are asserting a right to know information which do simply do not have a right to. Can I ask if you have, for example, informed the UK data protection registrar, since you are asserting that the Eve corperation is an organisation...
Your assumption is you have a right to certain forms of data, which is both incorrect and in many cases downright illegal in itself, especially for children. You cannot prove any loss, further, because losses in Eve are ZERO in the eyes of the law.
You sound like you're reading a 4-5 year old textbook on this, when there were basic assumptions made which have not held up in court.
Irrilian, the caselaw on this is important. There are norms which apply in many cases, most noteably in computer security, but also in the Eve communiuty. As much as Baun will deny it. Also, "unauthorised" is the key word - authorisation given on false details when no duty existed to give correct details is valid.
//Maya |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:29:00 -
[2398]
So what we have as facts here is the EULA expressed and written.
We have reliance of the EULA to be used equally,no one was immune under it.
Under no circumstance in any reality, would a court say that it is ok for a corporation to gain monetary gain, through deceit, with the things that have been evidenced here.
I dont think the player base would testify in court saying yes Ill pay to play even though there is cheating going on, and I have no say or control over the matter.
I wouldnt even be arguing this, if it werent for Maya and his ignorant views of the law.
Any student knows that the law is evolving and not stagnant and precedences are made on daily basis, through skillful arguments.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:30:00 -
[2399]
Originally by: Nir
Originally by: Ashis All the community wants out of this thing is equal justice.
Heh, clearly there is no equality in EVE.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:32:00 -
[2400]
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
He posted on the forums.
Rarely do actions on the forums get an in-game punishment.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Anatolius
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:32:00 -
[2401]
Originally by: Nils Bohr Pretexting is a crime in California. I have no idea whether hacking is against the law where K lives, nor whether pretexting is against the law where BoB's forums/TS spies live. But both can be considered "criminal activity."
Please stop already.
This is more INTARNET LOYERZ!!!!!!!!11111111 bull****, along the same lines of those warnings on public FTP servers insisting government workers can't connect to them, or that ever worthless "LOL ROMS U NEED 2 DELETE THEM AFTER 24 HOURS!" (Hi, you're still comitting copyright infringement.)
Pretexting?
You're talking about someone knowingly giving access to forums/TS to another party. In the context of a roleplaying game.
LOL ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
More like, "LOL! Have fun being laughed out of court."
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:37:00 -
[2402]
XirtamVotf, and your maximum loss in Eve is zero, in the law.
I await the filing of your charges against the spies in your corp with interest.
//Maya |
Zothike
RABBLE-RABBLE
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:38:00 -
[2403]
Edited by: Zothike on 11/02/2007 19:36:55 Edited by: Zothike on 11/02/2007 19:35:41 http://www.zothike.com/eve/iceberg.jpg
gimp lvl 0.05 ftw
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:43:00 -
[2404]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:36:23 vipeer, give it up. You said precisely that. And where are the leaders of MOST alliances? There's a reason for that y'know... they're ALL guilty, of course. ONE accusation made by the hacker was correct. ONE. This does not then follow that the rest are. That you chose to tinfoil hat is your business.
Now you're just being silly.
Why would leaders of all alliances feel the need to say they are not cheaters because nobody has yet to show us proof of other alliances receiving favouritism from CCP in one way or another. I would hope CCP will soon uncover the whole extent of the matter at hand so we can all go back to pew pew or whatever you like to do in EVE.
Problem is they did not disclose the facts we're discussing here and were actively denying them up until the point the whole proof was laid out for everyone to see. A person in the know who i cannot disclose here told me the recent posts from CCP are only a coverup. Two thousand and some people are calling CCP's bluff here alone.
Im afraid that EVE, the game that i like very much will die off because of CCP's inability to set a clear line on where games stop and business begins. Please. Boot the baddies now and regain the appearance of impartiallity you had in my eyes from my beginning in october 2004 all the way up to the time the war with BOD began when node crashed like 10 times a day and BOD logged in first to slaughter ASCN pilots logging back in but CCP turned a blind eye.
CCP please fix these problems please so we all can continue to enyoy this top notch game.
Levelled playing field is the highest ideal CCP should be aiming for. That's why all the new stuff is coming in, that's why all the fixes are made, that's why they have 200 people on staff. To provide a levelled playing field for ALL 150+ thousand of their paying customers. One bad employee can destroy what 200 have been working for very easily. I don't know what T20 does but i get a hint he's an artist of somekind. If he really is that good keep him on staff but not until he comes clean on all his dealings with BOD. I among other find it hard to belive he would risk his employement over a few T2 BPOs. There surely is sometihng more to it. If he did do only that then he really is a dumbass and deserves to get the boot. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Hauler McTote
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:46:00 -
[2405]
Quote: Where is the article on Eve-O's front page? How is the casual customer to learn of this -- from the company, or from other, probably disgruntled, customers? "Understanding the forum structure" is all well and good once you KNOW that something has happened, but misses the point: bad news doesn't get better with time. CCP should be the first to greet their players with this troubling story -- instead, they begrudgingly admit wrongdoing and pronounce half-measures to correct it only to customers who have started digging for the facts. What is there to justify further trust?
I suppose people could fly around in Empire and link this thread in each systems Local if they wanted to... |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:46:00 -
[2406]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Much of the outrage is because it's BoB.
I agree totally.
That's why you don't act like an arsehat that makes everyone sick, and relish it, like BoB does. Because when something like this comes up, you have the goodwill of the players to want to see the thing done fairly, with restraint, and forgiveness.
There has been no heartfelt apology from BOB, and even if they give one, the players here wouldn't believe it was heartfelt anyway, because of all the inflamatory crap over the years.
Machiavelli once said that, "the prince should nonetheless make himself feared in such a mode that if he does not acquire love, he escames hatred, because being feared and not being hated can go together very well."
BOB isn't just feared, it is hated by many, and if they aren't hated by CCP, they certainly aren't looked at as warmly after all of this. Therefore, is it any suprise that the majority here want the book thrown at BOB? Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:47:00 -
[2407]
Poor poor maya always sidestepping and misconstruing, you still havent enlightened us , is that coming ?
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:49:00 -
[2408]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
He posted on the forums.
Rarely do actions on the forums get an in-game punishment.
This is what Kugutsumen was banned for:
TOS 16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
18. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
Note there is no mention of hacking. If you want to read more check his site, that should be enough to prove my point.
Not saying he was right in whatever he did, but either he should come back or SirMolle (and all his accounts) should be banned.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Natalie Scarlett
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:49:00 -
[2409]
Originally by: Patch86 ....
The fact that an actual staff member at CCP cheated, and was NOT fired, was NOT banned from playing the game, was NOT threatened with real legal consequences, and did NOT even have their cheating reversed (only now, after 6 months, are the BPOS being returned).........its unbelievable. Forgiveness? CCP, you better get earning, because trust is diicult to get back.......
Its hard to believe, dont you think?
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:51:00 -
[2410]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:50:06 Xirtam, try using logic and arguments rather than vague handwaving.
vipeer, no, I'm being practical.
They can't say they don't cheat because they DO. Don't try and tinsel with favouratism, them breaking the EULA is the relevant point there.
"actively denying them"
Not saying anything is not a denial, as much as certain US lawyers try and prove otherwise.
"A person in the know who i cannot disclose here "
You claim special knowledge, right, that only you can (stop forrest fires!) know the truth and that everything would be doubleplus good if things were done as you say. Pull the other one! You're calling for transparency while not being transparent.
A serious question... are Hackfleet paying their shills these days?
"There surely is sometihng more to it."
The evidence from MMO's from Ultima Online on is that employees do indeed risk their jobs for relatively trivial things. This is not unexpected, all that IS to me in this is that CCP have taken this long to have a dedicated internal affairs department.
Slash Harnet, because he didn't hack CCP's servers, right. That dosn't make the hacking he did any less illegal, of course.
Kalavoz, you can't even post your own email address here - I was warned for that several years ago.
//Maya |
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Kalavoz
Caldari Calista Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:52:00 -
[2411]
Everything done by T20 can be forgiven (yet not forgotten) in my mind; his star is low in the CCP office, and he will be watched closely for future misconduct.
Everything that has happened, my faith in CCP is enough to believe that they will prevent this from happening again.
However, what will decide for me if my subscription continues towards CCP is this - CCP, please inform me what measures you will take to prevent a players real life information from being posted on this board?
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Mikael Deco
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:54:00 -
[2412]
Originally by: Ebedar (snip)
Insofar as the BPOs are concerned, I'm curious whether they count towards the total number of each BPO released, e.g. were (for example) 20 Sabre BPOs released in total (including the illegal one) or were 21 released because of the spawned one? If the former is true, then a section of players have been cheated out of legitimate chances to obtain said BPOs. If the latter is true, then RKK were given a distinct advantage not open to other corps (and one has to wonder how the presence of an extra T2 BPO went undetected as well).
I am also very interested in this answer as well. Did t20 spawn an extra BPO or did he steal it from the lottery pool. If he spawned an extra why was there no red flags raised? And if he stole it from the lottery pool i want to be reimbursed for the money i paid CCP for my subscription during the time it took to train up to be able to use 5 agents and the mission grinding i spent to get the lvl 4 agents to start my research. I want reimbursment because it wasn't on fair grounds.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:55:00 -
[2413]
you can't pervent a hacker -- people hacks banks with highest security anyhow
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:57:00 -
[2414]
Quoting Maya And you are using the wrong rules, of course. Section B of the EULA asserts CCP's rights to your character's identity. And demanding the personal information linked to it is thus a breach of CCP's rights in the matter, as it infringes the third parties EULA-asserted right to privacy. If you're a law student, you'll have access to that recent precident.
Oh boy you just said a mouthful,so Sir molle gets away with it, knug bets banned, wow thats fair
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:57:00 -
[2415]
You'd think CCP would want to fix this issue so:
A) Their playerbase wouldn't hate them
and
B) So Kugutsumen doesn't hack THEIR system and spill the dirt on all THEIR logs.
Jesus, can you imagine the pandemonium if we actually got ahold of ALL the info going down there in Iceland?
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XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:02:00 -
[2416]
I guess maya just defeated himself, with handwaving and logic ?
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:04:00 -
[2417]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
... I'd laugh harder if they banned all of Goonfleet for the client side hack.
Yeah, that is another huge issue that people keep forgetting about.
Not completely related, but something should be done.
/Especially if I'll get the stuff back a goon blew up
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:08:00 -
[2418]
Edited by: XirtamVotf on 11/02/2007 20:07:13 You would be fun to sit across in courtroom with a jury, the EULA, I NEVER said anythign about that "objection your honor defense counsel is not a telepath " His Honor "Objection sustained' defense counsel im warning you to tread carefully on this ground.
My personal observation of the EULA being enforced was the question OBIMAYA
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:11:00 -
[2419]
Understandably this debate is somewhat heated, it does revolve around something we all care about greatly, something we devote so much of our energies on whatever our current in game allegiances.
Some one mentioned Truth and Reconciliation earlier, I do think such might be a model for how to move forward. While some might find some satisfaction in justice and restitution for past wrongs, enacting such would be practically impossible unless everyone really wants to roll back the server? Personally I feel it would be far better to be open, honest and upfront about what has occurred and to clearly set forth policies and measures so it can not occur again. Certainly an internal investigations unit could be an a posteriori (after the fact) element, but what I feel is key would be taking steps to regain and rebuild the trust of the player base in the systems and policies of the game, to reforge the bond between player, volunteer, GM, and developer with a priori (before the fact) measures. That is, rather than relying upon a system to deal with wrong after it has occured, to put in place systems that as far as possible stop it occurring in the first place, to help keep people honest as it were.
I'm a veteran of Horizons, which many people may not have heard of with good reason as sadly its crashed and burned; Ive seen corruption, abuse, backstabbing and manipulation at its worst as a company flailed about trying to do damage control from crisis to crisis; I dearly do not want to watch CCP start down that path. Ill fight tooth and claw to try to encourage CCP do what I feel is the difficult right thing to do to address the root cause of this situation, but if they wont Ill regretfully walk away. Which is something I really dont want to do because Eve is the most intriguing and interesting game Ive ever played and CCP a company I respect.
Eve Wiki|Eve Tribune|Scrapheap challenge|EveGeek |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:11:00 -
[2420]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 20:09:18
Originally by: XirtamVotf You would be fun to sit across in courtroom with a jury, the EULA, I NEVER said anythign about that "objection your honor defense counsel is not a telepath " His Honor "Objection sustained' defense counsel im warning you to tread carefully on this ground.
Funny, I never mentioned telepathy. It'd help if you read my posts.
Irrilian, Horizons was like that from practically the day it was announced. It'd take a LOT more to send CCP down to anything LIKE their level.
//Maya |
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JorjaFox
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:12:00 -
[2421]
I've read "On Recent Allegations" and find it a little suspicious.
Are we to belive that this self proclaimed BPO theif has entered into and successfully completed a full investigation, to come to the absolutely accurate conclusion that the bulletted items in the list are NOT true except for his?
This is doubtful, and because of its presence i'm inclined to believe it may be trying to divert suspicion from himself or others.
..And only a handful of BPOs? has CCP verified this is the extent of it? Hard to belive that if one was inclined to break the rules to steal only a small handful of items?
I am not convinced. I do not feel assured that CCP actually does take cheating as seriously as they say. Either that, or they lack the staff and/or tools do do a proper investigation. OR maybe they are not telling us everything?
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zakatai
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:13:00 -
[2422]
So what has happened to T20? Sad to see what has happened. Stupid mistake.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:16:00 -
[2423]
Originally by: zakatai So what has happened to T20? Sad to see what has happened. Stupid mistake.
No one is completely sure, but we know he won't be fired.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:19:00 -
[2424]
The reference and quote had nothing to do with fair, you were speculating that it had inferrances of that on your own, the EULA was rather clear, the fair part came in of my own personal view of the matter of it being enforced across the board, same for KNUG as for Sir molle, they acted upon Knug instantly, they deleted Sir Molles threat and statements from view.
He is still playing the game, and posting Tick Tock messages, heh wonder if its for himself at this point.
I love lawyers who use the defense of who said its fair ? you seem to fall into that category
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:21:00 -
[2425]
Edited by: Athelas Loraiel on 11/02/2007 20:20:50 can Kieron reply Why did bob in delve get so many mmore plexes then the others? (plexes that are good, 6/10 and better)
ooh yes, eve search has uncensored duplicates of posdts made on eve-o, so if you wanna see something that was removed, check there. --------------
On the lookout for /restricted word that means ppl who work on the game/ in BOD disguise. |
Gyny
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:27:00 -
[2426]
I just canceled my account.
Later.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:27:00 -
[2427]
Originally by: Nim9i5 so if i cheat, i won't get banned? nice to know
Depends. Which alliance are you in?
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Megadon
Caldari Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:30:00 -
[2428]
Thats about the stupidest boneheaded thing someone could do t20.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:32:00 -
[2429]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:34:23 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:21:09 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:19:44
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
In America and Iceland, they are only written.
I stopped reading right there. If you believe that all U.S. contracts need to be in writing, you know nothing about the law.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:32:00 -
[2430]
Originally by: Gyny I just canceled my account.
Later.
Can I have your stuff. I promise to give it to charity if I quit too
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
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Damon Ra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:33:00 -
[2431]
Edited by: Damon Ra on 11/02/2007 20:30:32
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
Simple.
CCP was on thr ropes already from a manpower perspective last summer, and couldn't afford to lose one of their key Devs and.or create this kind of player response. There was an upcoming merjer and the China server, and Dragon code were all just coming together. Far easier and cheaper to sweep it under the mat and hope no one found out.
Now here we are... |
Executor Shiro
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:43:00 -
[2432]
Originally by: Damon Ra
CCP was on thr ropes already from a manpower perspective last summer, and couldn't afford to lose one of their key Devs and.or create this kind of player response. There was an upcoming merjer and the China server, and Dragon code were all just coming together. Far easier and cheaper to sweep it under the mat and hope no one found out.
Now here we are...
So, six month rollback time?
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:45:00 -
[2433]
Originally by: Damon Ra Edited by: Damon Ra on 11/02/2007 20:30:32
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One last question, before i give this thread a rest.
Originally by: Hellmar As of the beginning of January this year, we have been building up a special institution within our company similar to the Internal Affairs divisions of law enforcement agencies.
You found out about a Dev cheating, abusing game mechanics for his own advantage in July last year, yet not acted untill January this year?
Why?
Simple.
CCP was on thr ropes already from a manpower perspective last summer, and couldn't afford to lose one of their key Devs and.or create this kind of player response. There was an upcoming merjer and the China server, and Dragon code were all just coming together. Far easier and cheaper to sweep it under the mat and hope no one found out.
Now here we are...
Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
--
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:45:00 -
[2434]
Originally by: Executor Shiro
Originally by: Damon Ra
CCP was on thr ropes already from a manpower perspective last summer, and couldn't afford to lose one of their key Devs and.or create this kind of player response. There was an upcoming merjer and the China server, and Dragon code were all just coming together. Far easier and cheaper to sweep it under the mat and hope no one found out.
Now here we are...
So, six month rollback time?
Not gonna happen. The game would be all kinds of crazy if it was back in rmr.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:46:00 -
[2435]
Originally by: Athelas Loraiel Edited by: Athelas Loraiel on 11/02/2007 20:20:50 can Kieron reply Why did bob in delve get so many mmore plexes then the others? (plexes that are good, 6/10 and better)
Because they took over and now control that territory? Afaik each region of 0.0 have certain resorces others do not have to one degree or another so it encourages exspansion of territory.. Or are you implying they were spawned there after BoB was in control?
Want to run them? Take 'em back..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Hindgrinder Jr
Minmatar Eve Game Card Co
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:47:00 -
[2436]
*sigh* still no official response to all this outcry. I don't want to see this game die. It's too bloody good. Like most of you, i've been thinking alot about this over the last couple days and really hope CCP steps up to the plate and figures out a way to make it right.
Thoughts on partial solutions:
The Devs Gotta Play:
Scenario #1 Devs play but only as flagged and highly important characters - ie make tomB the amarr emperor and t20 the galente president. Simple rules - they can only fight each other. Spawn all the t1 u want for players to participate in these wars or whatever. Attack 0.0 alliances only with mutual consent.
Scenario #2 Sell the game to another better managed MMO company, shard the server, retire all devs and pay them to play the game as "consultants" with no tools or backend permissions. This game would be much bigger and more profitable if sharded with a renewed marketing campaign. At the end of the day it's still about $ for CCP. Tinfoil hats and a "consentual-only pvp" shard ft$w?
Yes yes i know..."Eve is a pvp game11!!11one!!" - Yes yes i know..."Eve is awsome because no shards!!" -
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!)
This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
TO: xirtam - good job helping to bring this to light but please bro, it's now your responsibility to be a big part of the solution. Show us some of that leadership and help keep as many players as we can.
CH
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:48:00 -
[2437]
Edited by: Slash Harnet on 11/02/2007 20:48:18
Originally by: Helox Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
It took him less than a month to use his new powers. LoL, that kinda makes this better for me. Hopefully it's been a good learning experience for him.
Still not saying what he did was right, but it's better than a seasoned dev doing it (plus it proves he couldn't have been influencing bob before that time).
/Edit: I guess he could have been helping their number one PVPers before that (read forum warriors).
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Cyrus Ageis
Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:52:00 -
[2438]
Originally by: Helox
Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
Loved that link! Here's my favorite part....
"...the past two months I've put myself down to adding long-missing/broken features/bugs and adding them as I see fit." -T20
Man, if THAT isn't scarry.
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MuvrOv
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:53:00 -
[2439]
I still haven't heard any official responses to the following: 1) Why is CCP selectively enforcing the EULA? 2) Why did CCP allow the BPOs to remain in-game for 8 months after they knew they were provided by a dev?
Until these points are addressed officially, CCP will be perceived to be perpetuating a cover-up and continuing to engage in favoritism.
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:56:00 -
[2440]
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr *sigh* still no official response to all this outcry. I don't want to see this game die. It's too bloody good. Like most of you, i've been thinking alot about this over the last couple days and really hope CCP steps up to the plate and figures out a way to make it right.
Thoughts on partial solutions:
The Devs Gotta Play:
Scenario #1 Devs play but only as flagged and highly important characters - ie make tomB the amarr emperor and t20 the galente president. Simple rules - they can only fight each other. Spawn all the t1 u want for players to participate in these wars or whatever. Attack 0.0 alliances only with mutual consent.
Scenario #2 Sell the game to another better managed MMO company, shard the server, retire all devs and pay them to play the game as "consultants" with no tools or backend permissions. This game would be much bigger and more profitable if sharded with a renewed marketing campaign. At the end of the day it's still about $ for CCP. Tinfoil hats and a "consentual-only pvp" shard ft$w?
Yes yes i know..."Eve is a pvp game11!!11one!!" - Yes yes i know..."Eve is awsome because no shards!!" -
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!)
This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
TO: xirtam - good job helping to bring this to light but please bro, it's now your responsibility to be a big part of the solution. Show us some of that leadership and help keep as many players as we can.
CH
Scenario 3:
1. Discharge from employment all devs and GM's (better safe than sorry). 2. FIX the f;ing lag! That should be the ONLY concern of CCP. After people can play the game, then new content might enhance the game, and by then, maybe outsource any devs and gm's, since the CCP staff do not have the balls to fire dirty dev's/gms because they are too friendly with them.
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:01:00 -
[2441]
Originally by: XirtamVotf
Its in CCPs ballpark now, to make things right, the player based is miffed and I cant stop that
2,611 posts and counting - and - its still only the the weekend.
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Hauler McTote
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:03:00 -
[2442]
Quote: The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here. Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency -Hilmar
Thats part of the CEO's take on all this.
My questions to him and the rest of CCP is just this:
You will always play the game you say, do you still think it's a good idea for Devs and other CCP employees to be in game shaking Corps and Alliances, particularly command positions? Do you not see the potential(and proven) risk of misconduct? Does no-one see the subsequent doubt among the playerbase regarding a so-called level playing field? |
Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:04:00 -
[2443]
Originally by: Lucre
Frankly though, t20's cheating doesn't worry me 1/10th as much as the cover-up we've seen and are seeing since. One rotten apple can happen. But when the whole company starts BSing us over it like we've seen ("oh, all the sharing of cyno accounts must have happened after he left") that is what needs to be fixed.
What I want from t20 is some believable explanation of why if he chose to cheat like that, why it was for such an odd mix of bpo's. And a total disclosure from t20 and CCP of everything else iffy that went on with devs in BoB or elsewhere - now - because if anything else comes out other than by CCP disclosure we will know for certain that we will never be able to trust them again.
Except for two points... - I don't care much for reasoning behind the odd mix of BPO (prolly just to make it look less conspicuous
- The cyno-net is just a consequence of a rule that is nonsensical, unenforcable and generally just detrimental to both gameplay and the credibility of the ruleset
...the above quote sums up my views, and I suspect that of many of us here.
It is not a moral issue, it's a work ethics issue: cheating is not binary 'bad' (scamming is perfectly fine in the context of the game, for ex), it's ethically wrong and counterproductive because it hurts the defining elements of the game when cheating and deceit are the fact of those supposed to uphold 'the law'.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:07:00 -
[2444]
Originally by: Irrilian
Originally by: Maya Rkell I'd laugh if Molle got banned. I'd laugh harder if they banned all of Goonfleet for the client side hack.
As this has been brought up a few times...
Its worth considering why such a client mod was "needed".
No, it is not. There are no excuses for hacking the client.
"today we have standings in local"
Yes, and why? Because there was no good way to detect the hack*, so CCP had to do something about it. Putting in standings in local for everyone was the only good soloution.
(*Because portrait generation is video-card dependent, you can't check hashes etc.!)
//Maya |
Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:10:00 -
[2445]
already a couple of years ago T20 was a local resident on atuks TS. he has been helping them and feeding them information since way back. atuk is now reformed as dice and is a member of bob and T20's characters were in RKK.
do ppl follow so far?
how about this then. who from CCP organizes the tournaments? ill let you figure out his name at CCP yourself but its the guy who just happens to be vegeta in TAOSP who has slipped his tongue more then once about his activities in eve on these very forums. photos from past fanfests where vegeta snapped looks ooh so very much like that Dev who claimed that it was his third fanfest but his first as a Dev. how much did he "assist" bob during all the time bob existed?
how about that CCP actually dont try and hide 99.99999% of the actual facts and start coming clean or pay everyone back the money they have paid in subscriptions for 3years time where they thought this was a game with fair play and not a game where the Developers greased the palms of their friends while screwing over the people who payed their paychecks for 3 years.
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:11:00 -
[2446]
hey Maya quote from you bud
Since when is fairness a principle enshrined in the EULA? Oh, it's not.
I ask if your a telepath, on what the EULA stands for in that post, it was expressed, nothing at all in your quote from the EULA had any thing in about if it was fair, you said "its not: correct?
So either the EULA told you it wasnt fair and you need a psychiatrist, or your a telepath and can communicate with EULA... which one is it?
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:15:00 -
[2447]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Yes, and why? Because there was no good way to detect the hack*, so CCP had to do something about it. Putting in standings in local for everyone was the only good soloution.
(*Because portrait generation is video-card dependent, you can't check hashes etc.!)
Equally it could be argued that CCP recognized the need for such information and thus made the local standings change so that we all could benefit from it.
Perhaps a mix of both? Perhaps CCP should speak out on their reasoning behind this.
Eve Wiki|Eve Tribune|Scrapheap challenge|EveGeek |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:15:00 -
[2448]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
There IS a permission. The one given by the owner for an Eve-related TS or forum. Otherwise, you could not put the forum there. You can ask for certain information, but without a contractual or financial relationship you have no recourse except to terminate that access if you were not given the correct data.
Here is where your ignorance shines through.
This is NOT TRUE. If someone's misrepresentation induces someone else's reasonable reliance then that person has a basis for civil action. Whether or not it is a crime is wholly a statutory matter. It is a crime in some places and it is not a crime in other places. Whether it is a crime that would actually be prosecuted in any place is an entirely different matter.
Quote:
If you're a law student, you'll have access to that recent precident.
What precedent concerning what?
Quote:
since you are asserting that the Eve corperation is an organisation...
What the hell are you talking about?
Forums are located on servers that are actually, as in in real reality, owned by someone. Teamspeak is the same. There are very real property rights involved that has nothing to do with EVE.
Quote:
Your assumption is you have a right to certain forms of data, which is both incorrect and in many cases downright illegal in itself, especially for children.
If I pay for a TS server I have the absolute right to control who uses it. There is no argument about this.
Whether or not you are a minor is only incidental (and usually irrelevant) and completely beside the point.
Quote:
You cannot prove any loss, further, because losses in Eve are ZERO in the eyes of the law.
You can prove that they deprived you of the use of an asset or they misappropriated personal information. Difficulty in providing remedy does not speak to the nuderlying legality of the conduct it just speaks to the fact that the conduct involves a game instead of something more serious.
Quote:
You sound like you're reading a 4-5 year old textbook on this, when there were basic assumptions made which have not held up in court.
And you sound like you have not the first clue about any of this. You are throwing your arms up in the air screaming about the evils of hacking and simultaneously trying to defend similiarly illegal conduct on the grounds that the information involved in each case is worthless. Those positions are inconsistent.
Quote:
Also, "unauthorised" is the key word - authorisation given on false details when no duty existed to give correct details is valid.
You are very confused. You assume that because there is no legal duty, in an absolute sense, to tell the truth that whether you tell the truth in any particular context is irrelevant.
This is not the case. Misrepresentation inducing reasonable reliance is alone actionable. Misreprsentation for the purposes of misappropriating someone else's property might even be a crime. Simply because you have no sense of anything legal outside of some vague notion that a contract "provides assurance" does not mean that these things do not actually exist.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Red Ochre
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:16:00 -
[2449]
deff is way more to this. and what a good laugh the devs must be having at being caught for the first time.
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:16:00 -
[2450]
WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:16:00 -
[2451]
Xirtam,
Now apparently you cannot bother to read your OWN posts - you referenced fairness, not me. Hint, " is shift+2. Also, posts can have seperate parts addressing seperate points!
...
Why bother.
Xendie, proof plz.
//Maya |
Le Pecarosh
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:19:00 -
[2452]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Irrilian
Originally by: Maya Rkell I'd laugh if Molle got banned. I'd laugh harder if they banned all of Goonfleet for the client side hack.
As this has been brought up a few times...
Its worth considering why such a client mod was "needed".
No, it is not. There are no excuses for hacking the client.
"today we have standings in local"
Ok, can CCP then give an answer to another simple question:
Was "standings in LOCAL" feature implemented in order to "level the playing field with Goons", or because hundreds/thousands of people requested it?
If it's done because of Goons' hack, then... it shows how much us 'mortals' (and our wishes) mean to CCP.
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Le Pecarosh
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:21:00 -
[2453]
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
It doesn't matter anymore. Even if they ban him, he has (or 'had') advanced notice, so he'll move all the assest to another char. Unlike some other people who got banned without any notice... |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:22:00 -
[2454]
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
It doesn't matter anymore. Even if they ban him, he has (or 'had') advanced notice, so he'll move all the assest to another char. Unlike some other people who got banned without any notice...
While this advanced notice could allow him to give up all the assets to the corporation, if they are following K's precedent they will have to ban all of his accounts, not just the one he posted with.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:22:00 -
[2455]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Xirtam,
Now apparently you cannot bother to read your OWN posts - you referenced fairness, not me. Hint, " is shift+2. Also, posts can have seperate parts addressing seperate points!
...
Why bother.
Xendie, proof plz.
Maya even i think you sound weird now, did you sell your account to Dianabolic for RL money?
as foor proof, go dig enough and you will see that Vegeta was at 2 fanfests and the Dev in question was at the latest. also vegeta snapped on the 2 fanfests he was on is extremely similar to the Dev that only was at the last one. also you can dig up most of his posts on this forum and find the bloopers he done and the hints he dropped himself. he lost abit of weight between the last time he went as vegeta and the latest fanfest as a dev but the photos are unmistakenly the same guy.
do some research yourself as i dont intend to drop his name here but i do encourage everyone to do some research. im sure it beats your ramblings that you are involved in atm because you make no sense at all maya.
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:25:00 -
[2456]
No maya you responded That the EULA was NOT fair you dolt, I want references that either you speak with the EULA, or where you drew your statemnet from based on fact that it isnt fair.
again I would love to sit across a table from you,and at end are you going to enlighten us in this century or are you going to sidestep somemore?
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:26:00 -
[2457]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:50:06 Xirtam, try using logic and arguments rather than vague handwaving.
vipeer, no, I'm being practical.
They can't say they don't cheat because they DO. Don't try and tinsel with favouratism, them breaking the EULA is the relevant point there.
"actively denying them"
Not saying anything is not a denial, as much as certain US lawyers try and prove otherwise.
"A person in the know who i cannot disclose here "
You claim special knowledge, right, that only you can (stop forrest fires!) know the truth and that everything would be doubleplus good if things were done as you say. Pull the other one! You're calling for transparency while not being transparent.
A serious question... are Hackfleet paying their shills these days?
"There surely is sometihng more to it."
The evidence from MMO's from Ultima Online on is that employees do indeed risk their jobs for relatively trivial things. This is not unexpected, all that IS to me in this is that CCP have taken this long to have a dedicated internal affairs department.
Good tactic with taking out parts of the post out of the context and tearing them apart
Everyone posting allegations of CCP&BOD being in cahoots had their threads locked and deleted. BOD members ridiculed and personally insulted everyone including me who dared posting about their wrongdoings.
Look what happened to Kugutsumen for spilling the beans. I like EVE too much to step into a trap so i can get banned by the book. Molle tried to lure me into that one but failed so what makes you think you will sucdeed?
I love EVE but seeing so much "things" going on an CCP giving a blind eye to all the issues laid out it makes me wonder if i should start looking for a new MMO because EVE's subscriptions are maybe about to implode due to the sad fact the playing field is far from being levelled. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:28:00 -
[2458]
btw.. does anyone really think it was a coincidence that the alliance that now is named bob called themselves CCP at first?
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:28:00 -
[2459]
It amazes me that the "proof" card still gets played. When it it shown that one is untrustworthy the burden of proof transfers to that party, and CCP and the higher officers of BoB (at least some of them) have shown themselves to be untrustworthy. Boil it all down and what you have is plain and simple: cheating and a coverup of the cheating to attempt to save face. Whenever a lie is perpetrated to save face it only exacerbates the loss of face and trust. At this point we as a community should demand full disclosure of the relevant details (which we, for a certainty, do not have yet) and appropriate action taken. Anything else is a slap in the face of a community that has been loyal and trusting (for the most part). IMO the actions taken are a decent beginning, but far from sufficient.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:31:00 -
[2460]
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:34:23 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:21:09 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:19:44
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
In America and Iceland, they are only written.
I stopped reading right there. If you believe that all U.S. contracts need to be in writing, you know nothing about the law.
You do realize verbal contracts when taken to court boil down to 'he said, she said' right? I know from personal experience that they do. It also often comes down to whether or not both parties were fully aware some sort of contract was being made. There's a reason people always want something in writing.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:36:00 -
[2461]
Originally by: Irrilian
Originally by: Maya Rkell I'd laugh if Molle got banned. I'd laugh harder if they banned all of Goonfleet for the client side hack.
As this has been brought up a few times...
Its worth considering why such a client mod was "needed".
Like how cyno-nets are "needed" by major alliances?
Sorry, but "needed" isn't an excuse.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:41:00 -
[2462]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Irrilian
Originally by: Maya Rkell I'd laugh if Molle got banned. I'd laugh harder if they banned all of Goonfleet for the client side hack.
As this has been brought up a few times...
Its worth considering why such a client mod was "needed".
Like how cyno-nets are "needed" by major alliances?
Sorry, but "needed" isn't an excuse.
Hence the double quotes. Yes, the goons have been naughty, but as we're learning there has been a great deal of naughtiness from lots of different people.
Eve Wiki|Eve Tribune|Scrapheap challenge|EveGeek |
XirtamVotf
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:43:00 -
[2463]
Well another argument is that Goonfleet happened 6 months back and T20 happened 6 months back so its a wash on handling the matter.
The new argument is that Knug was banned and not Sir Molle in the instant issue at hand , and prior to of posting ASCN forums on EVE-O.
The point is CCP cant hold 2 sets of rules, and chose when to enforce them
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:44:00 -
[2464]
Originally by: Xendie
Maya even i think you sound weird now, did you sell your account to Dianabolic for RL money?
Xendie, I'm demanding proof of EVERYTHING in this thread. It's not personal. I'm not digging for anything - you've brought it up, you provide the evidence. And no, I'm still me.
Any evidence at this stage should be passed to CCP. Period. The current witch hunt makes no sense in general. As for BoB starting with the name Cookies, Cake and Pie, that was something which was proposed by an extremely drunk member and instantly grabbed as being a great name (as I recall). CCP's response to CCP was..er.. let's just say that there was no choice in the matter of changing the name whatsoever.
XirtamVotf, no, I said that there was no concept of fairness in the EULA. That is entirely different. You are only confused because you are reading your own bias into what I type.
Vipeer,
No, you broke the forum rules. Now, either you want the rules applied evenly (in which case your posts were rightly moderated) or you do not, in which case your call rings hollow. I'm not looking to "lure" you anywhere, I'm pointing out the basic inconsistancy in your post.
As I've said before - it's been about two years since I believed CCP were impartial. Eve's subcriptions won't "implode"...less than 200 people have so far threatened to quit, and only a small fraction will follow through.
Wibiq, and a criminal hacker is inherently untrustworthy. They obtained the material by illegal means, and there is no telling what they have done with doctoring it before release. That any one segment is true does not mean that was not done deliberately to give the rest credence.
Malthros Zenobia, it really does depend. In America, I believe theres a fairly low level of cost ($500?) above which you must have a written contract, and some forms of impermerment media cannot be used for forming contracts (especially with non-Americans). In the UK it's pretty much pure proof, except for land.
//Maya |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 21:45:00 -
[2465]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
It doesn't matter anymore. Even if they ban him, he has (or 'had') advanced notice, so he'll move all the assest to another char. Unlike some other people who got banned without any notice...
While this advanced notice could allow him to give up all the assets to the corporation, if they are following K's precedent they will have to ban all of his accounts, not just the one he posted with.
CCP just need to state that Kugu's attempts to blackmail them are reason enough for him to never play EVE again.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:53:00 -
[2466]
Maya: I wholeheartedly agree that a criminal hacker lacks any credibility whatsoever. I merely state that an ADMITTED liar lacks credibility also. The issue was denied as recently as last month although CCP knew of it last year. The confession and subsequent posts by the Dev team are an admission of a lie. I also deplore a witchhunt. The easiest way to avoid a witch hunt is a full disclosure and a censuring of all parties involved. I think that the hacker deserved his ban. I think his actions were reprehensible, but that does not excuse a coverup and an biased application of the stated rules. Ban Goonfleet for their hack, ban SirMolle for his violations of the EULA, ban anyone who runs a cynonet. Cheating is cheating. Just because it was relatively inconsequential cheating has no bearing on the issue. Ban them all and let an unbiased application of the EULA and other rules determine who shall rule 0.0.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:55:00 -
[2467]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:34:23 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:21:09 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 19:19:44
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
In America and Iceland, they are only written.
I stopped reading right there. If you believe that all U.S. contracts need to be in writing, you know nothing about the law.
You do realize verbal contracts when taken to court boil down to 'he said, she said' right? I know from personal experience that they do. It also often comes down to whether or not both parties were fully aware some sort of contract was being made. There's a reason people always want something in writing.
Nonetheless, a contract can be formed without a writing. Maya was quite mistaken on this point.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:58:00 -
[2468]
Originally by: Rodney Caston I wonder if the forum software can handle a 100 page post? or does it break after 99?
Pretty sure we're gonna find out.
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Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:03:00 -
[2469]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Any evidence at this stage should be passed to CCP. Period.
Why? So they can quickly swipe it under the rug, with the rest?
The past few days have shown us that CCP will only react to public pressure, hence the evidence is best presented to the public, who will then use said evidence to exert said pressure.
I don't have faith in CCP to self-regulate itself at the moment, sorry.
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Ask Unbeatable
Gallente HighTech Marines Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:04:00 -
[2470]
Edited by: Ask Unbeatable on 11/02/2007 22:01:28 Okay, this is not good. Let me say it this way:
When CCP got a dent in their shield last summer when they first discovered this, I can understand why they turned on their shield booster, and hid it. And when Kugutsmen fired a volley of 'evidence' at their armor, I see why they tried to fix it with an armor repper and some bans. But for the games sake, when you are out of cap and your structure starts going down, please just pay the ransom and tell us the truth. We do not want a final "BOOM - hull shot!" because of one(?) silly Dev made some mistakes.
Thanks for making such a great game.
Regards,
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Nils Bohr
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 22:06:00 -
[2471]
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Any evidence at this stage should be passed to CCP. Period.
Why? So they can quickly swipe it under the rug, with the rest?
The past few days have shown us that CCP will only react to public pressure, hence the evidence is best presented to the public, who will then use said evidence to exert said pressure.
I don't have faith in CCP to self-regulate itself at the moment, sorry.
A valid point.
When the first posts went up about this subject, they were deleted as soon as they hit the boards. Definitely not the actions of people determined to set matters to right without considerable prodding.
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Fassn
Amarr Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:07:00 -
[2472]
Well what is done is done. Only thing left to do is find those who broke the rules and Discipline
An employee of Mercurialis Incorporated Director of Black Operations [email protected] http://mercurialis.net |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 22:12:00 -
[2473]
Oh and to those of you who accuse those of us who are asking for true justice to be done as "haters": did it never occur to you that the reason we are so adamant about the issue is because we love the game so much?
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:12:00 -
[2474]
Originally by: merc999
A simple question
Sir Molle has broken the EULA CCP has the proof 1. Revealing real life details of another member 2. Knowing and collaborating with shared accounts (Cynonet)
Why is Sir Molle and all his accounts not suspended or banned? when another member detailed a players RL detauls the ban was swift and permanent for all his accounts..
One rule for 99% of us.. another for BoB leadership..?
This needs to be answered.
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Heavy Drinker
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:14:00 -
[2475]
Does CCP have a refund policy? I figure for the last 6 months I was purchasing one product and receiving another, people not happy with alternate product should be entitled to a refund. Its true for any other consumer product (not EU person please correct me if iceland/Europe has some wierd rules here thanks).
Drinker.
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:18:00 -
[2476]
Edited by: Liquid Vision on 11/02/2007 22:14:32
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
Oh, and by the way Avon. . .I don't want to hear ANYTHING more you have to say about ANYTHING considering the fact that you have officially been noted as a BOB propaganda tool. Obviously I can't post the info since CCP would swoop in like a hawk and make sure I and the info disappear before anyone could know the truth. However, if anyone wants to know just convo me in game.
Avon here has been specifically picked by BOB because he posts in a calm and businesslike manner and lulls everyone to sleep with his spin and propaganda instead of ****ing everyone off with BOB's normal attack dog style. Funny, it's working too because I saw SEVERAL folks in here saying that they felt sorry for old Avon and blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm sorry too. . .that I actually had to listen to his tripe where he accuses all of US of being the bad guys in his nice and gentle way.
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:19:00 -
[2477]
Edited by: Booster Junkie on 11/02/2007 22:16:17 Anyone who wants to see CCP do the right thing should start writing emails and letters to White Wolf regarding the events, and timing of events, in relation to the merger.
CCP only responds to pressure, so apply pressure.
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Erin Athena
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:20:00 -
[2478]
Heh is this a commerical mmo or a nwn social server where you need to be friendly with a DM/Dev so your kittygirl can have a tail? xD
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:22:00 -
[2479]
Well, it'll probably not make any difference seeing as even the moderators have stopped their efforts in this thread. But.
I've spent some time this weekend thinking about all the issues mentioned in this thread (and yes, I've read EVERY post!) and basically the end result is disappointment and anger.
t20: You are a real piece of work. This is your chance to fess up to knowing about the BoB cynonet and exiting stage right gracefully. Instead, I'm looking forward to how this entire 'You know, I had no idea re: logistics of efficient cap ship movement, even though I was head of cap ship ops at the time simply because capital ships didn't exist back then!' Patent bull. If there were fewer cap ships, pilots and cyno alts it'd be that much more imperative to maximize their utilization efficiency.
Remember that it takes just one disgruntled rat to squeal. And any squealer will be taken *very* seriously by the community at this point. Be very very sure you're absolutely clean, because any further allegations turning out correct will not just sink you and your online gaming buddies, but the game you love, the company you work for and possibly White Wolf. Lots of people who don't even know you could be hurt by your selfishness.
I haven't played Eve at all this weekend, except to log in and swap some skills. What's the point? It'd take me multiple years of grinding to equal the value of a 'worthless' gift by a corrupt dev or a GM to their friends. The fun has been utterly sucked out of the game for me overnight. My 2 accounts are pre-paid until March, and CCP has that long to convince me they're taking effective measures to level the playing field.
I refuse to be the retard paying CCP employees and friends to pwn me while laughing all the way to the bank.
As someone so astutely pointed out, this company was founded by a group of UO griefers. It's time to make the choice -- paychecks, or griefing the newbies. I don't think the media and the Eve community will let you have it both ways going forward.
Those of you cancelling your accounts -- good for you. Also look into disputing the charges going back several years if you paid with your credit card. I think the top brass of CCP needs to be shown via actual shrinking bank accounts that this is a serious issue which can't be simply ignored and brushed off with a request to forgive and forget and return to being mushrooms.
As far as innocent BoB members: well, sucks to be you, for sure. Everything you've done is now tainted by a cloud of (IMO) mostly BS accusations. But them's the breaks. Plenty of unfair, shady stuff happened to your opposition as well.
And no, you can't have my stuff. If I quit I'm donating it all (only about a billion or so, but hey every bit counts) to the goonies or something.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:25:00 -
[2480]
Wibiq, that'd work for me. Of course, I do wonder how many accounts it'd involve. In thousands.
Razor Jaxx, if you won't believe them regardless, your recourse is to stop paying them. CCP are not obliged in their EULA to tell us about dev misconduct.
Heavy Drinker, yep. "No refunds". You agreed to this, and a dev cheating does not constitude a material breach of the EULA (since it's not mentioned there). No chance, in other words.
Liquid Vision, but you as a hackfleet shill and supporter of criminal hackers should be free to run wild? Your so-information does not exist, period. Your support for a criminal and for hackfleet is wrong, period.
And moreover, under the very rules you claim to want upheld, you have no right to tell him to stop posting here. One rule for you, and one rule for everyone who disagrees with you, liquid? Isn't that supposedly what you're working against? Ah, yes, it is.
Even handed, even handed.
//Maya |
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thoradh
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:27:00 -
[2481]
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Oh, and by the way Avon. . .I don't want to hear ANYTHING more you have to say about ANYTHING considering the fact that you have officially been noted as a BOB propaganda tool. Obviously I can't post the info since CCP would swoop in like a hawk and make sure I and the info disappear before anyone could know the truth. However, if anyone wants to know just convo me in game.
Avon here has been specifically picked by BOB because he posts in a calm and businesslike manner and lulls everyone to sleep with his spin and propaganda instead of ****ing everyone off with BOB's normal attack dog style. Funny, it's working too because I saw SEVERAL folks in here saying that they felt sorry for old Avon and blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm sorry too. . .that I actually had to listen to his tripe where he accuses all of US of being the bad guys in his nice and gentle way.
As usual, well said sir!
Dos'ent Avon remind you a lot of Rod Blaine though? And as you point out Liquid, the usual rabbid slavering posters have been remarkably absent
> > Noli illegitimi carborundum! > |
nails
Caldari Ota Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:27:00 -
[2482]
This is probably one of the most interesting things that has happened in EVE since Zombie pwn3d Yulai. --------------
http://nails.otaku.jp/ota-corps/--Adv Anime Rank |
Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:29:00 -
[2483]
Hey, here's an interesting point:
The CCP/White Wolf merger was announced after CCP learned of an internal incident which could negatively impact its operations and financial performance. Did CCP disclose the incident to White Wolf during the due diligence that preceded the merger?
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Minmatar Citizen 138031
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:29:00 -
[2484]
Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
Obviously when kung hacked there forums and the situation was brought to light people drawn there own conclusions and started a witch hunt ( peoples own conclusions been that it was strange a DEV had 10 Tech 2 bpos which forced CCP into action hense the investigation )
Now we know that bob was given the BPOS, and that they was aware of who T20 was but at the end of the day why would you suspect a dev would cheat in his own game, I certainly wouldn't. (but hey everyones different ?) So the bpos were left for the 6 months without CCPS knowledge, and without BOB knowing how they was brought into the world and everyone thought everything was fine.
Kung then hacked the bob forums and released imformation that lifted some eyebrows, you then had every anti-bob hater on the planet jump and scream until a investigation was launched and obviously there concern turned out to be correct. This though know way means that any bob member was aware of the situation or involved.
Although if there was any bob members involved they should be perma banned from the game, I also belive that the isk made from the BPO's should be removed from bob. Lets be honoest the isk removed wont even scratch the very large ammount they make on a monthly even daily basis. It is also possibly to do that to a certain extent, because as I understand it each item in game has a unique ID ?
Also inreguards to sir molle I read that thread, he refered to him as AnthonyZ which if you google is his online hacker nick and also his real name. And he is a very very well known one at that. He also works for a massive secruity firm testing there secruity ( hehe that sounded wrong ) there is some imformation about him hosting a teamspeak server on a FBI server in france, which is absolutely mad.
Reguards to a cyno-net I know a couple alliances doing that so there would be alot of banning going on for that.
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Erin Athena
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:31:00 -
[2485]
Hire someone to read the logs and pay them a large bonus for every cheating employee they get fired.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:31:00 -
[2486]
The need to restore confidence in the player base is now paramont to CCP, or at least it should be.
The problem is that there has been admitedly a breach of trust. An employee of CCP used his power to alter the game in such a way that benefitted his friends in game.
Now what is even more troubling is that auditors at CCP we are told discovered this last summer, yet they allowed the items to remain in game and in the possession of the other dev's friends.
Thus this group has benefited from items they should not have had. CCP decided to allow them to keep the items when by policy they should have been removed last summer. By not removing them in accordance with policy CCP has shown that they for whatever reason showed favortism to this group.
In the past such items and all proceeds associated with them were removed from the game. That needs to happen now. The BPOs we told are being removed, but that's not enough. The benefits gained from them need to be removed or offset at the very least.
The corporations and alliance involved should be fined a number of ISK equivalent to the amount expected to be earned. CCP can easily determine how much research for ME an d TE was done. Since T2 BPOs are not suppose to sit unused for more than a month without being reseeded we can assume that whatever time beyond the research time was used in production to the fullest extent. Then using the ingame tools we can easily determine an average price for said goods. This then needs to be applied as a fine to the corporations and alliance in question.
Next we have some serious issues with the EULA. It appears that it is not being applied equally. We have a member of the community that was banned because he posted personal information of an account holder, however we have another member of the community, a member and leader of the alliance that benefitted from the devs cheating that has not been banned. SirMolle should be banned and all accounts that have ever used his same ISPN should be banned. This should take place immediately and be verified by a database search of login information for his account and any other accounts that used the same ISPN just as it was done for the whistleblower. This is necessary to restore confidence, regardless of how the devs feel towards the person of SirMolle, no matter if he is an ingame friend or a friend you know in life. In order for the game to move past this, he must pay for the actions he has done and that he has fostered.
I realise also that this collection of corporations/alliances are not probably the only ones that have engaged in such activities. The trouble here is that it is a corp/alliance that has been shown to have been aided by developer interference and thus a draconian approach is needed. Until you take such measures the fog of suspicion will surround not only these corps/alliance but also the devs.
I think that the rules concerning dev characters needs to be reviewed in light of recent events. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believe that you do need to play the game you are making though. But it is clear that in the past that inadequate controls have led to manipulation of the game in favor of those you would call friends. Such allegations have arisen before this occassion and noone believes that t20 is alone in his guilt of cheating by developers. The fact you waited 7 months to reveal and act upon information of wrongdoing shows that it is very likely there have been more instances that the playerbase is not aware of.
What do you do? That's a hard one. You need to play the game to develop it, but you need ot have such controls in place to prevent such abuse. You also need access to all aspects of the game in order to better understand its problems. I suppose the simplest solution would be to require developer, GM and volunteer characters to switch corps and alliance every 6 months as a minimum. Its not perfect but I don't think we'll find a perfect solution.
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Alumion
Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:32:00 -
[2487]
Their forum was not hacked, rather leaked
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:34:00 -
[2488]
Maya: Last realistic estimate of subscriber count was somewhere in the 150k range. So even if it was 7,500 accounts you're still talking about 5 percent of the subscriber base. Don't you think that that harsh of a response would restore our trust and allow us to brag to our nerdy WoW friends how cool EvE is again? Methinks it could even possibly have a significant payoff when the gamers that decry cheating in other games hear about it. Imagine the positive press. Imagine the people coming over to EvE in droves. Now imagine at least half of those 7500 learning their lesson and resubscribing. Sounds like a possible win-win, albeit with a significant element of risk.
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Minmatar Citizen 138031
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:36:00 -
[2489]
Edited by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 on 11/02/2007 22:32:40
Originally by: Alumion Their forum was not hacked, rather leaked
there forum was hacked, that is not even in question it happened to a few alliances. Just speak to Goonfleet.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:40:00 -
[2490]
Originally by: thoradh
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Oh, and by the way Avon. . .I don't want to hear ANYTHING more you have to say about ANYTHING considering the fact that you have officially been noted as a BOB propaganda tool. Obviously I can't post the info since CCP would swoop in like a hawk and make sure I and the info disappear before anyone could know the truth. However, if anyone wants to know just convo me in game.
Avon here has been specifically picked by BOB because he posts in a calm and businesslike manner and lulls everyone to sleep with his spin and propaganda instead of ****ing everyone off with BOB's normal attack dog style. Funny, it's working too because I saw SEVERAL folks in here saying that they felt sorry for old Avon and blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm sorry too. . .that I actually had to listen to his tripe where he accuses all of US of being the bad guys in his nice and gentle way.
As usual, well said sir!
Dos'ent Avon remind you a lot of Rod Blaine though? And as you point out Liquid, the usual rabbid slavering posters have been remarkably absent
You guys wouldn't mind sending me a link to this info would you?
I'm dead serious.
I do not, as far as I know, post in an official capacity for BoB.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:40:00 -
[2491]
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!) This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
CH
So people that have quit have got refunds from CCP through VISA ?
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GyZb0
Comando Vermelho Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:40:00 -
[2492]
humm, not with time to read all of the posts, but by some i think some GM's helped bob . that screenshot of the pos is pretty annoying, and make me think about all those allegations by cyvok(ASCN) that CCP was helping BOB taking their posŠs out . Now that i think of it, its quite weird and maybe cyvok wasnt so crazy afterall . that and the titan loss when he CTD, makes me say a big HUMMM ....
bpos is one thing, getting bob wallet fatter is also one thing, taking pos out and other alliances assets is a BIG THING .
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Sergio Ling
Standard Operations Building Services
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:41:00 -
[2493]
Edited by: Sergio Ling on 11/02/2007 22:37:38
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: thoradh
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Oh, and by the way Avon. . .I don't want to hear ANYTHING more you have to say about ANYTHING considering the fact that you have officially been noted as a BOB propaganda tool. Obviously I can't post the info since CCP would swoop in like a hawk and make sure I and the info disappear before anyone could know the truth. However, if anyone wants to know just convo me in game.
Avon here has been specifically picked by BOB because he posts in a calm and businesslike manner and lulls everyone to sleep with his spin and propaganda instead of ****ing everyone off with BOB's normal attack dog style. Funny, it's working too because I saw SEVERAL folks in here saying that they felt sorry for old Avon and blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm sorry too. . .that I actually had to listen to his tripe where he accuses all of US of being the bad guys in his nice and gentle way.
As usual, well said sir!
Dos'ent Avon remind you a lot of Rod Blaine though? And as you point out Liquid, the usual rabbid slavering posters have been remarkably absent
You guys wouldn't mind sending me a link to this info would you?
I'm dead serious.
I do not, as far as I know, post in an official capacity for BoB.
I remember when you said you were leaving this game, only to come back cos you loved the forums. feeling it? :p _ Your sig is pwn - Eris
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thoradh
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:44:00 -
[2494]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: thoradh
Originally by: Liquid Vision
Oh, and by the way Avon. . .I don't want to hear ANYTHING more you have to say about ANYTHING considering the fact that you have officially been noted as a BOB propaganda tool. Obviously I can't post the info since CCP would swoop in like a hawk and make sure I and the info disappear before anyone could know the truth. However, if anyone wants to know just convo me in game.
Avon here has been specifically picked by BOB because he posts in a calm and businesslike manner and lulls everyone to sleep with his spin and propaganda instead of ****ing everyone off with BOB's normal attack dog style. Funny, it's working too because I saw SEVERAL folks in here saying that they felt sorry for old Avon and blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm sorry too. . .that I actually had to listen to his tripe where he accuses all of US of being the bad guys in his nice and gentle way.
As usual, well said sir!
Dos'ent Avon remind you a lot of Rod Blaine though? And as you point out Liquid, the usual rabbid slavering posters have been remarkably absent
You guys wouldn't mind sending me a link to this info would you?
I'm dead serious.
I do not, as far as I know, post in an official capacity for BoB.
You might say that Liquid Vision has some information that might be of interest to Us, Me, I could'ent possibly comment > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! > |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:51:00 -
[2495]
Originally by: Slash Harnet
Originally by: Rodney Caston I wonder if the forum software can handle a 100 page post? or does it break after 99?
I have a feeling we are gonna find out on Monday.
The 'fix amarr' thread was around 120 or 130 pages iirc.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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MysticNZ
Solstice Systems Development Concourse SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:51:00 -
[2496]
Edited by: MysticNZ on 11/02/2007 22:49:01 http://news.google.co.nz/news?hl=en&ned=&q=eve-online+scandal&ie=UTF-8
news is making the rounds... -=====-
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Secretary
Bargain consumables
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:51:00 -
[2497]
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=373936&page=6#161
2 months after the bpo were donated to BoB a different GM spawned faction fitted scorpion got blown up and those who blew it up were temporarily banned for refusing to give the loot back becausae that loot was illegally spawned. By a GM.
CCP reported that "We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. We do regular sweeps where we go over the logs of everyone to see what they are doing on their player accounts."
So CCP either ignored all the GMs bar the accused or they were aware of the bpo and just left them because revealing even more GM corruption at the time would not have been ideal publicity.
I am an alt.
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Alumion
Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:52:00 -
[2498]
Edited by: Alumion on 11/02/2007 22:50:12
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Sounds like they'd sack him nowfor not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
They couldn't remove the BPOs without attracting attention, so in order to contain the situation they left it there? And what about the other 4 BPOs? Supposedly 10 of them were acquired, but only 6 confessed. Was there really only 6 of them or they're further covering up, you decide.
-edited for spelling mistakes
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:52:00 -
[2499]
Wibiq, it's somewhat more accounts total, and I'd think more involved. As to restoring trust in CCP's impartiality, I lost mine long ago and nothing can restore it. I just don't let it bother me.
Samuel Freedom, no, he's encouraging people to try and chargeback.
thoradh, and until it's avaliable, it's vapourware. Further, if CCP don't have it they can't use it in their investigation..there is no good reason to withhold it. There are plenty of anonymous ways to send CCP information.
//Maya |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:53:00 -
[2500]
Originally by: Nils Bohr Edited by: Nils Bohr on 11/02/2007 22:45:13
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Seems like they'd sack him now for not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
The whole thing seems like a bit of a double bluff to me.
T20 told RKK that he had to leave because his identity as a Dev had been revealed. This is around the same time that CCP claim they investigated him, and discovered his wrong-doing.
I think he had to leave as a result of the CCP investigation, and not because "some alt unmasked him" as he claimed.
That way CCP get him out of RKK without having to confess to having a cheating Dev on their hands.
That's my take on it, but that is all it is.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:53:00 -
[2501]
All Hail the Prophet Nez
Nez Perces
Posted - 2006.12.13 11:01:00 One of these two alliances is corrupt, rotten and bordering on insanity when it comes to taking this game too far.... have ASCN been wearing their tinfoilhats for so long they are part of their cranium or is something truly sinister going on behind closed doors at CCP, when it comes to BoB.
I hope that by the end of this saga, the answer will be clear.
--------- Posted - 2006.12.13 11:52:00 What you are saying would make sense but for one thing......
Lets go along with your take on this... ASCN are being dismantled by BoB. It seems that the characters behind the ASCN computers can't handle it... they will not allow this to happen, be it by ingame mechanics or calling into question the very fabric of the game we play.
It seems that for their misfortune they are prepared to make the game less palatable for the rest of us.
CCP is corrupt, in bed with BoB. Shady deals going on in the background, preferrential treatment when it comes to petitions. Devs inside BoB, possibly supplying them with isk and materials... who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes? Are we playing a rigged game?
Or does it.... or does the rabbit hole stop at the ASCN forums.
What are they trying to peddle here?
If its not true.. then they are guilty of the most heinous defamation possible, trying to spoil the game for the rest of us.
Thats unforgivable.
So when ASCN goes down is EVE supposed to go down with her, is that the deal?
Cause thats what the implications are of the ASCN accusations.. we are all wasting our time because BoB has CCP in their back pocket.
And by god they better have some proof for what they are saying.
There is nothing innocent or understandable about the implications being cast around on these threads today.
Something is wrong very wrong and the root of it lies within ASCN or BoB. ------------
Now I refer all of you back to my previous post which was quickly buried by a hail of posts in this UNMODERATED thread. (Is CCP just ignoring it or are they data mining?)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=43#1276
---------
Tick Tock Molle....lol
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Boogerbuster
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:53:00 -
[2502]
The countermeasures needed:
1. The CEO is ultimately responsible and must resign ASAP. 2. The dev in question must be banned for life from the live server for EULA violations. Keep him as an employee if you wish. That is CCP's choice. 3. Stronger rules for CCP employee play on live server need to be announced and implemented. Auditing is not enough. You can not audit personal phone, email and TS/Vent communications. Therefore, you can not prevent employee misconduct relating to insider information. This has to be resolves somehow or employees must be banned from live server. 4. The EULA needs to be enforced fairly. The whistleblower information was correct for the BPO's. There is little reason to doubt the rest was faked. The leaders of a certian large PVP alliance need to be banned for EULA violations. 5. You must continue your investigation(under new leadership) and check the actions of all employees relating to play on the live server.
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creative death
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:54:00 -
[2503]
Damn my trust has been completely broken by this.
I think BoBs leadership should be banned. No, all of Bob should be banned. And jailed.
i've been having blackouts and depression since friday. My wife says I have a new facial twitch. Wheres an internet lawyer when you need one around here. Oh wait...
And if you think im ever buying a sabre again you can get lost.
Power to the people!
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:55:00 -
[2504]
eve online corruption scandal response.
I'm possibly rehashing a great deal of what has already been said, and I have no way of knowing if any one of any power in CCP is reading this, but I hope that my thoughts are taken as seriously as possible among the others that have been shared.
First off I want to say how much I enjoy this game. EVE is an excellent game, that I highly enjoy playing. I can't wait to see how the universe is going to grow, and how your vision of EVE will come about. Space ships make me happy, CCP makes a cool space ship game, etc etc... pew pew, I have fun with your product, and I have probably been personally responsible for at least a dozen people joining up, and playing in the last year, and have been playing with, and paying for my own multiple accounts for close to 36 months combined, ignoring the time I spent in the beta so many years ago.
All of that being said though, I am inches away from suspending my accounts, and not playing EVE ever again or ever giving your company another dollar of my hard earned cash. And actually making my thoughts on this issue as publicly known as possible across the Internet, as much as my single voice can carry it.
Paid employees of CCP (through inaction, or lack of action, I can cast blame on the company as a whole, who I entrust with the money I pay to provide a fair game environment for my self, and others) have committed fraud against its paying customers. At this time we have the single confirmation of a single employee acting in such a manner, but the general consensus is that this is not a lone action by a single person, and that others have been involved in this problem, if not other scenarios in other corporations and alliances along the same lines.
To me this is the root of the issue in this horrible situation. That CCP has allowed, and apparently has now done very little to improve upon, an act of out right fraud committed against its extremely loyal, paying, dedicated customer base. And as such has indicated a culture of malicious intent, or passive indifference with in its structure in relation to how its customers are treated.
Some simple math for those who haven't done it yet. (I'm surprised I've seen so few people comment on this part of the issue even.) To simply illustrate the severty of this issue, above and beyond any Raven battleships that I may have lost to BOB Spike L snipers, or ships caught by Sabre Interceptors, that the large numbers of people who play eve, are the ones who have all lost out in this episode.
I have two accounts, for which I pay the monthly $14.95 each, I have had one of those accounts for over 2 years. The other I've had for a year. That is 36 payments of 14.95 a month. Or, $538.20.
The latest figures I've heard, with out any hard confirmation from CCP have placed the number of paying user accounts at over 300,000. If we can assume that the user population 12 months ago was at 200,000 paying accounts at the start of these problems, that is 200,000 users (14.95 USD) (12 Months). Do I even need to do the math? (35,880,000 USD in gross revenues if you actually wanted to know).
Not figuring interest gained on savings, profit from the CCG, or other tertiary products (hats, mugs, key chains, etc...)
Thirty eight million, eight hundred and eighty thousand dollars in revenues. And that's not counting the other 100,000 people that have joined supposedly in the last 12 months.
Makes you a little sick to the stomach doesn't it?
t20 should be fired, if he is the only person at fault here. If there are other people in CCP who actively participated in the acts described in the admission of guilt, they should be fired also.
This is not just a silly episode of a DEV logging on with a Jovian ship to mess around and have fun (I for one wish they did it more often, so I could see what they look like, but I like shiny things...) with no serious strategic implications of the action...
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:56:00 -
[2505]
This is a calculated episode of a developer taking the effort to manipulate the rare resource of T2 BPO's for placement into his hands (while the rest of his staff was on summer vacation as indicated in the "official dev response thread", this level of premeditation alone is frightening in its potential consequences) and then the alliance in which he was a part of. And then the complete and utter failure of CCP to remove those BPO's once it was discovered how they got there. That is a defrauding of the BPO lottery, and the thousands of people who PAY CCP REAL MONEY to play the game with an expectation of fairness and good game play for all, including them selves. People who struggle for RP points to get a BPO, and a struggle for the people who fight bob, hoping for a fair fight, against a highly organized and respected foe. People who we now have learned (my self included) may have lost ships, and strategic resouces (I sure don't live in the rich land of Feythabolis anymore, and neither does my corporation) because BOB had a strategic advantage beyond ANYTHING any other alliance may have had access to. Any and all assistance by the Dev's in this matter, no matter how small should be seen in the same severety, as a complete failure to respect the player base, who pay for this product, and as a clear indication that the culture is not interested in the players.
Very few of us it seems has a problem with Dev's playing the game, I for one encourage it, because as has been stated, its important that they understand how the game works so that they can make a full and fair effort to make it the best game that they can.
The issue is that this Dev, if not others as well, have not been playing the game, they have been playing US, the paying customers as pawns in their schemes for controlling things, and making it their game to play, not ours.
In American sports leagues, in which millions of dollars are spent yearly for what we all hope is a fair game, featuring the competition of athletes, there are serious consequences to fraudulent manipulation of the sport for the benefit of one team or another. On many occasions in the USA people have gone to jail, and have been banned from playing the sport competitively for the rest of their lives. I reiterate that for the reasons he has him self alone admitted to, t20 should be fired from CCP, and his accounts should be suspended. If he wants to play the game, he may I guess, pay for it like the rest of us, and play on the same level as the rest of us.
I could ask for my money back, cancel my accounts, and move on in my life, and maybe some will call me a hypocrite for not doing exactly that, but I have actually, a great deal of faith and hope for the continued growth and exploration of EVE as a game universe. I deal with the bugs, and hope they get worked out. I cross my fingers and patiently wait when there is an extended downtime (set a long skill!). But this has caused numerous of my friends to close their accounts, and just wash their hands of the mess. This has caused another group of friends to seriously consider taking such an action, and I've read numerous posts in this thread of other people doing it, and of saying their friends have done the same thing. A few have even posted, or talked to me about legal action.
CCP, do you not understand the serious nature of the events that have transpired here? Do you not understand the potential legal ramifications that are present in this case? Do you not understand, simply enough, the way your player base feels right now? the people who have paid you their hard earned money to play this game. The peope who pay your salaries, and pay for the work you do, work that we all know you all love to do.
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MAC MCADAMS
Black Lance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:56:00 -
[2506]
Let me see if I get this right
If you cheat you dont get banned - If you highlight the cheaters you do
If you post about BOB is gets locked, if BOB post about others it doesnt
Sounds fair to me, whats the problem!!!!!!!!
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 22:57:00 -
[2507]
Your customer base is rebelling against you. And you've effectively destroyed all but the last bit of trust I had in your actions as benefactors for the game. I am on a slim line of hope, hoping for the best out of all of this.
There have been posts in this thread that discuss past battles, the admission of events, and abuse that some have claimed for months, and are now justified in their stance. Ramblings and anger that I think a lot of people are entitled to share. Yet I think those issues, while valid are not what CCP as a company, nor any of us as customers should focus on. As I am doing, the rest of the people involved in this (all 300,000 of you) who want the BEST from this event, should be focusing on the cultural issues at CCP that allowed this to happen. Should t20 be fired, well, as paying customers go, a lot of them think so, but why is was he playing in the manner that he was? and does CCP want that kind of person on the team? By reading the "official"dev responses, (btw, they're rather weak, imho ) I learned that t20 did his dirty work while most of you were on summer vacation. That smacks of a premeditated action... What other premeditated actions has he taken, or thought about, that are damaging toCCP's reputation (which is rather shat on over the Internet at this point)? Speaking as someone with a moderate amount of professional experience, had I done anything of this kind, to provide private services to my self at the expense of my employers, or gasp, their customers, I would have been fired on the spot, if not charged with fraud in a court of law.
The Culture of CCP as an employer and company to work at is critical to the behavior of the employees and the games development. The culture you cultivate with our employees and the game masters who volunteer is critical to making sure this doesn't happen again.
I wish I were wise enough to know how to answer the question of how you reach that point, but I do know enough that the current policy of keeping a really tight wrap on the events that have transpired here is only going to cause more damage as this moves forward. That any repairs you make to your reputation with the community are going to take a lot of hard work, and will be won only through transparency of communication, and being open and receptive to the issues that are brought to bear.
No product, or company can survive is their customer base is ignored, and trodden upon. No customer base will stick around if their wishes aren't being answered. The customer base will find somewhere else to go, if that other place offers them a better product.
Right now CCP has done very little to share openly with the community what has really happened in these events, and this is a clear indication of the cultural problem I'm trying to bring a spot light on.
I implore CCP to open up this conversation to the audience, and actually begin to reply to the 2000+ posts in the thread, beyond the 12 or so replies in a locked thread byKieron. Such a limited response reeks of CYA (cover your posterior) tactics, and goes hardly any distance to addressing things.
The next few months, and how CCP responds to this will, imho make or break the company. Word of these events has already gotten out, and as much as you as a company celebrate the loyalty you have with your customers, failure to respect that will be an equal and opposite reaction to these events.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:57:00 -
[2508]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Heavy Drinker, yep. "No refunds". You agreed to this, and a dev cheating does not constitude a material breach of the EULA (since it's not mentioned there). No chance, in other words.
Don't be so sure there. Several people claim to have received credit card refunds going back years because the product does not meet expectations. At least in the US 'the consumer is always right' has some advantages.
The EULA is for the end users. In essense, we agree to stop using the service whenever CCP asks us to take a hike. What we have here is a product we are purchasing -- in this case, a game -- may have turned out to be rigged in favor of the people running the game.
Look at previous posts. There was at least one other game which closed down due to people demanding and receiving refunds.
Quote:
"Also look into disputing the charges going back several years if you paid with your credit card."
And for that you should be banned, since that is a clear breach of the terms of service you have agreed to. Futher, there is no grounds for it because there has not been a material change - legally - in the terms of the game. "A dev cheated" is NOT covered by the rules. Perhaps it should be...but it currently is not.
Wow, I think I remember why I dislike lawyers so much. You certainly can take topics on irrelevant tangents.
One dev cheating is not the key issue here. The key issue here is CCP management knew of an unfair advantage for certain parties, and in their typical favortism fashion let it ride until the public outcry was too much. They did not enforce their own policies designed to provide an even playing field for us great unwashed.
There is a LOT of anecdotal evidence pointing to favortism by GMs, devs and ISD members. Where there's smoke there is likely fire. Lots of inconsistent enforcement of the EULA -- starting with the very goonfleet client hacks you mention, banning accounts for having a friend log in to change skills while cynonet alts remain, FRAPS of exploiters shooting through POS shields ignored and SirMolle still kicking around.
I'll bet money nobody at CCP wants to try to test their EULA in court after all that.
As far as being banned -- well, it'd be consistent with a pattern of smacking down the little guy, shooting the messenger, etc. It'd make my choice of whether to continue playing very easy.
Every MMO has a 'we can ban you at will' clause in the EULA. But if players are viwed as punished unfairly and arbitrarily, a mass exodus results.
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:58:00 -
[2509]
Please, as a player, make me happy to be giving you the money I give you every month, and make me happy to play the game, and do everything you can to convince me that beyond the randomness ofTCP/IP packet traffic, the idiosyncrasies of my own Internet connection, and anything else that we fairly understand effect our game play, that you as a company, as the creators of EVE online, the best game I've ever played, are doing EVERYTHING in your power to make it as fair, even, balanced, and fun for every player in the game, no matter where they log in from, what alliance they fly for, or what corporation they pay taxes to.
Thank you.
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lagoona
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:07:00 -
[2510]
All website for gamers told about that i don't thing that CCP will have a lot new players .... Good job dev, it's perhaps better to resolve the lag that to play with bob and help them for what ? Perhaps i will be back in 2 years in this game, bye.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:09:00 -
[2511]
Originally by: Samuel Freedom
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!) This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
CH
So people that have quit have got refunds from CCP through VISA ?
There's no grounds for refunds, and anyone who tries to retract their past payments via their CC comapnies are looking at breaking the law themselves, as they have made use of services rendered that they paid for.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:11:00 -
[2512]
alpheon,
"apparently has now done"
Because you haven't even waited for their investigation to conclude, sure.
"t20 should be fired, if he is the only person at fault here."
Labour laws, double jeopardy
"On many occasions in the USA people have gone to jail"
Because of criminal acts. Cheating in a MMO with no real-world cash involved is not criminal. Still wrong, but a bad comparison.
"Your customer base is rebelling against you."
That's "several hundred of your..."
Toria Nynys, devs cheating is not a material breach of the EULA as it stands. There are no grounds for a chargeback. Favouratism either. There are simply no promises on that. Some EULA's *do* have a vision statement. CCP's does not.
If you want to sue CCP, I'm sure you will... and I'll be booing you from the sidelines.
//Maya |
Jonathan Xavier
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:14:00 -
[2513]
Much of how I feel about this issue has been hashed out and rehashed by other player in this thread and elsewhere. All I ask from CCP from this point forward is more transparency between CCP and the playerbase regarding important issues such as this. An honest, forthcoming response would have gone a long way toward engendering trust between CCP and the playerbase. The perceived coverup is damaging the relationship between EVE Developers and EVE Players.
In the future CCP, just be honest and forthcoming about such issues and it will be far less likely to explode as it already has. Don't lock threads and deny and ignore until the problem is to big to handle. Players are human. Developers are human. We all make mistakes. Let's just move forward. |
Starfinder
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:15:00 -
[2514]
Originally by: merc999 Edited by: merc999 on 11/02/2007 21:49:22 A simple question
Sir Molle has broken the EULA CCP has the proof 1. Revealing real life details of another member 2. Knowing and collaborating with shared accounts (Cynonet)
Why is Sir Molle and all his accounts not suspended or banned? when another member detailed a players RL detauls the ban was swift and permanent for all his accounts..
One rule for 99% of us.. another for BoB leadership..?
It would seem that way merc999. This hardly gives us faith in CCP being fair and balanced in the future.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:16:00 -
[2515]
I think the only thing we all (most?) agree on is that Eve is a very equal game. It's just more equal for some then for others.
That GM issue where the players got banned for GM abuse seems to have set a rather horrible precedent, but I even think thats a little over the top.
signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:16:00 -
[2516]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Samuel Freedom
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!) This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
CH
So people that have quit have got refunds from CCP through VISA ?
There's no grounds for refunds, and anyone who tries to retract their past payments via their CC comapnies are looking at breaking the law themselves, as they have made use of services rendered that they paid for.
kk thx for the info ...atleast I didnt get stuck in Jita due to lag and number tonight!!
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KIZERIAN
Caldari SKORPION CORP Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:18:00 -
[2517]
I am an average joe playing nearly a year. I run a small happy corp merrily making our way up the food chain with our foot inside low sec. On this journey we knew there players that cheat. From macro miners to isk sellers and all the rest, we accepted this in the firm belief that if caught theese cheating scumbags lose the lot. CCP were the police and as far as i could see they did a good job. But now this rears its ugly head. The faith in the system is shattered. From a cheating dev to a pitifull handleing by the entire company. All the hours my guys have spent mining the rock face, the isk we worked hard to make to push our corp forward. It just leaves such a sense of betrayl and pointlessness. We believed the playing field was level. I guess its upto CCP to convince us it is once again. Il beleive that when i see it. Kizer
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:20:00 -
[2518]
Originally by: Maya Rkell alpheon,
"apparently has now done"
Because you haven't even waited for their investigation to conclude, sure.
"t20 should be fired, if he is the only person at fault here."
Labour laws, double jeopardy
"On many occasions in the USA people have gone to jail"
Because of criminal acts. Cheating in a MMO with no real-world cash involved is not criminal. Still wrong, but a bad comparison.
"Your customer base is rebelling against you."
That's "several hundred of your..."
Toria Nynys, devs cheating is not a material breach of the EULA as it stands. There are no grounds for a chargeback. Favouratism either. There are simply no promises on that. Some EULA's *do* have a vision statement. CCP's does not.
If you want to sue CCP, I'm sure you will... and I'll be booing you from the sidelines.
About T20, if CCP were serious, even if they can't fire him, they can always relegate him to a different position where he can no longer influence the game, i.e. do the cleaning or work in the personell department or whatever. Not that I am saying they should, just that they have options there if they want to.
Secondly, about the VISA thing. Let the VISA lawyers worry about that. I'm sure they know a hundred times more about when you can reclaim money than any of us here. If people wanna try that, let them.
Issue here is not so much whether CCP did enough or not, because that is completely subjective and its much more a case of perceptions. Some people will perceive CCP as having done enough and will continue to support them or return to support them. Some people will disagree and will leave, and some of them will continue to badmouth CCP for years to come in any project CCP does. Like what has happened to SOE over various projects.
CCP is just gonna have to live with these consequences, but I do hope that they are aware of them. There is no magic wand here that will make it all go away, this is a permanent scar on CCP and EVE. How big a scar? I don't know, but maybe CCP can do enough to keep it a small one, though if it continues to fester, it doesnt bode well for the longterm perspective of EVE, or for any other online game CCP intends to develop as they apparently intend to with World of Darkness (which I find an intrigueing idea really, as former WOD RPG player and fan of high stakes PvP, I hope CCP will bring some of the ruthlessness of Eve into such an MMO, though maybe a tad less than we currently are experiencing)
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Chardonay
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:23:00 -
[2519]
Originally by: merc999 Edited by: merc999 on 11/02/2007 21:49:22 A simple question
Sir Molle has broken the EULA CCP has the proof 1. Revealing real life details of another member 2. Knowing and collaborating with shared accounts (Cynonet)
Why is Sir Molle and all his accounts not suspended or banned? when another member detailed a players RL detauls the ban was swift and permanent for all his accounts..
One rule for 99% of us.. another for BoB leadership..?
1. Some people are allowed to do that apparently, as long as you edit it after. I have a copy of SirMolle's unedited post. Suppose you let me know when you want to see it, I post up, then edit it out 5 mins later. How long do you think it would take for me to get banned ? hours or minutes ? Perhaps I need to join BoB first.
2. It seems that the player base has to police this issue as per the Dev posts. They will only investigate after player generated petitions against specific character names. In other words, they can't be arsed to look into it. And then when someone like kugut actually does reveal it, they ban him instead!! absolutely unbeliveable.
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:23:00 -
[2520]
Originally by: Maya Rkell alpheon,
"apparently has now done"
Because you haven't even waited for their investigation to conclude, sure.
"t20 should be fired, if he is the only person at fault here."
Labour laws, double jeopardy
"On many occasions in the USA people have gone to jail"
Because of criminal acts. Cheating in a MMO with no real-world cash involved is not criminal. Still wrong, but a bad comparison.
"Your customer base is rebelling against you."
That's "several hundred of your..."
Toria Nynys, devs cheating is not a material breach of the EULA as it stands. There are no grounds for a chargeback. Favouratism either. There are simply no promises on that. Some EULA's *do* have a vision statement. CCP's does not.
If you want to sue CCP, I'm sure you will... and I'll be booing you from the sidelines.
Thank you maya for taking a few bits of my post, hastily written, and making them the sound bite. Perhaps you could take the time to read my thoughts, and understand that I'm far more interested in the implications of these events, and how they can be learned from, and through those lessons, make a better game for all of us to play.
I am not encouraging legal action, and neither am I a expert on Icelantic labor law. Though I am familiar with the concept of "At Will Employment" where your employer basicly is allowed to fire you at any time, for any reason. I doubt CCP has a union.
I also in places in my posts, stated that I'm looking forward to seeing (with some apprehension) to the way all of this plays out. CCP has a lot of work to do to repair their reputation.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:23:00 -
[2521]
Forget firing,
Resign!
...and leave with some dignity.
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Evil D4rk
Caldari Shihan.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:25:00 -
[2522]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nils Bohr Edited by: Nils Bohr on 11/02/2007 22:45:13
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Seems like they'd sack him now for not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
The whole thing seems like a bit of a double bluff to me.
T20 told RKK that he had to leave because his identity as a Dev had been revealed. This is around the same time that CCP claim they investigated him, and discovered his wrong-doing.
I think he had to leave as a result of the CCP investigation, and not because "some alt unmasked him" as he claimed.
That way CCP get him out of RKK without having to confess to having a cheating Dev on their hands.
That's my take on it, but that is all it is.
Avon, there is a much more serious issue that needs to be dealt with and it has not been dealt with by CCP.
T20 supplying BOB with privelidged info, and there is proof of that. But it has not been dealth with anyone in CCP or bob please tell you do not deny this happened Avon.
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VD ThatsNotRight
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:26:00 -
[2523]
cant be bothered reading all 90 pages,so this has probabaly been said before.but whats to say this is the first time this guy has tried this trick?theres nothing to say that he hasnt spawned himself lots off goodies in the past,and this time he just happened to be unlucky.plus on top of that,i wonger what the odds are that none of the other devs share the same morals as this guy.and for all those who think it isnt a big thing,cheating is cheating.if i were to buy eve stuff on ebay id be kicked.so anyone else gaining goods in ways which are against the rules should suffer the same fate.quite frankly i find it worrying that the people who are ultimately in control of our entire universe cannot be trusted
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Ademaro Imre
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:27:00 -
[2524]
This whole thing disgusts me to no end. CCP and its employees are fixing the game, while I pay to be at a disadvantage.
Does anyone have a list of upcoming space MMORPG's? I want to start checking them out.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:28:00 -
[2525]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 11/02/2007 23:25:15
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
CCP just need to state that Kugu's attempts to blackmail them are reason enough for him to never play EVE again.
And be brought to court? (CCP not K)
In most jurisdictions, even if the allegation is true, that is a real possibility.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:28:00 -
[2526]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 23:27:44 alpheon, if you're not interested in the misunderstandings in your post, well...
The lawsuit comment was aimed at someone else, but I can certainly comment on "At Will Employment" - it's an artifact found only in the USA. Other countries do not require unions to convey rights onto workers.
In particular, Iceland is an EEA member and has implimented much the same employment and social directives as full EU members.
//Maya |
DochMarr
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:30:00 -
[2527]
everyone makes mistakes, and even in this game people get second chances, and for the rest of you upset about it, i wasnt in bob when i heard of it, and could care less then and now, sounds to me a bunch of demigoguery, sorry if the spellings wrong, clearly it was wrong but people shouldnt blame all there problems upon bob and ccp as they do, live with the fact that we are all second to someone, even ccp!!!
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:33:00 -
[2528]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Because you haven't even waited for their investigation to conclude, sure.
Wasn't the gist of the two blog posts from t20 and CCP's CEO 'we're done with our investigation, please move on?'
Quote:
Labour laws, double jeopardy
Meh. And the GM fired for less serious behavior has grounds for a wrongful termination suit too. I'm sure t20 can be transferred to a newly created 'snow shoveling' cell in Antarctica to provide incentive to move on if he doesn't have the decency to take a hike on his own. Which I'm sure he doesn't.
Quote:
Because of criminal acts. Cheating in a MMO with no real-world cash involved is not criminal. Still wrong, but a bad comparison.
That's also a road I'm sure CCP doesn't want to go down. They sanction trade of in-game assets owned by them for out-of-game assets which have value - GTC. This is definitely an area I'm sure none of us really wants explored for obvious reasons.
Quote:
"Your customer base is rebelling against you."
That's "several hundred of your..."
If that much, actually. My guestimate is probably 20 accounts threatened to be cancelled, and maybe nother 50 which may not review depending on resolution. Hardly earth shaking.
However, what *IS* earth shaking is the bad press Eve is getting around the net and soon in meatspace media. You know this will be sensationalized far above and beyond the drama seen here, that's what media DOES. Good luck convincing your friends to come play Eve. I know I'm not even going to try any more, I'd just be laughed at.
Quote:
Toria Nynys, devs cheating is not a material breach of the EULA as it stands. There are no grounds for a chargeback. Favouratism either. There are simply no promises on that. Some EULA's *do* have a vision statement. CCP's does not.
If people wish to debate this in front of a judge, great. I know credit card companies would rather not deal with that. Just providing the results of 'eve corruption' google search with the statement disputing the charge might be enough for their sense of product merchantability. If CCP then wishes to sue for monies owed and make the case you outline, that's certainly also possible.
Quote:
If you want to sue CCP, I'm sure you will... and I'll be booing you from the sidelines.
What the... Where did THIS come from? I've got a total of $20 invested in the game, the rest is paid for by GTC bought with ISK. I'm certainly not going to waste time on a lawsuit.
I'm speaking from a meatspace corporate management standpoint. Things must have a positive RoI to be worth addressing. If there's an actual cash bleeding as a result of not enforcing internal policies, well, the management may take a more serious attitude towards doing so in the future. They may even pass along how favortism may threaten the paychecks of those in their employ, making it less likely GMs and devs will render preferential treatment to their buddies.
This scandal will either kill Ever, or make it stronger.
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Inmate 19225004
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:34:00 -
[2529]
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
Still the HOTTEST question pending an official CCP response (Kieron?)
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:35:00 -
[2530]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Samuel Freedom
Originally by: Hindgrinder Jr
The problem now is recent spending on hardware followed by this scandal which is already costing refunds of money CCP just spent. (Good job with the visa-refunds to all!) This community is hardcore and will not be ignored.
CH
So people that have quit have got refunds from CCP through VISA ?
There's no grounds for refunds, and anyone who tries to retract their past payments via their CC comapnies are looking at breaking the law themselves, as they have made use of services rendered that they paid for.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should read the fine print in a credit card agreement. Anyone has every right to have every penny refunded to them. The product paid for was not what was advertised. If I take my car in to get an oil change, and they replace my engine without telling me beforehand, and then charge my card, you can be sure I'll get every cent back.
None of us would have been knowingly paying for BoB to use 'llegally' aquired BPOs for months after they were discovered. Especially so for every member of every corp and alliance whom BoB has used Sabre kicked out bubbles and T2 ammo against since those BPOs were handed to them by a Developer. Regardless of any of the other accusations, the EULA I agreed to did not include a caveat for that. If part of CCPs business plan included helping out certain Allainces to the detriment of every other player, they should have advertised or stated such, someplace where the paying customers could be informed of those practices.
If you are quitting, and paid with a credit card for your accounts, then get your money back. All of it.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:36:00 -
[2531]
Originally by: Evil D4rk
Avon, there is a much more serious issue that needs to be dealt with and it has not been dealt with by CCP.
T20 supplying BOB with privelidged info, and there is proof of that. But it has not been dealth with anyone in CCP or bob please tell you do not deny this happened Avon.
I can't confirm or deny it simply because I have no idea.
However, I, and many other long time players, probably know a lot more about Eve than any one Dev.
Again I'll use the example of the Expanded Cargo II "scandal". I was 99% certain that the introduction of invention would lead to the Tech I versions of these prints becomming T2 - they were already in all but name anyway .. and that was before the changes hit Sisi, let alone TQ.
I didn't need a dev to tell me that.
I know it sounds like I am being evasive, but that is not the case. Sorry.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:38:00 -
[2532]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre This whole thing disgusts me to no end. CCP and its employees are fixing the game, while I pay to be at a disadvantage.
Does anyone have a list of upcoming space MMORPG's? I want to start checking them out.
Only one I know of is Star Trek online. But no way I am going to carebearland MMO. Need a bit of a thrill to keep my interest.
Of all the other ones (including fantasy ones), Warhammer Online looks ok-ish, but I fear its a bit too soft as well. Darkfall Online is the only one to get my interest really, seems like a pretty gritty game
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Mikael Deco
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:43:00 -
[2533]
Why are devs even allowed to own T2 BPOs?!
Apparently they have inside informantion on how to increase their chances in the T2 "lottery". I have PAID money to play this game and grind missions to no end to increase standings towards research agents, all for nothing.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:44:00 -
[2534]
Edited by: Fuujin on 11/02/2007 23:42:31
Originally by: Inmate 19225004
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
Still the HOTTEST question pending an official CCP response (Kieron?)
My crystal ball says he won't get banned for some stupid convoluted reason. Fame and power within game allows you transcend the normal guidlines set out by CCP.
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:44:00 -
[2535]
Originally by: Inmate 19225004
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
Still the HOTTEST question pending an official CCP response (Kieron?)
I'm sure the answer will be something along the lines of:
"we don't have to explain ourselves to you.....noobs"
Tick Tock Molle....
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Navdaq
Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:46:00 -
[2536]
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Windle Poons
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:46:00 -
[2537]
Hmm, what can I say. I'm terribly disapiointed in YOU, thats right YOU the players. What a bunch of whiners.
I love EVE, I have been playing for years, one mistake doesn't somehow bring the universe crashing down around my head.
I think you are all just getting angry, for the simple reason that it is BoB, you dislike BoB because they are better than you, and not because they had a few lousy T2 BPOs that they would have had more than one of anyway. If it was a small corp, would you all react in the same way? I doubt it.
I think you should calm down and remember that its a game, and its CCPs game, not ours. They could pull the plug at any time.
I'm all for the Devs playing, if there happens to be a very rare occurence of cheating then so be it.
I will now do my bit to show my support for CCP, I will continue to play - as will many other people. If you feel that strongly about something this miner, then perhaps you should just leave and make the game a better place for the rest of us.
Oh, and some of your posts sicken me to the core, you should be well and truely ashamed of how you are behaving!
I am not a fanboy - I just like EVE and see how hard the devs have worked on *their* game for *our* enjoyment.
Windle Poons
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:48:00 -
[2538]
Originally by: Windle Poons Hmm, what can I say. I'm terribly disapiointed in YOU, thats right YOU the players. What a bunch of whiners.
I love EVE, I have been playing for years, one mistake doesn't somehow bring the universe crashing down around my head.
I think you are all just getting angry, for the simple reason that it is BoB, you dislike BoB because they are better than you, and not because they had a few lousy T2 BPOs that they would have had more than one of anyway. If it was a small corp, would you all react in the same way? I doubt it.
I think you should calm down and remember that its a game, and its CCPs game, not ours. They could pull the plug at any time.
I'm all for the Devs playing, if there happens to be a very rare occurence of cheating then so be it.
I will now do my bit to show my support for CCP, I will continue to play - as will many other people. If you feel that strongly about something this miner, then perhaps you should just leave and make the game a better place for the rest of us.
Oh, and some of your posts sicken me to the core, you should be well and truely ashamed of how you are behaving!
I am not a fanboy - I just like EVE and see how hard the devs have worked on *their* game for *our* enjoyment.
Windle Poons
Apparently our enjoyment took a back seat to individual dev's own interests. It may be their game, but we pay for it. It's everyone's game, not just theirs.
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:50:00 -
[2539]
Originally by: Windle Poons
I am not a fanboy - I just like EVE and see how hard the devs have worked on *their* game for *our* enjoyment.
Nope, it's not like the developers are paid for working on EVE. They only work all day to make us happy. Because EVE is a free game, right?
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Athelas Loraiel
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:50:00 -
[2540]
1. Sir Molle? You around? Do you think you should be permabanned? 2. Kieron, why did BOB region receive so many plexes in last patch, and others didnt? Don't say they were low on them prior to patch because they weren't, and why did posts tht asked for that to change dissapear? --------------
On the lookout for /restricted word that means ppl who work on the game/ in BOD disguise. |
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Milesofun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:50:00 -
[2541]
Edited by: Milesofun on 11/02/2007 23:50:25 Edited by: Milesofun on 11/02/2007 23:48:06 spelling Lmao, just saw Mr K's site you should go see it,very interesting. Shame on trying to cover it up CPP
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:52:00 -
[2542]
Toria Nynys, not as I read it. They've only addresed one area so far.
"Meh. And the GM fired for less serious behavior has grounds for a wrongful termination suit too"
? No, because his punishment was being fired. T20 was punished. To punish him again, now, is what would probably be illegal. Also, shuffling someone to meaningless duties is also illegal, it's called "constructive dismissal".
"However, what *IS* earth shaking is the bad press Eve is getting around the net and soon in meatspace media"
Heh. This isn't really a frenzy at all. I have been, in the past, a member of the gaming media - and things like Verant's CEO calling the EverQuest player morons in a conference call? THAT was big.
And CCP don't need to sue, it's what credit records are for.
And hey, you mentioned a lawsuit *shrugs*
Booster Junkie, I have every idea. It's governed by the EULA for Eve, and this is NOT a material breach. CCP would be fully justified in (and indeed has a duty to) placing the debt on your credit record if you did a chargeback. The example you use IS a material breach.
Mikael Deco, because it's just as important they play the game without restrictions as it is they don't cheat. Being out of touch with any aspect of the game is NOT good.
"Apparently they have inside informantion on how to increase their chances in the T2 "lottery"
No, that's a new accusation. If you have evidence they do beyond the fairly simple statistical analysis anyone can do, please present it.
//Maya |
Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:55:00 -
[2543]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
these questions will not die until they are answered
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://www.picoodle |
Natalie Scarlett
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:56:00 -
[2544]
In another words... This game is a fraud. You are thinking that you are buying a product (fair play) and getting another.
Many times I already thought "CCP act as an amateur in game industry". They are not taking action as a business company but more like a bunch of pals.... Now here is proof.
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Thargat
Caldari S-44 Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:59:00 -
[2545]
CCP can do as they like with this game. I don't care if they decide to help one alliance and destroy another. As far as I'm concerned they fill the game with content anyway and anyhow they like. If a GM runs amok and start handing out titans, then maybe I'll start caring. Oh, and btw, I hope all you people who complain and whine have the guts to do just what you say (quit playing). This game will be a far better one without you. It'll just be a little bit harder to beat bob without you (just a bit). =)
Keep it up CCP, best game ever.
If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you. |
Natalie Scarlett
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:59:00 -
[2546]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
"On many occasions in the USA people have gone to jail"
Because of criminal acts. Cheating in a MMO with no real-world cash involved is not criminal. Still wrong, but a bad comparison.
Sorry but I was thining the customers was paying using REAL money every single month. Damn... EVE is a free game and I didnt know about that?!
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:01:00 -
[2547]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Booster Junkie, I have every idea. It's governed by the EULA for Eve, and this is NOT a material breach. CCP would be fully justified in (and indeed has a duty to) placing the debt on your credit record if you did a chargeback. The example you use IS a material breach.
Even if you were right, the players lose nothing by trying, and have a lot to gain by trying. However, you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue with a 3rd rate internet lawyer just so you can post a bunch of lies and half-truths 10x/page for the next 50 pages. In fact, I've never wished for another player to stop posting such back of the special olympics bus drivel as much as I wish you would. Is there anything, any of us can do, to get you to stop posting for the next 10 pages or so? Isk donations? Anything?
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Kotesu
BigSushi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:01:00 -
[2548]
Edited by: Kotesu on 11/02/2007 23:57:43
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
Out of all the questions people are asking this seems like the most pressing as well. We can't really change what has happened to this point, but we can try to make sure things are handled properly in the future. This seems like a good first step to reassuring the player base. (Or, alternatively, freeing a certain player we all know).
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:01:00 -
[2549]
Originally by: Thargat CCP can do as they like with this game. I don't care if they decide to help one alliance and destroy another. As far as I'm concerned they fill the game with content anyway and anyhow they like. If a GM runs amok and start handing out titans, then maybe I'll start caring. Oh, and btw, I hope all you people who complain and whine have the guts to do just what you say (quit playing). This game will be a far better one without you. It'll just be a little bit harder to beat bob without you (just a bit). =)
Keep it up CCP, best game ever.
You don't care because it doesn't affect you.
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Oz Borne
Naughty 40 The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:02:00 -
[2550]
Instead of having the same old troll-alts twisting every thread so that CCP's integrity comes into question.
It would be refreshing, constructive & valuable to the Employees of CCP, the GM's, the helpers and the community if Helmar informed everyone what CCP's company values are.
Company values are a list of statements which best describe a companies view of itself.
An couple of examples would be...
Honest : CCP Employees and associated staff are always honest in their dealings with customers.
Respect : CCP and its associated staff treat customers with respect at all times.
CCP may have already done this, but if they havent - they should. Then all the employees and helpers know how CCP expect them to act.
This isnt another bandwagon post - im on the fence regarding the whole issue. I just feel the integrity of CCP is under the microscope at the moment.
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Jerol Troglan
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:02:00 -
[2551]
Originally by: kieron Recent allegations of developer misconduct have been the subject of much conversation in the EVE community and CCP. We have made a few recent statements to address these allegations, and listened to the community response.
In my last statement to the community, I promised that more would be forthcoming before the start of the weekend. Based on community response, we've addressed lingering questions and concerns in two different Dev Blogs.
Please read t20's Dev Blog, "On Recent Allegations" and Hellmar's Dev Blog, "The Commitment".
It is our hopes these Blogs will address the remainder of the EVE community's concerns over these allegations.
Update: 10 Feb at 0140 GMT I have created a thread where I will address questions from the community. This is so my responses do not become lost among the community replies. The thread will be locked so further answers will not be difficult to find.
Thank you, Richard Nixon...
Seriously, do you believe that any thinking adult could possibly believe the obvious damage control you are spewing out at this time? Do you want to fix this? Because I can tell you how to fix this -- it's fairly simple:
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Right now you have a situation where, for months, there have been veiled (or overt) accusations that CCP developers have characters in certain alliances and that their presence confers an unfair advantage to that alliance. Initially, these accusations were met with silence from CCP. It was not until you were caught in the act, that you responded, and then in a minimalist, damage control fashion.
I'm older and a bit cynnical, but I know what's right. You want to fix this? Come clean and identify the characters. Take your lumps, delete them, whatever... and then let the community move on.
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:02:00 -
[2552]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre This whole thing disgusts me to no end. CCP and its employees are fixing the game, while I pay to be at a disadvantage.
Does anyone have a list of upcoming space MMORPG's? I want to start checking them out.
http://www.startrekonline.com/
live long and prosper. probably not my kind of game. I want a neverwinter nights of space type of game :-D you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Loftur sterki
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:04:00 -
[2553]
How come so few Bob's comment on this thread, usually there are hundreds of'em postin specially on a thread including themselves. It would be good to have the bob leadership perspective on the whole matter... tellu us the truth now "sir" . ** Grumpy old Viking ** |
dantes inferno
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:05:00 -
[2554]
now the tech 2 bpos inthemselves were nothing, devs cheating is no great suprise..what is the major concern is CCP handling of it. the fact this was known 6 months ago and the bpo's left in place is very bad, the fact that ccp attempted to sweep this under the carpet until community preassur made them fess up is very bad. The fact that molle was able to post RL info about any player for any reason and remain unpunished is disgusting...now if i was to find his rl info and post it..how long would it be for me to get a perma ban?? shall we find out?
Until ccp once again start acting in a honest and unbiast method (which means the rule which apply to a 1 day old noob should also apply to a 4 year old alliance head) the trust of majority will be shaken in them. atm eve is safe..apathy will see to that, but i wonder how much people will question playing WOD??? with ccp reputation as its slowly getting to be...it was word of mouth which created eve and ccp and if ccp dont get their heads out of their never regions and stop this bs...it will be word of mouth which will kill them.
as for me, ive sent a question to kieron and will wait one month for a reply..if i get a honest and spin free reply..no matter the answer my account stays..no reply or a corporate bs one..my account goes. all im after in honesty and equality, but prehaps that is to much to ask of ccp if they are truley the cowboys they appear to be atm.
RAM is recruiting |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:06:00 -
[2555]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 00:03:11
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Maya Rkell Booster Junkie, I have every idea. It's governed by the EULA for Eve, and this is NOT a material breach. CCP would be fully justified in (and indeed has a duty to) placing the debt on your credit record if you did a chargeback. The example you use IS a material breach.
Even if you were right, the players lose nothing by trying, and have a lot to gain by trying. However, you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue with a 3rd rate internet lawyer just so you can post a bunch of lies and half-truths 10x/page for the next 50 pages. In fact, I've never wished for another player to stop posting such back of the special olympics bus drivel as much as I wish you would. Is there anything, any of us can do, to get you to stop posting for the next 10 pages or so? Isk donations? Anything?
No, they have a lot to lose by trying. They can get their credit record damaged, and have to pay off the debt they owe CCP plus interest the next time they try and use their credit.
And I'm pleased you're not going to try and sue me. I'm sorry that you can't handle someone actually pointing out you're wrong...not that that'll stop me of course. You have no right under the very rules you're supposedly trying to get upheld to do so. Fair handed, fair handed.
Loftur sterki, practically ANY alliance leaders. Silence is deafening, isn't it.
//Maya |
Marachus
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:08:00 -
[2556]
Well just canceled my subscription. Guess next MMO I was looking forward to was Conan, so I guess I'll be without one for a while =/
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:09:00 -
[2557]
Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
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sableye
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:14:00 -
[2558]
meh does'nt really bother me, my 3 accounts won'nt be going anywhere soon, theres alot of cheating that goes on in this game and while I don;nt like what t20 did it did;nt really affect that much really and I am sure now ccp have a hnadle on situation and I doubt we'll ever know everything. Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Oz Borne
Naughty 40 The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:18:00 -
[2559]
Originally by: dantes inferno the trust of majority will be shaken in them. atm eve is safe..apathy will see to that, but i wonder how much people will question playing WOD???
I agree with this and im glad to see other characters posting with their mains - too many alts for my liking.
All "patrons" want, is to feel like the people in charge have integrity.
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SweetSerenity
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:19:00 -
[2560]
Edited by: SweetSerenity on 12/02/2007 00:17:17 Ok so I haven't read the whole thread. Several good arguments have been made though that at least several people within BoB, not just RKK, knew about the devs doing them favors like this. It would seem to me that at the very minimum those higher-ups within BoB who like to make public postings here about war progress or who their next target is, etc., would definitely have known.
Some say no?
Then this begs the question of who vouched for the devs characters to be recruited into BoB? Pretty much all BoB corps have the same policy of admitting new members: have a lot of SP, be a good PvP'er, and know someone already in BoB. So who did the dev know, or did this person just make contact with BoB corp leaders and say "hey I'm a dev, I can get you all free stuff if you just let me in"?
I'm sorry, but when I sit and think about it for a minute this isn't tinfoil hattery speaking. To me it's the tip of an iceberg and calls into question a lot of progress made by BoB in the past year. Remember a lot of people were paranoid about this last year and they were laughed off for dreaming up the new conspiracy theory of the week. Well now at least one of them is true.
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Saint Lazarus
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:20:00 -
[2561]
Wow im glad to come back to EvE after a little break only to see this BS
Its a complete disgrace really but what can we do, im not sure I'd go as far as quittin forever but CCP obviously just took a nosedive in popularity and trust worthyness in my eyes. But as long as EvE still entertains me I'll put up with our corrupt dev team...
:insert cool signature here: |
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:23:00 -
[2562]
Originally by: Thargat CCP can do as they like with this game. I don't care if they decide to help one alliance and destroy another. As far as I'm concerned they fill the game with content anyway and anyhow they like. If a GM runs amok and start handing out titans, then maybe I'll start caring. Oh, and btw, I hope all you people who complain and whine have the guts to do just what you say (quit playing). This game will be a far better one without you. It'll just be a little bit harder to beat bob without you (just a bit). =)
Keep it up CCP, best game ever.
Oh dear so if you and your mates and a whole bunch of other people spent months maybe years building an allaince 'legit' like and then some DEV(s) came and nerfed all your efforts in favour of there mates, just because they can(using cheating methods), you wouldn't be annoyed ? whoa !
P.S. I won't be quitting im going casual on EVE now, only one account for me not three anymore, through there actions(and lack of) CCP have shown that they don't appreciate honest hardcore gamers. For me EVE is a very Good casual game now.
/me goes back to the search.
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:24:00 -
[2563]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 23:27:44 ....but I can certainly comment on "At Will Employment" - it's an artifact found only in the USA. Other countries do not require unions to convey rights onto workers.
In particular, Iceland is an EEA member and has implimented much the same employment and social directives as full EU members.
I did not know that, and thank you for clarifying.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:26:00 -
[2564]
Originally by: Alumion Edited by: Alumion on 11/02/2007 22:50:12
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Sounds like they'd sack him nowfor not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
They couldn't remove the BPOs without attracting attention, so in order to contain the situation they left it there? And what about the other 4 BPOs? Supposedly 10 of them were acquired, but only 6 confessed. Was there really only 6 of them or they're further covering up, you decide.
-edited for spelling mistakes
So you're saying CCP knew, they just decided not to take action in order to keep the rest of us from finding out.
Somehow, that really doesn't make it better.
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Heavy Drinker
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:28:00 -
[2565]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 22:25:21 Heavy Drinker, yep. "No refunds". You agreed to this, and a dev cheating does not constitude a material breach of the EULA (since it's not mentioned there). No chance, in other words.
Thank you for a great attempt at answering some of the post's in here by the way have seen most you have had a go at, good to see someone is trying.
Not sure about where you live but there have been several actions regarding 'no refund' mainly coming from stores that refuse to give money back only store credit etc and this has been deemed unjust. So agreeing to an 'in store' policy has no bearing on the basic's, we have been paying for a product, not receiving the agreed upon product.
I notice a few posts back the word fraud mentioned this is a can of worms to be avoided but may be closer to the facts at hand if CCP knew and choose to cover up these actions for six months fraudulent activity may have taken place and funds may have been obtained under false pretenses not to sure on this sounds scary though.
No doubt CCP have already consulted there legal team to get guidance which is why we are not seeing any more responses i would guess if this helps people digest the fact we are been ignored.
Anyway its all for nothing really we will move on BOB will continue and **** happens, but i will say just from reading all the post's here if CCP wanted i reckon 50% of the posters could be banned for EULA violations so everyone be careful.
I also need to say no-one should in anyway proceed with legal action or ask for refunds from CCP.
Thanks Maya for some very constructive comments and answers and for everyone else having a say just think if we hit 200 pages it will be a record.
Drinker.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:31:00 -
[2566]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nils Bohr Edited by: Nils Bohr on 11/02/2007 22:45:13
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Seems like they'd sack him now for not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
The whole thing seems like a bit of a double bluff to me.
T20 told RKK that he had to leave because his identity as a Dev had been revealed. This is around the same time that CCP claim they investigated him, and discovered his wrong-doing.
I think he had to leave as a result of the CCP investigation, and not because "some alt unmasked him" as he claimed.
That way CCP get him out of RKK without having to confess to having a cheating Dev on their hands.
That's my take on it, but that is all it is.
And left the BPOs with RKK. Darned convenient, that.
Here's a question for you, Avon: it's clear from the RKK forum posts that RKK leadership knew t20 was a dev. It seems from Blacklight's post here that -- unless he's a liar -- they never told him.
So why are they still in your alliance?
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:34:00 -
[2567]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
my corp forum and my alliance forum is not strictly eve online forums. Because we play a particular game doesnt mean that we give anyone rights to lie their way into our forums to cause us harm. We dont want you there. I dont care if it is called pretexting , hacking or spying. Just stay away or cross an ethical line that makes you a bastard with very low moral standards. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Liu
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:39:00 -
[2568]
reading hellmar's blog, it seems that not only T20's characters were outted, but some more also. for those of us that didnt go to external sources of information, i would like a list of characters that were removed from the game, the corp/aliances they belonged and the dev behind those chars. i find it very unpleasant to believe that i should read the forum of a banned EVE player to get that info.
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: Various Players -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why were <players> from <corporation/alliance> not banned for account sharing due to being part of a cynonet network if t20 was managing the network of an alliance? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
If anyone has evidence of account sharing in a cynonet network on the part of players, submit a petition. The GM team will investigage the evidence in the petition and take appropriate action.
come on kieron!!! you fooling us? T20 chars were really removed from rkk before he had knowledge of any cynonet? rkk capital fleet commander didnt know about it? but there is more. rumours say that kugutsumen sent rkk's forum db to CCP to investigate it. even if you wouldnt admit having read it, even if you wouldn't use any info on there to justify any disciplinary action, you could still use those lovely EULA clauses to ban all rkk directorship for something we all know its true.
but really, that's not all. ok, T20 is out there, he's been out there for 6 months already. but, for sure there are more devs there, the same as there are more devs on any other alliance. this devs dont know about cynonet either?
please CCP, be truthful to us now. dont hide anything, not this time. it's gotten too big. nothing has been done correctly. there has been need of illegal hacking mesures to bring this to light, or else BoB would still have 6 ilegal BPO's to this day. do not fail us. tell us everything, we need to know. it's the game we love.
the scandal is already everywhere. any major or small game's forum on internet has published the news. and the info is almost everywhere the same "one CCP dev cheated and CCP hid it for 6 months until a hacker got the db from a famous corporation. CCP banned the hacker and tried to pull it all under the rug, but the community didn't allow it"
is that how you wanna be remembered? come on!!! let's clean this mess. tell us everything you've done to compromised parties (outted dev's chars, BoB leaders posting real life info, cynonet, acount buying for real money, complex renting to ebayers) and then everybody's oppinion on CCP will change from "why are they still hidding info? surely this is not everything there is" to "oh my god, this was a f***ing nightmare. no wonder they were affraid to release all this to the public. i hope CCP recovers from this deep injury"
please, the damage is already done. the only way to heal it is by exposing everything to the community so that we can make our faith in you grow again.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:40:00 -
[2569]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
my corp forum and my alliance forum is not strictly eve online forums. Because we play a particular game doesnt mean that we give anyone rights to lie their way into our forums to cause us harm. We dont want you there. I dont care if it is called pretexting , hacking or spying. Just stay away or cross an ethical line that makes you a bastard with very low moral standards.
didn't bob use spies to get into their enemies forums and even resorting to posting the information and screen shots of the information?
sirmolle posted RL information and nothing happened??
ya, we can see how things work ccp...
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Deepspace Wanderer
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:42:00 -
[2570]
Anybody get the feeling that CCP is going to take a look at this thread on MOnday morning and go
"Oh shi.....this didn't burn out the way we hoped....." not a good thing for Eve |
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Booster Junkie
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:43:00 -
[2571]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 00:03:11
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Maya Rkell Booster Junkie, I have every idea. It's governed by the EULA for Eve, and this is NOT a material breach. CCP would be fully justified in (and indeed has a duty to) placing the debt on your credit record if you did a chargeback. The example you use IS a material breach.
Even if you were right, the players lose nothing by trying, and have a lot to gain by trying. However, you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue with a 3rd rate internet lawyer just so you can post a bunch of lies and half-truths 10x/page for the next 50 pages. In fact, I've never wished for another player to stop posting such back of the special olympics bus drivel as much as I wish you would. Is there anything, any of us can do, to get you to stop posting for the next 10 pages or so? Isk donations? Anything?
No, they have a lot to lose by trying. They can get their credit record damaged, and have to pay off the debt they owe CCP plus interest the next time they try and use their credit.
And I'm pleased you're not going to try and sue me. I'm sorry that you can't handle someone actually pointing out you're wrong...not that that'll stop me of course. You have no right under the very rules you're supposedly trying to get upheld to do so. Fair handed, fair handed.
You are still wrong, and now, lying. That's pretty sad, but not nearly as sad as your reading comprehension, because I never came anywhere close to talking about suing anyone. You should really stop posting. Every word you write continues to further embarass the entire human race.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:45:00 -
[2572]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
? No, because his punishment was being fired. T20 was punished. To punish him again, now, is what would probably be illegal. Also, shuffling someone to meaningless duties is also illegal, it's called "constructive dismissal".
Again with the red herrings. Punishment has absolutely nothing to do with this, and you know it. CCP has a zero-tolerance non-negotiable termination policy in the case of one employee, and a negotiable 'punishment' policy in the case of another.
As an amazing show of bad judgement they retained an employee with demonstrated lack of moral fiber in a position that most likely has access to sensitive customer details and credit card data. Geniuses.
Quote:
Booster Junkie, I have every idea. It's governed by the EULA for Eve, and this is NOT a material breach. CCP would be fully justified in (and indeed has a duty to) placing the debt on your credit record if you did a chargeback. The example you use IS a material breach.
In a perfect world, things may go the way you envision -- fair courts or mediation, and so on.
In the world I live in where the skies are blue, the very very large credit card company would tell CCP to eat the cost simply to avoid being embroiled in the resulting mess. The alternative is loss of ability to process credit card payments. And they'd get away with it, no matter how unfair that is.
Or CCP's counsel may advise against trying to test the selectively enforced EULA in a court. At any rate, it's worth trying.
Quote:
"Apparently they have inside informantion on how to increase their chances in the T2 "lottery"
No, that's a new accusation. If you have evidence they do beyond the fairly simple statistical analysis anyone can do, please present it.
And unfortunately the only ones capable of doing this analysis and a code review are CCP themselves. All we have is a perception that only the 'cool kids' get the good toys.
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:46:00 -
[2573]
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT ---
My Movies
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alpheon
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:47:00 -
[2574]
I also would encourage the full disclosure of characters who are owned by devs.
this would encourage fair play and remove any chance that any of them would take advantage of their role as devs.
Any abuse or patterns of abuse of their powers would be easy to spot.
I see no reason why those who make the game should not be held to a higher standard then of their player base.
If they have the power, they should be trusted to have it.
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BigDave
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:52:00 -
[2575]
Quote: Anybody get the feeling that CCP is going to take a look at this thread on MOnday morning and go
"Oh shi.....this didn't burn out the way we hoped....."
Anyone wonder why CCP didn't feel this issue was worth following, and responding to, over the weekend? Anyone wonder why summer vacations were so sacrosanct that senior amagement couldn't be involved when this first happened last year? Anyone wonder why "love of the game" doesn't extend to a commitment beyond the minimum work week? Maybe I just have a skewed perspective as a workaholic American, but I can't imagine being the CEO who wrote a "damage control" post as Hellmar did, then went home for the weekend to let standing fires blaze out of control. Even if he had other obligations, how could no one be available to work over a period of highest customer usage, especially under such circumstances? This shows me there is insufficient commitment to the product. CCP, please show me something to the contrary.
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Vas Arach'ta
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:53:00 -
[2576]
What's so disappointing to me is that people in this community are so anxious to judge the integrity of the entire company based on the mistake of one person. I hope your families get judged with all the same malice whenever it is you eventually screw up. If I'm going to leave the game for any reason, it'll be to distance myself from doomsaying numpties such as yourself.
Next, if devs are still playing in alliances (and I certainly hope they still are), then this fiasco detracts from those who've earned their accomplishments in the game universe legitimately, without the help of Sabre BPOs and whatever other tosh it is that's making all the simpletons panic around here.
And for those of you who are convinced that this is all part of some broader coverup, please...do the rest of us a favor and get out of here, all of you. Go catch up on your supermarket tabloids. There ought to be enough conspiracy theories in there to hold you over.
/V
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:53:00 -
[2577]
Edited by: Liquid Vision on 12/02/2007 00:53:09
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nils Bohr Edited by: Nils Bohr on 11/02/2007 22:45:13
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 138031 Right im slightly confused over this, When T20 was removed from BOB 6 months ago, was it for the reason of somne bob members knowing his identy ? If that was the case why would CCP have known of the BPO situation?
So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Seems like they'd sack him now for not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
The whole thing seems like a bit of a double bluff to me.
T20 told RKK that he had to leave because his identity as a Dev had been revealed. This is around the same time that CCP claim they investigated him, and discovered his wrong-doing.
I think he had to leave as a result of the CCP investigation, and not because "some alt unmasked him" as he claimed.
That way CCP get him out of RKK without having to confess to having a cheating Dev on their hands.
That's my take on it, but that is all it is.
Just visit kugut's website. . .it's back up now. Look up the thread about you and your friends' propaganda tactics and your name is plastered all over it.
Of course I'm sure kugut is COMPLETELY LYING about the ENTIRE thing and you and BOB are completely innocent. Seriously, this one particular instance is basically non-debatable since BOB leadership has admitted time and again that they use propaganda tactics on EVE-O and that they metagame outside of Tranquility. So, either you are a knowing participant in the propaganda (which at THIS point would be just SICKENING since you and your fellow Bobbits know that your leadership was guilt on some level) or members of your alliance are tossing your name around in association with some REALLY shady and gross actions. Either way. . .:BARF:
Sad really considering how many KNOWN BOB alts have been posting here trying to act like it's no big deal and convince others the same. No telling how many of these alts we DON'T know belong to BOB as well. That's why I assert that the ENTIRE ALLIANCE is culpable at this point. If you're a member of BOB you should have either A) Quit BOB or B) Kicked your leadership out and made a statement about coming clean and starting on the road to recovery. Instead, your glorious "I should be banned but I'm a favored son so I ain't" leader, Molle comes on here and announces how you guys are gonna clean the rest of EVE off of the 0.0 map and you all adopt [DEV] tags and half your alliance makes a huge alt brigade to talk down anyone that thinks you guys are cheats and liars. Classic!
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:56:00 -
[2578]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
What's so disappointing to me is that people in this community are so anxious to judge the integrity of the entire company based on the mistake of one person. I hope your families get judged with all the same malice whenever it is you eventually screw up. If I'm going to leave the game for any reason, it'll be to distance myself from doomsaying numpties such as yourself.
Next, if devs are still playing in alliances (and I certainly hope they still are), then this fiasco detracts from those who've earned their accomplishments in the game universe legitimately, without the help of Sabre BPOs and whatever other tosh it is that's making all the simpletons panic around here.
And for those of you who are convinced that this is all part of some broader coverup, please...do the rest of us a favor and get out of here, all of you. Go catch up on your supermarket tabloids. There ought to be enough conspiracy theories in there to hold you over.
/V
Seriously. . .you're ridiculous and you should crawl back in your hole. Now. Go.
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Katja Frostbane
Amarr The Valkyries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:57:00 -
[2579]
I can't help but wonder how badly CCP screwed the pooch by remaining silent? I'd wager a nice shiny shuttle that had they come clean, 6-7 months ago, then all of this would have been prevented.
I don't care what happens in 0.0 when its all said and done, as thats not my bag. I like my little corner of empty space just fine.
Hows this work for everyone?
1) Character sharing happens - everyone (it seems) does it, so its no longer against the EULA.
2) Who knew what/who/how whatever happend in the past, get over it. It can't change.
3) CCP makes an actual to goodness statement about the whole mess, rather than "We are looking into it". Lets be real here, CCP you're not exactly in the best position with truth saying right about now.
4) Let whats his name kuglehorn or whatever have his main back. You're banning him for revealing secrets that didn't happen on your server. Yes it made your pets look stupid, along you with it. If you're not banning sir jigglepuff for blatently breaking YOUR rules on YOUR OWN FORUMS, then you're being a total hypocrit, and deserve to be buried under all the poo thats being thrown.
5) Say your sorry, and mean it this time.
6) Bring back the snowball launchers, with unmelted snowballs. Then we'll forgive you.
I give three rats about who's got what BPO. Heck we all know the world isn't fair. What made you think EVE would be too?
And finally, I think its great that this is such a glowing endorsement of going to 0.0 space. I can see the signs now "Come to 0.0, where even our own employees will screw you!"
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Blackie Moldar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:57:00 -
[2580]
I myself will wait til monday to see if any post from CCP. it is the weekend and God forbid they work overtime on this.
I hope a fair option can be talked about here.
I want to know what they are going to do with the bpo's this lottery system suck been trying for 2 years with 0 offers and u watch others with dozen t2 BPO's I am sick of trying R&D how they going to fix the 6 or 8 or 10 Bpo's whatever... this is a sad day in Eve
P.S. I want to here it from CCP.
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:57:00 -
[2581]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
What's so disappointing to me is that people in this community are so anxious to judge the integrity of the entire company based on the mistake of one person.
/V
Actually the judgements about the integrity of CCP are based on the fact that they KNEW about the cheating and denied it for more than six months.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:02:00 -
[2582]
Originally by: Booster Junkie You have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should read the fine print in a credit card agreement. Anyone has every right to have every penny refunded to them. The product paid for was not what was advertised. If I take my car in to get an oil change, and they replace my engine without telling me beforehand, and then charge my card, you can be sure I'll get every cent back.
None of us would have been knowingly paying for BoB to use 'llegally' aquired BPOs for months after they were discovered. Especially so for every member of every corp and alliance whom BoB has used Sabre kicked out bubbles and T2 ammo against since those BPOs were handed to them by a Developer. Regardless of any of the other accusations, the EULA I agreed to did not include a caveat for that. If part of CCPs business plan included helping out certain Allainces to the detriment of every other player, they should have advertised or stated such, someplace where the paying customers could be informed of those practices.
If you are quitting, and paid with a credit card for your accounts, then get your money back. All of it.
Point out where in the EULA or TOS for EVE that would hold up in court. CCP didn't purposely deny you anything, and I hope that anyone who tries to scam them gets nailed to the wall.
You do realize if your abusrd claims had any factual backing, it would annhilate the MMO industry instantly, right? Any MMo where there was cheating would give grounds fr a refund. Anywhere that people are buying gold or items, would be grounds for a refund.
You would also have no grounds to be able to reclaim anything from before June, as there is no proof of wrongdoing before then anyways. Your claim that the 'CCP business plan' includes helping certain groups, would kill your case as soon as the devs from other groups started revealing themselves, or do you think that t20's actions were sanctioned by CCP, and that they're only in BoB?
And I refute your absurd claims of 'no-one would have been knowingly paying', because the simple fact of the matter is, the vast majority would've done so, because they didn't care.
Just like they didn't care that Goonswarm cheated, or that RA/aAa abused the Angel plexes for billions, if not trillions of ISK.
Tell me booster, if I go back to threads on those subjects, will I find outrage from you? You'll find it from me, but I carry no bias in these 3 situations, nor do I share rash judgment like many others have been.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:02:00 -
[2583]
Originally by: BigDave [ Even if he had other obligations, how could no one be available to work over a period of highest customer usage, especially under such circumstances? This shows me there is insufficient commitment to the product. CCP, please show me something to the contrary.
You couldn't be more wrong. Here's the likely scenario: CEO goes to corporate councel. Corporate councel takes one look at the admission of guilt by t20 and admission of unprofessionalism dealing with it in the CEO blog, grabs his head, screams, and begings chanting "SHUT UP SHUT UP."
The first advice any legal eagle will give you in this situation is 'clam up, say NOTHING.' Yes, it's a bad perception, but at least you won't run the risk of shoving your foot further into your mouth. The gamble of partial disclosure and a plea to trust, forgive and forget did not pan out. Now it's a liability.
The next communication I expect from CCP will be very carefuly crafted, and consist mostly of corporate nonsense buzzwords.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:02:00 -
[2584]
Originally by: BigDave ..... Anyone wonder why summer vacations were so sacrosanct that senior amagement couldn't be involved when this first happened last year? .....
Noone is wondering about that. Kierion is telling a so obvious lie that his reputation as community manager is taking a serious nosedive. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:04:00 -
[2585]
Originally by: alpheon I also would encourage the full disclosure of characters who are owned by devs.
this would encourage fair play and remove any chance that any of them would take advantage of their role as devs.
Any abuse or patterns of abuse of their powers would be easy to spot.
I see no reason why those who make the game should not be held to a higher standard then of their player base.
If they have the power, they should be trusted to have it.
I would agree with that, but then everyone would want a DEV for Christmas. I think it is fair to see who is out there, and that they are out there.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:04:00 -
[2586]
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
OK, so who wants to place bets- which developer is Sir Molle?!
I mean seriously, K gets perma-banned, plenty of other players have been banned (perma-, temp or forum) over the years, many for much smaller offenses. Yet Molle doesn't get a whisker? Surely we're talking a forum ban (for spreading personal information on the forums) as a bare minimum- perma-bans have been issued for far less.
Either we're all missing a really important point, or Molle is a dev, and so is immune from standard operating procedures.
Maybe.
Seriously though, this needs addressing. Kieron- make it so! -----------------------------------------------
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Nighlighted
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:06:00 -
[2587]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: BigDave ..... Anyone wonder why summer vacations were so sacrosanct that senior amagement couldn't be involved when this first happened last year? .....
Noone is wondering about that. Kierion is telling a so obvious lie that his reputation as community manager is taking a serious nosedive.
Probally happened when most people were gone on vacation, not just the senior management. Granted I do not know why this was buried, but I have a feeling that soon we will know more of what happened behind the scenes then we would like.
Granted the Community has nearly entered the Rage period akin to other MMOs that shall remain nameless for this post. I can only imagine how the DEV team is feeling right now.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:08:00 -
[2588]
Originally by: Oz Borne Instead of having the same old troll-alts twisting every thread so that CCP's integrity comes into question.
It would be refreshing, constructive & valuable to the Employees of CCP, the GM's, the helpers and the community if Helmar informed everyone what CCP's company values are.
Company values are a list of statements which best describe a companies view of itself.
An couple of examples would be...
Honest : CCP Employees and associated staff are always honest in their dealings with customers.
Respect : CCP and its associated staff treat customers with respect at all times.
CCP may have already done this, but if they havent - they should. Then all the employees and helpers know how CCP expect them to act.
This isnt another bandwagon post - im on the fence regarding the whole issue. I just feel the integrity of CCP is under the microscope at the moment.
Hey, those would be great values for any corporation.
When do you think CCP should look into them?
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Benny Hill
Caldari Deceased Inc
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:08:00 -
[2589]
Edited by: Benny Hill on 12/02/2007 01:11:31 This should be added to the backstory of Eve;
well, just do a google seahc for "the escapist" and "jumpgate" and "eve"
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:08:00 -
[2590]
Originally by: Toria Nynys
Originally by: BigDave [ Even if he had other obligations, how could no one be available to work over a period of highest customer usage, especially under such circumstances? This shows me there is insufficient commitment to the product. CCP, please show me something to the contrary.
You couldn't be more wrong. Here's the likely scenario: CEO goes to corporate councel. Corporate councel takes one look at the admission of guilt by t20 and admission of unprofessionalism dealing with it in the CEO blog, grabs his head, screams, and begings chanting "SHUT UP SHUT UP."
The first advice any legal eagle will give you in this situation is 'clam up, say NOTHING.' Yes, it's a bad perception, but at least you won't run the risk of shoving your foot further into your mouth. The gamble of partial disclosure and a plea to trust, forgive and forget did not pan out. Now it's a liability.
The next communication I expect from CCP will be very carefuly crafted, and consist mostly of corporate nonsense buzzwords.
Yes, I cannot wait for that corporate crafted steaming pile of vague running in circles BS.
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thoradh
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:09:00 -
[2591]
Molle will not be able to post further here tonight people...
He's logged... > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! > |
Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:10:00 -
[2592]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
OK, so who wants to place bets- which developer is Sir Molle?!
I mean seriously, K gets perma-banned, plenty of other players have been banned (perma-, temp or forum) over the years, many for much smaller offenses. Yet Molle doesn't get a whisker? Surely we're talking a forum ban (for spreading personal information on the forums) as a bare minimum- perma-bans have been issued for far less.
Either we're all missing a really important point, or Molle is a dev, and so is immune from standard operating procedures.
Maybe.
Seriously though, this needs addressing. Kieron- make it so!
If anything it will work out to merely a forum ban, a way for ccp to appear as if they're administering some form of punishment.
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:12:00 -
[2593]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
What's so disappointing to me is that people in this community are so anxious to judge the integrity of the entire company based on the mistake of one person. I hope your families get judged with all the same malice whenever it is you eventually screw up. If I'm going to leave the game for any reason, it'll be to distance myself from doomsaying numpties such as yourself.
Next, if devs are still playing in alliances (and I certainly hope they still are), then this fiasco detracts from those who've earned their accomplishments in the game universe legitimately, without the help of Sabre BPOs and whatever other tosh it is that's making all the simpletons panic around here.
And for those of you who are convinced that this is all part of some broader coverup, please...do the rest of us a favor and get out of here, all of you. Go catch up on your supermarket tabloids. There ought to be enough conspiracy theories in there to hold you over.
/V
This is what I don't get people are still willing to pull the 'Tin foil hat' routine after all that has happened!! Its staggering it really is lmao.
Tis funny though the last alt that said somethng like this was about as old as you aswell 3 and half years in a NPC corp aswell like.
your BIO is ok though.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:17:00 -
[2594]
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
The OUTED characters would very much have a bearing on politics.
What if they fullfilled that absurd demand, and suddenly we find out there's 30 devs in ISS, and 50 in IAC?
What happens when suddenly half of EVE has wardecced ISS and IAC, quite coincidentally Im sure?
There are countless people who would go out of their way to make life hell for devs when they try and play the game. There's a reason no MMO lets players know who their devs play casually. IT AFFECTS PERCEPTION.
If every dev were outed and found to be in SWA, people would ***** that the devs being in SWA is the reason SWA can't be wardecced.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Nighlighted
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:17:00 -
[2595]
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Hey, those would be great values for any corporation.
When do you think CCP should look into them?
Well they have left this thread open...
Plus the more and more I learn things and hear of things it looks like a lot of it was less with CCP.
Wither it be Rumors of ASCN's POSs being turned off, or on how the Titan was killed, or even of the Cryonet to move ships around, and not known about until now for those of us outside the Allience structure. It seems that BOB has used each part of the game to their end.
Plus there have to be members of BOB who are wondering if their wins were from their skills or the DEVs interferance...
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:31:00 -
[2596]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
The OUTED characters would very much have a bearing on politics.
What if they fullfilled that absurd demand, and suddenly we find out there's 30 devs in ISS, and 50 in IAC?
What happens when suddenly half of EVE has wardecced ISS and IAC, quite coincidentally Im sure?
There are countless people who would go out of their way to make life hell for devs when they try and play the game. There's a reason no MMO lets players know who their devs play casually. IT AFFECTS PERCEPTION.
If every dev were outed and found to be in SWA, people would ***** that the devs being in SWA is the reason SWA can't be wardecced.
Read the whole post.....part of the process is removing those characters. If these characters truly have nothing to hide, this shouldn't be an issue. Show them, then delete/rename them.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:32:00 -
[2597]
Xthril Ranger, that's your problem then - certainly it multiplies the risks, and you need to have layers of protection within your own organisation. Usually "spies" are existing members of corps who are annoyed with the leadership and rat them out to other corps and alliances.
Booster Junkie, so you ARE going to sue me. Okay. Bring it.
Toria Nynys, you don't know what CCP's policy is. Neither do I. And if you have evidence of financial fraud, you are REQUIRED in many countries to report it.
And CCP will pay the cost then put a charge on your credit record. That's how it works when you leave bad debts behind you. It dosn't GO to court.
And no, the statistical analysis which gives you the best statistical chance of winning the lottery is both simple and doable with data from a sticky on these very forums. And no, I'm not going to help you do math you should of learned by 14.
alpheon, so only effectively harrassing them out the game and being unable to play it, then. Right. Out of touch devs is the worst possible thing they could do. A witch hunt never lasts more than several weeks. Out of touch devs affect a game from thereon in.
Liquid Vision, is he still infecting people with trojans? You are basing your entire credability on the worlds of a criminal. Classic. And yes, I'm SURE you can't take people like Vas Arach'ta who dare to undermine your histerical witch hunt.
//Maya |
Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:33:00 -
[2598]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Booster Junkie You have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should read the fine print in a credit card agreement. Anyone has every right to have every penny refunded to them. The product paid for was not what was advertised. If I take my car in to get an oil change, and they replace my engine without telling me beforehand, and then charge my card, you can be sure I'll get every cent back.
None of us would have been knowingly paying for BoB to use 'llegally' aquired BPOs for months after they were discovered. Especially so for every member of every corp and alliance whom BoB has used Sabre kicked out bubbles and T2 ammo against since those BPOs were handed to them by a Developer. Regardless of any of the other accusations, the EULA I agreed to did not include a caveat for that. If part of CCPs business plan included helping out certain Allainces to the detriment of every other player, they should have advertised or stated such, someplace where the paying customers could be informed of those practices.
If you are quitting, and paid with a credit card for your accounts, then get your money back. All of it.
Point out where in the EULA or TOS for EVE that would hold up in court. CCP didn't purposely deny you anything, and I hope that anyone who tries to scam them gets nailed to the wall.
I don't think you are in any position to tell any of us, factually, what CCP has been doing behind closed doors. We wouldn't even know about the BPOs with Kugutsumen's efforts, so you should probably stop talking.
Quote: You do realize if your abusrd claims had any factual backing, it would annhilate the MMO industry instantly, right? Any MMo where there was cheating would give grounds fr a refund. Anywhere that people are buying gold or items, would be grounds for a refund.
You aren't very smart, are you?
Quote: You would also have no grounds to be able to reclaim anything from before June, as there is no proof of wrongdoing before then anyways. Your claim that the 'CCP business plan' includes helping certain groups, would kill your case as soon as the devs from other groups started revealing themselves, or do you think that t20's actions were sanctioned by CCP, and that they're only in BoB?
You seem to have never done a chargeback, and have zero idea how credit card companies work.
Quote: And I refute your absurd claims of 'no-one would have been knowingly paying', because the simple fact of the matter is, the vast majority would've done so, because they didn't care.
Just like they didn't care that Goonswarm cheated, or that RA/aAa abused the Angel plexes for billions, if not trillions of ISK.
Tell me booster, if I go back to threads on those subjects, will I find outrage from you? You'll find it from me, but I carry no bias in these 3 situations, nor do I share rash judgment like many others have been.
You won't, because typically I post with my main. In this case, I don't think Blacklight would appreciate me doing so.
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Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:34:00 -
[2599]
I wonder what would be Hippoking's opinion about all this ...
I also wonder if Killer8 will make a new movie |
Jerol Troglan
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:35:00 -
[2600]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
The OUTED characters would very much have a bearing on politics.
What if they fullfilled that absurd demand, and suddenly we find out there's 30 devs in ISS, and 50 in IAC?
What happens when suddenly half of EVE has wardecced ISS and IAC, quite coincidentally Im sure?
There are countless people who would go out of their way to make life hell for devs when they try and play the game. There's a reason no MMO lets players know who their devs play casually. IT AFFECTS PERCEPTION.
If every dev were outed and found to be in SWA, people would ***** that the devs being in SWA is the reason SWA can't be wardecced.
It's meant to affect perception, Malthros... that is precisely the point.
Because the current perception is that developer characters hold prominent positions in major alliances; that those developers are using their positions to confer an unfair advantage to those alliances; and that the developers are witholding this information from the patron user base. This sets them apart from every other MMO I know of -- again, they were caught in the act and they need to make this right as soon as possible.
The only way to dispel these allegations is to come clean and declare who the characters are/were. And if it does turn out that developer characters hold (or held in the past) high positions in certain alliances, then my opinion would be that those characters should be deleted. The alliance should continue to exist and it should retain all of its holdings. If players organize an action against an alliance they perceive may have had an unfair advantage -- so be it. I can live with that.
-JT
|
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:37:00 -
[2601]
Originally by: Wibiq Read the whole post.....part of the process is removing those characters. If these characters truly have nothing to hide, this shouldn't be an issue. Show them, then delete/rename them.
Why bother outing them if they'd be allowed to rename them?
They'd just 'have' to be 'outed' in a year or two and get renamed yet again.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:39:00 -
[2602]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Booster Junkie, so you ARE going to sue me. Okay. Bring it.
I never said I was going to sue anyone. Are you really that unable to comprehend the language we are apparently failing at communicating in? I'll make you a deal, if you can quote me threatening to do so, I'll stop posting. If you can't then YOU have to stop posting for 7 days. Deal?
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:41:00 -
[2603]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Wibiq Read the whole post.....part of the process is removing those characters. If these characters truly have nothing to hide, this shouldn't be an issue. Show them, then delete/rename them.
Why bother outing them if they'd be allowed to rename them?
They'd just 'have' to be 'outed' in a year or two and get renamed yet again.
The whole point is that they shouldn't be in positions of power within the alliances. The characters should be disposable from a player politics standpoint, therefore the name shouldn't matter.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:41:00 -
[2604]
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
The OUTED characters would very much have a bearing on politics.
What if they fullfilled that absurd demand, and suddenly we find out there's 30 devs in ISS, and 50 in IAC?
What happens when suddenly half of EVE has wardecced ISS and IAC, quite coincidentally Im sure?
There are countless people who would go out of their way to make life hell for devs when they try and play the game. There's a reason no MMO lets players know who their devs play casually. IT AFFECTS PERCEPTION.
If every dev were outed and found to be in SWA, people would ***** that the devs being in SWA is the reason SWA can't be wardecced.
It's meant to affect perception, Malthros... that is precisely the point.
Because the current perception is that developer characters hold prominent positions in major alliances; that those developers are using their positions to confer an unfair advantage to those alliances; and that the developers are witholding this information from the patron user base. This sets them apart from every other MMO I know of -- again, they were caught in the act and they need to make this right as soon as possible.
The only way to dispel these allegations is to come clean and declare who the characters are/were. And if it does turn out that developer characters hold (or held in the past) high positions in certain alliances, then my opinion would be that those characters should be deleted. The alliance should continue to exist and it should retain all of its holdings. If players organize an action against an alliance they perceive may have had an unfair advantage -- so be it. I can live with that.
-JT
So if a dev played the game and ended up in a strong position, they would have to be deleted?
Look, I can understand what you are trying to get at, but ultimately this is another call to regulate them in a way that they end up not being knowledgeable about how all aspects of the game works in practice.
t20 was a BoB FC, right? The new gang layout looks alot more FC-friendly to me than the old gang setup did, even though the gang bonus setup kinda sucks. What if the new gang setup, when finished, is completely badass and loved by all FCs and group pvpers, but wouldn't have existed without t20 and possibly other devs, having been in those positions to know EXACTLY what was needed?
Think about it. Sadly t20's damage is going to leave scars, but to behead someone because they broke a finger is insane, and that's what people are calling for as far as CCP's other staff goes.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Natalie Scarlett
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:44:00 -
[2605]
T20
Quote:
The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future.
Just now I realized... When he said "reintroduced through a new raffle in the future" this mean he got the BPOs using the lottery system (so the total BPOs that should be in the tanquility server be the same as it has been planed), right? so its mean he didnt use something like /createt2bpo xxxx command
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:45:00 -
[2606]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 01:43:19 Booster Junkie, so you're backtracking? Kay. And I don't do "deals" which would be contrary to the forum rules. Please don't do that again.
"We wouldn't even know about the BPOs without Kugutsumen's efforts"
Without his illegal hacking. Don't weasel.
"and have zero idea how credit card companies work"
That's funny, I seem to be talking about the actual situation, rather than the one you would like to think is true.
Wibiq, if the characters are disposable then the devs are playing a fundermentally different game from the players, and thus the value of them playing the game is radically diminished. NOT the point.
Natalie Scarlett, I feel you're reaching on semantics there.
//Maya |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:45:00 -
[2607]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 12/02/2007 00:06:37
Originally by: Jerol Troglan
Identify all developer player characters -- past and present -- and their corp/alliance affiliations. Make them public.
There it is -- simple enough. This is the level of honesty that you need to display with your patrons right now in order to gain back their trust. If need be, delete these characters -- all of them. You can make more... and if you're only truly playing so as to better know your product, then what difference does it make?
Do the right thing. Only with full disclosure can you receive the full trust of your patrons.
-JT
QFT
If the characters have no real bearing on the politics and market as CCP says....this should be a very viable option.
The OUTED characters would very much have a bearing on politics.
What if they fullfilled that absurd demand, and suddenly we find out there's 30 devs in ISS, and 50 in IAC?
What happens when suddenly half of EVE has wardecced ISS and IAC, quite coincidentally Im sure?
There are countless people who would go out of their way to make life hell for devs when they try and play the game. There's a reason no MMO lets players know who their devs play casually. IT AFFECTS PERCEPTION.
If every dev were outed and found to be in SWA, people would ***** that the devs being in SWA is the reason SWA can't be wardecced.
It's meant to affect perception, Malthros... that is precisely the point.
Because the current perception is that developer characters hold prominent positions in major alliances; that those developers are using their positions to confer an unfair advantage to those alliances; and that the developers are witholding this information from the patron user base. This sets them apart from every other MMO I know of -- again, they were caught in the act and they need to make this right as soon as possible.
The only way to dispel these allegations is to come clean and declare who the characters are/were. And if it does turn out that developer characters hold (or held in the past) high positions in certain alliances, then my opinion would be that those characters should be deleted. The alliance should continue to exist and it should retain all of its holdings. If players organize an action against an alliance they perceive may have had an unfair advantage -- so be it. I can live with that.
-JT
So if a dev played the game and ended up in a strong position, they would have to be deleted?
Look, I can understand what you are trying to get at, but ultimately this is another call to regulate them in a way that they end up not being knowledgeable about how all aspects of the game works in practice.
t20 was a BoB FC, right? The new gang layout looks alot more FC-friendly to me than the old gang setup did, even though the gang bonus setup kinda sucks. What if the new gang setup, when finished, is completely badass and loved by all FCs and group pvpers, but wouldn't have existed without t20 and possibly other devs, having been in those positions to know EXACTLY what was needed?
Think about it. Sadly t20's damage is going to leave scars, but to behead someone because they broke a finger is insane, and that's what people are calling for as far as CCP's other staff goes.
Professional sports referees make the rules for their game without playing them at those levels. Would you allow a referee to play a position on a professional team in disguise? I have nothing against DEVs playing the game whatsoever. I do have a problem with them having an intimate hand in the player politics of the game. The "sandbox" is ours right? Isn't that the whole deal? Nope.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:46:00 -
[2608]
Posted - 2006.12.10 01:25:00 I can't stress enough on how important it is to not actively try to cause mischief here. Most of our player characters have retreated from the public face of eve with as politics are more dangerous than ever in EVE. Being a dev, a prominent player and on the front of "what's hot" , keeping up appearances and never slip, is an art only few people can master.
As to "just starting over", Ifni hit the spot, I don't want to re-create a reputation, I don't want to be forced to delete my character, all those people you've come to know over the years, all that just gone in the blink of a moment. That hurts a LOT.
So if you find out a dev by accident (I hope for your sake it's an accidental figuring-out of, otherwise if you're actively hunting dev identities, i can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die ... ) have the sportmansship to keep it to yourself (confirmed or unconfirmed), consider it a test on the lost art of keeping secrets.
So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level. We don't know more than you do, We don't have GM modules fitted, We petition our losses just the same way you do, we crap our pants when we warp into a gank as much as you crap yours, we curse as much as you do when we lose that newly fitted Tech II Battleship and we certainly curse all the same (if not more) when we're sitting in space with our fighters out and murphy comes along to crash the node.
I want to stress though, that this response is merely my personal opinion, one that I wanted to get out of my system for a while now.
and to clear things up: This is how I felt 4 months ago when my characters went byebye:
Posted by T20 here http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=440968#5966536 He doesn't sound so contrite in this post does he? in fact he sounds more like a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
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Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:47:00 -
[2609]
Originally by: Vas Arach'ta
What's so disappointing to me is that people in this community are so anxious to judge the integrity of the entire company based on the mistake of one person. I hope your families get judged with all the same malice whenever it is you eventually screw up. If I'm going to leave the game for any reason, it'll be to distance myself from doomsaying numpties such as yourself.
Next, if devs are still playing in alliances (and I certainly hope they still are), then this fiasco detracts from those who've earned their accomplishments in the game universe legitimately, without the help of Sabre BPOs and whatever other tosh it is that's making all the simpletons panic around here.
And for those of you who are convinced that this is all part of some broader coverup, please...do the rest of us a favor and get out of here, all of you. Go catch up on your supermarket tabloids. There ought to be enough conspiracy theories in there to hold you over.
/V
Correction: we are judging the integrity of the entire company based on their reaction to the mistakes of one person. We just want to know why they did (or in this case, didn't do) certain actions, and why those actions do not appear to be applied uniformly.
You hope my family gets judged with the same malice when I screw up? I agree. If I go off my rocker, rob a bank, and my family hides me from the law for 6+ months, they should spend time in prison too. _______________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristotle |
Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:51:00 -
[2610]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Booster Junkie, so you're backtracking? Kay.
I never talked about suing. Check EVE search. How dumb are you?
|
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:53:00 -
[2611]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 01:49:53 Wibiq,
The entire MMO industry says it's VERY important for the devs to play the game. In the cases they have not, disaster has followed within a year. If you have a soloution, you could get very rich selling it.
Kael Kenton,
You are commiting an offence by harbouring a criminal. CCP are not required to tell us when a dev misbehaves. If you want CCP to change their policy, fair enough. But to expect things to work the way you want to restrospectively is more like one day you walked in front of an old lady, two weeks later a law was passed against walking in front of old ladies and you got dragged off to jail.
Booster Junkie, heh.
//Maya |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:56:00 -
[2612]
Maya....I don't suggest that they don't play the game....I am suggesting they don't play it within positions of power in a supposedly player driven economy and political arena.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 01:57:00 -
[2613]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 01:49:53 Wibiq,
The entire MMO industry says it's VERY important for the devs to play the game. In the cases they have not, disaster has followed within a year. If you have a soloution, you could get very rich selling it.
Kael Kenton,
You are commiting an offence by harbouring a criminal. CCP are not required to tell us when a dev misbehaves. If you want CCP to change their policy, fair enough. But to expect things to work the way you want to restrospectively is more like one day you walked in front of an old lady, two weeks later a law was passed against walking in front of old ladies and you got dragged off to jail.
Booster Junkie, heh.
Maya why is it half this thread is responses from you?
What is your agenda as you clearly have one.
|
Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:58:00 -
[2614]
Making everyone partake in her stupidity.
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:59:00 -
[2615]
She is afraid, can't you tell. Granted I wouldn't sue CCP, I would go find another game.
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Cosmic Blunder
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:00:00 -
[2616]
Some of you people need urgent help. |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:00:00 -
[2617]
Seems like it... if you review from a few pages ago I clearly brought up a few topics and while she tried to tap dance around them she didn't answer any of them.
Like Kug has credibility, CCP and T20 do not.
|
Cosmic Blunder
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:02:00 -
[2618]
Originally by: MrDisposable Seems like it... if you review from a few pages ago I clearly brought up a few topics and while she tried to tap dance around them she didn't answer any of them.
Like Kug has credibility, CCP and T20 do not.
A person who commits an illegal action punishable with jail sentance, and gets personal info on the net has credibility? Wonder if you'd think that if he was to hack your computer for your personal bank account info, and such things.... |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:04:00 -
[2619]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 02:01:44
Originally by: Cosmic Blunder
Originally by: MrDisposable Seems like it... if you review from a few pages ago I clearly brought up a few topics and while she tried to tap dance around them she didn't answer any of them.
Like Kug has credibility, CCP and T20 do not.
A person who commits an illegal action punishable with jail sentance, and gets personal info on the net has credibility? Wonder if you'd think that if he was to hack your computer for your personal bank account info, and such things....
All of Kug's assertions that have been investigated have been true about both goonswarm and T20's actions.
T20 is proven to be a liar who only admits after he has been proven guilty.
Just because he went about it in a certain way does not make him a liar.
*EDIT* I missed your little ploy of the banl account crap for a knee jerk reaction. Lay down with dogs and you get flees. Lets see if you can connect the dots.
|
Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:05:00 -
[2620]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/02/2007 01:49:53 Wibiq,
The entire MMO industry says it's VERY important for the devs to play the game. In the cases they have not, disaster has followed within a year. If you have a soloution, you could get very rich selling it.
Kael Kenton,
You are commiting an offence by harbouring a criminal. CCP are not required to tell us when a dev misbehaves. If you want CCP to change their policy, fair enough. But to expect things to work the way you want to restrospectively is more like one day you walked in front of an old lady, two weeks later a law was passed against walking in front of old ladies and you got dragged off to jail.
Booster Junkie, heh.
You seem to be confusing what is "the right thing to do" with what is "the legally required thing to do".
And "walking in front of little old ladies"? WTF... _______________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristotle |
|
Deepspace Wanderer
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:06:00 -
[2621]
Originally by: Cosmic Blunder
Originally by: MrDisposable Seems like it... if you review from a few pages ago I clearly brought up a few topics and while she tried to tap dance around them she didn't answer any of them.
Like Kug has credibility, CCP and T20 do not.
A person who commits an illegal action punishable with jail sentance, and gets personal info on the net has credibility? Wonder if you'd think that if he was to hack your computer for your personal bank account info, and such things....
If he did that I'd want him arrested, jailed, stripped naked, dipped in brown gravy, and locked in a room with a rabid wolverine high on angel dust.
Doesn't change the fact that in this instance he seems more trustworthy than CCP. not a good thing for Eve |
Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:07:00 -
[2622]
Originally by: Natalie Scarlett T20
Quote:
The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future.
Just now I realized... When he said "reintroduced through a new raffle in the future" this mean he got the BPOs using the lottery system (so the total BPOs that should be in the tanquility server be the same as it has been planed), right? so its mean he didnt use something like /createt2bpo xxxx command
That is one of the still open questions - Was the tech2 lottery manipulated or wre the BPO's created.
|
K1K1R1K1
Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:08:00 -
[2623]
This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
_______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit. |
Dagda Dia
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:09:00 -
[2624]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Cosmic Blunder
Originally by: MrDisposable Seems like it... if you review from a few pages ago I clearly brought up a few topics and while she tried to tap dance around them she didn't answer any of them.
Like Kug has credibility, CCP and T20 do not.
A person who commits an illegal action punishable with jail sentance, and gets personal info on the net has credibility? Wonder if you'd think that if he was to hack your computer for your personal bank account info, and such things....
All of Kug's assertions that have been investigated have been true about both goonswarm and T20's actions.
T20 is proven to be a liar who only admits after he has been proven guilty.
Just because he went about it in a certain way does not make him a liar.
He admitted to having 6 AMMO T2 BPOs, what were the other 4 T2 BPOs Kug though it he had?? HAC?? I like alot of pepole wont trust anything T20 says for a every, every long time!! No wonder there were no chirstmas presents or portaitors on the sever.
Move along nothing to see here, yes I am a ALT Just portecting my main.
|
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:09:00 -
[2625]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:11:00 -
[2626]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
Your 93 pages too late!
Well something has gone very, very wrong.... And I hope that it will be fixed very very soon.
|
K1K1R1K1
Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:11:00 -
[2627]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
_______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit. |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:14:00 -
[2628]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Remember the incident with the rogue GM who spawned himself crap, and then had the gal to ban the players who refused to give him back his "spawned" loot after killing him? Seems awfully familiar to this one.
Now some serious allegations have been leveed against CCP of more than T20's developer misconduct and they need to be addressed.
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:15:00 -
[2629]
Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
|
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:16:00 -
[2630]
Maybe the nay-sayers are right. Maybe this was just a one off freak of nature type of incident and CCP deserves our trust. Lets leave them alone.
*me waits for a few T2 BPOs and GM scouting parties*
|
|
MysticNZ
Solstice Systems Development Concourse SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:16:00 -
[2631]
Maya always seems to post rubbish here, Vista thread was a laugh. -=====-
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:17:00 -
[2632]
Originally by: MrDisposable Maybe the nay-sayers are right. Maybe this was just a one off freak of nature type of incident and CCP deserves our trust. Lets leave them alone.
*me waits for a few T2 BPOs and GM scouting parties*
There is a war on.....
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MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:19:00 -
[2633]
Originally by: Nighlighted
Originally by: MrDisposable Maybe the nay-sayers are right. Maybe this was just a one off freak of nature type of incident and CCP deserves our trust. Lets leave them alone.
*me waits for a few T2 BPOs and GM scouting parties*
There is a war on.....
Your right.. making sense is highly overrated.
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Brunn
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:19:00 -
[2634]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
i would belive that this was the only incident if CCP didnt denied what they knew was true until someone got the proof. so it makes u wonder how much is still under the rug... i at this moment dont feel the floor very even...
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:21:00 -
[2635]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Nighlighted
Originally by: MrDisposable Maybe the nay-sayers are right. Maybe this was just a one off freak of nature type of incident and CCP deserves our trust. Lets leave them alone.
*me waits for a few T2 BPOs and GM scouting parties*
There is a war on.....
Your right.. making sense is highly overrated.
Well I'm waiting for the reports of stuff shutting down and one sided log in ques.
|
K1K1R1K1
Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:23:00 -
[2636]
Originally by: Nighlighted Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
And this is a surprise? of course things like that will happen. CCP is composed of people, not robots. As long as major incidents aren't occuring on a regular basis all is good. An oddball gm gone rouge is inevidable.
_______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:23:00 -
[2637]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Remember the incident with the rogue GM who spawned himself crap, and then had the gal to ban the players who refused to give him back his "spawned" loot after killing him? Seems awfully familiar to this one.
Now some serious allegations have been leveed against CCP of more than T20's developer misconduct and they need to be addressed.
You mean the GM who they fired for doing that? I remember him.
I remember he lost his job too, and that's where alot of peop;le have a problem, since t20 kept his. Had that not happened, this would not have been nearly as huge an issue to most players.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
|
Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:24:00 -
[2638]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: Nighlighted Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
And this is a surprise? of course things like that will happen. CCP is composed of people, not robots. As long as major incidents aren't occuring on a regular basis all is good. An oddball gm gone rouge is inevidable.
Not if it's treated in the same manner these situations were.
|
Nighlighted
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:24:00 -
[2639]
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: Nighlighted Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
And this is a surprise? of course things like that will happen. CCP is composed of people, not robots. As long as major incidents aren't occuring on a regular basis all is good. An oddball gm gone rouge is inevidable.
Well the issue is he was let go.....
|
K1K1R1K1
Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:25:00 -
[2640]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Remember the incident with the rogue GM who spawned himself crap, and then had the gal to ban the players who refused to give him back his "spawned" loot after killing him? Seems awfully familiar to this one.
Now some serious allegations have been leveed against CCP of more than T20's developer misconduct and they need to be addressed.
Well that is pretty bad... did the players at least get their accounts back?
_______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit. |
|
Cosmic Blunder
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:26:00 -
[2641]
Originally by: Nighlighted
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: Nighlighted Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
And this is a surprise? of course things like that will happen. CCP is composed of people, not robots. As long as major incidents aren't occuring on a regular basis all is good. An oddball gm gone rouge is inevidable.
Well the issue is he was let go.....
According to CCP he wasnt. |
Deepspace Wanderer
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:29:00 -
[2642]
Originally by: Cosmic Blunder
Originally by: Nighlighted
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: Nighlighted Edited by: Nighlighted on 12/02/2007 02:12:50
Originally by: K1K1R1K1
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: K1K1R1K1 This post delivers.
All the hobos saying "this is discusting" and whatnot... get over it. One guy in CCP slipps and everyone's about to sh*# a brick. One guy, not the entire team. So show some respect for the guys that built the game you love instead of just turning your back on em' in a heart beat the second something goes wrong.
Something like this is the exception, not the rule...
This is not the first time a CCP employee has done something like this.
This is not the first time CCP has tried to silence a scandal.
Fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me.
What are the other incidents then? and how severe where they?
Last Summer there was a GM who was Spawning Items on himself. Other then that I do not know.
EDIT: *Smacks Forehead*
And this is a surprise? of course things like that will happen. CCP is composed of people, not robots. As long as major incidents aren't occuring on a regular basis all is good. An oddball gm gone rouge is inevidable.
Well the issue is he was let go.....
According to CCP he wasnt.
T20 wasn't...the GM caught spawning the faction fitted BS (I believe it was) was eventually fired. That's one of the reasons ppl are so mad..a double standard is being applied not a good thing for Eve |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:35:00 -
[2643]
The GM he refers to was the GM involved in the scorpion incident in August. He was fired, or they said that and for some reason I believe them.
The problem here has been complicated by the apparent cover up on the part of CCP regarding t20s actions, which is worse than what we know t20 did.
It is also made worse that certain members of an alliance have not been banned, or at least the reasons for not banning them addressed.
But, as Ender said:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Yan Song
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:51:00 -
[2644]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
He posted on the forums.
Rarely do actions on the forums get an in-game punishment.
Um, isn't that the same thing as what Kug was banned for? If it does not happen in the game, you do not get an in-game ban... Somehow I think their question still remains. ----------------------------------------------- The Devs were never meant to be an OMGWTF game-winning PWNMOBILE |
Hiivo
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 03:01:00 -
[2645]
Originally by: Yan Song
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
He posted on the forums.
Rarely do actions on the forums get an in-game punishment.
Um, isn't that the same thing as what Kug was banned for? If it does not happen in the game, you do not get an in-game ban... Somehow I think their question still remains.
Indeed, after reading the report at The Escapist, this is exactly the question I came here to see answered.
|
Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 03:03:00 -
[2646]
Originally by: Dagda Dia He admitted to having 6 AMMO T2 BPOs, what were the other 4 T2 BPOs Kug though it he had?? HAC??
According to this post from page 12, it was more ammo, and a Malediction.
Originally by: Sephiraa THIS IS NOT OVER.
* T20, you claim there were 6 BPOs, but that's not true. There were more. What is the fate of the others? What about these BPOs? When are they being put back in the lottery? - Barrage S Blueprint - Barrage L Blueprint - Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint - Malediction Blueprint - Quake L Blueprint
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Running Mann
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 03:05:00 -
[2647]
Originally by: Helox
Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
Isn't this a case of foreshadowing? Check the end of what was linked to.
"Sharing these songs means I can't share them with my corpmates without being found out, with an unhealthy dose of paranoia and schizophrenia as an endresult. Thus are the secret lives of CCP player accounts."
If only you had realized t20, just how much "paranoia and schizophrenia" would result -- legitimately! - when we found out just what you were up to. I like how he labels the legit negative response to his in-game actions. Does this seem like he's trying to pull a bit of pre-emptive damage control or what?
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Hot Bird
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 03:14:00 -
[2648]
And if you go back and look at some of those old GMs in BoB threads, you'll see that quite often a BoB character was the last post on the topic and that his post was made AFTER the thread was locked.
Originally by: MAC MCADAMS Let me see if I get this right
If you cheat you dont get banned - If you highlight the cheaters you do
If you post about BOB is gets locked, if BOB post about others it doesnt
Sounds fair to me, whats the problem!!!!!!!!
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:14:00 -
[2649]
Originally by: Yan Song
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Kieron, many people are still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question:
Why wasn't SirMolle banned for posting someone's real-life details?
Thank you.
That's an excellent question, and needs to be answered.
He posted on the forums.
Rarely do actions on the forums get an in-game punishment.
Um, isn't that the same thing as what Kug was banned for? If it does not happen in the game, you do not get an in-game ban... Somehow I think their question still remains.
Kugu also did a few highly illegal things, and did it expressly to cause problems.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:14:00 -
[2650]
Originally by: Running Mann
Originally by: Helox
Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
Isn't this a case of foreshadowing? Check the end of what was linked to.
"Sharing these songs means I can't share them with my corpmates without being found out, with an unhealthy dose of paranoia and schizophrenia as an endresult. Thus are the secret lives of CCP player accounts."
If only you had realized t20, just how much "paranoia and schizophrenia" would result -- legitimately! - when we found out just what you were up to. I like how he labels the legit negative response to his in-game actions. Does this seem like he's trying to pull a bit of pre-emptive damage control or what?
Wow, he is both skilled a cheating (or well not skilled enough apparently) and good at inserting his foot all the way into his mouth ... repeatedly.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Running Mann
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:16:00 -
[2651]
You know, even if SirMolle or anybody else from BoB is banned... it's ludicrous that all of them, and t20, have been given and are being given all the time in the world to hand all their possessions/isk/stolen-t2-blueprints to corpmates to hold for them until they make a new character.
How much advance notice was Mr. K given so that he could shift his items and ISK to a friend? Can anybody tell me that?
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Michael Lonewolf
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:18:00 -
[2652]
I just don't get why developers would support blatant cheats and violations of the EULA, but since at least one of them has I can only say, "WHY? That's just stupid, you already have a HUGE advantage in the game by knowing the mechanics on a level that only a developer would be able to!". Also, I personally don't appreciate the attempts to whitewash everything and shut up dissenting voices. We're all, in theory at least, adults who don't need to be told to shut up and do as we're told. I'm really offended by CCP's actions in this direction. They should know better considering that they're gamers too. I don't think it's right that BoB members should get a free pass for a lot of rules violations, including account sharing and hacking passwords into player accounts. It's really disgusting that they can do this and brag about it with no consequences...I've seen at least one post discussing account sharing from these boards. That's not playing the game, and if you can't play without violating the EULA and cheating then you are weak, you might as well go play DOOM on god mode for your ego rush, because you sure have no clue what it's like to play a real game. Now, I'm an adult, I have a life, and can't spend hours upon hours to play this game. It's definitely not my life although I enjoy playing when my better half's asleep and I'm up late at night (I don't sleep much). However much of the joy is taken out of a game when people cheat and use inside information to their advantage, and even if I were a member of BoB and benefitted from this it would still ruin a lot of the pleasure for me. CCP really needs to take care of these issues and not ban people who say "hey, wait, that's just not cool". In the meantime, I've already cancelled my billing here, whether I renew it or not depends on whether these serious issues get resolved in a responsible manner, and that does mean CCP biting the bullet and stop letting developers and players cheat. And that DOES include not giving inside information to their buddies in game...let's be real...that's just lame in the extreme. A big thumbs-down for how this has been handled so far, please redeem yourselves CCP so we can enjoy the game like before!
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Akane Sumiko
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:22:00 -
[2653]
hit the enter key once in a while man :s Text-blob
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:24:00 -
[2654]
Originally by: Running Mann You know, even if SirMolle or anybody else from BoB is banned... it's ludicrous that all of them, and t20, have been given and are being given all the time in the world to hand all their possessions/isk/stolen-t2-blueprints to corpmates to hold for them until they make a new character.
How much advance notice was Mr. K given so that he could shift his items and ISK to a friend? Can anybody tell me that?
You're assuming they aren't already banned if they're to be banned, or if they will be banned, which is unlikely, because you won't find any MMO company that bans based off of info solely from another source.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:29:00 -
[2655]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Running Mann You know, even if SirMolle or anybody else from BoB is banned... it's ludicrous that all of them, and t20, have been given and are being given all the time in the world to hand all their possessions/isk/stolen-t2-blueprints to corpmates to hold for them until they make a new character.
How much advance notice was Mr. K given so that he could shift his items and ISK to a friend? Can anybody tell me that?
You're assuming they aren't already banned if they're to be banned, or if they will be banned, which is unlikely, because you won't find any MMO company that bans based off of info solely from another source.
Well , SirMolle did his eula violation on this forum sos it it solely CCPs source :-D you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:39:00 -
[2656]
Originally by: Michael Lonewolf I just don't get why developers would support blatant cheats and violations of the EULA, but since at least one of them has I can only say, "WHY? That's just stupid, you already have a HUGE advantage in the game by knowing the mechanics on a level that only a developer would be able to!".
Well, one theory is the t2 lottery is stupid in the extreme. A dev realizes just how stupid, and to save some pointless grinding and time wasting just spawns the end results so his corp could focus on the important things in Eve -- the PvP. After all, BoB is obscenely rich, that's a few more billion in assets or some time saved?
Rest of us little people get to grind, though.
Quote:
Also, I personally don't appreciate the attempts to whitewash everything and shut up dissenting voices.
Can't argue with the results though. Sweeping this issue under the carpet bought 6 months of peace, and a successful merger with White Wolf. If it wasn't for a nasty ***** doing things for his own benefit, we'd all be happy mushrooms right now. Coverup is often times the best policy, but there is definitely a risk of backlash and anger if the news does somehow get out. As some people pointed out, a lowlife script kiddie appears more trustworthy than an employee of CCP.
Anyway, I know I'd be happily grinding mishes as opposed to whoruming if the news hadn't gotten out. So I can see why you'd want to keep things like this hush-hush.
Quote:
I don't think it's right that BoB members should get a free pass for a lot of rules violations, including account sharing and hacking passwords into player accounts. It's really disgusting that they can do this and brag about it with no consequences...I've seen at least one post discussing account sharing from these boards.
And that's really my problem. Not so much the coverup, any corporation would try to do that. The on-going, blatant favortism. It can't continue if CCP wants to grow up and be seen as anything but a bunch of rank ammateurs.
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Cker Heel
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:41:00 -
[2657]
Gotta say I really appreciate Maya Rkell bothering to reply to this thread. Great content.
I am not disturbed by the behaviour of CCP or its employees. It is human nature. Expecting more is fantasy.
What does puzzle me is the alt posted drumbeat to damage CCP Inc itself. Relentless posts by alts hoping for magazine articles or big credit card chargebacks does disturb me. Cancelling subs and clamouring for heads is an understandable reaction.
Wanting to vandalize the company, though, is very disturbing.
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Mini Mizer
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:45:00 -
[2658]
FIRE HIM!
Confiscate all the corps goods and give them to concord. All accounts should have some (-) isk balance.
It' BS if you don't. Whole companies are punished today depending on where the crime takes place, there is no difference in a company or a corp. The corp should be punished - all the accounts whereever they may be.
You can not guarantee our EVE experience if you dont exact punishment inside your own mist.
grrrrr
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:56:00 -
[2659]
Originally by: Cker Heel Gotta say I really appreciate Maya Rkell bothering to reply to this thread. Great content.
I am not disturbed by the behaviour of CCP or its employees. It is human nature. Expecting more is fantasy.
What does puzzle me is the alt posted drumbeat to damage CCP Inc itself. Relentless posts by alts hoping for magazine articles or big credit card chargebacks does disturb me. Cancelling subs and clamouring for heads is an understandable reaction.
Wanting to vandalize the company, though, is very disturbing.
Trying for that free T2 BPO eh?
Dude no one wants to burn CCP to the ground. I love this game and if it goes away I will be stuck with no other MMORPG to play.
Unfortunately CCP has shown that it takes a community uproar to light a fire under it's rump and get going.
I admit I want some blood for blood. T20 should be fired per company regulations OR they need to reinstate the cheating GM. Sir Molle and all his accounts should be perma-banned OR Kug should be given his back.
There should also be a serious investigation as too what else has been going on.. eve wide. I want CCP to reclaim this awesome game world they have made from the cheaters, liars, and other scum.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:00:00 -
[2660]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 03:58:22 Oh as a sidebar I am sure everyone at CCP is ****ED at T20 right now and the whistleblower. Those that where/are doing the same are going to be ALOT more careful. Those that keep thier noses clean are probally saying, "Thats for messing it up for everyone *******!!"
See the way things work in the world of the grown ups is you give someone enough rope to hang themselves with it, and they do. If this happens to often the few will ruin it for the many and the rope disappears. In this case ROPE=characters on TQ or maybe just characters in alliances.
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Devie Viviem
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:05:00 -
[2661]
Originally by: SweetSerenity Edited by: SweetSerenity on 12/02/2007 00:17:17 Then this begs the question of who vouched for the devs characters to be recruited into BoB? Pretty much all BoB corps have the same policy of admitting new members: have a lot of SP, be a good PvP'er, and know someone already in BoB. So who did the dev know, or did this person just make contact with BoB corp leaders and say "hey I'm a dev, I can get you all free stuff if you just let me in"?
I'm sorry, but when I sit and think about it for a minute this isn't tinfoil hattery speaking. To me it's the tip of an iceberg and calls into question a lot of progress made by BoB in the past year. Remember a lot of people were paranoid about this last year and they were laughed off for dreaming up the new conspiracy theory of the week. Well now at least one of them is true.
Hey SirMolle...speak up any time now! You've constantly told people to show proof. Seems some proof has arisen. Care to make a formal statement. You usualy cant keep your mouth shut on this sort of thing.
Did you have ties to the Dev's?
Of all of the questions I have asked this is now the one I want answered most.
But, there seems to be some kind of gag order out....interesting.
Tick Tock Molle....lol
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:10:00 -
[2662]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Look, I can understand what you are trying to get at, but ultimately this is another call to regulate them in a way that they end up not being knowledgeable about how all aspects of the game works in practice.
You may convince a few teenagers with that argument. But the truth is you don't need the devs playing the game to know how the game works.
Like the "mistery shoopers" many stores use, hire some 'game testers'. Pay them to play the game and provide input to the devs. But the devs should not be the testers and the testers should not have dev access to the inner workings of the game.
If devs really need to test a feature, game mechanics or something similar, they can do it on sisi. That's what sisi is there for. |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:23:00 -
[2663]
Originally by: Cosmic Blunder
A person who commits an illegal action punishable with jail sentance, ....
Prof or STFU.
You know, if I were K, I would be planing on sueing ur arse. What you just did is call difamation. And it is punishable by law. It doesn't matter if it was in the middle of a posting frensi.
"Donald Trump Vs Rosie O'Donnell" anyone?
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The Libertine
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:23:00 -
[2664]
Originally by: Nils Bohr So you're saying you think t20 didn't level with his employers back in June, when CCP found out about this? Seems like they'd sack him now for not telling the full truth then.
Nah, that makes no sense at all. If t20 is staying with CCP, that means he must have told them about the BPOs at the very least.
Clearer now?
Maybe it slipped his mind? He can't be expected to remember every single time he broke the rules and spawned an illegal BPO for BoB ...
right?
--- Since the BoB CynoNet violated the account sharing rules in the EULA; why haven't all those BoB accounts been banned yet? |
La Hefa
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:27:00 -
[2665]
It's about integrity and that has been lost.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:37:00 -
[2666]
Originally by: Cker Heel Wanting to vandalize the company, though, is very disturbing.
Thats human nature as well.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Drake Winson
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:41:00 -
[2667]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Like the "mistery shoopers" many stores use, hire some 'game testers'. Pay them to play the game and provide input to the devs. But the devs should not be the testers and the testers should not have dev access to the inner workings of the game.
...or they could listen to their paying customers......
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:42:00 -
[2668]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Look, I can understand what you are trying to get at, but ultimately this is another call to regulate them in a way that they end up not being knowledgeable about how all aspects of the game works in practice.
You may convince a few teenagers with that argument. But the truth is you don't need the devs playing the game to know how the game works.
When you can name me an MMO that doesn't have its devs playing it (heavily), you can lecture me on the subject, until then, I'll take the word of MMO devs who have stated its suicidal to not play the game you work on.
EQ 1/2, UO, WoW, DAOC, L1/2, FFXI... the list goes on. They all play their own games, both for business and pleasure.
SISI is in no way an indication of how things work on TQ, a perfect example is the Drake, omg did people while and scream about the Drake being some unkillable pwnmobile, while excluding to mention that the Drake wasn't fit for tackling, and was setup on pure tank with abut 150dps.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:44:00 -
[2669]
Originally by: Marcellog Edited by: Marcellog on 11/02/2007 17:45:39 Why does two GMs appear in the system where BoB will attack a POS, and few minutes before this attack these 2 GMs were inside ASCN POS????
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
Who will do something about it, I would bet that BoB's ACSN attack was unfair, since we could see GMs helping BoB. Shame CCP - Shame BoB!!!
Is this true? If so this whole game is a farse.
-AS |
Deepspace Wanderer
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:54:00 -
[2670]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Marcellog Edited by: Marcellog on 11/02/2007 17:45:39 Why does two GMs appear in the system where BoB will attack a POS, and few minutes before this attack these 2 GMs were inside ASCN POS????
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
Who will do something about it, I would bet that BoB's ACSN attack was unfair, since we could see GMs helping BoB. Shame CCP - Shame BoB!!!
Is this true? If so this whole game is a farse.
funny, that link seems to be broken now not a good thing for Eve |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:56:00 -
[2671]
Originally by: Edheler Twenty-five hundred odd posts, and not a single one trying to find a solution to the problem.
Quite a few have posted possible solutions. It's just a lot to read. Just ignore the people that get in these tangent arguments. :)
-AS |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:01:00 -
[2672]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
When you can name me an MMO that doesn't have its devs playing it (heavily), you can lecture me on the subject, until then, I'll take the word of MMO devs who have stated its suicidal to not play the game you work on.
Is not suicidal dude. They just say that because, of course, they like to play and don't wanna be banned from doing it.
But since you seem to be very literate about how game developers work and how important is for them to play the games they work on, yada yada. I'm going to ask you something:
Have you read Masters of Doom ?
In there you can see how one developer got addicted to play the game instead of working on making it better. The 2nd dev stayed focused. Read the book and see wich one of the 2 devs got booted out of the company. Tell me wich one move forward and made quake. Tell me wich one is now driving ferraris and playing with big rockets. Tell me all that and then talk about 'lecturing'.
Right back at ya! |
MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:08:00 -
[2673]
MY solution:
T20 should be fired per company regulations OR they need to reinstate the cheating GM. Sir Molle and all his accounts should be perma-banned OR Kug should be given his back.
All developer spawned items, isk and modified objects get a "stealth" tag attached to them tracing it back to that dev/GM. This will allow an internal affairs division to do randomized and specific checking. CCP staff are not allowed to be in charge of alliances.. or conversley they all are part of the pirate factions (would be fun to have pirate faction fleet battles.)
Most importantly a probe is launched into all of Kug's allegations and action is taken. A simple dev blog at the end of this probe saying "We found nothing" or "We have banned ALOT of people over this" would suffice for me. I do not want names, times, events or whatever. I want equality and fairness.
While Kug's actions may be illegal I think eve needed it to happen. This should assure people doing less than savory things that some wanna-be famous hacker may be listening.
I like this saying, "Locks keep honest people honest."
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Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:09:00 -
[2674]
Cker:
The problem at this point is that every whine by ASCN during the war with BoB makes me take pause. I thought that CYVOK and his minions were simply whiners because they had built an industrial powerhouse in 0.0 without keeping up the PvP aspect of the game. Now I'm not so sure.
Tinfoil hattery? Probably. But what has happened to this game is that now one has to take a look back and say - "maybe they were right."
It's the cover up plus the lack of RKK/BoB bans that makes almost any wild assertion worth considering.
That plus the timing of the White Wolf merger.
Trust is gone in this game. Would you like t20 to be considering your petition against BoB? How about Kieron? How about Ender?
And still I quote:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Ka'lorn Font'a
Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:09:00 -
[2675]
Just lol at this thread.
The past 30 pages have been the same 15 people arguing and whining. Seriously, get over it. Play the game, or quit.
To all you naysayers screaming 'We should know who the Devs are ingame' and 'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - you really have no clue, do you?
'We should know who the Devs are ingame' - yes, do you *really* have any idea how much abuse they would receive, and how sick it would make *them* of playing?
'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - Yes, good game. Have a cookie. Developers, whom made this game, and have been playing this game for 3 years, should 'stop' playing on TQ. Nice work! Lets implement that, and see how many of the developers find jobs elsewhere, leaving EVE to die. You can't develop something you 'love' by farting around on the Test Server.
Seriously, if you hate this so much.
QUIT, and as Windle said 10 or so pages earlier - make the game a better place for those who *do* want to stay.
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MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:13:00 -
[2676]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a Just lol at this thread.
The past 30 pages have been the same 15 people arguing and whining. Seriously, get over it. Play the game, or quit.
To all you naysayers screaming 'We should know who the Devs are ingame' and 'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - you really have no clue, do you?
'We should know who the Devs are ingame' - yes, do you *really* have any idea how much abuse they would receive, and how sick it would make *them* of playing?
'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - Yes, good game. Have a cookie. Developers, whom made this game, and have been playing this game for 3 years, should 'stop' playing on TQ. Nice work! Lets implement that, and see how many of the developers find jobs elsewhere, leaving EVE to die. You can't develop something you 'love' by farting around on the Test Server.
Seriously, if you hate this so much.
QUIT, and as Windle said 10 or so pages earlier - make the game a better place for those who *do* want to stay.
I love it when people whine about the whiners.
Duh Duh Duh.
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Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:14:00 -
[2677]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a Just lol at this thread.
The past 30 pages have been the same 15 people arguing and whining. Seriously, get over it. Play the game, or quit.
To all you naysayers screaming 'We should know who the Devs are ingame' and 'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - you really have no clue, do you?
'We should know who the Devs are ingame' - yes, do you *really* have any idea how much abuse they would receive, and how sick it would make *them* of playing?
'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - Yes, good game. Have a cookie. Developers, whom made this game, and have been playing this game for 3 years, should 'stop' playing on TQ. Nice work! Lets implement that, and see how many of the developers find jobs elsewhere, leaving EVE to die. You can't develop something you 'love' by farting around on the Test Server.
Seriously, if you hate this so much.
QUIT, and as Windle said 10 or so pages earlier - make the game a better place for those who *do* want to stay.
Ok Ka'lorn. . .you're SO right. If I stay can I join your little alliance and snuggle up to BOB (and therefore the cheating devs) too? Because honestly. . .that's really the only thing holding me here man. . .is the hope that someday I could possibly become as pathetic and lame as you and your buddies.
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Michael Lonewolf
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:16:00 -
[2678]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a Just lol at this thread.
The past 30 pages have been the same 15 people arguing and whining. Seriously, get over it. Play the game, or quit.
To all you naysayers screaming 'We should know who the Devs are ingame' and 'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - you really have no clue, do you?
'We should know who the Devs are ingame' - yes, do you *really* have any idea how much abuse they would receive, and how sick it would make *them* of playing?
'Devs shouldn't play on TQ' - Yes, good game. Have a cookie. Developers, whom made this game, and have been playing this game for 3 years, should 'stop' playing on TQ. Nice work! Lets implement that, and see how many of the developers find jobs elsewhere, leaving EVE to die. You can't develop something you 'love' by farting around on the Test Server.
Seriously, if you hate this so much.
QUIT, and as Windle said 10 or so pages earlier - make the game a better place for those who *do* want to stay.
Please remove your lips from the developers' behinds. Seriously, people have a good reason to be ****ed. Unlike you we really enjoy the game, and think that people should make it by their own wits, not the developers' god mode. And saying that everyone that's made about the cheating should quit is ignorant. Anyone with sense would be mad. If you're not, then at least stop whining about those with more sense about things than you.
Some peoples' kids shouldn't have access to keyboards.
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Ralathar
Minmatar Enildarion Galactic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:16:00 -
[2679]
Theres nothing I can really say that hasn't been said before, but I feel I have to say something.
This whole series of events has left a very sour taste. I feel betrayed by CCP. I paid the same dollars every month just like everyone else, I felt I had the same opportunities as everyone else, and I felt like it was a level playing field (as much as it can be).
Having that ideal shattered by cheating at the highest level is heartbreaking.
I used to love eve. Thinking about everything thats happened, it, unfortunately, isn't hard to cancel both my accounts with no intent of resubscribing.
T20 should be fired. He, and every other person who has cheated in this game, has ruined a very unique and fun experience.
There's no telling how much more cheating and GM abuse has been going on. I feel ripped off. I feel betrayed. I feel like I have lost my favorite game. I don't think I will ever be back.
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Koloch
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:16:00 -
[2680]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
When you can name me an MMO that doesn't have its devs playing it (heavily), you can lecture me on the subject, until then, I'll take the word of MMO devs who have stated its suicidal to not play the game you work on.
Is not suicidal dude. They just say that because, of course, they like to play and don't wanna be banned from doing it.
Dev's must play the game, but I would say they are focusing more on the social aspects of the game vrs. actually testing. I just don't understand the reason for Dev's to stick with one character. It would make more sense to me to have the Dev's spawn a new character every 4 months or so each time with a different race spec. The reason that Tuxford isn't forced to fly Amarr for 4 months straight is something I'II never understand. If they are calling it testing then that's what they should be doing.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:18:00 -
[2681]
If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:20:00 -
[2682]
How it comes that most of the succesfull corps/alliances are the ones saying "please forget about this, let it go...". Why you don't want us expresing our opinion that devs should not play. Do you have devs in your ranks? Is that why you are defending them so much?
Think about it, most people saying "it was only a crapy bpo" are known t2 bpo owners (with multiple t2 bpos). Why you want us to stfu? how did you obtained your t2 bpos?
I can think of a few reasons why you may want us to stfu and even quit the game. |
MrDisposable
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:22:00 -
[2683]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 05:19:05
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
Why do you keep coming back to this thread BoB alt?
Sir Molle did the same EXACT thing as Kug, he broke the EULA. T20 did the same exact thing as that GM 7 months ago, he broke company policy.
If you had even a small amount of sense you would see these issues are black and white.
Ctrl+Q has nothing to do with this thread and while it is despisable, is probally the most idiotic subject to bring in as some half-witted defense.
Everyone reading your post is probally amazed at it.. I know I am.
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Shiva Piva
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:23:00 -
[2684]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
In America and Iceland, they are only written.
I really hate to get into these tit for tat arguments. But, you have just proven you are not a lawyer so please stop giving us your oppinions. Let the lawyers do it.
Yeah, this is an alt, deal with it corset.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:24:00 -
[2685]
Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
When you can name me an MMO that doesn't have its devs playing it (heavily), you can lecture me on the subject, until then, I'll take the word of MMO devs who have stated its suicidal to not play the game you work on.
Is not suicidal dude. They just say that because, of course, they like to play and don't wanna be banned from doing it.
Dev's must play the game, but I would say they are focusing more on the social aspects of the game vrs. actually testing. I just don't understand the reason for Dev's to stick with one character. It would make more sense to me to have the Dev's spawn a new character every 4 months or so each time with a different race spec. The reason that Tuxford isn't forced to fly Amarr for 4 months straight is something I'II never understand. If they are calling it testing then that's what they should be doing.
While my original opinion is different than yours, I find yours acceptable. I could live with that. Let the 'testing' be just that, 'testing'. |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:24:00 -
[2686]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a
QUIT, and as Windle said 10 or so pages earlier - make the game a better place for those who *do* want to stay.
I have a better idea...
Why don't YOU, Windle, and all you cheating gits from MC and BOB quit. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Hale Haleson
Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:26:00 -
[2687]
I wasn't really going to comment on this, but multiple people in my corporation are looking to leave the game because of this so I'm going to throw my two cents in.
T20 should be terminated. He should also provide a list of all players that were aware of this situation and all of their characters banned from the game. An investigation should be done of T20's and all developers dealings in game to make sure the full extend of the cheating is known (I doubt it stops at T2 ammo). Any other developers acting this way should also be terminated.
Any GMs that abused their GM accounts to aid any in game alliance should be terminated. Any GMs that were aware of this and did not report it should be reprimanded. Any GM management that was aware of this should be demoted.
Kieron should be removed as community rep due to his handling of the situation.
CCP employees should only be permitted to belong to noob corps. Any other involvement in the game conveys an unfair advantage.
Bob should be banned from alliance tourneys. |
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:28:00 -
[2688]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/02/2007 05:25:41
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
As much as I hate it, the logoffski maneuver is not a breach of the EULA, so why would anyone get punished for it?
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:33:00 -
[2689]
Has T20 even realized that these people he is covering for are not his friends.
Friends would not allow you to risk your career for a game. They wouldn't allow you to get the amount of grief you are getting now, not by yourself anyway. Your friends would be here defending your character (as a person not your actual game character.)
You do not have friends in eve T20, you have people that use you. They have thrown you away and allowed you to go from a respected member of the community, someone anyone would brag about talking too in-game, to a social outcast. While they stay quiet you pay the price.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:36:00 -
[2690]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
You sir won this thread. I'm speechless. Can you have MY stuff?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:36:00 -
[2691]
Originally by: MrDisposable Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 05:19:05
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
Why do you keep coming back to this thread BoB alt?
Sir Molle did the same EXACT thing as Kug, he broke the EULA. T20 did the same exact thing as that GM 7 months ago, he broke company policy.
If you had even a small amount of sense you would see these issues are black and white.
Ctrl+Q has nothing to do with this thread and while it is despisable, is probally the most idiotic subject to bring in as some half-witted defense.
Everyone reading your post is probally amazed at it.. I know I am.
So your saying that ctrl-q abuse (re:cheating on a MASSIVE scale by the playerbase) is not something that is a valid subject in a thread about cheating? Amazing indeed.. So whats your agenda again "Mr. Victim of BoB" alt who is using every trick and ruse at his disposal to make a year old incident with little to no impact on the game as a whole into a meta politcal shenanigan? or are you afraid of getting your stuff zapped in an investigation?
So who do *you* represent Mr."Disposible"? Whos alt are you?
I know *I* represent EvE the game.. Not some narrow special interest group looking for political advantage..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:40:00 -
[2692]
I won't go into my "Oh Lord" speeches again. Jesus, you seem to have been outed as a BoB alt, so I'll leave it at that.
I agree that Devs need to play the game. I also think that they need to play in some of the bigger corps so that they fully play the game. One off the cuff suggestion is that these characters be manned by multiple GMs so that they can keep an emotional distance from their players. They might get caught by those who have a knack at noticing phrase changes in conversations, or by voice changes in vent, but it would be less likely that one gm would get so involved with a corp/alliance that they would breach their trust to the player base at large.
By the way, there is obviously a policy of not policing the boards this weekend, except in the extreme case. Only one post has been locked in the last 24 hours, at least that I've seen. CCP wanting to let us vent? OR CCP giving us the rope to hang the complainers? Guess we'll know tomorrow.
I still stand by my first post. T20 should be fired, the BoB board sould be banned. BoB should be fined 50% of corporate assts. Kugetsman should be reinstated. Apologies all around. I'll save a snowball for my trip through Hell.
And still I quote Ender:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:42:00 -
[2693]
Originally by: Deepspace Wanderer
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Marcellog Edited by: Marcellog on 11/02/2007 17:45:39 Why does two GMs appear in the system where BoB will attack a POS, and few minutes before this attack these 2 GMs were inside ASCN POS????
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
Who will do something about it, I would bet that BoB's ACSN attack was unfair, since we could see GMs helping BoB. Shame CCP - Shame BoB!!!
Is this true? If so this whole game is a farse.
funny, that link seems to be broken now
Not broken... sorta. If you enter the text into your browser, it still sends you to the right image, but he didn't fill in the link field so the link isn't pointing to the image. The fixed version: nullhttp://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/marcellog/gmbobposatack.jpg
GM Guard and GM Panic, but it's not clear from a single image why they were there, when they were there, what side (if any) they were helping, or if they even knew BoB was coming. I've seen a GM in game before too. I know this may come as a shock, but occasionally they have legitimate reasons to appear. Simply being there doesn't mean they were doing anything evil. Marcellog claims he could see GMs helping BoB. Please be more specific. What exactly did they do to help? What date was this on? Was it reported at the time?
I'm not sure everyone following GMs around like paparazzi, snapping pictures and asking what they're doing is a valid solution to our current problems.
Speaking of this battle in the BoB/ASCN war specifically, if shenannigans were suspected the GMs were right there in plain view. Someone should have confronted them about it. It's not like they were hiding their identities and sneaking around. And two of them, participating in something they know is wrong together, when it would only take one of them? Sorry, I'm not buying it. _______________________________ Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. - Aristotle |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:43:00 -
[2694]
One last question: Maya, have you slept in the last 36 hours? we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:43:00 -
[2695]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/02/2007 05:25:41
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened..
If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all..
As much as I hate it, the logoffski maneuver is not a breach of the EULA, so why would anyone get punished for it?
When used in a bubblecamp to escape being killed its an exploit.. one that can be proven through the logs but as all of eve is doing it its not practical to enforce.. Cant ban a quarter of the playerbase can we.. All I brought that up for was to bring a little levety into the discussion is all.. To remind some of our more rabid posters out for dev/bob blood that the t20 infraction is just one more part of eve that isn't roses and sunshine and perfect.. And maybe to remind some of those who are baying for blood that they may be a bit guilty of exploits themselves.. Can't call the kettle black if your a skillet ya know..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Myrdin Potter
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:44:00 -
[2696]
I have conducted whistleblower investigations in the past as part of my job and am on the whistleblower investigation committee as part of my current responsibilities for my current job.
CCP is doing 2 things very wrong here:
1) Punishing the whistleblower - you may not like the results, but it sends the wrong message to punish him. Unban his accounts. That doesn't mean he has carte blanche to continue with his social engineering and other methods of breaking into sites. If he is caught doing it again, ban him then.
2) The developer should be terminated. The CEO of CCP should not be hiding behind the fact that he was already "punished". The punishment for cheating in this way is termination and that is what should happen. There should be no exceptions. Personally, I wonder if CCP is worried about what the developer might say if he were to be let go. It is possible that the abuse is much more widespread and would be revealed if the developer had nothing more at stake.
I have, to this date, not set foot into 0.0 space and I'm not certain exactly what damage the cheating has done to the game. I'm also sure that employees playing the game is normal. I'm hoping that CCP is smart enough to ban any employee from being a part of a major alliance or corporation.
Myrdin
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:45:00 -
[2697]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus ...bla blah... to make a year old incident with little to no impact on the game ...blah blah
Stealing a sabre bpo is little or no impact? Dude, if I had won that BPO one year ago, I can assure you it would have made a HUGE impact for me.
It's been said by owners of the same BPO that it gives about 400M a week in earnings, easy. Manufacture/Sell AFK, I don't even have to be logged in to make money with a T2 BPO. Dude, I could have billions by now. And with those billions I could have bought more T2 BPOs. Some days ago I saw the 10MN MWD T2 BPO on sale at 5B. I could have bought it. But I didn't won the sabre, or the T2 ammo BPOs. A Dev stole them. And you call that a little incident? No impact? Move along, nothing to see?
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Novina Agrari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:45:00 -
[2698]
Originally by: Morgain dVher By the way, there is obviously a policy of not policing the boards this weekend, except in the extreme case. Only one post has been locked in the last 24 hours, at least that I've seen. CCP wanting to let us vent? OR CCP giving us the rope to hang the complainers? Guess we'll know tomorrow.
Well, my post just got locked, since apparently it's in poor taste to ask just what, if any, special treatment devs get to bestow upon their characters.
By the way, has anyone seen the Escapist interviews about this whole sorry affair? Let me tell you, that's just what a PVP-focused game needs to draw in fans. Allegations of cheating and favoritism among the devs, backed up with good ol' fashioned logged evidence. Fans of PVP just love hearing that!
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:54:00 -
[2699]
logging off in a bubble is not or shoud not be against the rules? I dont like the fact that you can log off in a bubble, but you cant force someone to stay and play if he wants to go. Just makes no sense.
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Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:55:00 -
[2700]
Novina -
Yours was the one I noted. Things got fairly hot and heavy there.
good post btw. we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:57:00 -
[2701]
Wow.. So many things to reply to.. Gimmie a min..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
10bears
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 05:57:00 -
[2702]
Eve doesn't feel the same. It feels like a childs game.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.02.12 05:58:00 -
[2703]
Take the logoffski garbage somewhere else, this isn't the thread for it.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:02:00 -
[2704]
Originally by: Fuujin Take the logoffski garbage somewhere else, this isn't the thread for it.
Actually your correct.. I was only using it as one example of all the other forms of cheating in eve that noone ever gets called out on.. Not to start a logoffski disscussion..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:12:00 -
[2705]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 06:09:02 To get the thread back on track and to sum up.
GM cheating = fired Dev cheating != fired Kug posting personal info = perma banned Sir Molle posting pers info != perma banned Fix the "!=" and I will be not as ****ed. Conduct a real probe and I will be a happy camper(figuratively... I don't gate camp) ______________ BoB Alt
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" |
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 06:30:00 -
[2706]
Originally by: Hale Haleson I wasn't really going to comment on this, but multiple people in my corporation are looking to leave the game because of this so I'm going to throw my two cents in.
T20 should be terminated. He should also provide a list of all players that were aware of this situation and all of their characters banned from the game. An investigation should be done of T20's and all developers dealings in game to make sure the full extend of the cheating is known (I doubt it stops at T2 ammo). Any other developers acting this way should also be terminated.
Any GMs that abused their GM accounts to aid any in game alliance should be terminated. Any GMs that were aware of this and did not report it should be reprimanded. Any GM management that was aware of this should be demoted.
So far so good.
Quote:
Kieron should be removed as community rep due to his handling of the situation.
Woah, there pardner. What the HELL? Kieron is not the problem here. He did channel some obvious BS, but that didn't come from him -- I suspect the BS came from the same lying dev who caused this storm down on CCP in the first place. There's no reason to call for his head as well. There has been absolutely nothing to implicate him in any wrongdoing.
Quote:
CCP employees should only be permitted to belong to noob corps. Any other involvement in the game conveys an unfair advantage.
Once again, disagreed. Devs should experience the high end content of the game. Too many games lose their luster outside of the newbie levels because the devs aren't active at the endgame.
The problem is GMs and other people in positions of authority get too attached to their characters, their in-game friendships, etc. and then abuse 'I WIN' buttons to the detriment of everyone else.
An external review board and swift, decisive action taken whenever abuses are detected should fix this. An internal affairs group made up of the same people commiting the crimes probably not so much.
CCP leadership needs to decide whether they want to continue pwning the noobs paying their salaries, or pwn in RL due to having a successful gaming company.
Quote:
Bob should be banned from alliance tourneys.
I admit there's some shady things with the organizer of the tourneys being IN the winning alliance, but that's once again an abuse of a single person. Not the fault of most of the people in the alliance.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 06:30:00 -
[2707]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus ...bla blah... to make a year old incident with little to no impact on the game ...blah blah
Dude, if I had won that BPO one year ago, I can assure you it would have made a HUGE impact for ->me<-.
For you as an individual: yes.. For t20 as an individual: yes.. For BoB as a whole and its effect on their Military achivements: insignificant to nil.. The bpos will be reseeded and youll have your insignificant (this is not sarcasm or a flame its simply the truth) chance to get it.. t20's possesion of it had an insignificant effect on eve as a whole as all the items he made with said bpos were already available in the markets for all to buy in more than sufficient quantitys..
So ya little to no impact on the game..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Nadarius Chrome
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:39:00 -
[2708]
Originally by: Grash Freedom
To those that say fire t20 quote: From a crazy man that walked on the earth 2007 years ago
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
As for the rest, well CCP do your job you have a lot of banning to do
So all punishment is out as an option? Ridiculous. Rhetoric (especially from 20 centuries ago) is completely immaterial to here and now.
Originally by: Ivana Teetoobeepio So, rant over. Who wants my stuff (PS there arent any bloody T2 bpos in my hangar)
I'll take some if there's anything left.
Originally by: Stede Bonnet The onyl proof they can use is stuff said in game, or at ccp functions, otherwise it would be open to tampering.
Or, presumably, anything that a repentant dev would be willing to admit to. EG knowledge of supposed shared cynonet alts and knowledge/approval of account selling. That is presuming it happened when he was still in RKK. Remember, he got booted from there last summer...
All in all, I'm disappointed that it happened, I'm disappointed in the way it was dealt with 7 months ago, and I'm disappointed in the way it's being dealt with now. Enough of the "selective enforcement" of the EULA we're seeing now. Ban them all, or ban none of them. You cannot expect to ban Kugutsumen on a debatable EULA violation yet allow many other violations pass. I hope to see more answers. This thread is going to keep going until one of three things happens.
- We break the forums from overloading.
- The thread gets locked and you hope it all goes away.
- You put all the cards on the table. We don't need the gory details. We just need to know that justice was served equally.
In the mean time, may the war on BoB and its slaves/hired guns continue. If the devs are unwilling and/or unable to clean this mess up, then let the playerbase do it the only way we can; with blazing guns!
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EvilSyKOSkitzo
Crabbs
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Posted - 2007.02.12 06:39:00 -
[2709]
So basically,
CCP has decided to:
1. Make T20 applogise for using his DEV abilities to cheat 2. Return the T2 BPOs which where acquired by T20 3. And, they have set up a special unit
Have I missed something? Because, I swear that after reading through Kugs forum there was a lot more to this whole fiasco.
CCP I'am not going to quit EVE but I'am going to ask what credibility do you have left? Was it worth you taking such a lenient approach towards T20 and the BOB members involved in this?
- Evil
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:42:00 -
[2710]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus ...bla blah... to make a year old incident with little to no impact on the game ...blah blah
Dude, if I had won that BPO one year ago, I can assure you it would have made a HUGE impact for ->me<-.
For you as an individual: yes.. For t20 as an individual: yes.. For BoB as a whole and its effect on their Military achivements: insignificant to nil.. The bpos will be reseeded and youll have your insignificant (this is not sarcasm or a flame its simply the truth) chance to get it.. t20's possesion of it had an insignificant effect on eve as a whole as all the items he made with said bpos were already available in the markets for all to buy in more than sufficient quantitys..
So ya little to no impact on the game..
Of course there are still several questions around this that really need some answers.
Were these spawned or was the tech2 lottery manipulated to get these?
Were these caught by CCP's reviewing the logs and thier new system or from the mails that were stolen from BoB's website?
If the mails were the source why do the lists not match?
Why were they left if they were ill-gotten goods?
Why did it take this ****-storm to have action taken if the investigation was over several months ago?
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 06:42:00 -
[2711]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/02/2007 05:25:41
As much as I hate it, the logoffski maneuver is not a breach of the EULA, so why would anyone get punished for it?
When used in a bubblecamp to escape being killed its an exploit.. one that can be proven through the logs but as all of eve is doing it its not practical to enforce.. Cant ban a quarter of the playerbase can we.. All I brought that up for was to bring a little levety into the discussion is all.. To remind some of our more rabid posters out for dev/bob blood that the t20 infraction is just one more part of eve that isn't roses and sunshine and perfect.. And maybe to remind some of those who are baying for blood that they may be a bit guilty of exploits themselves.. Can't call the kettle black if your a skillet ya know..
Odd, you do realise that you imply that a quarter of the playing devs create T2 prints for themselves, Im sure that is not your intention but thats what you are saying...
I also spotted in your earlier thread that this was a year old issue, well I cant speak for anyone else but the first time I saw evidence that misconduct had taken place was just a few days ago, I had heard rumors but would not, could not belive that a dev would cheat and give himself, his corp or his friends any unfair advantage especially as the CCP stated penalty for this is termination from the company.
Well now we have, from t20's own hands a confession that he did not only cheat to get some mundane items but T2 BPO's, nomatter what level T2 BPO's represent the pinnacle of what you can own in this game, only Titans and Motherships could be considered more impressive.
The claim by Kieron is that this was found out about 6 months ago and that t20 was punished back then for this missconduct.
The questions naturally are: A) why was t20 not terminated back then? B) why were the prints not removed back then? C) why were not the benificiaries of the ill gotten prints fined for using them?
Remember here that there has been a number of similar cases where people who have aquired isk by ill gotten ways and given isk to an unaware third party and this third party has been fined. A similar crime should have a similar punishment.
We then come to the fact that you have known about this issue for a whole year, a full six months longer than CCP has. This is an interesting slip, if you indeed are a BoB alt (If you are then you are a noname in that alliance, you are actually doing more damage to CCP and BoB than you do good) this would be proof that this is a far bigger problem than we have thus far seen, it would also meen all your accounts should be permabanned as per the rules.
As for exploiting people crying foul at every moment... yes they do, that is the nature of cheaters, abuse every meens possible to further their own goals. However its also the nature of cheaters to against all reason claim innocence or trivialize the crime when caught with claims such as everyon does it, it wasnt really a crime at all...
You dear sir fill that role admirably.
Now quit posting before you really manage to get yourself permabanned, CCP will be needing your subscription money once this is over and done with
|
Booster Junkie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:50:00 -
[2712]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus For BoB as a whole and its effect on their Military achivements: insignificant to nil.. t20's possesion of it had an insignificant effect on eve as a whole.
So ya little to no impact on the game..
Proof or STFU.
^^ That has a whole new flavor to it now, but I kind of like how it tastes.
|
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:53:00 -
[2713]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus The bpos will be reseeded and youll have your insignificant (this is not sarcasm or a flame its simply the truth) chance to get it..
Six months later. We have no idea what would have happened if the same BPOs wound up in some small corp that would have had the huge financial boost it needed to buy other tech2 BPOs, grow up, and join other 0.0 alliances.
Quote:
t20's possesion of it had an insignificant effect on eve as a whole as all the items he made with said bpos were already available in the markets for all to buy in more than sufficient quantitys..
And once again you ignore the importance of strategic availability of interdictors and ammo *WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED*, without the need for BoB alliance members to either farm cash or to make trips to empire to pick them up. Timesavings used to PvP, and gain more of an advantage. If sold, money earned to buy OTHER tech2 BPOs and gain more of an advantage.
Why are you deliberately ignoring this point time and time again and focusing solely on the market value of these BPOs as the fraction of RKK's net worth? Yes, they *could* have farmed to buy the same assets, but they didn't have to -- they got the advantage for free.
Do you honestly think e.g. goons with nearly free 'best' interdictors (aka suicide ships) wouldn't have made a bigger dent in other alliances by now?
Quote:
So ya little to no impact on the game..
We will never know. One thing's for sure -- alliances fighting BoB would not turn down the use of the same BPOs for six months, worthless as they may be.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 06:57:00 -
[2714]
Originally by: MrDisposable No Ctrl+q is not a valid subject in this thread about.... are you paying attention.... DEV MISCONDUCT
I know this is difficult when your foaming at the mouth, troll but I want you to do something. Look at the title of the thread. What does it say? Now go back thru the other 96 pages.. anything about Ctrl+Q? Either you have ADHD or are doing what BoB always does... side tracks. This isn't about BoB.
This thread is about T20 and his (Dred'edit.. pay close attention to this next word)------>CHEATING<-------.
Oh.. so this thread is about cheating and its possible ramifications in the game and punishments for said actions? Dear me.. how did I miss that..
Quote: This is about the actions taken against him balanced by the actions taken against the spawning GM 7 motnhs ago. Since Kug has been a victim (willing) in all this and been banned, this brings up why Sir Molle should get equal treatment. I guess this thread is about equality.
Well not to be to harsh but as far as t20 and the GM go thats internal CCP business and no business of yours or any subscriber to the game.. CPP has all the relavent info to make the descision to fire or discipline a member of its staff for an infraction and can be fined huge amounts of money if internal disciplinary action details are disclosed in public.. As far as the Kug vs Molle thing its pretty simple for me.. CCP has discretionary power in enforcing the EULA based on the severity of the infraction and the reputaion of said player.. Kug = known griefer hacker with no good intentions to eve and Molle = mostly good player who contributes to eve.. Kinda makes who to keep and who to boot kinda simple eh?
Quote: Oh btw I have never fought against BoB, actually I have never even been on that side of 0.0 I do not have an agenda against BoB. I have one against uneven treatment. So if you are done being stupid I think we can continue in this thread about.... nm you probally stopped reading already.
Yup and I believe that just like you do me.. See the irony?
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:01:00 -
[2715]
Originally by: Booster Junkie
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus For BoB as a whole and its effect on their Military achivements: insignificant to nil.. t20's possesion of it had an insignificant effect on eve as a whole.
So ya little to no impact on the game..
Proof or STFU.
^^ That has a whole new flavor to it now, but I kind of like how it tastes.
ROFL..
hehe.. thats the rub mate.. noone here can get any valid proof at all that anyone will beleive.. Just the same ole retoric from all sides.. But hey it passes the time till the next skill change..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:06:00 -
[2716]
It seems to me the account sharing part of the EULA needs to be removed.
It's not really enforced, it feels more like a bunch of the driving infraction laws here in the US, they are there just so that the police can pull you over when they want to.
I've been thinking about it for a few days, basically kept up with this whole thread and the crux of the issue for me is: why didn't CCP remove the offending BPOs when t20 was discovered 6+ months ago?
If CCP can answer this in a reasonable way, I think I will be mostly ok with the matter.
--- Thoughts on "recent events"
|
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:12:00 -
[2717]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable
Well not to be to harsh but as far as t20 and the GM go thats internal CCP business and no business of yours or any subscriber to the game..
Well, we can try and make ourselves heard when something blatantly stinks. Then when in a few months subscriber totals aren't up to projections, perhaps someone would go "You know. Maybe it isn't the size of the advertisement budget this quarter, maybe we should reign in GMs and devs abusing their powers to grief the paying customers?"
Quote:
As far as the Kug vs Molle thing its pretty simple for me.. CCP has discretionary power in enforcing the EULA based on the severity of the infraction and the reputaion of said player.. Kug = known griefer hacker with no good intentions to eve and Molle = mostly good player who contributes to eve.. Kinda makes who to keep and who to boot kinda simple eh?
You can't possibly be this simple. If you're a popular player (or in this case member of the right alliance) you can ignore rules which are enforced for everyone else? This is utter garbage and you know it. Selective law enforcement has always resulted in poor outcomes for all. Selective rule enforcement is a bad idea for an online game. When you think about it for a bit (hint: think dollars from the few popular players immune from rules vs. entire player base constrained by them) and you'll see why.
Or, you're simply a troll as others have stated.
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MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:12:00 -
[2718]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 07:11:38
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable No Ctrl+q is not a valid subject in this thread about.... are you paying attention.... DEV MISCONDUCT
I know this is difficult when your foaming at the mouth, troll but I want you to do something. Look at the title of the thread. What does it say? Now go back thru the other 96 pages.. anything about Ctrl+Q? Either you have ADHD or are doing what BoB always does... side tracks. This isn't about BoB.
This thread is about T20 and his
Oh.. so this thread is about cheating and its possible ramifications in the game and punishments for said actions? Dear me.. how did I miss that..
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Fuujin Take the logoffski garbage somewhere else, this isn't the thread for it.
Actually your correct.. I was only using it as one example of all the other forms of cheating in eve that noone ever gets called out on.. Not to start a logoffski disscussion..
Drugs are bad m'kay.
Oh and do not put words in my mouth. Lets see how you like it
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus I am an obvious BoB troll who is also mentally challenged
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus [Well not to be to harsh but as far as t20 and the GM go thats internal CCP business and no business of yours or any subscriber to the game.. CPP has all the relavent info to make the descision to fire or discipline a member of its staff for an infraction and can be fined huge amounts of money if internal disciplinary action details are disclosed in public.. As far as the Kug vs Molle thing its pretty simple for me.. CCP has discretionary power in enforcing the EULA based on the severity of the infraction and the reputaion of said player.. Kug = known griefer hacker with no good intentions to eve and Molle = mostly good player who contributes to eve.. Kinda makes who to keep and who to boot kinda simple eh?
Preferential treatment is what this entire thread is about and yet here you are arguing for it. Ok So if Orc A, CYVOK, DS or Seleene where to post personal information about DBP that would be ok right? Your logic is retarded.
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus [ Quote: Oh btw I have never fought against BoB, actually I have never even been on that side of 0.0 I do not have an agenda against BoB. I have one against uneven treatment. So if you are done being stupid I think we can continue in this thread about.... nm you probally stopped reading already.
Yup and I believe that just like you do me.. See the irony?
Whatever. I will let my actions speak for themself, yours have spoken for you. ______________ BoB Alt
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" |
Rugin Astra
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:21:00 -
[2719]
I doubt any information on the Sir Molle situation will be forthcoming as it would violate the CCP rule of not discussing GM decisions.
From what I've read, rumors of favortism and inappropriate employee/volunteer behavior have been around for years. Some measures were in place to audit logs and such. Yet, only recently additional measures have been instituted to police themselves internally, according to Mr. Hellmar's blog. So, why now to institute the IA division and revisit the policies? If you are genuinely concerned with the perception of your game, I say bravo! and late is better than never.
The cynic in me fears that it may be too little, too late. Currently, a portion of the playerbase believes an unsavory persona on the internet has more credibility than CCP's community manager. And these added measures and admissions seem more a tactic to placate a vocal portion of the customer base than a legitimate attempt to bring integrity to the game.
One of CCP's employees showed more loyalty to a player organization than he did to CCP. (If there is another explanation/interpretation for his behavior please tell me.) He is not only still employed by CCP, but the company seemingly hid his actions from the community until months later.
So what happens if I file a petition, do GM's recuse themselves if they are affiliated with those involved in the incident or were a part of it? How am I guranteed or even remotely confident that I have my grevience read by an impartial person.
There is a quote from a televison mini-series, "Never put yourself in a position where you can take from these men." I do not wish to draw parallels between the context that was said in and the current situation. But, I do believe CCP should take to heart an ammended version of it: Never put yourself in a position where you can appear to take from a segment of the community for the benefit of your own character or friends.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.12 07:23:00 -
[2720]
JESUS
Information doesn't kill you...
|
|
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:25:00 -
[2721]
Jesus -
You are totally discredited. Perhaps you and Maya are both being paid by the same master. Please leave the discussion, your thoughts are irrelevant and have been discredited. There are others who are making similar posts and who have some credibility. Your continued posting is detracting from their . . . limited believability.
amen we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Gut Punch
Gallente The Revenant
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:28:00 -
[2722]
CCP: Are we going to get answers to direct questions asked in this thread?? Why should I follow the EULA? BoB doesn't and yet you still let them exist in the game. In fact, how can you even ask us to follow any rules at all? You don't follow your own!
Why did you wait 6 months to tell us?Why didn't you remove the BPOs and all items/money created from it 6 months agoIt is clear that the leadership of RKK, and probably others in BoB, knew about the cheating but they are still allowed to play?How are you going to prevent this sort of thing from happening again? What are you going to do to dev players to keep this from happening again?How do you plan to reassure all of us who don't play in BoB that we are getting a fair chance?What are you going to do for those of us who where systematically silenced when we asked questions about your conduct?Most importantly, in the very competitive MMORPG market of today, how do you expect to attract new players or keep your current playerbase after the media coverage of this disaster and your attempts to white wash and sweep it under the rug?
See, it all boils down to the question: Why should I stay here in this game? Why should any of us who don't play in BoB? The playing field isn't level. You ruthlessly enforce the EULA for us "small people" while you turn a blind eye to those you play with. You cover up the blatent favortism you have.
Ask yourself what advantage your game has over the vast collection available on the Internet? ---
--- How many more devs play in BoB? Why did it take 6 months for you to tell us? WHEN WILL YOU TELL US THE FULL STORY? |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:32:00 -
[2723]
Um, guys?
Gut Punch has a point.
And still I quote Ender:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:35:00 -
[2724]
Originally by: Fester Addams
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus stuff
Odd, you do realise that you imply that a quarter of the playing devs create T2 prints for themselves, Im sure that is not your intention but thats what you are saying..
No *you* just implied it.. I said the playerbase not the devs..
Quote: I also spotted in your earlier thread that this was a year old issue, well I cant speak for anyone else but the first time I saw evidence that misconduct had taken place was just a few days ago, I had heard rumors but would not, could not belive that a dev would cheat and give himself, his corp or his friends any unfair advantage especially as the CCP stated penalty for this is termination from the company.
No matter what t20 did he was *one*(singular) dev and was found out and punished for it.. The severity of his discipline is CCP's matter not mine or yours.. Who gets fired and who gets unpaid time off or a pay cut or whatever they did to discpline t20 is also an internal matter as its a private company.. You are not required by law to give the same punishment for the same crime in any system of law.. Point is that we have no details about how the GM's interview over his infraction went and never will.. Maybe the GM had an attitude or completely lame excuse and was canned for it? Maybe t20 was testing out some private thoery and the bpos were part of that test and he convinced CCP its was not meant to be cheating and was for the good of the game as a whole and they agreed? Who knows.. and we never will..
Quote: Well now we have, from t20's own hands a confession that he did not only cheat to get some mundane items but T2 BPO's, nomatter what level T2 BPO's represent the pinnacle of what you can own in this game, only Titans and Motherships could be considered more impressive.
For a player yes.. for a dev no.. hes playing the game to *further* the game.. Not like a subscruber who pays his monthty to grind his way to glory and have everyone admire his cunning and savvy.. If he spawned the items then more than likey there was a good dev related reason to do so that had something to do with his job as a dev.. maybe it was something he wanted to try but was turned down by higher ups? They did catch him and punish him you know.. nothing has been supressed that a company would normally make public.. any company..
Quote: stuff
look earlier in the thread.. im just repeating what someone else said about it being a year ago..
Quote: Now quit posting before you really manage to get yourself permabanned, CCP will be needing your subscription money once this is over and done with
Why would I be permabanned?
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:40:00 -
[2725]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 07:42:05 Wow dred... so now we should all be thanking T20 for giving T2 BPOs to BoB. My good god man do you even read the stuff you type?
HE HIMSELF admitted it was wrong.
CCP has stated before that any employee found to cheat will be canned. This inspires consumer confidence in their product. So far CCP has lied.
Quote: look earlier in the thread.. im just repeating what someone else said about it being a year ago..
So now you just believe everything anyone tells you. No research or investigation.. nada. Ok its all starting to make sense now. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:40:00 -
[2726]
Jesus -
Now it's time for you to come clean.
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I?
so which are you?
And am I misquoting:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Liquid Vision
Caldari Liquid Research
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:45:00 -
[2727]
I doubt we ever get an answer. Pretty simple reason why too. The highest high ups at CCP are the ones involved. Just hear me out and try not to scream tin-foil hat before you read it.
CCP was created, in part, by a LARGE group of people that played in the same guild over on Ultima Online. Supposedly they were a buncha pvp griefers and ruled with an iron-fist. Anyways. . .all those guys came over to CCP and MANY of them are on the dev team. So, you gotta buncha guys that played together in UO and then started their own game or started their own crew inside a game they were developing, whatever you wanna call it. Why is it such a leap of imagination to believe that these guys would want to play together again? Of COURSE they would. So, this idea that there are devs in EVERY alliance and blah blah blah is just as unfounded as the idea that ALL devs are in BOB. . .and I'd be willing to suggest that the latter is MUCH more plausible than the former. In fact, while it can't be "proven" of course. . .many folks in the know suspect that Oveur and kieron themselves play in BOB as well as Lemonde (who might not even be of voting age yet he's a dev. . .no offense Lemonde)
So, this idea that T20 is the ONLY dev in BOB and the ONLY dev helping BOB is just as asinine as any wild-eyed conspiracy theory thrown out there. However, I'd argue that circumstances seem to point towards multiple high-ranking devs/employees being in BOB and giving them an unfair advantage. Of course we'll never know unless kugutsumen decides to hack CCP and expose their logs, because they sure as hell aren't gonna spill the beans. They had 6 months to place all the blame on T20 and be up-front with the community and instead they covered it up. Probably because the rest of them are just as guilty as T20.
|
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:51:00 -
[2728]
Originally by: Liquid Vision I doubt we ever get an answer. Pretty simple reason why too. The highest high ups at CCP are the ones involved. Just hear me out and try not to scream tin-foil hat before you read it.
CCP was created, in part, by a LARGE group of people that played in the same guild over on Ultima Online. Supposedly they were a buncha pvp griefers and ruled with an iron-fist. Anyways. . .all those guys came over to CCP and MANY of them are on the dev team. So, you gotta buncha guys that played together in UO and then started their own game or started their own crew inside a game they were developing, whatever you wanna call it. Why is it such a leap of imagination to believe that these guys would want to play together again? Of COURSE they would. So, this idea that there are devs in EVERY alliance and blah blah blah is just as unfounded as the idea that ALL devs are in BOB. . .and I'd be willing to suggest that the latter is MUCH more plausible than the former. In fact, while it can't be "proven" of course. . .many folks in the know suspect that Oveur and kieron themselves play in BOB as well as Lemonde (who might not even be of voting age yet he's a dev. . .no offense Lemonde)
So, this idea that T20 is the ONLY dev in BOB and the ONLY dev helping BOB is just as asinine as any wild-eyed conspiracy theory thrown out there. However, I'd argue that circumstances seem to point towards multiple high-ranking devs/employees being in BOB and giving them an unfair advantage. Of course we'll never know unless kugutsumen decides to hack CCP and expose their logs, because they sure as hell aren't gonna spill the beans. They had 6 months to place all the blame on T20 and be up-front with the community and instead they covered it up. Probably because the rest of them are just as guilty as T20.
Well FFS.. finally a plausible conspiracy theory.. At least *This* one makes sense.. I applaud you Liquid.. But yeah your right.. We we will never know..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:55:00 -
[2729]
Liquid -
Thanks for the help on the other post.
Jesus -
Please come clean.
And still I quote Ender:
we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:59:00 -
[2730]
I do not think it matters either way really contrary to my sig.
This is about A dev cheating, who knew about it, and why it seems so little was done. Why was there a possible white-wash and what is CCP going to do about it?
A side note is given the same actions, why two different results. Kug is banned Sir Molle is not, they both posted personal information on the forums. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
|
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 07:59:00 -
[2731]
Originally by: MrDisposable Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 07:42:05 Wow dred... so now we should all be thanking T20 for giving T2 BPOs to BoB. My good god man do you even read the stuff you type?
HE HIMSELF admitted it was wrong.
CCP has stated before that any employee found to cheat will be canned. This inspires consumer confidence in their product. So far CCP has lied.
So the possiblilty that he was doing it as an experiment for some idea he had for the game is not viable to you? That maybe when the final vote arrived over termination or internal discplinary action they felt that what he did was indeed not a cheat and actually served some purpose? So by your reckoning t20's sole reason was to get a huge e-peen with his bob mates and forward bobs cause then? Thats a huge conclusion with no hard info to back it up..
Quote: look earlier in the thread.. im just repeating what someone else said about it being a year ago..
So now you just believe everything anyone tells you. No research or investigation.. nada. Ok its all starting to make sense now.
I'm doing just as much if not more research than you mate.. Its just fun making you work at things to discredit me with.. Funny when you find yourself dancing to anothers tune eh?
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:00:00 -
[2732]
Jesus -
Still no answer? we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:04:00 -
[2733]
Originally by: Morgain dVher Jesus -
Please come clean.
Ok Ok.. I'm actually in the paid employ of star trek online to sow fear and distrust amongst the competing mmo's.. Wait till you see the Anarchy Online forums tommorow..
and if you believe any of that you'll probably take the majority of the responces in this thread that way too..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Morgain dVher
Minmatar The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:07:00 -
[2734]
Maya is gone, Jesus is here. I'm human and need to sleep. Keep pressing people, even after those who started are banned. There's a problem here and ther will be no answers without pressure. Any corp that is attacked by BoB now must assume that its being attacked by CCP as well until proven otherwise.
I hope I can comment tomorrow. If not, I'll start a blog and find a way to link players to it. Tinfoil hat on, logging off. we do not, and never have tolarated to even a slight degree, any cheating within EVE. We are much too fully aware of the possible consequences of allowing any cheating to go on among the GM's. |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:09:00 -
[2735]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 08:06:22
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
So the possiblilty that he was doing it as an experiment for some idea he had for the game is not viable to you? That maybe when the final vote arrived over termination or internal discplinary action they felt that what he did was indeed not a cheat and actually served some purpose? So by your reckoning t20's sole reason was to get a huge e-peen with his bob mates and forward bobs cause then? Thats a huge conclusion with no hard info to back it up..
Hey look a blog
Quote: look earlier in the thread.. im just repeating what someone else said about it being a year ago..
Quote: I'm doing just as much if not more research than you mate.. Its just fun making you work at things to discredit me with.. Funny when you find yourself dancing to anothers tune eh?
I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Everything I have stated is not heresay. Sir Molle did post personal information on the forums. T20 did cheat. CCP has shown favoritism.
Proof or STFU ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:09:00 -
[2736]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 12/02/2007 08:06:03
Originally by: Morgain dVher Maya is gone, Jesus is here. I'm human and need to sleep. Keep pressing people, even after those who started are banned. There's a problem here and ther will be no answers without pressure. Any corp that is attacked by BoB now must assume that its being attacked by CCP as well until proven otherwise.
I hope I can comment tomorrow. If not, I'll start a blog and find a way to link players to it. Tinfoil hat on, logging off.
Oh christ(!) man give it a break.. Its sunday FFS.. If after DT on monday there is no more official info then plz try to break the 400 page barrier..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:12:00 -
[2737]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 08:10:00
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 12/02/2007 08:06:03
Originally by: Morgain dVher Maya is gone, Jesus is here. I'm human and need to sleep. Keep pressing people, even after those who started are banned. There's a problem here and ther will be no answers without pressure. Any corp that is attacked by BoB now must assume that its being attacked by CCP as well until proven otherwise.
I hope I can comment tomorrow. If not, I'll start a blog and find a way to link players to it. Tinfoil hat on, logging off.
Oh christ(!) man give it a break.. Its sunday FFS.. If after DT on monday there is no more official info then plz try to break the 400 page barrier..
Its monday 8:09 a.m. in iceland as of your posting. Is there anything you are ever right about?
Oh by what you said I can then expect you to disappear in 5 hours never to be seen again in this thread eh? OMG thank you so much!!!! ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:13:00 -
[2738]
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:16:00 -
[2739]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Who is dancing now?
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:16:00 -
[2740]
Originally by: MrDisposable Its monday 8:09 a.m. in iceland as of your posting. Is there anything you are ever right about?
Well its still sunday were im at And everyone in iceland is just now trudging into the office to start the daily grind and try to put together a finalized responce.. think you would have it all ready at opening time on the first day after the weekend? Sheese impatient people..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
|
Dravin Dread
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:17:00 -
[2741]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
<whatever>
Do not feed the troll. |
Obivan Efa
The Machines
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:19:00 -
[2742]
Funny.. If anyone of you did cheatings whould you limit yourself to several not top BPO's? Seems like somebody is just pulling our community's leg.
"I don't belive it" (c)Konstantin Stanislavski ____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:19:00 -
[2743]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable Its monday 8:09 a.m. in iceland as of your posting. Is there anything you are ever right about?
Well its still sunday were im at And everyone in iceland is just now trudging into the office to start the daily grind and try to put together a finalized responce.. think you would have it all ready at opening time on the first day after the weekend? Sheese impatient people..
Let's face it, something of this magnitude (almost 100 pages in one thread after 3 days?) might be a reason to work on the weekend... --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:19:00 -
[2744]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll.
I dare anyone to refute this ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:20:00 -
[2745]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 12/02/2007 08:16:17
Originally by: MrDisposable Who is dancing now?
We both are with each other.. ain't it fun?
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:22:00 -
[2746]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable Its monday 8:09 a.m. in iceland as of your posting. Is there anything you are ever right about?
Well its still sunday were im at And everyone in iceland is just now trudging into the office to start the daily grind and try to put together a finalized responce.. think you would have it all ready at opening time on the first day after the weekend? Sheese impatient people..
Let's face it, something of this magnitude (almost 100 pages in one thread after 3 days?) might be a reason to work on the weekend...
I'm sure they have been.. but sheese at least let them get a few cups of coffee and a last minute meeting in..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:26:00 -
[2747]
Dred, I ask, doesn't it bother you that the info that K released was pretty accurate and that his site has other allegations? He got the dev, the corp, the bpos, and the dates all right, but the rest of it is speculation? Doesn't that seem a stretch?
Furthermore, we have proof from the devs mouths that they are willing to keep things quiet when it comes to devs cheating. It follows that *IF* there were other cheating devs we would not know about it from CCP either, right?
Again, until some whistleblower splatters undeniable facts to web, I can only assume that if some other wrong doing happens from devs at CCP, that we would be none-the-wiser.
Doesn't that eat at you, just a little? --- Thoughts on "recent events"
|
Photon Lightwielder
Amarr Divine Retribution
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:27:00 -
[2748]
Originally by: Gut Punch CCP: Are we going to get answers to direct questions asked in this thread?? Why should I follow the EULA? BoB doesn't and yet you still let them exist in the game. In fact, how can you even ask us to follow any rules at all? You don't follow your own!
Why did you wait 6 months to tell us?Why didn't you remove the BPOs and all items/money created from it 6 months agoIt is clear that the leadership of RKK, and probably others in BoB, knew about the cheating but they are still allowed to play?How are you going to prevent this sort of thing from happening again? What are you going to do to dev players to keep this from happening again?How do you plan to reassure all of us who don't play in BoB that we are getting a fair chance?What are you going to do for those of us who where systematically silenced when we asked questions about your conduct?Most importantly, in the very competitive MMORPG market of today, how do you expect to attract new players or keep your current playerbase after the media coverage of this disaster and your attempts to white wash and sweep it under the rug?
See, it all boils down to the question: Why should I stay here in this game? Why should any of us who don't play in BoB? The playing field isn't level. You ruthlessly enforce the EULA for us "small people" while you turn a blind eye to those you play with. You cover up the blatent favortism you have.
Ask yourself what advantage your game has over the vast collection available on the Internet?
This guy for prez. All valid claims, needs to be answered!
|
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:33:00 -
[2749]
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
<whatever>
Do not feed the troll.
You know what I find amusing Dravin? For the last two days I've been online and going to each races npc corp channle getting in game responces from the in game populace that outnumbers the in forum population by about a factor of 10.. Guess what the majority of the responces were to any attempt to bring up this topic?
"blocked"
Anyone who actually responded said things of the nature that it was just the "conspiracy of the week" and "you actually go to the forums?!" Its also interesting to note that alot of people in that channle claimed to be alts of bob or lv or ascn or whatever alliance they mentioned.. All of them were of the opinion that it was a non issue or not worth thier time to bother with.. All of them.. thats just bloody amazing.. in forum we have yet another fiasco and ingame noone give a rats ass and wants to be left alone to chat and play eve..
Not trying to draw any conclusions but it *is* an intresting observation..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:36:00 -
[2750]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
<whatever>
Do not feed the troll.
You know what I find amusing Dravin? For the last two days I've been online and going to each races npc corp channle getting in game responces from the in game populace that outnumbers the in forum population by about a factor of 10.. Guess what the majority of the responces were to any attempt to bring up this topic?
"blocked"
Anyone who actually responded said things of the nature that it was just the "conspiracy of the week" and "you actually go to the forums?!" Its also interesting to note that alot of people in that channle claimed to be alts of bob or lv or ascn or whatever alliance they mentioned.. All of them were of the opinion that it was a non issue or not worth thier time to bother with.. All of them.. thats just bloody amazing.. in forum we have yet another fiasco and ingame noone give a rats ass and wants to be left alone to chat and play eve..
Not trying to draw any conclusions but it *is* an intresting observation..
So, lemme see if I have this straight, people who don't go to the forums, don't have any knowledge, and are self-admittedly ignorant, say it's no big deal?
Lemme chalk that up as valuable information. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
|
|
Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:36:00 -
[2751]
What is CCP and Staff going to do with things like this? "Lord Stone (from Reykjavik, Iceland, where CCP is based), who was applying to join Reikoku, a corporation that's part of the BoB alliance, in March of 2005. Lord Stone's life was fairly unremarkable until March of the following year, when he was appointed to be a director in the corporation"
This is fine by CCP? Is Devs going to continue to be in huge corps and be fleetcommanders?
"I Will Drug You and Fluff You, through the permafrost"
|
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:36:00 -
[2752]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Who is dancing now?
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll.
Let me quote something:
[...]I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing. [...]
That means T20 worked alone. So neither CCP nor RKK did know anything. Now in a true justice society, based on all countries in the world (except for those countries that give a dam in justice) all accusations have to be proved before told guilty. T20 have told us tht he spawned the BPOs fine. But he also told us he worked alone. And untill someone proves otherwise, this is what we should work from! What you are doing is hurting innocent players by accusing BoB for cheating when T20 works alone! In my opinion and in most legal justice societies, clearly and wrongly accusing people for something they have not done is just as bad as doing other criminal acts.
Why not just let this topic die now please?
We have got our answers. T20 have got its punishment, and its time to move on! I am sure CCP will handle any future cases if they should pop up, as they have did in this case. Even before it got into public!
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
|
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:37:00 -
[2753]
You know what is funny? Every time I have brought it up be it in alliance on my main or in the NPC corp channels people ask for links and start discussing it. Just goes to show you that these are completely subjective assertions eh?
______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:40:00 -
[2754]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Who is dancing now?
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll.
Let me quote something:
[...]I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing. [...]
That means T20 worked alone. So neither CCP nor RKK did know anything. Now in a true justice society, based on all countries in the world (except for those countries that give a dam in justice) all accusations have to be proved before told guilty. T20 have told us tht he spawned the BPOs fine. But he also told us he worked alone. And untill someone proves otherwise, this is what we should work from! What you are doing is hurting innocent players by accusing BoB for cheating when T20 works alone! In my opinion and in most legal justice societies, clearly and wrongly accusing people for something they have not done is just as bad as doing other criminal acts.
Why not just let this topic die now please?
We have got our answers. T20 have got its punishment, and its time to move on! I am sure CCP will handle any future cases if they should pop up, as they have did in this case. Even before it got into public!
Dude, go read the website. Unless you wish to reject everything else but what has been exactly correct so far, there is the same proof that exposed t20 that exposes that RKK leadership knew, and more than one member, that they had a dev in their midst. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
|
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:41:00 -
[2755]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Who is dancing now?
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll.
Let me quote something:
[...]I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing. [...]
That means T20 worked alone. So neither CCP nor RKK did know anything. Now in a true justice society, based on all countries in the world (except for those countries that give a dam in justice) all accusations have to be proved before told guilty. T20 have told us tht he spawned the BPOs fine. But he also told us he worked alone. And untill someone proves otherwise, this is what we should work from! What you are doing is hurting innocent players by accusing BoB for cheating when T20 works alone! In my opinion and in most legal justice societies, clearly and wrongly accusing people for something they have not done is just as bad as doing other criminal acts.
Why not just let this topic die now please?
We have got our answers. T20 have got its punishment, and its time to move on! I am sure CCP will handle any future cases if they should pop up, as they have did in this case. Even before it got into public!
1) The point=○_____you=☺ here is where you are in relation to it ○----------------------------------------------------------☺
2)HE confessed to the crime after another source posted the exact details of it. T20 has no credibility and by his small admission he unknowningly confirmed the source. This mole hill is becoming a mountain. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:41:00 -
[2756]
Originally by: Mortania Dred, I ask, doesn't it bother you that the info that K released was pretty accurate and that his site has other allegations? He got the dev, the corp, the bpos, and the dates all right, but the rest of it is speculation? Doesn't that seem a stretch?
Furthermore, we have proof from the devs mouths that they are willing to keep things quiet when it comes to devs cheating. It follows that *IF* there were other cheating devs we would not know about it from CCP either, right?
Again, until some whistleblower splatters undeniable facts to web, I can only assume that if some other wrong doing happens from devs at CCP, that we would be none-the-wiser.
Doesn't that eat at you, just a little?
Yeah it actually does eat at me.. I just guess the difference is that I still have faith in the integrity of CCP and that this issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of the intelligent and thoughtful members of the community.. Granted that no matter what new info is released certain factions in these forums will still cry foul and denounce whatever info is released as smoke and mirrors..
And as far a K is concerned hes a professonal hacker who has a tendency to get at info like that.. thing is you only have his word that the extra stuff he listed was really in the db and happened.. He might just be cunning enought to do a frame up.. give out the accurate info to get ccp to fess up and then plant additional info to make ccp look like they are covering it up and get his revenge..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
comrade christopher
Minmatar Quantar Swords
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:44:00 -
[2757]
Edited by: comrade christopher on 12/02/2007 08:42:25 Edited by: comrade christopher on 12/02/2007 08:41:01 Where does this madness come from, ffs ?!
Unfair advantage gained by having dev char in alliance makes most of us, eve community, sadly disappointed. Tha fact that it has been uncovered by a player, not CCP themselves make it's look bad. Keeping it in secret for over 6 months makes all of this look even worst.
But ffs, I just cant stand a wall of whiners spamming this thread like mad.
Community is, and should be keeping pressure on them. They should know how it taste to losse our trust.
But some ppl just go too far here....
Demanding explaionations from CCP - OK Demanding heads - wtf ?
"Try walking in my shoes" anyone ??
CCP are already handling this mater.
Dev responsible for this, has already been punished. If CCP decided that he should keep his job, than let it be, I would never ask to frack his rl over this foolish act he commited, when on the other hand he also did so much for EVE from development side.
Just imagine what kind of hell t20 is going through atm. I believe that from all ppl in CCP he would now be the last one to breach of community confidence.
He has a debt to pay, let him do it, let him work on regaining our trust.
and finaly - GO BACK TO GAME Go shoot, mine, explore, or whatever you do out there, some things jsut can't be undone, so stop digging deeper in open wound, let it heal !
If u feel like quitting eve cause of that than just do it.
There is still a lot of ppl that just wanna move on with their in-game lifes.
"Eve is not game - it's lifestyle ;) "
|
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:45:00 -
[2758]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
And as far a K is concerned hes a professonal hacker who has a tendency to get at info like that.. thing is you only have his word that the extra stuff he listed was really in the db and happened.. He might just be cunning enought to do a frame up.. give out the accurate info to get ccp to fess up and then plant additional info to make ccp look like they are covering it up and get his revenge..
That whole revenge angle might work cept for the fact he posted this information long before he had reason to take revenge on CCP. Motives aren't backwards compatible.
Speaking of hacking... how did Sir Molle get K's personal information anyway? ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:46:00 -
[2759]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Dravin Dread
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
<whatever>
Do not feed the troll.
You know what I find amusing Dravin? For the last two days I've been online and going to each races npc corp channle getting in game responces from the in game populace that outnumbers the in forum population by about a factor of 10.. Guess what the majority of the responces were to any attempt to bring up this topic?
"blocked"
Anyone who actually responded said things of the nature that it was just the "conspiracy of the week" and "you actually go to the forums?!" Its also interesting to note that alot of people in that channle claimed to be alts of bob or lv or ascn or whatever alliance they mentioned.. All of them were of the opinion that it was a non issue or not worth thier time to bother with.. All of them.. thats just bloody amazing.. in forum we have yet another fiasco and ingame noone give a rats ass and wants to be left alone to chat and play eve..
Not trying to draw any conclusions but it *is* an intresting observation..
So, lemme see if I have this straight, people who don't go to the forums, don't have any knowledge, and are self-admittedly ignorant, say it's no big deal?
Lemme chalk that up as valuable information.
I said *some* people made the remark.. "you go to the forums?! the others all had read up on the topic and were unimpressed to say the least so I'd say the majority of comments were informed.. They just didnt care..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:46:00 -
[2760]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Mortania Dred, I ask, doesn't it bother you that the info that K released was pretty accurate and that his site has other allegations? He got the dev, the corp, the bpos, and the dates all right, but the rest of it is speculation? Doesn't that seem a stretch?
Furthermore, we have proof from the devs mouths that they are willing to keep things quiet when it comes to devs cheating. It follows that *IF* there were other cheating devs we would not know about it from CCP either, right?
Again, until some whistleblower splatters undeniable facts to web, I can only assume that if some other wrong doing happens from devs at CCP, that we would be none-the-wiser.
Doesn't that eat at you, just a little?
Yeah it actually does eat at me.. I just guess the difference is that I still have faith in the integrity of CCP and that this issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of the intelligent and thoughtful members of the community.. Granted that no matter what new info is released certain factions in these forums will still cry foul and denounce whatever info is released as smoke and mirrors..
And as far a K is concerned hes a professonal hacker who has a tendency to get at info like that.. thing is you only have his word that the extra stuff he listed was really in the db and happened.. He might just be cunning enought to do a frame up.. give out the accurate info to get ccp to fess up and then plant additional info to make ccp look like they are covering it up and get his revenge..
Agreed. But we have corroborating evidence from ASCN that what he posted from their site was a verbatim dump, no added florish. This added to the fact that what CCP has admitted to matches up spot on with postings leaves a lot of doubt in my mind.
But, honestly, I don't care about BoB, or SirMolle very much; I want CCP to come forth and be totally open. To be fair, if they had said last summer, "we found one of our devs was cheating, we have suspended his account and forbid him from playing on TQ anymore, and reversed any damages that he had done through his malfesance," I would have said WAY TO GO, CCP! and been done with it.
It's the coverup that I can't seem to get over. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
|
|
Won Swunglow
Dead By Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:46:00 -
[2761]
I suppose at the end of the day, it really comes down to the fact that people are weak when it comes to having a chance to get the upper hand in anything... BoB HC breaks the rules of the game, get away with it, and deny all knowledge. they used inside information to their own advantage. I now understand why people such as DB preacher ect are sooo smugg on the forums... BoB couldnt loose
Looks like my joke sig came true after all
Message to Joshua, just change the alliance map to Blue m8 so we can get it over with.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:48:00 -
[2762]
Originally by: comrade christopher Edited by: comrade christopher on 12/02/2007 08:42:25 Edited by: comrade christopher on 12/02/2007 08:41:01 Where does this madness come from, ffs ?!
Unfair advantage gained by having dev char in alliance makes most of us, eve community, sadly disappointed. Tha fact that it has been uncovered by a player, not CCP themselves make it's look bad. Keeping it in secret for over 6 months makes all of this look even worst.
But ffs, I just cant stand a wall of whiners spamming this thread like mad.
Community is, and should be keeping pressure on them. They should know how it taste to losse our trust.
But some ppl just go too far here....
Demanding explaionations from CCP - OK Demanding heads - wtf ?
"Try walking in my shoes" anyone ??
CCP are already handling this mater.
Dev responsible for this, has already been punished. If CCP decided that he should keep his job, than let it be, I would never ask to frack his rl over this foolish act he commited, when on the other hand he also did so much for EVE from development side.
Just imagine what kind of hell t20 is going through atm. I believe that from all ppl in CCP he would now be the last one to breach of community confidence.
He has a debt to pay, let him do it, let him work on regaining our trust.
and finaly - GO BACK TO GAME Go shoot, mine, explore, or whatever you do out there, some things jsut can't be undone, so stop digging deeper in open wound, let it heal !
If u feel like quitting eve cause of that than just do it.
There is still a lot of ppl that just wanna move on with their in-game lifes.
"Eve is not game - it's lifestyle ;) "
If you want people who can't get over this to quit, I suggest you do the same. Stop reading this thread if you can't handle it. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 08:52:00 -
[2763]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: MrDisposable I really don't need to discredit you, you are doing all the work for me. Check out the sig. Who do you think I got all the BS from?
Errm.. from your posts and comments? Those are all your words not mine.. They might be loosly based on some things *I* said but the twist is all *you* baby..
Who is dancing now?
Dev cheats != fired GM cheats = fired
Sirmolle breaks EULA != permabanned Kugu breaks the EULA = permabanned
These statements are 100% accurate. Proof or STFU troll.
Let me quote something:
[...]I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing. [...]
That means T20 worked alone. So neither CCP nor RKK did know anything. Now in a true justice society, based on all countries in the world (except for those countries that give a dam in justice) all accusations have to be proved before told guilty. T20 have told us tht he spawned the BPOs fine. But he also told us he worked alone. And untill someone proves otherwise, this is what we should work from! What you are doing is hurting innocent players by accusing BoB for cheating when T20 works alone! In my opinion and in most legal justice societies, clearly and wrongly accusing people for something they have not done is just as bad as doing other criminal acts.
Why not just let this topic die now please?
We have got our answers. T20 have got its punishment, and its time to move on! I am sure CCP will handle any future cases if they should pop up, as they have did in this case. Even before it got into public!
According to the article i read _right now_ it is more people involved, so is this realy over? Why are you so eager to hush this under the carpet? You dont want the hole truth. Kierons answer to the community is pretty thin when i compare Kierons statement with this article. _Very thin_
"I Will Drug You and Fluff You, through the permafrost"
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Ladyah Liandri
Take By Surprise Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 08:57:00 -
[2764]
I am just a tiny, tiny cog in the big EVE machinery. I don't live in 0.0, do not belong to any alliance, don't participate in the T2 lottery.
So do I care about this stuff at all?
Well this Sunday must have been the first day within almost a year that I didn't even login to EVE. After reading through the various threads concerning this terrible case I simply couldn't force myself to play.
It's simply too depressing.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 08:57:00 -
[2765]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
And as far a K is concerned hes a professonal hacker who has a tendency to get at info like that.. thing is you only have his word that the extra stuff he listed was really in the db and happened.. He might just be cunning enought to do a frame up.. give out the accurate info to get ccp to fess up and then plant additional info to make ccp look like they are covering it up and get his revenge..
That whole revenge angle might work cept for the fact he posted this information long before he had reason to take revenge on CCP. Motives aren't backwards compatible.
Speaking of hacking... how did Sir Molle get K's personal information anyway?
Maybe they are the same person maybe it arrived in his eve-mail.. I dunno youll have to ask him..
And are you 100% sure he had no reasons and this wasnt some elaborate setup long planned by K? Its about as valid a conspiracy thoery as all the rest..
Personally I think things are alot deeper than we will ever know..
But..
At the end of the day EvE will still be EvE as the majority of the playerbase is in the game and not here.. And I'll say this to the paranoid.. If you think there is a grand BoB/Dev conspiracy vs the rest of eve do you really think its going to be active anymore now that we have this issue in the forums and on the mass media? To those who know how these things work you should sleep better now at night.. For the rest we still have this thread!
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 08:59:00 -
[2766]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
At the end of the day EvE will still be EvE as the majority of the playerbase is in the game and not here..
two monitor setups FTW! --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Brunn
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:01:00 -
[2767]
well the weekend is over, so hopefully we will get a decent answer from CCP
ps. i'm no after blood only answers (like most of us i think)
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MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:05:00 -
[2768]
TBH this whole thing has made me happier for not the greatest of reasons.
1)BoB is finally STFU in the forums and aside from this thread they have been a pleasure to read. I mean just check out CAOD. IF someone could make LV STFU I think you could mistake it for an adult audience.
2)Would-be hackers all over will be clamoring to get the type of fame K has achieved so cheaters better watch their backs, phpBB may be weak against hacking but no system is truly secure.
3)Where as before I may not have had a chance, even though I may not have known it, now I think the odds are more in my favor.
4) BoB STFU'd
______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:05:00 -
[2769]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
At the end of the day EvE will still be EvE as the majority of the playerbase is in the game and not here..
two monitor setups FTW!
LOL.. me too.. granted im doing some trade runs atm and not culling the chat for opinons.. Already got my answers on that one.. Guess I do kinda wish more people would at least come here and post one way or another and not the same 8 of us this last 4 pages.. Me and MrDisposible dont dance well together and we keep stepping on each others toes..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:12:00 -
[2770]
Edited by: MrDisposable on 12/02/2007 09:09:25
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
At the end of the day EvE will still be EvE as the majority of the playerbase is in the game and not here..
two monitor setups FTW!
LOL.. me too.. granted im doing some trade runs atm and not culling the chat for opinons.. Already got my answers on that one.. Guess I do kinda wish more people would at least come here and post one way or another and not the same 8 of us this last 4 pages.. Me and MrDisposible dont dance well together and we keep stepping on each others toes..
lol... thats ok I take very little in life personally, I hope you do aswell. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:13:00 -
[2771]
Originally by: MrDisposable TBH this whole thing has made me happier for not the greatest of reasons.
1)BoB is finally STFU in the forums and aside from this thread they have been a pleasure to read. I mean just check out CAOD. IF someone could make LV STFU I think you could mistake it for an adult audience.
2)Would-be hackers all over will be clamoring to get the type of fame K has achieved so cheaters better watch their backs, phpBB may be weak against hacking but no system is truly secure.
3)Where as before I may not have had a chance, even though I may not have known it, now I think the odds are more in my favor.
4) BoB STFU'd
You know I have noticed an improved selection of topics and general fluffyness of character in the GD since all the Forum PvP is in this thread now..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:13:00 -
[2772]
this ancient thread is mildly apropos:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=34663
Originally by: Rancid Mare are you saying the bloke who runs CCP in real life is the CEO of a corp and that this corp found 2 of the miner 2 bps ?
you cant be saying that at all. not even CCP would be so short sighted to do something this silly.
========== CELES KB: http://celes.griefwatch.net bobKB:http://www.killboard.net
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:18:00 -
[2773]
Edited by: Mortania on 12/02/2007 09:14:42
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth this ancient thread is mildly apropos:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=34663
Originally by: Rancid Mare are you saying the bloke who runs CCP in real life is the CEO of a corp and that this corp found 2 of the miner 2 bps ?
you cant be saying that at all. not even CCP would be so short sighted to do something this silly.
Oh geez, and I was just about to post that people can't use the term tinfoil hat anymore. Please read the whole thread. The info was bad back then.
PS: *THIS* situation is bad enough without trying to dig up **** from 4 years ago. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:19:00 -
[2774]
Time is ticking Kieron. You still havent answered any of our important questions, only the ones that doesnt matter. Its like digging your own grave.
I cant see why it should be so hard to answer our questions. If you arent covering up for something, you should be able to answer whatever we would ask.
We are close to 3000 posts now, and reaching 100 pages(Which breaks the thread?), filled with unhappy people. Dont let us down
Tick Tock.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:21:00 -
[2775]
Edited by: Baun on 12/02/2007 09:19:03 Just to remind people of one little "tid bit."
While the dev cheating is very high profile and very shokcing, there has been rampant cheating that CCP has known about for years and done nothing about, long before this ever surfaced or was an issue.
I am talking of course about ISD members cheating by misuing their forum mod access, event team access and limited informational access to their own benefit. Much of the event issues you are linking to the devs actually come from ISD people who are still in place. They are only removed when they are caught by the community, they are not policed by CCP.
It might not surprise you to learn that a very very great number of these people are in EVOL and other BoB corporations (EVOL especially though, old school FA has an absolute ton of ISD representation). The problem is by no means limited to EVOL or BoB, it is, rather, a pervasive community wide issue that has gone almost completely unchecked since the dawn of the game.
CCP doesn't care enough to do anything about it and in the midst of this scandal people are actually forgetting about a far more pervasive and potentially more damaging issue. Don't forget about it, be vigilant.
Before people start shouting "proof or stfu." All you need to do is know a single former ISD person and all will be revealed to you. Have some patience for the rest.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Zomzom
Gallente Shimago Domingas Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:22:00 -
[2776]
Its an interesting situation, the community would never have found out without the activities of certain, now infamous members. However, the matter had been dealt with immediately on discovery, we were just never informed. It does seem strange that the senior directors were not consulted in the punishment process but it is entirely right that the individual should not now be punished twice.
As for all this back biting nonsense of alliances and bollotics, that people don't like this aspect of the game or that they don't like BoB, should not be their main emotional driver in life, this is afterall a game.
This individual has made a huge error and committed a breach of trust, however the matter has been dealt with, the individual was lucky I would say, but we would be far less likely to have another incident like this in Eve as there will now be policing of such possiblities on an almost over zealous level.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:22:00 -
[2777]
Originally by: Pann The CEO of CCP is named Ivar. You kids gossip more than a bunch of old ladies in a sewing circle.
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:22:00 -
[2778]
Originally by: Templer Relleg Time is ticking Kieron. You still havent answered any of our important questions, only the ones that doesnt matter. Its like digging your own grave.
I cant see why it should be so hard to answer our questions. If you arent covering up for something, you should be able to answer whatever we would ask.
We are close to 3000 posts now, and reaching 100 pages(Which breaks the thread?), filled with unhappy people. Dont let us down
Tick Tock.
A bit harsh, but yeah, I'd expect SOME sort of statement by now... --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Kalroth
The Initiative
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:24:00 -
[2779]
To all the kids asking why Molle hasn't been banned ingame - forum misconduct doesn't yield ingame bans but forum warnings and/or bans (when you reach the maximum allowed warnings).
Stop beating a dead horse, why should he be punished MORE than everyone else
<sig> 0x4B656972657473752C20746865 0x0D0A 0x57616E7420746F206A6F696E20436F7265546563683F 0x4D657373616765204B616C726F7468206E6F7721 </sig> |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:29:00 -
[2780]
Originally by: Kalroth To all the kids asking why Molle hasn't been banned ingame - forum misconduct doesn't yield ingame bans but forum warnings and/or bans (when you reach the maximum allowed warnings).
Stop beating a dead horse, why should he be punished MORE than everyone else
Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
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Fortures Fossor
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:31:00 -
[2781]
At the end of the day my choice to play this game further will be based on one thing. How just I feel that CCP's actions are at the end of this dissusion.
Quoting Hellmars Blog:
In Closing
As we look to the future, we will endeavor to improve our handling of these matters by acting in a manner that is both swift and consistent with company policy. It is regrettable that such instances reveal flaws in our governance, but by the same token, addressing them decisively is what makes our company stronger. We now have resources dedicated to performing audits of dev activity on Tranquility with much more frequency than before. This, combined with additional layers of security, and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts, represents the full extent that we will go to deter dev misconduct.
The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here. Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency. And while that does expose us to some degree of risk, the rewards are incalculably higher. EVE has grown stronger every year since its inception; these bumps in the road are an inevitable part of the journey we must endure as a growing company; and we would not be here today if we opted to isolate ourselves from the player experience of EVE Online.
It is thus that we look forward to putting this matter firmly behind us, and move forward with our continued mission to improve and expand a world that we hold close to our hearts.
Sincerely,
Hilmar Veigar Petursson, CEO CCP
If it has been your company policy to terminate guilty abusers of power and cheating developers then asking for T20 to be fired is not uncalled for. We are mearly asking you to fullfill your COMMITMENT to the Eve community. You gave your word and asked us the paying customer to trust you at your word. This has been violated and covered up to protect your company at a cruetial time with your up coming deal with White Wolf. The more I read this forum the sicker I get with the accusations of how much BoB knew or was activly involved ect. Don't care how other players acted as they should be delt with seperatly. The absolute betrayal of trust and complete failure to act in an honorable way in order to cover your collective ass is disgacefull.
To Kieron: I ask that your company keeps it's promise and sacks T20. Your failure and lack of leadership disgusts me. You must always lead by example. You have lost my trust and that of many other players in this game. You must work VERY hard to gain that trust back. This game and your house payments operate on our trust in you to deliver a fair and fun game to play. Right now it is not fair and that kills the fun.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:31:00 -
[2782]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Kalroth To all the kids asking why Molle hasn't been banned ingame - forum misconduct doesn't yield ingame bans but forum warnings and/or bans (when you reach the maximum allowed warnings).
Stop beating a dead horse, why should he be punished MORE than everyone else
Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course.
Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:
* a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:33:00 -
[2783]
Originally by: Toria Nynys
Quote:
Bob should be banned from alliance tourneys.
I admit there's some shady things with the organizer of the tourneys being IN the winning alliance, but that's once again an abuse of a single person. Not the fault of most of the people in the alliance.
its not a act of a single person when they have multiple Devs in the alliance and i doubt that only one of all of them have been doing something underhanded.
it would be insane and totally against human nature to believe that only one of them did something that they were not allowed to do.
how about we list some stuff. lets start with passive targeters! why on earth would the whole of bob just one day start fitting passive targeters? i mean it is not the kind of module that one would use for POS assaults right. yet they all fitted it and went out and used it to target people inside the POS shields who couldnt target back and got shot inside the POS shield. now how did they know that? only thing i can come up with is that someone inside CCP who knew about the bug told them because it is not the kind of module even considered with a long stretch to test with on SISI.
what about leaking of information about future events? well we know that the event where LV got their Mothership was a nice giveaway for 1 freighterload instead of 5 freighterloads and was sorted within a couple of hours of announcement. weird, just counting the stuff they requested and finding it should have taken atleast that amount of time not even mentioning the hauling ontop of that. yeah thats right everyone else was aiming for the advertised 5 freighterloads when LV already had the 1 freighterload already in the right station and got the MoM. nice way of cheating the paying customers by blatant favouritism there dont you think.
and lets discuss bans abit and reasons for them. kug apparently got all his 5 accounts permabanned for showing ppl T20's dirty ass in public. heres the thing though, T20 had a website at CCP where his firstname was displayed in public with the email adress that kug posted on his forums. doesnt that mean that the info he posted was already available to the public?, if so why ban? btw since kug havent been judged by any court of law for breaking any law kug cannot be banned for that as by the eula states something like "you are not allowed to break any laws yadda-yadda", doesnt that mean that CCP needs to know by
and now the bob rulebook applied molle/shrike posts RL name and workplace of kug on this forums and encouraged people to start calling him in RL. that sounds to me like a even worse ruleviolation then kug, especially since it happened on these forums. so to be even and fair in their enforcing of rules they should ban all accounts associated with the character Sirmolle/Shrike. but we all know that is not going to happen as he is in bob and there are no devs in bob and CCP have no vested interest in bob right? or do they?, remember that there was 5 ppl that had connected to the RKK forums from a CCP hf ipadress, 5 not 1 and that is RKK alone, then we have vegeta in TAOSP and more in the other corps also. why do i say "more in the other corps also"?, because with CCP's blatant coverup tactics and onesided enforcing of rules i cant see any other answer then that CCP Devs have still several people in those corps and/or ingame assets they want to protect.
this thing is far from over CCP, you havent even scraped on the top of the iceberg yet.
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
Aqua II
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:36:00 -
[2784]
Originally by: Mortania
I want CCP to come forth and be totally open. [..] It's the coverup that I can't seem to get over.
Exactly. CCP have painted themselves in the corner by letting this fester for so long. I seriously hope CCP consider their actions very carefully, and that Oveur has used the weekend to reconsider his "let's try to blame it all on BoB, and bury CCP's involvement" stance on this.
After more than 3 years it's about time for CCP to start acting like professionals. You will need to make real changes to how the company is run (changes which are long overdue, to be honest). Right now, just banning one person or the other and removing some BPO's from game is not going to cut it.
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:37:00 -
[2785]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Templer Relleg Time is ticking Kieron. You still havent answered any of our important questions, only the ones that doesnt matter. Its like digging your own grave.
I cant see why it should be so hard to answer our questions. If you arent covering up for something, you should be able to answer whatever we would ask.
We are close to 3000 posts now, and reaching 100 pages(Which breaks the thread?), filled with unhappy people. Dont let us down
Tick Tock.
A bit harsh, but yeah, I'd expect SOME sort of statement by now...
That was somewhat intended. Ofc. i dont wanna be too harsh. But i feel like CCP dont care about us right now. And thats just sad.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:38:00 -
[2786]
An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player: * a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Unless of course your character name is Sir Molle in which case its ok apparently
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:40:00 -
[2787]
Originally by: Xendie
and lets discuss bans abit and reasons for them. kug apparently got all his 5 accounts permabanned for showing ppl T20's dirty ass in public. heres the thing though, T20 had a website at CCP where his firstname was displayed in public with the email adress that kug posted on his forums. doesnt that mean that the info he posted was already available to the public?, if so why ban? btw since kug havent been judged by any court of law for breaking any law kug cannot be banned for that as by the eula states something like "you are not allowed to break any laws yadda-yadda", doesnt that mean that CCP needs to know by
The guys hacks forums... Even though he is to be recommended for publishing this, he first tried to blackmail both BoD and CCP. Perma ban is too good for him afaic. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:41:00 -
[2788]
Originally by: merc999 Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 09:34:36 An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player: * a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Unless of course your character name is Sir Molle in which case its ok apparently
unless your character is shrike and is our favourite Titan pilot. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:42:00 -
[2789]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Xendie
and lets discuss bans abit and reasons for them. kug apparently got all his 5 accounts permabanned for showing ppl T20's dirty ass in public. heres the thing though, T20 had a website at CCP where his firstname was displayed in public with the email adress that kug posted on his forums. doesnt that mean that the info he posted was already available to the public?, if so why ban? btw since kug havent been judged by any court of law for breaking any law kug cannot be banned for that as by the eula states something like "you are not allowed to break any laws yadda-yadda", doesnt that mean that CCP needs to know by
The guys hacks forums... Even though he is to be recommended for publishing this, he first tried to blackmail both BoD and CCP. Perma ban is too good for him afaic.
Just the fact that he posted personal information on the forums alone is enough. This is so serious its not funny guys. If someone ever does this you can never allow a person to post on your site again... ever. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:43:00 -
[2790]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: MrDisposable Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course.
Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:
* a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player:
That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept..
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:45:00 -
[2791]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player:
That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept..
Yep, sadly the entire EULA is written like that. However, at the very least it shows that CCP is applying the EULA unevenly in this circumstance.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:45:00 -
[2792]
You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited. EULA link
Unless of course you are the BoB leadership, then you can create a "Cynonet" using shared accounts in the knowledge that CCP will continue to ignore this EULA breach
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Templer Relleg
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:46:00 -
[2793]
Originally by: merc999 Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 09:34:36 An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player: * a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Unless of course your character name is Sir Molle in which case its ok apparently
Im afraid thats the case. I dont honestly see them banning Sir Molle. It would be a major thing for eve, to lose a titan. Some might(Like me) argue that it would be for that better good. But then again, bob would begin whinning with their alts But they would get into more trouble for not following their EULA.
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MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:47:00 -
[2794]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: MrDisposable Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course.
Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:
* a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player:
That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept..
Since you missed the post where I tried to explain it for the dense I will repeat.
Giving out real life information about someone could possibly result in someones death. This is the reason why its an insta-ban. There are why too many whack-jobs on the internet to have that type of information given out. Especially on a website full of them. Wasn't there a murder over some MMO property before? ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Mauxir
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 09:47:00 -
[2795]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: MrDisposable Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course.
Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:
* a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player:
That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept..
Legal semantics out of the way it still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth if they use double standards. And it reeks of favoritism to the same alliance that benefited the most from cheating. One would think that CCP would have learned from their mistakes but I guess not.
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Flashheart
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:47:00 -
[2796]
Originally by: merc999 Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 09:34:36 An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player: * a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Unless of course your character name is Sir Molle in which case its ok apparently
Sad, but true.
One rule for us, one rule for the select few.
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:49:00 -
[2797]
Originally by: merc999 You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited. EULA link
Unless of course you are the BoB leadership, then you can create a "Cynonet" using shared accounts in the knowledge that CCP will continue to ignore this EULA breach
I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two.
I honestly don't care about the account sharing, and I haven't heard of widespread account sharing bans, though I haven't looked into it.
This is such a trivial and insignificant piece of the pie, I don't see why people are harping on it. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Sergio Ling
Standard Operations Building Services
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:50:00 -
[2798]
Edited by: Sergio Ling on 12/02/2007 09:47:40
Originally by: merc999 You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited. EULA link
Unless of course you are the BoB leadership, then you can create a "Cynonet" using shared accounts in the knowledge that CCP will continue to ignore this EULA breach
I'm not in a big alliance, But: I know of at least a dozen sets of players who use a similar system. It's needed. If we ban the cynonet, you have to then ban a huge chunk of 0.0 players
EDIT - this has already been said a dozen times in this thread. this isnt for reading and sicussing, it's for 'OMGOUTRAGE' _ Your sig is pwn - Eris
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:51:00 -
[2799]
Originally by: Mortania I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two.
BoB is all married to each other?
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 09:51:00 -
[2800]
Seriously Dre'd. Dev junk aside. If CCP doesn't enforce this I will run away from this game I love. No video-game is worth the type of risks allowing this would do.
I am not joking or playing around and I can't believe this didn't click in my head earlier. I don't care if it was God himself playing the game. Giving out personal information is a serious no-no. No I am not overstating this fact. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:52:00 -
[2801]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two.
BoB is all married to each other?
You should get a job in politics, your spin is marvelous.
CCP can't prevent my wife from logging into my account. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Rutefly
Amarr Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:54:00 -
[2802]
Costumer service will degrade for various reasons. Happens in all online games. So far CCP has managed better than most. But inevitable, as corporate idiots try to make a buck/career on every aspect of their organization no matter the cost and support grows in size, it will drop some. Evil EVIL! DOOM!
Everyone needs to cheer up, and CCP needs to show that they enforce investigation on their own. That'll be end of story and everyone will be smiling again. Trust and love and smiling... And no more laser nerfs. Fantastic.
Oh yes, i got the impression someone got banned for pointing out this incident. *Ahem* Show of good faith. Unban maybe ? Even if nasty words were used.
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Mauxir
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:54:00 -
[2803]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two.
BoB is all married to each other?
You should get a job in politics, your spin is marvelous.
CCP can't prevent my wife from logging into my account.
Thats like saying: "The police cant stop me killing people with my AK-47 so its ok to do it". Its not about prevention its about reacting after the deed has been done. Something that CCP should take a course or two in.
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MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:55:00 -
[2804]
Originally by: Rutefly Costumer service will degrade for various reasons. Happens in all online games. So far CCP has managed better than most. But inevitable, as corporate idiots try to make a buck/career on every aspect of their organization no matter the cost and support grows in size, it will drop some. Evil EVIL! DOOM!
Everyone needs to cheer up, and CCP needs to show that they enforce investigation on their own. That'll be end of story and everyone will be smiling again. Trust and love and smiling... And no more laser nerfs. Fantastic.
Oh yes, i got the impression someone got banned for pointing out this incident. *Ahem* Show of good faith. Unban maybe ? Even if nasty words were used.
No, if he is unbanned then something seriously wrong is going on. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:56:00 -
[2805]
Originally by: Mortania You should get a job in politics, your spin is marvelous.
CCP can't prevent my wife from logging into my account.
Sure they can, because you don't own your account.
Originally by: EULA Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
Therefore, the fact that you and your wife are co-owners of everything in your possession is irrelevant in this case since you don't have ownership rights of the account to begin with.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:56:00 -
[2806]
wether or not other alliances share cyno accounts or not doesnt make the one that can be proved right, It is a breach of the EULA.
If you have proof of other alliances using shared accounts then petition it.
this breach has been petitioned and ignored, similarly Sir Molles breach of the rules by revealing personal information on these forums, no matter how briefly before it was removed, has also be ignored.
The reason given by CCP for Kugutsumens accounts being banned was the revealing of personal information,
So the question is very simple and easy to understand.
Why is the whistleblower banned, and a leader of an alliance that gained most by T20's activities and who committed the exact same crime not banned.
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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:56:00 -
[2807]
I'm sorry... but Kugu never posted the real-life info on EVE-o threads. It was re-posted from a locked section on a private website. Just as a CCP dev posted personal info on a locked section of another website.
Then again... Sir Mulle or whoevers alt/main/BoB, posted Kugus personal info on EVE-o. Called his employer and tried to have him fired.
EVE Online - Pirates |
Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:57:00 -
[2808]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Xendie
and lets discuss bans abit and reasons for them. kug apparently got all his 5 accounts permabanned for showing ppl T20's dirty ass in public. heres the thing though, T20 had a website at CCP where his firstname was displayed in public with the email adress that kug posted on his forums. doesnt that mean that the info he posted was already available to the public?, if so why ban? btw since kug havent been judged by any court of law for breaking any law kug cannot be banned for that as by the eula states something like "you are not allowed to break any laws yadda-yadda", doesnt that mean that CCP needs to know by
The guys hacks forums... Even though he is to be recommended for publishing this, he first tried to blackmail both BoD and CCP. Perma ban is too good for him afaic.
if you use the same standards of moderation wich should be the rule then sirmolle/shrike should be permabanned on all his accounts.
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
SugarDaddy
Comando Vermelho Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:01:00 -
[2809]
Hi mom ...im on the 100th page !!!!
Forget about banning ppl...all these guys have the isk to buy new chars and accs...
What to do?? I have no idea...but if you know a lawyer in Iceland let me have his e-mail plz.
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Flashheart
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:01:00 -
[2810]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: merc999 You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited. EULA link
Unless of course you are the BoB leadership, then you can create a "Cynonet" using shared accounts in the knowledge that CCP will continue to ignore this EULA breach
I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two.
I honestly don't care about the account sharing, and I haven't heard of widespread account sharing bans, though I haven't looked into it.
This is such a trivial and insignificant piece of the pie, I don't see why people are harping on it.
Well, I think its mainly to do with the perception of cheating again. There is a significant advantage for a large group of people to share accounts, it allows for rapid deployment of resources regardless of whether the actual players are available and online. Same can be said of complex running teams, where any 3-4 players from a group can log on the characters whenever they are needed.
On the one hand, we have one group of players that abide by the laws of the game and don't do it being at a disadvantage to a group of players that cheat (as in, not play by the rules of the game).
That is what people find offensive.
Imagine playing a game of chess, your first move is to jump your Queen over the pawns into the middle of the board, your opponent says 'what are you doing thats against the rules', you say 'yeah but its only a little cheat, doesnt hurt anyone does it ?'
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MrDisposable
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:04:00 -
[2811]
Originally by: SugarDaddy Hi mom ...im on the 100th page !!!!
Forget about banning ppl...all these guys have the isk to buy new chars and accs...
What to do?? I have no idea...but if you know a lawyer in Iceland let me have his e-mail plz.
You ban the IP address, Mac address anything that you can do to get that one person out of there.
I am not computer literate btw. ______________ BoB Alts
"This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!"
"Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve." |
Major Stormer
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:04:00 -
[2812]
Amusing thread to say the least.
I think this has been blown far out of what it needed to be. This has simply ment that all the BOB haters which cant fight them ingame, think they are "uber" and therefore the entire alliance is cheating, have come out of the woodword (or sent out legions of alts), and started spamming. Becuase if you win on the forums you win ingame right?
I dont like BOB. Fact ive spent a large portion of my time, ISK, and ships lately fighting them and their allies. But quite frankly the entire thing is insane. If you consider this thing to be so gamebreaking then please, the door is over there.
Fighting BOB, they are good. But so are we. The final result, and what I belive was the intent of all this in the end, is the commuanty outrage at BOB, and the now considerable numbers fighting them. Are you mad? More then enough corps and alliances are now fighting tooth and claw against BOB. Go and join them. Leave all this TOTAL CRAP about lawsuits and stuff behind, relax for 30 seconds, see past the red mist you have, and login and kill them.
BOB will die in the end, then a new alliance will come up. There will be a massive scandle with them at some point. Just like there was with Curse, Red, Stain, etc etc. You gonna quit over that?
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:06:00 -
[2813]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania You should get a job in politics, your spin is marvelous.
CCP can't prevent my wife from logging into my account.
Sure they can, because you don't own your account.
Originally by: EULA Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
Therefore, the fact that you and your wife are co-owners of everything in your possession is irrelevant in this case since you don't have ownership rights of the account to begin with.
Actually, I'm renting the right to access the account. Which is effectively the same thing. I don't own my car right now, either, the bank does. But, that doesn't grant my wife any less access to it.
--- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Frumentarii
Gallente Bellum Aeternus Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:11:00 -
[2814]
#3000!
My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!
--------------------------------------
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:12:00 -
[2815]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Mauxir
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: MrDisposable Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course.
Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:
* a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site.
Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player:
That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept..
Legal semantics out of the way it still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth if they use double standards. And it reeks of favoritism to the same alliance that benefited the most from cheating. One would think that CCP would have learned from their mistakes but I guess not.
*if* they used double standards.. We still dont have all the info yet.. My gut feeling is no.. Others im sure will disagree but time will eventually tell no doubt.. If CCP are going to release anything today it will most likely be about 6ish u.s. time as thats when the majority of the playerbase will be home and online.. Plus thats that much extra brainstroming time if they wait till then..
I also recall that Kieron doesn't work in Iceland. But that could be a total fabrication of my mind. --- Thoughts on "recent events"
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Skaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:13:00 -
[2816]
Moderation seems to have been cancelled in this thread so in the hope that CCP hasn't written this thread off already...
As far as I can see there seems to be a lack of info from CCP, wether they can't or won't release this info is another matter. Here is a list or rather a compilation of concerns wich have been brought up by a number of people numerous times in this thread.
The main questions asked in this thread seem to be:
Why did it take so long to remove the BPOs from the game?
Why wasn't the misconduct of t20 reported immediately in June 2006?
Will CCP take action against SirMolle for revealing personal information on the forums?
Will CCP look into the matter of BoB leadership having known about t20's identity and willfully gained from it?
Why was Kugutsumen banned? (Kieron has already answered this)
This is not an exhaustive list as 100 pages! are rather much to plow through. Please add if you feel something is missing, but remember be constructive. - -
PINK PINK PINK PINK |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:15:00 -
[2817]
Originally by: Mortania I also recall that Kieron doesn't work in Iceland. But that could be a total fabrication of my mind.
Nah.. pretty sure kieron is US based.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Rutefly
Amarr Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:21:00 -
[2818]
T%hatll teach me to read all posts b4 posting 8)
So this guy haxxed forums by means to investigate, to put it to his defense. Well not nice but could be excused to some extend. Blackmailing ? OMG! Someone investigate that part. Thats straight to the banzor .
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:32:00 -
[2819]
Originally by: Rutefly T%hatll teach me to read all posts b4 posting 8)
So this guy haxxed forums by means to investigate, to put it to his defense. Well not nice but could be excused to some extend. Blackmailing ? OMG! Someone investigate that part. Thats straight to the banzor .
Sigh. He allready has been permabanned... --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Crucifier
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:32:00 -
[2820]
THIUS IOS ANM OIUTRASGE!!11 ------
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PeveS
The Edge Foundation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:37:00 -
[2821]
Edited by: PeveS on 12/02/2007 10:33:40 Yes, this tread has been blown far out of what it needed to be.
But the damage is done and trust is violated, many times now. We have simply to agree that certain CCP empoyees can not be trusted. Also this is only the top of a whole iceberg of issues that CCP will never let out. Accept it.
For now you have a choice: - Accept it and move on - Dont accept it, there is no solution to prevent any of this in the future! Ever! If you cant accept that, then quit eve.
Those who can accept it will move on.
If i was a BoB member i would leave this alliance. BoB members/friends can always start a new corp with their fellow BoB friends and fight from the start! They are good so they will succeed.
The rest of Eve can make a statement to fight against BoD. Use game mechanics to get what you want. Its fun for all.
Then there is Kugustumen. The man who brought all this above the water. He didnt probably do it with legal methods. But others use also obscure techniques to get information. All alliances have spy networks, some use forum hacks, some use fake accounts etc.
He is now banned! The reason is well found by CCP but then they should also ban others. This will not get done. Neither will CCP tell all details, neither can CCP garantee this will not happen again in the future.
Thx Kugustumen to make the eve community clear that Eve is a game of CCP and they decide the rulez.
Accept it or quit. Time to move on...
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Rutefly
Amarr Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:46:00 -
[2822]
Originally by: PeveS Edited by: PeveS on 12/02/2007 10:33:40.. [stuff]... Accept it or quit. Time to move on...
Brilliant. Got it nailed there
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:47:00 -
[2823]
Originally by: Skaz
This is not an exhaustive list as 100 pages! are rather much to plow through. Please add if you feel something is missing, but remember be constructive.
Given that the historical track record of detection and punishment is clearly inept and ineffective, what tangible changes are CCP going to make that would actually genuinely mean that we could be confident it is highly unlikely to occur again?
Eve: Cheats prosper. |
Dragutinovic
Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 10:48:00 -
[2824]
So Kieron ,
Will this also mean the end of favorism towards BoB members when they get petitioned ?
As they often can go rampant in local/CAOD forums without gettin locked or a warning/ban .
Or the grieving of a person out of the game went also unpunished , infact unresponded .
I by no means plan to leave or any of that crazy shiat but i do hope it finally turns into a fair and neutral threatment since years .
Also be aware the current revealed " stunts " and person(s) can be easily replicated due out of game comms .....
You wont have any control there and if i would give my companies clients/cuncurrents such an advantage i would get fired . _____________
Im back !
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sexybabee
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:48:00 -
[2825]
i am beginning to think that sir molle has some hold over CCP, or is he a dev gm or something bigger.
he seems untouchable
Can kieron answer this question
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Gungankllr
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:56:00 -
[2826]
Is this the first thread in Eve to get over 100 pages?
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Major Stormer
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:00:00 -
[2827]
Originally by: Gungankllr Is this the first thread in Eve to get over 100 pages?
I think the Amarr thread, and a couple of others went over 100.
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Tweazer
Caldari Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:00:00 -
[2828]
Originally by: sexybabee i am beginning to think that sir molle has some hold over CCP, or is he a dev gm or something bigger.
he seems untouchable
Can kieron answer this question
Yes Sir Molle is God
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Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:01:00 -
[2829]
Originally by: Gungankllr Is this the first thread in Eve to get over 100 pages?
nope, the "fix amarr" thread got longer but this one shows promise in overtaking it.
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
Xendie
Away Humping Keyboard
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:02:00 -
[2830]
btw... the Devs ignored the "fix amarr" thread also
Originally by: Dianabolic I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I |
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Chardonay
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:08:00 -
[2831]
Originally by: Gungankllr Is this the first thread in Eve to get over 100 pages?
I think it re-affirms the importance of this issue by the community.
It may be 100 pages of tosh from both sides, but its important and emotional tosh for sure.
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:09:00 -
[2832]
Originally by: Mortania But, honestly, I don't care about BoB, or SirMolle very much; I want CCP to come forth and be totally open... It's the coverup that I can't seem to get over.
QFT. That and the variable application of the EULA, depending whether they feel like it or not on any given occasion.
If a rule is widely ignored, as with the Goon's client mods or shared cyno nets then it brings the rules into disrepute. That needs to stop, and the rules either changed or rigorously enforced. Or - as with local - the gameplay changed to remove the motive to break the EULA in the first place. Is it possible that remote-operated cyno POS could be a way forward there?
We need openness and consistency. I fear what we're getting is "we can't talk about that" and "the rules say so (except when we choose not to enforce them)". |
MrTriggerHappy
Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:10:00 -
[2833]
We're also looking at number of days here, its growing rapidly!!! --------------------------------
My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance |
Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:10:00 -
[2834]
Originally by: PeveS Edited by: PeveS on 12/02/2007 10:33:40 Yes, this tread has been blown far out of what it needed to be.
But the damage is done and trust is violated, many times now. We have simply to agree that certain CCP empoyees can not be trusted. Also this is only the top of a whole iceberg of issues that CCP will never let out. Accept it.
For now you have a choice: - Accept it and move on - Dont accept it, there is no solution to prevent any of this in the future! Ever! If you cant accept that, then quit eve.
Those who can accept it will move on.
If i was a BoB member i would leave this alliance. BoB members/friends can always start a new corp with their fellow BoB friends and fight from the start! They are good so they will succeed.
The rest of Eve can make a statement to fight against BoD. Use game mechanics to get what you want. Its fun for all.
Then there is Kugustumen. The man who brought all this above the water. He didnt probably do it with legal methods. But others use also obscure techniques to get information. All alliances have spy networks, some use forum hacks, some use fake accounts etc.
He is now banned! The reason is well found by CCP but then they should also ban others. This will not get done. Neither will CCP tell all details, neither can CCP garantee this will not happen again in the future.
Thx Kugustumen to make the eve community clear that Eve is a game of CCP and they decide the rulez.
Accept it or quit. Time to move on...
How can you conclude like this when this scandal obvisously isnt dealt with? And even worse it has escaleted due to a a certain being outing other gamers in RL _and_ lot of other questions is still unanswered.
It's amasing to witness how inmature some gamers prefer to act with such werious alligations still ongoing.
"I Will Drug You and Fluff You, through the permafrost"
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Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:11:00 -
[2835]
Originally by: Major Stormer
Originally by: Gungankllr Is this the first thread in Eve to get over 100 pages?
I think the Amarr thread, and a couple of others went over 100.
The Amarr thread definitely did, though it took rather longer to do so!
/me also suspects it showed that wherever their characters may be, Devs don't fly Amarr! |
pricecheck8
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:17:00 -
[2836]
ive a question. does that dev live in iceland? i ask cause i noticed something in the blog that says "iceland only has 300,000 people".
if he does live in iceland that tells me he wont be fired no matter what cause there is not a large enough work force base to get new employees from
as for devs in game. i say they should all make their own corp and only stay in that. no alliances, etc. you can still play/test whatever ya need. keep it limited to low sec space if they need to work on any aspects that involve other things i.e. building outposts, flying capital ships, etc.
course policing that is hard. they will have their official/monitored acct but whats to stopping them from saying playing via dialup,using someones elses phone/cell phone that isnt connected to them. they could pay via gtc-s. it would be hard to conect it to that other person but still believe they should make their own corp and stay there
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:17:00 -
[2837]
Originally by: Benco97 All you people who've turned on CCP so quickly... what do you want from the game? are you honestly saying that you're 100% pure, never done anything bad, never lied or anything like that? Wow.. I guess you're all angels then.
Not all no... but I've never done a dirty deal of any kind ever within the entire lifetime of my involvement with Eve. Period.
I've even gone so far as to report myself, via petition, whenever I've gained something, accomplished something, or benefited in a manner that I thought was either wrong, accidental zploit, or just too damned easy. I will not associate with anyone, any more than I absolutely must, that I know fails to maintain the minimum level of Eve Ethics.
Just because the majority of people out there can't seem to find the strength of character that enables decent people to keep their zippers in the up and tight position or just wants to live dirty through some semi-visceral experience does not give you the ability to say, "Everyone does it."
It is not hard to keep clean. It only appears that is is so easy, so very very easy, to get dirty.
"Perpetrators, and their lawyers, argue about the varying levels of wrong. The righteous know that there is only one level of right."
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Alumion
Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:19:00 -
[2838]
Edited by: Alumion on 12/02/2007 11:16:38 When exactly did Kugutsumen "blackmailed" anyone? As far as I know he posted it immediately on his blog which kind of defeats the point in blackmailing
If any proof exists that he indeed blackmailed BoB/CCP, where is it? Can you say propaganda?
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Ione Hunt
Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:20:00 -
[2839]
I hope those 3000 posts have some more effect and this post wasn't only created by CCP so we could let of steam in a forum section which often gets overlooked, before it disappears without having had any real impact _______________
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:22:00 -
[2840]
Originally by: Rugin Astra There is a quote from a televison mini-series, "Never put yourself in a position where you can take from these men." ... I do believe CCP should take to heart an ammended version of it: Never put yourself in a position where you can appear to take from a segment of the community for the benefit of your own character or friends.
You do know which mini-series that original quote comes from, don't you?
It's "Band of Brothers."
The irony, it burns us.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Imperial Warehousing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:28:00 -
[2841]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 12/02/2007 11:26:22
Originally by: MrDisposable Since you missed the post where I tried to explain it for the dense I will repeat.
Giving out real life information about someone could possibly result in someones death. This is the reason why its an insta-ban. There are why too many whack-jobs on the internet to have that type of information given out. Especially on a website full of them. Wasn't there a murder over some MMO property before?
Well actually yes I did miss that post and your right to a certain point.. There is the posibility that some nut case could track one of them down but the odds of that are statistically nil.. Afaik there was some criminal statistics site the listed being struck by lightning in your house as more likely that being killed by a stalker.. So somewhere someone in CCP made a descision that the risk was worth the non-ban.. So this leaves motive.. CCP being already very profitable at year two would not willingly put the cash cow eve is to them in jepordy by having an inhouse organized stealth dev led alliance ..aka BoB.. discovered and proven in the mass media..
It just doesnt add up..
So what could all this be then? We have already gone round and round on the 'devs are teh cheaters and bob haxs' issue and noone can get any leverage one way or another with only conjecture and limited info to go on.. So one might ask how much more did K have on CCP that might or might not be game related and might be totaly innocent on CCPs part but with the right spin could be made very damaging if released.. He did try to blackmail them first instead of going right to the forums and mass media.. So any lawsiut on his part is going to be dubious at best.. As far as Sir Molle was concerend he might have did a major nono by posting K's info most likely in the heat of the moment but dammit its not like the guy is actively anti-eve.. Like K is.. So with the *may* provisio in the EULA I can see CCP using that to choose not to ban him and still be on stable legal grounds.. But as always this is all just speculation like the rest of the posts in here..
Next Theory!
Dred'Pirate Jesus.. Not a Dev or BoB alt ..or am I? |
Kenneys
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:28:00 -
[2842]
All that aside, I was thinking about the blueprint's worth.
Even if each of them were worth a measly say.. 2 bil each (I know they're worth more).. that would sum up to 12 bil.
So.. one of your employees.. gets caught "counterfeiting" or "making" 1200 US dollars (roughly)... and he's forgiven. That's generosity beyond most companies...
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Johnny Gurkha
Caldari Corporate Fornication
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:28:00 -
[2843]
Dear CCP,
Give me 6 months of free play time and I'll STFU and look the other way
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TZeer
BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:28:00 -
[2844]
From another place I posted...
What I find funny here is that BOB pets/fanbois and stuff keep grinding on thoose few BPO like that was all that happend....
There are proof of major inside use of account sharing in BOB, and with alot of devs in the alliance you should atleast expect them to uphold the EULA.
Molle post RL info on forums, nothing happens. Kugustsumen do the same, gets banned for it.
Quote: We do not have any proof showing the members of Reikoku (other than t20) had any knowledge that these BPs were illegally gained. We cannot punish players for innocently using items they thought were legal.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
And only yesterday a guy came on the forums and told CCP set him back to -2.5 bil because he had been selling stuff to a farmer network, stuff like POS equipment, fuel and so on. UNKNOWINGLY!!!
CCP knew about this 6 months ago... nothing, NOTHING happend until this was spammed on the forums. First then did CCP bother to take away the BPO`s.
Only stuff that have been done somthing with, is the stuff that we know and the stuff that we as a community posts about.
Multiple of the BOB leadership knew about the CCP people. Yes I say people cause there are more CCP peeps there. i have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is that they know about accountsharing and dont bother upholding their own EULA.
What I see here is pure damagecontrol. In all cases like this there`s always more.
What else happening in BOB we might never know. But I know for sure that what we have been told up until now is far from everything...
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Benco97
Gallente Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:32:00 -
[2845]
It really is quite simple, forget it now or leave because there is no way they can 100% stop it from happening again. I will be staying, EVE has given me YEARS of enjoyment and I am not quick to change my colours.
"MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum |
Imuran
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:36:00 -
[2846]
From Hellmar blog
Quote: A pivotal case was uncovered last summer during a routine investigation of developer accounts. Unfortunately CCP did not act with the same decisive consistency we have used on previous occasions. Those left at the helm chose to react cautiously, as sometimes is appropriate under these circumstances, leading to more leniency and understanding than we are used to in these matters. Upon review I personally would have chosen to act differently, but what's done is done.
As I understand this the original misdeed was discovered in June 2006 and the middle/lower management team took little action and failed to report it to the senior management team on their return.
I can understand the middle management team not taking the action but failing to report it up the chain is also a distinct failure. That would be the first thing on my list to talk to my boss when he returned. Dont you have a human resources department that handle staffing issues? Why were they not told and the information esculated up the chain?
At this point I would be investigating my junior managers to see if they have something to hide as well.
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OneSock
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:37:00 -
[2847]
Quote: # Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics.
OK this is the one that bugs me. Surely it is a Dev's job to know how the game works inside and out. So to say this is not true is simple lies IMO.
For most of us playing the game Eve is a pastime outside of our normal work. For a Dev they work on the game and play the game every day. Surely they have an advantage over us.
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jojie
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:44:00 -
[2848]
personaly from the caliber of this corruption i want to see all developers removed from the game or give the players the power to create there own bpo's and unlimited isk to play with. hell why not able to edit thier own skills to how ever they want. lets just ruin the game right now. this needs to be fixed asap. i seriously think all developers shouldn't be allowed to play. power corrupts. if this problem isn't fixed this game will die. your already loosing players over this how much before you sit up and take notice. choice is yours ccp.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:51:00 -
[2849]
Devs, devs, devs, devs, devs. It's all about the devs...
Don't forget to include the GMs in all this. Their powers are less godly, but they're still open to abuse.
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Katia Tae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:55:00 -
[2850]
Edited by: Katia Tae on 12/02/2007 11:52:17 There is so much noise in here it is hard to hear . . .
The single root cause to all of this: a Dev was allowed to play in a player corp/alliance at a high level. Period. If devs were not allowed to play within player corps and alliances, then none of this would have happened. Friends would not have been made, favortism would not have evolved to where it was at.
I believe devs should be allowed to be in game, but not in a manner that they have in the past. It is clear there is a conflict of interest.
Why do you think T20 was comfortable in the role he had in the player corp/alliance? Becuase it is the environment that was fostered within CCP. Come on folks, the dev's are co-workers, friends even, who work next to each other. You can not tell me that this was a single dev issue.
T20 is the scapegoat, nothing more. He was caught. He was only doing and was comfortable with what he was doing because "everyone" else was. He was simply caught.
That is the root cause and it MUST be addressed. It is clear CCP can not fire the whole staff. Why do you think they made the statement that dev's will continue to play the game as they see fit? Because if they pull all the devs from the game now, I'm sure several major corps/alliances would feel the impact at the highest levels.
It's your game CCP, clearly it is not ours. We are just pawns to the gods.
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Joy Tung
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:57:00 -
[2851]
I attend an ethical class at collage and I would like permission from CCP to highlight this to my tutor I'm also using this as a project entitled;
Theft, Criminality, Corruption & CCP
I also would love to been in every Monday morning meeting held by your competitors what will they do, say or react?
I can imagine a few coffees being spat out at MMO companies around the world, as they draft up meetings to all the GM's, CM's and Dev about the impact to the community these allegations would have if it happened to them. I also Imagine they will draft up proper measures on how to reaction and combat such actions not the half arsed way CCP has dealt or not dealt with it.
I hate that CCP is the guinea pig for these big hitting allegations (or is it lamb to the slaughter?).
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Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:00:00 -
[2852]
Originally by: Katia Tae Edited by: Katia Tae on 12/02/2007 11:52:17 There is so much noise in here it is hard to hear . . .
The single root cause to all of this: a Dev was allowed to play in a player corp/alliance at a high level. Period. If devs were not allowed to play within player corps and alliances, then none of this would have happened. Friends would not have been made, favortism would not have evolved to where it was at.
I believe devs should be allowed to be in game, but not in a manner that they have in the past. It is clear there is a conflict of interest.
Why do you think T20 was comfortable in the role he had in the player corp/alliance? Becuase it is the environment that was fostered within CCP. Come on folks, the dev's are co-workers, friends even, who work next to each other. You can not tell me that this was a single dev issue.
T20 is the scapegoat, nothing more. He was caught. He was only doing and was comfortable with what he was doing because "everyone" else was. He was simply caught.
That is the root cause and it MUST be addressed. It is clear CCP can not fire the whole staff. Why do you think they made the statement that dev's will continue to play the game as they see fit? Because if they pull all the devs from the game now, I'm sure several major corps/alliances would feel the impact at the highest levels.
It's your game CCP, clearly it is not ours. We are just pawns to the gods.
If the Dev's and CCP will continue to do what they see fit, continue to stay in players corps, being Director's, be fleetcommanders and so forth then Eve-Online is a fraud.
Now I want see that statement from Kieron himself who has handled this matter as an amateur so far.
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Maze La'Zie
Caldari Technology La'Zie
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:01:00 -
[2853]
Ok - I'm three days late - I've been away all weekend.
Thank you t20 for your apology. I hope you keep your job, having learnt from your mistakes.
I look forward to the new sa***uards and procedures that will arise from these event.
The whole thing just makes me sad - I love this game and CCP have generally shown great dedication and support for the playerbase.
To those players still calling for blood - please try and help the healing process rather than making the situation worse.
BOB/RKK - you could help by donating ISK, say 15b, to a good cause - Sisters of Eve or something.
Let's get through this.
___________________ Chief Scientific Officer Technology La'Zie Author of The End |
Serpensis
Gallente UK Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:01:00 -
[2854]
It makes me wonder what never makes it into the light of day. Who is to say this hasnt been done before, and by others? A sad day for EVE, and the community.
Who watches the watchers? -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty." |
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:05:00 -
[2855]
And so the seemingly unstopable juggernaut continues.......
100 pages plus and still alot of unanswered questions, alot and very few answered, I can wait
P.S.
Can someone answer me this though, I see a few people posting 'BOD' im guessing it is a play on words of sorts for BOB I.E. BOD = Band Of Dev's ? or is it a legitimate allaince with a differnt name or something ?
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:07:00 -
[2856]
Originally by: Samuel Freedom And so the seemingly unstopable juggernaut continues.......
100 pages plus and still alot of unanswered questions, alot and very few answered, I can wait
I bet they use this thread to let people blow off steam. Once this slows down the thread will be locked and later on deleted. Bussiness as usual will ensue... --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:15:00 -
[2857]
Edited by: Samuel Freedom on 12/02/2007 12:11:51
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Samuel Freedom And so the seemingly unstopable juggernaut continues.......
100 pages plus and still alot of unanswered questions, alot and very few answered, I can wait
I bet they use this thread to let people blow off steam. Once this slows down the thread will be locked and later on deleted. Bussiness as usual will ensue...
yea your possibly right but this will be thrown up whenever there is a slight deviance of one thing or another and it does have the potential not to destroy but ruin the game.
Really though on CCP behalf it is looking more and more like Monty Python sketch and we as a community are probably not taking and dealing with this very well but it does hurt when people lie about lieing and omit the truth.
P.s what about the question in the second part of my post!!
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Sir BuildALot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:21:00 -
[2858]
Originally by: TZeer
Molle post RL info on forums, nothing happens. Kugustsumen do the same, gets banned for it.
The Mittani posted RL information on the forums he is still in game to and he did it on numerous occasions and not just the one Molle did!
1st
2nd (post 381)
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RadarJack
Amarr Solar Storm X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:23:00 -
[2859]
Sound plausable.
But I know of 2 publications that are gathering information both in and out of game to run editorial pieces on corruption effects in MMO's for consumption by the general PC game playing public.
I can't see CCP coming off smelling of roses in those...
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:25:00 -
[2860]
Edited by: Nils Bohr on 12/02/2007 12:22:58
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Let me quote something:
[...]I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing. [...]
That means T20 worked alone.
Wow, that's a great quote. Here's another one for you:
Originally by: t20 Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level. We don't know more than you do, We don't have GM modules fitted, We petition our losses just the same way you do ...
That means t20 is a bald-faced liar ... unless, of course, you do know how to spawn fraudulent T2 BPOs for yourself and your buddies.
And, tbqh, we're not playing on the same level. Cheaters like t20 make that impossible.
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Logan Feynman
Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:32:00 -
[2861]
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 12/02/2007 12:29:39 Kugutsumen on BoB
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:32:00 -
[2862]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 12/02/2007 12:30:05
Originally by: RadarJack Sound plausable.
But I know of 2 publications that are gathering information both in and out of game to run editorial pieces on corruption effects in MMO's for consumption by the general PC game playing public.
I can't see CCP coming off smelling of roses in those...
i assume one of them is "pcgamer uk" alot of there staff play eve and doubt they are very happy about this whole afair.
lets hope ccp staff are willing to give them interviews, if they decline i can imagine there article beeing extremly bad for ccp's reputation.
i hate everything that has happened but i would hate to see the best mmo there currently is see a stong decline in potential subscribers.
lets not forget ccp relys on the ammount of people subscribing out weighing the people leaving.
according to that dev blog ages ago most people only play eve for around 7-9 months.
LETS FACE IT EVEN WITH ALL THE CRAP THAT HAS KICKED OFF RECENTLY EVE-ONLINE IS STILL THE BEST MMO AROUND RIGHT NOW!
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
OneSock
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:34:00 -
[2863]
Originally by: Katia Tae Edited by: Katia Tae on 12/02/2007 11:52:17
The single root cause to all of this: a Dev was allowed to play in a player corp/alliance at a high level. Period. If devs were not allowed to play within player corps and alliances, then none of this would have happened. Friends would not have been made, favortism would not have evolved to where it was at.
/signed.
I don't see why devs shouldn't join corps. but for them to hold a high rank in a corp or alliance is plain wrong.
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rafaman
New European Regiment THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:37:00 -
[2864]
This is the type of thing that can kill a game. And this has only one cause. The fact that employees of CCP can play the game.
I've read that its impossible to develop a game like this without first hand experince. I dont understand this statement. If its possible to build an entire OS based on user feedback, if its possible to build other great games bases on user input... why this must be different for CCP?
IN my opinion Its a conflict of interests to have CPP staff playing EVE. I can see many reasons for that.
First of all devs and others in the company knows the mechanics of the game better than enyone. And that includes any tricks (even if ok under EULA), locations of stuff, market data and other precious intel that the regular player does not have access. Or at least cant have access on a easy manner.
Second, a CCP member will be an important asset in any corp for the reasons stated above and in other posts. This means that a corp that has CCP members will have an unfair advantage over the others.
Finally to the players, like myself, that have to pay good money in order to play this game, its frustrating to know that there are players ingame that work for CCP and because of that they have first hand knowledge of the game and take advantage of this knowledge. You can say that dev logs show no misscondut. Who can asure us that there arent back-doors and un-logged tricks in game that where put in place by the devs that actually plays in the game?
My personal opinion is that CCP employees should not be able to play this game on the Tranquility server. There is a clear conflict of interests here and there are other ways to develop this amazing game without having first person experience. And that is by getting people to give you the feedback you need.
Get people testing Betas at earlier stages. Offer free subscriptions or time codes to the guys that contribute more for the Beta stages. Let the devs and other ccp staff to use the test server.
EVE is a great game because anyone can aspire to be amoung the best in it. But as things are now, even with a tight control of what the CCP devs do in game, its impossible to deny the fact that even if the devs do play without any tricks or back-doors abuse, they still have that extra intel access that no one else in game can have. And that makes them having an unfair advantage over everyone else.
My 2 cents.
PS: Its not this issue that is going to affect my game play or the way I see EVE. But as a paying custumer for almost 1 year I feel somewhat disapointed with all of this.
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Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:38:00 -
[2865]
Originally by: Logan Feynman Edited by: Logan Feynman on 12/02/2007 12:29:39 Kugutsumen on BoB
Lauging my A off. So this how an exotic dancer look when treatet badly in deep space over a long time.
Thanx for the laugh.
Cheers
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Leggy Bare
Caldari Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:39:00 -
[2866]
Apparently this issue is so insignificant CCP took the weekend off! I continue to be amazed by their(lack of)response to this situation. A problem that could have been dealt with quickly in June has snow-balled out of control. Does CCP not get this? This WILL cost them money and respect. The only question now is how MUCH.
*sigh* I AM an Alt. I am Freaky Bare's sexy sister. Contrary to Corpmembers opinion, I am NOT Freaky in drag. This forum hates Freaky Bare and does not like to allow him to post here. |
Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:39:00 -
[2867]
Originally by: comrade christopher Just imagine what kind of hell t20 is going through atm. I believe that from all ppl in CCP he would now be the last one to breach of community confidence.
Comrade, I'm not convinced t20 needs to be fired, but I'm afraid I don't share your optimism about his character. The guy who lectured us about "sportsmansship" even after he'd spawned some fraudulent T2 BPOs for himself and his buddies to use just doesn't strike me as being someone who deserves a vote of confidence.
It's to your credit that you feel otherwise. Just don't expect everyone to agree.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:45:00 -
[2868]
Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 12:42:36 I freelance for a very large publishing house, that has 100's of weekly and monthly titles ( mainly B2B but some specialist interst magazines.. Not **** you filthy minded beggars ) including those in the PC/Internet business. (Not my personal area).
This is being discussed within the area of the publishing house that deals with Internet issues (for those that dont know, most publishing houses now-a-days pool news stories for use throughout the titles they own) so I expect this will emerge in more than one title and in more than magazines just devoted to gaming.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:50:00 -
[2869]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Samuel Freedom And so the seemingly unstopable juggernaut continues.......
100 pages plus and still alot of unanswered questions, alot and very few answered, I can wait
I bet they use this thread to let people blow off steam. Once this slows down the thread will be locked and later on deleted. Bussiness as usual will ensue...
SOE tried that with SWG after the NGE, it worked horribly. No they aren't going to get the rage to burn out that way.
They are going to have to take steps, very strong measures to show that they are changing and that the players are really deciding the fate of the galaxy.
Noone believes that t20 acted alone, nor does anyone believe that it was just the 6 BPOs. Its the nature of things, a slip of the tongue here or there, and there'd be no real records of it, but at the same time it would still be out there.
I posted it way back.
1. t20 needs to be fired. I'm sorry, I have no personal beef and I do feel he is the scapegoat, but he clearly violated published corp rules and thus should pay the penalty. If he can't be fired due to Icelandic law he should be moved to another section of the game preferably one where he has little to no access to any sensitive data. I'm sure when he was hired he signed numerous NDAs most of which he's violated by now.
2. Again nothing personal but we need to show that we are being fair and balanced. SirMolle and all accounts that have ever logged from his same ISPN need to be banned. He posted RL personal information, he knew that was against the rules, and he knew the punishment outlined. They banned Kugs for it and they need to ban Molle.
3. In addition to removing the BPOs they need to remove their impact from BoB. BoB's really big and this shouldn't really hurt them. Fine the BoB alliance 15 billion isk, split evenly amongh its corps, or fined entirely to one corp if it was the recipient and holder of all 6.
4. Remove the tag DEV that is in game on BoB members. This just further inflames the subscribers and is a really dumb move that doesn't really help BoB's cause. (Unless actually all these people are DEVs).
5. CCP needs to release a statement signed by all members of the developer and GM staffs that they will cease and desist any outside assistance they may be rendering to any in game entities or personages. It should clearly state the penalty is termination of employment and permaban from the game. Perhaps even offer an amnesty period for Devs and GMs to come forward at this point and reveal improper actions they have done. Correct any such actions to the best of the ability of the software and developers.
I'm not even sure if those 5 steps would completely undo the damage, but I do feel confident they would show to the majority that CCP is serious.
You need to act quickly though, I saw the damage done to SOE and that could easily be done to CCP and EVE if this is allowed to continue. It should be a priority to resolve as many of these issues as is possible this week, possibly even today.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:54:00 -
[2870]
Originally by: Leggy Bare Apparently this issue is so insignificant CCP took the weekend off! I continue to be amazed by their(lack of)response to this situation. A problem that could have been dealt with quickly in June has snow-balled out of control. Does CCP not get this? This WILL cost them money and respect. The only question now is how MUCH.
SOE after the release of the NGE ( which was less than 1/3rd complete at time of release) took Thanksgiving Vacation and Christmas vacations rather than trying to fix their game. It is another reason that they received such negative coverage almost universally.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Katia Tae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:55:00 -
[2871]
Originally by: rafaman I've read that its impossible to develop a game like this without first hand experince. I dont understand this statement. If its possible to build an entire OS based on user feedback, if its possible to build other great games bases on user input... why this must be different for CCP?
Speaking as a developer myself who's been doing this for a couple of decades (yes, I'm that old), I've worked mostly on financial and document imaging systems. That's applications such as general ledger, accounts payable, payroll, human resources, etc.
I am not an accountant, nor do I know anything about employee hiring, firing, benefits, etc. I've never had to actually use/work on the systems that I have developed/maintained over the years.
I am able to meet the requirements that the clients establish as to what they would like their application to do. I don't have to understand their business, sure it helps if I do, but if I don't I usually work closely with a business analyst if there is a requirement that I do not completely understand.
Also, someone made the comment earlier about developers would never test in production. LOL, you bet we do. However, I like to call it validating in production and not testing.
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:55:00 -
[2872]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Perhaps even offer an amnesty period for Devs and GMs to come forward at this point and reveal improper actions they have done. Correct any such actions to the best of the ability of the software and developers.
This is actually a VERY good idea. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
Tarmiriel
ASSASSIN SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:14:00 -
[2873]
Mecinia Lua's post pretty much sums up what would seem to work best in this case.
This is all spiraling out of control......on gaming sites.......etc
Fast decisive action is the only thing that works.
We've not had that so far.
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Mikael Deco
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:15:00 -
[2874]
I say collective punishment should be applied. If one dev cheats then all devs gets their accounts deleted. Maybe then they'll start behaving in a professional manner instead of covering for each other. Also they should restart their accounts with no assests or isk (any isk transfered before deletion should be revoked if they try to store it through a 3rd party). Also t20 if he continues to be employed should only be allowed to fly amarr ships, that should be punishment enough. Collective punishment sounds harsh but CCP has already showed they are not mature enough to be objective and free of bias.
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Barry O'mass
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:16:00 -
[2875]
He cheated he lied they lied, they messed up, it happened. I think what we need to know is that proper procedures have been put in place so something of this magnitude will not and can not happen again. Also I would like to see even handed transparent handling of what is no longer a ticking bomb, but a crater if you want us to trust you, you must regain our trust.
It happen in RL people in positions of power and responsibility slip up and life goes on, peopleÆs perceptions of that organisation change for ever and no mater how much work is put in to regaining trust there will be a wif of corruption. I just want to know that this will not happen again from a leading member of the development team. People deserve a second chance but everything that is said will be taken with a pinch of salt by me and many otherÆs
Cheating is cheating regardless of how small or big, irrespective of financial gain to BoB, the cheating has tainted many peoples views of them and completely changed the geo political landscape of eve, those who hated BoB for what ever reason have a justified reason to hate them and will hate them even more, those who feared BoB, as an uber well organised killing machine will now laugh in their face and may actually attack them and not just roll over and let them take the space. And also those alliances who could not amass the PvpÆers to take down bob now have a common banner to rally under and put aside their petty differences and attack them.
The game has changed, as a community lets keep working to change it for the better.
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Auri Hella
The Graduates Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:18:00 -
[2876]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Stuff.
Hi, CCP people. Kindly read that post a few more times and take some action.
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Sophia Germain
Gallente Fluxion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:18:00 -
[2877]
Originally by: Helox
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Perhaps even offer an amnesty period for Devs and GMs to come forward at this point and reveal improper actions they have done. Correct any such actions to the best of the ability of the software and developers.
This is actually a VERY good idea.
I agree, very good idea indeed.
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Skaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:24:00 -
[2878]
Originally by: pricecheck8 ive a question. does that dev live in iceland? i ask cause i noticed something in the blog that says "iceland only has 300,000 people".
if he does live in iceland that tells me he wont be fired no matter what cause there is not a large enough work force base to get new employees from
Eh we do fine with 300,000 ppl here thank you. Quite enough to support a viable workforce after all it's still threehundredTHOUSAND people.
Although lately it's been hard to get employees because there is almost 0% unemployment here, we're importing labor these days
But his rep will be shattered none the less...everybody over here talks - -
PINK PINK PINK PINK |
Andris
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:33:00 -
[2879]
Mecinia Lua got the most sober and intelligent post ive seen in a while, i might add one thing; an official Bob statement would be interesting to read as well, afaik there have been no responce in 3 days, makes u wonder why..... They arent known to be slow when it comes to posting in "Bob-threads".
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:39:00 -
[2880]
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/02/2007 13:39:55 Ok, summing things up as I read them in this thread:
FACTS: A Dev spawned 5 crappy and 1 decent T2 BPO and gave them to his corp. Said dev was punished by CCP according to their internal procedures (quite fast actually). For some reason (of mistake) the spawned BPO's were not reclaimed until lately. A player posted personal information about a blackmailer on the forum. The blackmailer posted personal information about other players on the forum. The blackmailer got all his accounts banned.
RUMORS/ACCUSATIONS: (without proof) EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!
Concernal CCP's internal disciplinary processes... This is solely a matter for the CCP management team and is absolutely no concern of the EVE playerbase. As a practical matter of fact, it is pretty hard to find decent developers these days, so if they chose a disciplinary punishment less than dismissal, I find that a sensible thing to do from a business point of view.
Concerning the EULA. The EULA is there so the game company (in this case CCP), have the OPTION to act when they detect player actions which are not in the games best interest. The EULA is not a 'law' and is not the 'rules of the game'. They're merely a tool for the providing company to keep control over undesirable elements. Blackmailing other players or CCP itself is certainly an action that is not in the games best interest, so no wonder that player got his accounts banned (unfortuantely he was in a country with a shaky legal system)! Exposing said blackmailer I'd say definitely IS in the games best interest, so why should the person be punished for it, even if it is a technical EULA violation? Should all characters where a friend has once changed a skill for you be banned? Should all character who've ever used a swear word in either game chat or the forum be banned? These are technical EULA violations as well.......
Yes, I know!! In the eyes of all the whiners in this thread, I'm either: a) A BoB Alt b) A BoB lapdog c) A Dev d) All of the above...
..... or I could just be a normal EVE player thoroughly disgusted with the lynch-mob mentality of the majority of the posters in this thread!!!!
The correct procedure is, that if you have proof (yes, you know, PROOF) of any other player in the game cheating, then you inform CCP and they decide whether any cheating was done, and if so, decide whether any punishment is due. If you have no proof, then by default, that player is not cheating. You know, innocent until proven guilty. If (think) you have proof, then by default, that player is still not cheating until CCP says he is. You know, innocent until proven guilty.
The playerbase is NOT CAPABLE of deciding whether anyone has cheated, and is NOT CAPABLE of deciding whether something is 'proof' or not, simply because so large a part of it is blinded by irrational hate (or just being plain stupid)! The playerbase IS very good at throwing unfounded accusations around though (look above in this thread for examples..), but it has that little problem that the 'proof' is usually on the form 'I got pwn'd, so obviously the other guy was cheating'.
Punishing players for 'infractions' without proof would REALLY start this game spiraling downwards, so CCP are choosing the sensible path of only punishing serious infractions that are proven.
So could all of the 'we know what we know even if there is no proof' crowd please line up in front of the quit button. The game is better off without you!
General advice: Stop whining! |
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ChironV
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:39:00 -
[2881]
Originally by: Logan Feynman Edited by: Logan Feynman on 12/02/2007 12:29:39 Kugutsumen on BoB
Coffee, exit mouth at projectile speed. 3 stacked mods of extra damage to monitor and wall.
You officially win this thread... ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
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Alumion
Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:46:00 -
[2882]
Edited by: Alumion on 12/02/2007 13:43:20
Originally by: Kerfira
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where this blackmailing crap came from. He released his information and also contacted CCP, all his accounts banned was the answer. Maybe he thought that simply telling CCP would accomplish nothing - after all they knew it for a long time and did virtually nothing
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Nepereta
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:51:00 -
[2883]
all this talk of BPOs is short sighted and lacking in imagination. I don't think X number of BPOs shifts things, it's the implication that having a dev on the team gives a particular faction infilitrator access to in theory everything pertaining to the Eve game system. Including finding the X,Y,Z position fittings etc of ships and poses. The contents of chatchannels. The state of a particular node. Remember bookmarks and such are all stored server side so they are all suspect.
Surely thats a no-brainer?
In fact I think the DEV in giving the BPOs out felt he needed to be caught. If I was him I personally would of acquired the BPOs by watching the lottery winners and camping out the appropiate stations in game. Would of been clean and safer than what this dude did.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:51:00 -
[2884]
Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 13:48:13 Kefira.
there are some things you dismissed as no proof.
1. BoB leadership set up and operated a cynonet which utalised shared accounts , the proof has beeen sent to CCP and is available on another website, This is against the EULA 2.The Cynonet was in use when T20 was in charge of BoBs capital fleet, it is inconcievable that he was not aware of this breach of the EULA 3. T20 has only admitted to 6 BPO's, there is enough eveidence on another website to point to at least 10 4. Kugutsumen did NOT post RL info on the Eve-o forums, he posted it in a private forum on a 3rd party website, from where it WAS copied onto Eve-o 5. Sir Molle DID post RL info on the Eve -O forums and is not banned. The reasons CCP gave for banning Kugutsumen is the posting of RL info, why is the axe not falling fairly 6. Kugutsuman has been accused of illegal hacking etc, without any opportunity to defend himself on the eve-o forums, yet CCP says they have no proof of ANY illegal activety, and on another website it has been clearly shown that the data came from a mole who dumped the data and passed it onto to Kugutsumen.
All this evidence and info is out there on the web on a website we are not allowed to link to here. I suggest those with an open mind remember Google is your friend and go and read and make your own minds up.
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:51:00 -
[2885]
Originally by: Alumion Edited by: Alumion on 12/02/2007 11:16:38 When exactly did Kugutsumen "blackmailed" anyone? As far as I know he posted it immediately on his blog which kind of defeats the point in blackmailing
If any proof exists that he indeed blackmailed BoB/CCP, where is it? Can you say propaganda?
Oddly enough in his own forums in the section where he posted an IRC chatlog section - he was demanding a nyx and dbpreacher be kicked from BoB.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:51:00 -
[2886]
Originally by: Kerfira The correct procedure is, that if you have proof (yes, you know, PROOF) of any other player in the game cheating, then you inform CCP ...
The playerbase is NOT CAPABLE of deciding whether anyone has cheated, and is NOT CAPABLE of deciding whether something is 'proof' or not
Thanks for the advice, Kerfira.
Remember lads:
1) If you have PROOF of cheating, you must report it to CCP.
2) You are NOT CAPABLE of deciding if you have proof.
Or you could, just, you know, make your own judgments on the evidence presented like people do every single day of their lives. 'sup to you, really.
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Barry O'mass
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:52:00 -
[2887]
this is not a court of law so how or where the information was obtained is not importent.. what is important is the view of CCP in the eyes of the puplic.
Alot of questions have been asked, not all are unacceptable, and it is up to CCP to answer them.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:54:00 -
[2888]
Quote: 1) If you have PROOF of cheating, you must report it to CCP
then look for another game to play as your accounts will be banned, and the cheats will slander and defame you and reveal your RL details on the Eve-o forums unpunished
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Trilliam Blackthorn
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:56:00 -
[2889]
Again....easy fix to all the hubbub:
DEVELOPERS ARE FORBIDDEN TO PLAY ON TQ.
Customer confidence restored. End of Story.
Remove the ability for Dev's to corrupt the game, and all this will be moot.
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Secretary
Bargain consumables
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:57:00 -
[2890]
While i understand the calls for "more information! omg tell us something is being done!!!11" it's going to take a while for ccp to produce a statement. There's enough smart people who read the forums and grandmaster forumwarriors that CCP should know to sculpt their statement with exquisite care. Any statement has to convince the large majority of players to keep paying. There has been an incident of GM cheating in the past but it seems that while CCP fired the offender they didn't impliment the changes they claimed they would so to regain any credibility they have to enforce a policy that's actually already there and one which provides some mechanism by which the players can measure performance of the policys effect or at least guage the bias they're up against when they submit a petition or fall victim to a petition.
The other option is of course the mushroom option where we're told all is well and "steps have been taken" but nothing substantial occurs, some players quit most don't until the next time a GM or dev is caught breaking the rules.
CCP reserve the right to ban anyone for any reason they choose so the molle / haxor arguments are void. CCP are under no obligation to fire anyone on the demand of the community, their shareholders may have some say but customers don't so please stop demanding heads.
There is a better game. If you love eve then you'll keep playing, if this event has caused you to feel betrayed then you won't. Shouting on the forums may seem like a viable way to get CCP to hear your views but really they're only interested in your money.
There is no fair. Your only feedback to CCP is to play or quit. I am an alt.
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Natalie Scarlett
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:57:00 -
[2891]
Originally by: Liquid Vision I doubt we ever get an answer. Pretty simple reason why too. The highest high ups at CCP are the ones involved. Just hear me out and try not to scream tin-foil hat before you read it.
CCP was created, in part, by a LARGE group of people that played in the same guild over on Ultima Online. Supposedly they were a buncha pvp griefers and ruled with an iron-fist. Anyways. . .all those guys came over to CCP and MANY of them are on the dev team. So, you gotta buncha guys that played together in UO and then started their own game or started their own crew inside a game they were developing, whatever you wanna call it. Why is it such a leap of imagination to believe that these guys would want to play together again? Of COURSE they would. So, this idea that there are devs in EVERY alliance and blah blah blah is just as unfounded as the idea that ALL devs are in BOB. . .and I'd be willing to suggest that the latter is MUCH more plausible than the former. In fact, while it can't be "proven" of course. . .many folks in the know suspect that Oveur and kieron themselves play in BOB as well as Lemonde (who might not even be of voting age yet he's a dev. . .no offense Lemonde)
So, this idea that T20 is the ONLY dev in BOB and the ONLY dev helping BOB is just as asinine as any wild-eyed conspiracy theory thrown out there. However, I'd argue that circumstances seem to point towards multiple high-ranking devs/employees being in BOB and giving them an unfair advantage. Of course we'll never know unless kugutsumen decides to hack CCP and expose their logs, because they sure as hell aren't gonna spill the beans. They had 6 months to place all the blame on T20 and be up-front with the community and instead they covered it up. Probably because the rest of them are just as guilty as T20.
In another words... Those DEVs are not simple game programmers devs. They have CCP GAMES COMPANY shares. Did you get the problem?
Hey Kids. You know.... now you are running a business company!
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Lunadi
Minmatar Solar Trade
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:05:00 -
[2892]
The sad thing is that it's the first time I had to refer to some out of games forums & resources to find out what actually happened or could have happened over there. Sad, because i realise it mean I started to disbelieve CCP have done eveything in this matter and actually plays fair with the community.
-------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE |
D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:06:00 -
[2893]
Edited by: D''an Y''eal on 12/02/2007 14:03:39 I call bull****. The new devblog about their stupid f-ing magazine is now up. Whew...... I'm glad it's all over now. I can sleep easy cause I know how the advertising in a magazine works. Thanks CCP for burning the midnight oil all weekend to re-establish your customers trust in you with this. Come on! ----------------- Read This |
Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:10:00 -
[2894]
Originally by: Trilliam Blackthorn Again....easy fix to all the hubbub:
DEVELOPERS ARE FORBIDDEN TO PLAY ON TQ.
Customer confidence restored. End of Story.
Remove the ability for Dev's to corrupt the game, and all this will be moot.
The develpers should be able to play on TQ - However there should be no use of any / commands and ANY meta-commands should be logged and traced back to the petition they resolve. This is a sum 0 game so used basic accounting to cancel back all the commands used to create or change the production eviornment.
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Tiodus
Gallente City of Certitude
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:14:00 -
[2895]
Edited by: Tiodus on 12/02/2007 14:11:21 Sorry but the collateral damage of handing out the BPO's to BoB is too big to be shrugged at or ignored.
This HAS to be fixed; how to do it, that's luckily not my issue. But, fix it.
kthx,
-Tiodus
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Ladyah Liandri
Take By Surprise Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:15:00 -
[2896]
Originally by: D'an Y'eal [Thanks CCP for burning the midnight oil all weekend to re-establish your customers trust in you with this. Come on!
/signed
Sensitivity FTW
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Sir BuildALot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:18:00 -
[2897]
Originally by: merc999
4. Kugutsumen did NOT post RL info on the Eve-o forums, he posted it in a private forum on a 3rd party website, from where it WAS copied onto Eve-o 5. Sir Molle DID post RL info on the Eve -O forums and is not banned. The reasons CCP gave for banning Kugutsumen is the posting of RL info, why is the axe not falling fairly
See here Mittani hasnt been banned and he did the same I mean omg is he a Dev to?
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Doomicon
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:19:00 -
[2898]
I'm new to Eve, been here little over a month. Just starting reading about all this last week, it was tough trying to find the source of the information until I finally narrowed it down to a google.com search string 'Reikoku Makes Its Own Luck Kugutsumen' then clicked on the cached links, as the orginal posts are unavailable. Thought I would provide this bit of info, will probably cancel my account. Too bad, game was cool, but honestly this is ridiculous.
Suggest all read the source material, as I see alot of misinformation being spread... then again, this post will probably be >/dev/null lol.
Even thou I will probably cancel my account, I'm curious as to what CCP's policy is on Alliances renting out player owned space to known ISK Farmers/Resellers?
./peaCe
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Allan Robertson
Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:27:00 -
[2899]
I'm willing to forgive t20, whats done is done I guess, and CCP and the game must move on from all this.
--- FORGIVE t20! |
merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:27:00 -
[2900]
Quote: I'm curious as to what CCP's policy is on Alliances renting out player owned space to known ISK Farmers/Resellers?
Probably nothing... Its is BoB after all and the EULA and forum rules dont apply
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Sionn Klorgh
Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:32:00 -
[2901]
Quote:
merc999 Caldari S******dly Pandemic Legion Posted - 2007.02.12 13:51:00 - [3072] - Quote Edited by: merc999 on 12/02/2007 13:48:13 Kefira.
there are some things you dismissed as no proof.
1. BoB leadership set up and operated a cynonet which utalised shared accounts , the proof has beeen sent to CCP and is available on another website, This is against the EULA 2.The Cynonet was in use when T20 was in charge of BoBs capital fleet, it is inconcievable that he was not aware of this breach of the EULA 3. T20 has only admitted to 6 BPO's, there is enough eveidence on another website to point to at least 10 4. Kugutsumen did NOT post RL info on the Eve-o forums, he posted it in a private forum on a 3rd party website, from where it WAS copied onto Eve-o 5. Sir Molle DID post RL info on the Eve -O forums and is not banned. The reasons CCP gave for banning Kugutsumen is the posting of RL info, why is the axe not falling fairly 6. Kugutsuman has been accused of illegal hacking etc, without any opportunity to defend himself on the eve-o forums, yet CCP says they have no proof of ANY illegal activety, and on another website it has been clearly shown that the data came from a mole who dumped the data and passed it onto to Kugutsumen.
What has been admitted is in my opinion the tip of the iceberg. What I find most sickening is that while BOB preached about proper conduct upon others, they are at the center of the biggest stink cloud to hit eve.
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Doomicon
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:32:00 -
[2902]
Originally by: merc999
Quote: I'm curious as to what CCP's policy is on Alliances renting out player owned space to known ISK Farmers/Resellers?
Probably nothing... Its is BoB after all and the EULA and forum rules dont apply
My question wasn't specifically BoB related, to be honest up until last week I thought Band of Brothers was a great book by S.Ambrose. If you've read the convo in question, and the ISK Farmers/Resellers quote, it seems pretty obvious that this incident wasn't particular to one Alliance. That was why I asked the question.
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Wotar
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:37:00 -
[2903]
Originally by: Kerfira For some reason (of mistake) the spawned BPO's were not reclaimed until lately.
Proof?
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:38:00 -
[2904]
Originally by: merc999
You have the best signature in the history of the forums.
/me ponders stealing it.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:38:00 -
[2905]
Originally by: Allan Robertson I'm willing to forgive t20, whats done is done I guess, and CCP and the game must move on from all this.
Forgiving T20 is not the solution to this problem. Tell me honestly - do YOU know what is a bannable offense in this game? I no longer have any idea.
I can live with most of this if they get honest and clarify things. Except:
EVERY player who knowingly posted RL info on this forum needs to go! There is no more serious offense possible in this game than F****** with players in real life. I will NOT continue to play this game if I must worry that some cretin may try to screw with my family. The person posting the info may just be a jerk - one of the folks reading it may be FAR worse. K needed to be banned - so does Sir Molle. This should not need to be argued.
This is the only issue involved in this pile of stinking dung that would lead me to quit the game that I love.
I am not an Alt, I am ...really, really FUGLY! |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:38:00 -
[2906]
Originally by: Kerfira The only valid PROOF that you can trust in a game like this is what is in CCP's log files! As for what actions to take concerning the game, that is SOLELY up to CCP to decide. No matter how disgustingly people in this thread describe CCP, even if they WERE like that (which I do not for a microsecond believe), they would STILL be the only source of trustworthy information.
For what it is worth, I believe that CCP is honestly trying to run this game in the fairest possible way to all players. This is only sensible since they're there to make money off the game.
But CCP is the part that is caught telling lies. We now cant trust CCP anymore and that is what makes this thread so long.
And if you still believe that ccp wants to runs this in the fairest possible way you should be told that CCP knew that BoB had illegaly spawned tech 2 BPOs but let them have it for another 6 months and intended to let em have it forever just because they didnt want to let the rest of the players know. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:41:00 -
[2907]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: merc999
You have the best signature in the history of the forums.
/me ponders stealing it.
isnt that from a page of signatures that someone made and encouraged people to use? go look on the alliance forum or something. There was a link in some thread. you'll never jump alone
Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg |
Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:41:00 -
[2908]
At some point in the future I want to be able to say the following to a friend when asked about Eve:
"That corruption scandal? Indeed it was serious, I even unsubscribed at the time as I felt so strongly about it. But after fumbling about for a bit CCP took decisive action that restored the trust of the community, there are now clear whistle blowing policies, an internal audit division and more importantly of all policies and procedures to help keep devs/gms/volunteers etc honest. I resubscribed and I'm still playing Eve, so Id definitely recommend it to you as the best mmorpg out there."
Would you help me say that CCP?
Eve Wiki|Eve Tribune|Scrapheap challenge|EveGeek |
Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:42:00 -
[2909]
Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 12/02/2007 14:38:56 Hey weren't there players about 3 years ago who found a way to spawn megacyte in their cargo hangars. They are no longer playing EvE because CCP perma banned them.
If t20 is still working at CCP thats ok, but if he is still allowed to play EvE then thats a double standard. I'm not going to argue over the fantasy that a dev needs to play the game he is developing, but I will say that if t20 cannot do his job without playing EvE, then he should be fired. ------------------- |
Doomicon
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:43:00 -
[2910]
Originally by: Freaky Bare
Originally by: Allan Robertson I'm willing to forgive t20, whats done is done I guess, and CCP and the game must move on from all this.
Forgiving T20 is not the solution to this problem. Tell me honestly - do YOU know what is a bannable offense in this game? I no longer have any idea.
I can live with most of this if they get honest and clarify things. Except:
EVERY player who knowingly posted RL info on this forum needs to go! There is no more serious offense possible in this game than F****** with players in real life. I will NOT continue to play this game if I must worry that some cretin may try to screw with my family. The person posting the info may just be a jerk - one of the folks reading it may be FAR worse. K needed to be banned - so does Sir Molle. This should not need to be argued.
This is the only issue involved in this pile of stinking dung that would lead me to quit the game that I love.
Thanks for this info, like I said I'm new. If posting a players personal info is not a bannable offense, that's all I need to know. I'm outta here.
./peaCe
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Mephistophilis
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:44:00 -
[2911]
WOW what a stink hey! What disgusting behaviour, eve is no longer a level playing field and never will be again IMHO. I feel my 2 years and 2 accounts and the work i put in to get the upper hand are somewhat meaningless. EVE is such an awesome game tbh and if they created a new server started afresh from day 0, new chars and all in the mighty ibis i'd be there in a flash. but to continue to pay for this?? hmmm i donÆt know, a choice i'll have to make for myself....
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:46:00 -
[2912]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Kerfira The only valid PROOF that you can trust in a game like this is what is in CCP's log files! As for what actions to take concerning the game, that is SOLELY up to CCP to decide. No matter how disgustingly people in this thread describe CCP, even if they WERE like that (which I do not for a microsecond believe), they would STILL be the only source of trustworthy information.
For what it is worth, I believe that CCP is honestly trying to run this game in the fairest possible way to all players. This is only sensible since they're there to make money off the game.
But CCP is the part that is caught telling lies. We now cant trust CCP anymore and that is what makes this thread so long.
And if you still believe that ccp wants to runs this in the fairest possible way you should be told that CCP knew that BoB had illegaly spawned tech 2 BPOs but let them have it for another 6 months and intended to let em have it forever just because they didnt want to let the rest of the players know.
Ehh, what lies have CCP told? I can see a lot of postings SAYING that CCP is lying (mostly because people WANT to get that warm fuzzy feeling it gives saying bad things about someone else), but most of it falls into 'proof' of the category 'We know there is more to this, which proves there is more to this!!!'
As for CCP leaving those 6 BPO's (5 of which were crap anyway) in the game, I can see a lot of ways that could happen, most foremost is the one labelled 'mistake', closely followed by the one labelled 'oversight'. Sure a lot of people will don their tinfoil hat and overlook that, but I find these more plausible than CCP actively giving some players preferential treatment.
General advice: Stop whining! |
merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:47:00 -
[2913]
Quote: /me ponders stealing it.
help yourself ... its not made by me but one of a large number that have been created by a talented lunatic
A number have already been nerfed by the forum police.. the easter bunny one was easily the best
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rafaman
New European Regiment THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:50:00 -
[2914]
Originally by: Katia Tae
Originally by: rafaman I've read that its impossible to develop a game like this without first hand experince. I dont understand this statement. If its possible to build an entire OS based on user feedback, if its possible to build other great games bases on user input... why this must be different for CCP?
Speaking as a developer myself who's been doing this for a couple of decades (yes, I'm that old), I've worked mostly on financial and document imaging systems. That's applications such as general ledger, accounts payable, payroll, human resources, etc.
I am not an accountant, nor do I know anything about employee hiring, firing, benefits, etc. I've never had to actually use/work on the systems that I have developed/maintained over the years.
I am able to meet the requirements that the clients establish as to what they would like their application to do. I don't have to understand their business, sure it helps if I do, but if I don't I usually work closely with a business analyst if there is a requirement that I do not completely understand.
Also, someone made the comment earlier about developers would never test in production. LOL, you bet we do. However, I like to call it validating in production and not testing.
Exacly.
I'm also a Developper and I've been one for over 14 years. I work on HR solutions and used to work on Retail solutions. Working on a game its quite different I imagine, but there are tools that can be used to help devs other than playing the game in production. Test servers, Beta Testing, enable and take in consideration the user feedback. Community feedback is today a strong tool to any company.
What happens here is the same as for example me as a dev, build and implement an HR system on a client and then start to work for that company at the payroll department and do my own payroll, and even issue the payment. Not quite as that but almost.
I would not have any issue on CCP employees playing the game for the porpuse of improving it if we knew for a fact that they would not be able to take advantage of their insider know-how of the game and resources and give an advantage to the corps they are at. But thats impossible to ensure due to the nature of the game itself. Even is a player is not on a particular corp, he / she can still interact with that corp.
It would help a lot to have some sort of feedback from CCP, as an oficial statement, on how many players are there in game that are devs or related to ccp in some form, and what is exacly the kind of influence and role they have in game.
It would be a major Blow to CCP and a corp for example if the rumors of having a lot of Devs on that corp are true. If thats true then how can we know the weight that they had on the success of it? Its a matter of being fair to the other players. Paying players I must say.
I believe that CCP needs to act fast and with resolution on this issue in order to preserve not only the game but also the reputation. EVE is too good, too big and has a lot of investment done by all players (that are actually what makes this game great) to let this issue go by with no action. Banning the guy that eventually brough this issue to light (for whatever reason) is not enough.
Cheers
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:51:00 -
[2915]
Originally by: Kerfira Are people posting on the forum incapable of posting lies/misperceptions/etc?
Absolutely not. For example, when t20 posted that when playing the game, devs "play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level" and "don't know more than you do," these were obvious lies.
Repeat that word very slowly in your mind Kerfira: lies. Say it out loud a few times if it helps.
CCP was employing t20, at the time he told that lie, as a game developer whose responsibilities included, in part, communicating with the EVE community -- us, CCP's paying customers. They paid him to tell the truth, and he lied. And they continued to employ him in that position anyway.
I'd very much like to be like you, desperately clinging to my trust in CCP and closing my eyes and ears, saying, as you do, "I believe that CCP is honestly trying to run this game in the fairest possible way to all players. This is only sensible since they're there to make money off the game." But in fact companies sometimes find that they make more money by not being honest with their customers. CCP appears to have made a decision that their corporate interests would be better served by covering up, lying, and trying to ignore this issue. I'm gratified that they seem to be changing their approach. But so far, I'm unconvinced.
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merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:52:00 -
[2916]
Kerfira.. I again say to you, google the website in question, and go and read whats on it with an open mind.
All the stuff that is not allowed to be posted on here to back up the allegations that are being made are shown on there, Go read THEN make your mind up.
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Max Firepower
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:55:00 -
[2917]
There are a lot of people in this game that need a touch of RL.
This is a game
And it still is a game
And it will stay a game for ever
Firing a person because he plays the game he helped to develop? Firing him because of cheat reasons? Do you even know what you are asking here? fire a person, take away his job and his life existence, taking him away the resource which he is feeding his children and 'paying his house with?
ARE YOU NORMAL IN YOUR HEAD"???=??=?
He made a mistake and has to suffer the consequences but firing is way too much. "Mecinia Lua" you have some serious problems. May I suggest you to visit a doctor ASAP.
Firing a person because he did something in a game that did not affect anybody of you? And did not help anybody in the game to gain an advantage nobody have?
Again: pls check your heads.
Banning players because of this?
Then let me rethink your statements.
A player/dev used the system to gain something that he should not have in the game. So he illegally has it.
Do you remember your last fleet fight? You lost something? Because of lag? - No? There was no lag and you still petitioned it?
I think every player in this game have at least 2 petitioned ships in his hangar that were lost due to a normal game mechanic and have get it reimbursed.
So please devs ban the people who get reimbursed ships (including me) because we all cheated. Oh and maybe I should quit my job in RL now, because I have a reimbursed ship.
If this is the future of online communities then I think there is a new career opportunity: online psychiatrist
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evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:57:00 -
[2918]
I only have one question in all this,
the damage is done, BOB has gain an unfair advantage over everyone for a long time now, How do you level the playing field now?
We all know this has to happen. -----------
Management and Leadership |
merc999
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:57:00 -
[2919]
Quote: I think every player in this game have at least 2 petitioned ships in his hangar that were lost due to a normal game mechanic and have get it reimbursed.
Nope, there again I dont cheat. Nice to know you do though
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Diurpaneus
Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:02:00 -
[2920]
Edited by: Diurpaneus on 12/02/2007 14:59:26 I'm not an active replayer but I'm an avid reader of the forums and avid player of the game. I didnt succeded to read all 100+(*) pages but I think 80% off them I succeded of reading. Here are my OPINION:
1. CCP shot himself once in the foot not acting promtly in this matter(in June) and now blow the other foot away posting the info FRIDAY and now monday at 14:46 GMT not comming in front of us with an explication. If they continue to make this type of rong doing I might end my subscripton after 1 year and 5 mounths of playing this game and ONLY this game becouse it takes all my FREE time. I'm not angry about the money I lost .. I'm angry that I played a game in wich I didnt had SAME chances and waisted all my TIME in this venture!
2. Why CCP didnt acted in June?!? ... The new anounced MERGER with a US based company is teling someone somthing? They didnt wanted to blow they'r P.R. face away ... and NOW after the weekend they SAY NOTHING. Comunication guys!!!!! ORGANIZATION!!!!! You'r dealing here with mature ppl wich can AFORD to pay 15EU/month for the game and who WANT answers!
3. Damn you becouse you ruined the best game EVER I played to date!!!!
you have 1 mounth until my subscription will expire ... If I dont see any action I wil quit the game, and from wat I saw in the posts I'm not alone! I'm 31 maried(no kids tough) but TRUST me eaven if my WIFE would cheat on my I woudnt be SO UPSET like now!
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:04:00 -
[2921]
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/02/2007 15:02:48
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Kerfira Are people posting on the forum incapable of posting lies/misperceptions/etc?
Absolutely not. For example, when t20 posted that when playing the game, devs "play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level" and "don't know more than you do," these were obvious lies.
Repeat that word very slowly in your mind Kerfira: lies. Say it out loud a few times if it helps.
CCP was employing t20, at the time he told that lie, as a game developer whose responsibilities included, in part, communicating with the EVE community -- us, CCP's paying customers. They paid him to tell the truth, and he lied. And they continued to employ him in that position anyway.
I'd very much like to be like you, desperately clinging to my trust in CCP and closing my eyes and ears, saying, as you do, "I believe that CCP is honestly trying to run this game in the fairest possible way to all players. This is only sensible since they're there to make money off the game." But in fact companies sometimes find that they make more money by not being honest with their customers. CCP appears to have made a decision that their corporate interests would be better served by covering up, lying, and trying to ignore this issue. I'm gratified that they seem to be changing their approach. But so far, I'm unconvinced.
T20 != CCP
T20 abused CCP's trust as much (or probably more) than he abused the trust of the EVE community. CCP disciplined him according to their internal guidelines, and THAT'S THAT! We don't know the details, but it is NONE of our business anyway. It's an internal matter. If you don't accept it as that, it's your prerogative to leave the game, but treating it internally is the correct procedure that ANY company would follow.
Blaming a group because one person in the group did something he shouldn't have never brought any good (except that warm fuzzy feeling of blaming someone for something). CCP is as much a victim here (and much more so I'd say) as any player.
General advice: Stop whining! |
Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:07:00 -
[2922]
Originally by: Diurpaneus Edited by: Diurpaneus on 12/02/2007 14:59:26I'm 31 maried(no kids tough) but TRUST me eaven if my WIFE would cheat on my I woudnt be SO UPSET like now!
WTF? Are you sure? --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |
evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:07:00 -
[2923]
Originally by: Kerfira T20 != CCP
T20 abused CCP's trust as much (or probably more) than he abused the trust of the EVE community. CCP disciplined him according to their internal guidelines, and THAT'S THAT! We don't know the details, but it is NONE of our business anyway. It's an internal matter.
Blaming a group because one person in the group did something he shouldn't have never brought any good (except that warm fuzzy feeling of blaming someone for something). CCP is as much a victim here (and much more so I'd say) as any player.
I agree there, but now we do not know if there is a Dev in bob or not, nor do we know who are responible or who were aware of the fact. -----------
Management and Leadership |
Lucre
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:08:00 -
[2924]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Xthril Ranger But CCP is the part that is caught telling lies. We now cant trust CCP anymore and that is what makes this thread so long.
Ehh, what lies have CCP told?
Originally by: Kieron CCP has taken these charges very seriously and since they surfaced we have launched a thorough investigation...
As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employeeÆs identity became public knowledge within his corporation...
The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc... Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employeesÆ EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct...
We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all...
Now, it's a curious thing, but there's nothing there about cheating devs or created bpos? And note the carefully chosen tenses of "last summer" and "will prevent".
I'll grant it's a lie of omission rather than a flat-out lie (well, except maybe for the bit about "rigid" procedures which clearly aren't). But in some ways, that's worse as it's a lie deliberately designed to be deniable.
It's catch-22. Only CCP know the truth, but they need to stop the cover-up otherwise even the truth won't be believed if and when they tell all of it. |
Alumion
Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:12:00 -
[2925]
Edited by: Alumion on 12/02/2007 15:12:54
Originally by: Kerfira
T20 != CCP
T20 abused CCP's trust as much (or probably more) than he abused the trust of the EVE community. CCP disciplined him according to their internal guidelines, and THAT'S THAT! We don't know the details, but it is NONE of our business anyway. It's an internal matter. If you don't accept it as that, it's your prerogative to leave the game, but treating it internally is the correct procedure that ANY company would follow.
Blaming a group because one person in the group did something he shouldn't have never brought any good (except that warm fuzzy feeling of blaming someone for something). CCP is as much a victim here (and much more so I'd say) as any player.
No. If T20's actions would have came to CCP as a surprise why didn't they enforced their own policy and fired him? They knew what he was doing and tried to save his position
-----
Power corupts |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:13:00 -
[2926]
Originally by: Kerfira T20 != CCP
You have not read all the statements. Not only did one Developer, t20, make false statements. So did Keiron in some of the previous notices. Disingenuous statements... but factually untrue.
For years many have operated with the knowledge that favoritism exists. Knowledge gained from personal experience and disappointments. Since I returned, after leaving from sheer frustration, I've learned how to remain objective whenever such things are demonstrated. I pop in my Bill Cosby tape and watch as he talks about the screaming 4 yr old and how the parent chastises the other kids for the actions of the screaming 4 yr old.
"Parents aren't interested in justice. They just want quiet!"
Paraphrase as you will, apply it to CCP - focus on "aren't interested in justice".
This thread has lived long enough and has gone beyond pointless. As I'm still going to extract from Eve what I've always been extracting regardless of the cheating, lying, and conniving by sooo many no matter how this turns out.... I think I'll stop watching this train wreck continue.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Juliet Echo
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:13:00 -
[2927]
Originally by: merc999
1. BoB leadership set up and operated a cynonet which utalised shared accounts , the proof has beeen sent to CCP and is available on another website, This is against the EULA 2.The Cynonet was in use when T20 was in charge of BoBs capital fleet, it is inconcievable that he was not aware of this breach of the EULA 3. T20 has only admitted to 6 BPO's, there is enough eveidence on another website to point to at least 10 4. Kugutsumen did NOT post RL info on the Eve-o forums, he posted it in a private forum on a 3rd party website, from where it WAS copied onto Eve-o 5. Sir Molle DID post RL info on the Eve -O forums and is not banned. The reasons CCP gave for banning Kugutsumen is the posting of RL info, why is the axe not falling fairly 6. Kugutsuman has been accused of illegal hacking etc, without any opportunity to defend himself on the eve-o forums, yet CCP says they have no proof of ANY illegal activety, and on another website it has been clearly shown that the data came from a mole who dumped the data and passed it onto to Kugutsumen.
All this evidence and info is out there on the web on a website we are not allowed to link to here. I suggest those with an open mind remember Google is your friend and go and read and make your own minds up.
/me signs!
I am VERY disappointed to you CCP. ..all those lies... |
Ashareth
Caldari Disturbed Hoggs
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:15:00 -
[2928]
It's funny to see that nearly all of thoses who ask to calm down, repeat it's just a game, demand proof and so on... are alts and others without corp or/and alliance ticker activated...
So much for assuming what you are.
On another note, as i told friends, for me, like many others, the point and problem is NOT that a dev/gm played and cheated. It was bound to happens, it happened in nearly every mmorpg ever made. (yes, at the moment where people have powers on a game, some of them will go over the edge and cheat for their own advantage or friend's advantage, it's Human nature[and not the best part of it]).
The only thing is that, in Eve, with the single shard, one of those cheating is affecting ALL the player base instead of just one server. And worst of all, with the player driven way of Eve, even people not directly opposing the side helped are affected.
The problem is that CCP tried to use the "hide our head in the sand, there is no problem" policy, when everyone knows it doesn't work EVE. It'll still be a time when somebody will find out and spread the word. And at this time, it's worse than ever.
It's what happened there. CCP admitted they caught t20 cheating in JUNE 06... and did nearly nothing, even authorized him to leave some of his ill-gained riches to his corp(and from rumors, his alts in RKK...). And instead of coming clear with it, suspending all implicated parties until an investigations was lead and informing the community, they tried to hide it.
It took despisable actions from Kugusts and co and full disclosure to the community, with nearly a revolt to only get a minimal explanation and a sacrificial lamb offered(and not fully since he is still working at CCP and playing Eve, probably with the same account and only name/portrait/history reset..:().
It's not what is asked here. The community NEED to have informations, guarentess, things that can be verified and trusted.
First, CCP should review their policies, specially banning policies, and make them REALLY clear and public. Second, they should make CCP's policy about dev/gm/ISD playing and the sanctions induced by violations of these rules, public.
Third, we should have a list of bans, either forums/sisi/tq bans, of all banned, the duration and the reason. Four, we should have a direct way to report possible dev/gm/isd abuse to the IA department. If it's the dev/gm/ISD members that review those petition, there is a BIG chance the IA dpt never see them....
And at last, we need to know what mecanisms they implemented to be sure nothing like that ever happens again(no 6 months of continued exploiting of ill gained goods until removal, no trying to hide it from the community, etc), and try to regain the community trust.
The most important thing in there is the trust of the community, but the way it was handled too. What impedes others devs inn BoD or other alliances to cheat now? The worst they could have is the renaming of their char and a slap on the wrist, since T20 is now a precedent.
Why whenn isk buyers and others cheaters are caught ALL their transactions ingame are canceled, including the valind ones their clients had no knowledge of, and when a dev is caught handling t2 bpos(worth dozens of billions isks...) thoses bpos are left to his corp, and nothing is done on the transactions made with them?
It's THAT that makes Eve and CCP looks bad, that and the poorly managed communication. Nearly all major gaming sites have done an article on Eve/CCP, even made first page on The Register and Slashdot. Everyone is waiting to know how CCP handle this, and all we know is some BS PR(and pretty bad too, even starforce PR is better, and their are terrible at it...:(), and no answers unless you count the minimal recognition of T20(you don't risk your work for so little things, once you go that way you go ALL the way everyone knows that...).
I love Eve, i respect CCP, but they boteched this. We need ANSWERS!!! ------------------------------------------------
"Heaven is for the Dead Hell is for the Living"
Harrisson Flowerchild AndromFde |
Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:17:00 -
[2929]
Come on CCP, its 15:00 GMT now, enough time for ISD to let you know that the Forums are overflowing with anger and hatred over this issues...where is the official statement? This needs the CEO out in front of the companies customers explaining how he is going to prevent his employees form ripping off the companies customers again!!!!
This Char is an Alt.
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Tabet Saens
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:19:00 -
[2930]
Originally by: Max Firepower There are a lot of people in this game that need a touch of RL.
This is a game
And it still is a game
And it will stay a game for ever
Firing a person because he plays the game he helped to develop? Firing him because of cheat reasons? Do you even know what you are asking here? fire a person, take away his job and his life existence, taking him away the resource which he is feeding his children and 'paying his house with?
ARE YOU NORMAL IN YOUR HEAD"???=??=?
He made a mistake and has to suffer the consequences but firing is way too much.
No, capital punishment would be "way too much". Firing is not. It is fairly common policy for a BUSINESS to fire an employee who has committed an unethical act if/when that act has serious repercussions to the BUSINESS.
Let's look at it another way. T20 is not the only employee at CCP. There are hundreds of employees needing the job at CCP to feed their families. One employee decides to have "fun" with a product that happens to be their core business. The product loses favor with the community and suffers account losses. Who is being hurt here? If the company starts losing money, it often has to reduce workforce.
That is WHY there are rules in place. Not only to punish the evil doers, but to prevent future infractions.
Worst case scenario: EVE dies, because CCP loses trust within the community. Dozens, possibly hundreds, of CCP employees lose their job, because a dev cheated IN A GAME.
Puts a slightly different perspective on your argument doesn't it?
EVE is a game to us, but it is a product and a business venture to CCP. It is as serious to them, as making computers are to my company, and making cars are to car companies.
That is why companies have ethical guidelines and rules of conduct.
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D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:25:00 -
[2931]
Originally by: Kerfira
T20 != CCP
T20 abused CCP's trust as much (or probably more) than he abused the trust of the EVE community. CCP disciplined him according to their internal guidelines, and THAT'S THAT! We don't know the details, but it is NONE of our business anyway. It's an internal matter. If you don't accept it as that, it's your prerogative to leave the game, but treating it internally is the correct procedure that ANY company would follow.
Blaming a group because one person in the group did something he shouldn't have never brought any good (except that warm fuzzy feeling of blaming someone for something). CCP is as much a victim here (and much more so I'd say) as any player.
One of the points is that they DID NOT discipline him according to their guidelines. Their guidelines would have dictated firing him. I'm not mad at CCP because of t20 (blaming a group for the action of 1 is indeed wrong). If they found this out and took care of it IN JUNE I probably would have felt sorry for CCP for having such a dishonest employee in their ranks and glad they got rid of him.
I'm mad at CCP because of CCP. They have nobody to blame in this but themselves. Until they change and prove they don't condone their employees cheating their customers this is a company which will no longer be getting my money.
They have some time before my sub runs out. After that I will consider my time in EVE much like high school: had some fun, learned some things, grew up, and left after 4 years. ----------------- Read This |
Weihenstephan
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:25:00 -
[2932]
Support CCP
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:30:00 -
[2933]
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Xthril Ranger But CCP is the part that is caught telling lies. We now cant trust CCP anymore and that is what makes this thread so long.
Ehh, what lies have CCP told?
Originally by: Kieron CCP has taken these charges very seriously and since they surfaced we have launched a thorough investigation...
As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employeeÆs identity became public knowledge within his corporation...
The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc... Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employeesÆ EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct...
We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all...
Now, it's a curious thing, but there's nothing there about cheating devs or created bpos? And note the carefully chosen tenses of "last summer" and "will prevent".
I'll grant it's a lie of omission rather than a flat-out lie (well, except maybe for the bit about "rigid" procedures which clearly aren't). But in some ways, that's worse as it's a lie deliberately designed to be deniable.
It's catch-22. Only CCP know the truth, but they need to stop the cover-up otherwise even the truth won't be believed if and when they tell all of it.
So in your own words, they didn't lie. Thank you.
Please remember that CCP is under NO obligation to share the result of their internal disciplinary investigations with you. In fact there might be employee protection laws that forbid them from doing so without the consent of the employee (I know some countries has laws for that).
If you have a tin-foil hat this big, nothing will ever convince you. I point here to your last statement, which precludes any closure as you're assuming there is more. You'll always assume there is more. Mostly because you haven't seen a public hanging....
CCP (and the dev in question) has come clear about the whole business. Yes, 6 BPO's were spawned by a dev. Yes, the dev was punished in the summer (pretty fast reaction time by CCP in fact). Yes, they didn't make this public at that time (which they're fully entitled not to, and maybe legally bound not to). Yes, for some reason (and CCP are the only ones knowing why, but it could be simple oversight) the BPO's were not removed from the game until recently. That is the extent of the matter! There is NO other proof of anything, except of.c. peoples need to think bad things about others....
Lynch-mob justice FTW!
/me is disgusted....
General advice: Stop whining! |
Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:31:00 -
[2934]
Just remember at the end of the day, CCP is a commercial company...even if it was started by a bunch of UO greifers. They screw around with the player base like this and lose customers, then commercial pressures will demand that heads roll.
This Char is an Alt.
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Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:31:00 -
[2935]
This makes me wonder why I still play this game, I don't want to leave because I like the game so much but you have to wonder.....we are not playing on the same terms as others.
It's a sad fact that in ALL fairness to CCP means they are losing subscribers.
I for one have not decided what to do but I doubt I will leave over it and I doubt we will get the full truth of what happened.
All I know is since this came out things have changed and will continue to change as these alligations go on which again is a very sad thing
CCP WHY DIDNT U JUST TELL US ASAP AND WHY HIDE IT FOR MONTHS?
^ thats the answer I want from CCP and then I want proof as how they are going to combat this in the futute
THEN I want proof that every dev has been vetted for the rest of there playing life.
I cannot trust Devs not to cheat anymore
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Drabzz
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:31:00 -
[2936]
BoB is just another athlete caught using steroids and T20 is just another corrupt politician who will probably be (viciously) promoted for his efforts. Art reflects life!
Cheaters will never understand that the only ones they can really cheat are themselves; they would need a conscience to think that.
Quote: The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:
Is this raffle anything like the (alleged) T2 BPO lottery by any chance? I'm just waiting for that story to break... It really is hard to believe anything he says after this.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:32:00 -
[2937]
is keiron still answering concerns in the other thread? because theres still alot of valid concerns/questions that havent been answered.
i can only assume alot of the other stuff posted in here is beeing "investigated" aswell and your waiting for the results?
please we need to be informed about whatever is going on.
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:33:00 -
[2938]
Kerfira, give it up man, nobody is listening to BoB alts...the cats outta the bag.
This Char is an Alt.
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Max Firepower
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:33:00 -
[2939]
Edited by: Max Firepower on 12/02/2007 15:32:18 Edited by: Max Firepower on 12/02/2007 15:30:19
Originally by: Tabet Saens
Originally by: Max Firepower There are a lot of people in this game that need a touch of RL.
This is a game
And it still is a game
And it will stay a game for ever
Firing a person because he plays the game he helped to develop? Firing him because of cheat reasons? Do you even know what you are asking here? fire a person, take away his job and his life existence, taking him away the resource which he is feeding his children and 'paying his house with?
ARE YOU NORMAL IN YOUR HEAD"???=??=?
He made a mistake and has to suffer the consequences but firing is way too much.
No, capital punishment would be "way too much". Firing is not. It is fairly common policy for a BUSINESS to fire an employee who has committed an unethical act if/when that act has serious repercussions to the BUSINESS.
Let's look at it another way. T20 is not the only employee at CCP. There are hundreds of employees needing the job at CCP to feed their families. One employee decides to have "fun" with a product that happens to be their core business. The product loses favor with the community and suffers account losses. Who is being hurt here? If the company starts losing money, it often has to reduce workforce.
That is WHY there are rules in place. Not only to punish the evil doers, but to prevent future infractions.
Worst case scenario: EVE dies, because CCP loses trust within the community. Dozens, possibly hundreds, of CCP employees lose their job, because a dev cheated IN A GAME.
Puts a slightly different perspective on your argument doesn't it?
EVE is a game to us, but it is a product and a business venture to CCP. It is as serious to them, as making computers are to my company, and making cars are to car companies.
That is why companies have ethical guidelines and rules of conduct.
first: eve would not lose any trust if they did not commit it by their own that something happend. dont forget, if ccp would not have said anything you would be clueless like before.
the only thing that can be disctribed as theft is if this scenario is true:
Ebay sells isk, CCP is a mafia group of very ebil people and spawns isk and sell them on ebay to maximize their profit done by the same product in more ways.
T20 want to jump on the boat and generates himself iskfarming methods with his dev abilities and sell his isk on ebay. on a microeconomical view this could impact on the market, which results in a fall of isk prices on ebay. so T20 helped with a cheat to gain himself money (Ç) and impact the ability of CCPs 2nd money machine to make money as the sellprice falls andthe profit shrinks.- this is theft from your corporation. logical consequence the employee get fired.
BUT
ccp do not do this, T20 did not do this and CCP is no mafia *tinfoil hat*
so all your tiny smallminded theories are garbage! because you dont know the facts!
the only mistake that CCP have done in this case is that they made it public and gave you (the comunity) a source to speculate with your garbage-theories and your "omg there is a UFO - there another one and omg this is the biggest UFO i ve ever saw" illusions.
get in touch with reality, nobody cares what you are writing in this forum, nobody. and i know nobody cares what i write here and therefore after my secconds post on e-o forum ill stop posting here, because telling children what to do and what not to do makes no sence as long as they finally grow up one day and see it on their own that it was/is wrong.
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:34:00 -
[2940]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui is keiron still answering concerns in the other thread? because theres still alot of valid concerns/questions that havent been answered.
i can only assume alot of the other stuff posted in here is beeing "investigated" aswell and your waiting for the results?
please we need to be informed about whatever is going on.
Nope, nothing posted there since 2007.02.10 21:37:00
This Char is an Alt.
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The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:36:00 -
[2941]
Originally by: TZeer From another place I posted...
What I find funny here is that BOB pets/fanbois and stuff keep grinding on thoose few BPO like that was all that happend....
There are proof of major inside use of account sharing in BOB, and with alot of devs in the alliance you should atleast expect them to uphold the EULA.
Molle post RL info on forums, nothing happens. Kugustsumen do the same, gets banned for it. [snip] What I do have a problem with is that they know about accountsharing and dont bother upholding their own EULA.
So a member of GOONSWARM is all up in arms about account sharing, the sharing of RL info, and violations of the EULA?
Really?
Here's just one of the occassions Goonie director The Mitanni spilled RL info on the boards Here's a picture of the Eve client hack hundreds of Goonies used to cheat with, in clear violation of the EULA Moreover, chat logs were posted clearly demonstrated that lots of Goonies and RA were account sharing, while Goonie's new pals D2 were hacking RL ip addresses and have a pretty extensive cynonet of their own.
Goonswarm = hypocrites.
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Cupdeez
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:38:00 -
[2942]
I feel sick!!
I love this game and been playing for more then 3 years. Know I have to make a difficult decision weather I want to play a game that I spent 3+ years working and enjoying for so long just because some CCP employees decided to cheat and try and cover everything up.
I always felt BOB had an unfair advantage but in the back of my head I was always telling my self maybe they are that good.
With these recent events I canÆt help but think they have been cheating the whole time. Shooting players through POS shields, warping to deep safe spots right was we get out of warped, knowing exactly where everything is (POSes/special events), and they never seem to have the lag problems the rest of us seem to have.(anyone who has fought BOB in big fleets knows that I'm talking about)
IÆm sure BOB has many good players that never would even think to cheat but the problem is the devÆs and GMÆs in the alliance did it for you. IÆm think BOB has only completed everything in the game because of cheating and you are nothing with out the GMs in your alliance.
Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:38:00 -
[2943]
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic Kerfira, give it up man, nobody is listening to BoB alts...the cats outta the bag.
Originally by: Kerfira Yes, I know!! In the eyes of all the whiners in this thread, I'm either: a) A BoB Alt b) A BoB lapdog c) A Dev d) All of the above...
..... or I could just be a normal EVE player thoroughly disgusted with the lynch-mob mentality of the majority of the posters in this thread!!!!
Kerfira IS an alt, but I'm merely using it so my main in his 1-MAN corp (I think the BoB corp are slightly larger....) will not get war-dec'ed.
General advice: Stop whining! |
Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:39:00 -
[2944]
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui is keiron still answering concerns in the other thread? because theres still alot of valid concerns/questions that havent been answered.
i can only assume alot of the other stuff posted in here is beeing "investigated" aswell and your waiting for the results?
please we need to be informed about whatever is going on.
Nope, nothing posted there since 2007.02.10 21:37:00
This Char is an Alt.
Oh wait...look....this was posted today...information of earth shattering dimensions..... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=458843
This Char is an Alt.
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:41:00 -
[2945]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic Kerfira, give it up man, nobody is listening to BoB alts...the cats outta the bag.
Originally by: Kerfira Yes, I know!! In the eyes of all the whiners in this thread, I'm either: a) A BoB Alt b) A BoB lapdog c) A Dev d) All of the above...
..... or I could just be a normal EVE player thoroughly disgusted with the lynch-mob mentality of the majority of the posters in this thread!!!!
Kerfira IS an alt, but I'm merely using it so my main in his 1-MAN corp (I think the BoB corp are slightly larger....) will not get war-dec'ed.
Hrmmmm....probably an good idea atm ....everybodies blood is certainly up allright!
This Char is an Alt.
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Max Firepower
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:41:00 -
[2946]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui is keiron still answering concerns in the other thread? because theres still alot of valid concerns/questions that havent been answered.
i can only assume alot of the other stuff posted in here is beeing "investigated" aswell and your waiting for the results?
please we need to be informed about whatever is going on.
and lol?
do you really think they read the garbage thats postet in 105 sites? :)
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Enaria Ferenic
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:42:00 -
[2947]
ISD will let them know whats going on...
This Char is an Alt.
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Tabet Saens
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:45:00 -
[2948]
Originally by: Max Firepower
first: eve would not lose any trust if they did not commit it by their own that something happend. dont forget, if ccp would not have said anything you would be clueless like before.
Your argument fell apart right here. The community was already very suspicious, possibly outraged, before CCP admitted anything. Many of us were waiting to see what their "investigations" revealed.
Everything else was strawman, concerning mafia or something.
To clariy my first post, I have no false pretense that this "incident" will be the RUIN of CCP. In fact, I hope EVE does not die.
But there are reasons why a company has policies for their employees, REGARDLESS of whether their product is a game, a dishwasher, or an insurance contract. The actions of T20 has the potential of hurting their core business, in which trust is a major component.
T20 should not be fired over a game...T20 should be fired over risking the company's core business.
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freeloader
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:46:00 -
[2949]
aha so it was tru a few mths ago i petitioned about the escrow system.. if you placed an item on for 0 isk it was claimed within 10 seconds i placed 4 scrows all at same time in 4 different regions and they also went of scrow within 10 seconds... now its come to light it was a bob guy ,.... low n' behold macroing the escrow system 3 mth ban for him.. lol omg
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:46:00 -
[2950]
Originally by: Kerfira
Please remember that CCP is under NO obligation to share the result of their internal disciplinary investigations with you.
CCP (and the dev in question) has come clear about the whole business. [...] There is NO other proof of anything, except of.c. peoples need to think bad things about others....
Nonsense.
Point a: CCP has indeed no obligation to talk with their customers and playerbase. But they better do! Otherwise CCP can close down EVE pretty soon.
Point b: Dev in question come clear? Erm, hello? He admitted cheating. Also CCP admitted that they discovered it in summer last year and still WAITED until a few days? WTF. You want proof? Read their own blogs. But don't treat us like fools.
The whole weekend and half the day now past and still no reply to all those questions here???!
Very disappointing ... again.
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Dragutinovic
Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:48:00 -
[2951]
Since it seems peopel in BoB who were in the know of thinsg and actively used that info are still not banned we might as well still call teh new EvE Promo Vid : Welcome to BoB Online .
We should not diss them as a whole but we should those who actively participated in this mess . Shame an alliance now will be called cheaters altho its justa few who were responsible for it and probably are responsible that quite a few of BoB will not be welcomed anywhere else anymore .
_____________
Im back !
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Blank Protection
Caldari White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:48:00 -
[2952]
Originally by: Mikael Deco I say collective punishment should be applied. If one dev cheats then all devs gets their accounts deleted. Maybe then they'll start behaving in a professional manner instead of covering for each other. Also they should restart their accounts with no assests or isk (any isk transfered before deletion should be revoked if they try to store it through a 3rd party).
I very agree on this. When a player buys ISK on ebay he gets a warning and his wallet gets the same ammount of ISK but negative. Same and stronger rules especially for Developers. Starting back at zero or ban all there accounts thats the best solution. They all have to leave the Corp or Alliance they are joining now. Best and most fair way to deal with it.
You can sit and wait that its going to happened again.
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Broodthorn
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:50:00 -
[2953]
Edited by: Broodthorn on 12/02/2007 15:47:11 You've got to be kidding me. CCP only catches this guy because a hacker reveals the information. The hacker gets banned, the BPO's that shouldn't have been there in the first place are removed.. but none of the profits are. The guy's characters are deleted, but he's already admitted to buying/selling on E*Bay...
Nothing has changed. Just words and spin have happened.
Here is what needs to happen.
1.) T20 needs to be fired.
2.) An internal investigation needs to happen that actually finds something out that the community didn't already know. If a hacker can find something... the IA office should be able to find something.
3.) Any individuals who knew what was happening with T20 need to have their accounts banned. 4.) If they were corporate officers, their corporation/alliance needs to be fined commensurate with the benefit of the ilicit acts, multiplied by a penalty.
You can either get serious about people breaking the rules, or you can put in completely ineffective bs like you have been doing. Let's see some actual leadership at CCP. This could have been an opportunity for CCP to demonstrate to the gaming community their IRON CLAD commitment to the integrity of the game. Instead we got politicans and cowards.
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Verbol Kint
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:50:00 -
[2954]
Originally by: Max Firepower
weird unsubstantiated rant
Look you can hurl insults at folks all you want, but the fact is that this situation has real world consequences for CCP and must be dealt with in a professional manner.
It is sad that T20 may need to get sacked over this, but hey, if I was caught transferring several thousand dollars in company assets to my friends, I would certainly have gotten more than a "talking to."
Tot he BoB alts who think they are fooling people and can forum war their way out of this: YOu are not helping your cause, you are just infuriating folks even more.
As for the "Goonswarm client hack" that keeps getting reffered to: News Flash, that was done witht he consent of CCP who had full knowledge of it and implemented it in its next patch. Bringing it up does not help your case, and slinging poo doesn't either. Best bet is to demand CCP remove all Devs from your alliance and make a statement acknowleding that. That is the only way you guys get away without looking like a laughing stock.
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Nils Bohr
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:54:00 -
[2955]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 12/02/2007 15:02:48
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Kerfira Are people posting on the forum incapable of posting lies/misperceptions/etc?
Absolutely not. For example, when t20 posted that when playing the game, devs "play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level" and "don't know more than you do," these were obvious lies.
Repeat that word very slowly in your mind Kerfira: lies. Say it out loud a few times if it helps.
CCP was employing t20, at the time he told that lie, as a game developer whose responsibilities included, in part, communicating with the EVE community -- us, CCP's paying customers. They paid him to tell the truth, and he lied. And they continued to employ him in that position anyway.
I'd very much like to be like you, desperately clinging to my trust in CCP and closing my eyes and ears, saying, as you do, "I believe that CCP is honestly trying to run this game in the fairest possible way to all players. This is only sensible since they're there to make money off the game." But in fact companies sometimes find that they make more money by not being honest with their customers. CCP appears to have made a decision that their corporate interests would be better served by covering up, lying, and trying to ignore this issue. I'm gratified that they seem to be changing their approach. But so far, I'm unconvinced.
T20 != CCP
T20 abused CCP's trust as much (or probably more) than he abused the trust of the EVE community. CCP disciplined him according to their internal guidelines, and THAT'S THAT! We don't know the details, but it is NONE of our business anyway. It's an internal matter. If you don't accept it as that, it's your prerogative to leave the game, but treating it internally is the correct procedure that ANY company would follow.
Blaming a group because one person in the group did something he shouldn't have never brought any good (except that warm fuzzy feeling of blaming someone for something). CCP is as much a victim here (and much more so I'd say) as any player.
Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for CCP's victimhood.
It's certainly true that t20 abused his position of trust and responsibility. They took whatever action they took. But at the conclusion of that, CCP did not take steps to remove the fraudulent items and they permitted him to continue in a position where he could lie to the paying customers and lecture them about about "sportsmansship."
That's CCP's decision, as a corporate entity, not t20's decision alone. You may be okay with that. I'm not.
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Rieger VaunBraun
Amarr Crazy Canucks Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 15:56:00 -
[2956]
This weekend when I read all about this I was angry. I promised myself I wouldn't write a response while I was angry and waited until Monday. That wait and time to calm down might really help some of the people who posted in this thread.
Now what I feel is disappointment in the Dev that caused all of this. Like another poster mentioned, perception is reality, and now people perceive that the Devs are biased and will help their friends and corpmates. I really think that is not the case, but the problem is now it is in people's minds as fact. I am sure he has been punished, and that this affair being dragged out into the light must be very painful for him.
The one thing that I didn't see anyone mention at all, is that I truly feel sorry for BoB. They are a top notch alliance and have created something that I had never seen before in scale in an MMO. (no I am not a BoB alt, and I have been ganked by their fleets more times than I would like to remember) But to then to have this tainted badge pinned to them through really no action of thier own. I think it will diminish what they have achieved in the eyes of most in EVE. That really is a shame.
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The Assyrian
Mound of Severed Heads
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:00:00 -
[2957]
Originally by: Verbol Kint
As for the "Goonswarm client hack" that keeps getting reffered to: News Flash, that was done witht he consent of CCP who had full knowledge of it and implemented it in its next patch. Bringing it up does not help your case, and slinging poo doesn't either. Best bet is to demand CCP remove all Devs from your alliance and make a statement acknowleding that. That is the only way you guys get away without looking like a laughing stock.
That is simply false. A stone cold lie.
It was NOT done with either the consent or approval of CCP, who specifically cited the relevant section of the EULA in response to inquiries about it.
The fact that it was LATER rolled in as a feature is a complete red-herring. If there'd been a WTZ hack pre-Kali, you'd be arguing that that was legal? Yeah, I don't think so.
The fact is, it was cheating. It violated the EULA. And Goonswarm did it en masse. The Goonies can lie all they like about it NOW, but the truth is there was a time when fair play wasn't really such a big deal to the Goonies.
And let's not even get into all the stuff about Remedial's account sharing, or The Mitanni posting RL information on the Eve-O boards.
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Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:08:00 -
[2958]
Personally I think this is just the top of the iceberg and Id say hes getting off the hook way to easy.
Dont underestimate what kind of impact a Sabre BPO and a Spike L BPO actually has, and thats just from what we know. How much has happened that we dont know about?
Regards
/Doxs
After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
Ryu Jin'Ma
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:09:00 -
[2959]
Originally by: The Assyrian The fact is, it was cheating. It violated the EULA. And Goonswarm did it en masse. The Goonies can lie all they like about it NOW, but the truth is there was a time when fair play wasn't really such a big deal to the Goonies.
And let's not even get into all the stuff about Remedial's account sharing, or The Mitanni posting RL information on the Eve-O boards.
Fine... ban them too.
Wherever misconduct exists... rip it out root and branch. Screw this Mr. Nice Guy How Much It Hurts To Be <Insert Cheating Slime Here>. Bleeding heart liberals... no wonder so many of you have lost to Bob again and again. Maybe they really didn't need dev help to cheat.
We'll never know now will we. |
Verbol Kint
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:11:00 -
[2960]
Originally by: The Assyrian
Originally by: Verbol Kint
As for the "Goonswarm client hack" that keeps getting reffered to: News Flash, that was done witht he consent of CCP who had full knowledge of it and implemented it in its next patch. Bringing it up does not help your case, and slinging poo doesn't either. Best bet is to demand CCP remove all Devs from your alliance and make a statement acknowleding that. That is the only way you guys get away without looking like a laughing stock.
That is simply false. A stone cold lie.
It was NOT done with either the consent or approval of CCP, who specifically cited the relevant section of the EULA in response to inquiries about it.
The fact that it was LATER rolled in as a feature is a complete red-herring. If there'd been a WTZ hack pre-Kali, you'd be arguing that that was legal? Yeah, I don't think so.
The fact is, it was cheating. It violated the EULA. And Goonswarm did it en masse. The Goonies can lie all they like about it NOW, but the truth is there was a time when fair play wasn't really such a big deal to the Goonies.
And let's not even get into all the stuff about Remedial's account sharing, or The Mitanni posting RL information on the Eve-O boards.
Actually, the above is a stone cold lie. Goonswarm DID have permission and they have the documents to back it up. (Can't link to it because we are not allowed to link to the site in question from here). The EULA refence was another CCP FUBAR from GM's who didn't know what was going on.
As for Remedial, I can't comment other than to say if he is guilty of account sharing, he should be gone. Along with all members of alliances found guily of the same.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:21:00 -
[2961]
I have expressed my opinion that Devs should not play the game. One counter argument I received was that dev should be allowed to play to test the social aspect of the game. I've given much tought to that because it seemed like a reasonable thing that made sense. But after consideration, I came to the conclusion that testing the social aspect of the game really falls into marketing, NOT application development.
Marketing Guy != Application Developer
I went further and downloaded several curriculums from different colleges to see the differences between a marketing and a programming degree. They are huge. So leave the developers on sisi testing the technical side of things. They should not play or socialize with regular player to avoid conflict of interest. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:22:00 -
[2962]
All this behaviour of CCP and inability to either root out the black sheep(s) or to communicate clearly leads me to the belief that they cannot do anything. It might be far stretched, but I can imagine them being blackmailed in the sense of: if you do actions against me/us, i/we will tell everyone how deeps the s**t really goes.
I think the EVE community is great and CCP only needs to take action, and stop only reacting when they are pushed. Come forth! Clear rules, visible enforcement of them, open communication. Why can't we discuss GM decisions? How can we trust petitions being handled in the right manner? Maybe the GM 'hates' me for blowing up his game buddies ships? Maybe he just want to 'help' his buddies?
CCP must restore faith! Give us a list of devs/GM's/event managers with their responsibilites and if they have chars in any alliance and if yes, in which.
You want trust? Earn it.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:25:00 -
[2963]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Xthril Ranger But CCP is the part that is caught telling lies. We now cant trust CCP anymore and that is what makes this thread so long.
Ehh, what lies have CCP told?
Originally by: Kieron CCP has taken these charges very seriously and since they surfaced we have launched a thorough investigation...
As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employeeÆs identity became public knowledge within his corporation...
The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc... Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employeesÆ EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct...
We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all...
Now, it's a curious thing, but there's nothing there about cheating devs or created bpos? And note the carefully chosen tenses of "last summer" and "will prevent".
I'll grant it's a lie of omission rather than a flat-out lie (well, except maybe for the bit about "rigid" procedures which clearly aren't). But in some ways, that's worse as it's a lie deliberately designed to be deniable.
It's catch-22. Only CCP know the truth, but they need to stop the cover-up otherwise even the truth won't be believed if and when they tell all of it.
So in your own words, they didn't lie. Thank you.
Please remember that CCP is under NO obligation to share the result of their internal disciplinary investigations with you. In fact there might be employee protection laws that forbid them from doing so without the consent of the employee (I know some countries has laws for that).
If you have a tin-foil hat this big, nothing will ever convince you. I point here to your last statement, which precludes any closure as you're assuming there is more. You'll always assume there is more. Mostly because you haven't seen a public hanging....
CCP (and the dev in question) has come clear about the whole business. Yes, 6 BPO's were spawned by a dev. Yes, the dev was punished in the summer (pretty fast reaction time by CCP in fact). Yes, they didn't make this public at that time (which they're fully entitled not to, and maybe legally bound not to). Yes, for some reason (and CCP are the only ones knowing why, but it could be simple oversight) the BPO's were not removed from the game until recently. That is the extent of the matter! There is NO other proof of anything, except of.c. peoples need to think bad things about others....
Lynch-mob justice FTW!
/me is disgusted....
Well it might literally be as you say, CCP don't HAVE to come clean on anything legally.
But then again, they do have liability insurance,
Do they have investors ? do they have a bank loan ?
If an employee has shown their judgement is flawed and a problem occurred at a later date would liability insurance pay out as procedures were not followed ? Remember Nick Leason losing 700 million and bankrupting a company because procedures weren't followed ?
Would you put your livelyhood at risk based on someone you know has acted against your own interests ?
Would the investors put their money at risk with a company which doesnt follow it's own procedures ? If CCP is a stock quoted company then I think you will find they ARE obliged to divulge anything that affects their profits and in short order.
Would you like to be employeed at a company which risks it's assets ?
Banks won't look kindly to their loan being put at risk.
The point I'm making here is quite simply, the decisions are not clear cut as the EULA or any legal document says. What is far more important is what effect this whole affair will have on CCP's assets - Eve's future reputation and it's customers.
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Akyra C
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:25:00 -
[2964]
Edited by: Akyra C on 12/02/2007 16:22:45
Originally by: Enaria Ferenic
Oh wait...look....this was posted today...information of earth shattering dimensions..... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=458843
This Char is an Alt.
Erm, how comes compromised developer characters were "removed from the game" as kieron stated, but are still used to post on forums ? Just a question.
I`m not only an alt but also a trial. 2 accs closed ~ bye ccp.
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Ryu Jin'Ma
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:29:00 -
[2965]
Originally by: Gnulpie It might be far stretched, but I can imagine them being blackmailed in the sense of: if you do actions against me/us, i/we will tell everyone how deeps the s**t really goes.
After all it is far easier to discredit and ban a convicted hacker who blackmails you then it is to discredit and ban an ISD volunteer/Dev who is blackmailing you.
But shhhhh.... we shouldn't discuss what isn't in evidence. Wait... then we wouldn't be discussing this at all according to the fanbois/bleeding hearts.
Found Lacking, Send Packing
Consignment Auctioneer - Contact by evemail if interested in having your items sold by me. |
MrTriggerHappy
Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:31:00 -
[2966]
I also said to myself that I wasnt going to respond to this in anyway or matter (apart my 2 short posts "Disgusted" and "woah look at it fly", However I would like Kieron to answer...
I've seen a lot of posts regarding Sirmolle and the RL information he has seemingly passed out. If this is the case, should you not be enforcing your EULA on him and be banning him from the game?
The users of this community do deserve the answers that they are asking for, we've already lost a good few players that are somewhat appauled at the way things are run.. I suppose the term is "Rules for one and rules for others". --------------------------------
My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance |
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kieron
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Posted - 2007.02.12 16:41:00 -
[2967]
We would like to thank everyone for their comments and voicing their concerns over these recent allegations. We have answered as many questions in this forum thread as possible, t20 has issued an apology for his part and Hellmar (CCP's CEO for those that are unaware) has also issued a statement.
We are looking towards the future, what we can do to improve EVE and repair the recent damage done to the EVE community. We ask the community to assist in this endeavour.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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