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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.02.10 06:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Soulita on 10/02/2007 06:12:08 This pledge is directly related to the current situation as discussed in this thread.
It is now a fact that the by principle very abuseable system of t2 BPO distribution has in fact been abused.
The community has called for changes to the t2 lottery since a very long time now. In light of the recent developments there is no more excuse for delaying a complete overhaul of the t2 distribution system any further.
A new and improved system must be installed asap.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:10:00 -
[2]
any suggestions that both cover a base supply while ensuring constant growth?
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:14:00 -
[3]
I posted a long time ago with a very extensive idea, as well as RP justifcation, but i cant be screwed finding that post.
So basically... Sell BPCs with negative ME and PE to allow everyone in on it... it will at least cap prices...
And dont make people run your **** house missions to get access to invention or the BPOs... missions are crap... the end.
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:56:00 -
[4]
Personally I'd favour something with some gameplay for the person doing the research, that had as little of a chance-based element in it as possible.
I actually wrote up a "blackprint" idea for reverse engineering before Invention came out, will see if I can find it.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:15:00 -
[5]
In light of the recent revelations by the dev staff, and the fact they allowed the BPOs remain inside a major alliance for 7 months after discovering the wrongdoing shows that clearly there is something wrong with the system.
Invention is not a good enough solution for the current trouble, it takes to long and it doesn't produce the best results, at least not enough where you could compete using them.
I believe what should happen is that it is time to seed the open market with all the t2 BPOs. I say this realizing some might oppose it but even the devs have stated in a few places they consider tech 2 to be the standard now. If its the standard it should be available for use.
When tech 3 is released it should be done entirely through invention, and invention should be improved to make it more viable.
There is no way that anyone will have faith in the current lottery, given the revelations that have occured. I can't really think of a better idea.
Keep in mind that t2 stuff takes a lot more to build as well and possession of a BPO does not guarantee you'd be able to actually produce using it.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Za Link
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:16:00 -
[6]
You are trying to use the situation for your own advantage?
He has used a little database trick to get what he wanted (like an Event guy could make appear any ships he wanted 2 years ago), this has nothing to do with the lottery.
Even if you would keep calling the lottery unfair for the next 5 years, it wouldn't change a thing. Look at the wonderful invention for therapi! |
Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 08:18:00 -
[7]
How many Dev's do you think own T2 BPO's that they got legit? I'm not talking about what T20 did but just the fact that almost all of them have been playing a long time and they are pretty well informed about the game.
The fact that there was a public admission restores some faith. But the whole situation brings up a lot of thoughts about subconscious decisions they might make.
When they sit there discussing changes to the T2 BPO system are they really objective? Do they even know if they are really objective?
T2 BPO's are one of those no-brainers that people looking in can spot as obviously flawed. Yet the only internal attempt to fix that flaw has been invention and it's not even really designed to fix the fact that some people won a lottery and got an isk printer.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.10 09:51:00 -
[8]
To reply to some of the above posts, probably one of the reasons because the lottery will not change is because the Dev fear to get an unfair advantage.
They will know for start how a new system will work, and the ones interested in research will make the "right" decisions on what to do with little chance of chosing the less efficent path. And as some of the player base will certanly do the same "right" decision, based on the availabe informations, it is not acceptable to ask them to artificially make the wrong ones to be "fair".
Even more they know that the decision they make in implementing a new system will be influenced by the game fields they like more (see as most new things in game are for 0.0 and Alliancs, not for single players and high sec.), so often they will refrain to change wat so far has woreked, albeit not so well.
If they would change the system and for fairness reasons refrain from partecipate in a new T2 BPO diffusion system, again the net effect would be biased, as the only feedback would be from the forum, so, usually, not the people finding the changed system fair or efficent, but the ones finding it negative, wrong, ecc.
I am partecipating in the T2 BPO lotto, got nothing so far, but I am really unsure on the option of a new distribuition system.
T2 BPO on market? If the prices are paragonable at the current T2 BPO prices, they will be way out of my puchase power, and that of most players, so we will be even more cut out than before: if the price is lower, the ones that have brought T2 BPO get the short stick.
T2 BPC on sale? A bit better, but it will touch both invention and BPO coping.
T2 BPC for RP? that seem the best option, will cut the usefulness of invention, but seem the most harmless one.
A bit of rambling, but I hope it clear that there isn't a easy solution both to the T2 BPO problem (it exist, as we all know), and the larger problem related to the Dev involvement in the game.
Again on a side note: I feel that the Dev need to partecipate in the game, as they need to experience it from the point of view of the gamer to see what the problem are and what can and should be done. That can sometime create problems, but if it is not done the developement of the game will be stunted.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.10 10:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/02/2007 10:39:01 The solution is really pretty simple. Put every BPO in the game on the market and adjust the prices accordingly to fit the estimated target spread and growth.
Edit: Oh and give those with research points a discount so that they are not worthless then get rid of the lottery completely and change research agents to fill a different role.
It's never to late to fix a broken system. ---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Par'Gellen Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/02/2007 10:39:01 The solution is really pretty simple. Put every BPO in the game on the market and adjust the prices accordingly to fit the estimated target spread and growth.
Edit: Oh and give those with research points a discount so that they are not worthless then get rid of the lottery completely and change research agents to fill a different role.
It's never to late to fix a broken system.
I totally agree 1000000000% Get rid of the lottery and put the BPOs on the market. |
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:06:00 -
[11]
Agents give out BPCs. The more Rp you pay, the higher runs and better ME/PE.
This could be implemented at the same time as the LP 'shop' idea that was around a while ago. Rather than an agent saying 'Do you want this?' he would say 'You have a choice of these'. You get to pick how much LP/RP you want to spend.
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Majutsu
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:08:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Majutsu on 10/02/2007 11:05:17 Lottery giving ME10 1000 run BPC's
Still a very nice thing to win and much profit for the winner, not a money mountain forver. When the 1000 runs are used they're reseeded through the lottery
No more T2 BPO's, anywhere, ever. All the ones in current existence converted.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:23:00 -
[13]
In my opinion, the way to get a T2 BPO must remain the same since ppl have invested a lot of rl money and time to make it work the way it does now....
T3, we'll see.
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Ky Vatta
Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:31:00 -
[14]
How about Agents giving out BPO`s for LPs??
To prevent people just getting them through excessive combat missions, people would have to get high LPs from non-combat mission agents as well, to even things out....
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ruffio Sepico on 10/02/2007 11:29:47
Originally by: Majutsu Edited by: Majutsu on 10/02/2007 11:05:17 Lottery giving ME10 1000 run BPC's
Still a very nice thing to win and much profit for the winner, not a money mountain forver. When the 1000 runs are used they're reseeded through the lottery
No more T2 BPO's, anywhere, ever. All the ones in current existence converted.
Horrible idea. You would end up with higher prices on t2 mods/ships that way.
People farming the bpc's not to build from, but to sell. People who buy bpc's to produce end up charge higher prices on the end product to consumer (being you). Would end up with less than stable supply to market as well, which would increase prices due to higher demand.
For those that want T2 bpo's to be sold on the open market. Sure, I believe some ship bpo's have been auctioned for 70b+ and even more. If those was the prices to be used on the prints I wouldn't mind. But then we would get a cry about only the rich could afford them.
The "lottery" with R&D is imho the best solution there is. I seen quite new players with very few rp's get a bpo, and I know very old players with lots of RP who havent even got a offer for one. And yes, there is those that got lucky many times, but then ask yourself why that is?
People who have multiple accounts with all characters on them doing R&D, and working for R&D agents that hardly anyone else touch. When that agent get picked for a draw you got a good chance at being lucky. Than work for an agent tons of other players does too.
Sometimes go with the best R&D agents, that give the most RP etc isn't always the best choice.
Beisde, we got invention now, you can spend some isk and effort and build your own t2 mods/ships. Yes the state of invention isn't perfect, but if more people explore that path and voice their opinions and concerns, maybe the devs would pay a bit more attention to it too.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Naskaya
Elegance Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:37:00 -
[16]
All BPO should be on market.
Price & skills to use them, are sufficient enough to limit the use of T2.
And let's face it : like the bookmark/'warp to 0' story, the only ones hurted by this, are those who own them before the evolution. And in the case of T2 BPO, I think they have made enough money from them.
To fix research agents, they could give points on ME research, also.
No more conspiracy, no more luck about BPO.
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Enigmier
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:46:00 -
[17]
agrred with poster further above,
get rid of bpo`s and make r&d agents off big run bpc`s, few hundred for ships and maybe 1000 for modules,
will keep the market alive, give more people a chance to compete or even become self sufficient for a period,
the way it is atm is a monopoly, those who get 1 decent BPO can print isk, from there the upward spiral of profit and the ability to aquire more t2 bpo`s with isk continues, the newer play will never get chance to compete.
lottery is a crap system,
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Fracking Beach
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Posted - 2007.02.10 11:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua In light of the recent revelations by the dev staff, and the fact they allowed the BPOs remain inside a major alliance for 7 months after discovering the wrongdoing shows that clearly there is something wrong with the system.
QFT. I don't understand why CCP has not commented on why the BPOs were not removed in June 2006 when the whole incident was discovered. |
Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:05:00 -
[19]
it's fine, just wait till T3 will come out with reverse engineering and all that jazz, then there will be a lot less focus on the lottery.
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teeze
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:37:00 -
[20]
I swore I would never reply to a T2 BPO lottery thread, because they are all just tin foil hat discussions normally, but I actually have a suggestion that might hit middle ground and please a lot of people....
What about if a lot of LP offers were made for all ships where you could convert your cyclone to a sleip, or your EMP s to quake, a lot like the "freed slaves" issues. You already can I believe with things like wolves.
This would introduce more offers that would please the missioners, rather than just heading for that fleet tempy, what next, oh another fleet tempy.... hence protecting the value of them. It would not adversely effect the BPO values themselves to a major degree as the ability to produce on demand exactly what you want is still invaluble.
PvPers would be able to buy off market easier, but of the LP figures were high enough (i.e. adjusted for curent sales figures on a regular bais) so you were not getting a munnin for the same LP as a +3 plant. This could also be extended to storylines to add variety, and maybe even agent time reward payments "complete this Blockade within 3 hours and get a LAR II)... there is so much T2 gear that it would add interest again. It would also dilute the supply of implants flooding to the market, stabilising this aspect too.
It keeps the balance of the producer having a lot of control, but also with there being an alternative source onto the market.
Just my two-penneth worth. whadda ya think?
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Steve Holt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Genericforumalt Edited by: Genericforumalt on 10/02/2007 12:06:13Also putting them on the market is the WORST IDEA EVER. It would pretty much invalidate an entire career path/months of skill training. CCP knows this and this is why it would never happen, ever happen. It's simply too radical a change, even for CCP. The system that we have now is the best we can get without a horrible grind.
The lottery is already the WORST IDEA EVER to begin with so spare me.
If the BPOs were available on the market how would that invalidate months of skill training? You still need the same skills to produce a T2 item and components whether the BPO is given or purchased.
If T2 BPOs were seeded, corps and alliances would actually fight in lowsec/0.0 over valuable moons/reaction chains which would be worth a lot more money and be more tightly contested. Mercoxit miners might actually have a market to sell to! Fancy that!
Existing T2 BPOs would not become worthless. Those with BPOs already have reaped their benefits for quite some time, and received them for free. The market price for T2 BPOs should be in the billions like capital BPOs, a major alliance/corp investment, it would make a good isk sink. If someone offered me a free Dreadnought BPO for just a little one time faction grinding, I'd be pretty happy. You may not receive 50 billion for it, but frankly that is indicative of a horribly broken game mechanic.
You wouldn't even need to seed them to the market, you could merely make them lp rewards just like faction battleships for every other mission runner. Research skills would help you boost the lp that you get from running missions for your agent, as a political connections skillbook would.
Invention could still be kept around for t3/cosmos/faction stuff.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/02/2007 12:47:05
Originally by: Steve Holt
Originally by: Genericforumalt Also putting them on the market is the WORST IDEA EVER. It would pretty much invalidate an entire career path/months of skill training. CCP knows this and this is why it would never happen, ever happen. It's simply too radical a change, even for CCP. The system that we have now is the best we can get without a horrible grind.
The lottery is already the WORST IDEA EVER to begin with so spare me.
A lot of people seem to forget why the lottery, a player-designed idea was instituted.
Its because there were only three obvious ways to distribute BPOs in a limited manner.
1. Auction. This way, only the rich would have any chance, and everyone else would be screwed.
2. Grindfest. I don't think I have to explain why having to "race to 3 million LP" or some crap like that would suck.
3. Lottery. Totally random, giving everyone a chance to get BPOs.
Anyone who really thinks 1) or 2) would be a better option is crazy.
There is no such thing as an "abusable" system; every system for distributing anything is by definition abusable if you're a dev, because a dev can do anything in the game world. Blaming the current problems on the lottery system are absolutely silly and stupid, because the dev didn't even use the lottery system to get the items, he spawned them
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Steve Holt
Originally by: Genericforumalt Edited by: Genericforumalt on 10/02/2007 12:06:13Also putting them on the market is the WORST IDEA EVER. It would pretty much invalidate an entire career path/months of skill training. CCP knows this and this is why it would never happen, ever happen. It's simply too radical a change, even for CCP. The system that we have now is the best we can get without a horrible grind.
The lottery is already the WORST IDEA EVER to begin with so spare me.
If the BPOs were available on the market how would that invalidate months of skill training? You still need the same skills to produce a T2 item and components whether the BPO is given or purchased.
Research project management is a long skill to train :colbert:
Quote:
If T2 BPOs were seeded, corps and alliances would actually fight in lowsec/0.0 over valuable moons/reaction chains which would be worth a lot more money and be more tightly contested. Mercoxit miners might actually have a market to sell to! Fancy that!
If they were seeded onto the market and only limited by moon mining yeild they would still become far too common, and T1 would be made completly worthless for pvp and other activities.
Quote:
Existing T2 BPOs would not become worthless. Those with BPOs already have reaped their benefits for quite some time, and received them for free. The market price for T2 BPOs should be in the billions like capital BPOs, a major alliance/corp investment, it would make a good isk sink. If someone offered me a free Dreadnought BPO for just a little one time faction grinding, I'd be pretty happy. You may not receive 50 billion for it, but frankly that is indicative of a horribly broken game mechanic.
They might not become worthless but their prices would decrease substantially and a lot of decent people who researched for years would see their system pilliaged by the same people who think selling a ship for below mineral build cost is a good idea. The same thing that happened to T1 production would happen to T2 production.
Quote:
You wouldn't even need to seed them to the market, you could merely make them lp rewards just like faction battleships for every other mission runner. Research skills would help you boost the lp that you get from running missions for your agent, as a political connections skillbook would.
:psyduck: NO GRIND PLEASE, K THX.
Quote:
Invention could still be kept around for t3/cosmos/faction stuff.
in summation it's fine :colbert: .
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Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
I totally agree 1000000000% Get rid of the lottery and put the BPOs on the market.
Only if said BPO's are rediculously overpriced so only a handfull of people can produce T2. T2 is meant for the rich and the veterans, not for your average Joe.
I'm personally sick and tired of seeing all the whines about how T2 should be easy to get and cheap to buy. Seems it's only getting worse due to all the kids that crave for instant gratification who are joining.
On second thought, it's a great idea, let's just spawn every ship and every module on the market for 1 isk, ban non-consentual PvP, hell, ban PvP all together (yes, with PvP I mean every single aspect of Player versus Player, like competing on the market etc...) and let's all just go mine or kill some NPC's.
Oh, another great idea, let's get rid of the current skillsystem and replace it with gaining experience points for every npc you kill or every time you use a module.
I think I'm going to go play WoW...
Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
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slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.10 12:56:00 -
[25]
i always liked the idea that limited run bpc should be given by research agents in exchange for research points... i guess invention is like this.. kind off :s
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
Steve Holt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Steve Holt on 10/02/2007 13:14:59
Quote: They might not become worthless but their prices would decrease substantially and a lot of decent people who researched for years would see their system pilliaged by the same people who think selling a ship for below mineral build cost is a good idea. The same thing that happened to T1 production would happen to T2 production.
"Researched for years" implies that people actually did something aside from train up a couple skills and grinded up corp standings a bit and let the RP trickle in. The VAST majority of us with 50k or more in RP who have received nothing could actually get a BPO or high run BPC offer with a little bit of ISK kicked back to the agent.
T2 items would not flood the market. The market is limited by tech 2 materials, people with capital (a lot of capital, say at least 10 billion for a ship blueprint), and people with the skills and patience to set up production chains. Capital ship production is available to everyone, yet there are still huge margins to make on that since the entry cost is so steep.
If you want to you could even limit the types of T2 bpos seeded, baced on how long the technology has been out. So maybe interceptor and HAC BPOs would be available, but not Command Ship or Interdictor BPOs.
Saying that artificial and insurmountable barriers should be removed from T2 production is not the same as saying 'T2 BPOs for everyone!' Unless you can find me a time machine, T2 production will always be unfair to those who simply got into the game later than others, and that is just plain ridiculous.
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Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Steve Holt Edited by: Steve Holt on 10/02/2007 13:14:59
Quote: They might not become worthless but their prices would decrease substantially and a lot of decent people who researched for years would see their system pilliaged by the same people who think selling a ship for below mineral build cost is a good idea. The same thing that happened to T1 production would happen to T2 production.
"Researched for years" implies that people actually did something aside from train up a couple skills and grinded up corp standings a bit and let the RP trickle in. The VAST majority of us with 50k or more in RP who have received nothing could actually get a BPO or high run BPC offer with a little bit of ISK kicked back to the agent.
50k RP isn't very much RP :colbert:. To get the most out of your agents it becomes very helpful to get your standing with your research corp obscenely high, I did that. If T2 BPCs were avalible to be bought with 100% certainty from r&d agents, then every shmuck with 6 of them could easially pump out enough ships to flood the market, even with the constraints of moon mining materials.
Quote:
T2 items would not flood the market. The market is limited by tech 2 materials, people with capital (a lot of capital, say at least 10 billion for a ship blueprint), and people with the skills and patience to set up production chains. Capital ship production is available to everyone, yet there are still huge margins to make on that since the entry cost is so steep.
It might be limited, but not to a degree that would prevent cheap T2 from flooding the market. and Capital ship production stays profitable because the logistics involved are too much for the average player.
Quote:
If you want to you could even limit the types of T2 bpos seeded, baced on how long the technology has been out. So maybe interceptor and HAC BPOs would be available, but not Command Ship or Interdictor BPOs.
That wouldn't make too much sense, if they were newley developed wouldn't there be more T2 BPOS of them?
Quote:
Saying that artificial and insurmountable barriers should be removed from T2 production is not the same as saying 'T2 BPOs for everyone!' Unless you can find me a time machine, T2 production will always be unfair to those who simply got into the game later than others, and that is just plain ridiculous.
Invention is the way around this "insurmountible barrier", true it might not be the best for ships but I hear it works well with modules now. and dare I ask why players who start the game after people deserve to be on the same level as people who played for years?
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Steve Holt "Researched for years" implies that people actually did something aside from train up a couple skills and grinded up corp standings a bit and let the RP trickle in. The VAST majority of us with 50k or more in RP who have received nothing could actually get a BPO or high run BPC offer with a little bit of ISK kicked back to the agent.
T2 items would not flood the market. The market is limited by tech 2 materials, people with capital (a lot of capital, say at least 10 billion for a ship blueprint), and people with the skills and patience to set up production chains. Capital ship production is available to everyone, yet there are still huge margins to make on that since the entry cost is so steep.
For those inpatient of waiting for a lucky strike, there is always invention. You can cash in your RP for datacores, either use them in invention jobs, or sell them on the market.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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The Judge
The Eternal Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:37:00 -
[29]
I didn't want to post in a t2 bpo thread but here goes ...
I have won a t2 bpo however it was in this latest batch, been playing since 2003 and that was my first one i've ever won so please don't start with the whines of how only veterans always win, they're all rich etc. The fact is that the current lottery system is the fairest method to use to distribute the bpo's between players. I wouldn't be suprised if i never won another one again.
Also the argument of people with t2 bpo's have already made enough isk out of them is pointless, sure the people who won theirs years ago might have, but what about people who won in this latest batch, or recently payed for a t2 bpo. I've had mine a few weeks, not exacley enough time to make multiple billions is it ???
Putting the bpo's on the market won't solve anything, people who are already rich will buy them, market will become flooded, prices will drop to ridicously low levels etc ...
BPC's from agents, again same problem as above. Market will become flooded, prices will drop to ridicously low levels.
Just take an example, do you ring up the national lottery every week and complain to them its not fair you're numbers weren't drawn in the lottery ??
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.02.10 13:38:00 -
[30]
The main problem with the lottery is that it is a diminishing chance of winning over time given the likelyhood of each one settling in the hands of someone who will use it longterm.
It's a weird problem though given the other side of the issue, that being value versus power of the items. A certain amount of rarity is necessary otherwise the t1 side of things becomes completely unused.
So what do you do? To me the only logical answer is to give each T2 BPO a limited time to live. Say four to six months or so. Guaranteed recycling back into the pool and inherently more chances for everyone else out there to win.
Perhaps a bit rough on those who wish to base their entire gameplay on production, but there is an adaptable middle ground there somewhere. The main issue people have with this concept is that they can't envision it being worth the time due to it being difficult to recoup the cost of the BPO. However, I would imagine that BPO prices would naturally adjust down to reflect it.
Any random based solution is going to be inherently unfair. All you can do to mitigate that is to give players more turns at the roullette table.
Just my noob 2 isk.
Oh, and I agree with DS. I don't think the current Eve drama can be held up as proof a broken system. If a dev spawned 20 motherships what broken system would that indicate? Mining? CSA arrays?
------------------- Ignorance |
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