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Bloggers #52, Tuxford's Take on Need for Speed

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 17:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2007 17:23:10 Tux, The Armageddon is the strongest of the Amarran battleships, and the only one that currently really fills a role(well). I would be wary, especialy if implementing EANM changes of increasing its fitting. Apoc role change though, that is awesome. Very awesome. Is there any word on scraping the "one bonus" idea and allowing all races to use lasers if they so please while giving the ships a real second bonus? Any word on bringing the Prophecy/Cyclone/Ferox in line with the brutix? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 17:58:00 - [2] Originally by: Tuxford I'm actually gonna make an attempt to answer some of these questions here. Awesome. Another. Are the MWD changes going to be universal accross the size spectrum? What assurances that smaller minmatar speed based ships such as the stabber and vagabond dont take unreasonable hits? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Ishina Fel Not to spoil the Amarr players their maybe-deserved buff, but why does the Armageddon need fitting help? I was under the impression that this ship is definitely among the top 3 favorite fleet battleships in the entire game - I keep seeing tons and tons of them fielded. They're cheap, and they got gank... why change them? Frankly, I think that "fleet battleship" is a role too, you know? That's what everyone calls so defined about the Rokh anyway (which is one of the least used fleet battleships in the game, by the way, due to its sheer pricing). I'd rather see the Apocalypse reworked into something that will suit the needs of the solo players better. Then you have a specific role for each from the get-go, without affecting existing fleet ship balance much. Of course, how the Abaddon fits into that is something I can't judge. You answered your own question buddy, Rohk is ver very expensive not only in base cost, but in fittings compared to 'geddon. The fittings are more expensive becuase both Caldari gunships and Gallente gunships use hybrid turrets/magstabs. Naw, he is right. The Geddon is still a good battleship. Increasing its fitting is dangerous. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Audri Fisher I don't understand, I agrred with him and elaborated a bit on why, and you say that I am wrong and he is right? I just read wrong then. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:26:00 - [5] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2007 23:24:11 Originally by: mallina ...cept make it viable for other races to fit lasers. hmmm. Since amarr are using autocannons and blasters to better effect than lasers on ships that do not get damage bonuses[punisher, maller, prophecy, apoc, abaddon] i dont see a reason to be scared of other races suddenly picking up lasers for general use. I also dont think its a huge deal if they do due to the current balance between them. As well, since lasers are supposedly "so clearly superior" it would make sense in the RP fashion for other races to make breakthroughs that allow laser use on their ships. The abaddon when using blasters or autocannons works just like an Apoc does, except with a better secondary bonus more fitting space, and more hit points. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 08:11:00 - [6] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 08:12:10 The minmatar ships that have "reduced tanking ability" are significantly faster than their peers. Thorax/Rupture? both have 5 low slots and no tanking bonus. The Stabber is 23% faster than the next fastest non-minmatar cruiser and gets a 5% bonus to velocity/level. The Tempest has 5 mids and 6 lows, enough for either a shiled tank with a propulsion mod or a decent armor tank and tackling gear. The Maelstrom has probably the strongest absolute battleship tank in the game, rivaled only by the Rokh. The Thypoon has 7 low slots, the same as the dominix, Megathron, Apoc, and Abaddon. Only one of those has a tanking bonus and only one battleship has more than 7 low slots. It does not have a strong tank. The Cyclone has 5 mids and a shield tank bonus, and the Hurricane can fit a dual mar injected tank with an MWD and a full rack of guns[and missiles or nos] The Rifter only tanks worse than the punisher, and has tons of speed to make up for it.[and 3 mids] Tech 2 is similarly setup, with only the Muninn maybe having a tanking disadvantage[made up in other areas] edit; that is to say, there is no supposed minmatar tanking disadvantage. And yes, nanobattleships need to be taken down a level, they obviate smaller speed based ships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 09:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Tuxford Which is why we shouldn't be tinkering with with too many things at one. We start with one thing and then see if that makes it overpowered and the next adjustment is dependant on how the first one turned out. Thanks for the speedy reply. I have some more if you dont mind. Has there been any thought to halving [or an other similar reduction] the cap use on lasers and then giving amarr real bonuses similar to how the speed bonus on minmatar ships was removed in exchange for higher base speeds on the ships? Has teir 1 BC imbalance been looked at? Or the lack of a real downsizing option in the laser family? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:44:00 - [8] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 10:44:34 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Goumindong Snip for space/trim quote tree Cap use on lasers is something we haven't discussed recently. We have all discussed it in the past though and frankly I don't think its "fake bonus" in theory lasers should be just better than the other weapons but with crippling cap need. That discourages other races from using them. A similar thing could be said about projectiles. Most Minmatar ships get a rate of fire bonus on projectile turrets. Without that bonus they do crap damage. We could always just drop the damage by 20% and the cap need by 50% and then replace cap need bonuses with damage bonuses. But you can see that wouldn't really be change at all except other races would find it easier to fit less potent lasers. It would only be a change for appearance sake and pretty pointless I doubt other races will be jumping to fit current lasers with a 50% cap use reduction considering that even with the cap use bonus Amarrans are scrambling to fit autocannons and blasters on the ships that dont get damage bonuses ;) (punisher/maller/prophecy/apoc for example). The downfiting problem has a lot to do with that on cruiser levels, but on the battlecruiser level it should not[though still does]. For instance, on a maller, going from Focused Medium Pulse to 220 Autocannon you lose you no damage that would not be lost to falloff. Though that penalty is relativly low compared to the tracking, damage type switching, and cap use bonuses you gain when fitting 220 or 425 autocannons[which actualy do more raw damage with tech 2 ammo]. It seems that, while lasers were better when damage mods were not penalized, lasers had 20% more range, and hit point totals were much smaller, they are not so much anymore except on the battleship level where the larger absolute range bonus and slower[aside from nanoships] speeds really does create a significant damage buffer that other ships have to overcome after closing the distance and increasing their damage relative to the laser user. The bonuses dont nessesarily have to be damage related, they could also be a part of the other aspects of the weapons that make fitting them, even the smaller versions, worth while on ships that dont get damage bonuses. But I suppose that would have to look at what happens after any eanm changes. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Tuxford the cruisers aren't really that great and Apocalypse might get a bit of a role twist. I forgot to harp on this earlier. And it kinda ties into my point about the cap use on lasers. But first i would like to express my utter joy for an Apoc role twist. Maybe you can even use that awesome black matte model for the elite apoc that has been floating around.[Not suggesting you put tech 2 Battleships in the game, just the skin ;)] Anyway: How are you going to make the amarr cruisers good without busting them with non-racial weaponry? At the moment, we have the Arbitrator, Maller, Omen and Augoror. The Augoror falls under logistics, so for the most part, we can ignore that as its problems dont stem from anything racial, but instead stem from role problems shared by many ships. And the Arbitrator is one of the better cruisers in the game, while also following a seperate design issue, and we can safely ignore that. That leaves us with the Omen and the Maller. The "Gank" cruiser and the "tank" cruiser. Now, the tank cruiser can fit a mean tank, better with capless weapons. Nothing short of a laser bonus is going to make lasers be a better fiting on a ship that can barely make them explode with or without it. Drones and Missile launchers achieve a similar goal, but that doesnt go to fitting lasers, fiting lasers will still be sub-optimal. The Maller is one of those ships that loses nothing and gains everything from fitting other weapons. There is no other real tanking cruiser in the game, at least not one that can supply a real role as damage absorber[Since a Moa cannot tank and takle well at the same time]. And making that stronger also doesnt help the main problem with the Maller. Make it faster and it interfeers with minmatar territory, give it more guns and it doesnt solve the laser problem, give it more cap and it just makes capless weapons seem even more usefull, give it drones and there is no change in its best weapon use. Give it too much more damage and it completly overshadows the Omen in terms of tank and gank, when the Omen only really eclipses the Maller due to drones and a missile slot[that cant be fitted for the most part] Comparing the Omen to the Rupture and Thorax is a bit off because the Thorax and Rupture are teir 3 while the Omen is teir 2. However, fixing it is a lot easier than fixing the Maller since it has a damage bonus already on there. What does in the Omen is fiting[and a small drone bay, but mainly its the fiting] and the fact that it wont do all that much more damage than the Maller when fitted for gank anyway[even an autocannon maller(HP maller caps out at about 317 DPS(MF)[261 for AC maller, barrage] and a HP Omen caps out around 395 dps(MF)[338 of that is guns], must less with tech 1 drones and less as skills diminish)] Earlier, i mentioned that the Armageddon was still good because pulse lasers on the battleship level because of the speed of battleships and the large range with which they have to cover. Well, if we take that into heart and compare on a strict ratio basis the DPS of the Omen when compared to the Rupture[472, 220 + 5 light thermal drones + 2 arbalest heavies, barrage] and Thorax[680 dps, Ion + 5 med thermal drones. antimatter] then a Blasterthron ought to be doing about 1600 DPS and a tempest 1135. Yet there is more agreement that battleships are balanced than there is that cruisers are(With regards to amarr), while cruisers close much faster and close a much shorter distance the DPS gap is also much wider, when a reasonable assesment should yield a smaller gap between them when the range difference is smaller, and speed differentials higher. All in all, nixing the cap use bonus while giving the ships a real laser bonus makes the most sense given the numbers and the desire to give those cruisers a role with lasers. I am not expecting a reply to this, just throwing things out there for you guys to consider when you get into the thick of it. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Steppa By the way, having said what I just did, I still think (and have since 2004), that battleships should be able to mount larger versions of the frigate weapons. For instance, a cruiser can fit dual 150mm weapons. A battleship should be able to mount quad-150mm railguns and have that weapon with tracking that can reasonably hit mwd frigates. You have to sacrifice a weapon slot to do it, so there's a tradeoff. I just keep thinking back to the battles in the pacific and all of those battleships and battlecruisers with the banks of anti-air weapons. A battleship can already mount weapons that can reasonbly hit an MWD frigate. They are called small guns. Cruisers can too, these are also called small guns. No cruiser sized weapon even the dual x or quad x guns come close to frigate gun tracking quality. Giving battleships small guns with more hitting power or range would make smaller ships obsolete. Examining what that looks like on the battleship level with frigate guns by say, "making every quad light gun equal to 4 frigate guns[or in the case of light beams, Octo light beam laser batteries]" would give battleships ridiclous damage while maintaining frigate like tracking. E.G. An Armageddon with octo light beam laser batteries with stats similar to Dual Light Beams would do 867 DPS @ 30km and 1300 @ 10. Gun damage only. With the ability to track a frigate at those distances. Half that is still pretty ridiculous. Half that again and... well then you are fitting small guns on your BS. Sometimes we have to forgo "realism" for the sake of gameplay. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:24:00 - [11] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Tux seemed to imply that a "nix to the cap bonus" would result in a neccessary decrease to the raw damage output of lasers for the sake of balance. This would then result in a damage bonus being neccessary to offset the decreased damage resulting from the removed cap requirement. All amounting to nothing technically (depending on what is viewed as more valuable, cap or damage). While I do not think Amarr should be made "versatile" (they are afterall a cruel narrow-minded people) having variable 2ndary damage on crystals would be a nice small change. Allowing them to be capable of a little more strategy/adaption in different encounters without being truly versatile like those dirty disgusting Mims. Yes, i know. I am giving arguements against that "nessesary decrease" because i dont think it holds water. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 17:36:00 - [12] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 17:33:55 Originally by: RossP Zoyka Yes, i know. I am giving arguements against that "nessesary decrease" because i dont think it holds water. A damage, range, and tracking bonus is suppousedly built into lasers which are meant to be completely unique to the Amarr. If they make the change you are suggesting then any race could use lasers which ruins that "unique advanced technology" philosophy. I am not saying don't do it! But I am saying that removing cap need for lasers and replacing with another bonus is not as simple as it sounds. Main problem being that future changes to lasers after that point would always have to take EVERY OTHER race into consideration. What would be easier would be for you to identify what weapon bonus you want associated with Amarr ship skills the most. Then build that bonus into the current cap-sucking lasers. This would make Amarr ships more effective without giving other races a chance to indirectly benefit from their "unique technology". No, it is as simple as it sounds because with pulse lasers there is no supposed damage or tracking boost, only a range boost[which is a damage boost, but only if the range advantage is sufficient enough that the divide cannot be crossed easily by opposing ships]. And with beams they are running the lowest range of all the long range weapons. At the point where range is more important than damage. Giving lasers a universal bonus does not work because different ships for different roles need to do different things. Ships that need more DPS dont get it, or, if they do, ships that dont need more dps get too much. That is why you have to build the bonus into each ship and not the weapon. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 23:09:00 - [13] One would assume that they would leave, at least, the most expensive of the faction ships alone. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 23:09:00 - [14] One would assume that they would leave, at least, the most expensive of the faction ships alone. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 19:37:00 - [15] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Tuxford We could always just drop the damage by 20% and the cap need by 50% and then replace cap need bonuses with damage bonuses. But you can see that wouldn't really be change at all... It's not a change in itself but it would allow a much needed change to the amarrian tank line of ships while leaving our damage dealers alone. the cap use reduction bonus is not a problem on the geddon, omen or harbinger. these ships already have a valid use for lasers. ships like the punisher, maller, prophecy, apocalypse could finally have a usefull bonus for lasers. as they are meant to be tankers it doenst even have to be a damage bonus. optimal range seems a very nice idea for example (works for the alpha race). or a 2nd tanking bonus...maybe even something related to cap warfare if you want to give that a try. as it stands now these ships have 1 wasted bonus if you want to use them as really good tanks. Just to make a note. Optimal range bonuses are damage bonuses for ships that rely on closing time/range to outdamage targets. Do a chart for damage at range using the best ammo and you will see why. The longer the optimal of the weapon system, the higher the bonus, which is why it has little use for ACs and Blasterboats, but a good amount of use for pulse and beams. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:43:00 - [16] Originally by: DrAtomic Nano-BS in all fairness and that is something that everyone including Tux is forgetting... We're talking 1 billion isk setups here without any defense other then speed. A nano ship comes at a great risk of loosing a lot of isk. 300m isk will get you 5km/s in a phoon. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 11:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Dr Cron How about you stop messing with crap and encourage people to use combat strategies like min recons to deal with the issue. Exactly - how many minmatar ships would you choose over another races for the same job? Finally minnie ships have a use that isn't secondary to another race. at least 14, not counting ships that get counted twice due to being best at multipule roles. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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