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[IPO Stage 2] Motivated Prophet presents, TINY.

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Braendig	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:02:00 - [91] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Sorry if I was unclear. Dividends will be paid. The only portion of isk that investors will not see is that which would go to unsold shares. That isk will stay in the corp wallet, raising the base value of all shares (both sold and unsold). The other two options I can see are to have the corp purchase shares in itself, or to modify the dividend in such a way that unsold shares are not paid. If one of these other options--or some fourth option I had not considered--has the support of the community, I'd be happy to do that, instead. MP As a minor shareholder, I am pleased with the current dividend distribution plan. Unsold shares are still corporate property and the dividends to be paid to those shares should be retained by the corporation to further incentivize those shares for purchase.
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.03.10 16:24:00 - [92] Edited by: Sun Win on 10/03/2007 16:24:07 Quote: Dividends will be paid. The only portion of isk that investors will not see is that which would go to unsold shares. That isk will stay in the corp wallet, raising the base value of all shares (both sold and unsold). The other two options I can see are to have the corp purchase shares in itself, or to modify the dividend in such a way that unsold shares are not paid. If one of these other options--or some fourth option I had not considered--has the support of the community, I'd be happy to do that, instead. Not an accountant so I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I think that issuing a dividend in the way that you suggest penalizes current investors by allowing future investors to buy shares as a discount. Here's the math as I see it with easy numbers: You IPO 2,000 shares at 1ISK ea. on a company with no current assets. Half of them sell. --Company net worth: 1,000 ISK.' --I get 10 of them. Value of my investment: 10 ISK Company does business and realizes 20% profits. --Value of company: 1,200 ISK --Value of my shares 12 ISK You issue a dividend for 100% of those profits to both the current and unsold shares (so 0.10 ISK/share) --Dividend paid to investors: 100 ISK --Dividend reinvested: 100 ISK --Value of company: 1,100 ISK --Value of my investment 11ISK + 1ISK cash = 12ISK So far so good. News of your excellent business sense reaches Eve, remaining IPO shares are bought at 1ISK each. --Value of company: 2,100ISK --So shares are actually worth 1.05 each --Value of my investment: 10.5 ISK(!) + 1ISK cash --Newcomers are now buying 1.05 ISK shares for 1ISK. I am not sure if my reasoning is right here and I welcome comments and corrections but it seems to me that issuing a percentage of the dividends back to the company on unsold shares is in effect subsidising future share purchases and my expense (unless I also buy up lots of future shares ). New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Braendig	Posted - 2007.03.10 16:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Sun Win <snip> You are absolutely right. However, the benefit that you get that the person purchasing the shares at a later date does not get is the dividend. Company issues 10 shares at 10 million ISK a share. Say you buy 10% of the company (1 share). The company sells 50% of the shares on the market (5 shares total, including the one you purchased). The company then makes 10 million ISK. It issues a dividend for 10 million ISK. The company retains 5 million ISK (due to unsold shares), and you recieve 1 million ISK. Now your shares are worth an additional 500 thousand ISK (10% of 5 million ISK retained earnings) and you've also recieved 1 million ISK. The person buying new shares will be recieving shares worth 10.5 million ISK for the bargain price of 10 million ISK, but they will not have recieved the 1 million ISK dividend. This in no way affects your share value. You're still gaining ISK from an increase in corporate NAV. It just rewards people who participate later than you as they get the opportunity to purchase the assets at pre NAV increase prices. And the opportunity to purchase these shares is open to you as well. With all that said, however, it wouldn't be a bad idea to increase the share price by a corresponding number to compensate for the increased NAV of the company. Since it's a single point of sale for the IPO, it would be relatively easy for MP to increase the price of the shares to reflect the increase in corporate NAV due to retained earnings. It would also give a very clear picture of the increase in the value of the company due to dividend retention.
Nebuchadnezzar I Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.10 22:06:00 - [94] Thx for clearing it up MP :)
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.03.11 00:22:00 - [95] Originally by: Braendig The person buying new shares will be recieving shares worth 10.5 million ISK for the bargain price of 10 million ISK, but they will not have recieved the 1 million ISK dividend. This in no way affects your share value. Here's where I get confused. See if this other person HADN'T bought those shares then my shares would have been worth 11 million (the company was only worth 50 million +5 million = 55 million/5 shares = 11million/share). Then when these other people bought their shares their 10 million investment jumped to 10.5 instantly while the value of mine fell from 11 million to 10.5 million. In this scenario, half of the reinvested profits, which were realized off of my investment went to investors who had not yet invested. That doesn't seem right. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Braendig	Posted - 2007.03.11 14:02:00 - [96] The shares that the company holds must be considered an asset at market value. If they're not considered an asset at that value, then the company 'magically' gains value when it sells the shares. It doesn't. It's converting an asset (unsold shares) into cash. However, there's no net change in corporate value.
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.03.11 17:12:00 - [97] Edited by: Sun Win on 11/03/2007 17:13:36 It seems to me that when the company issues a share it doesn't magically gain value. A share has no value until its been bought. It gains value due to an injection of ISK into the company when someone exchanges ISK for a share. Otherwise when TINY. created the 25,000 shares then suddenly the company magically gained 25bil in assets. At any rate, I fear taking this thread further off topic which is the IPO itself. So I'll let the matter lie and wait for a comment from MP. EDIT: actually if the dividend will be paid out using the formula on page 3 of the prospectus then all is well. Also, I'd like to reserve an additional 50 shares. I'll try to transfer the ISK before the weekend is out. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.11 20:34:00 - [98] you guys could always just start a new thread, maybe even copy some of the posts from this one, and have it just be on the ins and outs of what you're discussing and how it practically applies in the eve universe, versus what we see irl.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.12 02:51:00 - [99] i might've missed it; but, when do we get our shares? when all of them are sold?
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.12 03:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Sun Win Otherwise when TINY. created the 25,000 shares then suddenly the company magically gained 25bil in assets. For purposes of my accounting, it did. Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd you guys could always just start a new thread, maybe even copy some of the posts from this one, and have it just be on the ins and outs of what you're discussing and how it practically applies in the eve universe, versus what we see irl. I'd read it. Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd i might've missed it; but, when do we get our shares? when all of them are sold? I show your shares as being transferred: paid XXEzoran DuBlaidd - 50 Do you not have them? If not, I'll need to bring in the GM's to trace them down. Everyone else should have theirs. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.12 10:38:00 - [101] sorry, it was a long day yesterday, i missed them. yup, i have them. again, oops on my part.
Silver Night Caldari Intergalactic Combined Technologies THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.03.12 20:40:00 - [102] Money sent for 70 shares -------------- Director. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
Tiodus Gallente City of Certitude	Posted - 2007.03.13 12:55:00 - [103] Isk sent for 250 shares Regards, -Tiodus
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.03.13 22:37:00 - [104] Edited by: Imperius Blackheart on 13/03/2007 22:37:08 Edited by: Imperius Blackheart on 13/03/2007 22:34:00 Put me down for another 100 million, ISK transferred :)
Hyung Mao LiveTech	Posted - 2007.03.16 06:57:00 - [105] 10 shares. ISK sent.
Auri Hella The Graduates Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.16 16:13:00 - [106] I was glad to see dividends coming in today. However I'm slightly alarmed at them being only 0.5%. Should the investors be alarmed or is this just a small dividend because operations are still being setup properly?
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:42:00 - [107] Originally by: Auri Hella I was glad to see dividends coming in today. However I'm slightly alarmed at them being only 0.5%. Should the investors be alarmed or is this just a small dividend because operations are still being setup properly? I screwed up. Absolute dividends should have been 350m; since the corp holds 50%+1 of the shares, the paid dividend should have been 700,010,000 isk. A second dividend has been issued. My apologies. Multiple issues held down dividends this month. I'll try to list some of them. TINY. had just begun large-scale production of propellant injection vents. I need to take stock of what's building and what's on the market, but I estimate a direct loss of at least 300m from this change, with additional losses related to the devaluation of stockpiled rig components. Capitalization has been slow to materialize. While there have been a few sniffs, no large-scale (3b+) commitments have been made as of yet. This has cramped my ability to aggressively move into markets. There haven't been a whole lot of compression orders coming in. Again, if you know a group in need of very-large-scale mineral deliveries--lowends, highends, or a mix--let me know! For approximately a week, TINY. was without a great deal of leadership while I dealt with some issues relating to my grandmother's sickness. I appreciate all of your comments on the thread about that, so I won't drag it back in here, other than to say, thank you for understanding. By the very nature of market speculation, if I buy something now for 50m expecting it to be worth 100m in three months, the first and second months are going to have suboptimal RoI. I'm not sure there's a way around this one, to be honest; the first month in any business like this will be a little rocky as a result. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:34:00 - [108] Edited by: Imperius Blackheart on 17/03/2007 00:31:10 Hey its cool MP :) Things will take off, I don't think as an invester that it has been a reflection on the IPO or you which I believe to be solid and worth investing in, small dividends this month were somewhat expected but thanks for your candidness as for the reasons, and if I can help at all give me a shout, not that I will be much use :P I would throw you some more ISK (expecting good returns of course :P )if I could afford it, but I am desperately saving up at the moment. Being as open with your investers as you are is what I would hope for in an investment, your communication has been great thus far. And I thank you. Imperius Edit : Damn typo deamon.
Auri Hella The Graduates Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:38:00 - [109] Thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated.
Sholack Garant The Graduates Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:09:00 - [110] Edited by: Sholack Garant on 20/03/2007 10:16:47 Can I purchase 50 shares please? I'll transfer the 50 mill when I'm next in game. Edited for clarity
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.20 20:04:00 - [111] All transfers are up-to-date. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Sholack Garant The Graduates Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.20 20:08:00 - [112] Just wanted to say thanks for the quick response
Weakmind	Posted - 2007.03.23 20:47:00 - [113] Friendly bumpage :O
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.03.23 20:56:00 - [114] i don't know about others; but, honestly, after reading (and then investing) in this venture, i didn't expect to see any return on this for at least a couple of months. i may have skimmed over items which mentioned there would be a min %, or divs starting the first month; but, based upon what i HAD read, i just went under the impression that whenever you had that good deal come in, we'd see divs. cheers for the, to me, much earlier than expected divs.
Jaedar Metron Artificial Horizons YouWhat	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:54:00 - [115] Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 29/03/2007 00:50:26 Bumpanage! Come on investors, this is gonna be a good one, hopefully
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.30 09:18:00 - [116] 15 Shares - Isks sent! ------ ~~Proud member of the !s~~ I take no responsability for your paranoia ! This sig space is Read-only !
Tutreak	Posted - 2007.03.30 22:16:00 - [117] Edited by: Tutreak on 30/03/2007 22:12:57 Wrong character
istasi Artificial Horizons YouWhat	Posted - 2007.03.30 22:20:00 - [118] 20shares, Isk sent ------------------------------ My doctor have tried to tell me serveral times that eve isn't the real world... Poor dude, and people say i need to see a doctor ?
Lypert Zemindar Supermacy	Posted - 2007.04.02 02:09:00 - [119] 5 shares in TINY ISKs sent -------------------------------------------------- Zemindar Supermacy is recruiting
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.02 02:15:00 - [120] This IPO for simpletons. Give the nice MP money... she gives you lots back... doooo it now!

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