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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 11:42:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Kael D'mende Ok, so i read the golden words of Tux, but besides all the amarr that are jumping up and down, what about races like Minmatar that has the role of hit and run ? Seriously aint it time to drop the broken role for minmatar and find something that is actually usefull ?
anyway just felt like whining abit :P
Hit an run isnt broken. Nanoships are broken in that they obviate smaller ships that are supposed to hit and run.
Minmatar ships can tank like the best of them if setup to tank[7 lows on thypoon, strongest absolute shield tank in the game(while still doing damage)on the Maelstrom, same number of lows on thorax and rupture, same number of lows on Hurricane as Harbinger. Cyclone fits a nasty shield tank. Same number of lows on tempest as hyperion.
Fastest teir 3 frigate in the game has 3 mids and 3 lows allowing a good shield or armor tank.
All in all you have nothing to worry about. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 14:43:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
the resistance bonus on Caldari are far better than the booster bonus. The minmatar shield tankers have less mids than caldari and far less shield HP.
No we cannot tank as well. But speed is mostly intended to rule out distance of engagement, and not be an absolute tank.
Nope. False, try again.
Resistance bonus is:
lv 1: 5.26% effective rep amount and HP boost lv 2: 11.1% " " lv 3: 17.64% " " lv 4: 25% " " lv 5: 33.33% " "
Boost amount bonus is:
Lv 1: 7.5% rep amount lv 2: 15% " " lv 3: 22.5% " " lv 4: 30% " " lv 5: 37.5% " "
The resistance bonus has an increasing return, and the rep amount bonus a linear return. The resistance bonus also effectivly boosts HP buffer and passive regen. The boost amount is stronger in absolute terms and stronger at lower skill levels. Many times by clear margins.
This means that even at level 5 ship skill, the maelstrom has the strongest absolute tank in the game. Especialy since boost amp IIs were brought in boosting shield boosting efficiency and quality. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20 Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.
If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps
Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.
As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.
All about trade-offs. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz When will CCP realize that gentle tweaking is better than mass overhaul?
Nano's and istabs need a stacking penalty. That is all.
But of course CCP decides that rather than just nerfing that, they're going to nerf ALL high speed combat. What good is a ceptor that can't run its MWD forever? Seriously? WTS: a clue.
Shamis
They arent looking to nerf all high speed combat, read the blog and his comments.
If i were you, i would take that clue off the market before someone buys it and you are left out on the cold. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20 Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.
If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps
Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.
As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.
All about trade-offs.
Do some reading up.
You still think that the highest hp repped = best tank... that isn't the case! Read that topic, cos it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
Yes, what part of "best absolute tank" do you not get? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 17:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
boosting != absolute tank... shesh.
Absolute = complete, perfect, positive, certain, unconditional... ect ect
So your statement is saying the maelstroms tank is the most complete/perfect tank when it is actually the largest hp repairing tank.
No, its just a confusion about what absolute means and what relative means on your part. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 17:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon snip
Actualy its true when
HP/.75<DPS/rep1 - DPS/rep2
And in absolute terms its true.
And the shield tank that the maelstrom puts up is very strong. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 09:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chavu
Originally by: GankYou :
Lowest mass Highest base speed Capless weapons 2nd largest drone bays 2nd best DPS Ability to choose dmg type.
Lowest mass: Not true, have you even tried showing info on ships?
Highest base speed: True, our only bonus.
Capless Weapons: So do caldari (missiles) and Gallente (drones) Hardly a minmatar bonus. Capless guns? Meh, would be awesome if we didn't active tank, since we active tank and need mwd we need cap anyways so meh.
2nd largest drone bays: Not true, have you heard of the Arbitrator or the Harbinger?
2nd highest dps: Not true, depends purely on setup and skills. Those skills are no joke, it takes years to master minmatar.
Ability to choose damage type: Not true. The only races who can do that are Caldari and Gallente with missiles and drones. Minmatar use ammo based on range and total damage. You think we like using explosive and kinetic damage for tech2? please.
considering that EM is the most resisted, Kin the second most resisted and ex/em the least resisted tech 2 resistances, and ex is the least resisted damage i would say that yes, you love doing ex/kin for your tech 2 damage.
Now, Minmatar artillery have a problem where they have damage types dependant on range. Autocannon has no such problem, and every minnie pvp character should load up on fusion and phased plasma or phased plasma and barrage, just like every Amarran should have scorch and MF, and every blaster pilot AM and Void.
However, having damage types dependant on range is much much better than not having a choice.
However...
Lowest Mass: No, this is true by a long way, have you even showed info on ships? You seriously think any of Caldari[slowest/heaviest], Amarr[second fastest/second most massive], and Gallente[second slowest/second least massive] have a mass avantage over Minmatar? Bwa?
2nd Largest Dron Bays: For the most part true, the Arbitrator is an abberation, as is the Harbinger.
2nd highest dps: No, you really do have the second highest DPS with just gun and ship skills. No missile skills needed. There are a few ships that have it rough in terms of skills, but those are few and far between.
Ability to choose damage types: Yes, you do and if you dont change damage types regularly, you should not be flying minmatar because you dont know what you are doing. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 15:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nyck Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:04:17 Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:00:39 From Dev Blog: "Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off." Minmatar have a broken description. According to the blog, hit and run tactics are not supposed to be viable. Change the description, and leave Minmatar alone. My advice on the description change? "Minmatar aren't good tanks. Playing EVE as a Minmatar is playing EVE in hard mode." Oh, and before any of you flame me, let me explain. I'm not whining. I prefer to play games in hard mode, and I like Minmatar. I just think the dev's should have accurate descriptions on the races, that match their true feelings. (See above blog excerpt)
You misunderstand the blog. Speed tanks still work, speed still works, its just not riculously broken.
By that arguement we should bring back the gank-a-geddon because "lasers are super weapons".
Gameplay comes before fluff. Nanobattleships are too riduclous at the moment, that is about it. Speed will still work, dont worry. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nyck Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:24 Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:13 Apparently you didn't read the part of the blog I quoted, or what I said about it. Try reading it again. Minmatar are supposed to be hit and run tactics users. The blog specifically states that they don't want hit and run tactics in combat. Before telling me that I'm wrong, try reading and understanding what I said. I said nothing of speed tanks.
No, it says they dont want ships entering and leaving combat with impunity. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.18 11:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nyck Edited by: Nyck on 18/02/2007 00:17:59 Which is exactly what a hit and run tactic is. Thank you for making my point, Mr. Obvious.
Hit-and-run tactics is a tactical doctrine where the purpose of the combat involved is not to seize control of territory, but to inflict damage on a target and immediately exit the area to avoid the enemy's defense and/or retaliation.
No it is not, if you can enter and exit combat with impunity then you are in a position of utter domination when you can also kill said target. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.02.18 18:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dark Flare I haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have already mentioned this...
Isn't this going to leave the Vaga a bit screwed? It relies on a speed tank, if the speed is nerfed.. then, er, oh dear? To make this nerf NOT ruin Minmatar, they'd have to lower tracking speeds on turrets, and lower the explosion velocity on all missiles.
Well, the vagabond doesnt really speed tank, it range tanks and then runs if it gets in over its head, even with pre-kali speeds, it cant track targets with the kind of transversal that it can put out.
Anyway, to asuage the "ZOMG NO SPEED" thing
dev blog gives a number for about what he thinks is O.K. for a ship to go and sets this number as "x20" modifier on base speed[for his base idea]
This means that the following values are at the top end of "O.K."
Typhoon = 3000 m/s Vagabond = 4700 m/s Rifter = 6400 m/s Rupture = 4100 m/s Tempest = 2800 m/s Dominix = 2400 m/s Megathron = 2500 m/s Maelstrom = 2300 m/s Claw = 9500 m/s Crusader = 9100 m/s
Which are plenty fine numbers. If you can get a blaster-thron up to 2500m/s with a tank, i commend you for your "leet" skills and fat wallet.
Frigates still cap plenty fast, and interceptors cap extraordinalily fast.
As well, bursts of speed above that should be possible due to it being a cap solution, so if your claw or crusader had the cahones and need to bust out to 15km/s for a cycle or two then it wouldnt be an issue.
Anyway, 4.7km/s is plenty fast for a vagabond. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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