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Drokar Gazer
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:38:00 -
[1]
While i am sure I will get flamed for this from the immatures out there, it has to be said. The state of EVE is unfortunately, not good. Devs caught cheating doesnt help but i think that can happen anywhere, so this is not really about that.
Its about pvp tactics. Its about honor in a fight. Its about fighting for your space, or fighting for someone elses space. When you die. You are supposed to STFU. You acknowledge a good fight or you dont, but thats it. Win or lose. That has been the rule of consensus in EVE since day 1. But there are other rules.
Tactics that occur in eve everday that are not true spaceship tactics, they are game mechanics. Using game mechanics to win a fight which was never intended by the devs, but impossible as yet to find alternatives it seems, is the worst type of gameplay and without honor.
Aggro Timer Abuse For what takes billions upon billions of isk and time and team work to create, one persons stupidity (i'll admit) while flying the most expensive ship in EVE, he loses it all. Twice. (different pilots losing their titans). I admit they were really paying attention. Why do you log off in a titan with ANYONE in the system? Even if its a corp/alliance mate?
That being said.. it does not absolve the pilots who used game mechanics to destroy the titans in question (both occurances by BoB pilots). Now there is nothing Devs can do about this issue unless they change how loggin off occurs (such as 30 second loggoff rule like in other games) but they havent for whatever reasons. Still, it is upon our honor that pilots do not use game mechanics to win a battle (ie shuttles with thousands of bookmarks surrounding a POS) Why is this acceptable. Did they use teamwork to accomplish the feat? Yes, but thats not theh issue. They cheated. While its possible to do ingame, its still cheating, because you are using mechanics that have nothing to do with honor. You did not 'bring it' to D2, you used an aggro timer, again.
This is absurd. Perhaps the game is going downhill. Perhaps the devs dont care that all that work to produce these titans were lost not because they died in a straight up fight, but because another team decided to cheat by using game mechanics.
How utterly pathetic (yes i know this will be locked but i dont give a rats right now).
The log off Somehow, this is still being used to avoid dying. This is without honor. If you are flying your ship (that you should be prepared to lose if your flying it) and you get caught at a gate camp bubble.. well duh.. ur dead. And you know what.. its your fault for not flying a scout. Game mechanics to save your ship. How pathetic.
Mass Log in Since the early days of the game, this has been used, and still is being used. The whole "well me and my friends who all know each other in real life decided to play eve at the same time, all 150 of us" .. cough Bull****nit. You are using game mechanics to win at EVE and you have no honor, and are cheating. Perhaps Devs allow because they have no fix for it and cannot prove, but you as a pilot know just because the game allows it, it is using game mechanics to win.
Do i have no merit with this post? Has the game become so washed down with so many new players who never knew how it was originally when there was honor among pilots. (no im not saying there were not these issues then, but it has become 100 fold since). I am not totally blaming BoB 100% either. ASCN.. you lost your alliance because you refused to fight. The moment bob attacked you started losing members, people suddenly going afk all day in stations when there was a fight. You lose a titan and you quit Cyvok.. way to go. Then everyone else runs for the doors when you outnumber your opponent 3 to 1, and refuse to even try to keep your space (albeit a few corps who did try)
The state of EVE is bad, and its not the game.. its the players.
________________________________________ Drokar Gazer
Not the sig your looking for. Move along.
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V0rador
Amarr Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:55:00 -
[2]
Even is the most basic mmorg have some exploit possible.
and eve is very complex , so easier to find such exploits.
Sad peoples still use it but tbh its everybody who enjoy use dirty way , because war is dirty even in virtual.
CCP give us the freedom to do some evil things like piracy , spy etc , its a part of EVE and what it make it so good , coz we have a lot of freedom.
Tick Tock Tick Tock |
Cosmic Flame
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:56:00 -
[3]
Using a spy to aggro a careless pilot who thinks that just because he is alone in the system and only a "friendly" pilot aggroed him he is safe, and then killing him by jumping in a fleet is in no way cheating as you put it. This type of ganking happens every day all over EVE. An aggroed pilot logs off and gets probed and killed. In this case it was careful planning from BoB and poor judgement and carelessness by the D2 pilot.
You talk about "fair" fighting. There is none anywhere in any game or RL for that matter. The victor is always the side with some advantage: tactical, firepower, numbers, something that can make the outcome favorable. "Spying" is within game rules, friendly fire is within game rules and probing down a ship with aggro is within game rules. Hence it is not cheating.
Fair play you say? Talking about something other than pvp... Trust is not the most rich group of T2 production corps by "playing fair". They are probably the biggest cartel in this game. They have ripped off many people for much longer than BoB has been around. They don't make "fair" prices, and have huge profits. They gather up bpo's to have control over the market. There's nothing "fair" about that, ooo but wait..... lemme guess, that doesn't count right? It's all fair when it suits you, but not all fair it doesn't. Right...
Biased views suck. |
Drokar Gazer
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: V0rador Even is the most basic mmorg have some exploit possible.
and eve is very complex , so easier to find such exploits.
Sad peoples still use it but tbh its everybody who enjoy use dirty way , because war is dirty even in virtual.
CCP give us the freedom to do some evil things like piracy , spy etc , its a part of EVE and what it make it so good , coz we have a lot of freedom.
Well this is very true, but it still doesnt excuse these cheap tactics, does it? Its just getting old. No one is willing to fight straight up.. everyone is looking for the best way to cheat but within game mechanics so its a legal cheat. Its just sad.
________________________________________ Drokar Gazer
Not the sig your looking for. Move along.
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NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 14:57:18
Originally by: Cosmic Flame An aggroed pilot logs off and gets probed and killed.
Yeah that happens when an enemy have started his aggro timer, or by him self.
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
Drokar Gazer
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cosmic Flame Using a spy to aggro a careless pilot who thinks that just because he is alone in the system and only a "friendly" pilot aggroed him he is safe, and then killing him by jumping in a fleet is in no way cheating as you put it. This type of ganking happens every day all over EVE. An aggroed pilot logs off and gets probed and killed. In this case it was careful planning from BoB and poor judgement and carelessness by the D2 pilot.
You talk about "fair" fighting. There is none anywhere in any game or RL for that matter. The victor is always the side with some advantage: tactical, firepower, numbers, something that can make the outcome favorable. "Spying" is within game rules, friendly fire is within game rules and probing down a ship with aggro is within game rules. Hence it is not cheating.
Fair play you say? Talking about something other than pvp... Trust is not the most rich group of T2 production corps by "playing fair". They are probably the biggest cartel in this game. They have ripped off many people for much longer than BoB has been around. They don't make "fair" prices, and have huge profits. They gather up bpo's to have control over the market. There's nothing "fair" about that, ooo but wait..... lemme guess, that doesn't count right? It's all fair when it suits you, but not all fair it doesn't. Right...
Biased views suck.
I could give a rats about D2 tbh, we are allies for a common cause and i am not trying to pounce on Bob only.. its not them only.. they just excel at it. Many allainces use these dirty tactics rather than just fighting straight up.. win lose or draw. Nothing wrong with spy's, etc. But to shoot just as he logs off to get the aggro timer.. That is different. They did it to prevent the fight. There is no way for him to fight back. Perhaps if he logged off in combat i wouldnt feel bad for him.. But this is NOT the case. Spy tactics or not, Bob refused to fight straight up. They had the option, and took the weaker route.
Im not trying to say Bob sux. They are not the only ones. Its the entire game. This was just an example. bob have great pilots and most are very honorable, and do 'bring it'. Same of any alliance. But this junk has got to stop.
BTW.. post with your main!!!
________________________________________ Drokar Gazer
Not the sig your looking for. Move along.
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Cosmic Flame
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:05:00 -
[7]
Any tactic that is used by the "enemy" and is overlooked by the "friendlies" is always labeled as cheap. The Titan pilot knew he was aggroed. He just thought he was safe.
You can't kill a Titan that doesn't come out to play when it percieves any bit of danger. A foolish enemy does what you expect him to do (in this case a "fair" fight as you call it). A smart enemy hits you where you think you are safe. |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:06:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Wibiq on 17/02/2007 15:03:35 War isn't fair. War is simply about killing them before they can kill you. It's absolutely stupid to charge a superior force with a superior position. To put it another way, if you got jumped by five people in a dark alley while you were alone, would you jump them all immediately, or would you look for some weakness? A stand up fight only makes sense when you have the advantage. Think outside the box and maybe win. So many real wars are lost because people think that everyone should fight the way they themselves do. News flash: that's called sports, and even then the rules are subject to "interpretation".
Edit for punctuation.
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Drokar Gazer
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 17/02/2007 15:03:35 War isn't fair. War is simply about killing them before they can kill you. It's absolutely stupid to charge a superior force with a superior position. To put it another way, if you got jumped by five people in a dark alley while you were alone, would you jump them all immediately, or would you look for some weakness? A stand up fight only makes sense when you have the advantage. Think outside the box and maybe win. So many real wars are lost because people think that everyone should fight the way they themselves do. News flash: that's called sports, and even then the rules are subject to "interpretation".
Edit for punctuation.
Did i not say the pilot acted stupid for logging off even with friendly's in system? LIke i said.. i dont care about D2 or their Titan. They are not my friends. Its about how this game has come to such tactics whereby a spy was instructed not to find the titan to bring the war to it, but to wait til it starts to log off to shoot it to get an aggro timer going. They entire thought process is to avoid actual combat and use the mechanics of the game that were not intended as such, to win a battle. Perhaps it does happen everyday, but its about Honor, and while some alliances/corps dont care about it, others do, I being one of them.
I understand their is Spy's, theft, whatever. Some people use very good tactics for this, but they are real life situations. Waiting for someone to logoff is not a real life situation. In real life people dont log off, and while this is not a real life situation, it is a game based on some principles of a virtual simulation of a futuristic real world scenario, where in the future people still dont have the ability to log off, its a game mechanic.
So going off searching for a pilot to log off to kill him is not cheating, legal cheating or not? Its honorable? Well whatever.. perhaps im an old fool with old values. I prefer the days of bring a fight, and we will fight. If we lose, it was fun.
But thanks for everyone not flaming and at least so far giving valued criticism of my post. Agreed with or not.
________________________________________ Drokar Gazer
Not the sig your looking for. Move along.
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Viscount Hood
British Space Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:17:00 -
[10]
What does fairness and honour have to do with war?
Find the best way of killing/demoralising your opponent and use it to the full.
------------------------------------------------
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pershphanie
The Ancient Race
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:19:00 -
[11]
I know. Why don't we all stand in a line and someone type "fire" in local. Then who ever has the best mods and most SP wins.
Sounds exciting. Go play counterstrike.
Don't confuse creative tactics with poor gameplay.
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Drokar Gazer
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 17/02/2007 15:03:35 War isn't fair. War is simply about killing them before they can kill you. It's absolutely stupid to charge a superior force with a superior position. To put it another way, if you got jumped by five people in a dark alley while you were alone, would you jump them all immediately, or would you look for some weakness? A stand up fight only makes sense when you have the advantage. Think outside the box and maybe win. So many real wars are lost because people think that everyone should fight the way they themselves do. News flash: that's called sports, and even then the rules are subject to "interpretation".
Edit for punctuation.
Did i not say the pilot acted stupid for logging off even with friendly's in system? LIke i said.. i dont care about D2 or their Titan. They are not my friends. Its about how this game has come to such tactics whereby a spy was instructed not to find the titan to bring the war to it, but to wait til it starts to log off to shoot it to get an aggro timer going. They entire thought process is to avoid actual combat and use the mechanics of the game that were not intended as such, to win a battle. Perhaps it does happen everyday, but its about Honor, and while some alliances/corps dont care about it, others do, I being one of them.
I understand their is Spy's, theft, whatever. Some people use very good tactics for this, but they are real life situations. Waiting for someone to logoff is not a real life situation. In real life people dont log off, and while this is not a real life situation, it is a game based on some principles of a virtual simulation of a futuristic real world scenario, where in the future people still dont have the ability to log off, its a game mechanic.
So going off searching for a pilot to log off to kill him is not cheating, legal cheating or not? Its honorable? Well whatever.. perhaps im an old fool with old values. I prefer the days of bring a fight, and we will fight. If we lose, it was fun.
But thanks for everyone not flaming and at least so far giving valued criticism of my post. Agreed with or not.
One of the pivotal precepts of honor is that one holds to it without expecting his enemy to do the same. Expecting your enemy to live by your own code of honor cheapens it and renders it nothing but an arbitrary set of rules. Honor is personal and subjective. Live by your own honor, but do not expect the honorless to live by it.
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Ayrine Elenthiel
Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Drokar Gazer
Originally by: Wibiq Edited by: Wibiq on 17/02/2007 15:03:35stuff... I understand their is Spy's, theft, whatever. Some people use very good tactics for this, but they are real life situations. Waiting for someone to logoff is not a real life situation. In real life people dont log off, and while this is not a real life situation, it is a game based on some principles of a virtual simulation of a futuristic real world scenario, where in the future people still dont have the ability to log off, its a game mechanic....stuff
QFT
I don't understand why people keep comparing EVE to Real Life. Really, I'm not even talking about any specific situation, I'm talking about all the people constantly saying things like "this is war, in real war, such things are normal" and stuff.
EVE is not and will never be compareable to Real Life War. And you people better be glad about it.
Now let's get back to what we all enjoy in the game, eh?
PS: My personal views and opinions, just that. Oh and I don't know if this will once more be seen as my alt, but I can actually assure you this is my main character. I haven't figured the Forum settings out yet.
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Wylker
Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:40:00 -
[14]
Good topic Drokar.
Someone has already hit upon a key concept in honor, which is that it is personal, and expecting your opponent to live up to your concept of honor cheapens it.
On the flip side, it is always interesting to debate when something stops being a game mechanic and starts being an exploit. We often try to draw a correllary to real life, because that is where our experience lies. Obviously this is a game, and is not real life, but we need to do it so we have a basis for comparison. Take the D2 titan for example. Now obviously you don't log off in real life. But what if an army moved a battallion of tanks, or an ICBM launcher to a remote area and left it unprotected? It is within reason that a spy would report the location of said weapon system and that the enemy could destroy it.
Now, you can ask if this is honorable or not, but the bottom line is that the enemy has removed a critical weapons system from the field. The question of if the tactic is valid or not is extremely tough to argue, as it is a system that anyone in the game can use/abuse.
I do not particularly want to address the logoff in a bubble scenario, as that is a blatantly BROKEN mechanic. While I won't call it an exploit, everyone knows it will get fixed eventually.
In conclusion, the best thing you can do is fly with honor, and associate with people who fly honorably. You may be doomed to destruction, like the samurai of old, but if you end up being able to look back and be proud, good for you.
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Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 14:57:18
Originally by: Cosmic Flame An aggroed pilot logs off and gets probed and killed.
Yeah that happens when an enemy have started his aggro timer, or by him self.
Why on earth would ccp let him off when it was a friendly?
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Sameth
Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:05:00 -
[16]
Honour?
Dear god who gives a flying ****. That concept has a definition that varies from person to person. No two people see it the same way and you cant enforce your views of what is "fair and honourable" on someone else.
While I tend to think the D2 titan kill was pretty lame, it was however very clever, there is no denying that. Currently to date no one has actually fought a titan and won, all titan deaths have been unmanned or in the case of LV, half built.
If you really want to whine about this stuff then at least to it in a logical fashion, campaign for gameplay changes or whatever, but dont cry about something not being honourable because there is no such thing. Hard facts are all that will really help you, not snivelly nosed roleplaying sentiments.
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Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:05:00 -
[17]
At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:09:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Asariasha on 17/02/2007 17:07:36 <<<just my own opinion>>>
Quote: Exploits
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.
What's exploit? by CCP.
1) aggression timer was introduced to prevent players to log off a current fight into safety. 2) recent titan kill has shown that BoBlead had planned to use this game mechanic 3) large scale battles demand the players to turn off effects meaning you are not able to monitor if you get hit by anything 4) titans are extremely inert meaning you can not monitor the warp after your log off. 5) of course other players could monitor your logoff, but players should never be forced to run 2accounts to fly a ship.
Concerning these points, the recent titan kill was a clear and planned exploit which requests CCP to interfere by reimbursement and an additional punishment for the exploit-performing party.
Im really excited if CCP will obey their own EULA.
Greets Asa
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Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:12:00 -
[19]
Your arguement fails because the purpose of aggro timers isnt "to prevent people running from a fight" its "to keep ships that have been aggroed in space for 15 minutes".
Else how do you explain being able to flag yourself by shooting at cans, your own drones, being webbed by a corpmate when in a freighter etc.
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Trivas
ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:43:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Trivas on 17/02/2007 17:44:02 Lots of intersting Comments here. Let me preface what I am about to say by saying that I dont think that it was a cheat or exploit or anything else of the sort (or even morally wrong, we'd all do what it takes to win). But people need to relise that EVE IS A GAME! When I want to return to the real world, I want EVE to stop existing when I hit ctrl-q. If this was a real war in real life I would not have to log off. People seem to forget this. The problem is how the game mechaincs work when you log off. Since Titans cannot dock there is no safe place to store them.
Since I dont like to complain and not offer a sugestion perhaps this will help. Say a new log off system was in place. Using this system when a player logs off in space his ship remains for 1 min and can be warp scrambled and bubbled durring that time. ONLY warp scrambing or bubbleing would keep him there. If you're gatecamping and a guy logs and you cannot warp scrable him in that time you deserve to lose the kill. However this prevents logging at a starbase from being dangrous as it should never be dangrous to log off at a base!
Just my two cents...My opinion is my own and not that of my alliance or corp.
EDIT: forgot to metion, if you don't think that EVE comes infront of Real life (which I'm sure 99% of those who play believe) then you should have a problem with the way aggro is handled atm. Its not just this titan kill, but hundreds or even thousands of other kills from people logging at starbases.
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Xelphior
Caldari Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:58:00 -
[21]
eve was intended to be like life, and tbh its a good representation.
you can scam/cheat/doublecross/spy and kill
Life isnt Fair, in Real War you dont hold onto your morals, its them or you, and its the same in eve
you see an oppurtunity to get the advantage you take it, same as RL.
Moral of the Story.
eve isnt fair, eve dont promote fairness, but neither does life.
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NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 18:18:00 -
[22]
Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 18:16:13
Originally by: Asariasha Edited by: Asariasha on 17/02/2007 17:07:36 <<<just my own opinion>>>
Quote: Exploits
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.
What's exploit? by CCP.
1) aggression timer was introduced to prevent players to log off a current fight into safety. 2) recent titan kill has shown that BoBlead had planned to use this game mechanic 3) large scale battles demand the players to turn off effects meaning you are not able to monitor if you get hit by anything 4) titans are extremely inert meaning you can not monitor the warp after your log off. 5) of course other players could monitor your logoff, but players should never be forced to run 2accounts to fly a ship.
Concerning these points, the recent titan kill was a clear and planned exploit which requests CCP to interfere by reimbursement and an additional punishment for the exploit-performing party.
Im really excited if CCP will obey their own EULA.
Greets Asa
Yup, if the peoples here can't see that we have right here, then i don't know what their IQ is, but i believe it may be very low
I really don't know why peoples can't read the EULA at all, it's not hard to read it, and the EULA is easy to understand
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 18:39:00 -
[23]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477648
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NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 19:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Edde Bebbi http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477648
Hehehehe, so your still saying that the post over you are not true?, if yes, then why is it from the EULA?. CCP can't say another things that the EULA is saying, because it's their own rules. So please STFU noob.
More excuses please Edde Bebbi?
Just post like 1000 more excuses, because i love to see how much you lub♥♥♥♥BoC♥♥♥♥
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
Lori Carlyle
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.02.17 19:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Asariasha Edited by: Asariasha on 17/02/2007 17:07:36 <<<just my own opinion>>>
Quote: Exploits
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.
What's exploit? by CCP.
1) aggression timer was introduced to prevent players to log off a current fight into safety. 2) recent titan kill has shown that BoBlead had planned to use this game mechanic 3) large scale battles demand the players to turn off effects meaning you are not able to monitor if you get hit by anything 4) titans are extremely inert meaning you can not monitor the warp after your log off. 5) of course other players could monitor your logoff, but players should never be forced to run 2accounts to fly a ship.
Concerning these points, the recent titan kill was a clear and planned exploit which requests CCP to interfere by reimbursement and an additional punishment for the exploit-performing party.
Im really excited if CCP will obey their own EULA.
Greets Asa
Regards to (3) Correct me if i'm wrong but where does it say CCP demands you to turn off the visual effects ? yes it saves us some lag however it's a personal choice. ------------------------------------------ Hong Fire Will I Ever Forget To Remember..?
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Xeliya
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.02.17 19:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Xeliya on 17/02/2007 19:20:11
Originally by: Asariasha
Quote: Exploits
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.
I bolded a part of it, he could have went to a deep safe alone not in gang sat cloaked then logged after 15, or he could have been INSIDE the POS shields. He could have prevented it if he were careful. ----------
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:26:00 -
[27]
To Cosmic Flame, AKA DICE Alt. It's evident now that Blob of Brothers are subpar pvpers. The only way you clowns get ahead is by gaming the game. The fact is, it's the only way you will ever kill the Titan, because BloB don't have the skills or motivation to do so under normal combat conditions. _________________________________________________________ BoB caught cheating again. |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:36:00 -
[28]
@Edde: please read carefully the DEVblogs. In one of them it is exactly told that the system was implemented to prevent players of logging off while being in a fight.
@Xeliya: Excuse me, but how are you supposed to prevent an aggression on your own POS? POS use to shoot at every incoming hostile ship. Of course you may say:"But spies are allowed..." At least they are not prohibited, but in that special event a hostile player logged in a spy to abuse a game mechanic in the purpose of destroying a vessel that under normal circumstances would not have been killed.
And exactly this is why it was a planned exploit by BoB leadership.
Greets Asa
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Wylker
Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Voculus To Cosmic Flame, AKA DICE Alt. It's evident now that Blob of Brothers are subpar pvpers. The only way you clowns get ahead is by gaming the game. The fact is, it's the only way you will ever kill the Titan, because BloB don't have the skills or motivation to do so under normal combat conditions.
LOL@U
Wether you like BoB or not, this post is just ignorant flame bait. You should stfu and go help D2.
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Soryn Kael
The Sanctum
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:39:00 -
[30]
Eve is the new Asheron's Call...
Exploit early, exploit often!
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BoBoBich
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Drokar Gazer
Aggro Timer Abuse The log off Mass Log in
Just an observation. Why you make a such nice and shiny post after an aggro was used against titan and didn't make that when houndreds of pilots used seconds tactics on daily basis for YEARS? How is that biased? Can you be objective? I beleive not.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: BoBoBich
Originally by: Drokar Gazer
Aggro Timer Abuse The log off Mass Log in
Just an observation. Why you make a such nice and shiny post after an aggro was used against titan and didn't make that when houndreds of pilots used seconds tactics on daily basis for YEARS? How is that biased? Can you be objective? I beleive not.
Just an observation from my side. WHY THE **** AREN'T THE MODS DELETING POSTS BY NOOBCORP ALTS WHEN ITS POSTING IN FAVOUR OF BOB???
-------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
mr passie
Minmatar Purgatorial Janitors Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 20:53:00 -
[33]
I never thought to say this about a tri post, but I completely agree. (no flamebait)
I think it sucks to log off in combat but even more to kill a titan (the supposedly unkillable) this way. I do not have a solution, but I would hate to see people stop flying titans because they are exploits waiting to be happening.
I'd never use these tactics even it would cost my last bit of isk. Even if I got a killmail like that how would I ever be proud of my achievment?
I'm a reversed paranoid schizophrenic. I have voices in my head I just think I don't hear them! |
Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.17 21:05:00 -
[34]
Quote: Even if I got a killmail like that how would I ever be proud of my achievment?
Pride has nothing to do with it. It's all about winning at any cost, no matter how bad you have to cheat to do it. _________________________________________________________ BoB caught cheating again. |
SSgt Sniper
Gallente In Excess Enterprises Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 21:24:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Trivas Edited by: Trivas on 17/02/2007 17:44:02 People seem to forget this. The problem is how the game mechaincs work when you log off. Since Titans cannot dock there is no safe place to store them.
This is the primary problem I have with how BoB chooses to shoot titans, tbh. If they could dock with a deathstar or in a station, BoB wouldn't have a titan kill at all. ---------
Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances.
However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first. |
Cassandra Bloom
Diamonds inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 21:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: pershphanie I know. Why don't we all stand in a line and someone type "fire" in local. Then who ever has the best mods and most SP wins.
Sounds exciting. Go play counterstrike.
Don't confuse creative tactics with poor gameplay.
Ya same ol' stupid comments and derrail from the point. I'm a 2004 pilot maxed out in gallente battleship warfare, I'm pretty sure that if you bring a fancy astarte to my domi you're dead meat even if i am a technical noob to you.
To answer to you derrailed reply: this is not how it works! Different shiptypes and specialization nulify the more SP or modules you have, so I don't care how many turret/missle or mining skills you have I will still kill you and your ship dude. Now shutup and try to contribute to the thread.
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ER0X
Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.02.18 00:25:00 -
[37]
Wait for it ,.,., Soft Eject ,.,., ahhh!
A momment of sanity in a game gone mad
Let me state for the record I am in no way pointing fingers at any individual, corp or alliance in particular nor am I inferring that any pilots logged off deliberately to avoid destruction.
You state in your opening post Drokar that there are many tactics being used in todays Eve that are not in keeping with your idea of chivalry. I'm not a fan of many of these tactics either. However to be honest this comes as no surprise to me whatsoever. It could be argued that these tactics have evolved as the game has, respectively. Daon Khan makes some nice observations, reminders, on the psychology behind EvE in his posts in the thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477672 The concepts Daon highlights are more than likely the main reasons CCP has not interviened.
To reiterate the current state of play, if I have the gist of your argument, is; that battle tactics employed by certain individuals / corps / alliances are removing competitiveness from the game.
e.g.
Mass logoff / logon to catch an unsuspecting fleet moving through a system.
Filling a node to critical levels, with players, while assaulting a POSition. The result being node failure, which on restart favours the fleet jumping into the system and not the fleet defending it.
Likewise other less chivalrous, in your opinion, tactics are also being used.
The use of Sleepers to gain an unnatural advantage of agression timers. Black ops specialists, pinpointing enemy positions calling in Counter strike at a momments notice.
Might I suggest that the later example could be percieved as a counter to the former and that these types of tactics are progressing on a natural evolutionary time line in keeping with the nature of the game in which we find ourselves playing. We as players have a choice to make. One choice being - Quit.
We can hit the forums and complain about it hoping the developers take notice of our concerns and change the nature of the game to be one with a more consensualy oriented combat model removing the opportunity of surprise attacks completely.
OR
We can be observant remain quiet, objective and see it played out till a natural conclusion has been drawn. To finish, and im paraphrasing here ' improvise, adapt, overcome, take a handful of young fire pi$$ers, excersise some personal initiative and kick some a$$ '.
[green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details plea |
Stickey Crak
Caldari Swedish Gimp Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.18 03:21:00 -
[38]
to the OP and the crying club:
well..i figure the game is here to be played and enjoyed. if you can't do that than i sencerely hope noone is holding a gun to your head. nothing is perfect in this world, as long as people are involved, and as soon as u've realised that you'll be a happer person.
Whining won't help you, suggestions might.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.18 04:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Xelphior eve was intended to be like life, and tbh its a good representation.
you can scam/cheat/doublecross/spy and kill
Life isnt Fair, in Real War you dont hold onto your morals, its them or you, and its the same in eve
you see an oppurtunity to get the advantage you take it, same as RL.
Moral of the Story.
eve isnt fair, eve dont promote fairness, but neither does life.
Uhm, NO. In fact, That is a gross insult to the most storied, and succesful military organizations in Earth's history. Unit pride and a sense of honor and duty have carried many an organization far more than cheating ever has. By cheating IRL I mean crossing the line of what is considerable honble and decent.
A case in point, even though there were standing orders from ****** himself, and there were some casses where his orders were carried out, most U-boat Captains never did execute shipwreck survivors. They also took 90% losses throughout WWII, mostley due to decisions made over them by ******, and they mantained a credible and cohesive threat to the allies until the bitter end. No other military organization in modern history has ever come close to matching that, especialy since they almost won the war for Germany. Millions of Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen from many countries roled over in there grave when you made that statement.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
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Nastratu
Minmatar Serefon Creatin
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Posted - 2007.02.18 05:59:00 -
[40]
Originally by: BoBoBich
Originally by: Drokar Gazer
Aggro Timer Abuse The log off Mass Log in
Just an observation. Why you make a such nice and shiny post after an aggro was used against titan and didn't make that when houndreds of pilots used seconds tactics on daily basis for YEARS? How is that biased? Can you be objective? I beleive not.
QFT
Also, instead of relying on "honor" of pilots and explaining to players in EVE how it is lame and how it is a cheatxploit to be doing this or that, why don't you spend you efforts on coming up with ways to curb such behavior in EVE using game mechanics, modifying the game so it becomes no longer beneficial or possible? You can't rely on anybody's honor because some people will place ends above the means, so you can't just post here on the forum and expect them to listen. And all of you who are blaming CCP for allowing Titans to be lost in such "dishonorable" ways, may be you should have thought about it and started talking before you invested 150 bil and countless hours and so much effort into building such ships.
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Marcus Quo
Axe Gang
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Posted - 2007.02.18 09:53:00 -
[41]
So far I see a lot of crap in this thread about "honor" and "real warfare" not being fair. Guess what, none of this crap matters.
Here's what does matter: EvE is a game, it's designed to be fun. If anyone thinks that shooting at a logged off ship is enjoyable, they need to play a single player game on easy difficulty, not an MMO. I gotta give BoB props for doing what they did and thinking outside the box, but if you ask them if they would have prefered to kill the Erebus in a pitched battle and gotten to see it go down with guns blazing while a D2 cap fleet made an attempt to save it, I can guarentee they'll all say yes.
The real problem is that the game currently encourages fights to happen when one of the pilots involved is offline. You can destroy your oppenent without risking your own ships, clearly everyone who can is going to do this. This does NOT make for good gameplay. It's boring to shoot at a stationary ship, and it sucks ass when it happens to the pilot, no one has any fun.
What can change? The aggro timer is fairly stupid, I'm sure there's other ways around it. Maybe just getting rid of the emergency warp off so you can safely log out at friendly POSs, would also keep people from logging in bubbles. Other option is to make it easier to kill titans/moms with traditional means, so that people to have to resort to killing them while logged out.
The point is combat should be fun. Real war sucks ass, let's not try to emulate it in-game.
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Goldstriker
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Posted - 2007.02.18 10:35:00 -
[42]
Nice topic and reading, and almost no flame
So most of you thinks its bad to use exploits but every1 needs to use it becouse otherwise you dont win the big war. BOB use the agrotimer to kill a Titan becouse thats the only way to kill it atm it seems. Goon RA do the blob to crash nods so the deffenders cant log in just to be sure they win without hae losses. Yepp every1 thinks its bad to use exploits, it is lame to kill a Titan like that its lame to kill POS with nodcrash and so on, but it seems to be the only way atm and to win whith no heavy losses.
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Steel Rat
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.18 11:55:00 -
[43]
To the OP: Interesting post even if your logic is somewhat flawed with regards to the Agro timer. Can you not see Agro timer is abused because so many people in Eve use the logoff trick to avoid combat. Agro timer is the only thing that even comes close to keeping some people honest when they mouth off about wtfpwning people.
As I said in another post recently, Eve is a game where you never have to lose anything. If you are careful and patient and use the logoff tricks you are never forced to put your assets at risk. The Titan is a prime example of something that people try very hard to not lose. Its massive weapon firing never puts you at risk, if your careful, you never have to put it in jeopardy. So you can sit back, beat your chest and laugh at them when they try to get you. If the odds aren't in your favor, logoff and its safe.
If everyone wants to see the Epic titan battle, then I think you need to talk to the pilots flying them, not the people who use in game mechanics to engage them. Because frankly, none of them have engaged willing and probably never would unless FORCED to, as has been shown by both the D2 and ASCN kills. There to much time, labor and isk tied up in them for most people to risk in a true battle.
The bigger problem of exploiting the game mechanics in Eve is based on 2 things. Killmails and Cost to build. Yes for alot of us veterans, cost is minimal, but for many people that play eve, whether it be greed or true lack of isk, they don't want to NPC/MINE/etc to make isk. Many would prefer the Quake or CS or UT model where you die, poof, back into a new body with a gun and go headhunting again. For some people, getting that uber ship/clone/implants is alot of time and effort. Because of that, when they see themselves screwed, like hitting a bubble camp, they log. Secondly, I think killmails and a k/l ratio has skewed the game for the more epeen crowd. Those people play to look better than everyone else and prefer to log than add to their death ratio.
But I think you miss another group. The group that builds the nanophoons, the mwd ravens of the past, the vaga's, etc. They are also exploiting game mechanics with the same intention of not being caught. You can also throw in the login traps as part of this. But the whole intention is not to have a fight. The intention is to gank/grief the enemy. And when they get setup or cornered by a huge fleet, they log. The BE ravens of the past were part of this as well and a good example of someone using a very effect setup that for the most part, was not to induce a fight, but to gank/grief. The only effective way was to bait and trap these guys and exploit the game mechanics in your favor.
I am not saying any of this is "wrong" or "right". I am simply stating this is the life of Eve today. I have always said I preferred the old days of Eve and get laughed at and poo poo'd. I don't miss the old days of Eve for the game, I miss it for the pilots. People were more eager to fight, period. It was a hell of alot more enjoyable to PvP in the first year of Eve than I find it to be today. Today, everyone is more interested in winning every battle at all costs. They don't play for the battle and the thrill, win or lose. Maybe theres more at stake now, with the POSs and Outposts, but whatever it is, its really taken something out of Eve for me.
I honestly don't know if CCP can make any changes to the game to change how people play. You could probably give away free, fully fitted Navy Apoc/Mega/your choice here, everytime someone dies and you would still have people not fight. But I hope CCP continues to try and who knows, they might stumble on something to make PvP great again. Cause frankly right now, with the lag added in as well, its not at its best.
Steel Rat CEO DDC
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MacDuncan
Minmatar Unknown Society
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Steel Rat I am not saying any of this is "wrong" or "right". I am simply stating this is the life of Eve today. I have always said I preferred the old days of Eve and get laughed at and poo poo'd. I don't miss the old days of Eve for the game, I miss it for the pilots. People were more eager to fight, period. It was a hell of alot more enjoyable to PvP in the first year of Eve than I find it to be today. Today, everyone is more interested in winning every battle at all costs. They don't play for the battle and the thrill, win or lose. Maybe theres more at stake now, with the POSs and Outposts, but whatever it is, its really taken something out of Eve for me.
Well written, even if i missed the early stages of EvE (sadly). --
Might As well Train Another Race |
Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:14:00 -
[45]
may as well just quote myself from another thread on the same topic:
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Lori Carlyle Personaly I don't think any alliance would not do the same if there chance came up.
EVE is a game. Unlike in real-world wars, the losses and victories are not measured in human lives or livelihoods, but in honour and prestige. in true war, the underhanded, sneaky tactics are the ones that save lives and bring about the most efficient victories with the minimum of death and suffering. That said, "Victory at any cost" is a mantra wholly at odds with the spirit of any game. When removed from the framework of true consequence - of death and territory - in-game wars should in theory become defined by honour and fair play.
What we are instead seeing happen is people bringing the real world thinking of "We need to win, so we will stop at nothing to attain victory" into the game, thereby tainting it.
This game is still populated by people who hold to the belief - whether consciously or subconsciously - that the fights and wars in this game should be fought with honour and unflinching respect for the enemy. The reason there is so much outcry over the destruction of this titan, I think, is because it was characterized by underhanded back-alley tactics and a total disregard for the spirit of fair play.
In the real world, such a kill would be considered the skillful culmination of a well-worked plan. Nobody is denying that this titan kill took skill, daring, patience and precision to pull off - what's causing upset is the fact that it flies in the face of the spirit of the game.
Nobody remembers the man who snuck up to the sleeping dragon and shot it in the head with a ballista. They remember the knight who went toe-to-toe with it while it was awake and bested it in a fair fight. Why? the latter is a more honourable kill, an epic victory. The former is disrespectful to the whole concept of dragon-slaying. And Titans are the Dragons of EVE.
So yes, given a choice between assassinating a Titan behind the lines as happened here, or letting it live on, I'd definitely pass up the opportunity... and come back later to take it on in a straight fight.
Even if this is a thread about the way people are playing the game rather than specifically being about the D2 Titan, the point still stands. This is a game. In-game victories should be about skill, competence, and honour. More and more people are taking these wars seriously enough that the spirit of the game suffers.
It's sad, but it's always the loud and unpleasant types who stand out from the crowd. The majority of the EVE community, I believe, are still a bunch of straight-up folks who would prefer to lose a straight fight, than "win" and be accused of cheating. And the way to avoid the latter is to always stand tall, stare your enemy in the camera drone, and fight it out, hard. ***
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darth solo
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:22:00 -
[46]
EVE was full of this sort of thing at the start, i lost so many ships to bugs like the dampener bug which made u CTD'd.. ppl knew about it and used it. like the lag out can exploit where u didnt even load and found urself dead. like i keep saying eve is a game where its win at all costs regardless of what it does to the game. its very sad.
EVE has done a full circle, from the early days of bug exploiting to where it is the now, the bit inbetween was much better.
Im sure many of our days are numbered.
d solo. celes apoc new kilboard |
Engelious Angelion
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:29:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Drokar Gazer While i am sure I will get flamed for this from the immatures out there, it has to be said. The state of EVE is unfortunately, not good. Devs caught cheating doesnt help but i think that can happen anywhere, so this is not really about that.
Its about pvp tactics. Its about honor in a fight. Its about fighting for your space, or fighting for someone elses space. When you die. You are supposed to STFU. You acknowledge a good fight or you dont, but thats it. Win or lose. That has been the rule of consensus in EVE since day 1. But there are other rules.
Tactics that occur in eve everday that are not true spaceship tactics, they are game mechanics. Using game mechanics to win a fight which was never intended by the devs, but impossible as yet to find alternatives it seems, is the worst type of gameplay and without honor.
Aggro Timer Abuse For what takes billions upon billions of isk and time and team work to create, one persons stupidity (i'll admit) while flying the most expensive ship in EVE, he loses it all. Twice. (different pilots losing their titans). I admit they were really paying attention. Why do you log off in a titan with ANYONE in the system? Even if its a corp/alliance mate?
That being said.. it does not absolve the pilots who used game mechanics to destroy the titans in question (both occurances by BoB pilots). Now there is nothing Devs can do about this issue unless they change how loggin off occurs (such as 30 second loggoff rule like in other games) but they havent for whatever reasons. Still, it is upon our honor that pilots do not use game mechanics to win a battle (ie shuttles with thousands of bookmarks surrounding a POS) Why is this acceptable. Did they use teamwork to accomplish the feat? Yes, but thats not theh issue. They cheated. While its possible to do ingame, its still cheating, because you are using mechanics that have nothing to do with honor. You did not 'bring it' to D2, you used an aggro timer, again.
This is absurd. Perhaps the game is going downhill. Perhaps the devs dont care that all that work to produce these titans were lost not because they died in a straight up fight, but because another team decided to cheat by using game mechanics.
How utterly pathetic (yes i know this will be locked but i dont give a rats right now).
The log off Somehow, this is still being used to avoid dying. This is without honor. If you are flying your ship (that you should be prepared to lose if your flying it) and you get caught at a gate camp bubble.. well duh.. ur dead. And you know what.. its your fault for not flying a scout. Game mechanics to save your ship. How pathetic.
Mass Log in Since the early days of the game, this has been used, and still is being used. The whole "well me and my friends who all know each other in real life decided to play eve at the same time, all 150 of us" .. cough Bull****nit. You are using game mechanics to win at EVE and you have no honor, and are cheating. Perhaps Devs allow because they have no fix for it and cannot prove, but you as a pilot know just because the game allows it, it is using game mechanics to win.
The state of EVE is bad, and its not the game.. its the players.
SIGND _______________________________________________
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Stickey Crak
Caldari Swedish Gimp Squad
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:32:00 -
[48]
can you please tell me what honor in a online game is? i've never understood this.. ppl expect others to act honorable in a place where everyone is faceless, no RL contact no nothing.. just bits and pixles. You'll get more "honor" from a stranger on a street than you ever get from online character. For you who are crying honor this honor that, get a grip EvE isn't real nor is honor. And as i understand it, "honor" for you ppl would be where... Well tbh i have no idea what you mean by honor.
Its not honorable to kill a titan while aggroed and logged? Anyone here who WOULDN'T do the same thing if the opportunity came along? Whoever says no is a pure liar and a hipocrit.
Bah theres no point in this. As i said before. You'll never get "honor" as long as people are involved. If you want "honor" while killing someone go kill NPCs. They'll fight on you terms
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Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:37:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Stitcher on 18/02/2007 12:34:38
Originally by: Stickey Crak can you please tell me what honor in a online game is? i've never understood this.. ppl expect others to act honorable in a place where everyone is faceless, no RL contact no nothing.. just bits and pixles. You'll get more "honor" from a stranger on a street than you ever get from online character. For you who are crying honor this honor that, get a grip EvE isn't real nor is honor. And as i understand it, "honor" for you ppl would be where... Well tbh i have no idea what you mean by honor.
Reputation, respect. People knowing you're as good as your word.
In a situation where you are almost totally anonymous and faceless, these qualities are infinitely more valuable than they are in real life, because people can't read your expression or body language to judge your sincerity.
Honour means the same thing in a game as it does in real life... but I believe that it is worth much more.
Quote: Its not honorable to kill a titan while aggroed and logged? Anyone here who WOULDN'T do the same thing if the opportunity came along? Whoever says no is a pure liar and a hipocrit.
I wouldn't. I'd take the opportunity to fight and try and kill one, sure. But I wouldn't do it by stealthily aggroing it and then ganking it while the pilot is logged off.
Oh, and I don't think you have the meaning of "hypocrite" down correctly. It means "to say one thing and do another". You can call me a hypocrite if I ever go gank a titan that can't fight back. Until then, the word doesn't apply.
Quote: Bah theres no point in this. As i said before. You'll never get "honor" as long as people are involved. If you want "honor" while killing someone go kill NPCs. They'll fight on you terms
Nobody is legally allowed to be this cynical before the age of sixty-three. ***
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Doragee
Minmatar Unknown Society
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Posted - 2007.02.18 12:37:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Stickey Crak Well tbh i have no idea what you mean by honor.
Well....seems exactly THAT's the point... --
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Liu Kaskakka
PAK
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Posted - 2007.02.18 13:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Drokar Gazer Now there is nothing Devs can do about this issue unless they change how loggin off occurs (such as 30 second loggoff rule like in other games) but they havent for whatever reasons.
And how are you going to ever kill a titan if it vanishes after 30 secs from logging off? Oh, yeah, people (other than bob) play this game fair and they would not log off?
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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gaz widdow
Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 14:18:00 -
[52]
Good post: although slightly concerned about the recient dev thing, it didnt interfere with my game play in the slightest.
What Im more concerned about is the ultimate Doomsday, (node crashing) to gain a stratigic advantage which effects hundreds if not thousands of players in time spent training skills and building to be sat looking at a logon screen whist what they have achived is being ripped apart
Noone allience ingame can fight that abuse and I hope CCP get to grips with it before its used more common place
I dont blame anyone party but titans and poss warfare dont help. nor do I have the answer.
But I feel its going to be the straw that broke the camels back and will kill the game unless CCP do something real quick with the esculation of the 0.0 wars.
Any player who has spent time training and building to not be able to use iether must be asking them selfs some serious questions right now if it was even worth the effort.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 14:47:00 -
[53]
"Life is about memories the more the better" (There's a slightly x rated version so fill it in your own head).
If I personally can say, I helped my alliance as much as I could with my final breathe in a way that I can still a) look in the mirror and b) have my alliance mates still speak to me, then I'll be a happy guy with a lot of memories.
If I need to cheat or come under the command of a cheater, I'd feel about two inches tall and a tad dirty.
As the character represents myself in game (I'm not a great roleplayer), I have to be true to myself in all my actions. My own sense of morality expects this of me.
There are no real lives that are going to be lost through Eve, apart from a few extra grey hairs from all the flames, it's not as if any of us will have real blood on their hands, so people, let's have a true measure of ability with tactics, modules, ships and FC orders before thinking about the easiest way of taking down expensive and hard targets.
I suppose, when Eve Online has had it's final server turned off, there will be those players that can say they did everything in order to win and those that will have to say, I thought of every exploit and cheap tactic to win.
I know which camp I want to be a part of. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers! |
Boliknar
The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 15:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Cosmic Flame Using a spy to aggro a careless pilot who thinks that just because he is alone in the system and only a "friendly" pilot aggroed him he is safe, and then killing him by jumping in a fleet is in no way cheating as you put it. This type of ganking happens every day all over EVE. An aggroed pilot logs off and gets probed and killed. In this case it was careful planning from BoB and poor judgement and carelessness by the D2 pilot.
You talk about "fair" fighting. There is none anywhere in any game or RL for that matter. The victor is always the side with some advantage: tactical, firepower, numbers, something that can make the outcome favorable. "Spying" is within game rules, friendly fire is within game rules and probing down a ship with aggro is within game rules. Hence it is not cheating.
Fair play you say? Talking about something other than pvp... Trust is not the most rich group of T2 production corps by "playing fair". They are probably the biggest cartel in this game. They have ripped off many people for much longer than BoB has been around. They don't make "fair" prices, and have huge profits. They gather up bpo's to have control over the market. There's nothing "fair" about that, ooo but wait..... lemme guess, that doesn't count right? It's all fair when it suits you, but not all fair it doesn't. Right...
Biased views suck.
I for one am glad i still care about honor and essesntial fairness. I could never take advantage of another players real life situation just so i could somehow feel better about myself. But I guess there are some in Eve not saddled with my (as in me the player's) morals and ethics. I have been a game player for a real long time in a lot of different formats. What was done is no different that the sad little role player who needs to pencil whip his character into a god on paper in order to have some sense of self worth. I think the saddest part is those who have a sense of gamesmanship and honor are quickly becoming the minority in this game and its really sad.
so until such time as the e-peeners take over the game entirely I will still be playing trying to win but I will never give up part of who I am or what I believe to win a computer game. That may be why I will never win some will say...might be true but at least I am still me.
If you must become what you fight in order to beat it... then is there really any point in fighting?
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Boliknar
The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: mr passie I never thought to say this about a tri post, but I completely agree. (no flamebait)
I think it sucks to log off in combat but even more to kill a titan (the supposedly unkillable) this way. I do not have a solution, but I would hate to see people stop flying titans because they are exploits waiting to be happening.
I'd never use these tactics even it would cost my last bit of isk. Even if I got a killmail like that how would I ever be proud of my achievment?
See thats where your misguided the people using these tactics dont really care about perceptions or honor or pride really all they care about is showing off there e-peen and trying to make themsleves feel better. Whereas you and I would never take pride in such a kill these people get congratulated on one such kill by a CCP rep in local. So its really no wonder the game has gone down this road.
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Wulfgard
Minmatar Lynx Frontier Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:37:00 -
[56]
CCP, you better start hiring some people with a little more professionalism. Congratulating an alliance for killing a player who wasn't even ONLINE
Is that what you had in mind when you designed that superb game? Clearly, by not fixing these borked codes, you are encouraging your player base to resort to such underhanded tactics. Contrary to what most of the posters in these forums think, your average subscriber doesn't wish to play in a community who prides itself in playing dirty, using lies and deceit to obtain a questionable victory.
Who wants victory without glory... in a game?
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Wolf Fang
Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:49:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cosmic Flame
Fair play you say? Talking about something other than pvp... Trust is not the most rich group of T2 production corps by "playing fair". They are probably the biggest cartel in this game. They have ripped off many people for much longer than BoB has been around. They don't make "fair" prices, and have huge profits. They gather up bpo's to have control over the market. There's nothing "fair" about that, ooo but wait..... lemme guess, that doesn't count right? It's all fair when it suits you, but not all fair it doesn't. Right...
Biased views suck.
Agreed Stop with the inflation crap and mabey people wont have to resort to dirty fighting because a ship that cost them 300mil+ only pays back 50mil ===============================================
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU DYING FOR YOUR CORP..... IT'S ABOUT MAKING YOUR ENEMIES DIE FOR THEIRS. |
Drokar Gazer
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:51:00 -
[58]
I think in the end this post was about me deciding whether or not this game was worth playing anymore. NOt because of the titan.. again.. its not mine and i dont really care. Its about how alliances/corps go about the way they do battle.
CEO's have the ability to 'choose' how they direct their members to act. If honor among pilots is so dead in this game.. then it ceases to be a game, and now is just a grief fest.
What has become of my beloved EVE is no more than a child's game with everyone fighting over who has the largets e-peen rather than attempting to earn respect by bringing it in battle and staying a sport whether you win or lose.
Just because this is a game does not negate this. Some of you say, well 'what is honor', and 'honor has no place in EVE', well i say why? When a game has become so serious to so many that they would rather cheat, yes CHEAT, using game mechanics.. game mechancs is not winning.. its using facilities of the game that were not intended to but do provide for an outcome or event that, whos purpose was not intended. Those who defend the actions of these players who 'choose' to be the lessor of honorable, and decide to out maneuveur their opponents by using such horrid tactics rather than meeting on the battlefield.
Whether its a login tactic, logging out to save your ship, manipulating the nodes to cause lag on purpose, in any way shape or form using anything except your ship, your wits, and tactics that do not depend on game mechanics to win... the traits of what it is to be human, or scoundrel... you make these choices everyday.. and for those who cannot comprehend honor.. well then there is a large dividing gap between us.
I will move on and hope for better days in EVE. Thank you to those who provided criticism to my post, good or bad, the flames, well you just show your nature. I am not mad even if i sound so but i have played this game for 3 years, and it is time to step back and watch this great game slide into chaos. Too many new players , i would bet younger players from other games such as WoW, etc.. this game didnt need you.. we were fine as we were. You came and you ruined our game.
Congrats. Your e=peen is larger.. you win. I'm out.
Been a great ride these 3 years. Thanks for the memories.
________________________________________ Drokar Gazer
Not the sig your looking for. Move along.
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Mordrake
MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.02.18 21:52:00 -
[59]
I truely hope that players who have the moral fiber to see these underhanded tactics being used for what they are do not decide to leave the game.
Situations like this will test the resolve of any player to stick to the high road and not have a good overall effect on the "Feel" of EVE.
Personally I want the people who see the wrong in this to stay the course and be there by my side or to stand against me at some point in the future.
The day I stand with a handfull and face the throng of L33t D0od$ who will never face battle with Honor is the day I quit EVE.
"Arte et Marte" |
w0rmy
Intensive CareBearz
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Posted - 2007.02.18 21:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mordrake I truely hope that players who have the moral fiber to see these underhanded tactics being used for what they are do not decide to leave the game.
Considering the number of "OMG A titan, IM MY TROUSERS!!!" threads of late, I'm not too sure the eve community has the maturity or moral fiber to do anything but find themselves other underhanded tactics to use.
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Tarphon
Caldari MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.02.18 22:55:00 -
[61]
I agree with the OP
weak pvp from the "pvp alliance"
Would somebody clear out these stupid bob alt post... or are we going to see another rule change, FFS
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.19 01:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Stickey Crak can you please tell me what honor in a online game is? i've never understood this.. ppl expect others to act honorable in a place where everyone is faceless, no RL contact no nothing.. just bits and pixles. You'll get more "honor" from a stranger on a street than you ever get from online character. For you who are crying honor this honor that, get a grip EvE isn't real nor is honor. And as i understand it, "honor" for you ppl would be where... Well tbh i have no idea what you mean by honor.
Its not honorable to kill a titan while aggroed and logged? Anyone here who WOULDN'T do the same thing if the opportunity came along? Whoever says no is a pure liar and a hipocrit.
Bah theres no point in this. As i said before. You'll never get "honor" as long as people are involved. If you want "honor" while killing someone go kill NPCs. They'll fight on you terms
Anonymity is not an excuse for lack of honor, in fact it is the reason for it. Honor is not something that is judged when everyone is looking, but when no one is. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
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Boliknar
The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 06:25:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Boliknar on 19/02/2007 06:22:06
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Stickey Crak can you please tell me what honor in a online game is? i've never understood this.. ppl expect others to act honorable in a place where everyone is faceless, no RL contact no nothing.. just bits and pixles. You'll get more "honor" from a stranger on a street than you ever get from online character. For you who are crying honor this honor that, get a grip EvE isn't real nor is honor. And as i understand it, "honor" for you ppl would be where... Well tbh i have no idea what you mean by honor.
Its not honorable to kill a titan while aggroed and logged? Anyone here who WOULDN'T do the same thing if the opportunity came along? Whoever says no is a pure liar and a hipocrit.
Bah theres no point in this. As i said before. You'll never get "honor" as long as people are involved. If you want "honor" while killing someone go kill NPCs. They'll fight on you terms
Anonymity is not an excuse for lack of honor, in fact it is the reason for it. Honor is not something that is judged when everyone is looking, but when no one is.
I am not a liar nor am I a hypocrite. I am however a man who cares about how he plays a game. I dont play just to win at whatever the cost. This attitude is too prevelant in not only this game but society as a whole so i suppose I should not be surprised it has found its way here into this game. The people I play this game with would never knowingly use an opponents rl situation against him in order to what? win a computer game. Seems like a pretty low price for someones honor and dignity doesnt it. But hey its theirs they can sell it for whatever they want. My friends and myself will just keep ours a little longer...
Thanks
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Noshi
Amarr Formula-X
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Posted - 2007.02.19 06:38:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Viscount Hood What does fairness and honour have to do with war?
Find the best way of killing/demoralising your opponent and use it to the full.
This how wars are won, this is how BoB beat ASCN, it surely wasnt by might. It was forum abuse against ASCN leadership, demoralizing them and making RL threats in the form of evemails. BOB will smack you until you believe it. They have no honour. Nor should anyone else.
/noshi
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Chienka
The Tierijev Compact Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 10:00:00 -
[65]
Ahh the OP couldnt have put it any better. The state of play is shocking. BoB dont fight 1 on 1s very much, if at all. Just lame exploitation of game mechanics.
Spy: Perfectly legit by any standards
Spy + Mechanics Abuse: BoB might as well be drop BMbombs and shuttlebombs at every engagement, its not exactly below them.
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Cardassius
Seraphin Technologies S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.02.19 11:25:00 -
[66]
@exploit whiners
The tactic BoB used was to PREVENT the titan to use LOGOFSKI to save his ship.
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Siliya
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 12:43:00 -
[67]
stupid question .... but a RL friend of mine have talked about it and I just dont have the answer
with Both Titans being lost in the same way (which is what it sounds like) is it possible to park a Titan/Mothership behind a PoS Shield (since they are both presistant) and then Eject from the titan/MS THEN Log so as to assure the Ships remain Safe from that Agro bug... or does Ejecting from one of those have some other kind of issue attached
and if there is a Detriment then why not just stay logged in and on the ship behind a PoS Shield 23/7 ?
these may seem noob questions and they are a little ... they are just aimed at the End game rather than the late game
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Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.19 14:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Siliya stupid question .... but a RL friend of mine have talked about it and I just dont have the answer
with Both Titans being lost in the same way (which is what it sounds like) is it possible to park a Titan/Mothership behind a PoS Shield (since they are both presistant) and then Eject from the titan/MS THEN Log so as to assure the Ships remain Safe from that Agro bug... or does Ejecting from one of those have some other kind of issue attached
and if there is a Detriment then why not just stay logged in and on the ship behind a PoS Shield 23/7 ?
these may seem noob questions and they are a little ... they are just aimed at the End game rather than the late game
It's a security issue. I can't see anyone who actually owns a Titan leaving it floating in space unmanned. Anyone who could fly it (granted probably not many people) could hop in and steal it. And BoB has already shown that they can infiltrate pretty much any alliance.
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Belial02
Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.19 14:52:00 -
[69]
Last time i checked, Eve was only a game. Honor is a debatable concept IRL. Dont bring it in a pixel-destroying RPG, its just ridiculous.
Though, I admit some ppl are acting a lame way out there. The way D2 lost their titan was completelty crappy and i dont think Robert deserves any credit for that. But then standing up from your chair and do something else maybe a solution.
Ppl taking things that seriously make me wonder what else they got in life, its pretty sad tbh. In other words get a life.
Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...
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Azrael Bierce
Cult of Lemen
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Posted - 2007.02.19 17:05:00 -
[70]
The simple thing to do, actually, would be to have the aggro timer on the logout screen, even if they don't show it in space in 0.0. You hit escape, and where it would normally say 'quit game' it'll say 'Aggro Timer: 14:02, Quit?'
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Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 -
[71]
Can someone explain why we can't simply have a logoff timer on our screen? From my recollection it shows up in Empire -it's been awhile- so why can't it show up in 0.0? I like simple easy solutions when possilbe.
That BOB friends would claim these kills are a sign of skill is just sad. Yes, we all get it that you are allowed to use these tactics. It is not an exploit. Now move on and show the skill you supposedly have. If you must use cheap (IMO) tricks then do so. Just stop bragging about it.
Finally, it is really annoying to have the same people state that ctrl-q is an exploit but a spy triggering aggro is not. CCP can make whatever rulings they want and I will still play. For everyone else - either using game mechanics is an exploit or it is not.
Intellectual honesty or STFU.
I am not an Alt, I am ...really, really FUGLY! |
Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 -
[72]
Can someone explain why we can't simply have a logoff timer on our screen? From my recollection it shows up in Empire -it's been awhile- so why can't it show up in 0.0? I like simple easy solutions when possilbe.
That BOB friends would claim these kills are a sign of skill is just sad. Yes, we all get it that you are allowed to use these tactics. It is not an exploit. Now move on and show the skill you supposedly have. If you must use cheap (IMO) tricks then do so. Just stop bragging about it.
Finally, it is really annoying to have the same people state that ctrl-q is an exploit but a spy triggering aggro is not. CCP can make whatever rulings they want and I will still play. For everyone else - either using game mechanics is an exploit or it is not.
Intellectual honesty or STFU.
I am not an Alt, I am ...really, really FUGLY! |
Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 -
[73]
Can someone explain why we can't simply have a logoff timer on our screen? From my recollection it shows up in Empire -it's been awhile- so why can't it show up in 0.0? I like simple easy solutions when possilbe.
That BOB friends would claim these kills are a sign of skill is just sad. Yes, we all get it that you are allowed to use these tactics. It is not an exploit. Now move on and show the skill you supposedly have. If you must use cheap (IMO) tricks then do so. Just stop bragging about it.
Finally, it is really annoying to have the same people state that ctrl-q is an exploit but a spy triggering aggro is not. CCP can make whatever rulings they want and I will still play. For everyone else - either using game mechanics is an exploit or it is not.
Intellectual honesty or STFU.
I am not an Alt, I am ...really, really FUGLY! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.19 18:01:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Cardassius @exploit whiners
The tactic BoB used was to PREVENT the titan to use LOGOFSKI to save his ship.
? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.19 18:01:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Cardassius @exploit whiners
The tactic BoB used was to PREVENT the titan to use LOGOFSKI to save his ship.
? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
SPQRMocton
Minmatar Hand Of Bethke
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Posted - 2007.02.19 18:07:00 -
[76]
not gonna bother after all
If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday |
SPQRMocton
Minmatar Hand Of Bethke
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Posted - 2007.02.19 18:07:00 -
[77]
not gonna bother after all
If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday |
NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 18:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Cardassius @exploit whiners
The tactic BoB used was to PREVENT the titan to use LOGOFSKI to save his ship.
What the hell are you talking about?.
He had to log off because of rl issues.
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
Minigin
Caldari Zephyr Enterprises Inc. Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.19 21:59:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Cardassius @exploit whiners
The tactic BoB used was to PREVENT the titan to use LOGOFSKI to save his ship.
um no... im pretty sure they used it to avoid confronting a titan... i bet you that the next titan kill will also go to bob in similar situations!
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Zarrika Khan
Caldari No Quarter. Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.20 00:23:00 -
[80]
To the OP:
As others have stated: Even a general sense of honor understood by anyone and everyone can only be self imposed upon yourself. You can 'hope' others will agree to it but you cannot force them to.
That being said, you can choose to play this game (or any other) with others who feel the way you do and play it how you would like to... avoid the possible exploits and cheats etc.. fight to the death and so on if you choose to play where that is a possibility and so on regardless of the actions or tactics of your opponents.
Or you can choose to not play where the possible exploits will be used against you.
Posting in here to get a feel for what others think when there are only a small handfull of possible outcomes for realistic option based on the opinions of others was 'reaching' at best... not sure what you hoped it would get you.
You stated that you are not sure if it is worth to continue playng EVE because of 'game mechanics' and the 'exploits':
You should only be playing 'any' game if you have fun playing it. SO if there is any 'part' of EVE that you still find fun and it will keep you happy then I suggest you do that. Otherwise you must realize that you are no longer having fun with EVE for your own reasons and either give it a break and find something else to play until you feel differently (miss something about EVE) or just quit outright and never look back.
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Sylen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2007.02.20 15:58:00 -
[81]
Learn to deal with it. In battle anything goes to win a fight, the age of honor in war has long past with the creation of guns, lasers, and weapons that can extinguish the life of thousands with a push of a button.
Its also a game, so use every trick in the book to win a fight. Even a real strategist and tactician knows that the weaker and more confused you can make an enemy, the better you have at winning a battle with a disciplined force.
You haven't studied your war history at all. If you look back a couple thousand years, the Romans did the same. They cheated, so did the ancient Greeks, or Chinese, and even modern countries like Russia, Germany and the US all "cheated" in war. Its all about knowing how to effectively use any tool, any strategy, and equipment you're given to win a war. If you want to know real honor, its not about how you fight a battle, but how you treat it afterwards, and how you treat the people you have defeated.
True honor comes from respecting everyone, even your most hated enemy. If you can't have that most basic respect, then you have no honor anyways, whatever you do to destroy your enemies. ----------------------------------------------------
A Hamster One, A Hamster Two, A Hamster... Hey where'd that third one go? *Sees Hamster floating in space...* *SOB!!* |
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