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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Devian 666 Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:09:00 - [121] Originally by: Meek also First: saying "A Dev told me it's a bug and it's gonna be fixed" really doesn't hold any weight.. Also if it's in response to a Petition, you run the risk of getting a warning / edited as you are not allowed to quote Petition responses.. Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about this.. I agree that using charters is, in essence, buying some form of protection.. But I don't like the idea of a POS being invincible.. Granted, if the POS is offline.. i.e. no charters.. then it should be fair game to a war dec.. I stated the content of the petition response. I deliberately did not quote the response or the GM name to stay within the forum rules. In response to the pos insurance idea I wouldn't complain if both high sec and low sec pos's had the ability to have insurance. Not sure how the mechanics of it would work but it'd make life a bit easier and would be realistic. You can insure a building or a vehicle so why not a space station? Cool an orange sig
GetergdeKaasboer	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:51:00 - [122] Originally by: Devian 666 I've heard a rumour that if there is a war dec on a corp with a high sec pos that concorde still protect the pos. Is this true or myth? Given that concorde shouldn't do anything to protect the pos with a current war dec. I will throw in my 2 cents... 1) the corp needs to hold high faction standings to anchor new devices, so if u put up an undefended pos your SOL if ur faction standings drop. Goes for onlining also IIRC. 2) why pay for faction certificates if you dont get anything out of them? dont forget you dont need them 0.1-0.3 only dif is no capitals unless resident in the system already. 3) high sec pos dont take any resources from the system (ie no moon mining) so the only thing you can do is compete with NPC stations for functions, read here CCP tool to get ppl to suppliment NPC functions. this is supposed to be a PVP game in the end and PVP also includes economic pvp, which is what player owned and player COMPETITING stations will do with each other. 4) concord wtfpwnd war decing ppl is a bug IMHO BUT the faction should defend the station, else again what are charters for? 5) low sec POS can have items onlined offlined and anchored on the fly (time yes but in 0.0 you can usually see a blob comming) and anchoring too close to the choke points is stupid IMHO 6) high sec are economy nerfed but get a defence bonus, low sec get sov bonuses, have better ice avaible etc. so we seem to be really talking about war decs 7) is a pos really a war dec target in high sec? I would answer no. If your on the ball you will camp the base and halt the flow of fuel and or just kill ppl. If they cannot by default fuel the pos then it goes off line, and you still shut down the pos. blowing up the pos serves what end? (other than a nifty kill mail) again this is an example of high sec pos nerfing. just some thoughts
GetergdeKaasboer	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:54:00 - [123] Originally by: Devian 666 I have had Senior GM confirmation that the Concorde response is bugged and will be fixed in the future. If this is the case, they have to allow you to anchor/unanchor and online/offline defensive structures to protect the pos regardless of corp -> faction standings, else pos players cannot defend them unless they online weapons/ecm etc at the onset and fuel them regardless. Yet another high sec nerf.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:09:00 - [124] Not be another "I'm gonna quit" whinee, I am not going to quit over this (I think). But the reason for the existance of my 2nd account is to hold the research & fuel hauling alts. If Hi-Sec POS get nerfed beyond the point of usability, then why I need the second research account? Maybe I will transfer my best research character to one slot on my main account. But that's about it.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:38:00 - [125] Possible POS Nerf: Counter-Measure #1 Fact: The benefit of researching in a tower is that you can research your jobs faster than in an NPC station. Fact: You measure your research output by multiplying the ammount of jobs in research by the time it takes to research them. Fact: If the time to research the BPOs is nerfed, by increasing the ammount of BPOs in research you can end up with the same result in terms of research output. Fact: A research job placed by a character in behalf of your corp, belongs to the corp and not the character. Fact: A research job placed by a character in behalf of the corp will continue to run even if the character leaves the corp of dies. Fact: A corp research job placed by a character that's long gone, will appear back at the corp hangar when it finishes. So..... 1) Create Caldary achura research alt. 2) Join the corp with the alt. 3) Place a few jobs in research in behalf of the corp, from the corp hangar. 4) Delte the character. 5) Go back to step #1
Jastra Gallente Gallente Venture Inc	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:55:00 - [126] Originally by: Shameless Avenger [center][b] 1) Create Caldary achura research alt. 2) Join the corp with the alt. 3) Place a few jobs in research in behalf of the corp, from the corp hangar. 4) Delte the character. 5) Go back to step #1 Awesome, I hadn't thought of that....LOL, nice one
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:00:00 - [127] Originally by: Shameless Avenger In the case of BPC sellers. The ISK they generate is not directly connected to the POS. The POS make the research come faster, like I said before, but that's it. IMHO, selling BPCs is lame. About the guns, I agree that High sec POSes should have some. I always recommend some guns in any setup, just in case. About my personal POS operation, I have other reasons for running the research POS... It's not about ISK. Selling 1 run ship BPC's is lame, selling 100 run sets of high ME is fine. Never realy understood the reasoning behind buying a 1 run to make your own ship. In case nobody noticed you can actually end up with more isk than you starting with if you sell all the minerals and just buy the completed ship. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Sarinat Talen Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.03.11 02:42:00 - [128] Edited by: Sarinat Talen on 11/03/2007 02:40:01 I perused the thread and don't think anyone has mentioned this, so if someone has forgive me. Has anyone even considered the game balance issue I see that is very very obvious here? In Revelations all ships got an HP boost. Capital ships (as in Dreads) got a huge HP boost, 400% in fact. How much of a HP boost did POSs get? 0%. So giving the upcoming POS warfare additions it seems to me that CCP has made these changes to provide some protection in the interim. But hey, thats just my 2 cents. ISIN is Recruiting http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=343962
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:35:00 - [129] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 08/03/2007 14:05:59 Originally by: Jastra ... allow insurance on POS towers ? /signed! I believe it's better than raising the cost of the wardecs and it does follow the same mechanics as ship loses. I love the idea. Devian, Fitz: what do you think? Well if they are going to allow POS's to be killed... then just like ships you should be able to pay insurance to cover your loss. /signed
PastaMadaFaka	Posted - 2007.03.15 05:22:00 - [130] killing a high sec pos to me is just a complete waste of time due to the fact that the pos wont have anything good inside basicly u just waste time and ammo and maybe some ships ( if the pos has guns ) just to get a kill mail and fuel left overs from the tower that wont even be enough to pay the ammo lol
Dyson Slicin	Posted - 2007.03.17 08:28:00 - [131] Originally by: Devian 666 I seem to have missed something in the calculation. 11 mobile labs x 12 research slots = 132 slots 1.3m/day/slot x 132 slots = 171.6m /day Average loss of revenue over 10 days = 171.6m /day x 10 days = 1.716b The 1.7b isk loss is the immediate short term loss. The loss of labs and ct can be avoided by shutting down the labs (you will most definitly lose the above income calculation), then setting up defenses and hiring mercenaries. If you have a war dec don't just leave the labs sitting out there they are expensive. As another post stated, "finally, some math", however... Each lab has 3 ME, 3 PE, 1 copy and 5 invention slots, but the ME and copy slots are the main demand. Most of the PE and certainly the vast majority of invention slots won't be booked. When you take that into account along with the 180M+ isk in fuel costs each month, no research POS owner can possibly make anything close to what you are suggesting. Lastly, running a large POS is quite a lot of work. Also, anyone who can afford to put up a large tower and 11 labs, can certainly find the relative chump change to set up a full complement of artillery, missile and EW batterys. While you're not war dec'ed you don't have to have them online; just get them anchored and loaded. It should only take 30-90 minutes to get everything online if a war dec occurs.
Pirates1	Posted - 2007.03.22 01:13:00 - [132] So is it now possible to shoot down an Pos in 0.5 space if a war is decleared or not?
Devian 666 Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.22 05:57:00 - [133] Originally by: Dyson Slicin Edited by: Dyson Slicin on 22/03/2007 00:01:09 Originally by: Devian 666 I seem to have missed something in the calculation. 11 mobile labs x 12 research slots = 132 slots 1.3m/day/slot x 132 slots = 171.6m /day Average loss of revenue over 10 days = 171.6m /day x 10 days = 1.716b The 1.7b isk loss is the immediate short term loss. The loss of labs and ct can be avoided by shutting down the labs (you will most definitly lose the above income calculation), then setting up defenses and hiring mercenaries. If you have a war dec don't just leave the labs sitting out there they are expensive. As another post stated, "finally, some math", however... Each lab has 3 ME, 3 PE, 1 copy and 5 invention slots, but the ME and copy slots are the main demand. Most of the PE and certainly the vast majority of invention slots won't be booked. When you take that into account along with the 180M+ isk in fuel costs each month, no research POS owner can possibly make anything close to what you are suggesting. Lastly, running a large POS is quite a lot of work. Also, anyone who can afford to put up a large tower and 11 labs, can certainly find the relative chump change to set up a full complement of artillery, missile and EW batterys. While you're not war dec'ed you don't have to have them online; just get them anchored and loaded. It should only take 30-90 minutes to get everything online if a war dec occurs. You claim it is not possible to make enough isk from a research pos to pay for fuel. Perhaps you should explain this to the large pos owners making a profit. "If you had a gang of 81127 kestrals you could alpha strike Tranquility Server into a smoking hole in the ground"
Devian 666 Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.22 05:58:00 - [134] Originally by: Pirates1 So is it now possible to shoot down an Pos in 0.5 space if a war is decleared or not? I have heard mixed reports but I currently understand that it is possible. If you try it and get concorded petition to get your ships back. "If you had a gang of 81127 kestrals you could alpha strike Tranquility Server into a smoking hole in the ground"
Kyle Haque	Posted - 2007.05.20 19:39:00 - [135] We just took out a war target pos and ran into the concord issue the way to get around it is simple you must wait for the POS to aggro each member separately and then you can attack. And the GM's will reimburse you for a loss due to this bug.
BabyGurl	Posted - 2007.05.21 16:07:00 - [136] I have seen a lot of interesting information arise in this thread. The main reason there is limited response by the industrialists, is that they don't want to cause problems. They generally aren't out to smacktalk, or get their jollies out of attacking other people. They play a strategic portion of this game. Their PvP is against fellow traders and industrialists. Oveur has said this is a PvP game. But facts are facts, that there are just as many (if not far more) industrialists in this game. If CCP gets to a point where they continue to penalise the majority of their playerbase in favour of a few, then it is only their pockets that will feel the brunt of the decisions. Now, having said all of that, my next post will explain what I feel about all of this. Yes, this is an alt. This is the first time I have ever posted with an alt, and the first time I have ever felt I needed to post with an alt.
BabyGurl	Posted - 2007.05.21 16:31:00 - [137] Ok, the current cost to run an empire research POS is approximately 160m per month. An empire research POS requires an investment of 1.7 billion isk. Now, the return per slot on a POS per day isn't close to the number Devian advised a page back. These days you earn approximately 300-400k per day per slot. Assuming ME/COPY on a large caldari tower (aforementioned costs) this allows a total of 60 slots. Assuming you can have all 60 slots in use, your POS is making you 21m per day (minus salaries). This constitutes 588m in a month. Minus the fuel cost and you have 428m. Of course, to have all 60 slots in use, would require at least 6 characters, or 2 accounts. This still sounds ok, sure I can make 428m in a month over 2 accounts, or 214m/month/account. The question now becomes, is this sufficient funding for what my job entails. Lets see: * 2 months training time on each account (getting all 6 alts to adv lab 5) * Marketting my end product/s * Capital required to purchase npc bpo's for resale * Funds required as collateral when researching other people's bpos * Freighter purchase/rental required for fuel purchasing * Time switching between chars to put new jobs on, skillchange etc * Advertising my product So sure, the profit is still 'ok' assuming you can run maximum proficiency in ME/COPY areas and still have the capital on hand to cover your investment. Now, lets delve a little deeper. Those with lowsec or 0.0 pos's get the following: * System Sovereignty bonuses * Ability to run simple reactions * Ability to moon mine * Ability to run complex reactions * Discount on fuel even beyond sov due to charter price * No standing requirements Now, I am not disputing the things they get at all, I think it is justified in the risk/reward scheme. If this truly is a bug according to CCP, and concord will no longer defend non-wardec'd corporate research towers, then there has to be some kind of compromise given. Research towers make semi-decent profit when successfull, well run, efficient, and well known. Sure, it isn't close to the profit one could make running missions during the same amount of hours, but it is an industrial way of life. Industrialists are already treated quite poorly by CCP in Eve, and the requests of some are trying to push industrial players even further from the game. Think of us, as the bad sons of Eve, it does feel that way. Back on topic: If CCP choose to allow this change to take affect, to allow high security towers to be attacked during wartime, I request the following allowances: * Moon Mining * Simple Reactions ability. Those in opposition to these towers are always speaking of risk vs reward. Well if CCP open the wardec allowances a lot of corporate setups will cease to exist. The profits just aren't there to justify switching off half your labs to mount a sufficient defence. That doesn't even begin to address the mass petitions CCP are left with, after all these bpo's/bpc's vanish due to a system that has been implemented poorly and only ever revisited to suit combat related activities. [ot]As an aside. Who gives a damn about putting guns outside a POS, when EVERY single bpo that you copy in an alliance requires a petition to retrieve. [/ot] So finally, don't take this as me wanting invulnerability. Take this as me wanting a fair balance to be upheld in the event of such a drastic change. Why would I spend 6-12 months working my butt off for a corporation who charge me a premium, refuse to assist in defence, and don't allow me to utilise 1/5th of the capabilities of the tower? Balance is needed, if you Combatants get your way.
Devian 666 Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.05.22 12:14:00 - [138] If you read back a bit further the numbers for that approach to a research pos were from another poster. I just corrected some math. There are actually far more profitable approaches than the one suggested but I can't reveal details. Though the more profitable approach can very economically be combined with invention to more fully utilise the slots available in the labs. I also reported that my petition had been responded to by a senior GM and I understand the issue has been fixed. I response to some of your other points. * Most people use disposible research alts and in fact my character would have made a good research alt so I pvp with him instead * Marketing products isn't that hard it's logistics and distribution that can be very time consuming. * You are correct you do need capital behind you to invest in the business and this can be raised by many methods. Some more legitimate than others. * Bond/collateral for other people's BPO's true but only for the public pos concept which I do not favour as a business model. * You do not need a freighter to fuel a pos. I used to fuel a 0.0 small pos with an itty 1 so this item is exagerated. * All business ventures in eve take a certain amount of time. You have to decide if it's worth the time invested for the returns you get. Basically isk/hour of "work" on eve. (Note that I do not support people being greedy, chill out and enjoy the eve universe). * Advertising product or service. The costs for contracts aren't that bad. Time and effort for advertising your services I refer you to the above point. Yes there are benefits to 0.3 or lower pos's. Sovereignty is like putting up a flag with the words shoot me on it. Moon mining meh, and reactions meh. In my opinion not worth the time even though it sounds automatic. When you try to put it into practice you be better in 0.3 space running simple/complex reactions from moon minerals bought in high sec. Even then a waste of time. If you want moon mining you can have it as it's worthless. Running simple reactions in high sec would just be another way of devaluing low sec pos's and 0.0 pos's and altering their risk/reward profile considerably. Again as I've stated in earlier posts unfair on people who actually risk their capital. The following are my suggestions: If you don't like being able to be war dec'd and you don't want to defend your pos that is your choice. It's a business decision but an unprotected pos is foolish to say the least. There are plenty of bugs in eve and a heap of quirks relating to pos's suck it up and subject detailed BUG REPORTS. For recovering bpos needing petitions well CCP know what they need to do to make those petitions go away. I'm all about fairness. My views as stated earlier take into consideration the effort and risk people make to have their pos's where they can be shot at without a war dec and given locations where there are no npc stations are outposts they are a profitable enterprise. In high sec you can make a lot of isk but you need the correct business model and the proposed model in this thread would not be very profitable compared to other isk/hour models. There is also one fatal flaw in the logic most of the posters and that is that attacking a high sec pos is not a profitable activity (and very boring and time consuming). Piracy is about making profit while shooting things and pos's do not get pirated. Someone has to really not like you or your corp to spend that much isk destroying a high sec pos. That and there's no need to necro old threads "If you had a gang of 81127 kestrals you could alpha strike Tranquility Server into a smoking hole in the ground"
Devian 666 Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.05.22 12:18:00 - [139] Originally by: Kyle Haque We just took out a war target pos and ran into the concord issue the way to get around it is simple you must wait for the POS to aggro each member separately and then you can attack. And the GM's will reimburse you for a loss due to this bug. Keep up the good work. "If you had a gang of 81127 kestrals you could alpha strike Tranquility Server into a smoking hole in the ground"
Landarian Spaceways Provisioning Company	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:59:00 - [140] I haven't read all 6 pages of replies here ..got through the first 2 and wanted to post .. High-sec research POS owners PAY for Concord protection via the Starbase Charters that are required for fuel. So it would seem perfectly reasonable to have the "cops" come and help out, wardec or not. L
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.05.25 20:09:00 - [141] After some months of this thread going on I think this is the issue: Some guys figured out they could make money by researching BPOs for people with big wallets and making loads of BPCs for invention. These same guys don't want to reveal their "secrets" but they do want to be able to blow up the competing POSes. They don't care about who else gets screwed, they just want to monopolize the BPO/BPC market and the "wardecable POS" is gonna help them achieve that. In the name of 'balance', if the POSes turn into wardecable targets in high sec, I believe is only fair that their magic money making process get's nerfed too. Something like: * reducing the copy slots to one per lab. * increase copy time on mobile labs * make bpc's a perishable item that banishes aster a few weeks In other words, nerf the money making "secret" that promoted the need for wardecable poses in the first place. After all, that's the issue right?
Popperr	Posted - 2007.05.25 21:47:00 - [142] Dear CCP, Once again, it seems that several of your employees have been up to no good. We'll get into the details a little later, but the highlights are quite juicy: CCP employees abusing their roles to join player corporations and give themselves director access, RP-events being rigged and what I really thought we were over, further fraternization between your employees and members of BoB and the subsequent cover-up. These latter two events actually stem from the same source, a former ISD member. Let us begin with CCP Sharkbait joining the corporation "DarkStar 1" and giving himself director access. This was not preceded by a customer service request that would in any shape, way or form require a CCP employee to join the corporation. Less then one minute after joining the corporation, he added the role "Director" to himself, roughly fourteen minutes later, he leaves the corporation and surrenders the role. http://images.goonfleet.com/images/ccp/2007.05.25.15.19.48.jpg http://images.goonfleet.com/images/ccp/CCP%20charkbait%202.png Upon learning of this, corporate officers from DarkStar 1 immediately filed a petition in an effort to discover the reasons for this. This petition was promptly deleted and CCP Sharkbait would not respond to in-game conversations. Why would a CCP Employee ever join a corporation without being asked to do so or any prior communication indicating that this would take place? Why was the petition filed by officials from DarkStar 1 deleted with no response or reason? The second part of this sordid story is best told "as is". Below I've included the account of one Raekhan, a former member of ISD. His story is two-fold and will encompass both the rigging of RP-events, as well as the fraternization between members of BoB and CCP and its cover-up. Continued at http://goonfleet.com/open_letter_to_CCP.html
Gegi Wau Minmatar Liberty Labs	Posted - 2007.05.26 15:31:00 - [143] Originally by: Shameless Avenger In the name of 'balance', if the POSes turn into wardecable targets in high sec, I believe is only fair that their magic money making process get's nerfed too. Something like: * reducing the copy slots to one per lab. * increase copy time on mobile labs * make bpc's a perishable item that banishes aster a few weeks In other words, nerf the money making "secret" that promoted the need for wardecable poses in the first place. After all, that's the issue right? I think that mobile labs already have one copy slot only. At least mine do. AMARRES EUNT DOMUS
Fallen Tears PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.07.22 15:29:00 - [144] It really doesn't matter if posses are concord protected or not. If anyone has witnessed a POS-siege then they know it takes a hell lot of firepower and tanking to take a POS down. And dreadnoughts (wich are needed for the siege) are not allowed in high security. I'd say make a certain amount of research slots available to a person not to a station and make it go up with skills this will make high sec posses less usefull if not useless. The role of a POS is a 0.0 base.
Kyp Rodan Racketeers	Posted - 2007.08.17 10:40:00 - [145] Originally by: Fallen Tears It really doesn't matter if posses are concord protected or not. If anyone has witnessed a POS-siege then they know it takes a hell lot of firepower and tanking to take a POS down. And dreadnoughts (wich are needed for the siege) are not allowed in high security. I'd say make a certain amount of research slots available to a person not to a station and make it go up with skills this will make high sec posses less usefull if not useless. The role of a POS is a 0.0 base. oh yeah they are.... just need to be built in the system and they can be cyno'd out.
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.08.17 15:11:00 - [146] Yay, 2 guys necro'ing the same thread. Let it die. ---------------------------------------------> Red Dwarf is currently recruiting missioners, miners, and 0.0 ratters. Please contact me in-game for details or join channel Red Dwarf Recruitment.
Lost InCogneto	Posted - 2007.08.20 05:14:00 - [147] Concored doesnt get involved when a corp is war deced so make it the same for pos's .. But let people be allowed to defend them, allow pos control in high sec if the corp is war deced ....
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.21 00:34:00 - [148] Edited by: Devian 666 on 21/08/2007 00:34:24 Yeah I agree enough necro for one thread that has run it's course. I request that this thread be locked lest someone dig up another corpse for their pleasure. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.

Kaemonn Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.08.21 01:17:00 - [149] Dont necro posts. Let them rest in peace. forum rules \| [email protected]\| Eve-CCG


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