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The AntiChrist666 Diablo13
Erbital Bombardment
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 15:53:52 -
[1] - Quote
With the new update; 'citadel' you get a total reduction of 1,5% in market fees when you have trained both broker and tax skills to a maximum.
1,5% reduction when both skills are level 5, 1.5% reduction.... |
Skar
Shadow Legion
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 16:08:25 -
[2] - Quote
From Patch Notes : ********************************* Market:
Market taxes have been changed: BrokerGÇÖs Fee: 3% Reduced to 2.5% with skills and 2% with both skills and maximum NPC standings The brokers fee is paid to owners in outposts, is customizable and paid to owners in Citadels The skill Broker Relations doesn't apply in Citadels Transaction Tax: 2% Reduced to 1% with maximum skills ************************************
However.... Broker fee on buy and sell order is now 3% base compared to the old 1% Transaction fees are now 2% base instead of 1.5%
Overall with MAX skills its a huge nerf on the bigger items like PLEX etc. Either prices will have to increase or buy orders will have to be lower. It cannot stay the same. Pulled all my orders for now and watching.
If i have my numbers wrong i apologise in advance...however i have just looked up some old posts and I think i am right. |
Aerilyn Neiliff
Voyager Bridge Crew Dark World Sanctuaries
12
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Posted - 2016.04.27 16:21:15 -
[3] - Quote
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote:With the new update; 'citadel' you get a total reduction of 1,5% in market fees when you have trained both broker and tax skills to a maximum.
1,5% reduction when both skills are level 5, 1.5% reduction....
CCP is trying to push traders into citadels. Everyone knows that. |
Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
94
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:08:44 -
[4] - Quote
Skar wrote: Pulled all my orders for now and watching.
Pulled all your orders that you had up at the old broker rates? oO
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Skar
Shadow Legion
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:16:30 -
[5] - Quote
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:Skar wrote: Pulled all my orders for now and watching.
Pulled all your orders that you had up at the old broker rates? oO
Yeah - I only had a few sell orders up. Buy orders ive pulled as i want to see what happens with prices - again i didnt have much up i did clear a lot yesterday.
Had i read the patch notes properly i would have cleared everything. I skim read the patch notes and thought the Brokers fee/Tax applied to Citadels only... lazy me..
Anyway: 8% station trading buy/sell BASE(before skills/standings) now. 3.5% station tradeing buy/sell BASE(before skills/standings) before patch.
Thats a big hit....lotta adjusting coming.
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Tempus Halley
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:49:46 -
[6] - Quote
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:Skar wrote: Pulled all my orders for now and watching.
Pulled all your orders that you had up at the old broker rates? oO
I did the opposite. Once I heard of the broker and tax increase 2 months ago, I trained my 2 alts to Accounting 4, Broker 4 and Tycoon 4. When I was disconnected last night by the downtime before the patch, I had no free orders across 3 toons and 90% of my expensive items were up for sale at the pre-patch broker price. Ultimately, I hope to sell at a higher price brought on by the expected increase in margin and did not need to pay the higher broker to place those orders.
For the future, I am training my 2 alts to Accounting 5 so I do not get too hard hit by the tax increase and will probably train them to Broker 5 before I have them put any low margin items up for sale in the future.
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Skar
Shadow Legion
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 18:21:47 -
[7] - Quote
Tempus Halley wrote: I did the opposite. Once I heard of the broker and tax increase 2 months ago, I trained my 2 alts to Accounting 4, Broker 4 and Tycoon 4. When I was disconnected last night by the downtime before the patch, I had no free orders across 3 toons and 90% of my expensive items were up for sale at the pre-patch broker price. Ultimately, I hope to sell at a higher price brought on by the expected increase in margin and did not need to pay the higher broker to place those orders.
For the future, I am training my 2 alts to Accounting 5 so I do not get too hard hit by the tax increase and will probably train them to Broker 5 before I have them put any low margin items up for sale in the future.
Cool - Wish i had your foresight. I'm only small fry anyway ;) So not like i lost out bigtime.
The thing about not getting hit too hard... I have Accounting 5 and Broker Relations 4(few days from 5). My standing with Amarr is 7.36....could be higher but all in all im not far from max skills for reducing fees/tax.
Even so im paying 2.37% for broker fee to buy and 2.37% to sell + 1% Trans tax. Thats still 5.74%. I think it was around 2.5% before to buy and sell an item.
What i'm saying is the hit is there max skill or not
The gap between buy and sell will have to get bigger - i'm seeing tons of orders on the market at the mo and even with max skills and 10 standing its a big loss.
Markets are in flux and will settle in time. I'll hang on a bit and look for oppurtunities but very reluctant to dive into anything to be honest. |
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13
Erbital Bombardment
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 20:03:31 -
[8] - Quote
Aerilyn Neiliff wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote:With the new update; 'citadel' you get a total reduction of 1,5% in market fees when you have trained both broker and tax skills to a maximum.
1,5% reduction when both skills are level 5, 1.5% reduction.... CCP is trying to push traders into citadels. Everyone knows that.
yes it is f*n ******** how it goes like that, they really have no clue that this will create a single super power in the game again in the future. The strongest is capable of taking control of the market and wiping out the competition by just declaring war and these incompetent f*s CONCORD are just brain dead eating their asses, therefore they will generate all the money from the market hubs and will make them even more powerfull. And when everything is **** and people are complaining about it than CCP will come with arguments about how personal conflicts within those superpowers will eventually divide the market and bring balance once more...
If they don't come up with solutions in high sec to to deal with such problems, eve online will be soon a dead wasteland with ******** f*s and sociopathic incompetent delusional "human beings" roaming around.
Just look at CODE about what they do and where they are, CONCORD doesn't give a ****, f*g bandits in front of Jita main hub station waiting to blow merchants up, 'IN FRONT' of the station gate, what does CONCORD?
What this basically means is the basic concept of these **** is just waiting in front of the gate, literal, and CCP is now inviting those opportunities inside, in my eyes the last stronghold that kept those weirdo's full of hate out is now beginning to fall.
Mark my words, like this, eve online will be a dead wasteland sooner or later full of delusional clowns that want to share their hate and sarcasm with you. If not, I hope so, because that would be allot of time and effort wasted in this, than in my eyes maybe a small miracle has taken place.
Anyway I hope I am wrong and things will get more fun in the near future with this new ideas implanted into the game. |
Ria Nieyli
44804
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 20:43:32 -
[9] - Quote
Aerilyn Neiliff wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote:With the new update; 'citadel' you get a total reduction of 1,5% in market fees when you have trained both broker and tax skills to a maximum.
1,5% reduction when both skills are level 5, 1.5% reduction.... CCP is trying to push traders into citadels. Everyone knows that.
Too little, too late. Large citadel needs 15 days to get built, and then an additional 24 hours to get anchored. By the time there's a citadel market up and running, everyone would have already adjusted to the new taxes.
"slang" is shortened language for "shortened language"
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Amy Inhibenson
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2016.04.28 04:28:33 -
[10] - Quote
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote:snip
Pretty much |
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
668
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 04:39:02 -
[11] - Quote
from what I see, these tax increases will mostly affect market playas, speculators and manipulators. IMHO: these people are the bane of EVE, they're simply producing nothing and providing nothing.
it'll be interesting to see what happens in the long term.
I agree, however, that whichever alliance can put up 'New Jita' first will make a huge windfall, even if it's at the old market rates.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
45
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Posted - 2016.04.28 06:05:32 -
[12] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:from what I see, these tax increases will mostly affect market playas, speculators and manipulators. IMHO: these people are the bane of EVE, they're simply producing nothing and providing nothing.
it'll be interesting to see what happens in the long term.
I agree, however, that whichever alliance can put up 'New Jita' first will make a huge windfall, even if it's at the old market rates. trading has always been a part of eve and calling the players who take part in that aspect of the game, the bane of eve is a joke. Whenever a player has something to sell and needs isk quickly, the so called "bane of eve" are the ones who provide it. This pretty much has always helped new players make more isk besides running missions or mining.
I realize that the 0.01isk game is something a lot of people hate when it comes to marketing and assume that its mostly bots however a lot of players play that game with marketing so what some assume to be bots could possibly be multiple people playing that game.
With regards to the citadels and players flocking to them to create the new jita, I really think it would be great, yet I dont see it happening. Players are to fixated with the current system jita to the point where its the main "goto" point for buying and selling and at the moment some players may be confused or pissed with the new tax percentages but will soon adapt as has been seen time and again in the past.
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Redneck Herman
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.04.28 07:40:45 -
[13] - Quote
I foresee Jita not going anywhere.
This change has made trading too expensive and killed market pvp atleast for me.
Absolutely needs to go. |
Tarucin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 10:41:48 -
[14] - Quote
I came back to EVE after a very long hiatus after hearing about this war.
I came back started with a mining corp in high sec, while I train up my character. I am an industrialist. I make items I sell them I mine.
I started training up trading skills as I made more from sell orders when listing the items I produced.
Now?
I make nothing, the only thing that makes me money is selling minerals. I have no incentive to manufacture because of taxes and I can't use my corps POS because we get wardecced by pirates.
So now the only way I can make ISK in this game is running L4's or Ratting.
I thought CCP wanted to give the players a sandbox and see what they do. They seemed to have gone backwards on this by adding these awful tax rates and trying to force players into a Citadel. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
877
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 10:59:27 -
[15] - Quote
Tarucin wrote:I came back to EVE after a very long hiatus after hearing about this war.
I came back started with a mining corp in high sec, while I train up my character. I am an industrialist. I make items I sell them I mine.
I started training up trading skills as I made more from sell orders when listing the items I produced.
Now?
I make nothing, the only thing that makes me money is selling minerals. I have no incentive to manufacture because of taxes and I can't use my corps POS because we get wardecced by pirates.
So now the only way I can make ISK in this game is running L4's or Ratting.
I thought CCP wanted to give the players a sandbox and see what they do. They seemed to have gone backwards on this by adding these awful tax rates and trying to force players into a Citadel.
They are not trying to force players into citadels.
The tax rise has two purposes.
1) to provide an isk sink
2)to allow citadel owners to actually undercut NPC stations at all. Undercutting 0.187% would have been pointless.
What you are seeing on the markets right now is people not adjusting to the new taxes, so, for now margins are negative.
However, the sky is falling version is "Profit margins will forever remain negative because no one is smart enough to maths the minimum margin needed"
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Fin Udan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2016.04.28 11:04:41 -
[16] - Quote
Eve is going through interesting times particularly for the trading community.
It will be interesting to see if a viable low cost freeport can be established.
The owner ofc would become extremely rich.
I trade Eve Mogul
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Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd Agents of Fortune
8
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Posted - 2016.04.28 14:16:01 -
[17] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:from what I see, these tax increases will mostly affect market playas, speculators and manipulators. IMHO: these people are the bane of EVE, they're simply producing nothing and providing nothing.
it'll be interesting to see what happens in the long term.
I agree, however, that whichever alliance can put up 'New Jita' first will make a huge windfall, even if it's at the old market rates.
Quite to the contrary, market traders provide a vast, substantial and invaluable service to the community. We go to great effort to research the goods we trade in order to develop an understanding of their fundamental use, need and economic value. We buy up excess stocks when goods are oversupplied, release our inventories for sale when goods are undersupplied, and move inventories from system to system, region to region, all in an effort to assure stable and equitable supplies and pricing. We selflessly give back to you, the EVE community in this way.
As I see it, the higher taxes and fees are really no big deal. It's a simple matter of adapting to the wider spreads needed between bid and asked prices in order to account for the increased transaction costs. As Rhrivre pointed out, the rise will open the door for Citadels to at least have a chance to garner a small portion of "the market for markets". I doubt Citadels will replace, or even heavily impact the volume of trade conducted through major NPC trade hubs, though. Current hubs are too hugely imbedded in their roles for mass exodus to be at risk, and also, Citadels are vulnerable structures... how much of your inventory would you want to put at risk warehoused in one?
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Fin Udan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 14:39:25 -
[18] - Quote
Jay Aaron wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:from what I see, these tax increases will mostly affect market playas, speculators and manipulators. IMHO: these people are the bane of EVE, they're simply producing nothing and providing nothing.
it'll be interesting to see what happens in the long term.
I agree, however, that whichever alliance can put up 'New Jita' first will make a huge windfall, even if it's at the old market rates. Quite to the contrary, market traders provide a vast, substantial and invaluable service to the community. We go to great effort to research the goods we trade in order to develop an understanding of their fundamental use, need and economic value. We buy up excess stocks when goods are oversupplied, release our inventories for sale when goods are undersupplied, and move inventories from system to system, region to region, all in an effort to assure stable and equitable supplies and pricing. We selflessly give back to you, the EVE community in this way. As I see it, the higher taxes and fees are really no big deal. It's a simple matter of adapting to the wider spreads needed between bid and asked prices in order to account for the increased transaction costs. As Rhrivre pointed out, the rise will open the door for Citadels to at least have a chance to garner a small portion of "the market for markets". I doubt Citadels will replace, or even heavily impact the volume of trade conducted through major NPC trade hubs, though. Current hubs are too hugely imbedded in their roles for mass exodus to be at risk, and also, Citadels are vulnerable structures... how much of your inventory would you want to put at risk warehoused in one?
I would be quite willing to 'gradually' and over a period of time move my trading operation to a viable Citadel.
My costs have tripled since the patch so I would be keen to explore viable reduced costs options.
I trade Eve Mogul
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Skar
Shadow Legion
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 15:19:09 -
[19] - Quote
+1
Agree with everything you said.
Margins will have to widen to accomodate the new fees/tax. This will happen and it will happen naturally over time - as in real life markets.
Personally i feel the Devs may have an over inflated view of what Citadels will become and also how much of an impact Citadels will have. However thats just me looking at the future and calling it as i see it. I may well be incorrect, but i think not. I find them very underwhelming.
I'm gunna hang up my traders hat for a week or three and actually have some fun for a change... away from the lists of figures.
Fly safe. or not. |
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13
Erbital Bombardment
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 16:36:49 -
[20] - Quote
Jay Aaron wrote:Citadels are vulnerable structures... how much of your inventory would you want to put at risk warehoused in one?
The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby if the the destroyed citadel if from the same corp you are in, something like that, nothing get lost when a citadel is blown up, except for it's structure
They are really killing off NPC trading stations, they want to give more power to the people instead of NPC, which is not bad but there are limit's imo, just look at CODE, just an 'example' of what people can do when they can 'do what they want' in a distant extend, is that good? is that what we want? paying contribution to a club of delusional perverts so we can mine in peace?
Taking away custom offices from the NPC and give it to the players, doesn't sound bad, so why are all taxes at max and none is competing with each other? wink wink
To keep it short, CCP has no problems with creating opportunities for delusional and sociopathic people to have a grip on this game to create large impacts on it.
Not sure if CCP want to generate more $ from subscription or want to scare people away, we all know why people avoiding this game, it's not only for it's complexity. |
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Fydo Skor
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2016.04.28 17:05:45 -
[21] - Quote
Of course the margins will widen....but at the same time less people will sell into buy orders (especially on the larger ISK items).
Lets say pre patch that a 50M SO had a 47M BO price. Now that same item may normalize at 45M BO. Even though the margins are similar with the extra ISK sink, mentally it is still a much larger gap between the 2 and the seller will have a higher chance of posting the SO.
Trading, by nature, was one of the few ways to earn decent ISK without contributing to inflation. Congratulations CCP on helping drive more players to ISK faucet professions. |
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd Agents of Fortune
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 23:48:26 -
[22] - Quote
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote: The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby....
Seriously???
And I do ask in a sincere way as I am admittedly a bit behind on my reading, and I have not fiddled with Cits on the test server. If so, we might as well put skirts on them.
Any such treatment would be rather lame, IMHO. I'll adapt to anything, but come on.... what is happening to our "cold, harsh world"... the essence and distinction of this game? |
Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
27
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 06:12:44 -
[23] - Quote
Jay Aaron wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote: The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby....
Seriously??? And I do ask in a sincere way as I am admittedly a bit behind on my reading, and I have not fiddled with Cits on the test server. If so, we might as well put skirts on them. Any such treatment would be rather lame, IMHO. I'll adapt to anything, but come on.... what is happening to our "cold, harsh world"... the essence and distinction of this game?
Seriously, but there are a few part missing: 1) the stuff stay in transit for a week (I think it will appear in that new "safety" column in assets); 2) it si free of charge if moved to another citadel owned by the "same entity" 3) if they are delivered to a NPC station the items are inpounded, you must pay 105 of the market price to get them back. You can cherry pick what you buy back and leave some of the items for later. 4) the impounded items will last forever, so, if a citadel is destroyed when you are unsubbed you can recover them when you return. 5) That security don't work in a whormhole (no idea of what happen if there is a second citadel in the 'hole)
All the above assume there hasn't been some major change in the last days before release.
Without that kind of security I doubt that the citadels markets would see much trade. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
878
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 12:30:49 -
[24] - Quote
Jay Aaron wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote: The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby....
Seriously??? And I do ask in a sincere way as I am admittedly a bit behind on my reading, and I have not fiddled with Cits on the test server. If so, we might as well put skirts on them. Any such treatment would be rather lame, IMHO. I'll adapt to anything, but come on.... what is happening to our "cold, harsh world"... the essence and distinction of this game?
Well, you can always live in a WH, they have 0 asset safety, and it doesnt take a week to kill a citadel in a WH, just 48h.
As to why?
Because no one would put their assets in a citadel without asset safety.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion
92
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 12:34:27 -
[25] - Quote
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Jay Aaron wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote: The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby....
Seriously??? And I do ask in a sincere way as I am admittedly a bit behind on my reading, and I have not fiddled with Cits on the test server. If so, we might as well put skirts on them. Any such treatment would be rather lame, IMHO. I'll adapt to anything, but come on.... what is happening to our "cold, harsh world"... the essence and distinction of this game? Seriously, but there are a few part missing: 1) the stuff stay in transit for a week (I think it will appear in that new "safety" column in assets); 2) it si free of charge if moved to another citadel owned by the "same entity" 3) if they are delivered to a NPC station the items are inpounded, you must pay 105 of the market price to get them back. You can cherry pick what you buy back and leave some of the items for later. 4) the impounded items will last forever, so, if a citadel is destroyed when you are unsubbed you can recover them when you return. 5) That security don't work in a whormhole (no idea of what happen if there is a second citadel in the 'hole) All the above assume there hasn't been some major change in the last days before release. Without that kind of security I doubt that the citadels markets would see much trade.
Where are you getting the 105 of the market price from? If that's the case, it would be cheaper to just buy new What I'd last read was that it was 10% of the market value, not 105% |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
878
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 12:39:27 -
[26] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:Where are you getting the 105 of the market price from? If that's the case, it would be cheaper to just buy new What I'd last read was that it was 10% of the market value, not 105%
I assume its a missed shift click, as % is above 5
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
32
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 16:52:15 -
[27] - Quote
The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote:
....club of delusional perverts...
To keep it short, CCP has no problems with creating opportunities for delusional and sociopathic people to have a grip on this game to create large impacts on it.
Not sure if CCP want to generate more $ from subscription or want to scare people away, we all know why people avoiding this game, it's not only for it's complexity.
I would not have said it better ! This is exactly what I feel. I just play 2 months a year now and it's enough to disgust me from playing. I don't like this feeling to be forced to act in a way dictated by sociopathic hating guys. This "Sandbox" label is pointless imo
EDIT : first post from me in 2 years, and probably before another bunch of years.
----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á ---
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Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
27
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Posted - 2016.04.29 20:35:39 -
[28] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Jay Aaron wrote:The AntiChrist666 Diablo13 wrote: The problem here is, when a player owned citadel gets blown up to pieces, all the assets inside will magically be transferred to the nearest NPC station or to another citadel of the same corp nearby....
Seriously??? And I do ask in a sincere way as I am admittedly a bit behind on my reading, and I have not fiddled with Cits on the test server. If so, we might as well put skirts on them. Any such treatment would be rather lame, IMHO. I'll adapt to anything, but come on.... what is happening to our "cold, harsh world"... the essence and distinction of this game? Seriously, but there are a few part missing: 1) the stuff stay in transit for a week (I think it will appear in that new "safety" column in assets); 2) it si free of charge if moved to another citadel owned by the "same entity" 3) if they are delivered to a NPC station the items are inpounded, you must pay 105 of the market price to get them back. You can cherry pick what you buy back and leave some of the items for later. 4) the impounded items will last forever, so, if a citadel is destroyed when you are unsubbed you can recover them when you return. 5) That security don't work in a whormhole (no idea of what happen if there is a second citadel in the 'hole) All the above assume there hasn't been some major change in the last days before release. Without that kind of security I doubt that the citadels markets would see much trade. Where are you getting the 105 of the market price from? If that's the case, it would be cheaper to just buy new What I'd last read was that it was 10% of the market value, not 105%
Posting early in the morning and don't rechecking. In my keyboard % is shift+5, I lifted the finger from shift too early. |
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion
92
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 00:32:49 -
[29] - Quote
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:
Posting early in the morning and don't rechecking. In my keyboard % is shift+5, I lifted the finger from shift too early.
I probably should have realized that on my own, sorry lol |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
121
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 04:44:03 -
[30] - Quote
Ever since I started playing Eve, whenever a new or larger ISK sink was needed it fell on the markets.
Manufacturing and traders will have to pay attention but the markets will adjust. The cost gets passed to the customer or the business fails.
What I find amusing is that this time, the ratters got a sink as well in the 900,000 ISK fee to use a jump clone. There is a thread in the GD forum with some guy crying that it's going to cost him 250 million a YEAR. I expect the new broker fees will cost me four or five times that. |
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