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Brescal
The Waldos I N G L O R I O U S
0
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Posted - 2016.04.27 21:42:46 -
[1] - Quote
I understand alot of teh changes made are great, like off grid boosting.
That being said - the rorqual now faces a huge issue. The orca outperforms it and is far cheaper when the industrial core is not being used. Needless to say with the proposed changes, the rorqual will not be fitted with an industrial core even if the invulnerability function is added.
Alliances do not come to the aid of players who are mining. Playing since 2008 has proved that player behavior is always the same in this regard especially in 0.0.
Without the compression function and higher boosting power, the rorqual loses its favor completely. The proposed mining drones are not enough of an incentive to lose the 3 billion isk ship, the force multiplcation it offered as a booster in compression was its sole attractive attribute.
CCP is offering to make it invulnerable while "help" comes. Alliances do not care about their miners and certainly not enough to come help us when being hotdropped. It's important to note that the only change that could really help rorquals stay relevant in the game is to remove the immobility from using the industrial core so that it can at least cloak or relocate in system. The drones are a cute and expensive prize and the killmail on a helpless rorqual and miners will be reason for all 0.0 alliances to ban their use altogether.
I have been explicitly told I am on my own as a miner if i use this ship. How much damage to the industrial players will it take for CCP to understand that miners don't get help? The invulnerability is a prolonged death sentence to a ship that has no favor without its boost increase in compression mode.
TLDR; rorqual will likely be invalid even after the rework.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
668
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Posted - 2016.04.28 00:11:05 -
[2] - Quote
you need to join a better alliance then.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Bla5to Frigate
The Praxus Consortium
28
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Posted - 2016.04.28 00:45:40 -
[3] - Quote
They are also not finished with the re-balancing of the Rorqual. These are just the first features that have been announced, I would bet there will be some additional adjusting and fine tuning over the next several months as they really "dig" in to the re-balance.
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Maker Atavuli
Core Intel
20
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Posted - 2016.04.28 02:53:24 -
[4] - Quote
So will the caps that are showing up in 0.0 anoms also now land with belt rats every so often? That could get interesting quick. |
Brescal
The Waldos I N G L O R I O U S
0
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Posted - 2016.04.28 04:16:31 -
[5] - Quote
yeah it's not finished for sure, I'm just worried (and rightfully so) that CCP will first do to rorquals what they did to supercarriers when they buffed titan doomsdays the first time. Which resulted in insanely large losses in case no one here knows what happened. They won't really give it any balance until 6 months to a year of the ship remaining unused in the majority of space. |
Maker Atavuli
Core Intel
21
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Posted - 2016.04.28 06:45:02 -
[6] - Quote
Brescal wrote: CCP is offering to make it invulnerable while "help" comes. Alliances do not care about their miners and certainly not enough to come help us when being hotdropped. It's important to note that the only change that could really help rorquals stay relevant in the game is to remove the immobility from using the industrial core so that it can at least cloak or relocate in system. The drones are a cute and expensive prize and the killmail on a helpless rorqual and miners will be reason for all 0.0 alliances to ban their use altogether.
While I have never really mined much in null I have run some mining ops in W-space. It would seem like your booster sits in a pos shield in the Rorqual. Skiffs in the belt and a cheap indy with a tractor pulling and hauling the ore as you go. I can't imagine you would ever fly that beast into a belt would you? None of the care bears I know in high sec use Orcas in the belts anymore. Other than a booster what good are they ? Citadels with clone vats just sidelined the last relevant (to me) function anyway right?
For the record if your flying with the right group you should get proper support for mining operations. If you get hot-dropped no one will get to you in time anyway. We always keep combat support in a close off grid safe when a mining op is in process. This seems to cut down on losing the isk war on the kill boards. |
Cade Starclasher
The Study of Wumbology Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.04.28 07:33:21 -
[7] - Quote
I think he is saying that the rorqual will become almost impossible to validate as a mining booster when the proposed "on-grid" boosting changes come into effect, because this will in fact require it to be "in the belt". However, I honestly don't think you'll see a big issue for a couple of reasons:
1. The grid is much larger now. I don't think it was mentioned how far from the miners it is limited to, but with the way the grids are working, I think you can safely sit a rorqual 1000km from your miners and actually use it as a warp-in point to get safe if reds come around. As well you should be able to outfit it with a cloak in such a case.
2. POS'es are movable (while we still have them) so really for the time it takes a pilot to anchor one, why not simply have a small POS available to deploy somewhere on-grid with an enormous or colossal anom. This way you're near a mining field that will last nearly a whole day for a lot of miners, plus you're protected.
I honestly believe that it will be very viable still, and the boost you get running the industrial core makes it worth having to accomodate the ship in some manner. I'm not sure if you can adjust fittings on the rorq without a mobile depot, but if you can't then just keep one on you, with a cloak inside, and have a policy for your members to warp at no less than 10km when safing. You can get cloaked, they can get out of the belt and bounce to a safe, and you can still make money.
Just my opinion, I mined for a long time in Providence before moving to a PvP role. I love mining, and I'm sure that the industrial arm of EVE will ensure that it continues to thrive. |
Brescal
The Waldos I N G L O R I O U S
0
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Posted - 2016.04.28 19:32:04 -
[8] - Quote
excellent points cade
there are only 2 issues with your advice both of which were tried yesterday in an attempt to work around the rorquals current state. Poses cant be anchored just anywhere, they definitely cant be anchored in belts since i tried that. also, i cant cloak the ship while its in compression. The far off safe spot is a huge help absolutely and i will use that.
i have no idea how you tolerated mining in NRDS space. its the worst thing for miners. |
Brescal
The Waldos I N G L O R I O U S
0
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Posted - 2016.04.28 19:33:15 -
[9] - Quote
also keep in mind that there are 2 kinds of hotdrops, both of which are deadly. but one of which is unavoidable
covert ops. |
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
36
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Posted - 2016.04.28 20:26:30 -
[10] - Quote
My concern was actually in the other direction. At Fanfest Fozzie stated that the Rorqual will have the highest yield ship in the game. So potentially we will have a ship with a huge yield, huge hold, and with multiple on grid there is the potential of rolling invulnerability forever.
But all that will depend on actual stats and restrictions. |
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Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
197
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Posted - 2016.04.28 21:03:15 -
[11] - Quote
Maker Atavuli wrote: None of the care bears I know in high sec use Orcas in the belts anymore. Really? When i visit an ice belt, they are swarmed with orcas and freighters.
"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen.
Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher.
Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)
"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
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aldhura
Bartledannians Nite Owls
38
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Posted - 2016.04.29 00:54:21 -
[12] - Quote
Just drop a citadel on grid with your favorite belt and you good to go.
Bartledannians Corporation is recruiting
Nite Owls Alliance is recruiting
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Cade Starclasher
The Study of Wumbology Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.04.29 04:59:47 -
[13] - Quote
aldhura wrote:Just drop a citadel on grid with your favorite belt and you good to go.
Anoms are different from belts, they constantly change location upon spawn, so dropping a citadel isn't a real viable choice. |
Cade Starclasher
The Study of Wumbology Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.04.29 05:07:10 -
[14] - Quote
Brescal wrote:excellent points cade
there are only 2 issues with your advice both of which were tried yesterday in an attempt to work around the rorquals current state. Poses cant be anchored just anywhere, they definitely cant be anchored in belts since i tried that. also, i cant cloak the ship while its in compression. The far off safe spot is a huge help absolutely and i will use that.
i have no idea how you tolerated mining in NRDS space. its the worst thing for miners.
The POS point was just a thought, I wasn't 100% sure if it would be possible.
A cool concept that should be considered for a rorqual is a form of forcefield similar to a POS shield, that would run off of a secondary type of fuel in the hold. As well, make it so that it can only be deployed if the industrial core is active, as well if you could "launch" a set of small or medium guns (depending on your anchor skill) to help protect the ship in the event of a drop.
Obviously CCP wants to level the boost playing field, making it possible to knock the boosts out and even the odds for an unboosted fleet. However, for the aspect of industrialists, they should also have some form of defense for themselves just like a combat booster has weapons.
And NRDS isn't so bad, well in Provi anyway. They have a pretty thorough system for identifying who's hostile and who isn't, plus you just need to have balls of steel to keep a bil worth of exhumers in space with neuts/reds about :P |
Cade Starclasher
The Study of Wumbology Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.04.29 05:13:48 -
[15] - Quote
Also, this could possibly trigger the end of an NRDS type environment, unless the Provi bros have a better way for securing their valuable boosters.
However, another good method to take into consideration if a rorqual is ever in a situation where a bunch of reds show up, keep a cyno ready a couple of systems away near a safe spot. Reds land on your miners, or if you feel the rorq is in danger, just light your cyno, jump it out. |
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
278
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Posted - 2016.05.01 13:00:24 -
[16] - Quote
When Rorquals show up on-grid, fleets specifically designed to hunt them won't be far behind.The business case for deploying the ship must assume it will die. The question is return on investment. Can the Rorqual earn enough to pay for a new ship plus a reasonable profit for the owner before it gets killed? |
O'nira
Hotline K162 The Clown Car
82
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Posted - 2016.05.02 03:44:58 -
[17] - Quote
they are getting buffed later and you are wrong about alliances not coming to help their miners, get a new alliance because yours is most likely **** |
Oxide Ammar
257
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:16:52 -
[18] - Quote
O'nira wrote:they are getting buffed later and you are wrong about alliances not coming to help their miners, get a new alliance because yours is most likely ****
You don't have to talk about alliances with Indy division in it when your alliance is sole purpose is PVP idiot...OK ? To prove my point any ratting ship or mining fleet gets killed don't have enough time frame for any fleet assemble to defend. If any fleet assemble usually it is for retaliation and stopping the attackers from getting more kills in their space. Get your facts straight before ******* post.
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
460
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:23:43 -
[19] - Quote
How to use a Rorqual right now:
Step 1, set up a safe tower for it. Make sure it's got Strontium in it. Step 2, Put your Rorqual in there and fire up the core, then the links. Step 3, go AFK and enjoy your mining bonuses.
How to (probably) use a Rorqual after it got reworked:
Step 1, get 20 chars into Rorquals. Step 2, put 20 Rorquals into belts, release Drone Armada Step 3, pull in 2-3b ISK per hour, easily replacing 5-10 Rorqs per hour in case you get ******.
Q: "HOW DO YOU BUY 10 RORQS FOR 300m ISK EACH!"? A: You don't. You buy them for ~2b, maybe 3b with fit (if the drones are super expensive). And if you lose one, you get 1.8b ISK from the Platinum Insurance you purchased.
Q: What about hotdrops or roaming gangs?! A: Cyno up, 1 or more carriers in, release the Fighters, blap everything.
Q: What if you don't have carriers on standby?! A1: Mining Drones in, Sentries, Heavies, Geckos out, yell for help (say YOU tackled THEM, gets more people to you) and start clearing off hostile tackle and/or fighters. A2: What kind of horrible alliance or corporation are you in where there's not dudes ratting away in carriers making 200m ISK / hr. Hell, even you should put one char into a Carrier and do it.
With the insane insurance payout on capitals, and fozzie saying they will be the yield-kings, there's no reason to ever be afraid that Rorqs might not end up in a good shape. They will end up in the new top bracket of AFK income, far above how carriers used to be.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
589
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Posted - 2016.05.02 12:22:21 -
[20] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:How to (probably) use a Rorqual after it got reworked:
...
Step 3, pull in 2-3b ISK per hour, easily replacing 5-10 Rorqs per hour in case you get ******.
Wouldn't that crash the heck out of the mineral markets though? I don't think that would be sustainable outside of Nullsec becoming an ever-loving warzone to keep the demand of minerals up.
I could see that being handy for raising mining indexes, though.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
460
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Posted - 2016.05.02 13:44:02 -
[21] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:How to (probably) use a Rorqual after it got reworked:
...
Step 3, pull in 2-3b ISK per hour, easily replacing 5-10 Rorqs per hour in case you get ******.
Wouldn't that crash the heck out of the mineral markets though? I don't think that would be sustainable outside of Nullsec becoming an ever-loving warzone to keep the demand of minerals up. I could see that being handy for raising mining indexes, though.
There's always demand for minerals, and all the new structures will keep it up. |
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion
93
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Posted - 2016.05.03 02:32:30 -
[22] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:How to (probably) use a Rorqual after it got reworked:
...
Step 3, pull in 2-3b ISK per hour, easily replacing 5-10 Rorqs per hour in case you get ******.
Wouldn't that crash the heck out of the mineral markets though? I don't think that would be sustainable outside of Nullsec becoming an ever-loving warzone to keep the demand of minerals up. I could see that being handy for raising mining indexes, though. There's always demand for minerals, and all the new structures will keep it up.
Sure, there's always a demand, but pulling that much in per hour is going to fill quite a bit of that demand.
Isn't this exactly what happened to null ores before they were buffed? They had "the best" minerals, but they were so over farmed that their value dropped. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2402
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Posted - 2016.05.04 05:05:54 -
[23] - Quote
What alliances have we been in we bait- er defend ours all the time
Citadel worm hole tax
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Blade Darth
Room for Improvement Limited Expectations
0
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Posted - 2016.05.05 11:59:53 -
[24] - Quote
Brescal wrote:I understand alot of teh changes made are great, like off grid boosting.
That being said - the rorqual now faces a huge issue. The orca outperforms it and is far cheaper when the industrial core is not being used. Needless to say with the proposed changes, the rorqual will not be fitted with an industrial core even if the invulnerability function is added.
Alliances do not come to the aid of players who are mining. Playing since 2008 has proved that player behavior is always the same in this regard especially in 0.0.
Without the compression function and higher boosting power, the rorqual loses its favor completely. The proposed mining drones are not enough of an incentive to lose the 3 billion isk ship, the force multiplcation it offered as a booster in compression was its sole attractive attribute.
CCP is offering to make it invulnerable while "help" comes. Alliances do not care about their miners and certainly not enough to come help us when being hotdropped. It's important to note that the only change that could really help rorquals stay relevant in the game is to remove the immobility from using the industrial core so that it can at least cloak or relocate in system. The drones are a cute and expensive prize and the killmail on a helpless rorqual and miners will be reason for all 0.0 alliances to ban their use altogether.
I have been explicitly told I am on my own as a miner if i use this ship. How much damage to the industrial players will it take for CCP to understand that miners don't get help? The invulnerability is a prolonged death sentence to a ship that has no favor without its boost increase in compression mode.
TLDR; rorqual will likely be invalid even after the rework.
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Hades Dark
Perkone Caldari State
30
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Posted - 2016.05.05 17:11:17 -
[25] - Quote
So the way I see it is the rorqual is aimed for being in a belt and with its fleet of miners being that mining supervisor. Do i agree with the aim? No, but if that's the direction then we should be giving feedback as to what it needs to survive and still do it's job. Like fighters maybe 1 or 2 squads to defend its fleet of miners, then once they cover defenses we can really make that argument that the rorqual will be worth the risk or not. Look at carriers, carriers are much better when it comes to ratting and dealing with small ganks with the new update, and if the rorqual is to be put in the same spotlight of vulnerability then it needs some of the defenses that come with it. |
Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
463
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Posted - 2016.05.05 19:58:43 -
[26] - Quote
Hades Dark wrote:So the way I see it is the rorqual is aimed for being in a belt and with its fleet of miners being that mining supervisor. Do i agree with the aim? No, but if that's the direction then we should be giving feedback as to what it needs to survive and still do it's job. Like fighters maybe 1 or 2 squads to defend its fleet of miners, then once they cover defenses we can really make that argument that the rorqual will be worth the risk or not. Look at carriers, carriers are much better when it comes to ratting and dealing with small ganks with the new update, and if the rorqual is to be put in the same spotlight of vulnerability then it needs some of the defenses that come with it.
The obvious solution is 250 mbit of drones and Gecko Blueprints available from faction drops. And 11 Rorquals in every belt/anom.
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Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
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Posted - 2016.05.06 16:38:40 -
[27] - Quote
Brescal wrote:Alliances do not come to the aid of players who are mining. Playing since 2008 has proved that player behavior is always the same in this regard especially in 0.0. Your alliance is nothing like mine when I lived in null then. If you asked for help in our intel channel you'd have several dozen extremely bored people show up instantly. |
atomic killer
F.A.M.I.L.Y
21
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Posted - 2016.05.06 18:57:36 -
[28] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:Brescal wrote:Alliances do not come to the aid of players who are mining. Playing since 2008 has proved that player behavior is always the same in this regard especially in 0.0. Even if someone comes to help it ends in a doctrine fleet vs Kitchen Sink- some pve fits, failfits, no fc, no comms, bad intel etc. So the tackled ratter/ miner dies together with most of the backup. And all get podded (there is a sabre ofc). So the smart thing to do is minimize losses (leave the barge or afk ratter to die) or light a cyno and drop 10 carriers (with 50 supercap blob as backup) for alliances that can do that. If the invul timer is 15 min I can see alliances being able to muster a defense fleet able to fight 10-15 man wormhole cancer roam, if its shorter than that, not really. Keep in mind that the enemy had longer to prepare and the fleet was probably scheduled, not random. Other possibility (keeping a pvp fleet in range of pve'ers) is not really an option, even if they get paid, who's gonna babysit a rorq for 10 hours..
When Goons were Goons, not what left of them now, they could jump 2-3 motherships + titan (maximum I've seen several titans + motherships and carriers) + several carriers just to save a ratting ship against a fleet of 50+ bombers. |
Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
463
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Posted - 2016.05.07 14:19:55 -
[29] - Quote
atomic killer wrote:Blade Darth wrote:Brescal wrote:Alliances do not come to the aid of players who are mining. Playing since 2008 has proved that player behavior is always the same in this regard especially in 0.0. Even if someone comes to help it ends in a doctrine fleet vs Kitchen Sink- some pve fits, failfits, no fc, no comms, bad intel etc. So the tackled ratter/ miner dies together with most of the backup. And all get podded (there is a sabre ofc). So the smart thing to do is minimize losses (leave the barge or afk ratter to die) or light a cyno and drop 10 carriers (with 50 supercap blob as backup) for alliances that can do that. If the invul timer is 15 min I can see alliances being able to muster a defense fleet able to fight 10-15 man wormhole cancer roam, if its shorter than that, not really. Keep in mind that the enemy had longer to prepare and the fleet was probably scheduled, not random. Other possibility (keeping a pvp fleet in range of pve'ers) is not really an option, even if they get paid, who's gonna babysit a rorq for 10 hours.. When Goons were Goons, not what left of them now, they could jump 2-3 motherships + titan (maximum I've seen several titans + motherships and carriers) + several carriers just to save a ratting ship against a fleet of 50+ bombers.
Can confirm, Goons are dead, and this will never ever happen again. You witnessed the last of their kind and how they died. Also, Goons is totally only a rotting carcass.
Please come back up to Deklein once PL have left to kick the mortal remains of this former so called "alliance". |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
851
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Posted - 2016.05.09 03:27:24 -
[30] - Quote
They could save the Rorq by turning it into mining Carrier like. Otherwise its gone. Since they have replaced all it's features by stations services. Orca is really more than enough for boosting mining fleets. |
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