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ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2016.04.29 17:51:01 -
[1] - Quote
I was interested in setting up a public citadel to let people compress their ore and I was hoping to earn some fees from that. Looks like there is an option for charging fees for reprocessing, but not for compression. I would love to be able to charge for compressing ores, since I suspect most people will rather compress the ore rather than reprocess it. Since the modules are now combined, I can't restrict people to only using the service I can charge for. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2355
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Posted - 2016.04.29 18:49:02 -
[2] - Quote
i brought this up to ccp repeatedly as well as a few others. they seemed to have no interest
Citadel worm hole tax
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ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:58:53 -
[3] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i brought this up to ccp repeatedly as well as a few others. they seemed to have no interest
EDIT: we even pointed out how hard it would be to tax refining w/o taxing compression
Yeah, currently refining in a citadel doesn't make much sense - you still have to haul the products to someplace you can build the actual items. Compressed Ore / Ice is a lot more valuable for industrialists. With the Industrial Arrays the refining tax might be useful, but that would most likely have to be combined with market, etc... |
Ria Nieyli
44931
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Posted - 2016.04.29 23:06:34 -
[4] - Quote
If you're going to be charging for compression, consider that people can do it in a small POS.
"slang" is shortened language for "shortened language"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2357
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Posted - 2016.04.30 01:15:03 -
[5] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:If you're going to be charging for compression, consider that people can do it in a small POS.
gasp really? good thing you can't also refine at a pos as well
Citadel worm hole tax
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 11:06:05 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:If you're going to be charging for compression, consider that people can do it in a small POS. gasp really? good thing you can't also refine at a pos as well
But citadels and stations offer higher refining yields as opposed to POSs and even then high sec POSs have lower yield than low sec ones
I would gladly compress ice in your citadel if it somehow gave me more compressed ore than I originally put in. Assuming that the bonus yield offset the taxes to begin with
But until then I would never bring ore to your specific citadel to compress at a loss when I can set up a small pos anywhere else and just compress there.
No we won't be doing "compression loss" in POSs because the compression mechanic was added to compensate for the old mineral compression system that was necessary for remote industry.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2359
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Posted - 2016.04.30 12:19:08 -
[7] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:If you're going to be charging for compression, consider that people can do it in a small POS. gasp really? good thing you can't also refine at a pos as well But citadels and stations offer higher refining yields as opposed to POSs and even then high sec POSs have lower yield than low sec ones I would gladly compress ice in your citadel if it somehow gave me more compressed ore than I originally put in. Assuming that the bonus yield offset the taxes to begin with But until then I would never bring ore to your specific citadel to compress at a loss when I can set up a small pos anywhere else and just compress there. No we won't be doing "compression loss" in POSs because the compression mechanic was added to compensate for the old mineral compression system that was necessary for remote industry.
See but that's fine I don't want to tax so you compress in my citadel I want to tax it so that you don't just free load out of my citadel and take your ore else where.
Right now there is no reason to refine in any taxed citadel as you can easily move your ore to one without tax or to one with a high volume market.
What's the reason not to let us tax a service we are providing. Also pos compression will likely be gone this time next year
Citadel worm hole tax
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 12:31:08 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:What's the reason not to let us tax a service we are providing.
Probably that the money and human effort required to add compression tax is considered a waste since compression is something CCP wants to be widely available and used. Compression is a crucial feature for everyone. Not mainly the people who compress but the people who use things that depend on the ability to ship ores to remote locations.
Which is the reason that compression is not split into yields depending on the facilities, skills and locations. Just 100% instant compression everywhere.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Also pos compression will likely be gone this time next year
Replaced by those industrial things that will fill the same role but for less effort.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2359
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Posted - 2016.04.30 12:45:13 -
[9] - Quote
How is putting a tax on it limiting people from using it I thought you said anyone could just put down a pos?
And are you saying that compression is more crucial than refining or industry? Don't just pull a reason out of no where
Citadel worm hole tax
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:10:37 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:How is putting a tax on it limiting people from using it I thought you said anyone could just put down a pos?
It takes time, money and effort to implement but it's very unlikely that anyone will ever pay compression tax in the end due to the ease of access.
Sort of like if you wanted to add a tax on using the citadels character customization service.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:And are you saying that compression is more crucial than refining or industry? Don't just pull a reason out of no where
Compression exists because minerals and uncompressed ores are almost completely useless for industry in remote locations like deep null sec due to the very expensive logistics.
For example building say... a Carrier just 20 or so light years out of Jita will add another 20-30% or so in total cost from the fuel alone if done without ore compression.
Compression is the mandatory base to get started on. After that refining is balanced around how much effort you put into the preparations.
You train all the skills and get the implant. If you use a very safe easy to access high sec station then you have to work on standings. Even then the refining rate will be meh.
Setting up a pos will elliminate the need for standings in exchange for personal investment and putting yourself at slight risk from wardeccs.
The next step is a low sec POS which increases the risk and so reward further.
Then comes nullsec player owned stations which has the highest yield but also added risk to compensate.
Later on medium sized citadels placed in low/nullsec will provide the highest bonuses
You can compress anywhere because the result is very mobile. But you only refine where you plan to use the ore. Once turned into minerals, the ore is stuck. Moving minerals around is incredibly expensive in time and effort.
Hence higher risk facilities have better yield to compensate for the risk of building in those areas.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2359
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:20:08 -
[11] - Quote
There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay a tax on compression.
And trading just incentives more people to pen theirs up to the public increasing the ease of getting things compressed
Citadel worm hole tax
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:27:23 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay a tax on compression.
Edit: honestly if all the effort and basis you plan to return is two lines at a time then this is a waste of effort.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2360
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:40:32 -
[13] - Quote
Not about to Wright asb easy from my cell
Citadel worm hole tax
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ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.04.30 18:33:11 -
[14] - Quote
Okay, the reason why we need compression tax is that currently with Citadels you have the following options:
- You are in a corp, you put up a POS or a Citadel and compress your ore - this is only viable for a group or a multiboxer, since the fuel will otherwise eat into your profits.
- If you can't put those up, you rely on a third party to put up an open Citadel that you can use for free, since you can't charge for the compression
Since in option 2 the Citadel owner gains nothing and burns fuel to keep things up, it won't be too popular. Best they can hope for is to put up a large Citadel with a market attached and hope people will start selling ore on the spot, but your costs are a lot higher.
So in other words, the feature is only useful for groups larger than a handful that mine regularly - good for nullsec and organized corps, but bad for highsec where you have a lot of casual miners everywhere. If you have a Citadel and are mining with a group, you want to keep it private to avoid competition from random miners that would compress in your Citadel for free.
However, if you could charge for compression, Citadel owners would want to capitalize on the miners by providing the compression service everywhere. They get a small cut, miners get to compress their minerals and earn ISK easier, more compressed ore flows to the markets.
It's a bit like this graph - http://www.freemathhelp.com/images/lessons/graph1.gif . Currently Citadel compression is useful for groups that are on the right side - the large groups, while we are dropping the guys from the left - the numerous solo and small group miners. |
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 18:41:25 -
[15] - Quote
ThePiachu Avar wrote:Okay, the reason why we need compression tax is that currently with Citadels you have the following options: - You are in a corp, you put up a POS or a Citadel and compress your ore - this is only viable for a group or a multiboxer, since the fuel will otherwise eat into your profits. - If you can't put those up, you rely on a third party to put up an open Citadel that you can use for free, since you can't charge for the compression Since in option 2 the Citadel owner gains nothing and burns fuel to keep things up, it won't be too popular. Best they can hope for is to put up a large Citadel with a market attached and hope people will start selling ore on the spot, but your costs are a lot higher. So in other words, the feature is only useful for groups larger than a handful that mine regularly - good for nullsec and organized corps, but bad for highsec where you have a lot of casual miners everywhere. If you have a Citadel and are mining with a group, you want to keep it private to avoid competition from random miners that would compress in your Citadel for free. However, if you could charge for compression, Citadel owners would want to capitalize on the miners by providing the compression service everywhere. They get a small cut, miners get to compress their minerals and earn ISK easier, more compressed ore flows to the markets. It's a bit like this graph - http://www.freemathhelp.com/images/lessons/graph1.gif . Currently Citadel compression is useful for groups that are on the right side - the large groups, while we are dropping the guys from the left - the numerous solo and small group miners.
You can actually offline the POS in between refining sessions. I compress about 150.000 units of ice for the cost of about 100 units of Caldari fuel blocks. You compress a batch of ore and then let it go offline or just take it down and bring it with you. A small POS + compression array is only 8000 M3.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2361
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Posted - 2016.04.30 20:02:23 -
[16] - Quote
And a citadel owner can definitely get away with taxing less than the cost of 100 fuel blocks.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2478
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:12:19 -
[17] - Quote
ThePiachu Avar wrote:- You are in a corp, you put up a POS or a Citadel and compress your ore - this is only viable for a group or a multiboxer, since the fuel will otherwise eat into your profits. Some misconceptions here: As Angelique Duchemin has already pointed out, POS do not use any fuel if they are anchored when you do not use them. Keeping a POS constantly running is pointless unless you are in a very big group. Most other people offline their POS during downtimes to safe fuel and reduce exposure to risk. The fuel problem is the same for Citadels. Not the Citadels use the fuel, but the services. If you do not use your services, you just turn them off. In essence, Fuel is not a problem for any group size for any kind of structure. This also means that groups of any size can use Citadels equally. Security by obscurity to protect your POS (which actually worked really well) is gone anyways since the citadels will always show on your in-space brackets, so you can use an Astrahus to compress things and do not lose more money than you would with a POS.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:27:25 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:And a citadel owner can definitely get away with taxing less than the cost of 100 fuel blocks.
It would have to be a pretty small tax then considering that even 1% tax on 150.000 units of ice is would be over 400 million isk.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2361
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:45:38 -
[19] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:And a citadel owner can definitely get away with taxing less than the cost of 100 fuel blocks. It would have to be a pretty small tax then considering that even 1% tax on 150.000 units of ice is would be over 400 million isk.
And what's your point why would it need to be a large number? The tax also does not have to be a%it could just be a flat number like clones
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2361
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:46:34 -
[20] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:ThePiachu Avar wrote:- You are in a corp, you put up a POS or a Citadel and compress your ore - this is only viable for a group or a multiboxer, since the fuel will otherwise eat into your profits. Some misconceptions here: As Angelique Duchemin has already pointed out, POS do not use any fuel if they are anchored when you do not use them. Keeping a POS constantly running is pointless unless you are in a very big group. Most other people offline their POS during downtimes to save fuel and reduce exposure to risk. The fuel problem is the same for Citadels. Not the Citadels use the fuel, but the services. If you do not use your services, you just turn them off. In essence, Fuel is not a problem for any group size for any kind of structure. This also means that groups of any size can use Citadels equally. Security by obscurity to protect your POS (which actually worked really well) is gone anyways since the citadels will always show on your in-space brackets, so you can use an Astrahus to compress things and do not lose more money than you would with a POS.
Well wirth citadels you do lose about 3 days of fuel every time you online a service
Citadel worm hole tax
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ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.05.01 00:25:07 -
[21] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:And a citadel owner can definitely get away with taxing less than the cost of 100 fuel blocks. It would have to be a pretty small tax then considering that even 1% tax on 150.000 units of ice is would be over 400 million isk.
Compressed ore is often 5-10% more valuable on the market than regular ore, not to mention shipping costs going down a lot.
I don't see many people tracking this, so here is my spreadsheet for most ores:
https://imgur.com/DSz8Efh
All in all, charging 1% tax, whether in ISK or in kind, would not detract from miners' income much, but would be enough to sustain a compression citadel. |
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
88
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Posted - 2016.05.01 09:36:18 -
[22] - Quote
I too feel that there should be the option to set a tax on compression. There used to be a tax on compression, it was owning a rorq. When they changed that they opened compression up to anyone that wanted to take the risk of owning a POS.
There are lots of people that carry a small pos around with them and set it up just to compress. How many of those people would be willing to pay a small fee and not have to carry a tower around? I am sure there are some of them.There are also people in the middle ground that might welcome this change. They don't use compression often enough to justify the cost of a pos but they can justify paying a fee to use someone else compression array. The other group of people I haven't seen brought up are the people in NPC corps. They cannot setup a pos to compress at. I would be willing to bet they would happily pay a small fee to compress their ores to sell on the market.
Part of playing eve is doing your research. The smart miner will find a citadel that offers a low fee on compression or maybe even no fee. This change would add variety to the landscape of eve and I cannot see anything that it might take away. |
ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.05.02 22:09:40 -
[23] - Quote
Not only that, but being able to charge for compression in popular mining systems could spark a few wars between corporations - you might have some corporation want to move in to a system, destroy the existing citadels so that the miners would use theirs instead. More resources to fight over, more content, more fun. |
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