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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:17:00 -
[151]
All current T2 BPOs have to be turned into a 1 year worth of BPCs. This will hopefully make sure some BPO owners don't get completely screwed unless they based the return of investment for more than a year of production but then they sort of screwed up already.
Datacores, they need to be more available than now. Some are very hard to get since it hardly exist any agents offering them. The following ways should bring you datacores:
- Research points - Exploration loot - NPC commodity in lowsec, it gives risk vs reward and the way it works the prices will nicely be adjusted with demand. But more importantly, all types of datacores will be available in enough quantity to not limit the max number of inventions an item can get. Maybe even offer decryptor as well this way.
Slightly change the way the chance is calculated for created BPCs so that instead of getting 0 result you will get a really duff 1 run bpc with 2-3 times the material and build time of a normal BPC.
And then finally, change it so we can research BPCs or the material used for T2 ME/PE research today will become worthless.
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:17:00 -
[152]
another idea .... leave it like it is, seed t2 bpos at the market and use the whole invention stuff for T3
t1 and t2 bpos would be the same level (i think most of the owners have earned enough anyway) and T3 can be only build with invention, this way ccp has time to think about how to implement new stuff and they won¦t mess up someone business model (cause t3 stuff is not in game)
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:18:00 -
[153]
The current lottery system is tainted. It was also a ridiculous system, grossly unfair, and inherently unbalanced. The new invention system is not yet balanced, but I trust CCP to make it so over time. It's not easy to get a T2 BPC, but nor should it be so.
So, yes, I whole heartily agree with the proposed demise of the lottery system. On one condition, one that has been repeated here often enough: removal of all T2 BPOs. You may turn them into BPCs with a large number of runs if you wish, but over time (not too long a time ofcourse) all T2 BPOs should vanish from the game.
The whine about this last condition has been strong. Mostly from T2 BPO owners or people (corps) depending on them. Frankly, I feel no compassion for these players. They're currently holding virtual ISK making machines. They should have, or will have, plenty of time to earn back the investment they made to acquire the BPO (if any), if not, they're stupid. Lets face it, the time for easy ISK earning from T2 BPOs is, and should be over.
Again, yes, please, remove the lottery, remove the BPOs, balance invention further, and pretty please (with sugar on top), do it quickly! -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage |
Reachok
Amarr Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:32:00 -
[154]
Large alliances well known now to have had an unfair advantage when it comes to T2 BPO's will still maintain that unfair advantage if the BPO's remain in game. Everyone else will now have only T2 BPC's if you don't first convert all T2 BPO's to BPC's. They will still have the advantage for a short while until the BPC's run out, but will eventually be like everyone else in the game.
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babylonstew
Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:32:00 -
[155]
something else i just remembered when the exhumer bpos were released, there was an outcry becos only gallante agents gave them out. i believe it was ovuer who said it wasnt an issue becos there would be other bpos released to race specific agents in the future, or words to that effect. if the l;ottery goes, thats just made a huge imbalance based on which race you choose to run R&D agents with. whats goign to happen about that?
Originally by: High Sierra note to self - don't ever provide ANYONE with quoteable material EVER AGAIN.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:34:00 -
[156]
Having just finished getting my four research agents going, I'm a little depressed to hear about this.
But oh well, such is life in MMOs. Things change and hopefully for the better.
As to turning off the lottery, my only comment would be that leaving the old BPOs in the game would not be good. ------------------- Ignorance |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:39:00 -
[157]
Remove the BPO lottery just like you removed instas. But in addition, also remove all the current BPOs just like you added warp to 0km to compensate for the removal of instas.
Turn all the existing BPOs into 200 run BPCs or something and be done with it. You have to stop somewhere, and leaving the existing super rich BPO owners with the only copies of the BPOs that will ever exist in the history of the game is the wrong way to go.
I had tons of instas, a major investment in ISK. My navigation library was worth over a billion ISK easily. Warp to 0km showed up, my instas were erased and I had to suck it up. The same should happen with T2 BPOs. Change everything over to Invention and ditch the existing BPOs. Problem solved.
Everyone is having a stupid contest, and you're in first place! |
Shadow Lightbringer
Nightghosts Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:39:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Akita T By the way the T1 market works just fine, with all the "free" BPOs. Yes, profit margins are low, but they do exist, and in some cases they're even more profitable over time as T2 BPOs (just ask Dark Shikari for instance).
Using the CURRENT system to obtain BPCs and only BPCs, and never ever any BPOs is just... how to put it... idiotic ? Instead allow invention to obtain both BPOs and BPCs.
A BPC Invention job:
* should *ALWAYS* end up in success * the number of runs obtained should be comparable to the number of runs on the T1 BPC used, up to yes, even max runs in some cases * the only problem with it would be that the ME/PE values would WILDLY fluctuate, with things like, for instance, -129 ME and -213 PE on a 793-run module BPC obtained (when before, in the current system, it would have been a failed job).
A BPO Invention job however: * will USE UP THE INTERFACE TOO IN THE ATTEMPT * uses a fresh T1 BPO (ME0/PE0 only) * will not have a 100% success rate, but actually a pretty low chance of success, say 15-25% at most * requires at least one T2 item in the invention process, even allow multiple items to be used to increase end ME/PE * ends up with a slight negative ME/PE, depending on amount of T2 items used up in the invention process and some chance factors (always negative ME/PE anyway, just not too harsh)
This should balance out itself quite nicely: BPC invention is faster, easier, offers instant and guaranteed results, doesn't use up the interface, but less effective and each product ends up costing a bit more (at least you have access to it)... while on the other hand BPO invention is risky, costly, does not guarantee results, but once you "make it" you generally end up with a much more flexible
After having read this whole thread, I have to say Akita T's idea is the only one I like so far.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:46:00 -
[159]
Regaining Trust?
Pfft...I'll trust CCP when they deliver a fun and 'balanced' game.
Tech II BPOs have been an imbalance for God knows how long and Oveur's blog just made them more valuable since he states now there will never be more BPOs handed out at the same time alluding to existing BPOs remaining. GREAT JOB EINSTEIN - How does that solve the problem?
Invention isn't worth the time or ISK currently - maybe if the chances were improved and the output more varied, in terms of higher run BPCs and competitive ME levels to BPOs, then more people would risk it. Until Invention becomes potentially profitable (which might take massively inflated tech 2 prices which would only happen if BPOs were removed!) then it will never take off.
As described you've just solidified the position of all the fat-cat BPO owners - before they whine - I don't care if they've saved months to buy one. It favours people who started playing the game earlier and saving earlier (with few exceptions) who are now cashing in on the later joining players who want and need those tech 2 items to compete.
So - My feedback condensed:
Go for it - Remove or change the lottery to BPC wins. Improve the balancing of invention to make it more accessable/profitabe. Remove existing BPOs.
If you do go ahead though - EITHER you remove the existing BPOs (replace with limited run copies) or I'll be cancelling subscription in disgust (see line 2). No ultimatum intended - you'll do what you please CCP I know...Just stating a fact.
As a player with 1 years RPs accrued on 5 agents I'd honestly be happy to recieve a BPO today in the lottery that was converted to a limited run BPC tomorrow so long as all BPOs left the game. Fairness, and equality to all is balance - thats the only way you regain trust.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:48:00 -
[160]
All CCP needs to do is seed ALL the stupid BPO's onto the market! Not in ones or twos, but seeded.
This stupid lottery was WRONG when you made it up, it was WRONG when sombody helped himself, and it is still WRONG today.
Face it you shot yourself in the foot with a lottery.....
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Noumena
the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:55:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Noumena on 22/02/2007 13:23:31 i currently see invention as a means of supplying your corp with T2 product without having to go through the main dealer. In that respect, it could not support the markets needs.
some changes needed would need analysis of the T2 market as it stands currently, because Invention will have support atleast those numbers. If it doesnt, you'll drive up the cost of everything. You already know this.
One thing im concerned about is that you can only get 4 datacores of any which type currently. When datacores for modules and ammo should be beefed up in comparison with ship cores. In fact, i'm sure you'll have to tweak with all the rates to see the invention can fill the gap successfully. If ya need an analyst contact me in game....bah! you prolly already have a mathematician on staff to crunch your numbers.
personally, i think this is a tremendous idea. Prior to this, corps boasting a production division had a boundary condition applied to it. some corps had T2 bpo's, and some members had T2 bpo's....and some corps had none at all. If you are to promote advancement in ALL Industrial divisions and corps, then Beefing up Invention is a must!
:EDIT:
This guy has a good plan, maybe need some number tweaking....but at the core....good idea.
Originally by: Akita T By the way the T1 market works just fine, with all the "free" BPOs. Yes, profit margins are low, but they do exist, and in some cases they're even more profitable over time as T2 BPOs (just ask Dark Shikari for instance).
Using the CURRENT system to obtain BPCs and only BPCs, and never ever any BPOs is just... how to put it... idiotic ? Instead allow invention to obtain both BPOs and BPCs.
A BPC Invention job:
* should *ALWAYS* end up in success * the number of runs obtained should be comparable to the number of runs on the T1 BPC used, up to yes, even max runs in some cases * the only problem with it would be that the ME/PE values would WILDLY fluctuate, with things like, for instance, -129 ME and -213 PE on a 793-run module BPC obtained (when before, in the current system, it would have been a failed job).
A BPO Invention job however: * will USE UP THE INTERFACE TOO IN THE ATTEMPT * uses a fresh T1 BPO (ME0/PE0 only) * will not have a 100% success rate, but actually a pretty low chance of success, say 15-25% at most * requires at least one T2 item in the invention process, even allow multiple items to be used to increase end ME/PE * ends up with a slight negative ME/PE, depending on amount of T2 items used up in the invention process and some chance factors (always negative ME/PE anyway, just not too harsh)
This should balance out itself quite nicely: BPC invention is faster, easier, offers instant and guaranteed results, doesn't use up the interface, but less effective and each product ends up costing a bit more (at least you have access to it)... while on the other hand BPO invention is risky, costly, does not guarantee results, but once you "make it" you generally end up with a much more flexible
I can honestly say i don't own T2 BPO's. Do i want them destroyed?...hell no. This is because i would like to see my own corp get some T2 BPO's finally. Alot of other folks would too im sure. what are the implications of this though?
What is T2? I mean at its theoretical concept, what is it? When you tear away all discussion and labels associated with it...it is SPECIALIZATION. This is what it should be for Industrial players, Wings, and corps. I dont expect every corp out there to have every T2 BPO, aside from rather large Industrial focused corps/alliances. for smaller corps however, we should be able to specialize and focus on a certain area of T2 production...
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Winters Chill
Amarr Scavenger Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:08:00 -
[162]
Switcheroo
I see alot of good points above heres an addition thought from me:
IMHO you guys seem to get thing backwards:- Example:
How to get a tech 2 BPO?:-
Speak to some research agents, do missions, collect RPs, pray.
How to get a tech 2 BPC?:
Use Exploration to find a suitable horde of loot, fight the badguys, pray you get the right loot. Wash rinse repeat. Spend RP on getting research items (or buy on the market for silly amounts of money). THEN process you materials in a lab, PRAY that it actaully produces something.
My Points:- 1) For some reason the invention route seems alot harder and alot more involved to get some thats worth considerably less.
2) I don't understand why its not reversed. Have agents dish out crappy tech2 BPCs (obviously upping that chances of recieving one). This way empire huggers have a chance of making some tech2 items. But not forming huge cartels.
3) Why not have invention lead to tech2 BPOs of various perminent efficiency. Obviously reducing the chances of getting one, but for a BPO most people will try.ALso make the invention BPOs LESS efficient than BPCs. The balance would be the potential to create items ad infinitum. Invention clearly takes more time and effort so why reward the lazy empire agent runners with a chance for a BPO when people who have tried invention have lost hundreds of millions of isk for nothing?
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Harm Gently
Gallente Naughty 40 The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:11:00 -
[163]
As some people already have said, best thing would be to completely remove all existing t2 bpos. Doing that would be a huge incentive for everyone to get invention to work as intended.
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Karu Manara
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:17:00 -
[164]
Anyone who thinks of removing T2 BPOs is a ******* idiot. Period. That includes any CCP employees.
The simple and easy solution is to make invention work 100% for BPCs and extend invention to work for BPOs as well -- but with a 10% chance.
Everything needs to work, too. Drones, ammunition, ships, modules, rigs.
And ffs, seed the goddammed container BPOs!
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Innywan Nottmea
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:19:00 -
[165]
Do *NOT* remove T2 BPOs. You will kill monopolies, yes. But you will drive prices higher and higher to where T2 will never be the "baseline"
Make invention work for BPOs and BPCs.
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Arte
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:24:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Arte on 22/02/2007 13:23:38 In my opinion, the changes with regards to invention are the right way to go. I think it should be easier, by way of not having to have fingers in so many pies to achieve results but the backbone of the system is heading in the right direction.
Whilst I appreciate that it is the mechanics behind invention that allows hard work to be rewarded for those so inclined, and to also create a system that is auditable, I do think though that they should go hand in hand with the release of limited run BPCs - not BPOs -straight from research agents for T2 items/ships as well as the componants required for invention.
The balance should be in the form of the cost of LPs for them.
With the 'shop front' approach to cashing on your LPs, this might enable you to also choose between
a) 'Buying' lots of smaller items (componants for several goes at invention)
or
b) One big item (a BPC)
Where the market value and your skills at invention will determine what the most valuable option is at any given moment in time.
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Wagner84
Minmatar Secteur Armement
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:25:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Wagner84 on 22/02/2007 14:44:33 Keep the lottery, keep the invention and introduce the T3 !
All thoses players with hundrer thousands RP will have their chance with T3 R&D agent !
-------------------------------------------------- Try the Minmatar way of life. |
d026
Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:32:00 -
[168]
i really dont understand why you want to stop seeding bpos but then not removing the existing ones. this completely makes no sense to me. if you going to introduce the invention/reverse engeneering the only way to get 2t bpos why should there be a few lucky ones who do not have to go through those processes? anyway if you remove the existing bpos this would be damn fine chance:)
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:34:00 -
[169]
What happens to existing T2 BPO's already out in the population?
If nothing, then WTF?!
You simply allow the rich to get richer, whilst the rest of us scrounge for scraps. BPO Owners will sill have an infinite and efficient source of items.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Donrell
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:40:00 -
[170]
Since everybody and his/her dog is commenting on this, why not me too.
The plans for invention sounds nice and good. But make sure there is a constant supply of all T2 items on the market. Just like with the T1 market. And I think you need T2 bpo's for that. Even if it means some people have a 'isk-printing device'.(Alto with the last lottery and the next one, supply will go up and drive prices down.) The most wanted T2 stuff will have a base supply thruw the bpo's. If they are priced too high, people will invent them. And thus keep prices for them on a normal level. For items that aren't in high demand we'd still have to have a fair supply. And the bpo can make that base supply. If the profit margin on them gets too high people will notice and invent them. But it'd have to profitable. Meaning current prices are insane(1000% profit margin) or there aren't any on the market.
Just killing off the current bpo's will basicly mean the t2 items that aren't in high demand(About 80% of all the items??) wont be produced or in low numbers with a huge profit margin.
Please make sure that there always is a fair supply of ALL t2 items.
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Kerdrak
Amarr 3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:41:00 -
[171]
I¦m sure CCP will remove Tech II BPO. Otherwise, they will fail again... ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
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altambra
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:42:00 -
[172]
You need to make invention more cost-effective. Ideally it would involve some thinking on the part of the player rather than just collecting items, pressing a button, and observing the failure.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:51:00 -
[173]
The whole market system should be bucked sideways a bit with the introduction of player named equipment manufacturing. Let people research their T1 BPOs to stretch out certain attributes at the extent of others, following the ME style system of diminishing returns.
So for example, Merch Industrial Thorax's would sell with 5% more CPU, but 5% less powergrid, with it becoming exponentially more difficult to get a better fit upto some logical limit. This would let corps and individuals specialize their ships and create unique markets of their own.
Might be hard to balance though.
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:09:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Donrell Please make sure that there always is a fair supply of ALL t2 items.
Supply and demand, as soon as some item rise in price (profit margin) a bunch of inventors will take the opportunity to plug that hole until next item become high in demand. Don't underestimate the market forces, especially on an unregulated market without supply limitations.
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Potvora Oskliva
AquariusArt
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:12:00 -
[175]
So... if the Invention (which sucks at this point since the costs of it compared to printing ISK from T2 BPOs makes it no match) is supposed to be the main supply of T2 stuff....
Then tell me.... How do I invent T2 Ammo... T2 Drones? Hmm? Anyone?
And the T2 BPO ISK Printers keep rolling....
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:21:00 -
[176]
Of course, the alternate is to simply release the T2 BPO's onto the market, at a marked up price (double the original BPO Price?)
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Ashraaf
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:27:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Ashraaf on 22/02/2007 14:36:28 I really hope that all the item with a TII could be done by invention that include Hulk, ice mining...
I don't want to have to make 90j each day for 4 items visiting all my agents. With low sec area, Empire war.... it's time loss for player
I hope that i don't have to go to cosmos 0.0, exploring region i don't have access and never have access, have to pay a lot to access...
I really hope that's invention could be possible for everyone. Not for the very few that have access to special zone
At the moment invention is just loosing time, spending money, that took lot of time, lot of ISK, you need lot of skill point for a superb limited BPC with crappy ME, Poor PE and negative ;) Run...
Give player who invest time in invention BPC with far less material than the BPO. Less time to build... So you really have competition, you really have an incentive for player to spend time in invention.
If player ant to do the PvP role of market, invention and production he don't have to meet the handicap of pirate to
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:41:00 -
[178]
To create a level playing field the following would be needed.
1) remove tech II BPO's ( maybe by converting to 1000 run bpc's or 2) allow invention to be performed on bpo's ( reduced chance, much higher cost , but a chance to get a tech II bpo )
unless either of these are done then the beta testers will always have an unfair advantage even if a diminished one.
2. would of course eventually lead to supply of tech II materials being the deciding factor on build costs and would put most of the profit into the hands of lowsec moon miners etc. would lead to fighting over control of resources - all good imo everyone has a chance to compete.
On the plus side we should see the cost of datacores drop sharply as players consume there now otherwise redundant rp.
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Savio
Caldari The Knights Of Camelot DeStInY.
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:41:00 -
[179]
if this is gonna work u would have to make all the t2 lottery bpo¦s into a bpc! or else the older players will always have a "print isk" function that new players cant get..
. Need a Sign? Click Here |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:43:00 -
[180]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 Of course, the alternate is to simply release the T2 BPO's onto the market, at a marked up price (double the original BPO Price?)
Let's see original BPO cost 0 ISK, so double that... Think I take 5 of each please.
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