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kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
26
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:14:34 -
[1] - Quote
This is a skill idea is meant to create a scorch earth strategy, it's a skill directly related to a ships self destruct, namely, it allows a player to manually detonate their ships and destroying significantly MORE of their cargo hold, denying a kill mail, and possibly a smart-bomb like aoe attack.
So here is how i figure it, the skill requirements will be Science level 3, power grid management level 3, and energy pulse weapons level 3.
the skill should be a x4 difficulty skill, each skill level will increase the cargo destructiveness of the self destruct (i was thinking 15-20% increase cargo destruction per level) , a additional idea would require a change to a ships self destruct, in that if a player initiates a self destruct it starts a timer until self destruct (and maybe prompt a on grid local message such XX ship is overloading their reactor, basically telling everyone that they are gonna self destruct in X amount of seconds and if they want the killmail / significant loot they will need to kill that player before the self destruct goes off.) and that each skill level will decrease that timer.
Now the AOE- if such a aoe is added, here is what i was thinking, damage type will be racial specific. The raw damage should be based around the ship that is destroyed, so a small frigate will have a small aoe and will be relatively low damage, where as self destructing a titan should have a HUGE aoe with significant damage. Also the self destruct timers will also be different, so the bigger the ship, the bigger the boom, but the longer it takes for that boom.
This is a basic idea, the reason for it is to overhaul the self destruct to actually give it a function other then if you end up trapping yourself in a WH, to also allow player to enact scorch earth strategy if they are carrying valuable cargo to deny that cargo to enemies. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2483
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:17:57 -
[2] - Quote
kardjaval wrote:This is a skill idea is meant to create a scorch earth strategy, it's a skill directly related to a ships self destruct, namely, it allows a player to manually detonate their ships and destroying significantly MORE of their cargo hold, denying a kill mail, and possibly a smart-bomb like aoe attack.
So here is how i figure it, the skill requirements will be Science level 3, power grid management level 3, and energy pulse weapons level 3.
the skill should be a x4 difficulty skill, each skill level will increase the cargo destructiveness of the self destruct (i was thinking 15-20% increase cargo destruction per level) , a additional idea would require a change to a ships self destruct, in that if a player initiates a self destruct it starts a timer until self destruct (and maybe prompt a on grid local message such XX ship is overloading their reactor, basically telling everyone that they are gonna self destruct in X amount of seconds and if they want the killmail / significant loot they will need to kill that player before the self destruct goes off.) and that each skill level will decrease that timer.
Now the AOE- if such a aoe is added, here is what i was thinking, damage type will be racial specific. The raw damage should be based around the ship that is destroyed, so a small frigate will have a small aoe and will be relatively low damage, where as self destructing a titan should have a HUGE aoe with significant damage. Also the self destruct timers will also be different, so the bigger the ship, the bigger the boom, but the longer it takes for that boom.
This is a basic idea, the reason for it is to overhaul the self destruct to actually give it a function other then if you end up trapping yourself in a WH, to also allow player to enact scorch earth strategy if they are carrying valuable cargo to deny that cargo to enemies. Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you?
Why Do They Gank?
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kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
26
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:24:50 -
[3] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:kardjaval wrote:This is a skill idea is .... Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Why are you considered "beaten" if your ship is still alive?
the idea here is just what i said, scorched earth, if players don't bring enough firepower to bear on their target, that's on them, that's poor management of the gank, from the victims perspective, it allows the option and the satisfaction, that if you make the decision quickly enough and if the timer is able to count down, not only do you deny your enemy the satisfaction of kill mail, but you also make your salvage worth a whole lot less. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2819
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:30:51 -
[4] - Quote
Can it be cancelled?
What is the drawback of using it? |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2483
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:42:13 -
[5] - Quote
kardjaval wrote:Black Pedro wrote:kardjaval wrote:This is a skill idea is .... Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Why are you considered "beaten" if your ship is still alive? the idea here is just what i said, scorched earth, if players don't bring enough firepower to bear on their target, that's on them, that's poor management of the gank, from the victims perspective, it allows the option and the satisfaction, that if you make the decision quickly enough and if the timer is able to count down, not only do you deny your enemy the satisfaction of kill mail, but you also make your salvage worth a whole lot less. Sure, but how does that make the game better? Should not the victor get the prize if they outplay an opponent and force them to self-destruct? Why would it be better that someone can deny another player a win just out of spite? Wouldn't everyone just do that all the time then and no one would be getting killmails or loot any more?
How much firepower should players bring to guarantee a kill do you think fair?
Why Do They Gank?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
9889
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Posted - 2016.05.11 19:24:43 -
[6] - Quote
If I recall correctly (someone fact check me on this) self destructing your ship already decreases the odds that loot will drop (standard odds are 50%).
And no AOE effects for you. Keep in mind, there is always someone who has a lot of money and likes making things burn for giggles. Under your system I could buy a frieghter, start the self destruct timer, warp to the undock of a trade hub, and wipe out a whole bunch of people in one go... maybe even their pods too if I coordinate with a friend!
Disallow it on station? Okay... I'll take my fun to stargates then. Oh... disallowed there too? Fine, I'll run my suicide bombing ship into high-sec Incursion fleets. Disallowed in deadspace? Well then... what is the point? You have essentially eliminated all the major flashpoints of conflict.
Some friendly advice; when you come up with an idea, look at it through the prism of someone who wants to use the mechanic in an offensive way and highly destructive way against other players.
And you have to keep adding restrictions/exceptions to make the idea work as intended, take the idea back to the drawing board.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
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Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises Goonswarm Federation
468
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Posted - 2016.05.11 20:13:40 -
[7] - Quote
Timed self destruct is there to purposefully allow enemies to kill you before your cowardly protection of your KB takes place. As to cargo drops, jetcans are still instantly poppable I believe. Jetcan, shoot jetcan, start unplugging your implants...
Shah has already pointed out why aoe suicides are a bad idea, and Pedro has pointed out you just would rather wreck your toys than share them with better/luckier players. I'll at least humor your desire to limit their gains.
Humorously Unsupported
Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
755
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Posted - 2016.05.11 21:06:17 -
[8] - Quote
kardjaval wrote: denying a kill mail, and possibly a smart-bomb like aoe attack.
Sounds like the ultimate butthurt tool for noobs who cannot deal with loss.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3241
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Posted - 2016.05.11 23:50:41 -
[9] - Quote
I was under the impression self destruct used to prevent any drops but it was changed (don't know why).
Im all for a self destruct that takes time and completely destroys everything within. But no aoe and it still gives everyone a kill mail (maybe with something saying the self destruct was successful).
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2567
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Posted - 2016.05.12 05:11:29 -
[10] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I was under the impression self destruct used to prevent any drops but it was changed (don't know why).
Im all for a self destruct that takes time and completely destroys everything within. But no aoe and it still gives everyone a kill mail (maybe with something saying the self destruct was successful).
Sure. Through in destruction of the pod as an automatic drawback and there's no problem with this per se. There's just no real point either. |
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Kieron VonDeux
212
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Posted - 2016.05.12 05:51:52 -
[11] - Quote
Its topics like this that make me ponder what Eve Online would be like without KMs and the resultant KB stats. Granted many would leave due to that, but many have already left due to it.
But like all theories of what could have been, no one could truly know.
One thing is for sure, too many players obsess over them. Their own, and others'.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2953
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Posted - 2016.05.12 10:50:08 -
[12] - Quote
Howabout make it a special industrial that has this function, so everyone knows that you probably aren't a loot pi+Ķata, and you also are flying a ship with its attributes balanced accordingly. Then you have to make the choice to have this ability or not have it before you undock.
They still get the killmail (if they have landed any shots), but none of the loot drops.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Kieron VonDeux
213
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Posted - 2016.05.12 13:17:37 -
[13] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Howabout make it a special industrial that has this function, so everyone knows that you probably aren't a loot pi+Ķata, and you also are flying a ship with its attributes balanced accordingly. Then you have to make the choice to have this ability or not have it before you undock.
They still get the killmail (if they have landed any shots), but none of the loot drops.
I agree, loot drops for all should be more limited to something like charges and cargo, not fitted mods. Fitted mods should require salvaging.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
831
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Posted - 2016.05.12 13:56:17 -
[14] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Historically speaking many ships were scuttled when it became obvious that they were going to lose, and they were scuttled specifically to prevent the "victor" from receiving the spoils of that victory. Going through history there are god only knows how many times entire towns / cities were burned to the ground to prevent the "victors" from getting the valuable things in that town, in fact this is where the term "scorched earth" came from.
I hate the AOE portion of this idea but they need to return self destruct to a 100% complete loss of pod, ship, fittings and all cargo. Why? game play options and yes Black Pedro I know you will consider this a nerf to ganking and you are correct in some ways it is. But the way I see this if the player flying the ship is willing to loose it ALL to prevent you from having any of it that is as valid a game play option as your right to try and gank them in hopes that some of it will drop.
Kill mails and kill boards the greatest evil in the EvE universe. It drives some to kill easy targets simply to have a large number of kills. It drives others to kill easy targets to ensure their kill board stats are positive. It drives others to avoid any and all possible conflict in which they are not 100% sure that they will be victorious because they do not want the loss on their kill board. And the one that baffles me the most is the huge volume of free intel that the kill mail / kill board system makes readily available to any and all who take the time to look. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2954
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Posted - 2016.05.12 19:39:52 -
[15] - Quote
Kieron VonDeux wrote:I agree, loot drops for all should be more limited to something like charges and cargo, not fitted mods. Fitted mods should require salvaging. I didn't say anything like that, but that's an amazing idea! You should write up a post on that. Perhaps you can look into the wreck to see what modules are salvageable from it, or check the killmail if you have access to it.
Donnachadh wrote:And the one that baffles me the most is the huge volume of free intel that the kill mail / kill board system makes readily available to any and all who take the time to look. Intel, not free intel. If you have to bother to scan killboards for the intel, it isn't free. Please stop using the term 'free intel' when you're talking about 'intel'.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
834
|
Posted - 2016.05.13 05:38:48 -
[16] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Please stop using the term 'free intel' when you're talking about 'intel'. No I will not stop using the term "free" because it is FREE. So here we go to the dictionary. Please note at the very top of the page listed first under the title SIMPLE DEFINITION. "not costing any money"
You are not required to pay any money or ISK to gather or to look at the kill boards so the intel is free. You do not have to spend any time gathering the information so the intel is free. The few minutes of time required to look at the kill boards in the only investment you make to get this intel. And even at that the dictionary clearly shows us that time is not a determining factor in whether something is free or not.
Even if we set the whole FREE argument aside you have missed the most critical point. General Patton once stated that the only thing more important than gathering intel (information) on your opponent is to prevent your opponent from gathering intel (information) on you. And yet here in EvE all you PvP types not only give away volumes of intel about yourselves you even fight to maintain the right to give it away via the kill mail system. |
Glitch Online
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Silent Infinity
5
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Posted - 2016.05.13 13:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Please stop using the term 'free intel' when you're talking about 'intel'. No I will not stop using the term "free" because it is FREE. So here we go to the dictionary. Please note at the very top of the page listed first under the title SIMPLE DEFINITION. "not costing any money" You are not required to pay any money or ISK to gather or to look at the kill boards so the intel is free. You do not have to spend any time gathering the information so the intel is free. The few minutes of time required to look at the kill boards in the only investment you make to get this intel. And even at that the dictionary clearly shows us that time is not a determining factor in whether something is free or not. Even if we set the whole FREE argument aside you have missed the most critical point. General Patton once stated that the only thing more important than gathering intel (information) on your opponent is to prevent your opponent from gathering intel (information) on you. And yet here in EvE all you PvP types not only give away volumes of intel about yourselves you even fight to maintain the right to give it away via the kill mail system.
Well said. |
Kieron VonDeux
217
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Posted - 2016.05.13 13:35:56 -
[18] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:I agree, loot drops for all should be more limited to something like charges and cargo, not fitted mods. Fitted mods should require salvaging. I didn't say anything like that, but that's an amazing idea! You should write up a post on that. Perhaps you can look into the wreck to see what modules are salvageable from it, or check the killmail if you have access to it.
Sorry, I misread your post, I was half asleep.
I will look into making a new thread on that but I'm fairly certain it will get spammed by those who would rather loot their blue and purple mods than need to find a salvager to get them.
As with many things in this game, maybe if it had started out that way.
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5072
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Posted - 2016.05.14 01:21:40 -
[19] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Because the tears would be priceless...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
106
|
Posted - 2016.05.14 10:01:57 -
[20] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:kardjaval wrote:This is a skill idea is meant to create a scorch earth strategy, it's a skill directly related to a ships self destruct, namely, it allows a player to manually detonate their ships and destroying significantly MORE of their cargo hold, denying a kill mail, and possibly a smart-bomb like aoe attack.
So here is how i figure it, the skill requirements will be Science level 3, power grid management level 3, and energy pulse weapons level 3.
the skill should be a x4 difficulty skill, each skill level will increase the cargo destructiveness of the self destruct (i was thinking 15-20% increase cargo destruction per level) , a additional idea would require a change to a ships self destruct, in that if a player initiates a self destruct it starts a timer until self destruct (and maybe prompt a on grid local message such XX ship is overloading their reactor, basically telling everyone that they are gonna self destruct in X amount of seconds and if they want the killmail / significant loot they will need to kill that player before the self destruct goes off.) and that each skill level will decrease that timer.
Now the AOE- if such a aoe is added, here is what i was thinking, damage type will be racial specific. The raw damage should be based around the ship that is destroyed, so a small frigate will have a small aoe and will be relatively low damage, where as self destructing a titan should have a HUGE aoe with significant damage. Also the self destruct timers will also be different, so the bigger the ship, the bigger the boom, but the longer it takes for that boom.
This is a basic idea, the reason for it is to overhaul the self destruct to actually give it a function other then if you end up trapping yourself in a WH, to also allow player to enact scorch earth strategy if they are carrying valuable cargo to deny that cargo to enemies. Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you?
Because that's life. Tough luck. ;-) |
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Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
106
|
Posted - 2016.05.14 10:03:09 -
[21] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Can it be cancelled?
What is the drawback of using it?
You loose your ship?? Duh. Lol |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2956
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Posted - 2016.05.14 12:23:22 -
[22] - Quote
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Can it be cancelled?
What is the drawback of using it? You loose your ship?? Duh. Lol Assuming it's only going to be used when the player would otherwise already be self-destructing, this is not actually a drawback of using it.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
29
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Posted - 2016.05.14 12:36:34 -
[23] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Can it be cancelled?
What is the drawback of using it? You loose your ship?? Duh. Lol Assuming it's only going to be used when the player would otherwise already be self-destructing, this is not actually a drawback of using it. hmm i have a plan for that. |
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
29
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Posted - 2016.05.14 12:52:02 -
[24] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:kardjaval wrote:Black Pedro wrote:kardjaval wrote:This is a skill idea is .... Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Why are you considered "beaten" if your ship is still alive? the idea here is just what i said, scorched earth, if players don't bring enough firepower to bear on their target, that's on them, that's poor management of the gank, from the victims perspective, it allows the option and the satisfaction, that if you make the decision quickly enough and if the timer is able to count down, not only do you deny your enemy the satisfaction of kill mail, but you also make your salvage worth a whole lot less. Sure, but how does that make the game better? Should not the victor get the prize if they outplay an opponent and force them to self-destruct? Why would it be better that someone can deny another player a win just out of spite? Wouldn't everyone just do that all the time then and no one would be getting killmails or loot any more? How much firepower should players bring to guarantee a kill do you think fair? if you paid attention to my post, i already put int a time requirement, in that it would take X amount of seconds from when a ship activates their self destruct to when they actually blow up, as such, someone who is about to die, simply won't be able to self destruct EVERY time they get attacked, |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
837
|
Posted - 2016.05.14 13:04:28 -
[25] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Been thinking about this part and I finally realized why it has stuck with me.
It would not discourage those who PvP for the personal challenge of trying to beat others in a real fight. You know the PvP players that actually go out looking for others who want to go toe to toe and shoot at each other. The only ones this idea would serve to discourage are those of you who call yourselves PvP players, but in reality you only attack those who cannot fight back. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2495
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Posted - 2016.05.14 14:45:46 -
[26] - Quote
People, people. Do you even know what kind of game you are playing?
Donnachadh wrote:It would not discourage those who PvP for the personal challenge of trying to beat others in a real fight. You know the PvP players that actually go out looking for others who want to go toe to toe and shoot at each other. The only ones this idea would serve to discourage are those of you who call yourselves PvP players, but in reality you only attack those who cannot fight back. Shooting other players to take their stuff is one of the most fundamental and primal motivations for this game. Some players want their target to put up a fight, other don't care, but the desire to take resources from another player without their explicit consent is one of the central pillar of this game which gives the virtual items we acquire and build meaning. If you could not lose items, no one would want to buy the stuff you grind or make.
If you allowed players to 'opt-out' of losing their stuff to another player, where would be the motivation for piratical-minded players to go out and generate content? I know the OP didn't exactly propose that, but I hope you can now see why this proposal has exactly zero chance of ever being implemented. CCP is trying to put more reasons for us shoot one another into the game, not remove them, and letting players prevent the winner of a battle from profiting from their victory for no reason other that to allow them to indulge in some petulant spite, isn't going to happen. At a minimum you would have to make an argument how this would make the game better - add interesting complexity, generate content, get people to undock, or something that would make more things happen in this game to offset the obvious decrease in activity such a change would bring.
Practically all of Eve is engineered to put the players in direct conflict or competition. This idea does nothing but reduce the motivation for some players to go out and play the game. Why shoot someone if I get nothing from it? Sure, there are other reasons to shoot players, but certainly loot and killmails are two of the primary motivators.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Because the tears would be priceless... Do you also have the habit of turning over the chess board when you are losing because "the tears" of your opponent "would be priceless"? Sorry, friend, you lost and you are not going to get such an ability to soothe your feelings of impotence. Time to grow up and give the player that beat you the customary 'gf' instead of indulging in childish fantasies. You win some, and you lose some, but if you want "tears" you are going to have to go out and earn them rather than begging CCP to give you an "I-win" button to stop those bad pirates.
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Why should enemies that have beaten you fair and square be denied loot and a killmail? Wouldn't that discourage some of them from trying to PvP you? Because that's life. Tough luck. ;-) What are you even talking about? This idea has no chance of ever being implemented. Players are always going to be able to act as pirates and take your stuff no matter how many times carebears come to these forums and whine and complain how unfair that is or that pirates are bad people for not wanting "a real challenge". You are intended by the game developer to be served up as content for these pirates (Build Your Dreams, Wreck Their Dreams remember?) so you better deal with it.
Your advice is good however for the OP and several of the other posters in this thread. That's life and tough luck: Eve Online is a non-consensual PvP sandbox in which piratical acts are not only allowed, but intended game play. That means that pirates are always going to get a chance to keep your stuff and send you a killmail. Accept that or go play something else because that is just the way Eve Online is.
Why Do They Gank?
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