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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:25:00 -
[1]
Whether you realize it or not, Real Money Trading has an impact on nearly everything you do in EVE and ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
To give you more insight into the impact of ISK buying on EVE, the community, customer service and potentially your account, GM Guard has a new and rather lengthy Blog with that information and much more. Check out The Price of ISK.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Eldo Davip
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:39:00 -
[2]
Originally by: GM Guard Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency. The players involved bought a large number of expensive blueprints over a long period of time with the purpose of monopolizing the market on certain items. They attempted to drive prices as high as possible so that they could skim more money off the top and sell more ISK on Ebay
Damn. Hope's they are some good BPOs so they get reseeded ___
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER
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Delphi Denon
The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:43:00 -
[3]
First player!
Heres hoping that people stop buying ISK and bring the game back to a level playing field. Thanks for the blog GM Guard
/Delphi
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Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:48:00 -
[4]
An interesting article and quite insightful. Thanks!
I wonder though, if the GTC sales that are allowed don't bring the same kind of problems with it. You can buy the time code and sell it in eve for isk, while a bit more work to get large amounts of isk, i still think that it's possible to buy success in eve with RL cash. While it's very nice from the perspective of CCP (get the money instead of the isk farmers), some of the points made sound hollow (or at least incomplete). It's understandable that such a service is wanted by CCP and a large portion of the veteran players, it's just a bit strange that this aspect of converting $$$ into isk is left untouched...
ps. not meant as an attack.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:55:00 -
[5]
Well, I'm not a big fan of isk selling or anything but your arguments seem to have a few holes.
"Money(isk) is power in Eve" well, it seems that people that afford alts or more leasure time DO have an edge. This is both the direct and in-direct result of having more rl money. I'd also point out that due to EVE's skill system isk does have its limits. Buying a titan isn't going to get you very far if you can't fly it.
Your second point, that isk selling is an incentive to doing anything to get Isk is obviously true but seems to contradict the first point. After all if Isk is power doesn't every player already have incentive? In the example you give of a consortium holding BPOS and driving up prices, this seems like a strategy that players would try just ot make the isk themselves. I don't see why the selling of isk is really part of the equation.
As to Macro-mining I'm sure your correct as to the scale of the operations etc. but the effect of low mineral prices is hard to understand. Sure it makes mining less profitable, but it lowers production costs and makes mission loot less profitable as well. Not saying I think its a good thing just that its hard to say what its effects are on the EVE economy as a whole are.
Obvioulsy account hacking is just completly wrong. But this argument also losses some of its luster when you really think about it. Just because a economic activity can provide criminals a opportunity that is no argument against the original activity. For instance, the auto industry makes cars and spare parts and criminals steal those cars. Thats hardly an argument for not making cars.
And the last aargument is of course circular. Claiming that the efforts to stop isk selling is itself a reason to stop isk selling. Heh.
Again, I'm not a proponent of these activites, just wanted to point out that its not so cut and dried. Here's some additional thoughts:
Since EVE is one Universe a new player could argue that buying isk is one of the few ways he could compete against long time players who have huge amounts of capital built up. Of course the long time player could argue that he deserves this hard won edge but thats something of a different argument.
Isk transfers for ANY sort of out of game reason can warp the EVE economy since they are by definition outside of EVE's market forces. Of course this then brings up the question of time cards since they are in effect moving isk around for cash.
What about character selling? Its interesting to note that most of the arguments stated don't really apply. In theory you could "farm" characters but in practice this seems fairly unproductive.
I've found this area of virtual world/real world intersections fascinating for some time. Its a very interesting topic of discussion.
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Max Tesla
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Posted - 2007.02.27 20:59:00 -
[6]
How do they know who bought the isk or not???
What if the seller gives away isk for free to people and then when ccp checks all transactions they will ban even those who got it for free
also that would be a perfect way to get vengence on some people
Become an isk seller sell to some and transfer free isk to the ones you hate and then get cought so that the ones you hate get banned
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nugpot
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:02:00 -
[7]
Excellent Blog Guard,
I for one am tired of the spam e-mails and msgs in chat.
But, what about the websites that offer ISK for sale? I summise that there is nothing you can about that until the transaction occurs.
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Emily Spankratchet on 27/02/2007 21:09:47 I don't want to detract from what is otherwise a good blog, but... How can we have a blog about the ebils of ISK trading that doesn't mention GTC sales?
Edit: Not that I'm saying they're necessarily bad. And not that I don't accept that the mechanisms are different from black market ISK sales. I'm just, y'know, saying.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:16:00 -
[9]
Was the BPO conglomerate responsible for some (all?) of the absolutely ridiculous prices we've seen the past few months for T2 modules that doesn't really cost that much to produce but were/are sold with a 800%+ markup?
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: Sama |
Kazuo Ishiguro
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Eldo Davip
Originally by: GM Guard Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency. The players involved bought a large number of expensive blueprints over a long period of time with the purpose of monopolizing the market on certain items. They attempted to drive prices as high as possible so that they could skim more money off the top and sell more ISK on Ebay
Damn. Hope's they are some good BPOs so they get reseeded
A hundred to one that those included covert ops cloaking device blueprints. ------
Top speed calculation spreadsheet - feedback welcome :) |
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Marcusi
Ars ex Discordia Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: GM Guard EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Thank you, that brightened my day.
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Pattern Clarc
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:42:00 -
[12]
maybe you should have mentioned how GTC sales aren't cheating?
It sends a mixed message imho
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Pangrit 43
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:42:00 -
[13]
This entire post is a crock of ****. CCP sells ISK for cash directly to players through GTC sales. This monopoly guarantees that CCP collects all cash for ISK sales, while at the same time putting deflationary pressure on the value of a real dollar in terms of isk. I'm fine with that, but for CCP to totally ignore its own isk sales, and then go on about how damaging it is to the game is hypocritical and stupid. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: GM Guard
blah blah blah blah
Yeah, whatever, you GMs know best don't you? It not like there is systematic EULA violations going on that GM Nova (Is she really in the Goons?) and the other GMs are turning a blind eye to. Now is it?
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Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:48:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Poolpy on 27/02/2007 21:44:39
Quote: First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.
Interesting, and what CCP think about: - GTC for ISK - Characters farming/selling - Selling out of game services for isk.
Bye.
ps: hahahahahahahahaha.
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Nvali
Inactive Hardeners
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Posted - 2007.02.27 21:53:00 -
[16]
Name and Shame. Get stats out there. Constantly. Not just occassionally with an illustrative example, but routinely - "We banned 371 macro miners *today*. Don't macro mine. You will be caught." - with an update every day, or week, or month - but regularly. Right now it seems like an odd exception to the norm when somebody is busted. Change that perception. ---
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Still Hart
Aurora Medical Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:04:00 -
[17]
Yeah not reiterate AGAIN what everyone else has said, but I think it bears repeating. How in the world can you say ISK selling is bad when GTC sales and transfers are condoned?
I know a guy first-hand who went out and bought (and sold) some GTCs so he could buy a freighter. Normally I frown upon ISK-/gold-/whatever-buyers (because that's exactly what he did) but in this case it's condoned so...I had very mixed feelings about it.
I think all the points made in the dev-blog regarding the evils of ISK-selling are correct so I'm not sure why CCP so obviously supports it... |
Galimiy Portret
R.u.S.H. Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:16:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Galimiy Portret on 27/02/2007 22:13:01 oO
Btw, weren't were some ppl who denied that cartels existed?
...now in RED |
Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:17:00 -
[19]
Damn, I was going to say "what about GTCs", but everyone has already...
Allow the purchase of GTCs for ISK, so that those who don't have any other purchase options can play. But do not allow the selling of GTCs between players. You then avoid the Cash -> GTC -> ISK cycle.
- Got grief?
Revelations MySQL Database |
Celedris
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:19:00 -
[20]
What are your thoughts on Game Time Card selling?
It seems amazingly hypocritical for you to lecture your players about the sins of transferring real money for ISK, while simultaneously promoting GTC selling.
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VeNT
Minmatar Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:26:00 -
[21]
I like meny others find it funny that you clamp down on people selling isk via ebay etc then alow people to sell isk via GTC sales surly this has the same effect on the EVE econimy as everything else?
-------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet! |
Ribadil
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:31:00 -
[22]
Was also waiting for the bit about GTC selling... please GM Guard, finish your blog
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Biltic Creen
Minmatar Deutsche Minen und Werke Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:31:00 -
[23]
come on, tell us which BPOs will be reseeded
you made me very curious |
Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:39:00 -
[24]
I would like further clarification on this issue. It is allowed to buy GTC's and then sell them for isk? In essence, that is buying isk, but it is giving the money to CCP instead. Or am I just confused as to the GTC rules? ----------------------------------------------------
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:41:00 -
[25]
Give the player that found a macro, and it was confirmed to be a macro, a one week long kill right on the macros before you ban them.
People will hunt macro miners for you left and right. -AS |
Selzer
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dev Blog First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance.
Unless of course you are buying your way to power through GTC sales, in which case the whole level playground thing is ignored. Seriously CCP, how can you possibly write this and allow GTC sales for ISK at the same time?
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Dal Thrax
Caldari Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:57:00 -
[27]
Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in.
2) With ISK selling you can cash out your in game assets for RL currency.
If you can "cash out" you can move/launder money internatinally. Many governments don't like this and WILL squash CCP if they let this go on.
Dal
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:58:00 -
[28]
hey hey
LolZor at the joke post
RL > GTC > ISK
well done CCP for keeping it in house and legitimsing a laundering process where you get the RL cash.
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lukka
Gallente August Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.27 22:58:00 -
[29]
As long as CCP condones (indeed, legitimizes) GTC sales (which is nothing but a regulated market for the exchange of real world currency for in-game currency, regardless of how it's spun), CCP has ABSOLUTELY ZERO credibility on this issue. Period.
Want players to listen to your overtures? Then practice what you preach, CCP.
lukka |
Selzer
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in.
2) With ISK selling you can cash out your in game assets for RL currency.
If you can "cash out" you can move/launder money internatinally. Many governments don't like this and WILL squash CCP if they let this go on.
Dal
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
CCP obviously doesn't like people buying their way ahead in the game (either that or the Dev Blog is lying), so the only reason I can see that they would allow GTC sales is because it is a revenue source for them.
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Major Stormer
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:15:00 -
[31]
GTCs..... Oh wait.
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Arlenik Emmanouelik
Republic of Red Army
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:25:00 -
[32]
This is a joke, right?
You have people from the community who write for EVE magazine. They have direct links in their articles to their websites relating to the article(ex; EVE Tanking HERE. Some of those sites have advertisements for buying ISK for real money. So, how is CCP going to indirectly advertise ISK selling, and then have a GM write a BS blog about how RMT is bad?
CCP you're up for review.
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Brigadier Joe
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:34:00 -
[33]
I don't mind GTCs.
Yes, it can get a player a rung or two higher up the ladder of Eve. But it doesn't effect the game in the ways mentioned in the Blog because only CCP benefit from isk-selling, and not farmers/exploiters.
CCP isk-selling doesn't depress the mineral markets (CCP's borked new regions do however...)
CCP isn't farming complexes, or phishing accounts, or macro-mining, or running a 24hr sweatshop, to get the isk to sell you. (ok, maybe that last one ) so GTC sales don't effect the overall player experience even remotely like the isk-sellers do.
In fact, GTC sales probably help the overall player experience, since there are many players who obviously can't afford the RL cash to continue to play. Think about the loss of diversity, community, and targets if that playerbase suddenly dropped out of Eve.
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Constructicon
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:41:00 -
[34]
I have to say... GTC's O_o
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Tergiminius
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:43:00 -
[35]
CCP have stated in the past the reason we have the GTC selling is because there are countries where this is the only way they can play, ie no credit / debit cards. CCP have to keep this method in to allow those people to still play the game.
The new method they have employed with the selling through accounts is good because it cuts out the reselling aspect; they never intended for this to happen, it was a side effect of trying to provide a legitamate way for said ppl to participate in Eve.
Don't beat CCP over GTC, they are trying
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Nymos
Fimbulvintr
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:47:00 -
[36]
very nice blog.
however, it was already mentioned in this thread, but why does isk buying become "legal" and "unebil" if ccp gets a share of the profit? tbh, GTC sales are nothing else than isk sales. someone is able to generate more isk than he needs in game, buys GTC on the forums that someone bought with RL cash and... you get the idea of how he'll convert the GTC back to cash :p
whoever still buys isk on ebay is just dumb. the whole GTC thing is just as flawed and 100% un-ebil. --
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Ryysa
North Face Force Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 23:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Brigadier Joe I don't mind GTCs.
Yes, it can get a player a rung or two higher up the ladder of Eve. But it doesn't effect the game in the ways mentioned in the Blog because only CCP benefit from isk-selling, and not farmers/exploiters.
CCP isk-selling doesn't depress the mineral markets (CCP's borked new regions do however...)
CCP isn't farming complexes, or phishing accounts, or macro-mining, or running a 24hr sweatshop, to get the isk to sell you. (ok, maybe that last one ) so GTC sales don't effect the overall player experience even remotely like the isk-sellers do.
In fact, GTC sales probably help the overall player experience, since there are many players who obviously can't afford the RL cash to continue to play. Think about the loss of diversity, community, and targets if that playerbase suddenly dropped out of Eve.
Someone who has a clue, finally...
You see - there will always be RMT ... Whatever CCP does, there still will be people selling isk for real money... WIth the GTC system - more people can play the game, and it DRASTICALLY decreases RMT by 3rd parties + CCP gets money that otherwise would be hoarded by some farmers in sweatshops.
It's a win-win-win situation... I am amazed some people are so full of jealousy and so blind to see it...
N.F.F. Recruitment |
Bruno Bonner
Gallente Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:06:00 -
[38]
Sorry, but got to say that this blog was not exactly very well thought.
If you just have mentioned the problems ISK selling brings in regards to petition and service quality, great.
But they way you tried to portray "ISK trading" as generally wrong....then bad choice, because CCP has never supported that vision as clearly as you put it in this devblog. GTC selling, Char trading, RL-services paid with ISK, they all involve an exchange thats happens out of eve.
Perhaps if you mentioned it in a way to let the reader discern between a fundamentally wrong type of isk-trading in comparison to an "ok and accepted" one, it would make more sense.
regards Bruno ------ aka BinderAJ |
Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:08:00 -
[39]
Well if you can buy a GTC with real money then sell a GTC to another player for cash then you are definitly cheat as is described in the first point of the blog. Its clear that also that some players are generating isk to buy GTCs in order to play. The has exactly the same effect as any other money grinding sort of play, it injects isk into the economy. How large an effect it has is entirely a matter of numbers.
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rciq
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:17:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ryysa
Someone who has a clue, finally...
Well... Have a multi-account-chinese farming your plex and turning the isk into gtcs. No matter what he does next (sell gtcs on ebay or use them himself), it's pretty far from being a "win-win-win":P
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Brigadier Joe
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:35:00 -
[41]
Originally by: rciq
Originally by: Ryysa
Someone who has a clue, finally...
Well... Have a multi-account-chinese farming your plex and turning the isk into gtcs. No matter what he does next (sell gtcs on ebay or use them himself), it's pretty far from being a "win-win-win":P
Please familerize yourself with the new GTC system before posting ignorant comments...
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rciq
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:47:00 -
[42]
Miss... It is still possible to sell/buy gtcs in both ways (isk and $).
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Kinumi
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:51:00 -
[43]
Hypocrisy ftw~
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:57:00 -
[44]
Yup I also have to add my objection to this dev blog..
Introducing the GameTimeCards made sure you can buy isk with RL money. Making it legal to do character for isk trades kinda comes down to the same thing really, if you know what you're doing.
I don't mind you guys (CCP) wanting the cash for all the IG items, including isk, it being yours legally, but I do mind you not actually setting up a fixed exchange rate.
See here's why I understand people that buy isk: Not all of us are students that don't need a lot of sleep. Not all of us are utter RL newbs and lack any form of social life. If you have a job and a family, you may not be able to spend a lot of time in game. If you have a skilled 3 yr old char you may want to spend that time with your IG buddies, roaming the galaxy for targets in your slightly pimped shippie.
You have a good job, why not be able to spend some of your hard earned cash on isk so you can replace that ship when you need to. Now to be legal you need to buy a GTC and sell it on the forum. You don't have time for that.. You could possible just hire a student to do the work for you, donating him money while he sells you characters for way too high prices to keep it all 'legal' ...
Point is, if you want the money, just ff-ing say so and make it available.. ain't no way you can ever stop people from bending the rules in their favour.
Also macro-miners are annoying and bad.. but how high do you want the mineral prices to be exactly?? Also it's pretty rare to see macro-ers get punished even after they have been reported.. guess macro-ing in itself is not really illegal? Or is having someone pay for 14 accounts just really nice?
PS: yes this is kinda hostile, cos making a blog like this without even mentioning the legal side of isk trading is just plain old wrong..
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Cyclops43
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Posted - 2007.02.28 01:06:00 -
[45]
First of all, ISK-sellers should have something very bad happen to them!
That out of the way, how about looking for the reason that ISK-buying is so popular... If this is known, then it might be possible to remedy the reason, removing the problem that way.
If you think a couple of years back, before T2, how much did a fitted fleet battleship cost? After insurance, and with good equipment, it prob'ly cost you around 50-60 million ISK when it got blown up. What does it cost today for a fleet battleship, with T2 equipment and rigs? Oh, I'd say you'd easily be out 300-400 million ISK when it goes kaboom. (I'll here just remind the Dev's at CCP what they said when they put insurance in the game. It was something like "It shouldn't be too costly to get blown up!". Ehh, can I have that again????)
So in just a couple of years, the cost to compete in EVE has risen by more than 5 times!
What are the reasons for this? I have a couple of them that I'd say are mostly to blame: 1. The disaster that is the T2 market! It's been a joke for far too long, and it doesn't look like anything is being done about it in the short-to-medium future. The system is totally broken, but it seems CCP is still clinging to the hope that it'll fix itself. 2. Addition of rigs (but to be fair CCP probably hasn't finished adjusting these). 3. General and regular nerfings of income, like the upcoming nerf of level 4 mission running to appease gankers (sorry, but I say things as I see them...).
In addition, a lot of people are VERY rich (I blame ISK-printing machines T2 BPO's), driving up prices of faction/officer items, and a lot of new premium-ISK stuff has been added to the game (capital ships).
So in general, the price level to compete in the game has been driven (way!) up, the 'Grind' has over and over been made less profitable (repeated nerfs), and CCP wonder why people are buying ISK????
PS: For the record, I've NEVER bought ISK in any way (including GTC).
PPS: As an interim solution to the T2 market. Put all T2 items ON the NPC market at say 3-5 times the base price. This'll put an upper limit on them, and still leave a fairly large amount of profit for producers (without the extortionate prices of today).
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Nir
The Doldrums
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Posted - 2007.02.28 01:21:00 -
[46]
April fools? Oh wait, its a month early.
How can you say with a straight face that real life money should not give an advantage inside EVE and "In EVE money is power blabla" and then NOT mention GTC's?
How are GTCs not giving people an advantage? The source is different (CCP instead of Joe Bloggs ISK Reseller) but does it really change anything?
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Brigadier Joe
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Posted - 2007.02.28 01:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: rciq Miss... It is still possible to sell/buy gtcs in both ways (isk and $).
check the picture, ma'am.
The new system for GTC sales instantly validates and uses the code. Anyone selling GTC codes and not using web system is
A. A moron,
B. not protected from scamming, and deserves what happens to them.
C. Bypassing the system specifically in order to facilitate the isk-sellers, which would mean they're gonna get banned too.
So unless someone is going to buy the GTC from the CCP reseller, and then find an isk-seller that's willing to give them isk without being able to verify the code, then that isk-seller is going to try and sell an unverified code for cash how? On Ebay??
Those are some very big hoops to jump. I'm sure a few codes could be sold back for cash that way, Not likely to be cost-effective, and the amount of codes that manage to sneak through will go down over time as people learn and be comfortable with CCP's web-based system.
so again, with the addition of the new web-system, trying to use GTCs to convert isk to cash is difficult and not viable as a buisness for isk-sellers.
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Gealbhan
Caldari The Big Sky Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.28 01:46:00 -
[48]
It's simple business tactics really.
In my mind all this is doing is cutting out the middle man - a killing off of the competition and cornering the isk for cash market yourselves. I understand you're in business to make money and isk sellers cut into that, don't smoke screen it with a line about the economy in game, This is about isk sellers taking RL money away from CCP. You have every legal right to go after isk sellers - it is your game, your items, your isk. You own Eve and anything to do with it. Granted.
How much to GTC's go for in isk anyway...?
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rciq
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Posted - 2007.02.28 01:58:00 -
[49]
Of course. It's now secure one way and "no more supported by CCP" in the other. "No more supported" but legal.
The "ISK <-> GTC <-> $" pipeline is still working... Lots of people rather pay $10 not $15. Lots of others are willing to turn their 150mils into $10 legally. Finally lots of those who need 150mil and have spare $15. Hit the damn eBay if u don't believe it. Sir.
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
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Posted - 2007.02.28 02:09:00 -
[50]
People keep saying CCP keeps the GTCs because they are greedy and want the money for themselves...d
I havn't seen anyone explain how this actually happens though.
Scenario A) Person pays monthly fee to CCP, $15 approx.
Scenario B) Person does not pay monthly fee, CCP looses out on $15. Person uses timecode originally sold by CCP (to a reseller most likely). CCP gets $15 from timecode sale (actually less than this because they sell it to the resellers cheaper than that).
As far as I see, in Scenario B, CCP makes the same (or maybe a little less) money than Scenario A.
Possible exceptions could be timecodes that are purchased and never used, and people who would otherwise not be able to pay a monthly fee.
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
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Serenity Steele
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate Operations Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.28 02:14:00 -
[51]
GM Guard, that's a beautiful stroke of PR. I'd still like my petition resolve thanks.
Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert
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Frank Dashwood
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Posted - 2007.02.28 02:15:00 -
[52]
cba to read the replies in this thread, i just thought the blog could have used the following line added on the end:
P.S. You can of course, buy your way to the top by buying GTCs and selling them for ISK. We don't mind that, as we get the cash.
(I shamelessly stole this line from a thread about this blog on the mighty shc forums, it needs to be said here as well.) |
Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar Provenance.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 02:21:00 -
[53]
What is it with the clueless GM "dev" blogs lately? This should be a new "special feature", I'm sure people would get a laugh out of these things monthly.
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Maglorre
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Posted - 2007.02.28 03:08:00 -
[54]
There seems to be one thing a lot of people are missing about the $->GTC->ISK that makes it quite different from buying ISK from other sellers. The number of GTCs that will be bought is limited. It is limited by the number of people playing the game that want to buy them with ISK. I guess if you took it to the extreme it would be one GTC per account per whatever timeframe if it was averaged over a period of time. Obviously not everyone will buy a GTC with ISK so the end result would be somehwere in between.
The macro miner et. al. does not have this limitation, they can keep mining/*****ing/phising/spamming away and converting ore->ISK->$ until the cows come home (as long as people are buying the ISK from them)
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 03:38:00 -
[55]
I know CCP means well...but there really is no way of stopping what is going on.
You can't prevent isk sales (especially with gtc's...) and you also can't eliminate most of the behavior that you attribute to isk sellers, even if you could eliminate isk selling.
"Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!" --LOL Worst argument ever. Evil conglomerates would form either way. Whether the isk can be sold for real money or not, it has value to players, and having more is better. So if the isk sellers don't do it, the power hungry alliance leaders will do it instead.
Stopping isk sales is like trying to eliminate recreational drugs, you'll never pull it off, your best bet is to instead try to regulate it.
Shamis
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MasterDecoy
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.28 04:37:00 -
[56]
im not gonna bother quoting but the gist of what he was saying is that the way isk sellers go about their business is ruining the game.
now explain to me how selling gtc's are ruining the game?
everybody whining about gtc's don't really seem to get the larger picture except for what is important to them.
"it's not fair: whaaaaaaa..."
some people have more money than time and some people have more time than money. PEOPLE WILL BUY ISK!!!!!! (capitalized for your attention). gtc's are, in my opinion, the only way to allow people to buy isk WITHOUT ruining the economy.
now if only those retards that buy isks from site could get that through their thick noob heads, we'd all be kosher.
peace.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2007.02.28 05:54:00 -
[57]
I totally fail to see how GTCs have a different effect on the economy they any other form of isk selling. You buy a gtc with real money and then sell it to a player for isk. He will have done some sort of farming activity to earn the isk. Whats the effective difference to the economy?
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Anna Grahm
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Posted - 2007.02.28 06:37:00 -
[58]
GM Guard how much ISK can I get for ú50? I mean, game time cards... sorry, I always get that confused.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.28 06:50:00 -
[59]
CCP needs to stop allowing *players* to re-sell GTCs in game. Period. If you want to pay for time in-game with ISK, then have a DIRECT IN-GAME way to use ISK to buy time. No timecode. ISK->TIME. If it's in-game, then you don't need a code. just transfer 150m (or whatever) to "CCP-30DAYGAMETIME" and boom, another 30 days.
Then allow people to purchase time codes OOG, and apply them to their accounts. Sure, people can re-sell GTCs to each other, FOR RL CASH, but not in-game for ISK. Anyone caught reselling GTCs in game for ISK should get banned, as should those who buy them.
This breaks the ISK<->RL CASH chain.
Everyone is having a stupid contest, and you're in first place! |
raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.28 07:37:00 -
[60]
Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up. Hmmm sounds like an alliance to me.
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stock holder
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Posted - 2007.02.28 07:48:00 -
[61]
lol i wish ccp would just admit that they are considering to follow sony online entertainments role in the station exchanges in eq2
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Radica
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.28 08:24:00 -
[62]
I just reviewed the GTC for isk policy, then the dev's reply here.
Fair enough, you can't police it, blah blah blah.... So how about you rewrite this devblog omitting all the reasons buying isk is bad that also apply to the sale of GTCs for isk? Because the blog would be about 5 lines long, that's why.
Face it, selling GTCs for isk is cheating.
Quote: ôHypocrisy: prejudice with a haloö -- Ambrose Bierce
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Limlox
Caldari Anti-BoB Flash Mob
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:07:00 -
[63]
It's obvious that GTC selling for Isk is a way of turning real cash into Isk.
CCP's stance on using rl currency to get ahead in the game has just taken a huge u-turn over the whole subject.
I agree that pilots should be able to use hard earned isk to pay their subscription. When I first heard about the idea, I was contemplating funding a second account using isk. However, when I learned that the only way to do it was to buy from a 3rd party I was horrified and out of principle have never purchased GTC's purely because others will be making Isk from it, in very large amounts.
I think CCP's only option is to sell GTC's for Isk direct and ban any other 3rd party trading to keep in line with it's own policies.
Otherwise the blog I read the other day about removing isk from missions also makes it harder for the newer and honest pilot to build any substantial wealth in the game. It seems that unless you're a 0.0 resident or a GTC trader, there's not many options to make any decent amounts of isk.
On the wagon
www.nobob.info |
Sathynos
Caldari Pink Bunnies C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:10:00 -
[64]
Just like in case of account sharing I strongly support reminding people of almost forgotten thing called "personal responsibility". I know this might be harsh and might reduce your income, but really proven isk buying (not just selling) should result in a ban. Temporary maybe, for like 3 months at first offense. Account sharing does not directly damage eve economy, only can ruin said account and maybe a corp. ISK buying, just like you described, makes damage on all player base and should be enforced mercilessly. "That cool new shield" something or not. -- "Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing. Eve mercenaries portal: http://www.eve-mercs.com |
Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Mr Krosis People keep saying CCP keeps the GTCs because they are greedy and want the money for themselves...d
I havn't seen anyone explain how this actually happens though.
Heres what CCP legitimised.
EG. a character decides to buy his way in the game...
1) using RL cash he buys GTC's from CCP 2) he SELLS GTC's for ingame ISK 3) a few days later he has a few bil in his wallet.
he just gained a huge advantage over other players by just committing a RMT. from the dev blog "As most of you have heard, (and some have experienced first hand) buying ISK is forbidden" this is where CCP has made their error and what people are saying. CCP state that RMT is bad for the game and considered cheating etc but they themselves are part of the problem.
this player can impact the economy because he hasnt used any form of ingame faucet. he now has buying power for pretty much any item ingame he has no need to mine or mission either and could now even become part of the TII brigade because all he needs to do is GTC>ISK till he can afford them. now imagine this on a larger scale. :(
Originally by: Ryysa Someone who has a clue, finally...
You see - there will always be RMT ... Whatever CCP does, there still will be people selling isk for real money... WIth the GTC system - more people can play the game, and it DRASTICALLY decreases RMT by 3rd parties + CCP gets money that otherwise would be hoarded by some farmers in sweatshops.
It's a win-win-win situation... I am amazed some people are so full of jealousy and so blind to see it...
actually Ryysa its not jealousy and you seem to have missed the point. RMT is bad. in ANY way. i will agree that CCP's system is a small hope to reduce RMT but they are still trading cash for isk. its plain hypocrisy. if they actually wanted to stop RMT GTC's would ONLY be for sale with cash. if somone then sends a pettition about buying from a player using isk or buying from a non registered reseller then its tough **** its not a valid form of payment.
When i first started this game i always used GTC's because i thought it was safe and convenient etc then they stopped it, now they use GTC>ISK. what was wrong with it only being cash subscriptions ?
by keeping GTC>ISK people can "cash in" to the game using a perfectly honest and validated method. i think you should change the blog title to "buy from us dont sell to others"
if CCP believe that buying a GTC with isk is 100% ok then why dont we see that option in the account payment options ? we dont because CCP will probably then never get a penny in subs. its ok to buy your sub in isk from a RESELLER. if you look at those RESELLERS none of them are mainstream retaillers (uk eg's GAME, GAMEstation, CEX, Chips)
to CCP : Please put a huge nail in the coffin of RMT (as best you can) as long as you have GTC>ISK then you look to support it. pettitions could then just state "sorry your actions were not allowed by the EULA and we do not condone the BUYIND AND SELLING of isk in any shape or form. Sorry your pettition for any reimbursement is denied please have this ban instead "
Sorry for the long post Mikal Drey
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GM Guard
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:22:00 -
[66]
Hi and sorry for my late appearance in this thread.
Many of you have rightfully pointed out that by allowing the sale of game time codes for ISK, we are in essence allowing a form of real money trading. Our goal was of course never to support any form of RMT and the only reason we allow this form of business with it's inevitable side effects is because we wanted to give players a chance to pay for their subscirbtions with isk and thereby in essence making some other EVE player pay their subscription cost for them. We allowed this in order to allow more players to play. We want more people playing EVE. In fact we want all people to play EVE! That is the only gain we saw by allowing this and the only reason why we have stuck to it despite the myriad of problems we have had to deal with because of it (GTC scam cases make me weep in my bed at night).
It is true that this opened a loophole for a certain form of RMT but that business is small and measely in comparison to the all consuming monster that is the ISK selling business(TM). One player on this thread rightfully pointed out that RMT through GTCs is limited in the sense that there is a fixed number of game time codes in circulation at any time. That is a very good point and explains the vast size difference between the GTC for ISK business and the ISK for $ business. Also, with the new secure game time code system, the business of GTCs for isk will become even more limited as a money making tool than before.
Some call us hypocritical for allowing one thing and banning the other while preaching purity and good virtues. I can understand that point of view in part, especially if people also believe that we are allowing GTC selling for isk to make tons of cash as isk sellers and that we just want to push the other isk selling gangs off the market so we can make even more cash! As I hope most of you will understand that is not the case. We have only one goal and that goal is to watch EVE grow and prosper. We truly want the ISK selling business with all it's devilry and witchcraft out of the game and we will continue to work towards that goal. The purpose of this blog was mainly to point out the downsides of the ISK selling business and the negative effects it undeniably has on the Eve world. Most of you never directly witness these negative effects so I wanted to relate them to you to give you perspective. Every day we in Customer support have to deal with several players who have bought isk in good faith because they truly didn't know it was against the rules, only to receive isk straight from a hacked account that has been phished by agents of one of the ISK selling websites. We hate seeing people in trouble and we want to be able to provide the best service possible. We also want players to know the potential consequences of dealing with these people and to know what they are supporting by doing so.
Best regards Senior GM Guard EVE Customer Support.
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:25:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in. Dal
If this is already implemented since shortly, can we please stop the replies saying "OMG they allow GTC for RL cash for Isk sales ONEONEONE"? Since with the above described mentioned system you can not buy a GTC and resell it ingame anymore.
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Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:38:00 -
[68]
Thanks for the clarification GM Guard.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:49:00 -
[69]
Originally by: GM Guard Edited by: GM Guard on 28/02/2007 09:28:28 Hi and sorry for my late appearance in this thread.
Many of you have rightfully pointed out that by allowing the sale of game time codes for ISK, we are in essence allowing a form of real money trading. Our goal was of course never to support any form of RMT and the only reason we allow this form of business with it's inevitable side effects is because we wanted to give players a chance to pay for their subscribtions with isk : if this was indeed true then i should be able to buy a GTC with isk directly from CCP
(GTC scam cases make me weep in my bed at night). : 100% agree and the new system does indeed help prevent scamming and for that you guys get a little praise.
It is true that this opened a loophole for a certain form of RMT but that business is small and measely in comparison to the all consuming monster that is the ISK selling business(TM). : for as long as this loophole exists people will do it. you shouldne justify it because its the lesser of 2 evils its STLL evil
Some call us hypocritical for allowing one thing and banning the other while preaching purity and good virtues. I can understand that point of view in part, especially if people also believe that we are allowing GTC selling for isk to make tons of cash as isk sellers and that we just want to push the other isk selling gangs off the market so we can make even more cash! As I hope most of you will understand that is not the case. We have only one goal and that goal is to watch EVE grow and prosper. : again this still becomes hypocrisy because CCP themselves do not sell GTC's for isk. reason being they get the cash. prosper by all means but dont be part of the problem for some spurious logic
We truly want the ISK selling business with all it's devilry and witchcraft out of the game and we will continue to work towards that goal. : then again DONT RMT in ANY way. lead by example and others will follow
Thank You for a more clearer statement. people know the bads sides of RMT its the do as we say but not as we do attitude that people have responded so badly to.
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GM Guard
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Posted - 2007.02.28 10:00:00 -
[70]
The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!".
It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP.
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postbote
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Posted - 2007.02.28 10:18:00 -
[71]
so playing Eve now is creating a new char and have a gtc ready to sell so you get a new player with 100-300m isk in the wallet
if that is going to be EVE
the only change is now the RMT is supervised by CCP which prevents scamming
I think EVE is more growing with the server and the resulting qos.
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ALPHA12125
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.28 10:23:00 -
[72]
Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!".
It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP.
sell the isk on ebay :D
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 10:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!".
It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP.
totally agree and thats why i pay by DD. I pay for a quality game and the services CCP provide. but for every GTC to ISK its an encouragement for every ISK buyer. I dont believe there is a single arguement that someone could bring up that GTC>ISK is a valid form of payment.
the student agruement : cant afford subs.
if you cant afford it then you shouldnt be playing. with students complaining about debt problems they should be looking to what and where they are spending their cash.
the payment problem : no Debit/credit cards
if you got the web then you have the ability to pay by other means. paybycash is supported by CCP.
any other arguements ?
IF CCP could justify GTC>ISK please do but until then your adding to the system. i reiterate. I see no reason for CCP to allow GTC>ISK
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.28 10:39:00 -
[74]
Originally by: GM Guard Blog
So, in summary, if you buy ISK you are a scumsucking lowlife and we all hate you.
\o/ --------------------
Verone for President of EVE |
Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:02:00 -
[75]
There are no T2 cartels, the T2 market and is working as intented... There are no T2 cartels, the T2 market is working as intented... There are no... ooups...
Regards
/Doxs
After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
Big Al
Ki Shoda
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:08:00 -
[76]
Why would anyone buy isk from a 3rd party when you can buy it directly from CCP with GTCs?
Hypocrisy at its finest tbh. Although the ability to pay for your monthly subscription with isk is certainly a nice feature it's potential for abuse (and legal buying of billions upon billions of isk) is simply unacceptable.
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RadarJack
Amarr Solar Storm
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:18:00 -
[77]
So..
Buying ISK = BAD! Buying ISK via GTC = GOOD!
T2 cartels making ISK to sell = BAD! T2 cartels making ISK to buy GTC's to sell = GOOD!
People can win using only in game methods = either unbelievable naivity or corporate double speak gone mad.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:48:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Notnearly OnEnough on 28/02/2007 11:51:10 Hi
Well imho there are several easy things that CCP could do. They could put a flag warning system into the game.
First flag traps a macro miner. CCP knows what ship everyone has, they have the math for your skills and know the rate which you mine at. so the flag trigger is, perhaps 8 hours a day or 240 hours a month, and if your character produces ore that far exceeds that amount it triggers a GM to watch the person. if your account is mining enough ore that it would take 400 or 500 hours worth of mining, well, the dudes using a macro.
Second trigger, use the EVE banking system, same as RL. if a transaction over a certain amount happens it triggers an EVE banking monitor. suddenly CCP sees that "joe miner" is transfering huge amounts of ISK each month , "dudes probably working with a macro miner"
Another trigger, check characters for huge amounts of ore transfers, set up a system where you have to sell roids or minerals thru an agent instead of direct to market. this agent will count your ore and then give you your ISK, but the count goes towards your total and CCP can see if you trade huge amounts.
Final say on GTC for me, is they do support macro miners. The excuse that they need GTC because they are people in 3rd world spots who play the game that don't have access to CC#'s is probably true, but it's also those places that have the labor that gets 2 dollars a day.
So if I was a macro-miner in that country, I sure would use GTC's I'd mine like crazy and sell my ore, but from the new found ISK to sell, i'd reserve a bit to get my GTC for next months macromining time. now I can go for another month. But the crap about no cc#'s is bull, if they are selling ISK, then they get the money from the sale electronically. how else could someone in the states buy ISK from someone in a 3rd world country?
if they can set up an electronic transfer to get funds selling ISK, then they can pay for the game electronically. have CCP set up a way to pay with Ebay or Paypal. GTC's allow macrominers to buy time.
The other down side to GTC's is CCp doesn't know who you are, I pay for the year with a CC#. CCp knows who I am and could have legal recourse with me if I did something against them. The real dogs, like macro miners and GTC sellers, use GTC's and CCP can not track them.
What I think should happen, is people who use GTC's to play, need to have an ingame monitor code used to track how much ISK transfers thru their wallet, and also how much ORE transfers ( in case they use alts to sell it) By using an ingame banking system and an ingame agent to buy and sell ore, they could monitor these high volume players.
I also think TECH II is the reason. I know that since CCP and BoB got busted by favoring who got the BPO's for TECH II that CCP has decided to punish everyone else by not creating any new BPO's for TECH II in the game. but this is going to make things worse. With the costs to research a BP to convert it to a TECH II BPC, then the prices of TECH II fittings will become very high, to levels we can't even imagine now. I think if CCP installed many more of the "standard" items in the game, like items with numers ( lets say X9000 cruise or whatever they are called) and all the uber SCOUT stuff, then many players would be happy with standard fittings. SInce the creation of the DRAKE anD Hurricane, the prices of standard Medium high fittings are almost more than TECH II. I get frustrated when looking at the markets for some TECH I uber fittings and they aren't there. CCP needs to install the blueprints into the standard stations so NPC's build them. It's strange looking at a market and there are thousands of parts available for building a POS or even an OUTPOST, yet not one 720MM scout arty. If that stuff was also balanced things would get better.
Perhaps if CCP dev's spent more time floating around in various empire alliances instead of hanging in one sided 0.0 outfits, they understand the typical player ** Using a MAC to play EVE is like using a rifter in a level 5.. scrambled FTL **
** I'd rather lag than use a MAC ** |
4rc4ng3L
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:51:00 -
[79]
That whole blog feels pointless as long as you are still selling GTC's CCP
Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live... |
Altaree
Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:55:00 -
[80]
You can't get rich in RL selling GTC's. That is the big difference.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.28 11:57:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Altaree You can't get rich in RL selling GTC's. That is the big difference.
correct, but you can pay for them with your macromined ISK. I don't think the point started in the thread was about becoming rich selling GTCs it's about how the ISK to buy them comes about
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 12:24:00 -
[82]
GM Guard, you should make a public statement as to what T2 BPOs are being reseeded, so that the EVE community can play this game on a level playground.
I guarantee you with a 100% certainty, the the inside information of which T2 BPOs are being reseeded has already been leaked to certain ingame alliances, and said alliances will be scrambling to buy their way into certain research fields to monopolize on the reseeding process. Insider information is what corrupted and destroyed the lottery market to begin with, and allowing yet another opportunity for this to happen is only going to make things worse.
So please, for the sake of fairness, just tell all of us which BPOs are getting reseeded. Thank you.
Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
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Plasticine Perfection
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Posted - 2007.02.28 12:30:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Plasticine Perfection on 28/02/2007 12:29:06 Blog pointless since it doesn't address GTC sales in any way.
I was reading through it thinking "aha, this is when they finally tell us they're stopping the trade of GTC's for isk..." but no, that paragraph never appeared. I even checked the bottom of the blog carefully to see if there was a page 2.
What exactly was the point of this blog then? It's just a more elaborate version of GM Arkanon's blog from last November (I think) which called ISK-buyers cheats... and then the GTC protected trade policy was introduced and discussion of the issue on the forums was censored and suppressed for 6 months.
Really losing any remaining shreds of faith in CCP here, seems the **** you guys are full of is getting deeper every day.
Edit: Oh and IBTL. We know how CCP really, really love open and continued discussion of critical issues with their playerbase. Another 5 pages of posts saying "WTF, GTCs! Lol!" and this thread will get the inevitable CCP I-win button.
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Robacz
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.28 12:44:00 -
[84]
Originally by: RadarJack T2 cartels making ISK to buy GTC's to sell = GOOD!
You can't resell GTC with new system, so this problem is already solved.
_________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 12:58:00 -
[85]
Kieron you shot yourself in the foot. Where? When you wrote this: 1. Macro mining We all know about macro miners. We have all seen them mindlessly emptying belts from out under honest miners trying to get ahead in EVE. All of us, whether we know it or not, have experienced the effects they have on mineral prices by constantly undercutting everyone who doesnÆt use a macro to mine 24/7. As it happens, macro programs donÆt need their occasional beauty sleep like the rest of us so competing with them on a free and open market is not possible. It is a common belief that macro mining gangs have ruined the profitability of mining in high security systems and that is sadly very close to the truth. This means that players with means and will to buy their ISK for real money are ruining one of the main sources of income for new players wanting a safe and profitable start to their EVE career. As you can see this is not a minor issue, itÆs a miner issue.
Dispite the rampant macro mining and the fact CCP has not been too open with us about the number of macro miners booted since their last report back in 2005 i think it was.
Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon prices are higher than they ever were since I started playing eve in october 2004. Meaning that newb players make more isk per hour mining today than they were 2,5 years ago and highend players mining in 0.0 make waaaaay less than they were a year ago.
Your argument about macro miners being the cause of anguish for newb players is simply not true.
The market for macroers are big alliances that build lots of big ships. We all know who they are. Take a closer look at the customers and you will find suppliers (macrominers)
I however wholeheartadly agree with point 1, 2 and 3. Macroers spammers and account hackers should be dealt with in the harshest way possible = bannage Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
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Buford Early
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Posted - 2007.02.28 14:03:00 -
[86]
After watching a documentary on TV the other day, about RMT and the big companies in China with hundreds of employees working 12 hours 6-7 days a week playing WoW, EVE and other games - I would say you have a very difficult battle ahead if you want to stopping this. It is already too big an industry to succesfully stop it.
/me look's at The Noob Comix
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31i73
BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.28 14:32:00 -
[87]
Way to go CCP! Good stuff. Everyone hates those pesky macroers and stuff. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected]) |
Centurin
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.28 14:45:00 -
[88]
All the points I would have made have already been made by other posters. The BPO cartel has been known for ages. Funny they decided to do something about it now. All in all this blog was more of a joke than anything. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
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Zrevak Ashek
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.28 14:49:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Zrevak Ashek on 28/02/2007 14:47:31 If you have played Eve for a long time and feel certain organisations seems too relentless and seemingly able to play nonstop 23/7, here's why:
RMT
This clip shows examples from China, but it goes on in many other countries. Some ppl just have too much to loose for them to play fair..
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Treher
Minmatar Locust Syndicate Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.28 14:52:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Treher on 28/02/2007 14:54:01 I think the main reason people would purchase and sell GTC for ISK is so that they can purchase a character on the boards. My brother knows all about eve and would like to play. The first thing he asked me about was buying a character because he would be so far behind.
I think that GTC for isk is an expensive way to purchase isk as well, so it's not to practical. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $40 US for a single t2 kitted HAC in game.
Personally, the only thing that would make me buy and sell a GTC would be if I were stupid and got podded with my +4 clone and couldn't afford new implants (or borrow the money). In that manner, I'm buying real life time for my money because skill points, unlike ISK, cannot be recovered with hard work. However, I see no ethical difference between that ans someone paying for a 2nd character that will only have industrial skills. They are paying cash to have 2x the number of skill points per hour.
______________________________________________________ I forget which station container has my memory implants. |
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s4mp3r0r
ZiTek Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.28 15:24:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Christopher Scott GM Guard, you should make a public statement as to what T2 BPOs are being reseeded, so that the EVE community can play this game on a level playground.
I guarantee you with a 100% certainty, the the inside information of which T2 BPOs are being reseeded has already been leaked to certain ingame alliances, and said alliances will be scrambling to buy their way into certain research fields to monopolize on the reseeding process. Insider information is what corrupted and destroyed the lottery market to begin with, and allowing yet another opportunity for this to happen is only going to make things worse.
So please, for the sake of fairness, just tell all of us which BPOs are getting reseeded. Thank you.
/signed. Not that CCP pays any attention to me via petitions or posts.
Quote: I wish i could tell you more but I was sworn to absolute secrecy!
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 15:42:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Herculite on 28/02/2007 15:44:26 Hypocrisy
As long as you support GTC sales, the game is corrupted in terms of isk. What you are really saying is you don't want OUTSIDE people making money off isk, if CCP does then its ok.
Also unless there are some solutions to things like macro miners (and do NOT think these guys are only in high sec, low sec is full of them, fully supported by alliances who get a cut) what difference does it make? That blog posted what every thinking player who has played more than a few months knows. What I want to see are solutions.
Edit:PS if you can't afford a sub, you shouldn't be playing an MMO and this does include a friend of mine but seriously, if $15 a month puts you into finanical trouble, the hours you spend online should really go into rl. I suppose if you were bed ridden, broke, unable to work but had a laptop with a free internet connection you would have good cause, and for that person perhaps they could mail ccp and work something out. For EVERY other person I know buying and selling gtc's this isn't the case.
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Guaradar
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Posted - 2007.02.28 15:50:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Herculite As long as you support GTC sales, the game is corrupted in terms of isk. What you are really saying is you don't want OUTSIDE people making money off isk, if CCP does then its ok.
Many people have already posted about this, but I just want to offer my take. With the new GTC system, there is no way for you to get cash out of the selling/buying of GTC's. The only thing you can get now by buying GTC's with ISK is more playing time. The people who are a problem are those who are trying to make a profit off of the game -- namely the people who sell ISK for real money. They are the ones that have especially tilted the balance in Eve. The new GTC system does not offer any incentive to those people because they can't get cash out of it. These people don't care about more playing time, so they won't be using the system.
The volume of the GTC's for ISK is likely several orders of magnitude smaller than the RMT that is currently rampant in Eve and every other MMORPG.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.28 15:58:00 -
[94]
First off, hooray for that blog... I've always considered buying isk with irl cash to be cheating (whether direct or via GTCs), and I'm glad CCP shares that stance.
But, but... I'll join the "what about GTCs?" chorus. At least before they unfortunately provided a way for people to legally exchange isk for cash -- now I'm reading about the "new GTC system". What's that, and how does it stop the isk-for-cash trade? Enlighten me, please.
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GM Guard
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:09:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Herculite Hypocrisy
As long as you support GTC sales, the game is corrupted in terms of isk. What you are really saying is you don't want OUTSIDE people making money off isk, if CCP does then its ok.
Also unless there are some solutions to things like macro miners (and do NOT think these guys are only in high sec, low sec is full of them, fully supported by alliances who get a cut) what difference does it make? That blog posted what every thinking player who has played more than a few months knows. What I want to see are solutions.
ISK that can be bought for GTCs is a very limited supply. Only a portion of our playerbase uses GTCs so selling to them is the only way to aquire ISK through GTCs. Once their demand for GTCs has been met there is no more isk to be had from them.
ISK you can buy for cash is however an unlimited supply. The more demand there is for bought isk, the more problems will flood into EVE in the form of macro miners, hackers and scammers. If I conjure up a hypothetical situation and imagine that every player in EVE suddenly decided they wanted to buy a billion ISK but that they were going to pay for the isk with GTCs. Only a small portion of the players would be able to buy their billion because the demand for GTCs would run out. Also for each GTC sold the EVE world would gain the presence of a character for it's duration (which is the purpose of allowing people to pay their subscribtion by proxy)
If we on the other hand imagine that every player in EVE decided to buy a billion for cash...that demand would be met and it would be met by any means possible. You would see a sharp increase in the number of similarly named miners sucking up every piece of mineral out there and the EVE world would experience problems of previously unknown proportions. The RMT business is far bigger than EVE and will do its best to meet any demand for bought isk. It is this demand we wish to keep to a minimum in order to keep the troublemakers out. That is why we want to appeal to the community and raise awareness to the fact that every billion bought, needs to be macro mined, stolen or scammed. The best action that can be taken to battle macro miners for example is at the disposal of the players themselves. They can simply not do business with them. They will not keep macro mining if nobody wants their ISK.
You can call us hypocrites for allowing GTC sales for isk but that still doesn't nullify any of the points that have been made about the dark sides of the RMT business. The dark sides we are trying to keep at bay.
P.s. Thank you all for taking the time to read the blog and for commenting. There are differences to be found but your feedback is always appreciated.
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:12:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Guaradar
Many people have already posted about this, but I just want to offer my take. With the new GTC system, there is no way for you to get cash out of the selling/buying of GTC's. The only thing you can get now by buying GTC's with ISK is more playing time. The people who are a problem are those who are trying to make a profit off of the game -- namely the people who sell ISK for real money. They are the ones that have especially tilted the balance in Eve. The new GTC system does not offer any incentive to those people because they can't get cash out of it. These people don't care about more playing time, so they won't be using the system.
The volume of the GTC's for ISK is likely several orders of magnitude smaller than the RMT that is currently rampant in Eve and every other MMORPG.
Those people are a problem and they will still be a problem, you don't buy that isk from gtc's but websites set up for the trade. CCP will still have to enforce it on a case by case basis.
About the only + I see is that perhaps alliances will no longer get kick backs for having their members buy GTC's from a single 3rd party. Since I'm not sure how the new system works, I'm also not sure if this is true
Otherwise its just isk for cash supported by CCP. I make a good amount of money rl, I don't think is right for me in game terms to use that to buy a carrier in a day for what would take a player perhaps weeks to mine for and such in game. Its just plain wrong that anyones rl pocket book plays a part in game beyond the subscription.
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Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:21:00 -
[97]
Blog is ok as far as it goes, but instead of enabling the ability to sell time codes for ISK between players, simply make GTC's available from CCP through ú/$/Ç/ISK directly and ban all resales of GTC's. Problem almost solved. I say almost as you still have to work out something for those that buy their timecodes locally with pocket change (ie not through a bank account)...
Only thing that springs to mind is a store card like system, but that would be hell to admin and wouldn't pay for itself in the same way as store cards pay for the admin through charges levid when you don't pay on time or go over limit. This is one of the major hurdles all MMO's face; how to get non-bank account holding players to cough up the sub and do it easily without relying heavily on the postal system (players are renowned for forgetting stuff like posting the sub in and phrases like "The money-order is in the post" don't tend to go over well with customer support). GTC's only work in this area if they are easily obtainable locally, otherwise you end up needing a bank account anyway to buy the GTC, so why bother.
Currently GTC's are the sole preserve of those who can afford to buy them through ISK or those who don't like paying a subscription out the bank directly (want to be in control of exactly when they are going to pay) even though they probably bought the GTC using their bank account/credit card anyway (though paypal might have been involved). The one area that traditionally GTC's are actually aimed at (those without bank accounts), due to the lack of actual availability locally, are SOL anyway.
So, paypal is soon to be added to the available payment methods for EVE. With that fact in mind, once that happens, is there any point any more to selling GTC's? Those that can post in their money-orders for GTC's can just as easily post in money-orders for the time to be added straight to an account.
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:31:00 -
[98]
First thank you for the reply, I wasn't expecting one.
Originally by: GM Guard
ISK that can be bought for GTCs is a very limited supply. Only a portion of our playerbase uses GTCs so selling to them is the only way to aquire ISK through GTCs. Once their demand for GTCs has been met there is no more isk to be had from them.
True, but what is that limit? Without numbers I can only speculate, but being a purist, to me ANY amount is too much. What I can afford RL shouldn't change my eve character beyond a subscription fee. This is important in a game like eve where I have the ability to make someone elses life difficult, far moreso than a game like WoW where death is a much like respawning in a fps.
Quote: ISK you can buy for cash is however an unlimited supply. The more demand there is for bought isk, the more problems will flood into EVE in the form of macro miners, hackers and scammers. If I conjure up a hypothetical situation and imagine that every player in EVE suddenly decided they wanted to buy a billion ISK but that they were going to pay for the isk with GTCs. Only a small portion of the players would be able to buy their billion because the demand for GTCs would run out. Also for each GTC sold the EVE world would gain the presence of a character for it's duration (which is the purpose of allowing people to pay their subscribtion by proxy)
I don't think anyone (outside of the sellers and buyers) think that bulk isk sales are a good thing for the game, but don't we all already know this? When I started playing EvE just over a year ago I knew they did banning for isk sales if you got caught, so this isn't new. You are right that there are not enough GTC sales to support everyone buying, but again without numbers I don't know, and again if I'm only selling 2 gtcs so I don't have to carebear while I pvp, its still not a good situation. As for the extra character in the game, well thats assuming the ONLY way they can play is if they sell isk. If I were a 23/7 addict like some are, I'd have more than enough 'spare' isk to buy a gtc instead of paying but I'd still be able to pay. I'd say you would see less alts in game though, and really, is that a bad thing?
Quote: If we on the other hand imagine that every player in EVE decided to buy a billion for cash...that demand would be met and it would be met by any means possible. You would see a sharp increase in the number of similarly named miners sucking up every piece of mineral out there and the EVE world would experience problems of previously unknown proportions. The RMT business is far bigger than EVE and will do its best to meet any demand for bought isk. It is this demand we wish to keep to a minimum in order to keep the troublemakers out. That is why we want to appeal to the community and raise awareness to the fact that every billion bought, needs to be macro mined, stolen or scammed.
I don't think anyone will argue isk sales are good.
Quote: The best action that can be taken to battle macro miners for example is at the disposal of the players themselves. They can simply not do business with them. They will not keep macro mining if nobody wants their ISK.
Well for the year I've been here I've still seen macro miners, including those in major alliances. Also just because you are a macro miner it does not mean you are an isk seller. Macro mining is bad (for the reasons you listed) even if it never turns into rl cash. The economy is still fubar, and alliances using them still get massive resources they use to crush other alliances that do not use them.
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:41:00 -
[99]
Quote: You can call us hypocrites for allowing GTC sales for isk but that still doesn't nullify any of the points that have been made about the dark sides of the RMT business. The dark sides we are trying to keep at bay.
Yes the RMT business is awful for most games, eve included, and I'm glad CCP does something to prevent it. I suppose it would be really nice to know just how much of a something is happening though. If you ban 400 macro miners tomorrow, we won't know. If you close 40 isk buyers accounts we won't know.
I do think CCP is being hypocritical for GTC sales, I know I'm not alone in this. I'm not saying its 'as bad as' some guy trying to sell on ebay, but it still causes effects in the game which harm its sandbox purity. What I don't know is just how much effect this has and really no one knows but CCP as they can count the GTC sales. I'm quite tempted to see just how much cash I could raise selling GTC's at this point, I hate mining and ratting isn't the same with the big war on. Economically it makes sense for me, I make more an hour rl than I can make isk wise, its just something that seems 'wrong' to me.
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Samirol
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.28 17:15:00 -
[100]
This is extremely hypocritical.
You can of course, buy your way to the top by buying GTCs and selling them for ISK. We don't mind that, as we get the cash.
You can also offer out-of-game services for ISK too. We don't mind this, as it keeps our customers happy so we keep getting they money.
You can also farm characters and sell them for ISK too, because again, we've already gotten the subscription money for them.
This is the worst dev blog ever.
http://www.iknowderek.com/
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Mjnari
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.02.28 17:19:00 -
[101]
Writing a blog on ISK<->Cash without mentioning GTCs and at least talking about them? /ignore
This is exactly why dev blogs suck. How could you even begin to think about writing this blog without mentioning the above?!
------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi. |
Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 17:19:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 28/02/2007 17:21:39
Originally by: GM Guard ISK that can be bought for GTCs is a very limited supply. Only a portion of our playerbase uses GTCs so selling to them is the only way to aquire ISK through GTCs. Once their demand for GTCs has been met there is no more isk to be had from them.
There are 17 listed GTC sellers each selling 2 types of code. this makes 34 available codes to me. a quick look at the ISK conversion gives me 7.6bil if i purchased 1 card from each site. is the supply that limited that i couldnt buy 1 card from each reseller ? Im assuming that these resellers have enough codes to supply more than just 1 code per site :/ Once their demand for GTC's has been met they will purchase more from CCP to help satisfy the GROWING demand for GTC's
**PS. a years subscription to eve in ISK is only 1.5Bil at current prices \o/ Free EvE
Originally by: GM Guard You can call us hypocrites for allowing GTC sales for isk but that still doesn't nullify any of the points that have been made about the dark sides of the RMT business. The dark sides we are trying to keep at bay.
you make valid points which we are all aware of already. we shouldnt encourage ISK by other means but this doesnt make CCP exempt from also providing encouragement. how much does hypocrisy cost nowdays ? Kerching to CCP for every ú $ Ñ Ç spent on GTC's
Originally by: GM Guard P.s. Thank you all for taking the time to read the blog and for commenting. There are differences to be found but your feedback is always appreciated.
TYVM thanks for listening, we will do our own thing, please move on. . .
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isAzmodeus
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Posted - 2007.02.28 17:36:00 -
[103]
This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
The only profit for CCP would be if people bought GTCs and didn't use them, or if it had a huge effect on subscription numbers, which it doesn't.
Also, since there is no cash-out, it has less of an economic pressure to macro-mine or exploit to get vast ammounts of isk. Yes, someone could do that to pay for GTCs, but they can't do it to make $1000s on ebay.
Last, CCP will never offer direct sales of GTCs for isk, as that would cut into their cash flow. In that model, they are losing the $ for a subscription, but not gaining any money. They just gain an isk-drain.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:04:00 -
[104]
Originally by: isAzmodeus
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
You missed another person ..
PERSON R (reseller) buys the GTC from CCP
CCP dont lose any subscription time from Person B. because it has already been pre purchased by the reseller. the benefit of buying GTC's with isk is that Person B saves RL cash. he can effectivly get a trial account, make 150mil then buy a 30day GTC and never part with RL cash for his playing time. Person R has already paid for him in advance.
the laundering occurs like this. follow the cash trail. . .
CCP >> Reseller >> Player >> ISK.
Havent you ever wondered where the players in the forums get their GTC's from ? This is what CCP are supporting. If your a macroer, farmer etc. then all you need to do is either sell the isk earnt ingame directly or buy a GTC using ISK and sell the GTC for RL cash. You could even become a reseller if you set up a website for yourself and buy GTC's from CCP. CCP get the ú either from the reseller or player they dont loose out in fact they benefit because ISK>GTC to provide subscription generates more accounts for CCP. CCP have stated on more than one occasion that GTC's for ISK generate growth. Its just another person paying for your account :(
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Nisse Owned
The Order of Chivalry
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:22:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Nisse Owned on 28/02/2007 18:24:01 Good blog, but i still got a few thoughts... For first, do you have any other method of finding the isk sellers without a player reporting them?
Also something someone mentioned, -snip- it if its against the rules but bleh... If you click the isk seller ads on a page like eveinfo.com, they will need to pay the site owner some cash for the click, just as long as you dont buy from their site you can kill off their business by doing it once every day or so
The thing with isk selling that annoy me the most is the fact that people live on it as a work... they dont have any regular work, just sit with 10 alts all day long and macro mine in jita...
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GM Nova
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:49:00 -
[106]
Originally by: isAzmodeus This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
Wow, so we actually lose money when players subscribe?
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GM Nova
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:49:00 -
[107]
Originally by: isAzmodeus This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
Wow, so we actually lose money when players subscribe?
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Sali Ennt
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!".
It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP.
As several other people in this thread have pointed out, exchanging a GTC for ISK is a form of RMT. Right now it is a three step process: CCP sells a time code, which then gets sold to a player, which then gets exchanged for ISK.
Why not eliminate the middleman? That would generate some cash for CCP.
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Typhoid Mary
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:18:00 -
[109]
Originally by: GM Nova
Originally by: isAzmodeus This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
Wow, so we actually lose money when players subscribe?
Was thinking the same thing when I read that!
I am sure CCP knows they put themselves between a rock and a hard place with the GTC sales. Is it damaging to the economy in EVE? Sure it is - but not even close to half as bad as what the sweat shop farmers are doing by exploiting multiple resources. While it it hypocritical in some ways, I don't see them having much of a choice here, nor have I seen any valid solutions from the naysayers.
Those who think there should be simple sales for ISK directly through CCP, need to get their heads out of their rear end. If there is no income, there is no game.
The implementation of the secure trade system will most definitely keep the handling of petitions of this nature down to a minimum and give the GM's tools to make swift calls on petitions of this nature. There is no doubt the resource time spent on this was stupidly high.
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Seth Enkar
Gallente High Guard Argosy
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:57:00 -
[110]
You forgot to put Macromining on your list of evils fueled by isk buying....i hate macrominers
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EscapeArtist
Caldari Xenotech Federation and Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:03:00 -
[111]
If you are going to make a Dev blog on such a hot topic as æRL isk purchaseÆ at least respond to the counters the gaming community are making.
Proper debates require you to further back up your original statements, following them being countered by gamers.
Personally if you gain isk yourselves though the sale of GTC or buy on eBay, they both seem to produce the end result, the player getting a boost, and some faceless individual (CCP or other) walking off with your RL cash. ------ I am Legend |
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GM Nova
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:33:00 -
[112]
Let's get real here people. There is a fundemental misunderstanding as to the motivation behind CCPs decision to allow and support GTCs for isk.
We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited. We want to allow them a chance to enjoy EVE. If there are players who have the means and are willing to pay for their subscription in exchange for isk, we fully support that.
The demand is fixed. You can't endlessly sell GTCs for isk unless there is demand for it.
In any case, the blog is not about GTC sales, it's about selling and buying ingame items for real money. I find it alarming if players do not agree that this is a problem which needs to be addressed.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:34:00 -
[113]
Everyone says that Macromining is terrible and destroying EVE etc. THis may be so but it seems more like dogma then a reasoned argument. The normal problem caused by farming Mudflation doesn't directly apply.
Mudflation happens in a game like UO or WoW when farmers generate currency directly from the system. THis money is then put into circulation (via sales) and so more and more money enters the game causing prices to climb.
But macro farmers in EVE are not farming money they are farming minerals. Minerals in EVE are a good. When they sell these minerals on the market to obtain isk to sell they are actually devaluing the currency thus causing deflation not inflation. Prices drop.
Is this bad or good? Its hard to say, cheap minerals mean cheap production which tends to help manufacturers and consumers but hurts producers. In EVE this means that loot and mining lose value and production and purchasing power overall go up. Another way to look at it is that each isk you earn directly from the game is worth more and each item you earn worth less (with some exceptions due to rarity etc).
It certainly means that low sec mining is less rewarding and that can be seen as a bad thing for new players. On the other hand it means that ships and fittings are cheaper for new players which is good for new players.
One thing is pretty clear and thats that it is not destroying EVE or the EVE economy. Now if the farmers do come up with a way to farm isk directly out of the system (say mission farming) then the picture changes somewhat.
Personally I don't like macromining because of purely social reasons. I don't like people in my game just to make money and I don't like other players getting ahead by spending money instead of playing. Of course I also don't like griefers playing my game just to harrass people. Its tempting to ascribe all sorts of negative effects that don't really exist to things and people we don't like.
The general argument for isk selling as I understand it is that some people have a lot of time to spend in the game and others don't. SOme people would rather trade money to avoid "grinding" or repetitive activites to earn money.
A counter argument to this is that doing this devalues the person who spent the hourts' time. On the other hand it also acts to give it a value. How many times have you heard or read someone giving their MMO character a dollar value (usually inflated )?
CCP has the right to allow or disallow any form of isk trading, character swapping etc that it wants in order to provide what they believe is a good play experience. I jsut find it interesting to examine the feelings and concepts arround isk selling.
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Sali Ennt
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:17:00 -
[114]
Originally by: GM Nova
We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited.
Then why is GTC to ISK trading allowed in countries where access to credit cards is not severely limited?
I will accept that CCP has good intentions, but the reality is that GTC trading is just a legitimate form of ISK buying - with most of the issues outlined in the dev blog.
Say, for example, I bought $150,000 in time cards and exchanged them for ISK. How is the damage I can do with that kind of cash any different than the damage I can do with a similar amount of cash bought directly from an ISK broker?
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Maghnus
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:21:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Maghnus on 28/02/2007 21:22:47 Edited by: Maghnus on 28/02/2007 21:21:36 Allow me to present a possible solution to the problems that GM Guard mentions with CCP regulating GTC to isk conversion. The problems he outlines in his response post as well as the overall problem of RL -> isk conversion described in his blog could be mitigated by taking the following steps:
- Starting as soon as possible, CCP takes over all distribution of GTCs - no more 3rd party resellers, period.
- CCP integrates Paypal payment as a form of subscription or GTC payment - a main reason to purchase GTCs as opposed to subscribing or buying directly from CCP currently
- Integrate GTC purchasing with account management screen - after purchasing a code from CCP via the account management screen, list "Time Code - x0 Days" as a current asset on that account and provide two buttons under it: Transfer (the current GTC sale method) and Apply. Obviously this would have to be fleshed out a bit by CCP's talented web design team.
- Limit quantity of GTCs purchased to equal the time credit of GTCs purchased (i.e. one 90 day or three 30 day codes in a three month period)
- Retain current restrictions on GTC resale and instant application after secure transfer rules
While the above steps will not totally eliminate isk purchasing via GTCs, it will make it limit it severely. Other than selling for isk, characters have no need to purchase more than three 30 day or one 90 day code every three months. Period. I challenge anyone to present an argument to the contrary.
Players who want to continue to pay for their accounts with GTCs purchased with isk will remain able to do so. Cards will remain transferrable while reducing the ability for wealthier characters to purchase large numbers of GTCs, and sell them for billions of isk providing real strategic advantages over characters with fewer out of game resources.
Allowing players to pay for subscriptions or GTCs with Paypal will reduce the number of players paying for the game with GTCs directly but keep the revenue approximately the same as the revenue transitions from GTC sales to subscription sales. I imagine Paypal fees are roughly equivalent to the percentage CCP pays its GTC resellers.
Real money conversion to isk is incredibly damaging to the game; the solution I propose does not eliminate it entirely, but mitigates it substantially. The amount of isk a player could "purchase" with out of game funds would effectively be limited to the approximate in game value of a 30 day GTC per month, or around 150M isk. While not a total elimination of real money to isk conversion, it improves the current situation substantially.
All these changes can be made without CCP 'losing' GTC revenue - a primary concern cited by GM Guard. In fact CCP might make 1-2% more revenue selling the GTCs directly. Current customers funding their accounts directly through GTCs (i.e. buying the GTC from a 3rd party source and applying it directly to their account) will more than likely be converted to subscription customers or will be paying CCP monthly directly.
Limiting the volume of codes an individual account can purchase in a given time frame controls the overall market volume, as well as making it increasingly difficult for individuals to convert large numbers of GTCs to isk quickly. It also provides CCP with direct controls on the overall GTC market volume. If CCP feels the problem with GTC -> isk conversion remains too large, even after implementing these steps, CCP could further restrict purchasing frequency.
That's enough for now. What say you, CCP? |
Dunedon
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:32:00 -
[116]
Maghnus ... I see a pretty basic issue, which is that your solution won't allow for people to play EVE that have an adversion to buying online. My understanding is that GTC's can be purchased in person, allowing these people the ability to play.
Now, I'm not sure if that's a large % of the EVE population, but they would have to be considered.
- Dunedon ------ WYSIWYG: I don't post with an Alt ... if I die in game for having an opinion, at least I know someone listened. - Dunedon |
Maghnus
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:36:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Maghnus on 28/02/2007 21:33:19
Originally by: Dunedon Maghnus ... I see a pretty basic issue, which is that your solution won't allow for people to play EVE that have an adversion to buying online. My understanding is that GTC's can be purchased in person, allowing these people the ability to play.
Now, I'm not sure if that's a large % of the EVE population, but they would have to be considered.
- Dunedon
That's fine, allow locally sold GTCs to remain. I would imagine they represent a very small percentage of the overall GTC market. Just to make sure they aren't being used as a loophole my proposed system, give the codes a different generic prefix so CCP can track their use. If they appear to be abused CCP could then evaluate the number sold (they'd be able to track them) vs. the perceived damage being done and act accordingly. |
Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 22:06:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Selzer
Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in.
2) With ISK selling you can cash out your in game assets for RL currency.
If you can "cash out" you can move/launder money internatinally. Many governments don't like this and WILL squash CCP if they let this go on.
Dal
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
CCP obviously doesn't like people buying their way ahead in the game (either that or the Dev Blog is lying), so the only reason I can see that they would allow GTC sales is because it is a revenue source for them.
I think that GTC sales are also a way to help players who don't have the cash flow, but would like to continue playing the game and have some iskies in the wallet. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 22:20:00 -
[119]
Lol. This is probably the first Devblog that I actually laughed at it's content. How can you have a policy declaring RMT's evil and bannable without mentioning GTCs? Ridiculous.
GTCs allow you to buy isk with real currency, and sell isk for hard RL cash too. While GTCs are around, its pointless ranting and raving about RMTs- because GTCs are a legitimate CCP endorsed form of RMT.
When GTCs are fixed, then I'll get excited against combating isk sellers. Until that point, I'm filled with an unstoppable apathy about the whole matter. --------
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum most problems can be solved with chloroform.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.28 22:43:00 -
[120]
First, a real life example... I live in Texas, it is against the law in this state to gamble or to run a gambling joint... a casino as it were... but the state has a lottery...
If I pay for your account, and to repay me you send me 50 mil ISK a month, we can both lose our accounts... unless I buy a GCT Lottery ticket...
GCT's are CCP's way of helping poor (IRL) players play... and so they play and use ISK to bribe someone else to pay for their accounts... better to not let them play, give them a reason to go get a job and pay for the account like the rest of us do.
Because I am a Low-Speed High-Sec loving Carebear, I do not care if someone else wants to buy ISK, I want something I can't afford, I save up and buy it when I can afford it (sounds like Real life there too)... I do not care if that other person grinding on an asteroid near me is buying ISK, Buying GCT's or what ever else...
I am glad I can have some fun playing a game I pay for with money I made working many hours a day...
By the way, who do I forward the "Wanna Buy ISK Cheap?" eve-mails to?
Noob in training...
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Karmae
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 23:14:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Marcusi
Originally by: GM Guard EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Thank you, that brightened my day.
Had to chuckle at that line too ==================== There is 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.02.28 23:26:00 -
[122]
Originally by: GM Nova
Originally by: isAzmodeus This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.
Person A spends $ for 30 days. Person B spends isk for the GTC. CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.
Wow, so we actually lose money when players subscribe?
Flawed logic FTW!!! (Not you, TN )
Person "A" is a paying subscriber, and decides to sell some GTC's for some extra iskies. He spends his usually 14.95 per month or whatever plan he is on, plus $30 per GTC (I've never even looked into this, is it $30 for 90 days?)
He then sells those GTC's to Person "B" who has no RL money or has no access to the "usual" payment methods.
CCP does NOT lose money -- well, maybe a few dollars if the GTC's are $30 / 90 days (as I pay $34.95 per 3 months, IIRC) -- but they are still getting the $30 for the GTC, just from "A" not "B."
I hate RMT, and think CCP is a bit naive on this issue, but I think they are 100% right in their statements regarding GTC sales compared to RMT vendors like IGE or ebayers.
Look at it like so, each 90 day card sells for what, 100m-ish? So lets say some rich fool buys 20 GTC's and sells them, resulting in a cool 2 Billion isk for about $600. First off, this guy is an idiot for spending $600 on imaginary money, IMNSHO. Secondly, that is what, one dreadnaught? Not even a well fit one? How much impact does that have on the game? How much impact does it even have in a minor territorial conflict? I know one free dread would not have changed the outcome of any of the wars I've participated in.
Now, compare that to Cheater McArsehat who runs a RMT "business" out of Indonesia. He doesn't even play EVE, he is just making money with a bunch of various shady operations -- hacking accounts, macro-mining, escrow scams, whatever. He is raking in billions per DAY and selling them for RMT. Plus, ruining the market for casual empire players.
There is a big difference. I still think CCP should stop the GTC sales and figure out some other way to allow players with no access to traditional pay methods. But I don't think it is fair to compare RMT vendors with the fairly limited GTC market. ----- I AM NOT AN ALT DO NOT CLICKY MY POSTS You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Nero Scuro
Caldari Jejaikaro Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.28 23:28:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Nero Scuro on 28/02/2007 23:24:32 Free cookie and a hug to everyone who rallied against the hypocrisy of that blog. I got all ready to come here and incoherently rant after reading the blog only to find... you'd all gone off on incoherent rants already.
Truly beautiful. :O
Originally by: GM Nova Let's get real here people. There is a fundemental misunderstanding as to the motivation behind CCPs decision to allow and support GTCs for isk.
We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited. We want to allow them a chance to enjoy EVE. If there are players who have the means and are willing to pay for their subscription in exchange for isk, we fully support that.
The demand is fixed. You can't endlessly sell GTCs for isk unless there is demand for it.
In any case, the blog is not about GTC sales, it's about selling and buying ingame items for real money. I find it alarming if players do not agree that this is a problem which needs to be addressed.
I like how CCP are pretty much saying here - if you piece together what they've said in this thread and in the blog - that they're perfectly willing to compromise the quality and integrity of the gameplay for their current subscribers if it means getting subscriptions from people who could not otherwise pay.
Nice one CCP.
If they really wanted to let people play for ISK there are other (admittedly dubious) methods available (these two methods are just off the top of my head, try being imaginative);
Advertising for companies ingame ala Anarchy Online to people who subscribe using ISK to recuperate expenses,
AND/OR
forcing players who subscribe using ISK to wait in a queue if the servers are getting laggy, allowing paying customers into the server unhindered. As my (limited) understanding of servers goes, it costs pretty much the same to keep a server up regardless of how many people are using it at any one time. Obviously you only pay for a server/bandwidth as high as you expect to be used by your customers, which in CCP's case is about 30k connections or so before things start to really lag. So if things are getting laggy just kick those who aren't actually paying for the priveledge of using the server. Although CCP would probably lose subscriptions from people who can pay with cash but would rather pay using ISK... I don't know, CCP would still lose money this way over GTC selling but at least they wouldn't be compromising their gameplay to give those without CCs a chance to play.
Not that THAT excuse holds either. Your country developed enough for you to get an ISP that lets you play EVE? Then your country has cheques and international postage services too no doubt, so you can still pay for EVE using paybycash. ___
Nice one CCP |
St'oto
Tears of Redemption Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:04:00 -
[124]
Edited by: St''oto on 01/03/2007 01:02:21 Good post Senior GM guard and I would like to thank you for your help on my account : )
EDIT: Hope you get that isk seller/hacker banned : )
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Anabolicor
Minmatar Pangalactic Cab Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.01 02:03:00 -
[125]
I don't give a **** if anyone in this game is buying his way to the top or not.
Sure it is lame tactics about as lame as using a second account for scouting gates or making extra ISK via mining.
But i couldn't care less about that- me is playing this game for fun otherwise it wouldn't be a game.
I am having the same fun in game using low class t1 standard fitted ships as flying around in billion faction crap ships with the most overprized fitting one can think of.
To everybody who sees this game as e-peen contest- Congratulations for owning me ingame - absolutely shattered I move on having my fun.
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Gzashon
Black Projects Development
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Posted - 2007.03.01 03:06:00 -
[126]
Wow, these dev blogs are making me cringe.
First the "Let's nerf missions (again!)" and "PVE is really PVP" blog, and now this one. I don't think I could write more than a few sentences about ISK RMTing without mentioning GTC sales, its hypocrisy at its most blatant--you're trading ISK for real money via another product. No matter how you cut it, the only difference is who gets the real money, CCP, or the farmers. As for them being in limited supply, i have never bought any but have looked around on a few occasions and I don't think i would have trouble buying a grip of them, selling them and making a pile of ISK. Since this game doesn't have a "leveling pressure", for me removing the "money pressure" would make doing things somewhat pointless, so thats not they way i want to go.
...but really, this discussion comes up in every MMO on the planet. Devs go "omg RMTing is baaaad, mkay. It ruins the game for everybody. Don't do it, you'll get in trouble. We're getting rid of bots & farmers". And, without exception, every dev or company representative is lying.
RMT makes the world go round, and here's why:
1. Farmer and bot accounts bring in alot of cash for CCP, and every other MMO owner out there. All that ISK / gold / adena takes alot of toons to make. Sure, ban them every once in a while so they have to relevel or retrain to get back where they were. In a mega-MMO like WoW, its not a big deal (they routinely ban more accounts in a single sweep than EVE has in total), but for a smaller MMO it makes a real difference in revenue.
2. RMT keeps players playing. Many people don't see why they should have to work another job, a virtual one, to have virtual fun. In many cases, spending an extra hour at work nets more ISK than an hour making money ingame for themselves. Some people just want to get ahead faster. Some need to replace losses. More people than you think could not hack it, at least at one point or another, without RMT.
3. RMT keeps the market stable. Farmers are known for supplying incomprehensibly huge amount of raw materials to the market. Farmers and bots mean cheap ore. Its not as huge a moderator in EVE as in other MMOs--mainly because of those licenses to print money, also known as T2 BPOs that manage to inflate prices independently of material values, but its a factor nonetheless. In other games, like Lineage 2, where crafting that godly lvl 75 S-grade bow might require a few million bones, skin, ore and such, farmers make it possible for the average player to do so.
For these reasons, no developer who wants to see their game continue to exist will sweep down and crush RMTers completely. It would be instant suicide--and don't be fooled, a few lines of code could easily track 90% of the RMT transactions (or more) automatically. A few lines of code could detect most, if not all, macroers the instant they start their macro. These things exist because developers allow them to.
Its just that simple.
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Cavver
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Posted - 2007.03.01 03:11:00 -
[127]
Well, it seems that the GTC sales went down since the new system was introduced. I see 90 days go for 305 mil ISK now (they were 360-380) which means the number of GTCs that CCP sell dropped or will drop soon. With this blog they're only trying to boost their sales a bit by scarring away potential isk buyers that arent "clever" enough to use the GTC system.
It's so pathetic how you, dear CCP, take us for some fools. Do you think that we arent able to see the whole picture ??? How can you hold your spine straight when you say ISK buying IS BAD and, on the other hand, you allow ISK buying ????
Tell me what is the difference between this 2 scenarios:
1. Someone is buying ISK from eBay or other ISK seller. Shortly, CASH = ISK 2. Someone is buying GTCs from CCP and then sell it on forums for ISK. Shortly, CASH = GTC = ISK
How are they different in the terms of "bought ISK is bad for the economy, bla bla" ? Isnt in both cases the ISK aqcuired with RL money ?? Just because the ISK buyer is using "one more step" to get his currency, his ISK doesnt affect the economy anymore ??
I know you allow GTC for ISK sales to boost your playerbase and it's working (i would not have 3 accounts if i would have to pay for all 3 with my card) BUT at least have the decency not to post a blog like this. All i can understand from it is that you think we are stupid and you can fool as with a questionable analysis and some banning threats !!
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Rumbaar
Solitary Forsaken
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Posted - 2007.03.01 03:35:00 -
[128]
Long post ... GM Blog.
Short answer, please purchase GTC's (so CCP gets their money) and sell them legally in game for ISK! Real life cash for ISK ... for some reason I can't see the difference ... other than making sure CCP gets their cut.
If it was truly about the player base and economy GTC selling for ISK wouldn't be allowed either... ___________________
Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail |
Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.03.01 03:51:00 -
[129]
So you don't like the fact that PPL have payed for ISK and payed whole alliances to do their dirty work?
If this is the case stop the GTC trade for ISK as the same thing can be done that way!
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JohnLukePicard
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Posted - 2007.03.01 06:19:00 -
[130]
OMG where the *%^& was I when all this was going on ?
< The noob that has being paying RL cash to play eve for the last 2 years when he could of been playing it for free and making money at the same time ...
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Radica
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.01 07:52:00 -
[131]
Hey, I'm pretty good at covering my ears with my hands and shouting "LA LA LA LA.." at the top of my voice, can I get some work with CCP/ISD?
You lot are seriously in denial about the GTCs. Honestly, tell me who has access to a gaming PC and an an internet connection but can't use something like paybycash? Isn't that the whole point of the paybycash service?
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org
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Posted - 2007.03.01 09:04:00 -
[132]
Being on the other end of the situation with regard to GTC from 3rd party purchases, I would just like to offer up this to the lynch mob that generally forms whenever this is brought up, waiving their torches and pitchforks at CCP's gates.
CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.
To say that allowing the 3rd party sale of GTC's is wrong, which I have read in a number of posts, seems to me an idea born of ignorance. There are those like me, for which this is the only way to enjoy Eve.
As far as the resale of GTC's for in game currency, I call that one a carefully calculated decision on CCP's part. It does allow people to use real life currency to get ahead, but it also allows people with in game currency to likewise benefit. The exchange in such a case is not real world cash for in game cash. It's playing time for in game cash. Yes, I understand that someone paid real currency for that time, but the end result is considerably different. These exchanges have, for one, much more limited appeal. You don't get something for nothing (real world cash for imaginary currency) you get nothing (no offense intended by this CCP) for something. It is not a self sustaining cycle for profit like RMT.
I think CCP made a very good attempt at placing controls on the inevitable desire some have for taking an easier road, and at least limiting the effects this would have on the game itself, while at the same time ensuring that such trades would help pay of all those nice hardware upgrades we all now enjoy. There are also some players that would not otherwise be able to support their subs as well, so not all of the effects of this policy are negative. It's wrong, IMO to paint the GTC policy with so broad a brush as to label it "evil".
I've been around online gaming a while now, and have yet to see all RMT type transactions stopped by any game company. It's well and good to stay seated on a moral high horse, but I think it's also a touch naive to believe that simply putting that high moral stand in writing will have any sort of major effect on the reality of the situation.
Kudos to CCP for treading this difficult ground as well as they have, and also to the GM's for helping to keep my in box clean, and the belts open to my mineral munching corpmates who compete daily with the macros. J.A.F.O.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.01 10:23:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Notnearly OnEnough on 01/03/2007 10:22:04 afaik the major way to sell ISK is obviously, you have to have it. and in order to support the large volume of ISK that is available oog, then it has to be transfered, somehow. so, institute an IG money banking system that monitors transfers and figure out the logic of these transfers. in OOG banking this is already done, and the amount that triggers a review of the transfer is only $10,000 USD.
another thing is in order to have ISK you have to make it, and macrominers are the major offender. I think that ORE transfers need to be reviewed. and I think GTC users are the major offenders, I am not saying all are, but the macrominers are mostly from 3rd world places where you can make more money IG than OOG. so watch the timers and ore amounts, check for a GTC and then trigger an alarm to watch the account. if that account transfers their ore to another player, check the recipient. if the recipient gets ore from several players. then they are the ISK pimp.
as far as GTC goes, the only argument i have seen is people buy a GTC and transfer it for ISK to someone in order to make ISK. and I agree, thats the slow road to wealth.
However, there is another side to GTC. let's assume you macromine. and your time is coming to buy another month, well. if you macromine your ore pimp gives you 150m ISK and your macrominer buys another month. the best part is, CCP doesn't know who the macrominer is because they don't have billing info that can be proved.
CCP needs to work with paypal. paypal has a great verification system that checks to see if an account is real by transfering a random amount from 0.01 to $1.00 into your checking account (and that works in ANY country because it uses banking codes not credit companies). Once the amount is verified with a return email stating the random amount you received then they know who you are. from that point on, CCP can set up an automatic transfer and not a credit transfer. The best part of that for CCP is they don't have to pay the credit fees.
anyhow, another thing CCP could do is sell GTC directly using paypal thru this website. and not allow them in other places.
The GTC you get at the local hobby store or whereever could only be used to set-up an account. all future purchase would be made thru the verified paypal or money transfer system.
imho, macrominers and 3rd world labor camps are the source and that's what needs to be addressed |
Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.01 11:04:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe Being on the other end of the situation with regard to GTC from 3rd party purchases, I would just like to offer up this to the lynch mob that generally forms whenever this is brought up, waiving their torches and pitchforks at CCP's gates.
CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.
I'm not saying I disagree with you in the short term, however it was also stated that Paypal is getting added sometime soon(TM) to the "MY Account" section as a payment option, so... long term when/if that ever sees the light of day the need for GTC's reduces. It won't remove the need for GTC's completely, but it'll certainly make a dent in there actual need.
OK, that said, if every customer who can buy GTC's through Paypal switches to paying the sub with paypal directly to ccp instead of to an intermediary then we'll see if the market for GTC's just dries up on it's own. It would be interesting to see exactly how many people actually buy GTC's from the high street.
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
TomParad0x
Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.03.01 11:45:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Arlenik Emmanouelik This is a joke, right?
You have people from the community who write for EVE magazine. They have direct links in their articles to their websites relating to the article(ex; EVE Tanking HERE. Some of those sites have advertisements for buying ISK for real money. So, how is CCP going to indirectly advertise ISK selling, and then have a GM write a BS blog about how RMT is bad?
CCP you're up for review.
The ads on websites like that are generated from google, afaik, based on the content of the website. Since you can google "eve" and a ton of isk selling sites come up, it is safe to assume that isk selling ads will be brought up in google advertisements. However, I think if the website should be responsible and ask google to remove isk selling ads from their ad service, or remove the service entirely.
And yea, any word on GTCs? --Sig-- Anything posted by me is my opinion and not that of my corp or alliance. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.01 12:28:00 -
[136]
Incidentally, after reading this blog, I went on a bit of a forage for Dev related GTC statements, and found this gem from Kieron back in 2005:
Originally by: Kieron We allowed the trade of ISK for Game Time as an extension of the policy allowing the trade of ISK for game related services like TS server rental, forum signatures, etc. When we discussed allowing the trade of ISK for Game Time, the thought that we were inadvertently allowing the 'sale of ISK for RL cash' didn't occur to us. The decision to allow the trade was not profit driven.
When Sony came out with their microcharge servers (sale of game items for RL cash), the internal CCP discussion lasted about 2 minutes. The discussion about Second Life's business model lasted longer, but the results of the discussions were the same. We do not have, nor do we want to have, the ability to clone Tranquility and start up a microcharge server.
We've discussed changing the police on allowing the trade of ISK for Game Time a number of times. For the time being, the policy is going to stay as it is. Just like the macro miner/ISK farmer issue, we don't have the manpower or resources to police a policy disallowing trades of this nature. We will re-open discussion on this issue again.
In a nutshell, we tried to be nice and do something for the benefit of the players. Some players turned this around to where it backfired on us.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
In a nut shell: we didn't mean it to be a form of RMT, but thats what it is. We don't like it, but aren't going to try and stop it. Its all your fault, player base. We might reconsider in the future.
Time to reconsider, perhaps?! GTCs have been a constant stain on CCP's record since they were introduced, and a constant point of contention among the community. There are people who rely on GTCs for their subscription, but I feel it'd be more productive if CCP figured out a way of helping them in a new way, that doesn't harm everyone else on TQ. --------
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum most problems can be solved with chloroform.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.01 12:37:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.
Oh, and just to be helpful, really: One of CCP's payment options is PayByCash.com. Notably, they support the "put money in an envelope witha stamp on it" method of payment, and unless I'm very much mistaken, they themselves support PayPal too. If you want to use PayPal, check them out just in case. --------
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum most problems can be solved with chloroform.
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Abominog
Gallente Pyrrhon's Salvage Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.03.01 12:53:00 -
[138]
Ok so after reading this mess I have a question,bear with me I could be mistaken in my knowledge and if so nevermind.
It has been said that GTC's are helpful because some countries dont have a credit or debit system in place to pay your subscription with.But I was to believe that the only way to get the game is download online,and to do that,you would have to set up and pay for the original purchase of the game online.
So if they can purchase and download the original game client/pay for it,why cant they pay there subscription in the same manner they bought their account with.
like I said,I could be mistaken since I dont know if a person can buy the game client with a GTC.
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.03.01 13:31:00 -
[139]
Originally by: GM Guard
4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!
As you probably realize by now, ISK sellers go to great lengths to get their hands on ISK. Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency. The players involved bought a large number of expensive blueprints over a long period of time with the purpose of monopolizing the market on certain items. They attempted to drive prices as high as possible so that they could skim more money off the top and sell more ISK on Ebay. This went on for some time and I am sure that a large number of the playerbase unknowingly felt the effect of this when buying ships and modules.
This conglomerate was found out and brought down by your friendly GMs and all those involved given a lifelong vacation from EVE. Their precious pile of blueprints will be reseeded to lucky players through the blueprint lottery. This is a perfect example of how those willing to buy ISK for real money can directly cause inflation and can end up costing the rest of the playerbase a lot of ISK.
It is not the isk buyers fault when t2 conglomerates emerge and use their monopoly to raise prices!
The irony of it all is that the real money trade in this specific case is a good thing, because it provided a reason to break this cartel. Had they not sold their isk on ebay, they would still be playing and increasing prices even more!
Don't blame game design flaws on isk buyers.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes The OSS
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Posted - 2007.03.01 15:58:00 -
[140]
Gm Guard while you are still reading this topic could you point GM Nova back to his blog and make one final post in it instead of leaving it abbandoned... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
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Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.03.01 17:22:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Don Temujin on 01/03/2007 17:21:28 Quick heads-up for those who get confused between ISK eBay-ing and GTC selling:
eBay'ed ISK allows people to buy their way into virtually infinite in-game wealth at the expense of the non-capped pool of mineral/resources, which means RL financial edge translates in unrestricted in-game-edge. A secondary effect is to drive in-game prices crazy: mass-farmed resources plummet in value, while prices of high-end stuff bought by ISK buyers go through the roof.
GTC sales are limited by the use actual players' have for GTCs: you won't be able to get more ISK for your GTCs than what people may need to cover for their subscriptions. GTC sales in fact only change the distribution of who pays RL money vs those who pay in ISK, for a (comparatively) constant total number of subscriptions.
Put another way: GTC sales are an automatic balancing method that evens the playfield among the time-challenged (who buy GTCs for RL cash) and the fiancially-challenged (who buy GTCs for ISK).
Oh, and about this: Originally by: GM Guard EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.
I don't know what is the scariest thought here: that a CCP representative dares feeding us such blatant BS, or that he possibly is clueless enough to honestly believe what he wrote...
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.01 17:54:00 -
[142]
GM Guard,
I was thinking, Your (Or CCP's) reason for selling GCT's and allowing them to be sold for ISK is in it's reasoning good, it allows people to play that can't afford to pay in cash...
There is also a market for ISK otherwise the ISK sales would not be found...
Why not have CCP sell ISK for cash and buy ISK for credit?
It's simply a book keeping effort... As a player with more time then money, I go to my account and sell CCP some of my ISK, the ISK is withdrawn from my account and placed in the ISK Market... my account is "Credited" with a cash value that pays for my account subscription (and only my account subscription)...
On the other hand, There is this BPO I really want, but can't afford the 1.75 Billion ISK, so I go to the ISK Market, and buy the ISK from CCP...
No more GCT scams selling bad codes, you can undercut the non-CCP isk sellers and you have added another method of income to CCP...
Where do we access this ISK market? Why, right here on this website... I log in to my account... <--- Select a link there to the ISK market and buy or sell ISK... and the Credit card associated with my account is charged if I buy ISK or my account is credited if I am selling.
As long as there is no way for me to "Profit" by buying and selling ISK, it would limit abuse... and in fact I should lose a tad bit if I were to buy ISK from the market and then turn around and sell those same ISK's.
As we are not really able to point and say if ISK sales or ISK purchases are greater at this point, CCP could choose to either "seed" the ISK market at start, then allow it to manage itself (only be able to sell the ISK that it bought) or just print money (Unlimited ISK for sale).
A player that really really wants the ISK will get it, if the cost may be their account they will find a way around it... If that "Need" for ISK could be filled safely (without the potential loss of the account) there would be no reason to use an outside source to buy the ISK.
For the flamers, I am not supporting the purchase of ISK, I am just acknowledging that there is already a market and looking to help CCP profit from it.
Noob in training...
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R0ot
InNova Tech Inc Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.01 18:29:00 -
[143]
Very informative read, a mate of mine bought isk once and i nearly flipped off my head at him when he informed me, sorry not going to name him though he learned from his mistake and is now a hard working Eve player. Also the macro miners mine 23/7 don't forget that hour or so of downtime
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Terghon Tu
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.01 20:03:00 -
[144]
Firstly, loved the article. I've dealt with "gold farmers" in several games, including EVE and they always affect the game for the worse. I think your blog didn't go far enough, however. Perhaps because you don't have any solid proof of some things, so you couldn't officially mention them. I know there are some alliances that run 10/10 complexes, farming them continuously, and sell the isk for cash to maintain multiple shared accounts. I also know that it is very likely that some of the macro-miners are "sweatshop" style businesses.
On the separate issue of GTC selling, I agree it sends a bit of a mixed message, but that the intent behind it isn't so a few people can makes lots of isk using real-life money. I buy Game Time Cards from a corpmate that sells them. If he couldn't sell them, and I couldn't buy them, chances are my real-life income wouldn't support playing EVE. Also, there's a limit to the number of GTC someone can sell. Even with reselling and trading of cards, what ultimately happens is that someone uses the card to play EVE. That's a limited market. For instance, if I had a three billion isk, I could buy ten 90-day GTC. But seriously, who would buy three years of time in advance? Isk selling directly for cash however, is virtually unlimited. Anyone that buys isk, could buy more isk if their real-life cash could handle it. That encourages the isk sellers to do whatever they can to get more isk to sell, regardless of how it screws up the game.
I also agree with a couple posters above that it would be nice to see some weekly or monthly statistics on the number of people suspended/banned for isk selling/buying. ---------- The right to do something doesn't make doing it right. |
Cayote XIII
Gallente Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.01 20:37:00 -
[145]
Well, it seems to me if CCP was really serious about stopping the sale of Isk for RL money, they could spend a couple thousand dollars buying it on eBay or on various web sites and track the folks down that way. I do realize that if they did, it simply change the way it gets sold...
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.03.01 22:03:00 -
[146]
Although I think it is great news that CCP busted a tech 2 blueprint cartel that were selling ISK, I do wonder how many more ISK farmers are out there that they are missing or ignoring for lack of proof.
I've reported several macro-ratters and would really love some statistics on just how many of these guys get banned perhaps on a weekly or monthly basis. Is there a problem publishing these figures? Surely it is good PR to show ythe community ou're policing the players effectively and adequately.
I'd also like to comment on GTC. I appreciate that some people do not have credit cards etc necessary to pay for the game, however I think the GTC system is too open to abuse.
For example:
I wonder if I was a day old player and bought a stack of GTC's, how much real money it would take me to buy enough GTC to buy a tech 2 blueprint capable of producing the ISK to then support the rest of my gameplay for as long as EVE exists.
I don't know GTCs well enough myself to do the maths, but I'm pretty sure that this highlights two issues with (i) GTCs selling 'time' to get ahead enough to then make the game self sustaining for as long as some tech 2 BPOs are ISK printers. (ii) Tech 2 BPOs which Oveur has recently suggested will remain in the game indefinately (likely unchallenged I expect in terms of profit margins) without sufficient competition.
GTCs are and admirable concept, but surely there are better ways to get money from people without credit cards etc. BACS transfers, postal orders, paypal for example...
If CCP intend as was stated earlier that they WANT some players to be able to play for free, then I have to ask why? Why should their luck in the tech 2 lottery for example mean they no longer have to play by the same rules as the rest of us...That is preferential treatment and does very little to engender my trust that was shattered with the T20 incident.
On the whole though - good blog and keep up the good work. Though please rethink your GTC sales - maybe a cap per account in terms of buying/selling or something if you really see no alternative.
Cheers, Vyk.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
DirtyHarry
Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.01 22:45:00 -
[147]
Originally by: GM Guard EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world, that is unless CCP is geting the money from the isk sales, then its perfectly fine.
lawl ccp
Havocide - DirtyHarryF-E Homepage F-E Killboard |
Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:12:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
... If CCP intend as was stated earlier that they WANT some players to be able to play for free...
I do not think the GM said they wanted folks to play for free, I think it was more of the idea they did not care all that much about who paid for the account... Players use ISK to buy GCT's from folks who paid the subscription fee's for the time card... so the account is paid for, just not by the person who is playing on that account.
Noob in training...
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Juntos
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Posted - 2007.03.02 00:41:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Juntos on 02/03/2007 00:39:59 Also think this is a little hypocritical, along the same lines as the T2 BPO rubbish and lets nerf our mission runners and try and force them into gank land cos our gank bears are getting lonely and need something to cuddle, err I mean shoot. If you allow GTC's for ISK then you publically morally condone and agree with ISK for RL money. No amount of blather about limited amounts changes this fact.
However, I have no problem with GTC's for ISK, nor do I have a problem with the macro miners, people buying ISK, or people buying characters.
GTC's provide a way for more people to play, hurrah!
Macros reduce the cost of minerals which reduces the cost of items for which the BPO's are widely available. So for these, mostly T1 items, which most new players are using macro mining is a good thing. As it is minerals in game are way over priced.
People buying ISK is just people and you will never stop people using their real life cash to get ahead. It is human nature to want to win and for some people this is all that matters. If you stop it on ebay it will find other ways to happen.
I do have a problem with the spamming and the scamming however, though these would appear to be a daily fact of life in RL as well.
There is only one real solution to ISK farmers, sell the ISK yourselves for the same or less than the ISK farmers. Like it or not this is the only solution that will stop the ISK farmers as their market will be much smaller and there will come a point where it is no longer cost effective to farm isk.
You can double the effect of this by fixing the market problems. FIX T2 BPOs for goodness sake! Just make it possible to buy them if you have the right amount of research points, or sell them on the market. This would rapidly put a stop to the huge ISK profits to be made in that market and reduce the cost of a lot of stuff.
The only other solution to the problem is draconian RL registration processes combined with more traceability of ISK, items etc in game. None of which would be at all popular.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.03.02 02:09:00 -
[150]
What a strange blog when one considers the nature of power in EvE.
Is not owning an army of alts giving people an unfair ingame advantage based on their RL wallet?
Just one alt allows a player to do a great many things that anyone without one cannot (off the top of my head scouting, hauling mined ore, self cyno, remote tanking missions) and I imagine many people feel almost forced to run a second char just to compete.
Im sorry but so long as meta-gaming is supported in all it's forms by CCP I find this blog hard to take seriously.
I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with it, I hasten to add. Simply pointing out that you are saying one thing and doing quite another. The power of two offers of the past, the GTC sales, and the frequent use (misuse?) of meta-gaming tactics without reimbursement all suggest that a level playing field is not supported by CCP while meta-gaming is.
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Smook
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Posted - 2007.03.02 02:57:00 -
[151]
I think that CCP brought this problem to the forum to cover up the recent one with ***... I don't care if some1 use macro as long as it happens via common GUI & the same in-game mechanics applays to it... I guess that CPP would prefer ppl to open rather more accounts & this way gain an advantage over others than buy ISK in RL - somehow it does not supprise me... Maybe CPP should introduce PLAY TIME limits - it is also unfair that one can play 16h a day while some1 else only 2... and so and so...
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Smook
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Posted - 2007.03.02 03:17:00 -
[152]
On the other hand you can legally buy ISK using ETC as a currency...?!
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.03.02 04:12:00 -
[153]
Well buying ISK from others can't hurt the economy that bad, since we can by ISK from you, CCP! _________________________________________________________
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.03.02 04:44:00 -
[154]
Who really wants to go mining? I know that I dont. thank god for macro miners. I am getting a new computer soon, so i recently started a new account so i can mine on one computer and play on the other. I want to be able to fly a t2 fitted hac out into 0.0. right now i cant afford the hac or the fittings. I see hacs going for about 150-200mil, when the base cost is under 18mil. hurray 800%+ profit margins. now lets see, why would anyone want to buy isk?
I wouldnt spend $ for isk. at this moment i cant afford a battleship, but i dont even have the skills to fly or fit one. therefore it doesnt even make sense for me to buy isk for one (or really any other ship/item). currently running level 3 missions in a drake, give me a few weeks ill have about 150million, and the skills for a battleship and fittings. however i have no problem with people who do buy isk. people who are willing to spend more money always get to go ahead. they can take a plane instead of driving, or taking a train, they can cut lines at ski resorts by taking lessons, they can cut the line at amusment parks by getting preimum passes. So why shouldnt people be able to spend a 100$ to get a faction fitted tech 2 ship.
the inflation in the economey is more about supply and demand. (or should we say t2 bpos, and the players that need t2 items)
one of the more intresting aspects of gaming to me is death. in halo its death followed with respawn, in counterstrike its death followed with team respawn at the next round, in a mmo i played it was a loss in percentage of xp which at low leveles was almost nothing, and at highlevels it could be over 10 hours of gameplay. in eve there is loss of ship, and loss of pod. this can be anywhere from loosing a t1 frig with nothing good on it, to loosing a titan and getting podded. 100k-100billon?
as for the spamming i cant say ive been evemailed more than 5 times. solved quickly by pressing the delete button account hacking is the only truely negative evil cartels that drive prices up will occur regardless, reasearching blueprints to resell or to produce t2 items and sell for a rediculous price is good for the cartel regardless of whether they are selling the isk for $ or keeping the isk for themselves.
Originally by: GM Nova
We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited. We want to allow them a chance to enjoy EVE. If there are players who have the means and are willing to pay for their subscription in exchange for isk, we fully support that.
GM Nova, please tell me how to make the 300mil on a 14 day trial so i can buy a time card so i dont have to pay using a credit card. please please please do tell. if you can do that and still have somesort of a life outside of 23/7ing on eve i will eat my shoe, I'll even tape it and put the video on youtube so you guys can all watch
Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!".
oh yea then I thought we dont make money that way
I think the funniest thing about this is they say there is a limited supply for the isk for gtc market and then say they wont do it because they wont get any subscription fees if they directly sold gtc for isk. |
Noriath
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Posted - 2007.03.02 06:01:00 -
[155]
This blog unfortunatly fails to mention that many systems in Eve are designed to give you extra money if you give extra real life currency to CCP. For example the mining system. Do you guys think it's boring because CCP can't make it better? No, it's slow paced and boring so you can make five times the profit if you have five accounts and you run them all at the same time.
Also, why buy or sell ISK if you can get ISK by selling game time codes to other players perfectly legaly, or run a second account and train characters there, then sell them off for outrageous ammounts of ISK, then pay a moderate transfer ammount to CCP to transfer the character.
Let's face it, you can bypass the tidious work of this game, or make it four, five times more profitable perfectly legally if you are willing to pay more money to CCP to buy extra accounts, game time codes and character transfers. This is not considered cheating, even though it boils down to giving you vast advantages over other players, that affect the ingame world no less then evil macro miners and ebay sellers.
From a business standpoint what CCP is doing is perfectly sound, I just think it's not fair to claim that money selling is being *****ed down on because of the effects it has on the ingame world when CCP allows people to mine with 5 accounts at the same time, and created a mining system that accomodates that style of play surprisingly well.
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Sola Sun
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Posted - 2007.03.02 06:21:00 -
[156]
1) The source of ISK inflation is ISK mass increase, not people buying ISK, since they do not create any.
2) Only way of creating ISK in game are CONCORD rewards and NPC agents payment. Players themselves can not print ISK.
3) So called 'low-income-countries inhabitants' are working as ISK farming slaves for 0.0 controlling alliances, creating ISK mass. Sharing single account with 4 players each working about 8 hours per day, all they need is 1 month old account able to pilot a Raven, do 'warp next belt' 'target 500+k bounty NPC' 'f1f2f3f4f5f6' 'warp next belt'. Being busted, they just change ship, got some income via insurance, and repeat. All they say - 'its my job'. Such a slave produces 200-300kk per working day (not collecting loot). A group of 10 creates about 100 billion in-game ISK per month, actually doing nothing (they do not even know what this game is about).
4) Inflation control is in YOUR hands, dear developers, not players buying ISK. If only you can limit ISK generation to sane amount, say, no more than 500kk per month of gameplay for all characters on account?
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Nylian
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.02 06:45:00 -
[157]
Quote: Whether you realize it or not, Real Money Trading has an impact on nearly everything you do in EVE and ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
HAHAHAHA. LOL. How can you honestly hope to post on the forums about why something is against the EULA (ISK selling in particular I'm targetting) when you have your OWN manner of doing it that is totally okay?!
I can't believe how hypocritical it is. GTC Selling wasn't even MENTIONED.
While the intent for buying GTC's may be that you maintain more 'subscriptions' by allowing people to continue playing by being able to buy GTC's with ISK, it doesn't change ANYTHING for the better in regards to inflation.
Completely empty and pathetic devblog imo, except for the apart about keeping your PW a secret.
I am disgusted.
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Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2007.03.02 08:29:00 -
[158]
Then why can people with mony to spare on Time Cards get lots of isk so easy and I'm still puttering away getting to watch them and not play with them because I can not get a good enough ship like a BC?
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Nero Ya'ng
Caldari YaFa Empires
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:43:00 -
[159]
hi
sure the GTC>ISK trade supportet by CCP is also unfair.
but its not an endless ISK making way. you are limited, the demand for GTC payed by ISK is noth that big like the demand on ISK for $.
i really like the idea CCP will really do something against the ISK farmers.
Only thing CCP should do is, limit the GTC u can sell per month, maybe 1 GTC per month, or 1 GTC every 3 months may be selled for ISK.
so there is still a little advantage for those that sell GTC for ISK, but its more controlled. and cant get out of controll like 1 person buys a few hundret billion isk, not possible with GTC.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2007.03.02 12:41:00 -
[160]
The biggest whopper of unfairness is the fact that the mining system is designed to allow you to run 5 accounts at the same time. That's the whole reason why barge cycles are extremly long and mining is extremly uneventful, so you can increse your income with every extra account you have. Let's face it, single account players in Eve have a hard time. People with 5 accounts will always have money to spare if they have a miner on all of them, plus they can scout thier own routes, create their own cynos, you name it...
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Centurin
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.02 16:13:00 -
[161]
Eve is probably the only MMO where alts are pretty much required. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
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Centurin
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.02 16:13:00 -
[162]
Eve is probably the only MMO where alts are pretty much required. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
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Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.03.02 20:11:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Centurin Eve is probably the only MMO where alts are pretty much required.
Nope, pretty much all graphical MMO* in history - at least with PvE as main resource (mining counts) - have made mules a requirement.
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.03.02 22:19:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Don Temujin
Originally by: Centurin Eve is probably the only MMO where alts are pretty much required.
Nope, pretty much all graphical MMO* in history - at least with PvE as main resource (mining counts) - have made mules a requirement.
To its credit, there is almost no point to '2 boxing' in WoW.
As much as I hate its raiding end game, they did get that right.
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.02 22:40:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/03/2007 00:03:12
For example:
I wonder if I was a day old player and bought a stack of GTC's, how much real money it would take me to buy enough GTC to buy a tech 2 blueprint capable of producing the ISK to then support the rest of my gameplay through buying GTC with ISK tech 2 profits for as long as EVE exists???
Cheers, Vyk.
At around $1 (USD) for 10m Isk I would say between $500 and several thousand on average. That Modulated Strip Miner II that went for 94bn isk would equal about $20,000. If I landed something like that in the T2 lottery I can see the temptation to sell it and ebay the ISK. I think this points out the problem with the T2 BPO system. BPO's shouldn't be worth so much that people in RL think that you're taking the game to seriously for NOT selling the item and trying to cash out.
Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU! |
Ikvar
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.03.03 00:20:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Nifel Was the BPO conglomerate responsible for some (all?) of the absolutely ridiculous prices we've seen the past few months for T2 modules that doesn't really cost that much to produce but were/are sold with a 800%+ markup?
Wasn't it NAGA? I seem to remember being told the reason why their wait times were so long was because they sold their items on eBay and gave the real money orders priority. I also got a link to the eBay store but I don't have it now.
Originally by: Rekindle I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything I own.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.03 01:59:00 -
[167]
Basically from what I read here, CCP has no problem with Macrominers selling heaps of ORE and buying GTC with illgotten ISK. They allow you to sell ore, regardless of how you get it as long as the ISK is turned into a GTC that converts illgotten ISK into RL cash for them, what they want to stop is competing systems such as EBAY from allowing the sale of ISK to gamers for RL cash.
well, that's fine, but the hole they leave open is that people are not selling the ISK, they are charging for the time that the people who are reselling the ISK took to earn it. not selling the ISK but the labor. and I don't think they can stop that labor charge.
The only way they can stop it is to make it uneconomical to earn a wage while building up wealth of ISK
there are two things that would stop that
end ISK conversion to GTC stops most of the macrominers who convert ilgotten ORE to ISK second, stop GTC's sold thru sites other than there own.
it is very simple. a two step process. have the site that sells the GTC get code #1 they tell CCP that (joe blow) bought code#1.
They you have to use (joe blow account) In game and eve-mail that code to CCP IG. then ccp can convert that code to a GTC to play. they have to take info from the primary seller of GTC and convert it to a GTC.
if they allow ISK to GTC transfers then they have to allow RL cash to Labor transfers. they ISK transfer that happens after is just a gift.
IMHO, it's a system that has many holes |
Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.03 02:12:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Notnearly OnEnough on 03/03/2007 02:08:59 i guess what I mean to say is CCP allows the sale of ISK for game related services
TS server rental, forum signatures, etc.
How is the collection of ISK not considered a service? I think if you open mindely reviewed the labor that someone spends creating ISK, then thats a great service. I think lots of people with little time would pay for that service. It's like cutting your lawn, it's a service. The ISK they transfer is just a gift.
If they want to stop ISK transfer for RL cash, then they need to plug all holes.
no more TS or vent for ISK no more SIGS for ISK
since they all are labor or RL cash intensive for ISK transfers.
if they truely want to stop ISK transfers they perhaps they need to either charge for it, themselves. or make it less profitable RL to do. stop macrominers also, that's the first step. i think there can't be a lot of people in EVE that own an exhumer. if you hop in an exhumer (what can there be 200 people? 300?) well, flag their ISP or there IP addy, whatever it takes. and see if they are on for heaps of time. if that exhumer is flying 23/7, then dude it's a macro!! simplenuff look at the system it's in, if there are 2,3,4 others and they all station pass the ore to one UBBER player with perfect refine, they check UBBER players IP too, guess what' i bet it's from the same country node also....
whatever, your the tech gurus that get ovr a million USD per month, pay someone to track those IP's , that will fix the base of the problem
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MasterDecoy
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.03 08:01:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Abominog Ok so after reading this mess I have a question,bear with me I could be mistaken in my knowledge and if so nevermind.
It has been said that GTC's are helpful because some countries dont have a credit or debit system in place to pay your subscription with.But I was to believe that the only way to get the game is download online,and to do that,you would have to set up and pay for the original purchase of the game online.
So if they can purchase and download the original game client/pay for it,why cant they pay there subscription in the same manner they bought their account with.
like I said,I could be mistaken since I dont know if a person can buy the game client with a GTC.
im in china, and credit cards were very rare, though a lot less nowadays. and im fairly sure that most people who play online game in here do pay with GTC's.
there's no problem downloading the game, and playing in a trial account, but when it comes time to pay for the subscription, that's where GTCs become useful.
and as far as i know, you don't need to pay to download and install the game.
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Gizzit
Gallente Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.03 11:26:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Gizzit on 03/03/2007 11:26:24 Presumably the only reason that most macrominers are playing the game is so that they can turn game time into real-life cash. If CCP put procedures in place to ensure that the only thing they can achieve by their efforts is more game-time, then the incentive is gone. If they cannot milk the game for cash, then what is the point in them continuing to macro-mine?
GTC sales are different inasmuch as the GTCs are bought for ISK by players who love the game, and lack the cash/credit card to play. Yes, there is in-game profit, but if someone with a little spare cash doesn't want to mine or rat for months to replace a Dreadnought, or to buy their first Carrier, then what really is the issue?
I'm open to persuasion on this...but the way I see it, if people can only use the proceeds of GTC sales to fund in-game ambitions, or to be a bit more effective to their corp or alliance, then its no real sin.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.03 11:43:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Gizzit Edited by: Gizzit on 03/03/2007 11:26:24 Presumably the only reason that most macrominers are playing the game is so that they can turn game time into real-life cash. If CCP put procedures in place to ensure that the only thing they can achieve by their efforts is more game-time, then the incentive is gone. If they cannot milk the game for cash, then what is the point in them continuing to macro-mine?
GTC sales are different inasmuch as the GTCs are bought for ISK by players who love the game, and lack the cash/credit card to play. Yes, there is in-game profit, but if someone with a little spare cash doesn't want to mine or rat for months to replace a Dreadnought, or to buy their first Carrier, then what really is the issue?
I'm open to persuasion on this...but the way I see it, if people can only use the proceeds of GTC sales to fund in-game ambitions, or to be a bit more effective to their corp or alliance, then its no real sin.
After reading all these posts, this is also the way I am starting to think.
As the poster above this stated. You can download the game for free. You can trial account for free. You can start off with a player who can mine right away. So basically you're out of the gate with out cost (except your time) so youget the ball roling, and get your first 150MIL. you trade that for a GTC (so far CCP is out nothing) You then proceed to mine for a month 23.7 and probably make way over what you'd make for a job OOG. you are in business. The thing these people are charging for on EBAY is the service of gathering ISK for you, it's a service the same as making a SIG or setting up a TS/vent server.
If someone wants to charge me for the service of making a SIG and telling it's up on ebay for $25 then i'd go pay for it on ebay. if someone wants to charge me 50mil ISK for it, i'd IG transfer it. it's the same thing! it doesn't matter which option you choose. the server, SIG or ISK. it's all a service fee (OOG or IG) it's the same
if CCP has troubles with this they need to stop it OOG and IG
How many people in these countries use GTC anywho? 2000 ? I have no idea. but I do imagine that of the macrominers the ratio is 100% macrominers use GTC codes so CCP can not figure out who they really are OOG, since they don't have any OOG info from billing.
If CCP stopped GTC codes they would clear up the issue that is created from ISK selling, since macrominers would now have to show who they really are. It would suddenly show as several people using the same IP , or even same banking account. From what I saw on TV, these macrominers are farms of real people with banks of gamers in a LAN playing thise as a job.
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Mintaka Orion
Caldari Ishukone Subsidiary
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Posted - 2007.03.03 11:51:00 -
[172]
First, lets examine the purpose and reason for playing the game. I joined and enjoy pvp. I like to shoot and kill (virtual of course). That to me is the fun part of the game. However, I feel like I have a second job. I spend 95% of my time mining and trading just to support frequent death in low-sec. Because of the inflation and expense of items I work for 20-30 hours a week to enjoy 1-2 hours of real fun. I have considered drop the game and moving on to another. Solution, issue more BPOs for all items, mostly T2, this will bring down the prices, add competition to the market, which is basically a monopoly for a few. Scaling back the economy will reduce illegal activity. Don't make the profit for the sale of isk go up. They will always find ways around this. The market for this trade is there because of the reason I listed above. Give us more play time do what we really like to do in game and that will make it easier on everyone, including GM (CCP).
Mintaka Orion |
AnimuX
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Posted - 2007.03.03 12:37:00 -
[173]
Originally by: GM Guard ôWhy does it concern CCP what I do with my money!?ö some would ask. ôWhy canÆt I buy ISK from someone else who has more time to spend on EVE than I do? What is the harm!ö others might ask. There is no single answer to these questions so I will give you a few.
Since I'm going to have to drop this account due to the EULA I might as well comment here.
I think there is one important issue that is neglected in this discussion. The fact that the creators of EVE also created the economic system used in the game with all of its flaws including the potential for RMT. Not once have I seen a claim from CCP to take responsibility for building these obviously exploitable scenarios into the core fabric of the game. Yet the post would have you believe there is some impossible force of corruption in the player community causing all of the trouble.
I think it's ridiculous for the owners of a business to call their customers cheats for using the product however flawed.
Originally by: GM Guard First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple.
Only as plain and simple as it is to purchase GTC's and exchange them for ISK and if gaining ISK in the game without personally earning it is considered cheating then every newb who joins a corp and receives some starting ISK or a new ship should be mentioned. Let's also not forget those who start one character and acquire another from an older player leaving the game thus circumventing the limitations of skill points.
I've seen every issue regarding RMT refuted (with the exception of account hacking which I think everyone agrees is a criminal endeavor) in this blog by other players who have experienced alot more in EVE than I have. Yet at every step the creators of the game blame the players for ruining the experience. The fact is that every problem with the economics of the game, ISK sales, macro mining, PVP or scams is the result of the game itself. We pay to play but we don't control what CCP does with the game. However, CCP has the power to limit what players can and can't do in the game with each patch and revision. So I don't understand why the players become the focus of the problem when the real problem is clearly in the code. CCP won't take responsibility for it because if they did unsatisfied players would have even more valid petitions including but not limited to requests for reimbursement, subscription time and real money.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.04 18:50:00 -
[174]
H O L Y S H * T
im sorry ccp but if that doesnt highlight what everyone here has been stating then what else will ? the other threads who have recently been saying that they want GTC's to get ingame isk ?
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Shukin
Gallente Chuskarl's Family Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.04 22:40:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Shukin on 04/03/2007 22:41:40
Quote: Selling online currency has become a huge industry in many low income countries because of the demand for effortless ISK
I dont see anything bad in letting that chinese guy eat more rice if you know what i mean hehe
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Richard Aiel
Caldari The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2007.03.05 04:57:00 -
[176]
So buying ISK with Real Money can cause you all sorts of potential Bad Things (confiscation of the ISK, warnings, bans, etc) but taking advantage of free Tech2 BPOs given to you by a DEV gets you.. Nothing?
*looks around the restaurant then look at his mate* "I wouldnt be greatly surprised if a little band came in and started playing *hums the Star Wars Cantina theme*" |
Freisha
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Posted - 2007.03.05 06:07:00 -
[177]
you want to shut down macro miners and other people who do "bad things" to make real life money from a video game etc etc..
all you have to do is take away the profit..
if ccp was to sell the isk itself.. and undercut the sellers.. they would loose their profit margin and no longer be interested in selling isk..
they would take their efforts to another game..
people will always buy in game money/assets.. weather its people who are short on time.. or just big on cash.. but as has been said before.. some kid who buys 2 billion of isk with his lifes savings.. is no further ahead then a guy in 0.0 who farms a complex..
one has too much time on his hands.. and one no longer has a life savings..
the best part is.. the kid buys a bunch of stuff with his purchased isk that his character isnt skilled enough to use.. and he looses it all in a battle.. and the economy benefits.. (kind of like the war industry in real life.. unlimited demand since your product is always being blown up)
just my humble opinion..
fly safe..
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.03.05 09:23:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Don Temujin
Originally by: Centurin Eve is probably the only MMO where alts are pretty much required.
Nope, pretty much all graphical MMO* in history - at least with PvE as main resource (mining counts) - have made mules a requirement.
To its credit, there is almost no point to '2 boxing' in WoW.
As much as I hate its raiding end game, they did get that right.
Guess you didnt hear about the guy that '5-boxed' WoW with 5 mages running AoE spam with 1 keyboard to run all 5 mages to hit 60 with 5 chars in recordtime... Multiple characters are useful in every game, most common in fantasy MMOs seems to be the healer on 'follow' behind a damagedealer for most of the sologrinding. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
Rekiva
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Posted - 2007.03.05 10:52:00 -
[179]
i think player should have the right to buy isk.. not from others players but from ccp, this is a good market just waiting for you guys to open.. if you guys put your heads together and made limits ie 200m a month or somthing that would be fair and rich people wouldnt be able to get there 1st bill in there 1st week
this wont make a difference i know that but this is my view on buying/selling isk for rtm
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Rekiva
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Posted - 2007.03.05 11:00:00 -
[180]
Posted - 2007.03.05 10:52:00 - [178] - Edit - Quote --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think player should have the right to buy isk.. not from others players but from ccp, this is a good market just waiting for you guys to open.. if you guys put your heads together and made limits ie 200m a month or somthing that would be fair and rich people wouldnt be able to get there 1st bill in there 1st week
this wont make a difference i know that but this is my view on buying/selling isk for rtm
-----------------------------------------------------------
i suppose that its good for eve that you cnt buy isk for rtm...otherwise eve would end up like 2ndlife AND WE DONT WANT THAT NOW DO WE??????
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ninjaholic
Burn the Jolly Roger
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Posted - 2007.03.05 14:10:00 -
[181]
I dunno about you moaners, but I'd prefer giving my money to CCP, than some chinese farmers. CCP can pull the money out of their ass, whereas the farmers & a/c thieves are ripping off asteroid and ice belts, and other players. Imagine how ****ed you'd be if you hit your usual spot for your wages and minerals so your alt can build another Dominix, only to find that your belt is gone to a bunch of 1337 ORE barges that are AFK, or logged in just to realise all your gear is gone, as is your ISK.
CCP are protecting us gamers from a crashing market, and trying to keep the game fair, and all you guys do is moan about it! Cut them some slack ffs. If it wasn't for their hard work, the game would be **** and like WoW!!
I say close down the ISK sellers CCP, and sell it yourselves 8) -----
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.03.05 16:33:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Richard Aiel So buying ISK with Real Money can cause you all sorts of potential Bad Things (confiscation of the ISK, warnings, bans, etc) but taking advantage of free Tech2 BPOs given to you by a DEV gets you.. Nothing?
WTF? How come this post wasn't deleted?
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.03.05 18:00:00 -
[183]
Real Money Trading has two faces. You either get RL money with the ISK or get ISK with RL money:
Buying ISK with RL money: 1) You have RL Money but need ISK 2) You go to the internet and you buy GTC 3) You sell GTC for ISK on the forums. 4) Voila, you now have no money, but lots of ISK.
Converting ISK into RL money: 1) You have ISK but you need RL money 2) You buy GTC with ISK (see above) 3) You setup a web site to re-sell the GTC for RL money 4) Voila, you now have RL money and no ISK
With the second, well you know... ISK farmers etc etc.
But the first one is also bad, IMO. A corp can use RL money to cope with in-game war loses and win a battle of attrition.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.05 21:44:00 -
[184]
And once more, CCP really need to look at options to accept/refuse ISK donations..
//Maya |
Richard Aiel
Caldari The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2007.03.06 05:52:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Richard Aiel So buying ISK with Real Money can cause you all sorts of potential Bad Things (confiscation of the ISK, warnings, bans, etc) but taking advantage of free Tech2 BPOs given to you by a DEV gets you.. Nothing?
WTF? How come this post wasn't deleted?
Maybe cause someone finally realized uit makes sense and is a good question bod alt? *looks around the restaurant then look at his mate* "I wouldnt be greatly surprised if a little band came in and started playing *hums the Star Wars Cantina theme*" |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.06 10:04:00 -
[186]
I thought about the ISK selling and GTC selling also. Though it sounds similar it is different in principle.
1) The money ends up at CCP and so they can buy better equipment, hire more people etc. This is helping EVE.
2) Now that CCP has the GTC/ISK trade integrated into EVE it is very secure and scamming is impossible and phising also.
3) The amount of GTC you can buy for ISK is limited. Assume you have 20 bil. isk to sell. You go to ebay or elsewhere and sell it illegaly, but there are no limitations. You try to buy that many GTC in a row and a) CCP will notice and maybe have a closer look where all the money comes from (farming, bugged complexes etc.), b) the price for GTC will go up and you get less and less $ for isk, making the whole business for heavy-sellers unattractive.
That is why GTC selling for ISK via Eve-O is okay, but selling ISK for $ anywhere else isn't.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.03.06 14:33:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/03/2007 14:33:23
Nice blog.
But one of the points is false and I'd like to comment on it. A price cartel doesn't cause inflation.
- Inflation is an excess of ISK in circulation, generating typical effects and problems. - Inflation can cause rising prices as one of these effects, but rising prices don't cause inflation. Yet they may indicate that there already is inflation which provides the opportunity to skim a lot of the surplus ISK. - It is not an equivalence, it is just an implication, that means it only works in one direction. Turning it around like 'if inflation causes high prices, then high prices cause inflation' is an error.
Do we have inflation? Why? Probably because of ebil empire mission runners. Probably because of 0.0 carebears ratting 1m+ bounty rats, clearing complexes and farming ISK with their empire alts in faction fitted CNRs. Probably because of ships destroyed and insurances paid in 0.0.
As somebody else said, the requirements are rising. People want to get rich, fast. New players are presented some ideals like ebil Hulk producers or rich people earning 3 billion per day or having 100 billion in their wallet. That's the state of the game. People feel overwhelmed. Yes, "First of all, money is power in EVE", so perhaps people buy ISK to not feel totally powerless.
CCP, to a certain degree it's your own fault. You let all those ISK flow into the EVE economy and let a few players suck it up, so you can't or don't want to take it out again. You indirectly create the idols and powerplayers. You provide the playing ground and a lack of game mechanics to balance it.
Please dig a bit deeper than just ISK sales.
Oh, and for the record I haven't and won't buy ISK with money or GTCs.
___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury _/_/ |
Vladikov Orrico
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Posted - 2007.03.06 16:00:00 -
[188]
Quote: In fact, GTC sales probably help the overall player experience, since there are many players who obviously can't afford the RL cash to continue to play.
So many time on this game of "very sympathetic players" it's been stated:
If you dont like it, can't afford it, can't stand it, don't like it, won't do it, etc etc etc then stfu and leave the game.
I'm gonna go with that viewpoint here. Seems to be the trend with all the hardcore players here.....but then again the hardcore crowd is mostly the ones that are benefitting from GTC sales as a laundering system for RL cash to ISK....so no surprise this thread so far has lacked alot of the "if you dont like it the GTFO" attitude...funny that..
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Miniturret
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Posted - 2007.03.07 10:56:00 -
[189]
ok i'm not sure if this has been addressed yet or not as I niether have the time nor the patience to read through all 7 pages.
If Real Money Trading is such a huge problem take on companys where it will hurt them the most.
Doing a quick google search and selecting 4 websites/companys selling isk. The current Real Money (RM) value of 100 million isk varies between 11 and 15 dollars US.
Now as I stated take them on where it will hurt them most. I am a super casual player, working 40+ hours at my job and then coming home and working even more with side businesses etc. I do not have the time to aquire the "power" that having ISK brings and since buying ISK is forbidden I don't want my acct banned. Working in the various jobs I already have I don't have the time to buy a time card and sell it for ISK. Bypass the middle men and offer us an option that for say 30 dollars US we can get our one month plus 100 million from one of the various NPC corps for whatever reason your writers can think of. But only make the option avaible once every 3 months so that it isn't abused. This way CCP is still making the money, we have a safe way to buy isk, and isk isn't totally flooding the market as it's only avaible once every 3 months, granted you could find a better deal from a third party but that's not safe and could get you banned. So the safty factor outweights the extra cost.
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Eilene Fernite
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:30:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Miniturret I don't have the time to buy a time card and sell it for ISK.
1. Buy GTC 2. Make forum post 3. ??? 4. ISK!!
If you don't have time to sell a GTC, why would you even need one? It takes longer to run a mission than it does to sell a GTC
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Miniturret
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:35:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Miniturret on 07/03/2007 11:36:08
Originally by: Eilene Fernite If you don't have time to sell a GTC, why would you even need one? It takes longer to run a mission than it does to sell a GTC
why you ask. novel thought, it's actually FUN to play the game and run missions, and go ratting etc. it's a stress reliever for me. Now if you would kindly go back and re-read my editted my post you'll see that i'm also trying to stop the GTC sales that are making people massive amounts of ISK.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.08 17:19:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger Real Money Trading has two faces. You either get RL money with the ISK or get ISK with RL money:
Buying ISK with RL money: 1) You have RL Money but need ISK 2) You go to the internet and you buy GTC 3) You sell GTC for ISK on the forums. 4) Voila, you now have no money, but lots of ISK.
Converting ISK into RL money: 1) You have ISK but you need RL money 2) You buy GTC with ISK (see above) 3) You setup a web site to re-sell the GTC for RL money 4) Voila, you now have RL money and no ISK
With the second, well you know... ISK farmers etc etc.
But the first one is also bad, IMO. A corp can use RL money to cope with in-game war loses and win a battle of attrition.
Does the above method affect the market like empty belts? CCP makes money this way, from ISK sellers not. Think about it.
Ship lovers click here |
Whiskey Girl
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Posted - 2007.03.11 08:41:00 -
[193]
It seams to me that ccp isn`t doing anything to stop this type of activity. witness the 50+ ice miners in Shihukne with names like aetx6288hk,bwxsgdj,gbgqz,hdqh003 and my favorite pyzn. all in mackinaws all mining then docking then back to the ice belt. and all in npc corps so nobody can war dec them. my next time in im going to scann and see if there using ice miners IIs.
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Garrin Siann
Farmer Killers
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Posted - 2007.03.15 17:46:00 -
[194]
you know, in an unrelated but yet distant cousion, if you want to create node stability... how about kicking all of the macro mission runners out of the game. man when i was in the motsu area last night, doing my part for the cause, the place was CRAWLING with them. and were talking some OBVIOUS ones. yes you all know the ones that are like serial numbers quk12, 13 and 14 ect. come on ccp if WE the player base can see and tell who they are i am sure you can. a few lines of code, and they could detect server side simple things like keyboard inactivity.
they hide in npc corps to avoid war decs. why just last night had one we engaged who jumped out, must have hit a station, and then quit the macro corp. i mean, cant have an interruption of isk making to turn into cash can they?
so ccp, how about it. are you going to start opening your eyes, or just continue on blissfully accepting their subscription money every month?
*shameless self plug*
help save the system! join us and make a macroer's life hell! ( or at least mildly annoying )
SAVE A NODE! SHOOT A MACROER! :-)
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Garrin Siann
Farmer Killers
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Posted - 2007.03.15 18:03:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Whiskey Girl my next time in im going to scann and see if there using ice miners IIs.
the ones i scanned elsewhere used 2x ice upgrade's and ice harvester 2's
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Ricar
Society for the Preservation of Professors
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Posted - 2007.03.15 19:02:00 -
[196]
First of all, my thanks to GMs for clarification.
Whole thread saddens me. People keep on saying about GTC->ISK is bad and so on. Well, actually, market for GTCs is very limited. 100 000 per month tops. Major part of subscribers are either old enough to earn their buck in RL or play occasionally enough to avoid loosing precious ISKies on GTCs. I'd estimate that 1000-10000 GTCs get sold for ISKies monthly (GMs of cause have reliable info here). This is not a serious market, this can't be compared to ebay trading. On ebay you could liquidate up to 10 bils easily (100 GTCs anyone?). If CCP keeps only GTC->ISK trading as legal it will lessen the issue severely.
On the other hand, many people just keep on saying the same, despite what the other side said. So my post is rather useless.
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:36:00 -
[197]
ok so you want to stop ISK selling, which seems to go closely to macro mining. and also to GTC sales, which mostly are bought with ISK earned thru macro mining ( IE: Macro miners don't need any cash, just ISK)
well, redo the system of mining relative to how anchoring works in the belts. make it so CANS do not anchor in a belt (it's already done in hidden complexes and mission sites, you jet a can id it lands outside the area)
well, you can no longer anchor a can. period. it forces team work to mine. sure, use your alt. make a system to pass ore thru IN SPACE transfer, not jet cans.. hmm where do those cans come from? younever have toput a stock of jet can parts into your ship, you just get them forever.. well, stop them!
rework the system a little and it will make things harder, but in the long run better.
(also, as I mentioned earlier, a system of money transfer tracking and ore transfer tracking)
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Juntos
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Posted - 2007.03.17 21:42:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Rekiva if you guys put your heads together and made limits ie 200m a month or somthing that would be fair and rich people wouldnt be able to get there 1st bill in there 1st week
And back in the real world, sry mate but you put limits on it and people will keep buying from elsewhere.
Originally by: Ricar People keep on saying about GTC->ISK is bad and so on. Well, actually, market for GTCs is very limited. 100 000 per month tops...I'd estimate that 1000-10000 GTCs get sold for ISKies monthly (GMs of cause have reliable info here). This is not a serious market, this can't be compared to ebay trading.
The size is unimportant, that fact that it is allowed means that RMT is condoned.
Either CCP needs to make the business of selling ISK unprofitable or they need to accept that it will continue to happen.
My earlier post says CCP should sell the ISK, but having thought more about this, if CCP sells ISK then all the people with disposable income will buy ISK, because it is legit to do it, driving the economy into a spiral of inflation as people flood the markets with ISK.
If you limit the amount of ISK CCP sells then people will continue to buy from other sources. So those don't work for me.
If you reduce the amount of ISK in the system as suggested by the lvl 4 mission nerfing, all you do is increase the value of ISK as there is less in the system so the exchange rate goes up.
The only solution that I can see is to reduce the value of ISK, and reduce the need for it. The only way I can see to achieve this is to increase competition (reducing prices) whilst allowing the amount of ISK in-play to go up and reducing the amount of ore needed to build things.
The only other solution is to scrap ISK completely. No really, there is no market for 1mil extra skill points (buying older chars excluded), so why not make ownership of things skill based. Change it so that if you can fly a ship you own it, or can take it out of the corp hanger. instead of fittings have adjustments (otherwise fittings would become like ISK). so as you get the skills you can fly more ships and adjust more things.
Hell I like that Idea, time to find that single idea blog thread again :)
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Swift Voyager
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Posted - 2007.04.06 03:32:00 -
[199]
This is my first post on this forum, so hello everyone.
CCP are absolutely correct to condemn selling any in-game commodities for real world money. I read a study from a Harvard undergraduate a few months ago that talked about all the social problems that arrise from this growing trend. Eve isn't the only game that's plagued by this problem.
Not only is this bad for people who want to have fun in the eve world, but it's also bad for many reasons in real life that you can research online for yourselves if you want.
Anyway, I think it's great that CCP is taking care of active players like us by paying attention and doing what they can to keep the universe fun.
In the end, it's up to us to keep an eye out for bad behavior of any sort and work as a community to help CCP keep eve fun!
Peace everyone!! ..and remember that you can try to monkey-proof the software but you can't monkey-proof the monkey.
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Erana Elios
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Posted - 2007.04.08 04:38:00 -
[200]
I'd just like to thank the staff for actually putting a serious attention into this problem. It's refreshing to see that you actually care to keep the playing field level for people who play honestly. I'd also like to thank you for preventing people from getting scammed with the game card for isk trades, I've never actually performed a trade, but the fact that you protect players when there is no direct benefit to you is admirable.
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Mahavy Seth
Amarr Vure
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Posted - 2007.04.09 17:39:00 -
[201]
In my opinion this is only a topic created by CCP to put some dust on the fact that CCP itself sell ISK for more income :)
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Bloody Bolt
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Posted - 2007.04.10 00:35:00 -
[202]
Hello everyone,
got tired reading all that discussion what is worse: GTC or pure ISK selling. Just want to add comment from perspective of inflation. Inflation is happening only when amount of money increases in market.
I do not see a way, how ISK selling for RL money increase amount of money in market, they simply change a pocket. To get ISK for selling macro miners mine allot. Except use of macros, they are earning ISK by using legal in-game methods, everyone can use. We can name it as bad thing, that possibility to sell ISK for RL$ encourage part of players to do macro mining. But I do not see crucial problem here as market should be capable to balance the things. As someone in the beginning of this thread said, more ore mined - more is sold in market; more ore sold - lower the price; lower the price - more people can afford to buy it; finally it ends up with lower prices of items. The only question is: does that ore hit a market, or bypasses it and is used for high level, affordable only for top level players items production. If bypassing a market is dominant behavior of macrosers, then it needs some fixing for benefit of new players - i.e. dangerous if ignored random encounters to make use of macros more painful; legalize macrosing to increase competition between macro miners (or maybe even implement some sort of accessible for everyone macro infrastructure in-game) and increase renew rate of plundered asteroid belts; reduce potential profit of those high level items to reduce attractiveness to produce them; make hunting of macro miners part of game (not just a headache for support). Hm.. ok lets return to topic..
GTC case is very different thing. Despite the fact that amount of potential GTC buyers for ISK is limited, it spawns ISK into market from nowhere, I mean amount of money in market increases. So we get one more potential reason for talks about inflation. Of course, creators of this game have a possibility to fine tune game balance to make market capable to accept those injections properly (i.e. reduce mission bonuses). But I do not know do they do that. Finally they can use the same tools to control macro mining attractiveness.
Hehe, I just remembered discussions during the first beta tests of eve - to be not to be for legal trading of in-game items and/or ISK for RL$.
ok, good night
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Raeyan
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Posted - 2007.04.10 08:36:00 -
[203]
Here's my 2 cents...
Every MMORPG has this problem. Bottom line is this: CCP(EVE), Sony Online Entertainment(EverQuest), Blizzard Entertainment(WoW), etc etc don't actually want these farmers/sellers to disappear. They simply want to keep them in check. Preventing them from getting too big or too out of control is the only goal. However, due to international laws and other legal complications, they can't appear to support this behavior. People would use the system to launder money, and for those who are unfamiliar with the term... That would be the process of sinking stolen(crime-related) money from drug sales etc into CCP's account for an EVE account, and then into the account of the companies selling ISK. Then "withdrawing" the ISK from EVE for RL currency making it appear to be a legitimate transaction.
Now for those sitting here disagreeing with my standing that these companies secretly want this selling to continue...
New player comes to the game and doesn't have a lot of playtime each week... They find that their skills are training faster than they can earn ISK to buy upgrades: If they can spend a little extra cash to a 3rd party site and get a boost on their bank account, guess what! They just might keep playing since this purchase of in-game currency has augmented their ability to play. Keeping them happy and bringing in their subscription fee's to CCP. The same is true for people with too much ISK in game (perhaps due to a lack of a job or social life in RL lol). Those players can augment their RL bank account by selling ISK to other players through one of these 3rd party sites (yes most of them will offer to buy in-game currency for about 20% of what they sell it for to others, but hey cash is cash right?). So when you really think about it, these sites ARE generating income for CCP because without that avenue... these players would have left the game.
And for those who still don't believe me... theres an average of what? 20,000 players on the server throughout the day... lets assume those were all the accounts active (most likely 3-4 times that, but for sake of argument...). And lets assume that all those accounts were paying say $13US/month... you can buy 50-100k ISK for the price of that subscription... if CCP was REALLY interested in getting rid of these companies/individuals, they would simply have to buy a small amount of ISK themselves and backtrack where it came from... they could literally ban EVERY account used by that company/individual for the cost of 1 month subscription.
Sorry to be the one to point it out, but every company that has an active MMORPG is simply keeping themselves in the clear legally and keeping these companies from overruning the game completely. They don't want elimination, they want balance... nothing more, nothing less.
/end rant
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Zenst
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.10 14:00:00 -
[204]
I totaly agree, its a bad thing and also partualy responsible for the esculated prices due too the unatural demand it casues in certain area's.
Anyhow - IF CCP realy wanted to kill this off, they could just prevent the purchase of GTC's for ISK. Which is a legal loophole for turning ISK into cash. What stops people buying a GTC for ISK and then selling that for real cash? Given that, dont you see a clear and very hard to close loophole in the system!
Now if CCP dont plan on closing that then you might as well have a ISK buying page and sell ISK yourself - cutting out the middle-men. though personaly I'd prefer to see both avenues closed.
On a side-note it does appear that buying 90daay GTC's from a non-europe based supplier and works out cheaper than paying monthly via CC by a fair old way. So the cheapest way is the way in which CCP makes less real money because of the commission chunking involved.
Also lets name and shame people, I mean role-play it and have concord notice of them doing illegal trading/market manipluation story. Either way name and shame them, help them to help themselves and not do it again and make the warnings a stigma people will want to avoid and not treat as a get out of jail, opps got caught I'll use another account payed via untracable/untiaable GTC's and use that account.
You also might wish to have a chat with Googleads which alot of people use for obvious reasons as they appear to have a fair few ISK for cash sites that pop-up and were talking totaly legit community sites which condone this type of trade and are being put in bad light and falsly encouraging well standing players who use these sites to be tempted. i mean google advertises it and offers you link on a well known player site. You see the moral issues there.
So if you realy want to solve this - prevent GTC for ISK or limit how many a player may purchase in a period perhaps or cut out the middlmen and offer it yourself. Again limit it. ANother option would be a super-subscriber aco**** which pays a little more each month but also gets say 100m isk or the like included.
Eitherway the only real way to kill the problem is to not offer them a legal loophole around it ;p.
All the best.
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.04.11 15:52:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Maya Rkell And once more, CCP really need to look at options to accept/refuse ISK donations..
Yep - Remove the ability to transfer ISK so simply. Maybe utilise specific locations where transfers of ISK can be made, and incorporate a limit on transfers over a certain amount, without give a reason.
This information simply builds a database that can be interogated. Its quite simple, and it requires effort on behalf of those making the transfer and those recieving it, as well as putting them in a situation where they can be identified and questioned at a later date.
The idea of this is that it makes policing transfers of cash much simpler (because you can build in auto reports to flag up characters making certain size transfers).
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KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 11:39:00 -
[206]
HAvent read the thread, but CCP condemns ISK buying/selling yet condones Time CArd Purchasing and Selling for isk.....
Summin isnt right there.
KIA EVE Home
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.12 13:09:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 12/04/2007 13:06:00 The real reason CCP forbids purchasing ISK out of game is they want you to buy Game Time Codes and use those to buy ISK so they can make money too. They just don't like losing out on the money being spent on ISK themselves. At least that is how this cynic sees it.
They allow ISK buying where they make money, but then say it is bad for the game. Lmao. I wouldn't be suprised if CCP (or individual employees on their own without company knowledge) owned some ISK selling companies themselves.
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Gromash
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Posted - 2007.04.20 21:32:00 -
[208]
"4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!" Wow prices go up because only a few people in the game have the ability to make and monopolize things. Sounds like a random tech 2 lottery bpo hand out to me. The main problem ccp has is that real money isnt going to them and that alot of people dont feel like playing EVE non-stop and become obsessed with the game. CCP condones GTC buying and selling with isk being exchanged for the work that real money should do, but in this case CCP sees that money not someone else . . .
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Nikolus Wrighte
Caldari Chaos Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.23 08:00:00 -
[209]
You rock man *begins dry humping keiron's left leg Moderators. sign my sig or the kitten gets it! |
EscapeArtist
Caldari Deviance Inc
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Posted - 2007.04.23 09:34:00 -
[210]
Edited by: EscapeArtist on 23/04/2007 09:30:51
Originally by: Miniturret
1. Buy GTC 2. Make forum post 3. ??? 4. ISK!!
1. Underpants 2. ??? 3. Profit
Right?
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alexreborn
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Posted - 2007.04.30 05:25:00 -
[211]
LOL I like the part in the blog where it says "we know that macroers have pretty much ruined mining in empire..."
All you got to do is go to Old Man Star and look for names that indicate macroers - usualy names with uncapitalzed letters, that make no sense at all.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.01 19:03:00 -
[212]
Originally by: CCP kieron Whether you realize it or not, Real Money Trading has an impact on nearly everything you do in EVE and ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
To give you more insight into the impact of ISK buying on EVE, the community, customer service and potentially your account, GM Guard has a new and rather lengthy Blog with that information and much more. Check out The Price of ISK.
The problem with all this is that you've set up conditions that make it impossible because of your GTC for Isk/Isk for GTC policy. So if I have bought game cards, traded the game cards for isk to a macrominer/isk farmer, and I have no way of knowing this person is legit, I'm the one at risk. We already had a girl in our corp quit for this reason. She traded a game card for isk, was clear that she had done it in corp chat (perfectly legal and quite a debate over the merits of the action) and about a month later the GMs took it away, she petitioned, got a response she didn't care for and quit.
We have other people that I'm pretty sure buy ISK via GTC, too. Because it's legal to do so.
And while appreciate you've taken steps in recent months to address some of these problems with the new secure GTC proceedures, but you're painting with a broad brush that anyone who gets Isk from a disreputable source has, in fact, made a disreputable action. When, in fact, they very well may not have.
So, I'm thinking if you're going to bust people, you need back-off the Isk for GTC policy. Because you're part of the problem with your loop-hole that's a mile wide to be exploited.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.01 19:13:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 12/04/2007 13:06:00 The real reason CCP forbids purchasing ISK out of game is they want you to buy Game Time Codes and use those to buy ISK so they can make money too. They just don't like losing out on the money being spent on ISK themselves. At least that is how this cynic sees it.
They allow ISK buying where they make money, but then say it is bad for the game. Lmao. I wouldn't be suprised if CCP (or individual employees on their own without company knowledge) owned some ISK selling companies themselves.
Word to the bottom line. They opened pandora's box and now they're trying to ***** down. Until they stop the Isk for GTC policy, they're inviting trouble by sweeping up people who are legitimately exploiting via the rules, but end up paired with someone who's cheating.
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2fastforyou
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.03 15:18:00 -
[214]
Real life money for in game money in any game boils down to leet items. If you have something that gives an edge over other people and its rare its going to cost a lot and creates a need/desire for people to get the money for them. And there going to do what ever it takes to get them.
Example
A player who has limited time to play logs in to try and get the item he wants from a complex, but he cant because every time he makes the attempt thereÆs a farmer there already. He sets his alarm clock for 2 am to try and get the item and guess what farmer is still there. The only chance he has to get this item is to buy it. But its so high priced he cant afford it. He can mine all weekend miss three days of work and mine/rat/mission etc to get the money for it. For what ever reason he gets blown up. They have to start over. Sooner or later this person is going to look for an alternative to save them time. If there smart go with selling a GTC if there not there going to buy it or steal it so they can feel competitive.
ItÆs a self perpetuating cycle, rare items and greed fuel isk selling/buying. If all things were equal and everyone had equal access to everything and it was based on a playerÆs skill over there equipment and ability to replace it money wouldnÆt be a big deal.
But people do not want play games where all things are equal they want to play a game where they can get an edge over others. So youÆre stuck with it. Right or Wrong, As long as thereÆs a need for something someone is going to find a way to get it and/or a way to sell it.
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.04 11:11:00 -
[215]
Though late, I have to voice my opinion that GTCs are the main reason that i will hesitate to log on nowadays. Give me lag, give me doomsdays, i'll accept it and ask for more.
Please please PLEASE review GTC sales. I've put 3 years work into this game, and I find that I can't compete to somebody who has only just joined but is rich in real life.
The scenario:
n00b realises he can buy isk with GTC
n00b buys isk, plays about a bit with lots of money.
n00b realises he can buy characters with isk. n00b buys character that has been playing since beta with full capital ship etc skills. n00b buys multiple capital ships or even a supercap like a mothership.
n00b is now playing at the endgame after very little time spent in the game, with NONE of the grinding, npcing, industry etc. The n00b now owns capitals meant for large scale alliance warfare, which most alliances cannot even approach in their wildest dreams yet.
Is this fair? Is this how you intended it? Obviously not, as shown by the blog. Power should be earned, not bought. Please, for the future of this game, fix what is broken.
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Xarec
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Posted - 2007.05.04 11:24:00 -
[216]
I agree, fix it. But at the same time, fix the game too. I know for a fact numerous people who buy isk soley because the insurance system is this game is so out of whack.
Supply and Demand set the t2 ships prices high. Buy a t2 ship for 200mil but get platinum insurance for a payout of 50mil, rather than 10% less of average market value for said ship. At least w/ a Domi, I know that i will always get back at least 50 of the 55mil I spent on the ship. (Oh, but not for aftermarket upgrades, which normal insurance typically insures as well.)
I'd honestly love it if the devs would pull their heads out and fix the insurance, so that I don't feel like I'm being scammed. I am aware that this probably part of CCCP's plan to make money tho since it forces the players to have to spend more time ingame to make up what they lost.
Besides, the developers wanted an open economy; they got one. Buying ISK is almost the same as counterfeit money. They can stop the individual hoses, but never the flood - the Secret Service proves that.
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Stakhanov
Shih Yang Tong
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:31:00 -
[217]
"Please remember that selling/buying ISK for real money is a EULA violation"
Nice , if a bit hypocritical. Alts , multiple accounts , character sales , GTC sales , logoff are all allowed forms of metagaming. Try changing the rules to get some credibility...
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Ginafae Xarann
Caldari Deadly Alliance Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.10 18:03:00 -
[218]
GTC vs RL ISK trading.
Why, (IMHO) GTC trading is allowed. CCP in it's infinite wisdom, would like your money. They also like having many players. Some people find it difficult to pay to play. So they have introduced a system, where you, another player, can pay for someone else to play. The benefit you get, is some ISKies in your pocket, and you help/allow another player to play for another 30+ days.
Yes, the downside is that people who want ISKies will sell multiple GTC's for real cash. But the benefit to the populace of EVE is more players for another month, and more accounts paid for.
Yes, people buy GTC's to sell for ISK. But those paying the ISK for GTC's are not reselling them.. They're buying a GTC to continue to play the game. If you stop GTC sales, you will cause a down turn in the number of players and operational accounts per month.. Something I doubt is going to happen any time soon.
CCP is not going to allow people to buy GTC's for ISK direct from them. Then you truly would be playing for free, and as we all know, MMORPG games are not free.
Gin 'No Matter where you go, There you are...' --- Buckaroo Banzai
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Dungheap
Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.05.15 07:02:00 -
[219]
two days ago i petition someone for sending me mail offering to sell isk for cash. that player still is in game. why? did i waste my time sending petition?
what is the point letting isk selling bots play out the full trial account?
is eve-mail untraceable or ccp say they care, but really just want the impression that they do? like ebay sales could have been stopped by one word from ccp asking ebay to stop selling their (ccp's) online property. that never happened.
verify and insta ban isk sellers. or drop the pretense of caring at all.
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BUFFY TVS
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Posted - 2007.05.22 10:56:00 -
[220]
here goes my one pennies worth...
referance macro miners .. i would be willing to join a ccp police force to track down and kill ALL macro miners if ccp would start such a force . im sure there would be a few people that would join also.
as for GTC . i have never purchased one in game . and they are NOT on sale in the UK . why?.
oh . and i wouldnt use buffy to kill macro`s with . i`d use my 3 year old char to do it.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.22 13:54:00 -
[221]
It seems to me that if players can pick out a Farmer in local, CCP could as well...
It also seems to me if CCP was all fire against ISK sales (outside of their own GTC sales) then they would take some more overt steps to stop it...
Personally, I think if ISK sales is such a good market, CCP needs to get into it...get rid of GCT's and buy and sell ISK direct... they could put the farmers out of business by making ISK legally available for less then the Farmers can sell it.
Simply put, I have ISK I want to sell, I go to the "Universal Exchange Services" and sell my ISK for time (just like GTC's)... I need ISK, I go to the UES and put in a request... the UES charges the Credit Card registered with my account and credits my Eve Account... no Credit card to charge, no ISK sale... Sorry...
Noob in training...
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Yuandin
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Posted - 2007.05.24 12:57:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Garrin Siann you know, in an unrelated but yet distant cousion, if you want to create node stability... how about kicking all of the macro mission runners out of the game. man when i was in the motsu area last night, doing my part for the cause, the place was CRAWLING with them. and were talking some OBVIOUS ones. yes you all know the ones that are like serial numbers quk12, 13 and 14 ect. come on ccp if WE the player base can see and tell who they are i am sure you can. a few lines of code, and they could detect server side simple things like keyboard inactivity.
they hide in npc corps to avoid war decs. why just last night had one we engaged who jumped out, must have hit a station, and then quit the macro corp. i mean, cant have an interruption of isk making to turn into cash can they?
so ccp, how about it. are you going to start opening your eyes, or just continue on blissfully accepting their subscription money every month?
*shameless self plug*
help save the system! join us and make a macroer's life hell! ( or at least mildly annoying )
SAVE A NODE! SHOOT A MACROER! :-)
Umm, HOW do you macro lvl 4 missions eh?
1) Afk during a mission equals a lost ship in no time flat... 2) Missions are way too different from each other to macro
Now, lets say some nut actually spent the time to make suitable macros for every possible level 4 mission, and macro mission runners actually exist in Motsu:
Level 4 missions are absolutely crap money! What sorry farming that would be... I couldn't imagine anyone doing that, instead of just getting a job pumping gas
Also, one of the things making eve (the artificial chore generator) playable is that you can often read a book on the side while you're doing some of the more boring grindy bits of eve to keep your hangar stocked with decent pvp ships you can blow up for fun. |
DEATHB1RD
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Posted - 2007.05.24 13:13:00 -
[223]
Originally by: ParMizaN Though late, I have to voice my opinion that GTCs are the main reason that i will hesitate to log on nowadays. Give me lag, give me doomsdays, i'll accept it and ask for more.
Please please PLEASE review GTC sales. I've put 3 years work into this game, and I find that I can't compete to somebody who has only just joined but is rich in real life.
The scenario:
n00b realises he can buy isk with GTC
n00b buys isk, plays about a bit with lots of money.
n00b realises he can buy characters with isk. n00b buys character that has been playing since beta with full capital ship etc skills. n00b buys multiple capital ships or even a supercap like a mothership.
n00b is now playing at the endgame after very little time spent in the game, with NONE of the grinding, npcing, industry etc. The n00b now owns capitals meant for large scale alliance warfare, which most alliances cannot even approach in their wildest dreams yet.
Is this fair? Is this how you intended it? Obviously not, as shown by the blog. Power should be earned, not bought. Please, for the future of this game, fix what is broken.
I think you're over-estimating the net impact for individual players from selling the occasional GTC:
1) most players don't have that much extra cash to buy loads of GTC's, so they just get enough for some skills and a few battleships that usually get blown up soon enough.
2) If you wanted to buy a Titan with real money, its upwards of $10.000 US (somewhere on this forum, somebody calculated the exact amount). If someone is ludicrous enough to spend the price of a small car on a titan, I say, by all means, let him have it, it gets us more flash memory on CCP's servers...
3) I think there is a fairly sizable positive impact for CCP in people selling GTC's for isk. I think the GTC volume sold for isk to players short on cash is enough extra revenue to CCP to be worth holding on to.
4) In regards to "fair", there's much bigger problems in eve than isk's gained from GTC's, like the permanence of ownership of space, complexes etc, and towering HUGELY over any other inequity, the T2 BPO Lottery, which can at random bestow the ability to "print" enough isk to build the foundation for a large alliance on, if you get a BPO for a nighthawk, for example, you're set for the rest of your eve time to enjoy pvp without the isk slavery everyone else has to deal with.
The only thing that spoils the GTC equation are people buying GTC's with isk in bulk and then selling them for cash over the internet. But I think that part of the GTC trade can be prevented.
If anyone is going to buy isk for cash, CCP should be the beneficiary, not some farmer or trader who figured out a loophole. |
DEATHB1RD
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Posted - 2007.05.24 13:27:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Hamfast It seems to me that if players can pick out a Farmer in local, CCP could as well...
It also seems to me if CCP was all fire against ISK sales (outside of their own GTC sales) then they would take some more overt steps to stop it...
Personally, I think if ISK sales is such a good market, CCP needs to get into it...get rid of GCT's and buy and sell ISK direct... they could put the farmers out of business by making ISK legally available for less then the Farmers can sell it.
Simply put, I have ISK I want to sell, I go to the "Universal Exchange Services" and sell my ISK for time (just like GTC's)... I need ISK, I go to the UES and put in a request... the UES charges the Credit Card registered with my account and credits my Eve Account... no Credit card to charge, no ISK sale... Sorry...
Sanctioning players to sell GTC's for isk has advantages:
A Game Publisher selling game currency to players is going to suffer a lot of ill will. CCP avoids this, because they remain on the ethical high ground of only selling play time.
This difference is more than cosmetic, because even though players can use the game time cards to game currency, another player gets the code and gets the time credit.
As a player, I find this very fair, in comparison to what Sony does (who also has the bad rep for it, I know of no one with even a shred of goodwill toward Sony)
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Hya Bam
Minmatar 101st LST
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Posted - 2007.05.25 08:45:00 -
[225]
I don't think I am qualified to tell people what is "right" and what is "wrong." These terms are always wide open to interpretation. The fact is, EVE is the property of CCP; your character, your equipment, and your ISK isn't actually yours at all. Final question: what is it called when you sell something that isn't yours to sell? Answer: it's called stealing, plain and simple. Don't even try justifying it. GTCs are LEGAL because CCP is the recipient of any money being spent on its property. Whether it is ethical or not, I will leave for someone else to answer.
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Fehz
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Posted - 2007.05.25 13:58:00 -
[226]
I'm a noob. There, I said it.. now someone pod me, please. I'm sure I'm the only noob in the last year who has stayed for at least 3 months. I love what this game could be to me, but I have to wait another 9 months.. Then all of these players who have been there since the beginning are still going to be jacking up prices and leaving me far behind. I've found one small solution to inflation. I take all the crap I get from missions (since that's the only thing I can do in my horrible existence) and sell qty 1 of everything in Jita at lower prices as often as I can. Other than that, I'm just going to fly around and get laughed at everytime someone kills me because I'm a noob. I hear people complain about how much SP someone gets when they first start nowadays. Since this game has been going on for so long, new people need a slight edge to be able to play with everyone else within a reasonable amount of time. I realize that people need to learn how to play this game, but it doesn't take 2 years to learn. Give them 8 mil sp in the beginning (except for alts on that account, and people who buy multiple accounts), and 500 mil isk, and your problem of people buying isk is gone (i also like the idea of putting kill rights on macro miners)... Well, noobs will start paying too much money for stuff and may drive inflation up, but that's their own dumb fault. New player experience should be priority number 1 at ccp. They also need to make concord track down people with low sec ratings in places they shouldn't be. How can I be in a 0.8 system and someone with a -9.7 comes and pops my ship? Concord sucks at their job. CCP, you need to make it easier for new players to get in and be able to enjoy the PVP a little bit. That's all I've joined this game for, but all I've killed was one little ship with a lucky stray missile while a bunch of my buddies were beating down on him. The economy of this game seems to reflect that of the real world. People with money always win, and people without always lose. People without can never be with unless they devote their life to it. I for one have much better things to do than stare at the mineral count in my ship.. I should just realize the inevitable that I will never be able to compete with the majority of the people who play this game and should quit now, as I'm sure 99% of new players realize.
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Imager
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.26 01:08:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Imager on 26/05/2007 01:07:35
Originally by: Fehz I'm a noob. There, I said it.. now someone pod me, please. ....
Don't worry, even after a year you can't really compete with players that have been playing for 4. You have 2 real choices. Either break the rules to make it fair or play a better game.
Fortunately for you as it stands you'll never be bothered with the pesky endgame and even in the best of cases you're 2 years away from being able to pilot a dread effectively which might make you valuable enough to a real alliance to tolerate your newbieness.
Also don't expect you and a "blob" of your friends to make any real difference, they've been rooting out the "I can't compete because I'm new, but me and 10 of my friends stand a chance" angle of the game as quickly as possible.
Have fun being at the bottom of the totem pole, in a few years there might be folks even lower than you that you'll have the privilege of picking on.
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panman
Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.05.26 01:49:00 -
[228]
How are people in low income countries meant to feed themselves now?
haha j/k
Nice blog, was a needed addition, but not everyone reads the forums. How about you spam their inbox with a link! So that everyone knows. Cause only 10% of players actually read forums ----------------------- Resistance is not worth it |
Angmar Da'Kirith
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:18:00 -
[229]
Just my 2 cents: I am a new Eve player and I really love this game among others, but there is only one thing I really don't like and it is multiaccounting. To me it is like cheating or isk buying just becouse a man who plays with two different accounts toghter to make more money mining/hauling or making mission lvl4 easier etc. is just like buy isk becouse you use real money to have and edge over single account player. Obviously this way CCP is happy and I know is hard to check these situations, but to me is like the feared "buy isk with money". Lots use to play this way so no one take care, but they should.
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Angmar Da'Kirith
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:18:00 -
[230]
Just my 2 cents: I am a new Eve player and I really love this game among others, but there is only one thing I really don't like and it is multiaccounting. To me it is like cheating or isk buying just becouse a man who plays with two different accounts toghter to make more money mining/hauling or making mission lvl4 easier etc. is just like buy isk becouse you use real money to have and edge over single account player. Obviously this way CCP is happy and I know is hard to check these situations, but to me is like the feared "buy isk with money". Lots use to play this way so no one take care, but they should.
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Taziana
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Posted - 2007.05.26 16:34:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Angmar Da'Kirith Just my 2 cents: I am a new Eve player and I really love this game among others, but there is only one thing I really don't like and it is multiaccounting. To me it is like cheating or isk buying just becouse a man who plays with two different accounts toghter to make more money mining/hauling or making mission lvl4 easier etc. is just like buy isk becouse you use real money to have and edge over single account player. Obviously this way CCP is happy and I know is hard to check these situations, but to me is like the feared "buy isk with money". Lots use to play this way so no one take care, but they should.
Good post and good point. |
Taziana
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Posted - 2007.05.26 16:38:00 -
[232]
I personally believe that CCP isn't 100% aggressive enough to nail ISK sellers/buyers. I would also like to point out, as another poster stated further up the thread, that there is NO WAY that a new player or even a 2 year old player can compete against a beta. Uber-players with uber-levels for ISK are going to dominate the game no matter what.
I think the game mechanics have to change. How...its open to interpretation. |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:06:00 -
[233]
Quote: Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance.
Then stop people having more than one account. I can't afford to run two accounts, and I certainly can't afford to purchase a new character for my alt slots - and it wouldn't help me anyway, as I'd have to log off to activate the character. RMT is a problem, but not so much as alts - but then you don't have such a high priority there, as the cash from alt accounts goes into CCP's bank account!
To put it bluntly, the rich already DO have an advantage in eve, so this point is moot. Otherwise, good dev blog.
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Angmar Da'Kirith
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:46:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Taziana
I think the game mechanics have to change. How...its open to interpretation.
I think the game should be based more on skills than things so give more bonus to skill and reduce the power of things buyable with isk. In this way an old player have a great advantage due to his experiences over years of training (like in real world if you want) more than a 2-3 months player that can buy for few isk a battleship and doing level 4 missions just becouse the skills are easy to learn and lots of fitting modules are just a matter of ISK (that you can buy/transfer/multiaccounting in so less time!). I don't like the idea to have a young player head to head with a veteran, but today it seems possible with enough isk.
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Wrath Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.09 19:09:00 -
[235]
I really don't get why CCP doesn't just sell ISK themselves.They make extra money and the market for shady ISK sellers dries up.If they checked the market and noted the average price ISK was selling for then add a little to it,who wouldn't prefer to buy from the company itself?
People will always be buying it,so why shouldn't CCP profit instead of ISK farmers?It's like the effects of Prohibition.Those who are willing to break the rules/laws make massive profits and it actually increases what was meant to stop or reduce.Is CCP selling ISK really all that different than allowing multiple accounts?Or selling GTC?
Give up and cash in on it CCP.It's going to keep happening no matter what you do,human nature being what it is.There will always be cheaters in any system,some big some small.Why not price the small ones out of existence?That's real world marketing.Like price wars between major chains vying to be top dog in a given location.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2007.06.09 22:13:00 -
[236]
Edited by: voogru on 09/06/2007 22:12:49
Originally by: Wrath Legion I really don't get why CCP doesn't just sell ISK themselves.They make extra money and the market for shady ISK sellers dries up.If they checked the market and noted the average price ISK was selling for then add a little to it,who wouldn't prefer to buy from the company itself?
People will always be buying it,so why shouldn't CCP profit instead of ISK farmers?It's like the effects of Prohibition.Those who are willing to break the rules/laws make massive profits and it actually increases what was meant to stop or reduce.Is CCP selling ISK really all that different than allowing multiple accounts?Or selling GTC?
Give up and cash in on it CCP.It's going to keep happening no matter what you do,human nature being what it is.There will always be cheaters in any system,some big some small.Why not price the small ones out of existence?That's real world marketing.Like price wars between major chains vying to be top dog in a given location.
ISK sellers will just keep undercutting CCP's ISK. They would need to pull a Sony move.
Ban ISK sellers, sell ISK themselves.
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Astraal Forever
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:54:00 -
[237]
Originally by: voogru Edited by: voogru on 09/06/2007 22:12:49
Originally by: Wrath Legion I really don't get why CCP doesn't just sell ISK themselves.They make extra money and the market for shady ISK sellers dries up.If they checked the market and noted the average price ISK was selling for then add a little to it,who wouldn't prefer to buy from the company itself?
People will always be buying it,so why shouldn't CCP profit instead of ISK farmers?It's like the effects of Prohibition.Those who are willing to break the rules/laws make massive profits and it actually increases what was meant to stop or reduce.Is CCP selling ISK really all that different than allowing multiple accounts?Or selling GTC?
Give up and cash in on it CCP.It's going to keep happening no matter what you do,human nature being what it is.There will always be cheaters in any system,some big some small.Why not price the small ones out of existence?That's real world marketing.Like price wars between major chains vying to be top dog in a given location.
ISK sellers will just keep undercutting CCP's ISK. They would need to pull a Sony move.
Ban ISK sellers, sell ISK themselves.
Yeah, if CCP beats the competition it will be a bonus for a better server & game maintenance. But as always, cheaters will catch up Anyway, there are some posibilities to reduce this type of cheating. The only thing I could think was to implement a warning in the tutorial for new players as they don't know yet how the game works exactly (or almost exactly), so all meassages new players receive will be reported to a GM e-mail or something (they should tell the exact cheater's name or even forward the entire message received). 3 months ago or like that a Hulk in Oursulaert costed half billion, now it costs 170 mil and lowering. This could be a cheater's hand? And yes, I was a fool 3 months ago, too. I received the 'ISK selling' message from a cheater. I instantly frightened up by the context and deleted it. 1 minute after i thought why didn't i tell you (sorry )? I was in Oursulaert. The cheater may still be around. By the way, i forgot what ISK means! Good luck!
P.S.: Try this for some ship design ideas (from Freespace 2)
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Mtber
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:15:00 -
[238]
the 1st thing to realise is that ccp AREN'T profiting from gtc sales
If they have 30000 subscribers they get 30000 monthly payments
all that gtc sales means is that some players are paying other players subscriptions for them and some players are playing for free.
since it will tend to be the 'older' players that are playing for free and the 'newer' players that are subsidizing them then it seems that the 'newer' players deserve the benefits their bought isk gives them.
The morality or desirability of one set of players subsidizing another set of players should be the subject under discussion not ccps alleged 'profiteering' from gtc sales(which it clearly isn't)
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Dreeper
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Posted - 2007.06.19 22:51:00 -
[239]
Haha.... GTC ftw
Every piece of legal note or EULA or servicedescription I read from this company so far, involves hypocritical explanations.
Just read the hyprocritical explanation why they charge 20Ç for PORTRAIT SWAPS (a simple change in the DB entry), or char transfers.... those excuses are easily countered by any engineer with technical proposals... and there are easily some technical limits set up instead of milking the customer cow...
come on CCP.... your customers arent stupid... ____________________ Dont feed the trolls |
Listain Surealious
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Posted - 2007.06.20 01:16:00 -
[240]
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Listain Surealious
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Posted - 2007.06.20 23:30:00 -
[241]
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FHPhantom
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:16:00 -
[242]
I think dual accounts is a far more unfair practice then anything else in this game. I didnt even know Buying isk wasnt allowed until this very momment and was shocked to learn that. I bought time cards for m8's on at least 5 times so they could play due to lack of funds on their behalf, Is that allowed?
Dual accounts I dont like one bit thats what players should be griping bout, not ISK which is needed to make the game playable.
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.21 12:05:00 -
[243]
I have three paying accounts. Paying accounts aren't the problem, it is trial accounts that kill the game. Don't believe me? check out this thread Linkage
As long as they allow unlimited trial accounts to be created like this, you are going to have issues with a false economy. The blog speaks of inflation, that is only true of cornered markets on specific items. For example, if the farmers quit placing Trit on the market for example, the price will go up. that is inflation. What we have day to day is deflation.
I have seen a small region band together and drive the farmers out. What happens? Mineral prices and therefore manufactured good prices begin to go back up, reflecting a truer value.
CCP can fix this simple enough in a few steps...
1. Filter and sort out accounts that are logged 23/7 and look at activity. If they belong to a NCP and mine 23 hours a day, 7 days a week and have a gibberish name, you have a macro miner. Plain and simple.
2. look for massive amounts of isk transfers on a daily basis. If you see isk transfers in the billions to other characters that they have not had previous contact with, you have an isk transferrer.
3. look for trial players that send numerous Eve mails soliciting isk for sale that are all the exact same text (can't be difficult, as Hotmail, Yahoo and others routinely filter this scum out) and ban them. In fact, ban the IP domain. Here you have located a solicitor on yet again, a TRIAL ACCOUNT.
(please quit responding to petitions that are filed regarding this asking the petitioner to stop petitioning as someone else may have already reported this. All petitions regarding isk solicitors should be investigated. Do the police ask the public not to report suspicious behavior simply because it MAY have already been reported?)
4. Don't ask your community to police your game. You have created the rules and environment that allow this to go on and in effect destroy the very game you love and develop.
While we are happy to help, I for one am tired of petitions pointing out violators being closed with no response, or a pasted response saying you will look into it.
5. Don't allow trial accounts to post in trade channels. This has been suggested numerous times and seems to fall on deaf ears. In fact, do not allow trial accounts to Eve mail players that do not have the trial account character in their address book.
If you took any 3 of these suggestions seriously, you would seriously reduce the problem.
term
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Dreeper
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:01:00 -
[244]
/signed Listen to the last 4 posts CPP. They speak the truth.
____________________ Dont feed the trolls |
Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:52:00 -
[245]
Ahh, neo-prohibition. People are going to buy ISK. I fully believe that it is better to minimise it in gameplay and via strategies which make it non-worthwhile. Now, ETC's slashed ISK's ebay price by a factor of FIFTEEN. Worthwhile. And the PvP nature of Eve means that bought ISK without knowledge provide minimal or even a negative "advantage".
This has kept the *real* enemy, Yantis and his like, at bay.
1. There isn't a strong causal link there. 2. And there are ways to fix that, such as limiting the amount of evemails that can be sent (like ISP's, ask one about the multiple rolling limits on email volume that the normal users never see, just the spammers.), and taking a large bond (several billion) ISK from corpations which want unlimited evemails (which they forfit along with any other penalties if they are convincted of spamming). 3. Ahh, the password issue again. You did look at how inactive accounts were robbed, right? Sigh.
PS, the use of the word "stolen" suggests that the player who origionally had the ISK owned it
4. Oh that? Complained about that, oh, shortly after it was formed 5. Blaming a month+ response time on this is... well, other MMO's with smaller CS staffs and far, far larger RMT issues don't have that response time.
//Maya |
Nomad2k
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Posted - 2007.06.22 16:33:00 -
[246]
So if I use my RL assets and buy 1000 GTC's, and I then sell them legitamately for several billion isk, with which I can then buy some high level Chars with, I wont get my account banned?
I somehow dont think this sits right, surely there should be some kind of restriction on the amount of GTC's a Char can sell per month, perhaps make it a max of 10 a month?
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.22 16:44:00 -
[247]
Forgive me for being stupid, but how does the fact that isk prices have been slashed act as a deterrent or help solve the farming problem?
I am not even going to attempt to rebut your rebuttal on my 5 points, as I am not sure what it is you are trying validate. Isk buying only encourages isk farming, plain and simple.
I made 5 valid suggestions that would make it much more difficult for farmers to advertise their wares and create endless zombie accounts.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Lador
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Posted - 2007.06.22 17:54:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Lador on 22/06/2007 18:00:26 Edited by: Lador on 22/06/2007 17:58:37 Hello, I for one have considered buying ISK and I have bought plats in other games like EQ, However in other games, I never felt the need like WoW. here is my rationalization why EVE just makes me WANT to buy ISK.
In eve there are basicly 2 ways to get money outside of PVP, ratting or mining/industry. Of those two, I prefer ratting....however, CCP has done little to make mission running very interesting.
1. No matter what agent or corp you go to, the missions are the same. 2. The difference between agent levels means only they are harder but basicly they are the same mission. 3. You cant use MWD's in deadspace (but you can warp to a stargate) I guess those anomolies are selective their interferance. 4. You cant use your shield drones on yourself. 5. If I have to warp out of a mission I have to go through all the acceleration gates again, UGH 6. Where is the strategy in missions, you cant sneak up on them using stealth cause 9 times outa 10 even if you select warp distance it drop you at 20km so basicly its all just tank em.
This to me does just one thing..makes missions boring, repetitive and dull, Why the heck would I want to rescue the "Damsel in Distress" or run another "Gurista Extravaganza" for the 1,000 time just to make some money, so I can buy that module. JUST to go the next level agent and do the same missions all over again...OR...I could just buy 1,000,000,000 ISK and sit in the station and train. I can make about 25-30m in a day of running level 4 missions. How many days is that to 1B isk? How many "Gurista Extravaganza's" you feel like running?? a "technology secret" or two perhaps?? 10 days of repetitive missions= 250m, had enough yet? how about another 10 days now your only at 500m....20 days to get half way to 1b that means if you add in loot its around 30 days....no thanks I would rather do something else, like go mow the yard. Or maybe go to the Dentist.
I have been around since 2006 and their mission database has changed VERY little, they just now added level 5's so does this mean there will be a level 5 "Damsel in Destress"?
Does this sound lame? Yes it does to me to. But until CCP actually makes missions fun, interesting, exciting and new, where is the creativity in mission building? This is what your going to get from people who want to have fun and not come home from work, just to log in and work some more.
There used to be open complexes in empire I did them to, I have heard that in the last patch, they were removed, I have not verifed this, but once again this further limits the already boring nature of EVE's missions.
If CCP REALLY wanted to curb the buying of ISK, make the missions worthwhile, exciting and rewarding never seen a T2 item off a NPC either(I dont like getting a mining laser or 100 scourge missiles off a named npc or worse no loot at all) |
Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.22 19:33:00 -
[249]
Have you ever tried trading or manufacturing? I have made billions in the market alone, not to mention bpc sales.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Epidemis
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Posted - 2007.06.22 19:54:00 -
[250]
Isk for GTC is ingenious and doesnt involve any of the points listed.
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STLEM2
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Posted - 2007.06.23 00:00:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger Real Money Trading has two faces. You either get RL money with the ISK or get ISK with RL money:
Buying ISK with RL money: 1) You have RL Money but need ISK 2) You go to the internet and you buy GTC 3) You sell GTC for ISK on the forums. 4) Voila, you now have no money, but lots of ISK.
^ That works under the current system.
Quote: Converting ISK into RL money: 1) You have ISK but you need RL money 2) You buy GTC with ISK (see above) 3) You setup a web site to re-sell the GTC for RL money 4) Voila, you now have RL money and no ISK
With the second, well you know... ISK farmers etc etc.
^ That doesn't work. If you buy a GTC with isk under the current system you need to have the characters name that will be 'activated' through use of that GTC. It's not transferable and you don't actually get the GTC so you can't resell it. The only way to do it would be to setup an illegitimate GTC selling shop, then you would need the customers account name, and then after doing that you would need to go and find someone selling a GTC for isk. And match the two up. It's not impossible, but it's pretty damn hard.
Now with 'legitmate' and 'safe' ways of converting isk > GTCs and GTCs > isk. It makes it far far harder for people to sell isk for real life currency. Which in turn reduces macro mining etc etc. Basically isk sellers have to come up with a long winded creative way to convert their isk, or sell it at a huge discount for the 'risk' involved.
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Nomad2k
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Posted - 2007.06.23 00:38:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Nomad2k on 23/06/2007 00:38:27
Originally by: Epidemis Isk for GTC is ingenious and doesnt involve any of the points listed.
Then im good to go then
ok ill cya's when im in my 40+ mill char and pwning the **** outta yas :D
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.23 00:52:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Nomad2k Edited by: Nomad2k on 23/06/2007 00:38:27
Originally by: Epidemis Isk for GTC is ingenious and doesnt involve any of the points listed.
Then im good to go then
ok ill cya's when im in my 40+ mill char and pwning the **** outta yas :D
The only difference here is CCP cut out the middleman. They can care less that RL money buys isk, as long as they are involved in the transaction.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Lilu Dallus
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Posted - 2007.06.24 03:14:00 -
[254]
Dear Gamers,
It is obviously unfair to the majority of respectable players that people are allowed to exchange their real life income on game cards to exchange for the "virtual" currency. These cards merely act as CCP "money orders". Regulating cheaters doesn't make it better - it just makes the house a guilty party.
I shouldn't be able to get a brand-new faction cruiser merely because I was more able to part with my money. Does no one care about little jimmy, whom has to spend a month farming every day to pay for his new ship. Secured or not, I do not respect the purchasing of ISK.
I also find it quiet suspicious that someone would part with the game currency for the the CCP cards.
If someone cannot afford to pay for game time through the conventional methods - perhaps they should just not play at all.
I wouldn't be surprised if the seller, if not some macro miner or scammer, had an addiction or have been cut-off by their parents or friends.
As a parent, I wouldn't be too happy to find my son's bedroom has become the latest internet child-labor sweatshop; soon to be a featured amnesty project.
This is a game, folks - and it's "pay to play", not "play to pay".
Thank you, Lilu
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Vdub2002
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Posted - 2007.06.24 04:23:00 -
[255]
about GTC sales- i have sold 2-3 GTC's, and i have bought a couple when i had to make ends meet, and eve just wasnt in the budget, for some people its easy to make 100mil+ in a couple days, 2 days of work, playing, having fun, can give you 28 days of doing what ever. GTC game sales, isnt bad, it helps alot!
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Aqua Jade
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Posted - 2007.07.12 10:06:00 -
[256]
Hi, I'm a relative newbie, and i've just heard, with some alarm that isk rewards 4 missions maybe be removed, as someone who only plays occasionally, and just for fun, somethink as drastic as that would seriously make me think of quiting the game, i also think that i would not be the only one. Do we have anything definitive on this yet,
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Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.12 21:53:00 -
[257]
ISK rewards removed from missions? That'll be the day.
L5 missions don't have NPC bounties, maybe that's what you're thinking about? --- Proud Amarr pilot.
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Jean Debrusc
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Posted - 2007.07.15 05:49:00 -
[258]
By it's self, trading in game credits for cash isn't a problem and it does not have any ill effects on a games economy. The problem comes from macro miners and credit farmers who increase the amount of credits in game in order to sell the new credits for cash. They(bot miners) are like a government printing more and more paper money. The more floating around the less it is worth(basic economics).
If CCP would stop the bot miners, put proper sinks in the game and control new ISK creation everything would be fine. But from other threads I have read, CCP has no intention at stopping the bot miners.
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding Zzz
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Posted - 2007.07.15 06:44:00 -
[259]
Whilst I definetly don't condone the purchase of isk for real life money, for as long as GTC sales are allowed, then as far as I am concerned, a lot of that dev blog is null and void.
Whilst I do purchase GTC for isk, I don't see how the end result is any different tbh. One person gets rich using his own RL money. Insured Research and Production Services Queues |
The Sol
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Posted - 2007.07.16 17:14:00 -
[260]
Edited by: The Sol on 16/07/2007 17:20:48 money makes the world go around eh
I think ccp are doing a grand job at balancing,
after all its a company, companies make money
why are all the bots in game still eh think about it
they are paying ccp to be there, they are paying customers like me and you
edit
these are just my opinions and do not really count for anything, I could be wrong or I could be right, either way don't buy isk, make it
it's so easy to spot bots, a program could pick out thousands of them and of course a program could monitor the amount of money being transferred eh
ccp cannot afford to event programs they lose out on thousands of paying bots
one thing you need to ask yourself before flaming ccp
would there be less game content in eve if the isk selling and bot farming were abolished
if there's money to be made then people will do it
I think there are doing a good job at balancing, profits need to be going up not down
it's called life as life is run by money and money buys nice shiny cars
okay go ahead flame me lol the game is excellent and it will get better and better, eventually the player base will get larger and larger, eventually they will clamp down on the isk business
WoW has millions of players, they can afford countermeasures
eve has thousands of players, countermeasures will cost eve dearly at the moment, eve will evolve
eve rocks, don't buy isk upgrade your intelligence haha
okay Flame away lol
Sol
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KING777
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:50:00 -
[261]
I agree and i do understand learnt my lesson the hard way
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Argus Sorn
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Posted - 2007.07.24 13:36:00 -
[262]
Ditto from me. ISK through GTC is simply a form of money laundering then. I can sell ISK, but first I need to take the money I am given, use it to buy GTC's, then use the GTC's to buy ISK. The end result is the same. The only difference is CCP gets the cash or a cut depending on the rate I sell at.
Originally by: Farrellus Cameron I would like further clarification on this issue. It is allowed to buy GTC's and then sell them for isk? In essence, that is buying isk, but it is giving the money to CCP instead. Or am I just confused as to the GTC rules?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.24 20:31:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Argus Sorn Ditto from me. ISK through GTC is simply a form of money laundering then. I can sell ISK, but first I need to take the money I am given, use it to buy GTC's, then use the GTC's to buy ISK. The end result is the same. The only difference is CCP gets the cash or a cut depending on the rate I sell at.
Originally by: Farrellus Cameron I would like further clarification on this issue. It is allowed to buy GTC's and then sell them for isk? In essence, that is buying isk, but it is giving the money to CCP instead. Or am I just confused as to the GTC rules?
The key difference is that farmers can't do the reverse under the secure system. There seems to be little concern about having $$$ -> ISK trade. The problems is ISK -> $$$, as it provides motivation for the more evil things mentioned in the blog.
The basic idea behind the ISK-GTC trade is that you can make a trade where one person trades in-game resources in exchange for the option to play the game where they might not otherwise afford to play because of limited cash. Nothing wrong there.
What CCP does not want is people abusing the game to make money for themselves.
Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Landrassa
Astral Resource Cartel
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Posted - 2007.07.24 22:03:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Jean Debrusc By it's self, trading in game credits for cash isn't a problem and it does not have any ill effects on a games economy. The problem comes from macro miners and credit farmers who increase the amount of credits in game in order to sell the new credits for cash. They(bot miners) are like a government printing more and more paper money. The more floating around the less it is worth(basic economics).
If CCP would stop the bot miners, put proper sinks in the game and control new ISK creation everything would be fine. But from other threads I have read, CCP has no intention at stopping the bot miners.
Please, please, PLEASE stop perpetuating this myth. Mining, whether macro or not, does not introduce new isk into the economy. Unless of course there's a new type of asteroid out there that deposits isk directly into one's wallet after every cycle. If there is, please share? What it does do is increase supply of minerals/ice products however, thereby making it next to impossible for a hisec non-macro miner to compete with the income of for example a mission runner, but that is a different story.
What does introduce new isk is mission rewards and bounties, but that's been known forever, and is balanced, to a certain extent at least, by the sinks currently in place.
------------------------------------------------ As I walk in the Valley of the Omber of Death, I shall have no fear... |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.25 07:43:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Ki Tarra The key difference is that farmers can't do the reverse under the secure system.
Unfortunately, the unsecure system is still allowed. CCP have repeatedly said that it isn't "supported" any more but have so far made absolutely no attempt to actually make a rule against it. People have been using the unsecure system for so long that it's just not feasible to make a rule prohibiting it until the new secure system has become firmly established and every single player is told (via the once-only message ads when starting eve after a patch) that the old method is no longer allowed.
Only once they officially ban the old system can we actually say that gtc trade doesn't support RMT in both directions. The idea that someone can buy their way into eve with cash, including buying characters and everything, however, is here to stay. It's not fair, it's RMT and it's officially allowed. It's devblogs like the one linked in the original post here that really bring out the hypocrisy in allowing GTC for isk trades to remain in eve.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Vrognem
Ardent Adversary Anvil.
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Posted - 2007.07.30 01:43:00 -
[266]
Before I start: I don't care if I'm necroing..
Why is it that when people petition macros/isk farmers most of the time nothing is done? I petitioned some lately (leader being uiis who I'll bet is on right now hauling away in lonetrek for his 4-5 covetors). People like PICTURKUST as well who have been reigning free for almost a year.
GM Todaki told me in response (instead of banning them for some reason..) to watch out for them using cans from other toons and then getting ganked by ravens etc. Well.. that's what I want to happen... they ain't doing much against a PVP maelstrom in a badly fitted raven lmao.
So.. take notice, get those polaris frigates out and actually look at the ISK farmer/macro types that go in big groups with all sorts of vowel-less names... see where the money goes, double check and ban everything in between it.
Or maybe you guys want those lovely subscription fees? Maybe that is why you don't ban them when they blatantly farm.....
Get it sorted, or the respect for your integrity will slowly go down the drain.
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Balthasar Moreq
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:58:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Terminus adacai I have three paying accounts. Paying accounts aren't the problem, it is trial accounts that kill the game. Don't believe me? check out this thread Linkage
As long as they allow unlimited trial accounts to be created like this, you are going to have issues with a false economy. The blog speaks of inflation, that is only true of cornered markets on specific items. For example, if the farmers quit placing Trit on the market for example, the price will go up. that is inflation. What we have day to day is deflation.
I have seen a small region band together and drive the farmers out. What happens? Mineral prices and therefore manufactured good prices begin to go back up, reflecting a truer value.
CCP can fix this simple enough in a few steps...
1. Filter and sort out accounts that are logged 23/7 and look at activity. If they belong to a NCP and mine 23 hours a day, 7 days a week and have a gibberish name, you have a macro miner. Plain and simple.
2. look for massive amounts of isk transfers on a daily basis. If you see isk transfers in the billions to other characters that they have not had previous contact with, you have an isk transferrer.
3. look for trial players that send numerous Eve mails soliciting isk for sale that are all the exact same text (can't be difficult, as Hotmail, Yahoo and others routinely filter this scum out) and ban them. In fact, ban the IP domain. Here you have located a solicitor on yet again, a TRIAL ACCOUNT.
(please quit responding to petitions that are filed regarding this asking the petitioner to stop petitioning as someone else may have already reported this. All petitions regarding isk solicitors should be investigated. Do the police ask the public not to report suspicious behavior simply because it MAY have already been reported?)
4. Don't ask your community to police your game. You have created the rules and environment that allow this to go on and in effect destroy the very game you love and develop.
While we are happy to help, I for one am tired of petitions pointing out violators being closed with no response, or a pasted response saying you will look into it.
5. Don't allow trial accounts to post in trade channels. This has been suggested numerous times and seems to fall on deaf ears. In fact, do not allow trial accounts to Eve mail players that do not have the trial account character in their address book.
If you took any 3 of these suggestions seriously, you would seriously reduce the problem.
term
Signed. As the poster says, any 3 of these suggestions would put a huge dent in the ISK sellers.
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blahhhblahh
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:28:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Vrognem
Get it sorted, or the respect for your integrity will slowly go down the drain.
What integrity ? Between numerus Dev misconduct scandle's and the nerf bat they have none.
People who know about these things know CCP doesn't care about the players. We who have been here know this.. And yet we still play in the false hope that someday it might get better.
Many of us Love this game.. And are willing to put up with quite a lot to still play it.. But .. It is getting to the point where the silliness is getting out of hand. (See the latest nerf on NOS for a example of what i mean)
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Will Wrecker
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:49:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Selzer
Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in.
2) With ISK selling you can cash out your in game assets for RL currency.
If you can "cash out" you can move/launder money internatinally. Many governments don't like this and WILL squash CCP if they let this go on.
Dal
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
CCP obviously doesn't like people buying their way ahead in the game (either that or the Dev Blog is lying), so the only reason I can see that they would allow GTC sales is because it is a revenue source for them.
Sad to see how much of stupid there are playing EVE. If ISK is traded only for GTC's, NOBODY GETS RICH!!! It is too much for macroers to get rich doing this. Pilots buying GTC's, are only doing it for their own pleasure. The benefit u get is minor. And noone does it doing macro-stuff, not just worth it.
This is the way that does not affect to the game play. Large scale macroing takes down the market prices and affect to the game play.
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LvxOccvlta
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:01:00 -
[270]
Evil corporations like BoB get kickbacks from the sale of GTC's through websites like shattered crystal.
I for one, would like to see this playing field leveled, and see a brake pulled on the inflation of isk.
Also, Economics 101 is simple common sense. When you have people plunking down 15 bucks to buy 150 million isk it is VERY inflationary. As people buy isk for real $$$, those in-game resources are not being converted into products to create that market velocity of exchange that drives eve's economy. There is no scarcity of resources, and there is an over-abundance of isk in the hands of players. This is probably why valuable ore like Zydrine collapsed, as well as the once rare, and ultra expensive tech 2 market.
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Wrattus Novum
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Posted - 2007.08.02 23:34:00 -
[271]
Account hacking aside, it seems to me the core issue here is the proliferation of ISK generated by macro miners. After all, if it wasn't easy to generate ISK the cost of selling ISK would be prohibitive, yes?
Consider that macros rely on a dialog box for a given action appearing in the same coordinate on screen each time. IE suppose hauler_xyz has a bookmark to a jetcan where miner xyz is dropping ore. The macro for the hauler (starting from a station in the system) simply moves the mouse twice and clicks. IE with the people + place dialog open, right click at (300,250) , move to (310,260), left click).
Defeating this method seems trivial, since it relies on the dialog appearing at a fixed coordinate onscreen. Add a small rand function to the dialog code, such that instead of the dialog appearing always at, e.g. 300,260 it appears instead at (300+rand(20),260+rand(20). This slight mis-alignment presents minimal challenge to a real player but is insurmountable to a macro, which will always end up clicking in the wrong spot.
Disclaimer: I don't really know how macros operate. Anyone out there know the actual mechanics? I can't imagine they are screen scraping or hacking the client API.
-----
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
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Posted - 2007.08.04 16:35:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/08/2007 16:35:33 Wrattus, moving the dialogue box is trivial for a deacent macro to counter. And it's going to annoy legitimate players too. (And yes, using python injection techniques is pretty easy and I'd be expecting them to use that)
//Maya |
Zantrei Kordisin
True Centii
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:31:00 -
[273]
Well, I think people miss out on a fair few points. Personally I dislike the GTC system in that it allows people to gain ingame items for real money, however I do believe it has an overall positive effect. To put one thing, simply:
There will always be people who are willing to take the risk of buying ISK, be it from ISK sellers or from selling GTC's.
There is nothing that can be done about that in my opinion, it is human nature that those who are wealthy in real life will wish to use that fact to their advantage in an internet spaceships game. The positives of the GTC system:
- It allows a lot of people who otherwise can not pay, to play the game.
- It does not cause ISK to be injected into the economy.
- It has the potential to completely stamp out ISK sellers, who employ the use of keyloggers etc as some of their ISK generating methods, as per the blog.
These positives, in my opinion, more than justify the system. What needs to be done now by CCP, is the fact that the system allows for ISK sellers to be stamped out, needs to be used. Make sure that everybody who buys ISK from ISK sellers gets the isk taken away. Starve the ISK sellers of customers, generally, just make it so rediculously dangerous to buy ISK, that people use the GTC system instead.
I personally don't think the GTC system is implemented purely to make CCP money, as, well - I think the number of ISK sellers and macro accounts potentially outnumbers the number of people who rely on GTC's. The GTC system potentially allows the EVE universe to be rid of ISK sellers. I don't understand how people can not see it as a positive thing.
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elgino4th
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Posted - 2007.08.19 19:30:00 -
[274]
i have just got this eve mail asking me to buy isk for money
2007.08.19 19:00 Hello Sorry to bother you. Fast delivery(15 minutes) of isk at www.vipplat.com, counpon code 8888 which can give you 10% bonus when you place the order with it. 200 million isk costs you only $11.92, and 3000 Million only costs you $162.86 thanks for your time! yours monly today at 20:40 i payed for a hyperion but did not get it so i am cheesed off so i will be demanding one from ccp |
elgino4th
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:13:00 -
[275]
i just wanted you all to know that it is doing my tree in the numbar of time that i have been eve mail asking me to buy isk for money and i would like to see it stamped out.
today at 20:40 i payed for a hyperion but did not get it so i am cheesed off so i will be demanding one from ccp |
Aurhon
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:38:00 -
[276]
I look at this way.
you have CCP, the ISK seller, and the ISK buyer. First if people really wants to purchase ISK you can't stop them no matter what you do people will still buy ISK. Either through time code trading, from a third party or a private trade. This has no impact on CCP monthly subscription income. Because if Buyer trade a Time code for isk means Buyer still have to pay CCP additonal for his/her own playing time. As to the seller who purchased the time code it simply means buyer is paying game time for the seller. Either way CCP gets the payment of both Buyer and the seller. In the case buyer purhcased ISK directly from the seller through third party or private trade both buyer and seller still have to pay CCP monthly subscription to play the game. Either way CCP gets payed monthly subscription from both buyer and seller. My point here is ISK buying dose not impact the ammount of monthly subcription paied to CCP.
With that said the problem lies in the effect of being able to get isk with out playing the game to earn it. I don't see a real problem there since the unique skill system eve use even if you have 10 billion isk with out taking the time to train you can't do any thing with the isk. I don't see why CCP would even bother to enforce the rule isk buying is ileagel. If your blameing people for using the blue print originals to generate ISK, the problem lie with the blue print originals and how the game works. My thoughts are the oposite maybe if you actually allow ISK real $ trading you might see a subscription increase.
Finally the only way to stop isk influencing new players is to ban all form of ISK trading including the time code trading. But your just going against what some of the players wants to do. I also agree it's not cool isk seller spam chat chanels. Maybe if CCP actually allow isk trading and setup a place to allow that to happen then you may solve the problem with the spaming. No matter how hard you try you can't stop people form geting ISK through some form of trade may it be a gift, loan, prive trade, or on e-bay. So why spend the energy trying to stop some thing that you can't instead concentrate on improving the game?
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DeMundus
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.08.22 00:54:00 -
[277]
All the arguments in that blog also entails that GTC should be illegal, only diffrence is CCP is getting the cash. EX. We killed a noob who bought a char. and a Thanatos with ISK that game from GTC - We later learned by a Corp m8 of his he was only 6 weeks old and spend 1000+ dollars on GTC, his parents got ****ed because he spend that much cash on a fiction space ship and got it blown up by pirates... BUT point being it puts power in ppl's hands that have not "earned" it, as stated ISK IS POWER...
Iam very much against GTC for ISK. The only reason CCP allows it is because of the cash they get - I don't see any other valid point. Abandon all hope But take care of teh cake!11 - Immy |
Sareem
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.22 13:51:00 -
[278]
The real problem with isk farmers is that the prices they practice are competitive. Specially for the european isk buyer (yes, I know it's illegal, but people do it just the same).
Let me explain: European gamers pay more than US gamers do, due to the fact that CCP charges the monthly fee without having a conversion rate: 1 month equals 14.95USD for USA or 14.95Euros for europe. You have to account that 14.95Euros are actually 20.15USD with current rate.
Well, if you check any isk seller online, you'll see that for that same 20 bucks amount, possibly a little more, you'll get somewhere about 400ISK. With that, you can buy a gametime code for 3 months and still keep some ISK for yourself, thus buyng 3 months illegally for the price of a little more than one legally.
I've said it before, CCP overcharges players and seems not to be able to deal with the current EVE problems and with that, motivates isk sellers to produce more and more, becouse customers never end.
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Rugs
Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2007.08.22 22:49:00 -
[279]
I buy GTCs every month, usually from official resellers or sometimes from players when i feel like i have the ISK to do it, on some occasions i've bought GTCs and sold them as i've been broke ingame with 0 ISK, i'm fine with that option. What i'm against are the guys sitting with 5-6 accounts macro mining/farming isk in other ways then selling it on ebay or wherever to make RL money. It's a game, you're not supposed to make a living on it. As you can see in both ways CCP gets money and in one of them i have to pay with RL money. Nothing wrong with CCP wanting the money, it is they who made the game and are developing it, they should get paid for it and they are also the only ones that should make any money out of it. Only ones that are doing anything wrong here are the ones selling ISK outside the game for real money or selling GTCs (that are bought with ISK) for real money.
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MeganBlood
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Posted - 2007.10.15 00:38:00 -
[280]
I just wanted to suggest a way to undermine the ISK Sellers by selling youre own ISK?
You could setup a system that lets players (like me),who dont really have the money but have the time to play, to sell the ISK to you (Eve Online) in EXCHANGE for credit to pay the fee for playng. Those ISK could be re-sold to players who dont have the time but got the money. So the selling player dont "make" money out of it but get to continue playing Eve Online and the Buying players gets what he wants, ISK. On the other side third party sellers will lose profitability on there operations and will shrink or die; either way, it free's up staff for support and makes some players happy.
You could make a profit out of it, help poorer players and undermine other ISK Sellers all at the same time. Because, why go to the black market if you can go legit whit no risk?
Well i would apprechiate to ear from you on this one.
P.S. I do not sell my ISK to ISK Sellers; You can check my logs any day you want.
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Galdron
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Posted - 2007.10.15 03:39:00 -
[281]
Hi i'm new to this game only been playing for 2 days still on trial account lol, however I am not new to MMO's. From what I have read in the posts and what I know about farmers and the current situation I have to ask are you sure you guys know what the hell your doing? You really think that Adding a secure way to transfer the GTC's and making that the only way is going to stabalize your economy and stop the farming?
Farmers sell in-game currency dirt cheap, right now you can do a google search for EvE Currency and find a crap load of vendors. I can tell you that right now that the farmers are selling 200 mil Isk for $10 and 400 mil for $20.
Take this into consideration, your allowing players to go to a retailer buy GTC's and come here and sell them in-game for ingame currency, Farmers who are selling in-game currency dirt cheap have tons of it. All they have to do is buy up the GTC's that the players sell here, go to their premade website or go to ebay and sell the GTC's they obtained to make RL money. Not to mention your making easier for them to make a higher profit that way.
Players are selling 30day GTC's for 170 mil - 185 mil and 90day GTC's for 385 mil - 410 mil 30day GTC's from retailer cost 14.99, 90 costs 38.99 let's do the math.
Farmers: 200 mil - $10 = 30 day GTC 400 mil - $20 = 90 day GTC
looking at that up there all they have to do is get the GTC's sold by players here, sell them as a retailer outside and make the same abount of RL money they were. Not only that but you allowed them to be able to raise their prices to make more. making 200 mil = 12.99 and 400 mil = 35.99
Your not only allowing them to sell and farm GTC's this way your also allowing them to increase their profits, by under slashing the other retailers.
Also with that the cycle of money from just one GTC seems ridiculous.
Retailer - GTC 1 Buyer buys GTC 1 from retailer Retailer has in game player(s), retailer player(s) buys GTC 1 back from buyer. Retailer resells GTC 1 to Buyer 2 and the cycle continues, providing an unwavering amount of income for Retailer.
Oh also since GTC sells are private I.E. retailer to buyer, they can be untrackable by CCP
Like I said I am new and haven't been playing for long so please if I have made errors in this comment by overlooking some special rules or regulations about the subject please fill me in.
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Aluthin
Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:36:00 -
[282]
u could stop isk farmers by making asteroid belts non fixed make them all part of the anomolies bit so that u have too scan/probe belts out ...... this would make it a lot harder for macroers and isk farmers.....
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Domitianvs
Amarr East Khanid Trading
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:34:00 -
[283]
Not really. Alot of them have moved on to do macro missions and macro ratting.
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BulGaro
Minmatar Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
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Posted - 2007.10.16 11:48:00 -
[284]
What will happen if there's limit to the selling of GTC. For example let's say that you can NOT sell more EVE Time that you've played. You play 3 months you could sell 3 months GTC, you play one more month, you can sell 1 month GTC etc.
And for God sake - stop buying ISK
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Marcus Danning
Caldari Aquila Victrix
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Posted - 2007.10.17 03:07:00 -
[285]
Ok, Im not sure if it has been said yet or not as I don't have the time to read to the last page but when it comes to GTC sales I realy think ppl should take a step back to see what it has done to the ISK sellers.
Unfortunatly I don't have any hard facts or statistics but think about it. By CCP giving the player base a SAFE and LEGAL way to "buy" ISK they have made buying from a potentualy Unsafe and and compleatly Illegal ISK seller kinda silly. Why would I (or the avg player) risk both account and RL money by buying from an illegal source when there is a legal one readly available? The Truth is, I wouldn't. And I doubt the avg player would ether.
When everything is said and done GTC sales have helped to reduce the demand for ISK sellers AND they have provided a way for those of us with more ISK than RL cash continue to play the game we love.
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Marlo Jombardo
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Posted - 2007.10.17 03:47:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Marlo Jombardo on 17/10/2007 03:48:31 first: YEAR! f... all these cheeters, botuser, macroers and spammers!
Originally by: Max Tesla How do they know who bought the isk or not???
ever notice the entrys of your wallet? for every transaction at any form you can see from who to who ;). and that's only what you see. CCP might have much more detailt informations.
Quote: What if the seller gives away isk for free to people and then when ccp checks all transactions they will ban even those who got it for free
that will NEVER ever happen. they try to earn real money with it, the will NEVER gave away something for free!
Quote: also that would be a perfect way to get vengence on some people Become an isk seller sell to some and transfer free isk to the ones you hate and then get cought so that the ones you hate get banned
just if you intend to never play EVE anymore as I'm pritty sure CCP will ban all accounts that belong a) to your name b) your email c) your personal stats (bank accounts, street, etc)
don't belive that game developer/programmer are stupid. if they can create a game like EVE it's a matter of minutes for them to program a valide filter for something like that .
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Centari Callisto
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Posted - 2007.10.17 08:01:00 -
[287]
I don't have a problem with macro miners, isk farmers, GTC sellers, character farmers its all just part of the game now. Give macro miners their own server and charge them higher subscription charges and don't allow subscription by GTC. If it keeps some poor Chinese family from dying of starvation then that is great.
I personally don't buy isk or farm characters but I do buy GTC's to play the game.
just my opinion
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Randy West
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.17 18:39:00 -
[288]
GTC's are fine with me
I am not going to try and dictate in what ways CCP makes money for the product that they provide.
As a matter of fact if it were up to me and I ran CCP I would be figuring a way to sell isk to people that wanted to purchase it. That way they can kind of control the pricing and the market so to speak. It would kill isk sales on e bay at the very least.
I would also try to figure out a way for people to resell their accounts back to CCP for money so CCP could resell if they so desired. Or a way to purchase existing account thru CCP similar to the charecter transfer they have now.
Lets face it CCP is a business and a business needs to make money. If people don't like it or can't appreciate it then they can play another game. It wouldn't be long until these folks found another reason to dislike CCP and want them to change something else in game.
I don't think many have a problem with the GTC's and if they did they have never run a business.
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Valea
Wrath Of Khaine
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Posted - 2007.10.18 01:11:00 -
[289]
Your arguments hold little integrity when you examine your policy on alts and GTCs. aka: It's totally fine to spend money to get more power in EVE, as long as WE get the money. Perhaps if you are serious about stopping the buying and selling of power in EVE, you will take a look at these clearly hypocritical policies.
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Rocka Stargirl
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:40:00 -
[290]
Well, this thread has been going a while now, and looks like everyone is laughing at it instead of taking it seriously.
Epic fail kieron. EPIC!
--- We do what we must, because we can. |
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Zolian
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Posted - 2007.10.28 19:24:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Zolian on 28/10/2007 19:24:21
Originally by: Selzer
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
QFT
Hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
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Blank Protection
Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.29 06:03:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Zolian
Hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
Indeed. I`m pretty sure that 95% of the people in this thread buys game time for ISK. Including myself and i keep doing it. What`s wrong about that? If i can make somebody happy with a view hundred million ISK and i get my playing time for it in return by GTC thats great. I dont like to keep on paying real money for this never ending game. And i work hard for my ISK in game.
Btw* You all have the ISK selling/buying with GTC in own hands.
Start dropping the insane high ISK price for GTC`s first.
100 million for 30 days and 250 million for 90 days GTC instead.
CCP is doing a great job with the ISK for Game Time Card thing.
But they can start to reduse the time consuming part of the game and make it more easy to make ingame ISK by giving higher ammounts of ORE with mining roids for example. Reduse the cycle time of stripminer to 60 sec also. A Osprey with T2 mininglasers on it makes almost the same ammount of a covetor. And i need to train almost 3 month`s to fly the insane ship.
Game is much to time consuming for making ISK thats why you get illegal ISK farmers and sellers on EBay.
*Btw I`m always right,even if i dont* |
Shosuro Ryoko
The Blackstone Group Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.30 06:26:00 -
[293]
GTC trades shoot the wind out of the sails of the GM's first post. Common sense eliminates the rest.
CCP is making money either way, as isk farmers still have to buy game time. Unless of course CCP is being really hypocritical and giving them a discount. Given all the isk they have I'd wager they pay for their accounts with isk via GTC, or at least the smart ones do. Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
Furthermore, Second Life has a perfectly functional economy and it allows direct transfer of real money to and from your game account at a variable exchange rate. Rather than spending millions of man-hours trying to stop supply and demand, they set up a bank and what is essentially a new real-money currency. People pay real money for in game stuff, or sell in game stuff and convert to real money. I'm sure Second Life has chinese farmers earning in-game money and converting it to real-world money too, the end result is the same: more subscribers to the game.
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fell1234
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Posted - 2007.10.30 18:55:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Shosuro Ryoko GTC trades shoot the wind out of the sails of the GM's first post. Common sense eliminates the rest.
CCP is making money either way, as isk farmers still have to buy game time. Unless of course CCP is being really hypocritical and giving them a discount. Given all the isk they have I'd wager they pay for their accounts with isk via GTC, or at least the smart ones do. Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
Furthermore, Second Life has a perfectly functional economy and it allows direct transfer of real money to and from your game account at a variable exchange rate. Rather than spending millions of man-hours trying to stop supply and demand, they set up a bank and what is essentially a new real-money currency. People pay real money for in game stuff, or sell in game stuff and convert to real money. I'm sure Second Life has chinese farmers earning in-game money and converting it to real-world money too, the end result is the same: more subscribers to the game.
1. You are 100% correct allowing GTC's to be purchased with in game currency you are HELPING the "illegal" isk farmers to function. You have made it possible to be 100% self sufficient by merely playing the game for any farmer.
2. Second life is not an MMO based on direct competition between players. The entire foundation of eve is COMPETITION. Allowing people to purchase power in a game based on competition is awful. It was such a scandal for devs to assist players outside of the rules. But its ok for me to BUY similar assistance?
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Banjo String
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Posted - 2007.10.30 20:25:00 -
[295]
Ok, I've reads oodles of posts about this, but no-one seems to bring up the thought I have about GTC's for ISK.
I think it's amazing, that any MMO decides to reward loyalty to the game by letting you play the game for free.
If you play long enough, and get to the point 200M ISK isn't a problem for you to generate in 30 Days of play, then looky! CCP say you can play the game for free now. None of your own real money involved.
I think thats cool.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.10.31 02:01:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Banjo String Ok, I've reads oodles of posts about this, but no-one seems to bring up the thought I have about GTC's for ISK.
I think it's amazing, that any MMO decides to reward loyalty to the game by letting you play the game for free.
If you play long enough, and get to the point 200M ISK isn't a problem for you to generate in 30 Days of play, then looky! CCP say you can play the game for free now. None of your own real money involved.
I think thats cool.
You have two groups of people that are in direct competition in a game solely based on said competition. One group is willing/able to invest 100's of real world dollars and dominates the group that does not. How is that fair or cool?
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Ari Chu
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.10.31 16:48:00 -
[297]
Edited by: Ari Chu on 31/10/2007 16:48:39 Two trains of thought on the matter:
I originally was opposed to ISK purchases - but as others have mentioned, CCP condones them as long as they (CCP) receive the actual cash... with that in mind - I can't, in good faith, continue to oppose the purchase or sale of ISK on the basis of an unfair ingame advantage. I also think that it is impossible for CCP to stop such transfers, and attempting to do so costs the company resources which could be used to improve the game.
Here is a scenario... Person A wants to purchase ISK from Person B. Person A sets up a corp and Person B joins that corp... as a member of the CORP - Person B mines/missions/rats/explores/whatever and donates the proceeds to the CORP - and Person A just uses those CORP assets. CCP has no way to show that Person A sent a PayPal payment to Person B prior to the situation occuring.... and trying to track down how many corps get influx of ISK from noobs mining and donating to the corp? Waste of resources.
BUT.. at the same time I think that CCP should do everything they (and we as a community) can to stop players from using BOTS and other automated actions. It is already easy enough to Mine AFK without using those programs - and it is clearly cheating to use them.
So, in the end: I'm opposed to CCP trying to stop ISK for cash transfers, and am even more opposed to players who use bots and other programs to cheat in the game.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Novgond Galathil
Caldari Justice Hackers
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Posted - 2007.11.01 21:38:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Brigadier Joe I don't mind GTCs.
Yes, it can get a player a rung or two higher up the ladder of Eve. But it doesn't effect the game in the ways mentioned in the Blog because only CCP benefit from isk-selling, and not farmers/exploiters.
CCP isk-selling doesn't depress the mineral markets (CCP's borked new regions do however...)
CCP isn't farming complexes, or phishing accounts, or macro-mining, or running a 24hr sweatshop, to get the isk to sell you. (ok, maybe that last one ) so GTC sales don't effect the overall player experience even remotely like the isk-sellers do.
In fact, GTC sales probably help the overall player experience, since there are many players who obviously can't afford the RL cash to continue to play. Think about the loss of diversity, community, and targets if that playerbase suddenly dropped out of Eve.
Someone who has a clue, finally...
You see - there will always be RMT ... Whatever CCP does, there still will be people selling isk for real money... WIth the GTC system - more people can play the game, and it DRASTICALLY decreases RMT by 3rd parties + CCP gets money that otherwise would be hoarded by some farmers in sweatshops.
It's a win-win-win situation... I am amazed some people are so full of jealousy and so blind to see it...
I agree with both of you completely... I think that GTC are a good regulated way, and it provides a way for people who don't have 8 hours a day to play to get a bit more money legally. Plus once you start making a bit of money it sure would be nice to be able to play without having to pay RL money...
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.11.02 14:20:00 -
[299]
this deserves a broader audience, 99,99% of the ISK buying ignorants will not be reading this blog.
legal actions beyond banning the account should be considered
countless,countless fan websites run banner-ads for ISK sellers the most famous ones are amongst them - GO GET THEM
spread a link to this blog across ingame mailboxes, or at least into the "fullofmarketingandprettypictures-newsletter" make it viewed by a majority - please
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Ronin Hatori
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2007.12.14 00:49:00 -
[300]
This is such BULLS**T. The only reason they do this is because they arent making any money off of it. They could care less if it affects the game. Case in point, you can still buy ISK by buying game cards and selling them for ISK just as easily as going to a ISK selling website. Just tell the truth. dont give us some long winded speech about youre only doing whats best for the game. You're doing whats best for your pockets, plain and simple!!
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Zzleeper
Amarr levisomnus spectatrix
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Posted - 2007.12.14 10:29:00 -
[301]
Edited by: Zzleeper on 14/12/2007 10:30:12
Originally by: Eldo Davip
Originally by: GM Guard Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency. The players involved bought a large number of expensive blueprints over a long period of time with the purpose of monopolizing the market on certain items. They attempted to drive prices as high as possible so that they could skim more money off the top and sell more ISK on Ebay
Damn. Hope's they are some good BPOs so they get reseeded
Reseeded to who? BOB?
Destroy em! Signature removed. Mail us at [email protected] if you want to join BOB and claim your free T2 BPO - Valorem
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2007.12.18 16:53:00 -
[302]
GM Guard: The problems caused by ISK selling take up a lot of our time. The more time we are forced to spend on matters caused by this epidemic, the less time we have to help players with other problems.
A pure example of scape-goating if I ever heard it. Blaming "bad players" are the reason CCP sucks at helping us. PLEASE. At least come up with a better, more inventive, excuse. Maybe the problem is that the people that are supposed to be helping the players are the SAME ones that are chasing the isk sellers/buyers? Maybe you need to spend MORE of the ludicrous amount of money you charge for your game on customer support? Oh wait, that kinda gets into the whole "skimming money off the top" thing doesn't it? But, I'll talk about that in a minute.... I agree with some of the stuff that has been said in this thread about hypocracy STRONGLY. It is kinda poor of CCP to blame so MANY of the problems in Eve on isk sellers/buyers, when they themselves are the BIGGEST isk sellers of them all!!
GM Guard: Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency.
Still scratching my head over this one. Granted, selling the iskies for real money = very bad, mmmkay. You DESERVE to get your account perma banned for that. But, on the other side, isn't cornering the market so you can charge whatever you want for stuff, part of the game AS DESIGNED??? Everybody should be so lucky and determined to get this kinda thing going... it's a market traders dream! Wow GMs, THINK before you open your pie hole.
GM Guard: This is one of the more serious and tragic results of the ISK selling business. ISK sellers constantly conjure various plots to trick passwords out of players, for example with the aid of phishing sites etc.
Shameless scare tactics. And I thought you could sink no lower CCP. Has this stuff happened? Sure. Does it happen as often as CCP wants you to believe. No. On the flipside though, do people who buy from these sites deserve whatever they get? Absolutely. Come on people, CCP has a souless greed tactic in place to get more money out of you that ALLOWS you to buy isk WITHIN the rules, its called GTC selling. Do THAT, and then the community at least GETS something out of it. CCP gets even richer than they already are, but hell, we're all in THAT trap.
GM Guard: 2. Spamming
PLEASE. Give me a break. As IF CCP couldn't do something about this with a flick of thier magic wands. PUT A STRICT LIMIT ON HOW MANY PLAYERS AND HOW OFTEN TRAIL ACCOUNTS CAN MAIL!!! THINK people! Do the PLAYERS have to solve all of your problems FOR you?!?
In closing, if CCP put more strict, but well thought out, limitations on the trial accounts, 95% of these problems would evaporate. I.E. Cheap sweatshops don't like SPENDING money to make money. They would concentrate on other games, where the pickings are easier. Ideas: #1 No trial accounts in low sec or no sec. What the hell business do they have out there anyway? This would have a nice side effect of limiting the exploits BoB and GOON use them for too. #2 Put a strict, but reasonable, limit on how much a trial account can mine per day. Boom. 90% of the isk selling macros gone. It would become more trouble than it is worth for isk selling farms to open that many trial accounts. Real players will still do it on their accounts, but that is a seperate matter entirely. I mean, if CCP had thought out the minning conept a little better, and not made a main game activity as exciting as watching paint dry, this might not be a problem in the first place.
I guess the main part that angered me the most was the whole attitude of the blog that the PLAYERS were the cause of ALL of CCP's problems. My final point is this: Isn't it CCP's JOB, becuase of ALL the money we give them, to DEAL with these problems on their own? Argue with THAT, if you can, GMs.
*
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2007.12.19 10:33:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Sylthi
GM Guard: This is one of the more serious and tragic results of the ISK selling business. ISK sellers constantly conjure various plots to trick passwords out of players, for example with the aid of phishing sites etc.
[...] Come on people, CCP has a souless greed tactic in place to get more money out of you that ALLOWS you to buy isk WITHIN the rules, its called GTC selling. Do THAT, and then the community at least GETS something out of it. CCP gets even richer than they already are, but hell, we're all in THAT trap.
Three things I want to bring up: 1) CCP makes money on GTC trading? What??? how can they make money on one player buying the GTC, then giving it to another player for isk? the result on CCP:s side is +/- 0. 2) Eve is really not that expensive, compare with AO where you have to pay extra each month for every freakin expansion! 3) Sure GTC trading is allowed, but it is not profitable like clean isk selling. Comparison: (The isk selling end) Isk seller (macro miner) Mines minerals, sells them on market for isk (thereby lowering their market price). The isk is sold to player for pure real money profit.
GTC buyer Pays isk to get a GTC card. This card can then not be resold as it is added to the account in the process of trading it with the other player. The player makes money indirectly by not having to pay the subscription, but this money is "locked" into the game. There is also no use in buying more than a few GTC:s.
(the isk buying end) Isk buyer PAYS ISK SELLER money to get isk.
GTC seller PAYS CCP money for a GTC card which is then sold through the game mechanics to a player for isk. That player then get the corresponding game time, giving 0 profit for CCP.
Sure the GTC buyer can be a macro miner too, but he can only profit so much by buying GTC:s until he has payed his account for several years to come.
Disclamer: I have never bought GTC:s and don't know if they really work like this, however what I have read I think this is how it works.
Originally by: Sylthi
GM Guard: 2. Spamming
PLEASE. Give me a break. As IF CCP couldn't do something about this with a flick of thier magic wands. PUT A STRICT LIMIT ON HOW MANY PLAYERS AND HOW OFTEN TRAIL ACCOUNTS CAN MAIL!!! THINK people! [...]
Mostly agrees, though don't you think with less mails per trial account there will be more trial accounts instead? that is not good at all.
Originally by: Sylthi
In closing, if CCP put more strict, but well thought out, limitations on the trial accounts, 95% of these problems would evaporate. I.E. Cheap sweatshops don't like SPENDING money to make money. They would concentrate on other games, where the pickings are easier. Ideas: #1 No trial accounts in low sec or no sec. What the hell business do they have out there anyway? This would have a nice side effect of limiting the exploits BoB and GOON use them for too. #2 Put a strict, but reasonable, limit on how much a trial account can mine per day. Boom. 90% of the isk selling macros gone. It would become more trouble than it is worth for isk selling farms to open that many trial accounts. Real players will still do it on their accounts, but that is a seperate matter entirely. I mean, if CCP had thought out the minning conept a little better, and not made a main game activity as exciting as watching paint dry, this might not be a problem in the first place.
Mostly agrees.
Originally by: Sylthi
I guess the main part that angered me the most was the whole attitude of the blog that the PLAYERS were the cause of ALL of CCP's problems. My final point is this: Isn't it CCP's JOB, becuase of ALL the money we give them, to DEAL with these problems on their own? Argue with THAT, if you can, GMs.
Woah! to make a real world parallell: Is it the police fault that a sex buyer buys sex from a prostitute? Is it the police fault that someone buys stolen goods from a fence?
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2007.12.24 15:45:00 -
[304]
Not sure if this has already been stated, so sorry if it has. I got tired of reading the same oppinion post over and over without suggestions on how to fix the problem. If it is deamed a problem.
I have a few questions on this topic.
1) How much money can be generated from a Hulk macro minning?
2) If GTC's were gotten rid of, would it make the profitability of Macroing drop to a point where it would no longer be worth running an operation with numerous accounts.
- yes I know that this would "hurt" the people that can not afford to play the game. To this I say if you can not afford to play the game; you are either not old enough to earn money therefore, tough luck...or if you are old enough to work and can't afford to play then you need to either get a job or, yes, get another job. There are probably other bills that need to covered.
3) I will state that I am only roughly 4 months in game. I see and here this statement all the time IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOOSE IT DO NOT FLY IT. This right here I think is a big problem, point blank. People want to get in game and have the best stuff as soon as possible. Yes this might help drive the economy, but if NOOBs were not able to get into BS's so soon then they would not be pressed to spend so much isk so soon and therfore drop the temptation/need for players to have so much isk so quick.
Do this by adding support skill requirements to some of the more hearty of the ships. We currently have primary and secondary skill requirements to fly/use equipment. Now add support skill requirement tree to the heartier ships. I mean how long did the original EVE'rs play before BS's even came out? EVE has new players in BS' how quick now?
This in turn would also help push players into corporations to help with isk accumulation.
Once again this is a relatively uninformed player tossing out some suggestions, have fun with them.
____________________________________________________________________________________________ Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider "As me wallet grows so do me balls"
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2007.12.26 11:34:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Shosuro Ryoko Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
DIDDO
Originally by: MeganBlood You could setup a system that lets players (like me),who dont really have the money but have the time to play, to sell the ISK to you (Eve Online) in EXCHANGE for credit to pay the fee for playng. Those ISK could be re-sold to players who dont have the time but got the money. So the selling player dont "make" money out of it but get to continue playing Eve Online and the Buying players gets what he wants, ISK. On the other side third party sellers will lose profitability on there operations and will shrink or die; either way, it free's up staff for support and makes some players happy.
You could make a profit out of it, help poorer players and undermine other ISK Sellers all at the same time. Because, why go to the black market if you can go legit whit no risk?
Well i would apprechiate to ear from you on this one.
INTERESTING
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2007.12.26 11:39:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Sylthi
GM Guard: 2. Spamming
PLEASE. Give me a break. As IF CCP couldn't do something about this with a flick of thier magic wands. PUT A STRICT LIMIT ON HOW MANY PLAYERS AND HOW OFTEN TRAIL ACCOUNTS CAN MAIL!!! THINK people! Do the PLAYERS have to solve all of your problems FOR you?!?
In closing, if CCP put more strict, but well thought out, limitations on the trial accounts, 95% of these problems would evaporate. I.E. Cheap sweatshops don't like SPENDING money to make money. They would concentrate on other games, where the pickings are easier. Ideas: #1 No trial accounts in low sec or no sec. What the hell business do they have out there anyway? This would have a nice side effect of limiting the exploits BoB and GOON use them for too. #2 Put a strict, but reasonable, limit on how much a trial account can mine per day. Boom. 90% of the isk selling macros gone. It would become more trouble than it is worth for isk selling farms to open that many trial accounts. Real players will still do it on their accounts, but that is a seperate matter entirely. I mean, if CCP had thought out the minning conept a little better, and not made a main game activity as exciting as watching paint dry, this might not be a problem in the first place.
YES YES YES
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Mizerik
Grettistak
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Posted - 2007.12.27 02:26:00 -
[307]
"This conglomerate was found out and brought down by your friendly GMs and all those involved given a lifelong vacation from EVE. Their precious pile of blueprints will be reseeded to lucky players through the blueprint lottery."
So does this mean BoB will get a bunch of new BPO's? or will they get the "we can't find any record of that"
Sorry, my experience with GM's has been less then positive when doing anything other then finding macro runners.
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Aerick Dawn
Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.27 15:56:00 -
[308]
you could make a dent on these guys if you change the way cloaking works.
__________________ If I'm in a fair fight, i've done something terribly wrong. |
Max Essen
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Posted - 2008.01.03 21:34:00 -
[309]
I have no problem whatsoever with CCP making RL Cash by selling GTC's and outlawing ISK purchasers. I pay a monthly stipend to play Eve and realize that the game belongs to CCP and not me. It is their inherant right as a "for profit" company to make money and not want 3rd parties to subvert their hard earned enterprise.
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Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2008.01.10 08:50:00 -
[310]
If 3rd party isk selling ended tomorrow with a magic line of code alot of those people who buy isk directly now would be trying to sell GTCs left and right. With the demand on GTCs staying about the same the price of GTC in isk would go way down, maybe even 100mil for one month. This would leave alot of the isk buyers unsatisfied because the $ to isk ratio would be so terrible. So you would still have more people trying to sell GTCs than you do now, but the problems of $ for isk as it affects gameplay would be a whole bunch better.
I suppose if GTCs became very cheap isk wise the demand would increase slightly, but it would peak and then go back down..like a sin wave. If there was an official standard price in isk then the demand would stay the same, you could either afford it or not but there would be no demand flux.
Im not an economics major so please correct me if there are variables I have missed.
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sediminus
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Posted - 2008.01.18 10:52:00 -
[311]
Great post,
this should be compulsory reading for everyone ;)
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Lance85
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.21 01:00:00 -
[312]
I personally donÆt see anything wrong with buying isk for real money, in this game a new player needs some way to get ahead what with all the can batting, lack of general help be it in a help channel or just asking for help of some kind in a local. You must remember that when the big guys pick on the little guys the little guys will do everything within their power to become big even if it means that CCP does not get a few k. I can see how buying isk might affect the game in some way if said buyer is an active pvper however if not how does it do anything to the game itself when the most likely thing that money is going to be spent on is skills and ships and a whole lot of ammo for missions or whatever. BTW, the eve forums need a way to notify you when someone has replied to your message that would be cool.
----------------------------------------------- Lance85
Freelancer, Mission Runner, Miner, Production Engineer.
Never Forget It Is MMORPG. |
manasi
Caldari Valhalla Naval Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.22 18:56:00 -
[313]
WELL SAID! while i personally might not like the idea of a separate server the idea of graduation would be great. Allow people to run the training missions, gain some SP and when they come into EVE, they might have some cash and some training under their belt. PLUS the gold farmers that have bought accounts would be very easy to spot. Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 26/12/2007 16:32:57
Originally by: Sylthi
YES YES YES
Maybe, just maybe, if you put trial accounts on a seperate server. When someone wants to upgrade they pay the fee. I hear it now, what about my character why do I have to start all over. Well CCP, here you go. When you upgrade to the full game you get the normal character creation starting skill points plus an additional amount of SP's in a new tree with further specialization per build that would equal approximately 2 weeks of training. All professions should have frigate level 4, I mean we are all pod pilots is it not right to assume that in space pod pilots shouls all at the least be mostly proficient in the most basic of ships. Also, possibly say a few million isk start up.
Also when a new character comes into EVE on full game rights we can assume that they have "graduated" from pod pilot school. We should also assume that once school is out that the pilots would be kicked out of the school. All pilots that buy into the game are booted from the Rookie Corp and given a two week grace period to look for a corp. Once the two weeks are over then any pod pilot can war deck that player. This would either funnel more players into the corprations like EVE Univesity, or others. Either way it will force isk sellers to work themselves into the community instead of being easy to hide in Rookie Corps. Yes they could still hide in NPC corps after they join and leave said corp, but they still have to get into one. How ever easy to get back into a NPC corp it is still one more step that they have to go through to get to the point where they can do what they intend to do, thus decreasing profitability
I have little knowledge of the investment that this would cost in time, money, code. Considering that name creation information would have to be crossed between the servers along with other issues like help, rookie, and NooB Corp chat crossover. Eliminating the connection between trial accounts and those pilots that are willing to help them would be detrimental to game growth, but in the current set up, the rookie channels are at the least torturous and helping in the rookie channel (which I do often) is like sliding down a slide of razor blades into a pool of alcohol. So at this point I would say that the rookie channels are soemwhat broken when it comes to spam from isk sellers and disgrunteled NooB's.
This would definately eliminate the problem of alt accounts on the server population. Maybe taking out what I would estimate,(this is a total guess) 5-10% of the current active accounts. Effectively eliminating all isk seller advertising from the main server, since the isk sellers would be unwilling to risk perma ban for advertising.
This with the above ideas could clear alot of problems[/quot
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Angelus X
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.23 20:41:00 -
[314]
Nothing but words, if CCP really were determined to do something about ISK selling we would see the results, not empty claims about having done 'this' or 'that'. Everyone in 0.0 knows the areas of names of the local 0.0 cloaking raven isk farmers, with the names consisting of random garbled numbers, in NPC corps, who often speak poor english or chinese in local, and rat 20+ hours a day.
Oh, and don't get me started on macro miners, how hard can it be to track a load of ISK from the farmer/macro miner to the seller? hmm ? ---
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2008.01.23 23:15:00 -
[315]
The GTC program and "isk selling" are not the same kind of economic activity and, in my opinion, do not have the same type of effect on the economy.
They are totally the reverse of each other, actually. In one case isk is (indirectly) exchanged for cash, in the other, cash is exchanged for isk. In the first, excess isk is converted into play time, and in the second money is used to obtain additional isk. It is only the second use case that clearly and directly supports "isk farming" in order to convert that isk into cash. It is only the second activity that places significant in game pressure on obtaining (new, additional) isk to the exclusion of all other activity.
My POV,
Gort
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2008.01.23 23:28:00 -
[316]
Let me put it more bluntly.
GTC = RL money is put into Eve universe, and goes rather directly to the continuation of this wonderful experience.
Isk Selling = RL money is taken out from the game universe (from Eve players) and deposited into the accounts of third world sweatshop owners.
Where do you prefer your money go?
G
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Balthasar Moreq
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Posted - 2008.01.24 14:12:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Gort Let me put it more bluntly.
GTC = RL money is put into Eve universe, and goes rather directly to the continuation of this wonderful experience.
Isk Selling = RL money is taken out from the game universe (from Eve players) and deposited into the accounts of third world sweatshop owners.
Where do you prefer your money go?
G
This. |
Menstrual Mistake
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Posted - 2008.01.24 14:27:00 -
[318]
If a person chooses to buy ISK why not make it to where they buy it from CCP, same concept as the GTC's. It should be limited to x amount per month, per character. Face it people are going to buy ISK in hopes they are not caught. CCP may as well capitalize on it.
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Kahamala Tschan
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Posted - 2008.01.26 13:04:00 -
[319]
If CCP actually wanted to stop isk selling, they would not allow GTC for isk sales either.
It's probably just a matter of time until it's possible to buy stuff ingame for rl cash. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.02 04:45:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 02/02/2008 04:45:36 Here's how I see the difference between GTC sales and isk for cash. In the former case, you first convert those dollars to GTCs. This can't be reversed. What that means is that no one is going to start a real life business based on buying GTCs because there's no way to pull back real money from that unless you start selling something, be it isk or GTCs for cash.
My take is that isk for cash is open-ended and can fund a huge amount of isk farming. But farming for GTCs, even assuming those GTCs are then sold for cash (I don't know enough to say what you can do with GTCs), just doesn't have the same payoff. My problem with isk farming is that it dilutes a lot of traditional routes to gathering isk. I'm trying to make isk, but competing with someone who's turned it into a job. Ick.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:21:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Angelus X Nothing but words, if CCP really were determined to do something about ISK selling we would see the results, not empty claims about having done 'this' or 'that'. Everyone in 0.0 knows the areas of names of the local 0.0 cloaking raven isk farmers, with the names consisting of random garbled numbers, in NPC corps, who often speak poor english or chinese in local, and rat 20+ hours a day.
Oh, and don't get me started on macro miners, how hard can it be to track a load of ISK from the farmer/macro miner to the seller? hmm ?
You, my bobbit friend, can join me for a brew anytime.
See, I like the way they deal with gold farmers in LOTRO. Sure, you get spammed in Bree but it's easy to block and getting infrequent because you can set 'anonymous' and turbine bans their asses in moments. Second, when you report a farmer.. and I have.. he's gone... Like, forever. It costs them for a NEW KEY when they lose an account! thats $20 down the tube, AND they have to power level another char just so they can go sit on that spot in Misty Mountains to farm that ore... or sit in a high level area as a lvl10 and get power leveled by a high level farmer.. which they apparently catch on a regular basis. (seen it)
Farmers are just as easy to spot, they get banned fairly quickly, it costs them for a new key every account they lose, so who wins? Turbine wins, players win.
Also, the economy is much better... and gold is getting expensive. This is a sign that they have this under control, so now as a player I have peace of mind and someone is not cheating. They track in-game money and they do it well. I know of 2 kinmates that were banned forever within minutes of receiving gold from a gold seller.
Eve would be a much better place if they payed some attention to farmers. It's obvious enough, if they actually took time to look. It is also obvious to me that they are more interested in making a buck than keeping happy players.
Ban GTC sales for isk, and get rid of isk sellers by permabanning isk buyers.
So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
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Shulzidar
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Posted - 2008.02.19 12:22:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Shulzidar on 19/02/2008 12:25:13 Just recently returned to this game... During this years I have grown used to this money-seller leechers and I have seen the different strategies companies use and I would like to share my views about the solutions the Blog highlights. (GTC is CCP legal system, ISKS are the black-market sellers).
A lot of ppl is complaining about GTC, but I think most are not aware of the advantages this system have:
- It targets SPECIFICALLY the population WILLING to pay the ISKS. Quoting "When there is demand... There will be offer". This undoubtly removes ISKS custommers, as the perspective of a safe method to boost money income is very attractive to those players.
- It allows CCP to control the impact on their economy of the injected RL money. Meaning that if they perceive any unbalance they can limit/throttle down the inflation rate. One of the biggest dangers of ISKS is that they are hard to track, so you can never be sure on the effects of their actions in the economy.
- The fact that the GTC sells are mainly auctions allow for a self-regulating mechanism that will not even need CCP intervention. The players will force the ISKS to reduce their rates because of the added security GTC transactions involve. This effect is aimed directly to cut-off ISKS earnings.
- The "equal terms" advocates should think is that the "lazy" player may not be familiar enough with the game mechanics to put that cash efficiently in 100% competitive status. On an open PvP system, most of this guys will be lucrative targets for the PvP experts around there. Also, this mechanism, will help PvP experts with a bad-luck streak to recover faster from the losses, keeping the PvP conflicts fueled for longer periods.
- Returning to RL world, the extra income CCP is receiving will make this game last longer and with better quality. ISKS leechers increase the costs of running a MMO because of support overload, extra GMs, counter-cheating meassures development, etc, etc.
So I hope you realize that ISKS are a reality and that just punitive mechanisms are not enough... CCP has added another layer of defense by luring their custommers away.
Maybe the original Blog failed to highlight this fact, but the MOST damaging effect PERCEIVED by the NON-ISKS custommers is the monopolyzing strategies this leechers use... The blueprint example is quite good, but I'm sure there are a LOT more personal experiences players can share that may make you change your mind and see GTC as another ISKS killer tool.
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HMIC
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Posted - 2008.03.09 16:15:00 -
[323]
I just signed up to EVE, love it. After reading this tread I can see I am trully f*&ked. Why would I pay a monthly fee to play online, only to find out the entire Game is effectively HACKED. Who in the hell is running this company? Jesus.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari Viper Intel Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.10 13:19:00 -
[324]
Originally by: HMIC I just signed up to EVE, love it. After reading this tread I can see I am trully f*&ked. Why would I pay a monthly fee to play online, only to find out the entire Game is effectively HACKED. Who in the hell is running this company? Jesus.
Been that way a long time now. It used to be possible, and cheap to suicide their ice macros in empire ice fields... now it is twice as expensive making it a deterrent for smaller anti-farmer operations. Why? CCP gave concord a boost to help out the crying isk farmers.. and cry they did.
You can no longer scan out secure cans or wrecks to hunt their can farms or wrecks to locate them easier. This was a stealth nerf. It was not in any patch notes and when reported as a bug by several players it turned into a feature because they could not face the music and admit they are helping farmers hide their assets in their 0.0 can farms.
For that matter this also killed people that salvage things. Now they cannot scan for cans or wrecks in deep space so they just sit out there and nobody knows they are out there.
Corporations and alliances are also allowed to take their dirty isk by renting space to farmers without any problem whatsoever. For example, impure (the Pure. renters alliance) has at least 2 corps in it that are huge isk farmer groups out in the drone regions.
Pure. gets its xxxx million or billion a month and farmers get more isk to sell, probably to hit the pockets of leadership.
I was in a system in caldari space yesterday and watched like 30 CNRs undock from a caldari navy station and warp into random directions to farm missions. I went 1 system over and saw the same thing. between the 2 systems there were probably 150 people in them as I brought another character over to watch the second system and noted out of an average of 150 people, 60 or so if them were mission farmers. Lots of them had the classic 1 missile for 1 billion isk contracts.
Tin foil: Perhaps a year old CNR farmer wanted to buy 1 scourge heavy missile for 500 milion isk because he needed ammo.... but they do it more than once! So, players that have been farming for a year or longer with like 5.2 security statuses can make mistakes but ... not buying that one :roll:]
If you like eve, hunt farmers... eve tho this next patch will most likely contain some farmer boosting properties.. they all do.
So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
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Loyal Servant
Caldari Viper Intel Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.10 13:23:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Shosuro Ryoko Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
It does. They make about the cost of a GTC in under 12 hours per account. It makes the next 89.5 days essentially free. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
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Bohoba
Caldari dragons nest imPure.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 20:39:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Andargor theWise Damn, I was going to say "what about GTCs", but everyone has already...
Allow the purchase of GTCs for ISK, so that those who don't have any other purchase options can play. But do not allow the selling of GTCs between players. You then avoid the Cash -> GTC -> ISK cycle.
I was going to say remove GTC's alltogether that will drop a lot of trash eve has
but the above should work also heck make it an ingame item :) and let it follow supply and demand going up and down like any item would
Windows VistaÖ Ultimate x64-based PC Gigabyte X38-DQ6 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Extreme CPU Q6850 Memory 4,093.69 MB 2X Crossfire ASUS EAH3870/G/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 3870 512MB
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Corvax Tatresi
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:12:00 -
[327]
Put a fine in the eula of $1000 for people that are caught selling isk. Remove there money and ban account till price is paid.
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marek golec
Galactic Extensive Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:18:00 -
[328]
How can I enter the blueprint lottery?
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Ace Marklan
The Drekla Consortium VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.16 06:39:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Cergorach An interesting article and quite insightful. Thanks!
I wonder though, if the GTC sales that are allowed don't bring the same kind of problems with it. You can buy the time code and sell it in eve for isk, while a bit more work to get large amounts of isk, i still think that it's possible to buy success in eve with RL cash. While it's very nice from the perspective of CCP (get the money instead of the isk farmers), some of the points made sound hollow (or at least incomplete). It's understandable that such a service is wanted by CCP and a large portion of the veteran players, it's just a bit strange that this aspect of converting $$$ into isk is left untouched...
ps. not meant as an attack.
I completely advocate ISK trading with GTCs for RL money for several reasons.
1. It allows players like myself who have a family and job, and just can't put in the time like those with less responsibilities.
2. From CCPs point of view, this only adds to it's subscription base. So why not advocate it. Also mmorpg's will always have farmers, so CCP is a forward thinking company that will protect it's customers by offering GTC for ISK in a secure way.
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Ohmebius
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.03.17 01:35:00 -
[330]
JUST PERM BAN ANYONE INVOLVED! the tracking of is not a huge challenge, find a isk seller, trave transactions/interactions and perm ban. that would certainly put people of them
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Davis Valdran
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Posted - 2008.03.22 04:05:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Davis Valdran on 22/03/2008 04:14:42 Edited by: Davis Valdran on 22/03/2008 04:07:26 Edited by: Davis Valdran on 22/03/2008 04:06:34 Here I go again , just back and quite a few posts I know :)
Anyway I played eve alot a while back and ISK buying was rife , I have also seen it ruin other games. I also say in chat until Im blue in the face about people buying ISK inflating the ecconomy, It really annoys me that I also just play MMOS with 1 account building a character, doing things the hard way and the more people buy isk the more unatainable things become since money loses its value being in unatural abundance. Heres the thing though its all to do with the mentality "Im alright Jack" screw the rest. On top of that when things do inflate player simply wont want to get the unrealistic amounts of commoditys to trade to buy grossly overpriced stuff so that then causes an influx of bots to your game. I have seen this happen so many times! (In the end a bot driven ecconomy or an ecconomy driven solely by those who can afford 2 and 3 accounts so they can skill up all indutrial skills while concentrating on combat and mining on other chars, this also inflates things if you want to be 100% honest about it.
Finally its great to see a GM bringing this issue up and highlighting the issue! Really appreciate that but CCP need to clamp down on isk buyers if you are truely serious about a properly done ecconomy. I have seen rife isk buying ruining a game but I have also seen the odd game take them on head on and start banning them left right and ceneter - aided by special systems to flag potential isk exploiters. Also as mentioned I played Eve 1 year or so ago and do you realise at that time isk buying was bad and I even thought it was legal!(I never bought any but so many people were doing it and no in game chat complaints that I thought it was kinda silently accepted as okay by CCP) Since there was regular talk of it many times with no intervention. Really appreciate you post :) but to tackle it seriously you need to start culling illegal isk buying sooner rather than later and aggressivly.
Wish you good luck with that! Im sick of starting in games that have a really cool ecconomy then the little naffs come on buy gazillions of isks then next week Im paying 50*markup for an item. (Bye bye all players who just play on one account). With the status quo though if there is going to be some form of rl cash to eve isk which will mean more RL money gaurentees more success as opposed to skill what you could do to counter that a little is well you know how a single account shows 2 character slots but you can only train one skill between the two? Make it so that the skills are independant. It works in every other decent MMO dont see why in this day and age we still have that old fashoined way of doing it)
I love eve irrespective of that and I know my comments will go down like a lead balloon but as a single account holder and someone who feels a big brunt of isk sellers I think Im at least fractionally entitled to a say :) , sure everyone wont agree this is just my view but its good your now openly talking about isk sales
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Belmarduk
de Prieure
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Posted - 2008.03.22 21:16:00 -
[332]
I think GTC Trade is fine - CCP can keep an eye on the situation and counteract if necessary (Adjust npc-prices,make more isk-sinks etc) CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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gordon cain
x13
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:10:00 -
[333]
This is all fine and stuff. But what happens when a GM take money from people that has actually earned it.
Corp m8 just got a visit from a GM who started by taking 3 bil and then transfered 4 bil back to proceed and take 6 bil.
WTF is going on here.
He has nothing to hide and will show all the logs and stuff.
And how do they act after that. They ban him for 24hours.
What was the mail to the senior GM's or that investigation thingy that was going on.
Gordon Cain
Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. |
Lady Valory
Caldari Strike Force Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:00:00 -
[334]
This is very important and crucial!
If you could make it so we could probe out giant secure cans, we could find them in 0.0 and pop them.
Farmers have 50 or more of these anchored all together in little clusters in the drone regions.
Also it would show some credibility from CCP in the war against the isk farmers.
Next, why can a pos be spotted so easily but 50 cans in a cluster can even?
Please reply back!
Signed, a loyal CCP customer
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Hokage Jiraiya
MyPartyBase
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Posted - 2008.04.04 12:23:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Hokage Jiraiya on 04/04/2008 12:31:00 ( It is easy to blame someone but it is even easrier to blame someone else )
Sorry I have to say this but what a load of bolloks.....
GTC for ISK has almost the same amount of negative impact on the ingame economy if not the same impact. The only different is CCP earns from the GTC sales where as 3rd party selling isk contributes virtually no profit for CCP.
There is but two options (Yes, there are three points listed and I said two, read on to see why) for CCP if CCP really wants to improve the ingame economy.
1. ( Logical approach ) Remove Sales of GTC for isk, thus players have to buy GTC with real life cash and pay for their accounts with real life cash thus CCP profits and the economy will stablize.
2. ( hard but possible ) Removing 3rd party ingame currency sellers from the game ( Yes I understand it is a difficult ) thou if one looks at IGB and their cronies, one will notice that they have in the last year lost access to various game currencies on the part of diligent GMs and players that hunt down ingame curreny farmers and sellers. However then shouldn't CCP also take the above stance? ( See point 1)
3. Simply allow all forms of ingame currency trading, buying and selling since GTC for isk does not counter the so called ingame inflation anyway.
I am and have been a very active gamer in various platforms and games for numberous years and I have had the misery of working in a gaming company, I understand how hard and nerve racking it can get :) but the morality behind this article is just hypocritical.
Sorry if my two cents hurts anyones feeling.
Good day.
On a lighter note :) If one travels thru Metropolis one can see that the same bunch of macro mission haulers have been doing the same thing for almost a year, numberous complains have been lodged and they are still there. First they travelled between Taff and Amo, now they Travel between Evati/Anher and Ingunn.... macro haulers = good standings = cheap chars for sale = isk buying/gtc for isk = flooding of isk = market inflation all over again.
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Spurty
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.07 12:53:00 -
[336]
In a World where currency is 'magicked' into existence, anyone can learn the skills to mine and build ships and BPOs get seeded, rats drop loot and can be salvaged, its hard to see 'anyway' to affect a market all that much.
If 'player A' buys up a hundred bazillion isk, does the isk in my wallet vanish? When they have a hundred bazillion isk in their wallet and I pop a rat, do I not get a bounty as the bank ran out of isk? I think not.
Make isk a commodity, give it some finite quantity, halt the magic of it appearing, then worry about people 'buying' isk. The isk value for GTCs are the only thing that is affected and I would prefer to be safe than sorry, so would always chose to sell a GTC over buying isk from players named 'asdfghjk1234'
If you're worried that these people will buy every item on a market, I call BS.
If you want to be worry warts, think about the existence of T2 BPOs. Now think about the owners of those BPOs leaving the game and not selling their 'stuff' when they go. Thats way more scary and already taken care of with 'invention'. When this happens and I'm sure it will, this will ramp the price of T2 gear up for sure.
Anyone wanna buy some Polycarbons ? ;-) -- Two cannibals eating a clown. One says to the other "Does this taste funny to you?" |
Vespa Orebane
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:25:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Vespa Orebane on 08/04/2008 23:33:04 Could a mod please explain the difference between GTC trading for ISK and buying isk from a third party?
Oh that's right... Buying form a third prty means CCP misses out on the real life $$$
I think you also forgot to mention that this policy is also being retrospectively applied! what a fine case of double standards...
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Ithnolin
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Posted - 2008.04.10 02:01:00 -
[338]
I really honestly do not understand why people think buying isk for RL money is so unfair. The game is unfair. I am a father of three and have a more than full time job (I am active duty military). I get to play maybe, at most, 20 hours a week. Thats 20 hours total in a week to make money, while I keep learning skills and now need skillbooks that cost 50+ million isk each. How can I compete with the 19 year old college kid living in mom's basement running three accounts at the same time that can play 60+ hours a week.
Seems unfair to me. Maybe CCP should only allow an account to be actively played for at most 40 hours a week. Sure would cut down on what the macrominers can do. Then it really would be a "level playing field" in game instead of out of game. Those kinds of arguements are just undefensible. So, I may be richer than the 19 year old but he can make 100 times the isk that I can in a week because he has more TIME. It would seem to me that money is not power in Eve, TIME is power. The more time you can play the more isk you can make and therefore the more power you can have. You can't make a lot of money without spending a lot of time playing.
This is all about CCP not making money from the sale of isk. In the MMO "Second Life" you can buy ingame money for real money at any moment and the game company gets all. You will never ever see second life money for sale online because of that. They have no macrofarmers because of that. They just have a lot of happy players that can spend their time playing the game having fun instead of playing the game to have enough money to have fun later.
Ithnolin
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Lordus Mark
Amarr RDK Trusting Holders
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Posted - 2008.04.10 08:43:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Selzer
Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in.
2) With ISK selling you can cash out your in game assets for RL currency.
If you can "cash out" you can move/launder money internatinally. Many governments don't like this and WILL squash CCP if they let this go on.
Dal
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
CCP obviously doesn't like people buying their way ahead in the game (either that or the Dev Blog is lying), so the only reason I can see that they would allow GTC sales is because it is a revenue source for them.
If it was that problem only, they could allow isk sales the same way they do to char transfers.
********************************** RDK Trusting Holders Need a job done? Quietly? Have a word with us.
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Bearrock
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Posted - 2008.04.11 06:30:00 -
[340]
I have an idea which might work...Have isk sellers in eve but make it a skill which only allows you a certian amount of isk that can be sold and a certian range that you can operate. Now you will get the isk from ccp and there will be an alloted amount for distribution. Prices will be dictated by ccp without question. And your account will be audited frequently. The rulez will be set by ccp. That way ccp can close down isk sellers and keep an eye on their own sellers for underhanded dealings Da Bear
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Agent Li
Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.04.11 14:02:00 -
[341]
I know I'm not seeing as much spam in local from isk sellers as I used to - what I'd like to know is what the totals are on "how much isk removed this month" and "how many isk farmer accounts removed" and "how many people caught selling isk" and "how many caught buying isk".
I think it would also be a good idea to set people to -10 security status along with taking the isk out of their wallets. That way, even if they have enough isk to keep playing, they get WTFPWNED if they try to go back into Empire (after all, they ARE outlaws...) ------------------
Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire. |
Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 23:50:00 -
[342]
Let's look at the GM Guard manifesto point by point...
1. Macromining. Sure unlimited macromining is bad for the game. But that has nothing to do with RMT. Besides, CCP could stop macromining relatively easily -- they can be recognized by the software much more reliably than by players. The question is: why doesn't CCP stop them? Because cash cows are necessary to support GTC sales.
[BTW, CCP is inconsistent about this. GM Guard says macromining reduces prices so mining is unprofitable. Another GM says it causes inflation. It doesn't matter who is right. RMT itself has no effect on the game economics because it is a transfer payment *after* the ISK is farmed. Claiming RMT causes economic problems in the game is hogwash. CCP is being disingenuous to piggyback it on macromining to imply RMT is bad. Macromining is an entirely separate game problem that flourishes without RMT.]
2. Spamming. Very annoying; if I were buying ISK I would never buy it from a spammer. But CCP could stop spamming very easily. More to the point, it is irrelevant. Local gets spammed by contract sellers and recruiters too. Does that make contracts and recruiting bad? IOW, it is spamming that is annoying, not the spam subject matter.
3. Account hacking. The same caveat emptor applies here that applies to all phishing in or out of EVE. Scams in EVE are common and players bait people into losec traps all the time with CCP sanctioning. Why is RM different than weeks or months of game effort being lost? The RM is in CCP's wallet.
4. Evil conglomerates. Greed is greed and some players are going to abuse the system to do that sort of stuff without RMT. Corps don't already abuse ISK cash cows? Get real. The point is the game mechanics allow it, not RMT. Again, CCP is piggybacking RMT on an existing game mechanics problem to infer RMT is bad.
5. Customer support suffers. That I buy, but mainly because the software tools aren't in place to deal with it. CCP needs to devote some resources to this just like other playability issues.
Unstated. The real reason for being against RMT is to preserve GTC revenue by eliminating competition. CCP gets extra revenue from GTCs because players who could not afford can play more can do so (e.g., multiple accounts). So CCP makes war on ISK buyers but not on the cash cows that enable GTCs.
Also unstated. Eliminate the cash cows in the game and RMT becomes a background issue because the reduced volume cannot support the complex infrastructure required for RMT.
Also unstated. The real abuse problem is RMT is that players can buy their way into power positions. Despite CCP's horror stories, that sort of thing has to be very rare. What sort of nutcase is going to spend $1000s in RM to play a MMORPG better? As GM guard says, most of the RMT industry is based on small position players (think: noob). And the major driver for that is that the gap between a noob position and an Elder Statesman position is enormous -- much, much greater than when EVE was first launchaed. Fix that imbalance along with the cash cows and RMT goes away.
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manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:50:00 -
[343]
I for one agree with GM guard. He states it very well. Honestly this idea that they are wanting all of our money...liked SOE... is ludicrous.
They tried to do a nice thing allowing people to play (basically free with GTC).
This system was/is abused.
Many people unknowingly are caught in scams as they unknowingly think that $ is the answer. $ helps but is not the answer. I do not have Billions of ISK, I only recently have struggled to break 100M.
I borrowed a raven spent three days ratting in 0.0 and made 120M from ratting alone ( no salvaging no looting simply in bounties). I asked how I could make a little $, and hence, the solution presented itself.
Any form of buying ISK is sketchy at best.(IMO)
Originally by: GM Guard Edited by: GM Guard on 28/02/2007 09:28:28 Hi and sorry for my late appearance in this thread.
Many of you have rightfully pointed out that by allowing the sale of game time codes for ISK, we are in essence allowing a form of real money trading. Our goal was of course never to support any form of RMT and the only reason we allow this form of business with it's inevitable side effects is because we wanted to give players a chance to pay for their subscriptions with isk and thereby in essence making some other EVE player pay their subscription cost for them. We allowed this in order to allow more players to play. We want more people playing EVE. In fact we want all people to play EVE! That is the only gain we saw by allowing this and the only reason why we have stuck to it despite the myriad of problems we have had to deal with because of it (GTC scam cases make me weep in my bed at night).
It is true that this opened a loophole for a certain form of RMT but that business is small and measly in comparison to the all consuming monster that is the ISK selling business(TM). One player on this thread rightfully pointed out that RMT through GTCs is limited in the sense that there is a fixed number of game time codes in circulation at any time. That is a very good point and explains the vast size difference between the GTC for ISK business and the ISK for $ business. Also, with the new secure game time code system, the business of GTCs for isk will become even more limited as a money making tool than before.
Some call us hypocritical for allowing one thing and banning the other while preaching purity and good virtues. I can understand that point of view in part, especially if people also believe that we are allowing GTC selling for isk to make tons of cash as isk sellers and that we just want to push the other isk selling gangs off the market so we can make even more cash! As I hope most of you will understand that is not the case. We have only one goal and that goal is to watch EVE grow and prosper. We truly want the ISK selling business with all it's devilry and witchcraft out of the game and we will continue to work towards that goal. The purpose of this blog was mainly to point out the downsides of the ISK selling business and the negative effects it undeniably has on the Eve world. Most of you never directly witness these negative effects so I wanted to relate them to you to give you perspective. Every day we in Customer support have to deal with several players who have bought isk in good faith because they truly didn't know it was against the rules, only to receive isk straight from a hacked account that has been phished by agents of one of the ISK selling websites. We hate seeing people in trouble and we want to be able to provide the best service possible. We also want players to know the potential consequences of dealing with these people and to know what they are supporting by doing so.
Best regards Senior GM Guard EVE Customer Support.
Can you honestly think that buying any form of ISK is acceptable..flame all you want but it is not...the exception...the purpose it was intended for simple as that
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NupetietVer
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Posted - 2008.04.14 18:03:00 -
[344]
EVE ISK Site: http://www.withgames.com/ DNS BackTracking: http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=withgames.com&prog_id=godaddy
Registrant: withgames
huan cheng dong lu 9 # shi yun zhan suzhou, 234000 China
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) Domain Name: WITHGAMES.COM Created on: 15-Jan-06 Expires on: 15-Jan-10 Last Updated on: 07-Nov-07
Administrative Contact: chen, xiu wu [email protected] huan cheng dong lu 9 # shi yun zhan suzhou, 234000 China 865573081127 Fax -- 865573081127
Technical Contact: Manager, Domain [email protected] 2800 28th Street Suite 205 Santa Monica, California 90405 United States +1.8885114678 Fax -- +1.3103141610
Domain servers in listed order: NS55.DOMAINCONTROL.COM NS56.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
? What is CCP going to do? Legally shut them down or force them to give them all their logs, and punish Isk buyers?
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Kung Lek
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Posted - 2008.04.16 19:50:00 -
[345]
CCP should allow it to be sold as a commodity in game. Just cut through the crap and get straight to it instead of the muddled waffley stuff that is the selling of time codes etc etc.
If it was sold in game, then there wouldn't be a need to worry about the outside activity.
When ccp wants to find out who is doing what, they simply look at a players logs and transactions, sort it by money gained and money lost and they can see the anomolies of large deposits or exchanges.
Now, I have no idea why they would restrict stuff based on that as it now raises a problem of, I've been playing for a year and now my broter plays and I want to give him 200 million of my isk. Why is that a problem.
what about corporate sponsorship where people give all their ore to th corporation in exchange for a 40 million isk rigged miner?
the fault is with CCP in my opinion.
sell it in game as a commodity or you will never solve the problem and yiou will only bring further grief to gamers.
the point about time is very important. It takes a long time, and so, mmos in general seem to appeal to college kids and teh unemployed with internet connections. These folks seem to go the farthest in the game as opposed to those people who just wanna have some fun in space. |
Hugo Din
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Posted - 2008.04.17 12:14:00 -
[346]
i have to say i'm against isk selling and buying, but i have 3 accounts with this game and my goal is to earn enough isk each month to be able to enjoy the game and have enough to buy gtc cards for my 3 characters so making the game pay for itself. so i'm all for the sale of gtc's to continue. |
Ore Not
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Posted - 2008.04.17 20:21:00 -
[347]
But see, Hugo, you are the exact reason why CCP's arguements don't hold up. The problem is not about how much isk is in the game economy, the problem is how much time is spent playing. You have three characters that you are able to play enough that you can earn at least 300mil isk a month to pay for your GTCs. I can barely make 100mil in a month with 2 characters, and that is with my wife ****in and moanin that I am spending too much time playing video games.
The whole arguement that if I buy 10 billion isk for RM, I will automatically become some supreme power in the EVEverse is rediculous. What is the avereage character age in the game? My oldest character is just over 2 years old. I could go and buy me 10 titans, but they arent gonna do me any good because I can't fly them. I could go and by 100 fully fitted Tier 3 battleships, which I can fly, but to what point? So I can zerg a station with BSs until I finally pop it? Why would I spend $1000s to buy battleships to get them popped just so I can blow up someone's station? Besides how long am I going to have to wait to have them all built? And how long is it going to take to mine all the minerals? And how long is it going to take to collect all the additional components needed? It's not about money, it's about time. Those that have it can have all the money they want with invention and RPs and missions and mining and so on. Those without time get left with the leavings.
Like it has been said several times before. A person is going to buy isk to help get them over that little hill so they don't have to just grind. The alliance my corp is in has more than enough money to buy ships, the problem is that they can't get enough ore to do it. There is isk just sitting there in the wallet waiting to be used that can't be because they need ore not money. So to argue that some alliance is going to use RM to finance a war is bogus because, a. most alliances already have money, and b. because most alliances need ore and materials more than they need money.
Or what about the person that makes that bonehead accident and targets the wrong ship before sic'ing your drones and Concord comes to stick it up your tailpipe? I've lost months of earnings to that exact accident and damn near quit the game because of it. But I fortunately have a very nice guild and stuck to it and I am now right back where I was months ago. My skills have progressed but my wallet hasn't. Now I am stuck again. I can't learn skills any faster than I am now (well yes, +5 implants would help but really, how much faster vs +3's or 4's which are easy to afford) so no matter how rich I am I can only use certain ships and mods. But it is very easy for me to get to the point where I can fly a BS but not be able to afford one let alone fit it.
I propose a test, for one or two months only with limits. Have an in game interface, say in a station only, where I can purchase incraments of isk directly from CCP/Eve Central Bank, for RM via CC, Paypal, or whatever. Limit it to a maximum amount of isk per account, not character and limit it to non-trial accounts only. You can use the current going rate of $15 for 110mil isk or whatever it is. Also allow people in the same interface, to use isk to purchase Game time. At the end of the test calculate how much was purchased for RM and how much was spent for GT. I bet that the difference is not all that lopsided.
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Cigano
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Posted - 2008.04.26 10:13:00 -
[348]
I must agree with Ore Not, all this question is about playing time, the game is very time consuming to get isk for the average and new players, and CCP should make a way to revise this. Other idea was to bill the accounts for the time played in addition to a max time for day to play (let say 12H) if one play more he must pay for it, just like a phone bill. And how about purchasing items out of game for RM is that forbiden to?...
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Tara Nighthawk
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Posted - 2008.05.25 11:21:00 -
[349]
I don't see there is any argument about this.
EVE is a game. You play the game and you get the rewards in the game for doing so - skills, ISK, ships, whatever. If you are able to play for 10 hours a week, it takes longer to get to whatever aim you have in the game than those who play 50 or more hours. That is unfortunate, but is just the same as with anything else. The more you play, the quicker you level up - or gain skills or money, depending upon which game you are playing.
Gaining any kind of in-game reward in return for RL money is totally wrong IMHO. What is the point? You want to become a level 70 in WOW with millions in cash - so you respond to one of those annoying spam messages and buy an upgrade for real cash. That is no different than hacking the game to improve your character - i.e. it is cheating the game in one sense or another. What does it achieve? You did not spend the time and effort to gain that high level - you just bought it. Big deal
The only exception is if you pay for more than one account. I do not see anything wrong with that - as you are still putting in real time and effort - just on several accounts simultaneously. Each character still has to do the training and earn the ISK - in real time. It is just like playing for more hours per week - you just have more than one character doing so simultaneously. You still have to do the training in real time and the money still has to be earned in actual game play by one or other character.
However, if no method of using real money to buy in game resources is allowed - can we please get rid of those damned bots? They ruin the use of the chat channels - especially the rookie channel where people need help and then a bot spams the channel and nobody sees the question or its answer.
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Prisoner 257
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:15:00 -
[350]
I don't agree with isk purchasing or gold purchasing in general.
GTC for isk is a grey area for me so I wont touch that subject other then to say that I agree that isk buying isn't any more of an economy driving issue then GTC sales are.
BUT, In a different MMO, I heard the best explanation I have ever heard for why one guy bought gold.
He makes $30USD(forget exact amount) p/hr at work. It would take him longer then one hour to earn the equivalent amount of gold that he could buy by simply working one extra hour at his job per day or week. I honestly couldn't find a flaw in that argument.
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RedeyeAce
Demogorgon's Army
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Posted - 2008.06.13 09:55:00 -
[351]
Originally by: GM Nova Let's get real here people. There is a fundemental misunderstanding as to the motivation behind CCPs decision to allow and support GTCs for isk.
We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited. We want to allow them a chance to enjoy EVE. If there are players who have the means and are willing to pay for their subscription in exchange for isk, we fully support that.
I havent read every single post.. i have read the dev's responses
Not a rant or whine post, My comments arepurely to point out some fundamentals of GTC sales.
Firstly i disagree witht the notion of selling GTC's to allow a wider audience to play the game, the notion of countries / players that cant play by normal payment methods and therefore allowing the purchase of GTC's is extremely flawed imho as how can the player obtain the isk in the first place if they cannot pay to play????
lets look at who benefits from the GTC option to play.
Older players and people who earn a lot of isk, these guys can play for free is it balanced.. yes as they also loose in game isk to pay.
now the more serious one
Macrominers.. Obviously they can Macromine for free using GTC's as they are only ingame to make isk. More to the point.. balance.. is this balanced out.. NO
Effectively by the use of GTC's Macrominers are able to make RL Money for absolutely free with no penalties.
So I believe that CCP have unwittingly incresed the macrominer base as there is a real reason to Macromine, on the grounds it can be done for free, only costing RL time ( of which can be crappy computers running bots) to produce RL cash.
Is this an issue.. YES |
Gemberkoekje
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.06.17 10:52:00 -
[352]
Buying ISK: Totally agree
Buying GTC: Let's split it to INGAME GTC's, which can ONLY be traded for ISKs, and OUT OF GAME GTC's which can only be bought for cold hard cash.
Problem solved, everybody happy
Also, is it that hard to protect EVE against macro miners?
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Invalided
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Posted - 2008.06.18 11:21:00 -
[353]
Edited by: Invalided on 18/06/2008 11:21:35 Indeed, ISK buying and selling is an unfortunate business, hope you lot at CCP carry on doing a good job.
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Archonax
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:31:00 -
[354]
For those that are "ok" with this stance, or think CCP is doing something great, I say "WAKE UP"!
GM Guard goes into lengthy detail of why RMT is bad for the economy; especially the part about "money is power in EVE". They don't seem to mind RMT, and in fact, have set up a spot in the forums for it, so long as the RM part of the RMT goes into their pockets.
It's not legit to buy ISK from a "farmer", but it is legit to, in effect, buy it from CCP? I honestly don't understand this; nevermind, I do. It's greed, pure and simple. The same reason they changed the timecards, charging more money for less time. They figured out what a big portion of users use ISK to buy timecards, and they decided they could milk that cow for all it was worth.
Please, CCP, don't post a blog about the evils of RMT if you are going to turn around and provide it yourself; it reduces your credibility and respect within the community.
Stop all RMT, or stop talking about it. Plain and simple.
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Sophia Marin
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Posted - 2008.06.21 12:30:00 -
[355]
"In a different MMO, I heard the best explanation I have ever heard for why one guy bought gold.
He makes $30USD(forget exact amount) p/hr at work. It would take him longer then one hour to earn the equivalent amount of gold that he could buy by simply working one extra hour at his job per day or week. I honestly couldn't find a flaw in that argument."
And why the selling part get viable?
Put 2 skilled chars mining in 0.0 and say they can make 30 million isk per hour.In 3 hours they make the $15 for the GTC.A lot of jobs in my country(Brazil) dont pay that amount of money in 3 hours of work and the minimum wage pays a little less than $2,50 per hour.And i hear that in China the salaries are even worse.
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muhajai
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:35:00 -
[356]
I frequently read forum's but generaly dont' post. guess you might say i am tired of biting my tongue. I've invested alot of my time in this game and over the last couple of years I have yet too know of anyone buying isk from a 3rd party. Yet I have seen many mega-alliance's support pvp and war's via the GTC system and personaly know of 3 motherships that were funded through the purchase and resale of GTC's. these alliance's and older (serious) players would never consider the purchase of isk via 3rd party sales. no more than i would due too fact we love eve as much as anyone else. And in no way would i want too risk losing or the banning of my accounts. i imagine if anyone would take the chance of purchasing isk from a 3rd party it would be a new player with nothing too lose ( compared too 3yr's worth of training) and they probly do it in order too get that new bc et.. who know's . I've yet too see 3rd party isk selling effect eve (that i know of) yet i have seen alot of space taken/lost do to the isk revenue generated by ccp via GTC sales. which have greatly affected the political enviroment and the market in eve. i think its sad warped twisted and both are driven by greed. i'm against the sale of GTC's by ccp and think their whole perspective is distorted on this matter. and it seems like a buncha double talk too me. if they want players too be able too play eve by paying with isk then accept isk as payment its that simple. i pay for my accounts with real money. i'm not rich and if i was i still wouldnt' give ccp thousands of dollars too buy a few hundred billion. i say invalidate the GTC's quit selling isk. that would be an easy solution too the players buying isk and inflating market blah blah blah..... at least we know who that isk seller is then hunt down and bann.. prosecute whatever you do too the 3rd party's doing the same thing as you. i think it would benefit your credibility considerably if you would start by sweeping you own doorstep.
Muha' |
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