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I-Am-Not An-Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.05.31 19:17:41 -
[1] - Quote
As an Ex-Wormholian i am curious how citadels have effected WH's?
Are there more people moving into WH's now? I imagine its a huge step up from sitting in a pos bubble.. now you can sit in a hanger and spin your ship.
I think most people who were skeptical about sharing POS with others with risk of stuff being stolen would make the plunge now.
What do you all think? |
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
379
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Posted - 2016.05.31 21:10:25 -
[2] - Quote
Its created content, its gotten a fair number of people to stop winning eve.
Your results may vary.
Public Channel | Un.Welcome
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2235
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Posted - 2016.05.31 21:39:11 -
[3] - Quote
Too early to tel
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
512
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Posted - 2016.05.31 22:30:39 -
[4] - Quote
Agree its to early to tell.
Alot of have been blown up in Wormhole space. At-least 79 in May alone. Virtually no citadels have been successfully defended.
Destroying citadels and forcing a fight is fairly fun content for the larger corps (and their friends) who are blowing up the structure and their paltry defense fleets all over wormhole space.
However its typically being done in 30-50 person fleets and going against small - medium corps that can at best field a dozen defense ships. So these smaller corps have no chance of defending their citadel (because the citadel does not provide much of a force multiplier vs subcaps). Even if the small corp does batphone.. the larger entity's are bringing an even bigger force to crush them.
If these small corps are taking the loss on the chin.. saying GF and then going back to their backup POSs then that's generally fine. Alot of w space is predator vs prey. But if the small corps are quitting w space and/or the game.. then that's generally bad.
Unless of course the ones leaving are being replaced by new corps coming in to w space. Only CCP has the stats on that.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where eve is placed... not in cave..." | zoonr-Korsairs | QFT !
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
234
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Posted - 2016.06.01 05:40:56 -
[5] - Quote
It is hard to tell it is a bit soon to have a good picture. Also don't forget the impact of the pve changes on wh-space, most people still have not adjusted to these changes.
I like citadels, it could use some more work though. The citadel 15 minute online time is something to get used to. But it was the same thing with onlining a pos, that also took a while to get the shield up and in that small window it could be killed also. It is just the new thing on the block and because of that people do look out for it. No one will be looking for that online-ing tower because of the many dead sticks. This will diminish when they get more popular.
A bit more chances to the access list is needed. The ability to make hangers for a group of people in a corp would be nice. And not restricted to the current number of corp hangers we can have. So you could create a group for a person containing all his alts. Or in null maybe for sharing stuff for a special intrest group,... . Also the ability to right click a ship in corphanger and make it the active ship would be nice. Or maybe the corp hanger being split into ship and item hangers? Directors accesing personal hangers i would not want, it opens the way to easier awoxing and stealing. Dir's and ceo's being able to see what is in there , that would be bether.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4890
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Posted - 2016.06.01 05:48:24 -
[6] - Quote
They work surprisingly well for a new feature.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Eikin Skjald
Ars Venandi Hole Control
7
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Posted - 2016.06.01 07:42:35 -
[7] - Quote
Most of the Citas were shot while onlining and not in their Timer. You can't tell that they work well, when they even didn't start to work.
But they create content. |
Pinkylein
Rolling Static Sleeping Dragons
15
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Posted - 2016.06.01 11:49:18 -
[8] - Quote
Tbh ... we have a citadel now, but i still prefer living in my POS :D
For alt-usage, citadels don't provide the easy big amount of possible storages like mutliple CHA's, Large Advanced ShipAssemblyArrays to have multiple shared accesses between several accounts. I on my own already use 7 divisions for seperation ammunition, drones, mods, loot and so on. So as long as i cannot guarantee that all toons have every ship for their own with that huge amount of mods, i won't finally move in there. Not to mention PI, manufacturing and such. So even though role management might have been harder (but srsly you could get used to it), the easy share-ability for multiple people in one POS cannot be applied to a citadel, where i could not even assign 10 people, everyone to an own public division. (Or in short words - sharing ships and mods is a pain)
From that aside they are weaker in defending them itself against a possible fleet that is attacking, have the anchoring 15-min window (and ppl coming up with POS's have the same issue while getting anchored - yes it's true, but the POS anchoring takes 1 hour in total ... and either someone is around by chance, or you're almost totally safe.
For their current cost, they are in my opinion, besides they look nice and can rep my mods, not really much of interest.
Besides that, yes they work well, except with bugs that wh-effects don't apply sometimes and you don't see it if you're not checking it everytime you undock.
We will see what the future will bring, but i could imagine less people will get killed by it, by random chance, when you're not activily around and the citadel is not shooting, although someone uncloaked himself by accident next to it and did not realize it.
So in general it feels like more beeing in k-space while beeing docked, then in wh-space when logging into eve. Missing that free feeling when logging into and warping into your place :) (although i got it when i also log off still in the POS) :D |
Duo Roman
Warp Nomads
14
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Posted - 2016.06.01 12:14:20 -
[9] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:The citadel 15 minute online time is something to get used to. But it was the same thing with onlining a pos, that also took a while to get the shield up and in that small window it could be killed also. It is just the new thing on the block and because of that people do look out for it.
The 24hour anchoring time makes it certain that someone will see that citadel anchoring, announce it in Wormhole PVP Channel, form up a team and destroy it. That was not the case when anchoring/onlining a POS.
helana Tsero wrote:1 - Citadels do not provide enough of a force multiplier vs subcaps. So if defenders cant field approximately the same size defense fleet as the attacking fleet they lose the citadel.
They do provide some defense vs subcaps, the problem is that most of them are attacked before even get a chance of being properly fitted. And the 15min of invulnerability described here: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/208289335-Citadel-Deployment-and-Unanchoring is not how it works, as attackers often take much more time to destroy it. Their automatic repair won't kick in. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
374
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Posted - 2016.06.01 17:36:39 -
[10] - Quote
The worst of it so far is the risk averse BS of a bubble wall combined with svipul tackle and a citadel 1200km off of gates in null. Cloud ring and Fade seem to have a plague of that at the moment. With asset safety they are risking very little compared to the navigational hazard that roaming gangs experience. |
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Shik Koken
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2016.06.01 17:41:11 -
[11] - Quote
The personal hanger security for assets is good. I know two former wormholers who have re-sub'ed, because of citadels. They've been in wormhole corps where directors yielded absolute power just by quiet implicit threats to take peoples' stuff - they hated it and left. Now personal assets are untouchable by bad-apple directors, which is good.
More people returning to j-space is a positive!
Hanger functionality however, needs a big revamp to allow immediate access by all the characters owned by a player, and by trusted friends, etc. I recall CCP has promised to implement easy asset sharing in the summer release. Going with citadel mechanics, granular access lists to hangers could be a good possible mechanic to allow POS-like access to belongings.
Wormhole directors currently have a tough time to wrap their minds around the new citadel paradigm and new C5/C6 sites that replaced capital escalations of combat sites. IMHO copying the old mechanical way wormhole corps are run with POSs, and pasting it to citadels just won't work. It's a new paradigm, boys!
Now that capital escalations are gone, there is much less need to set aside assets for corp use. With the summer citadel part 2 release, different people should have access to different corporate assets on a need-only basis.
CCP > to address directors' concern of stranded assets of players who quit Eve, a number of solutions is possible. A timer can be placed on personal hangers, in the same manner there is a timer placed on personal anchored secure containers.
After a long period of account inactivity, the personal hanger could be opened up to director access. Or stranded assets could be dealt with in another manner, e.g. held in suspension, that does not bloat the loss value on the kill-mail but keeps personal assets secure.
There are many possible ways to deal with this issue other than the current directors' stagnant POS mindset of free easy loot. Get creative!
However, if the player is active but has been asked to leave the corp, directors will have to deal with players based on fairness. If not, directors will have to accept a bloated kill-mail. With the citadel's current personal hanger security model, directors will now need to work on communication skills and build trust within the community. THIS IS GOOD! No more 'your stuff is now ours, GTFO' dealings.
CCP, please DO NOT give directors access to members' personal hangers.
TL;DR: Citadels are good for wormhole space, needs improvements promised in CCP's summer release. Directors need to wrap their mind around the new citadel paradigm and work on people skills. |
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion
1655
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Posted - 2016.06.01 18:40:19 -
[12] - Quote
Kynric wrote:The worst of it so far is the risk averse BS of a bubble wall combined with svipul tackle and a citadel 1200km off of gates in null. Cloud ring and Fade seem to have a plague of that at the moment. With asset safety they are risking very little compared to the navigational hazard that roaming gangs experience. Glad we're talking about null in the WH section!!
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
8
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Posted - 2016.06.01 18:45:31 -
[13] - Quote
helana Tsero wrote:Agree its to early to tell.
However its typically being done in 20-50 person fleets and going against small - medium corps that can at best field a dozen defense ships. These smaller corps have no chance of defending their citadel (because the citadel does not provide much of a force multiplier vs subcaps). Even if the small corp does batphone.. the larger entity's are bringing an even bigger force to crush them.
Honestly how is this different from anything that happened before the citadel update? A 20-50 man fleet could also ftw a pos, if it wanted to and a medium corp that could only field a dozen defenders would be screwed regardless. The citadels havent changed that dynamic. Moreover, if ccp balanced a citadel around it being able to beat a 20-50man fleet how would a small gang ever be able to take one out? |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
374
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Posted - 2016.06.01 20:57:47 -
[14] - Quote
Ocean Ormand wrote:helana Tsero wrote:Agree its to early to tell.
However its typically being done in 20-50 person fleets and going against small - medium corps that can at best field a dozen defense ships. These smaller corps have no chance of defending their citadel (because the citadel does not provide much of a force multiplier vs subcaps). Even if the small corp does batphone.. the larger entity's are bringing an even bigger force to crush them.
Honestly how is this different from anything that happened before the citadel update? A 20-50 man fleet could also ftw a pos, if it wanted to and a medium corp that could only field a dozen defenders would be screwed regardless. The citadels havent changed that dynamic. Moreover, if ccp balanced a citadel around it being able to beat a 20-50man fleet how would a small gang ever be able to take one out?
They did change the dynamic. Previously there was no financial incentive as the valuables would almost certainly be destroyed. Now as the structure ages it most likely has more and more value trapped inside of it from departed members of one sort or another. My personal feeling is that evictions are bad for the health of the space. I want to find lots of ships moving about rather than a desolate wasteland. |
Shik Koken
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2016.06.01 23:10:25 -
[15] - Quote
Kynric wrote:
They did change the dynamic. Previously there was no financial incentive to evict as the valuables would almost certainly be destroyed. Now as the structure ages it most likely has more and more value trapped inside of it from departed members of one sort or another and those valuables can be obtained by sieging the structure.
You've assumed too much that CCP won't change asset mechanics of players who've unsubscribed or that most corp directors won't work on mutual satisfying arrangements with "departed members" to take their assets with them.
More player interaction with each other is a positive.
If **** directors act unilaterally against former members, they then deserve high-loss kill-mails IF their citadels get destroyed. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
374
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Posted - 2016.06.02 01:58:33 -
[16] - Quote
Shik Koken wrote:Kynric wrote:
They did change the dynamic. Previously there was no financial incentive to evict as the valuables would almost certainly be destroyed. Now as the structure ages it most likely has more and more value trapped inside of it from departed members of one sort or another and those valuables can be obtained by sieging the structure.
You've assumed too much that CCP won't change asset mechanics of players who've unsubscribed or that most corp directors won't work on mutual satisfying arrangements with "departed members" to take their assets with them. More player interaction with each other is a positive. If **** directors act unilaterally against former members, they then deserve high-loss kill-mails IF their citadels get destroyed.
I was thinking more of pilots that just stop logging in. School, work, girlfriends, other games capture their attention, computers break , whatever rather than people who leave corp over drama. After a year or two tgere is going to be a ton of wealth in their despite our best efforts to ask people to take their stuff out before winning eve. I suppose we could perioddically unanchor and reanchor the structure but tgat sounds awful as well. |
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
14
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Posted - 2016.06.02 02:07:34 -
[17] - Quote
24 hr Anchoring time needs to be reduced drastically. It's not kind to small corps. |
Shadowace Evi
CroGi Gorathian Federation
7
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Posted - 2016.06.02 02:35:28 -
[18] - Quote
Jessie McPewpew wrote:24 hr Anchoring time needs to be reduced drastically. It's not kind to small corps.
They almost have to once poses are removed, otherwise moving into a wh will suck big time. Personally I think med should be 6 hours, larges 12 and XL 24. |
Eikin Skjald
Ars Venandi Hole Control
7
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Posted - 2016.06.02 08:02:27 -
[19] - Quote
Shadowace Evi wrote:Jessie McPewpew wrote:24 hr Anchoring time needs to be reduced drastically. It's not kind to small corps. They almost have to once poses are removed, otherwise moving into a wh will suck big time. Personally I think med should be 6 hours, larges 12 and XL 24.
I think most WH Corps would be fine with it. |
Tim Nering
R3d Fire Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
170
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Posted - 2016.06.02 12:42:55 -
[20] - Quote
far too early. No big evictions have even happened yet. few points tho,
1. getting all the repair features of tethering is amazeballs 2. my life as a ceo is much improved omfg.
1. sharing items is a pain in the ass between accounts. especially for the line member. im fine becuase i can just use corp hangars. but i cant give private tabs to my entire alliance . i simply dont have enough tabs. 2. we need some kind of alliance hangar or something. sharing alliance ships sucks. still need a POS to store them.
Also i want to take a moment to just say a big no to this idea of people werent in wspace because of POSes. If people wanted to play the game in wspace... they played the game in wspace. Unlike k space u lose everything in wormhole citadels when destroyed. It is designed for massive asset loss.
Plus anyway, the only way people will be a factor in wspace is if they are in a corp that is at least 2% relevant. That means we dont just need more bodies in wspace, we need more corporations. Decent corps arent just going to spawn out of people stumbling into wormholes with no experience and setting up structures. Experienced wormholes make corps and have the know how to get it off the ground. We maybe just started this process, it is going to take at least a year for some of these wormhole newbies to be anywhere close to making new corps.
TLDR: +Not enough information yet +we need new faces to learn what they are doing and make corps if we expect this "influx of wormholers" to increase content. |
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Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
41
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Posted - 2016.06.06 06:39:30 -
[21] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Its created content, its gotten a fair number of people to stop winning eve.
Your results may vary.
Lol, what?
Citadel's haven't caused anyone to stop "winning Eve.". If anything, it's created a bigger rift between wh corps and smaller groups/solo players. |
Heiluri
Unpublished Chapter Suddenly Content
12
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Posted - 2016.06.06 20:44:39 -
[22] - Quote
Som Boty wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Its created content, its gotten a fair number of people to stop winning eve.
Your results may vary. Lol, what? Citadel's haven't caused anyone to stop "winning Eve.". If anything, it's created a bigger rift between wh corps and smaller groups/solo players.
"Winning EVE" usually means not being subbed. In this case citadels making some people to start playing again. |
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
42
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Posted - 2016.06.07 03:42:23 -
[23] - Quote
Heiluri wrote:Som Boty wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Its created content, its gotten a fair number of people to stop winning eve.
Your results may vary. Lol, what? Citadel's haven't caused anyone to stop "winning Eve.". If anything, it's created a bigger rift between wh corps and smaller groups/solo players. "Winning EVE" usually means not being subbed. In this case citadels making some people to start playing again.
Ahhh, I get it. Thanks. But that's not especially true for citadel's vs any other major release. Lots of people come back for a short while after a big release. That doesn't mean it was necessarily a good feature, just that marketing did a good job. |
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
383
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Posted - 2016.06.07 05:06:45 -
[24] - Quote
I'm just speaking from my experience, myself and some old space friends all came back to try out the new citadels. Think we'll be staying awhile.
Public Channel | Un.Welcome
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Tatsuj Khan
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2016.06.07 18:28:31 -
[25] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:I'm just speaking from my experience, myself and some old space friends all came back to try out the new citadels. Think we'll be staying awhile. Good experience LOL! Same here. Citadel personal asset security is much better than the current dysfunctional POS system.
When I left Un.Bound, I lost a good chunk of my ships and assets I had stored in your POS to you and your "old space friends".
Then Un.Bound directors forsot, Beta Page, and Red Saito and Glue Allas-Rui stole tens of billions from your POSs. No wonder you took a year off after that horrible betrayal and theft.
Twitter
Citadels are much better. Let's keep them that way with strong personal asset security. |
Sith1s Spectre
Un.Reasonable
1363
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Posted - 2016.06.07 23:40:51 -
[26] - Quote
Tatsuj Khan wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:I'm just speaking from my experience, myself and some old space friends all came back to try out the new citadels. Think we'll be staying awhile. Good experience LOL! Same here. Citadel personal asset security is much better than the current dysfunctional POS system. When I left Un.Bound, I lost a good chunk of my ships and assets I had stored in your POS to you and your "old space friends". Then Un.Bound directors forsot, Beta Page, and Red Saito and Glue Allas-Rui stole tens of billions from your POSs. No wonder you took a year off after that horrible betrayal and theft. TwitterCitadels are much better. Let's keep them that way with strong personal asset security.
Talk about beating a dead horse.
Also post with your main not a NPC corp toon
Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
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Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion
1661
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Posted - 2016.06.08 14:08:24 -
[27] - Quote
T 0 0 N
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Kines Pavelovna
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
5
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Posted - 2016.06.23 18:29:02 -
[28] - Quote
As citadels do not require fuel there are a ton of Low Sec/Null Sec static low class systems that are now easily inhabitable. If more people actually take advantage of this there should be a big increase in the low class population, which is a huge plus IMO. |
Navie
Tharion Star
7
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Posted - 2016.07.03 07:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
I feel like generally good, but C1/2/3 wormholes are often occupied by small 5-15 man corps and the astra is too hard to defend compared to a POS. This means Wspace when pos's go away may become extremely difficult for a micro corp to manage and right now Wspace offers a lot for microgroups that other types of space does not.
The thing is when your in a 10 man corp its very difficult to get a fortizar together. So classing up isn't really a viable solution compared to pre-citadel stuff.
Also it may be nice to know if a citadel has been used recently, it would be nice if there was a way to scaan and check somthing like, the last date someone docked there... and possibly after like... 6 months or so, it was susceptible to being flipped via entosis or something.
Also if you can sit in a citadel you can dscan and manage planets without being subject to being dscanned yourself... This i feel is a tiny bit problematic... Partially since you could hypothetically put down a staging astra and dock a bunch of toons in it... and wait for someone to come reinforce it then have a bunch of people pop out unexpectedly or somthing... maby that's fine im not sure. Also it would be nice if this is intended that people docked in it could dscan without undocking even if they DONT have the ability to assume control. Managing planets inside should work too for all players imo.
Some other things to note... citadel's dont prevent you from accessing all of its storage services when reinforced unlike pos's so once reinforced if you CANT defend you can evac unlike a pos. So that is a change.
It sounds like im getting down on citadels im not :D I think they add a lot, but there is also some changes that feel unforseen, more so than bad :P
----- Some Speculation
It sounds like rather than expanding fully the capabilities of current citadels they intend to transfer other POS functions into new structures. This could also be a problem for small corps since before you could drop 1-2b on a POS and get anything you needed from drugs, to moon mining, to bridges, to refining, storage etc. With what it sounds like they want to do adding all these citidel, and citadel like structures, you will need 2,3,4+ structures to get all your functionality back... A Indy platform to manufacture, a citidel to store things and refine, (remember speculating here none of this is fully confirmed), a research station to invent and copy, a observatory to moon mine (guessing at what these things do)... If they all have similar price tags you could be looking at 100b to set up a C1 with the same resources you WOULD have got out of a large POS (example, a fortizar + higher level versions of drug labs, research stations etc)
---- TL:DR ---- Ways that Citidels are different than pos's: 1: you can dscan while inside of them 2: you cant see anyone inside of one 3: you can manage planets from them only if you can sit in it. 4: you can evac your stuff even while reinforced 5: they add a premium to occupying a wormhole once pos's are gone. 6: it sounds like you will need more than 1 structure in the future to replace a POS.
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Jack Miton
Un.Reasonable
4905
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Posted - 2016.07.03 23:11:33 -
[30] - Quote
Navie wrote:2: you cant see anyone inside of one you can't see names no, but you CAN see how many people are in one, which is all you actually care about.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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