Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 04:49:00 -
[1]
Since all t2 bpos are isk printing machines, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to make free* copies of my T2 Small EMP Smartbomb BPO that we own and give it to you.
All you have to do is EVE-Mail me with your request for a free* 10-run BPC and I will make a copy at my earliest convenience and get a contract to you. In return, you must deliver unto me 2 of the 10 you make within 1 week of when I place the contract up for you. All of the other lavish billions of ISK is yours to keep and spend as you wish.
If you don't/can't deliver in time, I will post a log of shame of all of the ignorant, jealous noobs for all the world to see.
Here it is, your piece of the pie of the wonderful world of T2 production and billions making, just an EVE-Mail and your production capabilities away.
TICK-TOCK! ---
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 04:56:00 -
[2]
Can I just have the BPO instead?
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 04:58:00 -
[3]
Well if the micro one can kill a titan the small version mut be bloody uber
|
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:02:00 -
[4]
Slightly condescending tone there, however I support this plan!
Will be amusing to see people struggle with the skills and logistics required, never mind trying to sell em, that said 10 runs isn’t much of a logistics challenge, it’s the big stuff like 425mm rails and ships that takes real effot.
-
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Alski Slightly condescending tone there, however I support this plan!
Will be amusing to see people struggle with the skills and logistics required, never mind trying to sell em, that said 10 runs isnĘt much of a logistics challenge, itĘs the big stuff like 425mm rails and ships that takes real effot.
Can we get free 10-run 425mm II rail BPCs as well?
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Mr M
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mortania Since all t2 bpos are isk printing machines, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to make free* copies of my T2 Small EMP Smartbomb BPO that we own and give it to you.
All you have to do is EVE-Mail me with your request for a free* 10-run BPC and I will make a copy at my earliest convenience and get a contract to you. In return, you must deliver unto me 2 of the 10 you make within 1 week of when I place the contract up for you. All of the other lavish billions of ISK is yours to keep and spend as you wish.
If you don't/can't deliver in time, I will post a log of shame of all of the ignorant, jealous noobs for all the world to see.
Here it is, your piece of the pie of the wonderful world of T2 production and billions making, just an EVE-Mail and your production capabilities away.
TICK-TOCK!
I'm Mr M, owner of the Eve Tribune, and I approve of this message.
EVEgeek | EVE Tribune |
Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:12:00 -
[7]
Thread title sums up anti-bpo people well.
|
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:21:00 -
[8]
Do the same with a covops cloak or a hulk bpc and we will talk.
|
Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Soporo Do the same with a covops cloak or a hulk bpc and we will talk.
Invention will gradually increase supply in areas were there is a clear lack of supply and obsene prices, however, T2 production will always but faster, easier, more stable, more efficient, and be able to sell at lower cost. Removing T2 bpo's will lead to higher prices due to diminished supply and unstable component markets. People advocating the removal of T2 BPO's act only out of jealousy and ignorance.
I don't own T2 bpo's, but I like to buy it. Thanks.
|
Kurieg
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:47:00 -
[10]
Quote: Invention will gradually increase supply in areas were there is a clear lack of supply and obsene prices, however, T2 production will always but faster, easier, more stable, more efficient, and be able to sell at lower cost. Removing T2 bpo's will lead to higher prices due to diminished supply and unstable component markets. People advocating the removal of T2 BPO's act only out of jealousy and ignorance.
I don't own T2 bpo's, but I like to buy it. Thanks.
It's pure speculation to try and predict the response of any T2 item that is currently selling for large margins over base cost. On the one hand, the raw BPC cost will go up no matter how cheap Invention becomes. On the other hand, competition will drive the profit margins down. Wherever the price point settles, all the popular components will continue to have a stable components market, because there will continue to be ISK to be made. At least, with Invention instead of the limited set of BPO lotteries, player demand will play a healthier role in determining supply than we currently see.
I don't envy CCP on this issue at all. The T2 BPO lottery with a fixed number of BPOs was a bad design move. The supply side of the economics should have been tied into the demand side from the start. Trying to fix it now will inevitably **** off somebody a lot.
|
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 05:55:00 -
[11]
If your T2 BPO *is not* an isk printing machine, then you should not be worried about loosing it.
We *do know* many are not. Really. But that's besides the point. |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:03:00 -
[12]
Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
|
Celeste Coeval
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
In Rens those modules are selling for a whole...wait for it... 75k each !!!! isk printer indeed.
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Alski Slightly condescending tone there, however I support this plan!
Will be amusing to see people struggle with the skills and logistics required, never mind trying to sell em, that said 10 runs isnĘt much of a logistics challenge, itĘs the big stuff like 425mm rails and ships that takes real effot.
This is just the start. If this all goes well and I crown several new T2 billionaires, I plan to have more and more of my T2 stuff given away free*!!! ---
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mortania This is just the start. If this all goes well and I crown several new T2 billionaires, I plan to have more and more of my T2 stuff given away free*!!!
Simple counter argument: T2 BPOs are isk printing machines, 10-run T2 BPCs are not. Give away your BPO.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 06:22:28
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania This is just the start. If this all goes well and I crown several new T2 billionaires, I plan to have more and more of my T2 stuff given away free*!!!
Simple counter argument: T2 BPOs are isk printing machines, 10-run T2 BPCs are not. Give away your BPO.
I refer you to the title of the thread.
edit: How many free copies of this item do you require to print your money? ---
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania This is just the start. If this all goes well and I crown several new T2 billionaires, I plan to have more and more of my T2 stuff given away free*!!!
Simple counter argument: T2 BPOs are isk printing machines, 10-run T2 BPCs are not. Give away your BPO.
I refer you to the title of the thread.
The title of the thread does not address that particular argument.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kurieg On the other hand, competition will drive the profit margins down. Wherever the price point settles, all the popular components will continue to have a stable components market, because there will continue to be ISK to be made. At least, with Invention instead of the limited set of BPO lotteries, player demand will play a healthier role in determining supply than we currently see.
Of course invention will lower prices, particularly in areas with high margins. My point, to make it clear, was that since it will always be cheap and more efficient to produce from a BPO than with invention, equilibrium price will always be lower with BPO's ingame than without.
|
Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
Yes the OP's argument is stupid. Invention will fix any markets in which current T2 production is inadequate (hacs, cap II's etc). That doesn't mean that BPO's shoud go or need to go. Amd like I said earlier, arguments against T2 BPO production mostly come from jealousy.
|
Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania This is just the start. If this all goes well and I crown several new T2 billionaires, I plan to have more and more of my T2 stuff given away free*!!!
Simple counter argument: T2 BPOs are isk printing machines, 10-run T2 BPCs are not. Give away your BPO.
Complexes are isk printing machines. They make even the best BPO's look poor.
|
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Graalum
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
Yes the OP's argument is stupid. Invention will fix any markets in which current T2 production is inadequate (hacs, cap II's etc). That doesn't mean that BPO's shoud go or need to go. Amd like I said earlier, arguments against T2 BPO production mostly come from jealousy.
I'm only trying to match the level of debate AND put my T2 BPOs where my mouth is.
Read the blog response to invention. There are many claims that ALL T2 BPOs are vile and an unfair advantage. I'm currently disproving that argument. (Still no takers, not even 1).
Prices are what they are because of supply and demand, not because of the lottery, not because of t2 cartels.
But people don't believe that. So it's time for the clutching jealous ignorant people to put up or shut up. ---
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:34:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 06:33:40 Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 06:32:51
Originally by: Graalum Complexes are isk printing machines. They make even the best BPO's look poor.
I'd tend to agree with that, though I haven't personally done the math to compare them.
Originally by: Mortania I'm only trying to match the level of debate AND put my T2 BPOs where my mouth is.
Read the blog response to invention. There are many claims that ALL T2 BPOs are vile and an unfair advantage. I'm currently disproving that argument. (Still no takers, not even 1).
Prices are what they are because of supply and demand, not because of the lottery, not because of t2 cartels.
But people don't believe that. So it's time for the clutching jealous ignorant people to put up or shut up.
You are doing so improperly though. If you were giving away the BPO, and not a mere 10-run BPC you might have something, but you aren't doing that for some reason.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 06:33:40 Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 06:32:51
Originally by: Graalum Complexes are isk printing machines. They make even the best BPO's look poor.
I'd tend to agree with that, though I haven't personally done the math to compare them.
Originally by: Mortania I'm only trying to match the level of debate AND put my T2 BPOs where my mouth is.
Read the blog response to invention. There are many claims that ALL T2 BPOs are vile and an unfair advantage. I'm currently disproving that argument. (Still no takers, not even 1).
Prices are what they are because of supply and demand, not because of the lottery, not because of t2 cartels.
But people don't believe that. So it's time for the clutching jealous ignorant people to put up or shut up.
You are doing so improperly though. If you were giving away the BPO, and not a mere 10-run BPC you might have something, but you aren't doing that for some reason.
Once again, how many runs do you need to print your money?
I'm assuming an infinite number of BPCs is sufficient since that's all a BPO is. Is that the only number that prints money? I'm offering free 10 runs til the cows come home. You let me know how many of these you need to print your money. ---
|
Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mortania it's time for the clutching jealous ignorant people to put up or shut up.
Don't be idiotic. Nobody has ever made the claim that a BPO for a T2 small smartbomb would be a free fortune for whomever obtained it. Heck, T2 rage gremlin BPOs don't earn much, and neither do T2 XL shield boosters, since they're not very commonly used.
It's not class warfare, as this thread implies, where the "clutching jealous ignorant" plebians rail against the landed gentry of the lotto winners. Just winning the lottery doesn't make you a bad person, and what resentment there is for the institution is not directed toward the individuals who hold the BPOs.
So rein in the attitude.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Originally by: Mortania it's time for the clutching jealous ignorant people to put up or shut up.
Don't be idiotic. Nobody has ever made the claim that a BPO for a T2 small smartbomb would be a free fortune for whomever obtained it. Heck, T2 rage gremlin BPOs don't earn much, and neither do T2 XL shield boosters, since they're not very commonly used.
It's not class warfare, as this thread implies, where the "clutching jealous ignorant" plebians rail against the landed gentry of the lotto winners. Just winning the lottery doesn't make you a bad person, and what resentment there is for the institution is not directed toward the individuals who hold the BPOs.
So rein in the attitude.
You clearly don't keep up with the times. You should go read the mindless rants over in the invention blog thread. ---
|
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 06:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mortania Once again, how many runs do you need to print your money?
I'm assuming an infinite number of BPCs is sufficient since that's all a BPO is. Is that the only number that prints money? I'm offering free 10 runs til the cows come home. You let me know how many of these you need to print your money.
Thats basically the argument as I have seen it: T2 BPOs are isk printers. I haven't seen anyone arguing against T2 BPCs. As far as how many is needed I would assume 1-run, but I'm not terribly interested in industry so I have very little interest in training the skills necessary just to take part in your experiment. If I had the BPO that might be a different matter though.
The reverse question that can be asked, if this BPO is not an isk printer as people argue, why keep it? What good does it do you? Why not just give it away, recycle it, etc..
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:01:00 -
[27]
What's the OP trying to prove here?
You can have a BPC and if you can't produce something within a week then STFU whining?
I have research agents. If one of them offers me a decent BPO, THEN I'll learn the skills and look into gathering the resources to produce. It'll probably take more than a week
My skills
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Mortania Once again, how many runs do you need to print your money?
I'm assuming an infinite number of BPCs is sufficient since that's all a BPO is. Is that the only number that prints money? I'm offering free 10 runs til the cows come home. You let me know how many of these you need to print your money.
Thats basically the argument as I have seen it: T2 BPOs are isk printers. I haven't seen anyone arguing against T2 BPCs. As far as how many is needed I would assume 1-run, but I'm not terribly interested in industry so I have very little interest in training the skills necessary just to take part in your experiment. If I had the BPO that might be a different matter though.
The reverse question that can be asked, if this BPO is not an isk printer as people argue, why keep it? What good does it do you? Why not just give it away, recycle it, etc..
People effectively are. The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell.
Rather than accept that T2 != printing money, it's time to move the discussion forward and start talking about the real problem: supply of a few very specific, select few items, that more people want than the current number of T2 BPOs can provide.
The answer is that CCP needs to massively INCREASE the number of Vagabonds, Hulks, etc. to an ever increaseing in skills and number EVE population, just to keep the value the same.
I'd argue that relatively, prices on T2 products have been dropping ever since they came out. Demand on these items has increased by many multiples, and yet pricing remains relatively flat or even more commonly dropped. Save for the Hulk, the Vagabond, the Cereberus, and maybe another HAC, prices have dropped over the last 6 months, and yet the population and number of users has increased steadily.
It's time to end this haves vs. have nots debate and start talking about how to increase supply of these goods so that more people have access and once there is close to an equal supply and demand, competition in pricing can begin. Until then prices will not fall.
PS: Carbide has many T2 BPOs. You know how we got them? We EARNED them. We mined, missioned, and ratted to sc*****ISK together to buy T1 goods, then invested that ISK in other more profitable T1 BPOs, working our way up the chain. We did get lottery BPOs, but they are for the most part similar to the Small EMP Smartbomb II. We have some that earn lots of money for us, but all of this still pales in comparison to our T1, Captial, mining, and T1 BPC production pipelines. ---
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mortania
... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....
So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....
So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine?
I explain that in the very post you quoted. ---
|
|
Rulkez
FireStar Inc
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:40:00 -
[31]
so the op got a crappy t2 bpo and felt the need to whine in 2 crappy threads
boohoo
|
Anna Grahm
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:42:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mortania Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 07:11:39 Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 06:12:24 Since all t2 bpos are isk printing machines, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to make free* copies of my T2 Small EMP Smartbomb BPO that we own and give it to you.
All you have to do is EVE-Mail me with your request for a free* 10-run BPC and I will make a copy at my earliest convenience and get a contract to you. In return, you must deliver unto me 2 of the 10 you make within 1 week of when I place the contract up for you. All of the other lavish billions of ISK is yours to keep and spend as you wish.
If you don't/can't deliver in time, I will post a log of shame of all of the ignorant, jealous noobs for all the world to see.
Here it is, your piece of the pie of the wonderful world of T2 production and billions making, just an EVE-Mail and your production capabilities away.
TICK-TOCK!
2.5 horus in: so far, STILL no takers. Hmm. But wait, free untold billions and no takers. Something doesn't add up here.
You silly newbie. If you demand something in return it isn't free. I am NOT an alt! |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:45:00 -
[33]
Dear peopleses. I'm such a douchenugget I'm going to blah blah blah about how my godawful garbage example represents every other example regardless of the glaring differences.
Hurf durf!
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
"186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law." |
Azerrad InExile
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:45:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 07:43:40
Originally by: Mortania People effectively are.
Actually I think people are arguing more in the favor of T2 BPCs in place of the BPOs. That way it spreads out the opportunity to compete in the T2 market to more people. At the moment, no one is overly concerned about someone having a 10-run BPC of something because it eventually runs out (and if the pure BPC system was implemented would presumably change hands). Whether such a system would result in a better game I'm not sure, but its worth considering.
Prices may have dropped in the last 6 months, but the last 6 months have also seen the release of a new set of T2 BPOs increasing supply, new ships competing with existing T2 ships and the (poorly done imho) implementation of invention. However, even with all of this, T2 prices are still arguably too high.
As far as arguments of Haves vs. Havenots, it is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION. Whether a specific person has or does not have a T2 BPO has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the argument that they put forth (assuming of course that they actually put forth a real argument and not mindlessly cry "Nerf!").
As to my personal thoughts on the matter, I would have to say that commonly used T2 module/ship prices need to be lowered and the best way to do that would be to introduce real competition to the T2 market. At the moment, demand outstrips supply for commonly used modules leading to a situation where T2 producers have no incentive to compete with each other in any meaningful way. If the system was changed so that enough people were allowed to enter areas of their choosing (i.e. if demand warrants the time/isk startup costs), be it through invention, NPC sold BPOs, etc. prices would most likely fall to more reasonable levels.
Why it should be done? Personally the game is becoming too much of a grind with high T2 prices. As it stands now, you realistically need at least some T2 components to compete on an even level (e.g. T2 guns, T2 tank, etc). While T1 can be useful, the game is stacked too much in favor of T2 to not use it, and with high T2 prices I personally have gotten to the point where its not worth the ISK grind to justify their purchase. My solution: basically stop playing. If T2 was less of a grid to afford, or T1 was more competitive with T2 I'd probably still be playing, but for the moment it just doesn't seem worthwhile.
However it is done, T2 prices need to come down before I seriously consider getting back into this game. Until then I'll just be watching skills countdown until my subscription runs out.
t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level." |
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:47:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....
So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine?
I explain that in the very post you quoted.
So your explanation is that you want to retain your BPO because you earn it? |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:50:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....
So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine?
I explain that in the very post you quoted.
So your explanation is that you want to retain your BPO because you earn it?
If that's how you want to take it, I won't convince you otherwise. ---
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:57:00 -
[37]
I love it when people are vague.
If you want to increase demmand, lets make all T2 BPOs dissapear and make T2 available from NPC corps. I have never seen a shortage of Control Towers or Secure Cans.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:05:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:05:10 Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:04:03
Originally by: Shameless Avenger I love it when people are vague.
No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
Move along, citizen. ---
|
Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:10:00 -
[39]
Mortania, there is something in this entire dicussion thread so far that you have so far managed to avoid mentioning except obliquely, and that is the market to sell the bpc's made from the bpo's. Now, granted there are some t2 bpo's that aren't worth the hassle, but then the same can be said of some t1 bpo's. Contrary to what your trying to imply with this thread, bpo's are much more the money maker generally than bpc's simply due to the ability to copy them and sell those copies without effecting the original. A quick glance at the contract system shows what sort of prices 10 run t2 bpc's go for and that's not exactly the price range of a newbie. Now I'm hardly a newbie, and as it happens my industry skills are quite reasonable, but my standings suck due to lack of mission running so mineral costs are high for me to build stuff and some of my skills need some level 5's to really make the most of a bpc/o. Now if I had a bpo those skills would be level'd up so as to make the most of same, a 10 run bpc isn't worth the extra hassle of interrupting my current skill plan, not to mention that those skills take more than a week.
Your challenge is flawed, but the arguement your trying to make that *some* t2 bpo's are next to useless is noted and accepted. Still doesn't mitigate the fact that the concept of t2 bpo's is in itself flawed and should be/is being totally overhauled and that bpo's in generally should gain a time limit on them to prevent unfair competition down the line. You got the thing for lp's, so... maybe they should allow agents to buy back the bpo's at the original lp cost + research time. After some time the remaining bpo's in game go *poof*. Dunno about you, but that sounds fair to me.
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
Zaqar
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:13:00 -
[40]
Most arrogant, pointless and condescending thread of the week.
OP, I'd edit out your posts before you cause your corp further embarrasment.
|
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Mortania
No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem" |
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:19:00 -
[42]
Yes, as has been said in this thread already, the OP is making a straw man argument.
Of course, a Small EMP Smartbomb II BPO is NOT an ISK-printing machine. Nobody is arguing it is. And, no, this BPO does not make it worth investing into logistics and skills required.
This BPO is not and ISK-printing machine because nobody is using that module. Duh. I doubt you can make any money with it al all.
However, any BPO for a widely-used module or item IS an ISK-printing machine. Here are two very, very concrete examples for you.
A friend of mine was considering a purchase of a 200mm Railgun II BPO. The BPO in question was unresearched, with a waste factor of 0.1 and PE 0. The owner of the BPO has quoted the following figures: ~1 million of pure profit per one railgun produced; 20 railguns per day produced; approximately 600 million monthly profit. The profit numbers he has quoted were for bulk sale to a T2 reseller. The owner has also stated that he obtains all the necessary components by simply placing a system-wide buy order for them. To put it another way, it is a GUARANTEED 600 million in monthly profit. Without even researching the darn thing. Without much logistics involved at all. With no risk. While you are afk.
Now let's look at Hammerhead II. The numbers I am going to cite came up in the Invention discussion thread right before Kali has come out. According to the lucky Hammerhead II BPO owner, it takes a whopping 100K ISK in materials + a Hammerhead I to make a Hammerhead II. Yes, you heard me right. Material cost for it is 120K. All of us know how much Hammerhead IIs cost on the market right now. 2.5 million and up. I also want to preempt a common argument that comes up in the discussions such as this, namely "it is the fault of the resellers". No, it is not. I resell Hammerhead IIs with my other character. I have very good relationship with the producer. My bulk cost for batches of 500 and up is 1.95 million. I buy these drones in gigantic batches, thus guaranteeing the producer's income (and mine too). I will leave it to the reader to calculate the profit a Hammerhead II BPO brings. Suffice it to say that when one was sold recently, it went for 25 billion or even more. Do YOU want a guaranteed income of 2.5 billion a month while you are afk?
As one can notice, the price of Hammerhead IIs has also increased dramatically over the last year and a half. I want to preempt another common "argument" here, the one about the increased demand for Hammerhead IIs. Here's how it goes. There are more players now, there are few Hammerhead IIs, thus the price has increased. Because more people are competing for them Hammerheads. Well, it ain't so. First of all, the price of a Hammerhead II has increased a whopping 6-fold over the last 18 months. The population of EVE has NOT grown 6-fold during the same period. The number of people with sufficient skills to use Hammerhead IIs has NOT gone up 6-fold (look at the recent SP statistics posted by Tuxford, and compare it to the data from 18 month ago - you will see what I mean). Second, if this argument was correct, and there was a genuine shortage of Hammerhead IIs, the average volume of the transactions with Hammerheads would have gone UP, or stayed the SAME with the corresponding increase in price. However, examination of the historical market data reveals an opposite trend: the average volume of transactions has gone down with the increase in price. Furthermore, there are now MORE single bulk sales of 100-200 drones, and less small purchases of 1-20 drones than there were 18 months ago.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"
Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Though closely related (like the separate but closely related arguements in my multiple threads), aren't the same. Ignorant
Additionally, I signalled out no person. People are welcome to accept the appellation as they see fit. ---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:33:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:30:06
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
well reasoned points
How would removal of these T2 BPOs help to reduce these figures?
To claim that T2 production takes no effort has often been put forth, but it is false. There is initial skill investment, cost of production, cost of labs/factories, cost of research, not too mention that MOST people have purchased their BPOs on the open market and are still paying them off, not having won them through the lottery. I forgot the often overlooked logisitcs cost. This one ain't cheap.
Removing BPOs does nothing but punish those people who worked to get their BPOs, research them, and operate them (it is not zero work). The answer is to increase the supply of T2 producable items. More BPOs, I'm in favor of. More BPCs through lotteries, yup. More BPCs as rewards for missioning, yep. Ratting drops of BPCs, yet. BPCs and BPOs through invention, yep! Increase the supply. Don't decrease it. ---
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:37:00 -
[45]
Which brings me to the REAL factors that drive the price up.
a. Pure, unadulterated GREED on the part of BPO owners b. The fact that if you have a Hammerhead II BPO, it makes more sense to you as a game player to produce fewer drones, thus wasting less of your time on this boring activity. For example, it might make more sense for you to make and sell 300 drones a month, reaping in 564 million in profit, than it is to make 900 drones a month, reaping in 1.26 billion in profit. Because even with lesser profit you can afford anything you can look at. And because making more drones is 3 times the trouble. No, EVE economics does not work like RL economics, because this drone-producing business is not a real business. It has no operating costs, and no competition. Every ISK of the owner's income is disposable. And there is absolutely no risk involved.
Now don't you dare to insult everyone's intelligence and claim that the current T2 BPO owners (I am talking about the owners of useful BPOs here - not the OP's T2 smartie) somehow "deserve" these ISK printers. It is a well known fact that an alt character with a month of training or less can bake items from the print. It is a well known fact that the issue of "complicated T2 logistics" is a myth. With the profits some of these prints bring, the cost of the raw materials is largely irrelevant. It is a well known fact that the process of gathering RPs does not involve much player interaction, is purely chance based, and has been compromised on at least one occasion. It is a well known fact that the quality of a BPO one gets (if any) does not correlate with the amount of effort invested.
Why do those few people get this kind of unfair advantage over everyone else? Beats me.
The fact that some people sometimes choose to sell their ISK printers for a sum equal to one year's profit does NOT make T2 BPOs somehow "OK" from the point of game mechanics. Invention in its present state cannot be considered seriously as a way to compete with the "chosen few". Changes are needed.
As a matter of fact, I really like the recent proposal to turn all the current BPOs into multiple run BPCs, but allow people to work with BPCs add runs to them. This change would instantly allow inventors to compete with the current BPO owners.
But whatever the changes, T2 BPOs in their current shape and state should go.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:41:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller words.
You took her straw man and totally pwned it with your t2 stfu stick.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
"186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law." |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
As a matter of fact, I really like the recent proposal to turn all the current BPOs into multiple run BPCs, but allow people to work with BPCs add runs to them. This change would instantly allow inventors to compete with the current BPO owners.
I was with you all the way 'til here. How does turning the current BPOs solve the situation? It would certainly punish the majority of T2 BPO owners who purchased their BPOs.
The answer is to make invetion and other ways of gaining T2 production on equal footing to current BPOs. The answer doesn't need to be tearing people down, it can be about building people up.
Removing the current T2 BPOs and doing nothing with invention as it stands now would see a 10x increase in T2 pricing (i'm exaggerating, barely). Why would any current BPC holder do anything to reduce their now significantly reduced investment by one more run? Invention would become worth it without change because pricing on T2 items would shoot up to where it was worth it without change.
PS: T2 production really does take logistical effort. Especially if you choose to run it from stem to stern. ---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:45:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Quilan Ziller words.
You took her straw man and totally pwned it with your t2 stfu stick.
More constructive that most of your other posts. ---
|
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:52:00 -
[49]
Quote: How does turning the current BPOs [into BPCs] solve the situation?
You love rhetorical questions. Tell me that was a rhetorical question.
Tell me everything you've said in this and other topics are all clever parody to make the opposite point as the one stated.
Please. I will love you.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
"186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law." |
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:53:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mortania [To claim that T2 production takes no effort has often been put forth, but it is false. There is initial skill investment, cost of production, cost of labs/factories, cost of research, not too mention that MOST people have purchased their BPOs on the open market and are still paying them off, not having won them through the lottery. I forgot the often overlooked logisitcs cost. This one ain't cheap.
Removing BPOs does nothing but punish those people who worked to get their BPOs, research them, and operate them (it is not zero work). The answer is to increase the supply of T2 producable items. More BPOs, I'm in favor of. More BPCs through lotteries, yup. More BPCs as rewards for missioning, yep. Ratting drops of BPCs, yet. BPCs and BPOs through invention, yep! Increase the supply. Don't decrease it.
Skills? A month of training your alt. If that much. That is your skill investment.
Materials cost? See my previous post about the 200mm railgun. Unresearched. The owner specifically stated that it does not make ANY difference because the material cost is so low and margin is so high. Ditto for Hammer IIs. Ditto for HACs. If you sell a Vaga for 200+ mil, do you actually care if you spend 30 mil on raw materials, or if you spend 60? The correct answer is that you don't care. You just buy in-station.
People buying BPOs? Bah. Should I feel sorry for them now? I know people who have bought single units of Zydrine for 300 million. I know people who have bought Faction frigs for 120 mil. It was their choice. Game mechanics does not mandate a 25 billion cost of a Hammerhead II BPO. However, the same game mechanics works in such a way that a Hammerhead II BPO brings in an ungodly amount of ISK that the owner does not really deserve. Or let's look at this from another angle. Let's say we both own Hammerhead II BPOs. You have bought one for 25 billion, and your logic dictates you get to keep yours. I have got my BPO for free by scamming someone. Or I have won mine in the lottery and keeping it. You have invested 25 billion in yours. I have got mine for free, with no effort. Now tell me... How is your BPO different from mine? Should we both get to keep them? Should my BPO be converted to a ME -10 3-run BPC? Huh?
I am aginst the ISK-printer concept. A BPO should not be forever. It should require some serious effort to operate day-to-day (setting up buy orders with an alt does not count). And no print should bring in 5000% profit as it is now. The best T1 BPOs can bring in 25% margin over the mineral cost - if enough is invested in research and production. If the best T2 prints had 50%, heck, 100% margin on them - I would be happy.
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members. ---
|
Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar Narrative Freshfood
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:57:00 -
[52]
What the newbies don't get:
1) At some point inventors will be able to compete against BPO holders, because the BPO holder is limited to his BPO and the slow production times, while nothing stops the inventor from switching to the most profitable items and increasing their production output. This will drive the prices down. I already think about selling my tech-2 BPO, although the item has a profit margin of 1000% and I can sell the whole production each week, because the production time is too slow to become rich with it.
2) Tech-2 invention won't be for newbies. Your chances with the lottery are probably better as a solo playing newbie. It takes a big amounts of isk, teamwork and skilled characters to get into invention.
3) Tech-2 production isn't for everyone anyway. So don't expect CCP ever to seed the BPOs on the market, at least not before tech-3 is out.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:59:00 -
[53]
The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently rather than hurt existing breadline t2 bpos buy seeding everything.
We live in a game, where certain t1 ammo BPO's makes more isk/day than the counterpart t2 bpo. Yet increasing the seeding of less desirable t2 bpo's results in more compititon and thus less demand hence less profits.
If I had the Spudomain t2 Crystal BPO, I would have to pay people to take those crystals off me. And there are huge numbers of t2 bpo's that are equally useless. If something is not a common PvP module, or is not a "uber miner" module, then the chances are that the t2bpo owner will make a loss if anything.
It would not surprise me if Microwave S BPO makes more isk/day than his current bpo. --
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mortania I was with you all the way 'til here. How does turning the current BPOs solve the situation?.
Easy.
Current BPO owners will get BPCs. They will be able to add runs to those BPCs - at the cost of the BPC not being in production all the time.
Inventors will get BPCs. They will be able to add runs to those BPCs - at the cost of the BPC not being in production all the time.
See?
If this is done, Invention actually becomes competitive.
Right now, I am not going to bother with "inventing" most modules, or even most ships. Why? Producing a limited run, inefficient BPC through Invention will typically cost me more just in Datacores than buying the BPC from a BPO owner. In addition, I will have to invest about 200 million in a racial module Data Interface, or 750 million in a racial ship Data Interface. And about 100 million in a racial Encryption skillbook. As a result, Invention has only a niche application as it is. It has had ZERO impact on the T2 market.
Now, if the BPC I have got from Invention could be improved by adding runs to it, and doing research on it, I would start doing Invention in a heartbeat. So would a lot of industrialists. This will create MORE BPs, and finally make all the BP owners compete. It will also eliminate the "eternal ISK printer" issue, since every BP owner will have to work on their BP in order to replenish the runs.
As for "obscure" modules - market is your friend here. Yes, some people DO want an EMP Smartbomb II. If too few of these will be produced, price will go up - until they will become profitable. And don't forget - everyone will be able to get into Invention, so they could make some themselves too!
The only problem I see with this kind of BPC-only scheme are the current non-invented BPCs. It is not too much of an issue, though...
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Sash Windu
Gallente The Green Banana Corporation Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:10:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently
That would be instead of a dev giving t2 BPOs to his pet alliance. Shut up cheater, your words on the subject of t2 BPOs are not wanted, welcome or needed.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:21:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 09:18:10
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Easy....
OR!!!
Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways). Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs. Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops). Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration. Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)). Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above. Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.
Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.
Or, you know, clutch and tear at each other like crabs in a bucket and let no one out of the mire. ---
|
Malakhan
Gallente Phoenix Wing Alektorophobia
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sash Windu
Originally by: Lord WarATron The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently
That would be instead of a dev giving t2 BPOs to his pet alliance. Shut up cheater, your words on the subject of t2 BPOs are not wanted, welcome or needed.
Broken record 4tl... ---
We are recruiting!
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently rather than hurt existing breadline t2 bpos buy seeding everything.
We live in a game, where certain t1 ammo BPO's makes more isk/day than the counterpart t2 bpo. Yet increasing the seeding of less desirable t2 bpo's results in more compititon and thus less demand hence less profits.
If I had the Spudomain t2 Crystal BPO, I would have to pay people to take those crystals off me. And there are huge numbers of t2 bpo's that are equally useless. If something is not a common PvP module, or is not a "uber miner" module, then the chances are that the t2bpo owner will make a loss if anything.
It would not surprise me if Microwave S BPO makes more isk/day than his current bpo.
Yes, everyone understands the straw-man argument of the OP. Sure.
But as far as most "anti-BPO whiners" (me included) are concerned, when we say "T2 BPOs", we DO mean "common PvP module BPO" or "Ishkur BPO". Yes, Spodumain Mining Crystal II BPO is absolutely irrelevant. As a matter of fact, its owner (who is NOT making any profit from it) would not really care if his BP is converted to a BPC.
What we DO want is the elimination of perpetual ISK-printing machines that the GOOD T2 BPOs are. Either these BPOs need to be nerfed (made into mutable or immutable BPCs), OR Invention needs to be buffed in order to be very, very competitive with BPOs. What I mean by "buffed" is that I should be able to reliably Invent a Tech II BPC for, say, 10x-20x times the cost of the corresponding Tech I BPC. Yes, I am talking 5 million in Datacores and Decryptors and 2-3 days research time for a single run, ME 10 Ishtar BPC.
Now, either one of those two solutions is a significant nerf to "good" T2 BPO owners' income.
But please do tell me how this is somehow bad for the game, or unfair towards the current BPO owners.
I am listening.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:27:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mortania
Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways). Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs. Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops). Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration. Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)). Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above. Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.
Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.
Completely agreed! (See my post just above too)
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar Narrative Freshfood
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:27:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:23:46 Invention needs to be tweeked, but it's not about building your own tech-2 modules for personal use ! It's supposed to make those rich, who go through all the hassle, time investment, isk investment and logistic work to get competitive.
I'm noticing that I can't get easy into it from one day to another and that's 'good', because I don't want to compete with 10.000 inventors in the end, so that t2 production will be as flooded with producers as tech-1 production is.
Actually, if it feels like wasting isk and time for a few weeks it's a good sign. I think the interfaces are already too cheap. Looks like the drop-rate is way too high. Invention is for those, who want to work their ass of to get into it and not for the random mission runner, who wants to produce a bit tech-2 like he produces his own ammo.
|
|
Teufel Hund
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:35:00 -
[61]
Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Topaz Skydiver Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:27:29 Invention needs to be tweeked, but it's not about building your own tech-2 modules for personal use ! It's supposed to make those rich, who go through all the hassle, time investment, isk investment and logistic work to get competitive.
I'm noticing that I can't get easy into it from one day to another and that's 'good', because I don't want to compete with 10.000 inventors in the end, so that t2 production will be as flooded with producers as tech-1 production is.
Actually, if it feels like wasting isk and time for a few weeks it's a good sign. I think the interfaces are already too cheap. Looks like the drop-rate is way too high. Invention is for those, who want to work their ass of to get into it and not for the random mission runner, who wants to produce a bit tech-2 like he produces his own ammo.
If invention means real hard work in the beginning and reaping the rewards later with less effort, then it's what I'm looking for.
Yes!
T2 BPOs from lotteries for mission runners should be a very rare thing. T2 BPOs/good BPCs from invention people should be a hard thing to achieve.
Small run T2 BPCs from rat droppings, small RP purchases from parttimer Mission runners ; these should be relatively common, so that many people can get a few T2 items here and there, but not everything.
There needs to be a market, and I think a varied market. It was very cool when we operated the Ishtar BPO for a while, we tooled the whole corp around that activity, it gave us an identity. Where we sold it changed the face of the market in that area and probably changed what people around us chose to do ship running, or created a secondary market of people doing regional buys and reselling in other areas. Specialization in production is just as intersting as it is in character building. When T2 is just as common as T1 is, it will be just as boring. And while everyone going pew-pew won't care, those corps who actually ENJOY production will have one less intersting thing going on in EVE. ---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Teufel Hund
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
Have you made a new character lately?
Most of them start with better skills than I have in some areas now 3 years later. 800k skillpoint start. ---
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Teufel Hund Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.
See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.
No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.
And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Teufel Hund Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.
See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.
No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.
And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it. ---
|
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:58:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Phyrr on 02/03/2007 09:56:25 I for one will take you up on your offer. Although I may need a little time to get the necessary skills. I shall PM you soon.
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:09:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.
For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.
Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?
EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn
And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:13:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.
For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.
Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?
EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn
And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.
There are hundreds of anti t2 threads out there give the gal a break:P
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:16:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"
Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Though closely related (like the separate but closely related arguements in my multiple threads), aren't the same. Ignorant
Additionally, I signalled out no person. People are welcome to accept the appellation as they see fit.
And that is what we called "flamebait". I'm not falling for it.
Please accept the fact that we don't want T2 producers in game. Why? The reasons have been heavily discussed already. You said it's a crapy BPO? Then deal with the loss like everybody else. People have lost more in ganked freighters and the world haven't stopped. |
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:23:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 02/03/2007 10:21:17
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! ...
The money generated with the local RL lottery around here made it possible for my son to get a brand new school, fully equiped. He loves that school. That's why people can live with it in RL.
Now what have you done for the comunity with the earnings from T2? Nothing I bet. |
|
Drachma Golea
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:27:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Drachma Golea on 02/03/2007 10:24:01 Mortania, who and whatever people say in your stated case, all kudo's go to you
|
Redbad
Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 11:32:00 -
[72]
Mortania, you are the most evil school teacher in all of New Eden! Looking forward to see your (long) log of shame soon.
join us today! |
Redbad
Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 11:32:00 -
[73]
Mortania, you are the most evil school teacher in all of New Eden! Looking forward to see your (long) log of shame soon.
join us today! |
Hazurr
Amarr Angelic Industries Daikoku Trade Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 15:15:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Hazurr on 02/03/2007 15:19:29 Mail sent, im looking forward to my bpc
Wait? deliver some of it to you? i gotta get the skills and stuff first, how about you give me an 8-run one? __________________________________________________________________
Pessimism is the foundation of survival
|
Drexciyian
Blackdog Inc
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 15:17:00 -
[75]
I turnt one of those down from my RnD agent bout a month or so ago, wonder if its the same one
|
Malcanis
Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 16:22:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.
So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:03:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.
So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).
Indeed, I would.
That's one of the many points I have been making in my various posts. Supply is the issue, not the lottery or current BPOs. There is such a supply lack right now that there is no need to remove or change existing BPOs, despite the desires of some jealous few, that everyone can and should have access to T2 in more and varied ways that suits their play style. I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread:
Originally by: Mortania
Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways). Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs. Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops). Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration. Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)). Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above. Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.
Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.
---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:05:00 -
[78]
Oh to clear up some confusion:
No, we didn't just obtain this BPO now, we've had it for years now. No, I'm not bitter about having the BPO.
The purpose of this thread is to give away free* BPCs so that anyone who wants to can experience the billions making and AFK riches of T2 production. ---
|
Corvinus Drax
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:12:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35 Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14 I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:
Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?
I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?
The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.
I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?
This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.
*edited for spelling*
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Corvinus Drax Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35 Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14 I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:
Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?
I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?
The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.
I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?
This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.
*edited for spelling*
I think that would be a great idea, personally. It would need to be unpredictable, itself. Personally, I'd love it if invention where a more static guarantee, like production, with much higher barriers of entry, and then as you suggest, a random very small percentage chance of making a BPO, too. ---
|
|
Corvinus Drax
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:26:00 -
[81]
If what I suggested were implemented in such a manner, it could also be applied in the exact same way for T3 modules and ships if/when they are introduced. Simply, invent off of a T2 BPC that you have, in the same way it is done for T2, with higher requirements of course. Current T2 producers will still have a leg-up in the race, and they should given their time investment so far. But others new to the game could get off the starting line given the time.
In such a system, you could increase the chances of invention producing a BPC (with some sane attributes), with a marginal chance of hitting a BPO. Slow and steady increase in BPO supply, which will bring competition and the market will do the rest.
|
Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:27:00 -
[82]
please contract a few of those for me !
if it killed titans it can be good ------
Relaxed corp recruiting |
Rowdy Yates
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:40:00 -
[83]
A truly random BPO lottery was a great idea.
However cheating devs killed it.
Shame really. It reproduced the real world effect of "haves" and "have nots" nicely.
(Background: On my main I have one crappy tech II cruise missile bpo. I only build cruise missile for myself and my corp mates and I don't do that very often. I sold one batch of 5000 in Rens a long time ago at a loss. I like having my tech II bpo, but it's nothing great.)
|
Rowdy Yates
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:40:00 -
[84]
A truly random BPO lottery was a great idea.
However cheating devs killed it.
Shame really. It reproduced the real world effect of "haves" and "have nots" nicely.
(Background: On my main I have one crappy tech II cruise missile bpo. I only build cruise missile for myself and my corp mates and I don't do that very often. I sold one batch of 5000 in Rens a long time ago at a loss. I like having my tech II bpo, but it's nothing great.)
|
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 18:05:00 -
[85]
To be honest, I think it is sad that the bpo lottery goes. I think it was one of the fairest means availeble at the time to introduce limited t2 production. I do however agree with the op that t2 production needs to be opened up to more people. This does not equate to free (or even expensive) bpo for everyone
Pleace make t2 bpc readely availeble trough Invention (needs improvement), missioning and ratting (so every major group/playstyle in eve has an accespoint) but keep a limit on the amount of bpo, and keep an eye on what happens with t2 so it does not ever become as common as t1
For those people that missed it, EVE is a game about interaction. Having a limited number of labs, factories, planets, moons, systems or whatever other resource is a way in wich this interaction is enforced. and it is also what gives value to obtaining it.
By what ever means the bpo end up being introduced next time (supposing more t2 or even t3 bpo will be introduced). I hope it will be at least as fair as the lottery has been (Ignoring the recent incedent as acording to the words of some posters on this tread, stating their opinion that worthless bpo should be ignored for these arguments. And we all know t2 ammo bpo certainly fall within that categogory)
|
Almarez
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 18:45:00 -
[86]
How many does each run make?
|
Sarf
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 20:41:00 -
[87]
I would like to throw out another idea for bringing costs down and increasing supply. Make the build times half what they are now. This will double the supply and there fore decrease price ans a over supply happens.
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 20:57:00 -
[88]
I think it's ironic that the point the OP is trying to make, that T2 BPO's are not simply ISK printing machines, is correct, but the argument and practical experiement offered are horribly flawed. --------------------
Verone for President of EVE |
Dunpeal
Caldari M'8'S
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:08:00 -
[89]
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
/Signed
http://draken.com.sapo.pt/Backstory.htm |
BobFromMarketing
Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:34:00 -
[90]
Ill take this challenge, but not with the BPO you listed. I'd like to do it with Covert Ops Cloak ^_^ And heck ill even up the ante. I bet I can make 50+ a week and deliver 10 to the owner a week.
And I wont be selling them for 70 freakin mil
|
|
Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:44:00 -
[91]
Yay! I finally got lucky in the lottery! I am now the proud owner of an ECM - White Noise Generator II Blueprint!
I was so ecstatic when I got it and immdiately looked up the prices on the market! Oh wow, only 500-700k per unit...
Oh well, I thought, maybe the production costs are low and volume is high! So I calculated, subtracted, added, divided, squared, differentiated, etc. Hmmm, the production cost is roughly 200-300k...
Well, that's still 200-500k profit, that just means I have to sell more! Let's look at the volume... 15 units on a good day, often none... damn. And that was Jita. If I sell in Jita the profit doesn't go above 200k per unit either...
What the hell, I thought, I may as well produce a few of these things so I can at least say I tried t2 production. So I looked up the manufacturing requirements. Some standard minerals and a few components, also some trade goods. The minerals I already had, so on to the items. White Noise Generator I's, lots of them! So I bought a BPO which I had to travel to get as only Minmatar stations seem to sell them. Next, the R.A.M. Electronics tool, another BPO, this one pretty easy to get. Now some transmitters... ok, none for sale in my region, thank god Jita isn't far away! The rest of the other items (Nanoelectrical Microprocessors, Radar Sensor Cluster, Miniature Electronics) were all easy to get a hold of.
Now to make these things... hmm, skill needed, Electromagnetic Physics... that's odd, my research agent was Electronic Engineering, oh well. Costly skill, but so be it, I'm about to rake in the millions! So I train the skill, pop the whole thing in the oven and... wait... and wait some more...
20 units of these take well over a day to manufacture. In fact, I think I can at most make 15 of these a day.
Allright, so now I've made some of these things, now to put them on the market! Off to torrinos, surely those PvPers need ECM, they like to jam each other up and amarr ships are popular!
I check the next day... Orders... ECM - White Noise Generator II 20/20. It's been like that for 3 days now. And the price isn't ridiculous either, in fact it's better than anything else nearby.
Now, why did I bother with this long tale? It's not point out that not all t2 BPOs are moneyprinters, because that's already obvious. No, what I wanted to show you is that with a lot of tech2, you have to experiment. I can reduce my costs, if I research my two BPOs related to production and also the t2 BPO itself. I can sell more items if I venture to other market hubs and spread out my orders and locate the selling hotspots. My point is, none of this happens on its own!
Tech2 production is exactly like Tech1 production! You need to keep buying materials for manufacturing (more in t2's case), you have to reduce your costs to maximise profit, you have to do some research to find out where items will sell. Nothing builds/sells itself!
To those of you who say there is no effort involved, I laugh. I imagine I would go crazy sooner than I would make a billion on a Cerberus BPO from all the travelling around to buy parts and skills. Do I think the BPO lottery should be kept as it is? Yes. Anyone who is lucky enough to win one, deserves the experience of investing their time in the product, to learn its value and to see their investment pay off when they get it right.
The only issue I have with the lottery is the limited number of BPOs given out. I DO think a 500m hulk is ludicrous, but at the same time, would there be a point in adding more ECM - White Noise Generator II BPOs? Please consider the difference in the various t2 products before you all judge every t2 producer as evil and "un-deserving".
And lastly, the market is PLAYER-driven, that means prices become what you let them. I'm confident I will eventually earn back the millions I've spent so far, but it will take time... ---------------
"Run free little vermin, the city is yours!" - Quimby Creator of The Correct Dread(tm) sig |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:48:00 -
[92]
Quote: My point is, none of this happens on its own!
Suggested edit: My point is, none of this happens on its own with my crappy example of a t2 item nobody wants and doesn't represent the ones people have posted a dozen comments on in this topic alone.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
"186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law." |
Ira Theos
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:10:00 -
[93]
Your arguement is a strawman..... Nobody cares about the useless "low demand" T2 BPOs.... The point is that "high demand" BPOs (like HACs or cloaks) in the hands of a few give that few the exclusive right to generate resources that power their zero space war-machines at attrition levels that cannot be matched by Corporations without such resources. As for those complexes that print isk, they are held by and large by the same T2 BPO holding Corps, thereby compounding the problem of resource generation imbalance.
If you think you are going to start playing EVE and develop a Corporation in a year or so that can successfully compete in zero, you are sadly mistaken. What you ARE going to do is develop a Corporation that can get to zero, BUT IT WILL HAVE PAY RENT TO THE T2 BPO HEGEMONY OR YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO STAY THERE. And if you say "No, I'll fight to defend my turf!" they will smile, salute you for your fortitude, and then wipe you out of space like so much mud off their boot.
|
BobFromMarketing
Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:14:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Erik Pathfinder
You need to keep buying materials for manufacturing
Wrong, mine your materials for nearly 100 % profit. And yes not all BPO's are created equal, id much rather win a sabre bpo than the one you have. But certain Tech 2 BPOs ARE ISk printers. The one i mentioned earlier being one of them. It costs around 1.2 mill to produce an invention based Covert Ops Cloak. Yet they sell for 75 mill. Why is this? Because a few individuals control the market until sometime in the future when invention is widespread
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:14:00 -
[95]
At least we're finally starting to make a distinction. The conversation is moving forward.
T2 BPOs don't necessarily = isk printing machines.
Certain T2 BPOs do.
At least now we're talking in rational terms and slowing down on the generalizations.
So, given that. How do we fix the Hulks, HACs, Cap IIs, and Cloaks of the universe?
Besides burn them down, I mean, of course. ---
|
BobFromMarketing
Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:15:00 -
[96]
Edited by: BobFromMarketing on 02/03/2007 22:12:13
Originally by: Mortania At least we're finally starting to make a distinction. The conversation is moving forward.
T2 BPOs don't necessarily = isk printing machines.
Certain T2 BPOs do.
At least now we're talking in rational terms and slowing down on the generalizations.
So, given that. How do we fix the Hulks, HACs, Cap IIs, and Cloaks of the universe?
Make invention more widespread. Most of eve still doesnt know exactly how hard invention is or how it works. Myself included, only because we are too lazy to research it, and the lack of an up front faq. Besides burn them down, I mean, of course.
|
Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:21:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Erik Pathfinder on 02/03/2007 22:18:48 Alright, you few who responded to my post (not a single positive response it seems)
What ideas for a solution do you have? That doesn't make my t2 BPO any more worthless than it already is?
EDIT: Just saw the reply above this post
Yes, invention is a good thing. I think it should be easier to understand, because it is THE solution. ---------------
"Run free little vermin, the city is yours!" - Quimby Creator of The Correct Dread(tm) sig |
Destruct
Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.02 22:38:00 -
[98]
I blame ccp all the way.
Since the number of prints is decided by ccp, it's astonishing that they did nothing to balance the supply of them. Furthermore, they dish out even more of the prints that's hardly even suitable to wipe ones arse with effectively ruining the less then moderate income for those who still bothered to produce and yet again seed too few of the ones that were actually desirable.
Imo, all that was needed, was that ccp would actually look at all the statistics they so conviniently have available and balance the t2 production a bit. Nothing is wrong with the lottery!
How hard can that be?
You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. - Al Capone
|
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2007.03.03 02:42:00 -
[99]
I would say they need to do a little more than just look in the database to see wich bpo need to be distributed.
If there is more demand for Vagabonds (more as in more demand for it than for all the other bad hac's together) then obviously there is a large gap between those hac's in performance. so some balancing needs to be done as well. This means improving the hacs that are sold, say below 90M on the open market, not nerving the ones that are actually better than a trier 2 BC.
As to some of the other useless bpo. lets take Gremlin rage rockets for example. There actually is a small demad for these rockets. By my estimate i could probebly sell my dayly production in about a month in a region making a few isk one ach rocket. So I only need to spread my sales to 30 regions and i could keep it in constant production. Now compare this with t1 rockets in the same region's To build every rocket I could sell in those 30 regions I would have to run the bpo for about a week (guestimate). for each missile I only make 10% of what I would make on each t2 missile. but in that 1 week (instead of a full month) I make much more than 10 times as much missiles and sell them as well. there is less haslle in production, as the t1 only reqiuires minerals. and in the other 3 weeks in that month I can run the other 3 rocket types. So calculating profit / factory slot hour I would make much more on the t1 bpo than on the t2 bpo. I have no Idear how to solve this.
Reducing the cost / missille is no real option (build cost are low already) Reducing production time per missile (reduce job time or increase produced amount/run) would help a bit, but most of the ammo bpo's out there already far exceed market demand. Improving the usefulness and thus the value of the missiles is no option either, I think, not even if only some of the penalties were reduced. to make the bpo compete in hourly profitebility the sale price would at least have to triple if hourly production remains as it is.
Other low value t2 bpo face similar or different problems resulting in an equally bad profit/hour. For instance the t2 ecm module as mentioned above is VERY bad if you compare it to the best named t1 version. It needs more cap, more cpu and more skills at no extra benefit.
In my opinion a t2 bpo should produce more revenue's than a t1 bpo. Not as much as currently the medium drones or hac's like the vagabont offer, but at least more than their t1 counterpart. All things for a more healthy t2 market are im place I think with invention (and maybe other sources of bpc) working as a limit to the maximum price, offering opertunity to others to compete, and the bpo's there to guarantee at least a supply if the module is sub standart. Of course some work still needs to be done to make sure that invention can actially do its intended work.
|
Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.03.03 03:39:00 -
[100]
T2 Small EMP Smartbomb? Thats about as useful as a those fins on Minmatar Ships.
Ninja vanish!
*poof* |
|
Ashira Twilight
|
Posted - 2007.03.03 04:14:00 -
[101]
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
This is when this thread was won.
And, my own opinion...
Most of us do know that crap module/ammo/ships nobody uses/etc bpos don't make isk. I have a hangar full of tech 1 bpos of common modules/ships that TONS of people use. You know what I use them for? Paperweights. I can't be bothered to spend the time setting up/updating buy orders for minerals, and flying around getting good deals...and building these things to make pennies.
Oh, but would I love to log in on an alt, buy a few hundred mil worth of minerals/tech 2 components, finish my 30 day hulk run, and put them up on the market at whatever I felt like charging that month. Of course, I'd probably get bored and want more...
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.03 10:33:00 -
[102]
A quick browse through your corporation's website(which you are the CEO of) reveals the following:
Purchaseable T2 Items
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1MN Afterburner II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Magnetic Membrane II Energized Thermic Membrane II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Flycatcher Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Havoc Fury Heavy Missile II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Magnetic Plating II Medium EMP Smartbomb II Medium Shield Booster II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Reactive Plating II Reflective Plating II Scourge Precision Heavy Missile II Signal Amplifier II Small Armor Repairer II Small Capacitor Booster II Small EMP Smartbomb II Small Energy Transfer Array II Small Shield Extender II
Try offering those next time, I even bolded them for you. Bye now.
|
Neon Genesis
Gallente The Landed Gentry
|
Posted - 2007.03.03 10:45:00 -
[103]
I don't get this. I don't think I've ever used a small smartbomb in 4 years of playing.
Probably one of the worst bpo's out there. So there are good bpo's and bad bpo's? Duh.
|
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 10:33:00 -
[104]
Gamesguy, If they have that many, do you think they won them or did they perhaps BUY them?
|
Kai Toeban
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 11:46:00 -
[105]
they would have payed uber isks for them and had only a few from agents
|
Magnum III
Journey On Squad
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 11:54:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Mortania Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 17:09:32 Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 09:07:36 Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 07:11:39 Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 06:12:24 Since all t2 bpos are isk printing machines, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to make free* copies of my T2 Small EMP Smartbomb BPO that we own and give it to you.
All you have to do is EVE-Mail me with your request for a free* 10-run BPC and I will make a copy at my earliest convenience and get a contract to you. In return, you must deliver unto me 2 of the 10 you make within 1 week of when I place the contract up for you. All of the other lavish billions of ISK is yours to keep and spend as you wish.
If you don't/can't deliver in time, I will post a log of shame of all of the ignorant, jealous noobs for all the world to see.
Here it is, your piece of the pie of the wonderful world of T2 production and billions making, just an EVE-Mail and your production capabilities away.
TICK-TOCK!
13 hours later: 5 interested parties have sent me mails. I will be making my first copies starting this weekend. Let the T2 billions making begin!
I don't want billions, it would ruin the game for me and make it too easy.
|
Magnum III
Journey On Squad
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 11:58:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Destruct I blame ccp all the way.
Since the number of prints is decided by ccp, it's astonishing that they did nothing to balance the supply of them. Furthermore, they dish out even more of the prints that's hardly even suitable to wipe ones arse with effectively ruining the less then moderate income for those who still bothered to produce and yet again seed too few of the ones that were actually desirable.
Imo, all that was needed, was that ccp would actually look at all the statistics they so conviniently have available and balance the t2 production a bit. Nothing is wrong with the lottery!
How hard can that be?
It seems that CCP does not want to upset some particualy BPO owners and it seems they try to create the game around them.
I mean realy, how hard is it to put out more Hulk bpo's?
|
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 11:59:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Gamesguy A quick browse through your corporation's website(which you are the CEO of) reveals the following:
Purchaseable T2 Items
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1MN Afterburner II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Magnetic Membrane II Energized Thermic Membrane II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Flycatcher Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Havoc Fury Heavy Missile II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Magnetic Plating II Medium EMP Smartbomb II Medium Shield Booster II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Reactive Plating II Reflective Plating II Scourge Precision Heavy Missile II Signal Amplifier II Small Armor Repairer II Small Capacitor Booster II Small EMP Smartbomb II Small Energy Transfer Array II Small Shield Extender II
Try offering those next time, I even bolded them for you. Bye now.
Wow...just Wow. The OP in this thread and the argument this person has on-goingly presented become staggeringly biased. I mean not only are they making some argument about T2 BPOs that can be invalidated logically about 6 different ways, but, oh yeah, would they be hurt if they lost their T2 BPOs - HELL YES.
Because of course that was the thing I just didn't get. If you never made any money off a T2 Small Smartbomb BPO, then why would you care if CCP took it away/converted it into a multi-run BPC.
Wow.
|
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 13:04:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Gamesguy A quick browse through your corporation's website(which you are the CEO of) reveals the following:
Purchaseable T2 Items
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1MN Afterburner II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Magnetic Membrane II Energized Thermic Membrane II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Flycatcher Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Havoc Fury Heavy Missile II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Magnetic Plating II Medium EMP Smartbomb II Medium Shield Booster II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Reactive Plating II Reflective Plating II Scourge Precision Heavy Missile II Signal Amplifier II Small Armor Repairer II Small Capacitor Booster II Small EMP Smartbomb II Small Energy Transfer Array II Small Shield Extender II
Try offering those next time, I even bolded them for you. Bye now.
Priceless. Simply priceless. Now everything falls into place - like in the game of Tetris. It is just like Big Oil propaganda IRL
To the OP: don't bother posting to this thread anymore. Gamesguy here has won this thread fair and square
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 13:13:00 -
[110]
To summarize...
T2 Smartbomb BPO (and other useless T2 BPOs) are NOT ISK printers, and everyone knows that.
"Good" T2 BPOs (ships, widely used modules) are ISK printers, and everyone knows that.
When people utter the words "T2 BPO", they mean the latter ("good") type of BPO only, not the T2 EMP Smartbomb.
"Good" T2 BPOs bring in dispropotionately high rewards for the relatively small labor investment. Thus, they are unbalanced from the game mechanics standpoint, and need to be nerfed deep into the ground with a big hammer.
How the said nerf should be achieved is open to debate. They can be taken away or converted to BPCs (there was a precedent for that in EVE's history). Invention can be improved in such a way as to equalize the cost of production from a BPO or from an invented BPC. There might be other ways.
The end result of this needed change should be the elimination of a T2 BPO as a perpetual ISK printer, and the creation of a truly competitive T2 market.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
|
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 13:17:00 -
[111]
you expect have's to have no say in a discussion about ownwership? or you disquallify their arguments because they have something?
that is like sugesting removing capital ships fom eve and ignoring every capital ship owner.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 22:30:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Martosh Toma Gamesguy, If they have that many, do you think they won them or did they perhaps BUY them?
The problem is its a self-perpetuating cycle. A person wins through luck a decent T2 BPO, s/he starts printing isks.
A month later he uses his profts to acquire another one, then another, and another, etc. Its a classical example of "the rich get richer".
|
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 23:35:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Martosh Toma you expect have's to have no say in a discussion about ownwership? or you disquallify their arguments because they have something?
that is like sugesting removing capital ships fom eve and ignoring every capital ship owner.
No what we expect is for them not to mis-represent themselves in order to try and make the argument i.e. they haven't actually presented a cogent rebuttal, they've just straw-manned the argument.
The OP doesn't actually care about the argument, or have a decent argument why T2 BPOs that are profit making are in anyway a fair or sensible system. Instead they care about protecting their own massive collection of T2 BPOs that are ISK printers from being taken away from them. So we can safely discount their (non)argument.
|
Nikla Uthaan
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.03.04 23:56:00 -
[114]
On an unrelated note, people think hi sec mission running should be nerfed because it's ISK without risk. ----------------- *snip* Part of your signature was inappropriate- Tirg The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam. |
Hikari Kobayashi
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 03:55:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
In Rens those modules are selling for a whole...wait for it... 75k each !!!! isk printer indeed.
You seem to have missed his point completely...
|
Arian Snow
The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 05:08:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Mortania
The purpose of this thread is to give away free* BPCs so that anyone who wants to can experience the billions making and AFK riches of T2 production.
Then please give me BPC of your HAC BPO...
The issue have never been about non-popular T2 Bpo's. So quit this farce allready. You make sense at times but you seemingly arent fully wanting to prove how ****ty it is to be a T2 Bpo holder. Give proof that owning a HAC Bpo isn't hideously profitable or stop making these obscene posts!
BTW. you cannot compare the t2 lottery to any RL lottery. No RL Lottery dictates any nations economy.
----------------------------------------------- I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 09:24:00 -
[117]
Originally by: James Duar
No what we expect is for them not to mis-represent themselves in order to try and make the argument i.e. they haven't actually presented a cogent rebuttal, they've just straw-manned the argument.
The OP doesn't actually care about the argument, or have a decent argument why T2 BPOs that are profit making are in anyway a fair or sensible system. Instead they care about protecting their own massive collection of T2 BPOs that are ISK printers from being taken away from them. So we can safely discount their (non)argument.
But you are wrong there. The OP has clearly expressed an intrest in doing something about the excesses. She just does not believe removing the bpo's will help either her nor you. I hope that invention will become a more and more viable compettitor of t2 bpo production. I hope that t3 introduction will be done trough the invention process first. With some controlled method of introducing a limited amount of bpo's later. (much like t2 scrams are being introduced now)
The bpo lottery and Invention offer different advantages -The lotery It ensures that at least some of the bpo end up outside the t2 producing giants. What happens after their introduction is not under ccp's controll having the bpo in game with its cheaper production cost will allow a module to be produced even if demand is low (allowing the market to pick up on an increase in demand). -Invention You have a much higher degree of controll what you are producing everyone can get into it (and the investment is smaller than buying a high value bpo is currently) Any product that shows potential will be produced en masse driving the price down. any product that shows no appearent profit will be ignored as production cost is high.
If you attach bpo generation to the invention process then the people that are now bpo compettitors will be slowly turned into owners. this will strengthen their hold on the high tech market you will simply be making the next generation of haves. I would rather see them kept seperate.
As to invention being too expensive, CCP is working on that. RP cost for date cores will be reduced. Datacore creation limits will be removed. Drop rates increased. That is all they can do on their end without making the system useless. The rest will be up to the market. And as long as the module prices are high the datacore seller will want their piece of the pie. So with increased production, slowly the economics will do its work and step by step the module prices will drop to a more accepteble level and production cost will decrease likewise.
On a side note I can certainly understand ccp's hesitation in releasing the drone and ammo to invention Drones are simply not expensive enough to be produced with invention as it is rigged for modules. much like modules would be to expensive if done the same way as ships so a third invention level needs to be introduced, this takes time to aim properly and they need to aim it right. (If you want them to release it as if it is a normal module, then by all means ask them to, will be no skin of my back if they do) In addition not all drone bpo and certainly not all ammo bpo are in production. so some tweaking has to be done there first to make t2 ammo production at least as profiteble as general t1 production (counting in profit per factory hour, not just mineral cost/round). That leaves us with the last unreleased group the barges/exhumers. Lets just say I personally hope these will be added to invention pretty soon. I can use the increased mineral influx.
|
Mr Gimlet
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 11:38:00 -
[118]
I am a tech 2 lucky lottery winner. I have 2 frigate prints (cov ops and ceptor) mega beam 2 and sabretooth fury lit missiles.
Where as the 2 ships are ok and make me a bit of profit (maybe 30mill profit a week combined - and yes this is true) the two other prints make so little money I do not even produce them to sell, but purely for me and my corp mates own use (and no I dont want to sell them as I use the items.
Mega beam 2 is infact a great example of a tech 2 item not making any money. The skills tree is too long and the item is not flavour of the month, so nobody in their right mind trains up for large beam laser 2. you can pick these up for as low as 1.5 mill, and this reduces the profits to less than nothing (consider that a mega beam 1 costs in the region of 1M to build in the first place) And there is no way I am giving the stuff away.
Infact reading what I just posted (I am a bit slow on the uptake) I am not going to make them anymore - I will buy them cheap off the market and frame the BPO and hang it on the office wall
|
Misanth
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 11:40:00 -
[119]
Best post I ever seen. If there were a 'favourite' option on the forums I'd add the OP to that.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.05 18:37:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 05/03/2007 18:35:12
Originally by: Mr Gimlet
Mega beam 2 is infact a great example of a tech 2 item not making any money. The skills tree is too long and the item is not flavour of the month, so nobody in their right mind trains up for large beam laser 2. you can pick these up for as low as 1.5 mill, and this reduces the profits to less than nothing (consider that a mega beam 1 costs in the region of 1M to build in the first place) And there is no way I am giving the stuff away.
Infact reading what I just posted (I am a bit slow on the uptake) I am not going to make them anymore - I will buy them cheap off the market and frame the BPO and hang it on the office wall
Actually, megabeam II isnt making any money not because of the training time, but because 1, amarr is by far the weakest race atm, and 2, tachyons are so much better.
In fleet fights the only things that matters is alpha, dps(less so) and range, and tachyons are better in every aspect compared to megabeam when you only take those two into account. Not to mention 2nd tier lasers(which is what megabeam basically are) are always dirt cheap because downgrading lasers have such a huge penalty(compared to acs or blasters), so people dont like to downgrade them.
|
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 06:21:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Gamesguy A quick browse through your corporation's website(which you are the CEO of) reveals the following:
Purchaseable T2 Items
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1MN Afterburner II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Magnetic Membrane II Energized Thermic Membrane II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Flycatcher Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Havoc Fury Heavy Missile II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Magnetic Plating II Medium EMP Smartbomb II Medium Shield Booster II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Reactive Plating II Reflective Plating II Scourge Precision Heavy Missile II Signal Amplifier II Small Armor Repairer II Small Capacitor Booster II Small EMP Smartbomb II Small Energy Transfer Array II Small Shield Extender II
Try offering those next time, I even bolded them for you. Bye now.
Priceless. Simply priceless. Now everything falls into place - like in the game of Tetris. It is just like Big Oil propaganda IRL
To the OP: don't bother posting to this thread anymore. Gamesguy here has won this thread fair and square
I never tried to hide, nor claimed I didn't own any better BPOs. I think, quite the contrary, I said that I've run many money making BPOs.
Of COURSE, I have a vested interest in BPOs remaining in the game. As a corp we have worked hard and invested 10s of billions in them. I suspect if people where advocating that all titans be removed without so much as a how do you do, that a corp that had 3 or 4 of them would be concerned with that decision.
For posterity, we're currently operating exactly 1 of our t2 bpos right now. The logistics and profit are such that we're not currently bothering. EANM, if you hadn't guessed.
Flycatcher makes about 125M profit a week, I make more selling BPCs. MDCSM II doesn't sell for anything. Can't come close to maxing out. In the last week in The Forge only 70 sold. That would be one person selling a week's run. There are 20 people competing for your business, or more. profit is about 50M. Ship sales far outweigh this. SAR II is again about 100M or so a week. T1 ship sales well outstrip this.
More free advice to the ignorant: Cap ship sales: Sell a freighter every other week, profit: 125M a week. Sell a carrier every other week, profit: 200M+ a week. Mineral sales: Buy low, sell high, profit: $$$ more than you can possibly imagine.
T2 sales are indeed a portion of our industry, but it isn't Ishtar money, it isn't Hulk money. Carbide represents, I suspect, the majority of T2 BPO holders out there. People making some money with T2 BPOs, but only a portion of their income, and they've bought all nearly all of the important ones.
We normally make more out of T1 and other sales than T2 ever is. T1 that everyone has access to. T1 that is purchaseable on the market by everyone.
So, if ISK is your concern, there are hundreds of ways to make 100s of Millions a week. engage in them, with vigor, focus and purpose. If you believe T2 is ride to freedom, then invest your earnings in a T2 BPO, like we have, and engage in that activity.
I suspect that 9 out of the 10 people who've posted to burn all T2 BPOs haven't even begun to try invention yet, their supposed savior.
Stop being lazy. Go earn your future.
PS: I did say if this one went well, I'd consider doing more valuable give aways. Maybe one of the 8 people who've sent me an eve mail might find an offer for a free* flycatcher BPC in the future.
---
|
Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 06:41:00 -
[122]
What?
You sit on a lot of BPOs and doesn't even bother if they make 100m a week or less? Can I borrow you SAR II please? I'm using A LOT of these on tacklers.
Or are someone else making SAR IIs and you get a small fee for *NOT* producing them, thereby keeping the other producer happy ?
CCP should make 'melted T2 BPOs' imo.. If you don't produce anything from a T2 BPO in the duration of 2 months it become a melted one and reseeded.
|
Shameless Avenger
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 06:49:00 -
[123]
Look, look carefully...
Originally by: Mortania ...I said that I've run many money making BPOs.
but then... look again...
Originally by: Mortania As a corp we have worked hard and invested 10s of billions in them.
Don't you see the contradiction?
OP: Once you run a money making BPO, the 'hard work' is over. |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 06:52:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger Look, look carefully...
Originally by: Mortania ...I said that I've run many money making BPOs.
but then... look again...
Originally by: Mortania As a corp we have worked hard and invested 10s of billions in them.
Don't you see the contradiction?
OP: Once you run a money making BPO, the 'hard work' is over.
Yeah, I'm sure you believe as such.
You can make more money with the same investement and effort as manufacturing t1 BPOs. Or did you miss that in my post.
Try again. ---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:17:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Brixer What?
You sit on a lot of BPOs and doesn't even bother if they make 100m a week or less? Can I borrow you SAR II please? I'm using A LOT of these on tacklers.
Or are someone else making SAR IIs and you get a small fee for *NOT* producing them, thereby keeping the other producer happy ?
CCP should make 'melted T2 BPOs' imo.. If you don't produce anything from a T2 BPO in the duration of 2 months it become a melted one and reseeded.
I should have clarified. We're not operating them for profit, just personal use. ---
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Mortania
Yeah, I'm sure you believe as such.
You can make more money with the same investement and effort as manufacturing t1 BPOs. Or did you miss that in my post.
Try again.
Thats bull****, the profit margin on T1 modules is nonexistent, and the profit margin on T1 ships is 5-10% at the most, as competition is cutthroat.
You'd have to sell capital ships to get any decent profit margin(something like 30% on a carrier/dread IIRC), but the problem is you have to research the BPO for a long ass time to get good ME and even then you cant build/sell them very fast.
I'd like to see you back up that statement.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:20:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Mortania
I should have clarified. We're not operating them for profit, just personal use.
You're lying, your entire corp is a manufacturing corp devoted to building T2 modules, you have a list of them for sale at your website.
Why would you care if ccp turned your bpo into a high run bpc if you're only using them for "personal use"? Not like you're gonna use up 1k EANM II bpcs anytime soon.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:24:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Mortania
For posterity, we're currently operating exactly 1 of our t2 bpos right now. The logistics and profit are such that we're not currently bothering. EANM, if you hadn't guessed.
Flycatcher makes about 125M profit a week, I make more selling BPCs. MDCSM II doesn't sell for anything. Can't come close to maxing out. In the last week in The Forge only 70 sold. That would be one person selling a week's run. There are 20 people competing for your business, or more. profit is about 50M. Ship sales far outweigh this. SAR II is again about 100M or so a week. Freighter service well outstrips this.
More free advice to the ignorant: Cap ship sales: Sell a freighter every other week, profit: 125M a week. Sell a carrier every other week, profit: 200M+ a week. Mineral sales: Buy low, sell high, profit: $$$ more than you can possibly imagine.
Then you wouldnt mind giving me your EANM BPO wouldnt you? Stop lying, the EANM BPO alone makes you so much more money than the rest its not even funny.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:30:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Mortania
I should have clarified. We're not operating them for profit, just personal use.
You're lying, your entire corp is a manufacturing corp devoted to building T2 modules, you have a list of them for sale at your website.
Why would you care if ccp turned your bpo into a high run bpc if you're only using them for "personal use"? Not like you're gonna use up 1k EANM II bpcs anytime soon.
The list isn't even current.
Thanks for letting me know I'm lying. I guess I better go put a stop to all of the T2 we're not producing right now. ---
|
Miranda Duvall
Gallente OPM Holdings
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:31:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Graalum
Originally by: Soporo Do the same with a covops cloak or a hulk bpc and we will talk.
Invention will gradually increase supply in areas were there is a clear lack of supply and obsene prices, however, T2 production will always but faster, easier, more stable, more efficient, and be able to sell at lower cost. Removing T2 bpo's will lead to higher prices due to diminished supply and unstable component markets. People advocating the removal of T2 BPO's act only out of jealousy and ignorance.
I don't own T2 bpo's, but I like to buy it. Thanks.
Invention actually is much faster than production off a BPO in the last 48 hours I made 112 i-Stab II's and 126 Nanofiber II's from invention, lets see anyone top that with 1 BPO
Isn't it great being a skill collector? Top 20 My Skills |
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Mortania
Yeah, I'm sure you believe as such.
You can make more money with the same investement and effort as manufacturing t1 BPOs. Or did you miss that in my post.
Try again.
Thats bull****, the profit margin on T1 modules is nonexistent, and the profit margin on T1 ships is 5-10% at the most, as competition is cutthroat.
You'd have to sell capital ships to get any decent profit margin(something like 30% on a carrier/dread IIRC), but the problem is you have to research the BPO for a long ass time to get good ME and even then you cant build/sell them very fast.
I'd like to see you back up that statement.
% isn't the only factor that determines profit. units moved as well.
I think I outlined several ways for people who don't have t2 bpos to make cash.
---
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:39:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 06/03/2007 07:37:21
Originally by: Mortania
% isn't the only factor that determines profit. units moved as well.
Please, how many battleships can you produce in a week off a single BPO? 5? 10? Profit margin is only 10-15mil per ship on a good sale, and thats on a tier 2/3 ship.
Quote: I think I outlined several ways for people who don't have t2 bpos to make cash.
Well no ****, people still make money from t1 manufacturing, people make money mining and ratting too.
I'd still like to see you back up the statement that t1 manufacturing is more profitable than your EANM BPO.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:48:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 06/03/2007 07:37:21
Originally by: Mortania
% isn't the only factor that determines profit. units moved as well.
Please, how many battleships can you produce in a week off a single BPO? 5? 10? Profit margin is only 10-15mil per ship on a good sale, and thats on a tier 2/3 ship.
Quote: I think I outlined several ways for people who don't have t2 bpos to make cash.
Well no ****, people still make money from t1 manufacturing, people make money mining and ratting too.
I'd still like to see you back up the statement that t1 manufacturing is more profitable than your EANM BPO.
Each BS BPO runs 20 BPCs in about 12 days. Those BPCs sell for about 2-3M per. That's 40-60M per BS BPO per 12 days. One character can run 11 slots. That's 440-660M per 12 days for one character. Call it 1B+ per month for one character. Scale copying until you make more. QED.
Other Non-T2 ways to make bank: Mine 16m3 ores. Rat in low or 0.0 sec. Run l4 missions. Run low or 0.0 sec complexes. Play the market game (hint: buy low, sell high).
Need more explanation?
---
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:55:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 06/03/2007 07:51:22
Originally by: Mortania
Each BS BPO runs 20 BPCs in about 12 days. Those BPCs sell for about 2-3M per. That's 40-60M per BS BPO per 12 days. One character can run 11 slots. That's 440-660M per 12 days for one character. Call it 1B+ per month for one character. Scale copying until you make more. QED.
Bull****, I'd like to see you sell 220 BS BPCs in 12 days, also you're forgetting the massive initial investment involved, you need 20+ billion for the BPOs, then you gotta spend months researching them to good ME/PE, then you can start making a profit, and it'll take nearly two years those hypothetical BPOs to make back their initial investment.
Quote: Other Non-T2 ways to make bank: Mine 16m3 ores. Rat in low or 0.0 sec. Run l4 missions. Run low or 0.0 sec complexes. Play the market game (hint: buy low, sell high).
Need more explanation?
Ooops, I forgot a very important point: work as a team.
Concession accepted, I'd like to see where I said T2 manufacturing is the only way to make money in the game.
Still waiting on that proof where T1 manufacturing is more profitable than an EANM II BPO btw.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:58:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 06/03/2007 07:51:22
Originally by: Mortania
Each BS BPO runs 20 BPCs in about 12 days. Those BPCs sell for about 2-3M per. That's 40-60M per BS BPO per 12 days. One character can run 11 slots. That's 440-660M per 12 days for one character. Call it 1B+ per month for one character. Scale copying until you make more. QED.
Bull****, I'd like to see you sell 220 BS BPCs in 12 days, also you're forgetting the massive initial investment involved, you need 20+ billion for the BPOs, then you gotta spend months researching them to good ME/PE, then you can start making a profit, and it'll take nearly two years those hypothetical BPOs to make back their initial investment.
Quote: Other Non-T2 ways to make bank: Mine 16m3 ores. Rat in low or 0.0 sec. Run l4 missions. Run low or 0.0 sec complexes. Play the market game (hint: buy low, sell high).
Need more explanation?
Ooops, I forgot a very important point: work as a team.
Concession accepted, I'd like to see where I said T2 manufacturing is the only way to make money in the game.
Still waiting on that proof where T1 manufacturing is more profitable than an EANM II BPO btw.
Already provided. 220 BPCs in a 12 days isn't that hard. Honestly. You can move more than that at just one station if you find the right one.
It turns out this corp is well over 3 years old. I'm sorry there isn't a 5 second way to make a trillion isk in the game. Or should we remove all corp assets of corps over 6 months old next? Is being around a long time too much of an advantage as well?
---
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:01:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Mortania I'm sorry there isn't a 5 second way to make a trillion isk in the game. Or should we remove all corp assets of corps over 6 months old next? Is being around a long time too much of an advantage as well?
I just realized I was wrong here.
There is. It's called GTC for ISK. For the same you'd spend on one character for 3 years you can buy many billions. There's your catchup all in one place, safe, convenient and sanctioned by CCP. Now even age of your character isn't a limitation anymore. ---
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:06:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Mortania
Already provided. 220 BPCs in a 12 days isn't that hard. Honestly. You can move more than that at just one station if you find the right one.
two years to make back the isks on the original BPOs by selling BPC copies, try again.
Quote: It turns out this corp is well over 3 years old. I'm sorry there isn't a 5 second way to make a trillion isk in the game. Or should we remove all corp assets of corps over 6 months old next? Is being around a long time too much of an advantage as well?
Dont be stupid, you act like this hasnt happened before, remember the whine when ccp decided to make all copied BPCs(which used to give infinite runs) to limited runs(albeit a high number).
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:07:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Mortania I'm sorry there isn't a 5 second way to make a trillion isk in the game. Or should we remove all corp assets of corps over 6 months old next? Is being around a long time too much of an advantage as well?
I just realized I was wrong here.
There is. It's called GTC for ISK. For the same you'd spend on one character for 3 years you can buy many billions. There's your catchup all in one place, safe, convenient and sanctioned by CCP. Now even age of your character isn't a limitation anymore.
GTCs are not T1 manufacturing. Quit strawmaning, I can make more than your T2 BPOs if I had access to a 10/10 plex all to myself and ran it along with my 5 alts everytime the key spawns, how likely is that to happen?
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:12:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Mortania
Already provided. 220 BPCs in a 12 days isn't that hard. Honestly. You can move more than that at just one station if you find the right one.
two years to make back the isks on the original BPOs by selling BPC copies, try again.
You think there aren't scads of T2 BPOs with payoffs this long? And two years ago, BPCs used to sell for more. I like the rolling eyes guy, though.
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Mortania It turns out this corp is well over 3 years old. I'm sorry there isn't a 5 second way to make a trillion isk in the game. Or should we remove all corp assets of corps over 6 months old next? Is being around a long time too much of an advantage as well?
Dont be stupid, you act like this hasnt happened before, remember the whine when ccp decided to make all copied BPCs(which used to give infinite runs) to limited runs(albeit a high number).
AH, Thank you!
Yes, I *DO* remember that.
And do you remember what CCP did to the infinite run BPCs?
Nothing.
And they were right to do it back then and they are right to not destroy T2 BPOs now. As I've mentioned many times, supply is the issue. There is plenty of T2 supply to be had that everyone can have a piece of the pie and profit, without removing anything.
---
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:16:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Mortania
You think there aren't scads of T2 BPOs with payoffs this long? And two years ago, BPCs used to sell for more. I like the rolling eyes guy, though.
You bought the T1 BPO from an NPC(or from a player ultimately someone paid for it), the T2 BPO just appeared in your hanger through acts of magic, its called a lottery, except this particular lottery determines half the eve economy.
Originally by: Gamesguy
AH, Thank you!
Yes, I *DO* remember that.
And do you remember what CCP did to the infinite run BPCs?
Nothing.
They got turned into limited run BPCs, what are you smoking?
Quote: And they were right to do it back then and they are right to not destroy T2 BPOs now. As I've mentioned many times, supply is the issue. There is plenty of T2 supply to be had that everyone can have a piece of the pie and profit, without removing anything.
Then let us buy T2 bpos from the NPCs for a fixed price, a few billion for a hac BPO sounds fair.
|
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:30:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Gamesguy
They got turned into limited run BPCs, what are you smoking?
Incorrect. All future BPCs were limited. The unlimited ones remained. Hell, on my old toon I was running off of one for at least a year after the switch.
And half the economy?!??! Where the heck do you get that from? ---
|
Joebarchuck
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:33:00 -
[142]
Cool
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:39:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Mortania on 06/03/2007 08:36:18
Originally by: Gamesguy
Then let us buy T2 bpos from the NPCs for a fixed price, a few billion for a hac BPO sounds fair.
I'm in favor of everything shy of that, actually. Limited numbers of BPCs on the NPC market each day? Sure. Invention as good (and in some areas better) than BPOs, you bet. BPC drops from rats, yes. As rewards from agents (more frequently), yes. As RP purchases for limited run BPCs, yes. As lottery rewards for BPOs, yes.
I think there are lots of ways to make T2 acquisition interesting and different than just an absolute replacement of T1 gear.
And none of it requires removing existing T2 BPOs. ---
|
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 13:32:00 -
[144]
me wants my bpc's even if i wasnt gonna make any profit, I wanted to try my hand at it.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 17:38:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Phyrr me wants my bpc's even if i wasnt gonna make any profit, I wanted to try my hand at it.
Yup, first batch of 20 10-run BPCs comes out in 10 days. I'll be sending evemails to all those who evemailed me. About 8-10 people responded. ---
|
Tanis Bastar
Caldari Interstitial Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 18:49:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Graalum
Originally by: James Duar Amd like I said earlier, arguments against T2 BPO production mostly come from jealousy.
Uh, no, first, first the arguments are generally not against T2 BPO production, but rather the means and quantity of distribution of certain T2 BPOs. Sure, your T2 BPO sucks, but others are worth vast, game-tilting sums. And now CCP is talking about not issuing any more? That's total crap.
-BoB Delenda Est- |
Sekket
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 19:41:00 -
[147]
Well, now that this thread has gotten to a civil discussion, I'd like to offer my perspective.
I'm a relatively new player. As such, such grandfathered in things like leftover BPOs from the T2 lotteries represent a "barrier of entry" shall we say. Such things getting grandfathered in represents a distinct advantage that I, or other newer players, cannot overcome. Sure, we can try invention, but as others pointed out the cost vs payout is significantly different. So how am I supposed to try and sell this game to my old guild-mates (and potential new corp mates) when there are entrenched alliances with such grandfathered advantages?
Is it really too hard to say to the current T2 lottery winners "Well, you had your days in the sun, but the times are changing, and you need to move on"?
I've seen calls to open up a fresh server cluster. I didn't understand why at the time, I mean one of the big selling points of EvE is that everyone is participating in the same game universe. But now I can see where they are coming from, even thought I still feel it is a bad idea. The fact as I see it is that those BPOs represent a significant tactical advantage to entrenched forces, one that they have no incentive to give up, there is no expiration on them, and there is really no practical way to deny them of them (perhaps espionage and thievery, but really you can't really expect to pull it off).
I feel grandfather clauses are not the way to go. Outstanding T2 BPOs should be addressed.
|
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 20:13:00 -
[148]
Agreeing with OP,as well as the subsequent posts in support of keeping T2 bpos in an effort to keep prices lower.
Oh how I love all the :downs: support of removing T2 bpos, as if that would make the game better in the least for anybody.
|
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 20:17:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Sekket Well, now that this thread has gotten to a civil discussion, I'd like to offer my perspective.
I'm a relatively new player. As such, such grandfathered in things like leftover BPOs from the T2 lotteries represent a "barrier of entry" shall we say. Such things getting grandfathered in represents a distinct advantage that I, or other newer players, cannot overcome. Sure, we can try invention, but as others pointed out the cost vs payout is significantly different. So how am I supposed to try and sell this game to my old guild-mates (and potential new corp mates) when there are entrenched alliances with such grandfathered advantages?
Is it really too hard to say to the current T2 lottery winners "Well, you had your days in the sun, but the times are changing, and you need to move on"?
I've seen calls to open up a fresh server cluster. I didn't understand why at the time, I mean one of the big selling points of EvE is that everyone is participating in the same game universe. But now I can see where they are coming from, even thought I still feel it is a bad idea. The fact as I see it is that those BPOs represent a significant tactical advantage to entrenched forces, one that they have no incentive to give up, there is no expiration on them, and there is really no practical way to deny them of them (perhaps espionage and thievery, but really you can't really expect to pull it off).
I feel grandfather clauses are not the way to go. Outstanding T2 BPOs should be addressed.
I think the point that people calling for the burning of all T2 BPOs are missing is that invention needs to be brought up to the standards of being able to compete with T2 BPOs, at least that is what I am advocating. The ability to go massively parallel with invention is something that T2 BPOs cannot do. Other advantages liek this should be created for invention. There is no reason to just kill the T2 BPOs. There are solution where you can negate or severely limit the advantages that they have. And I would certainly be in favor of them.
You have to understand that most people who have T2 BPOs have purchased them. And usually at a year's worth of full production at the price of the module at the time. With the advent invention and dropping of T2 prices, the return to black will be much longer than a year, maybe not before the EVE cluster goes away. With T3 possibly coming, that likelihood becomes even more likely. Now, people come along and say, let's remove the value to make them only BPCs, and reduce the possible payback on them even more.
How would that sit with you, if you had made a similar investment?
I'm trying to come at this problem from both sides and create a solution that is fair to both sides. I'd appreaciate it if everyone else would do the same. ---
|
LVSOCOM
Minmatar Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 20:45:00 -
[150]
Edited by: LVSOCOM on 10/03/2007 20:51:23 Edited by: LVSOCOM on 10/03/2007 20:49:47 Your BPO sucks and you are whining about it...
When people catagorize "T2 BPO owners" they generally think of the ones that are holding GOOD BPOs-- not yours and I seriously doubt you by name or your module by name has ever been specifically called an isk printing machine.
So that leaves you ranting about taking offense to a "greedy T2 BPO owner" label, to which you and your BPO do not have membership...
ETA: Invention does need to get boosted a bit. I'd like to see a T2 market that with capital to invest, you could start a production business. Nothing as simple as Tech1 equipment, but something at least enterable in a way that produces profits and not at the current inflated prices.
T2 BPO purchasers should have known something is going to happen eventually and that making a business plan that revolves around planning years worth of time in a dynamic environment just doesn't work. This isn't the real world folks... You can't lay out a 3 year business start up plan and actually expect every game mechanic to apply at the end of those 3 years. Or even more applicably, a 1 year plan on a such highly debated (read, "whined about") field. Things change, **** happens.... And most likely they will still hold something; be it a BPO, high run BPC, or an interface. They will not be out of business. They'll just have to compete to do it.
|
|
Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 21:22:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Genericforumalt on 10/03/2007 21:23:11 Edited by: Genericforumalt on 10/03/2007 21:18:22 person who didn't read the thread alert!
Originally by: LVSOCOM Edited by: LVSOCOM on 10/03/2007 20:51:23 Edited by: LVSOCOM on 10/03/2007 20:49:47 Your BPO sucks and you are whining about it...
No actually if you had actually read the thread you'd have realised that it was just an example of a nigh worthless T2 bpo, the OP possesses many others.
Quote:
When people catagorize "T2 BPO owners" they generally think of the ones that are holding GOOD BPOs-- not yours and I seriously doubt you by name or your module by name has ever been specifically called an isk printing machine.
The point remains that many posts in this thread and the blog comments threads have been made in blind nerdrage categorising all T2 bpos as isk-printing machines.
Quote:
So that leaves you ranting about taking offense to a "greedy T2 BPO owner" label, to which you and your BPO do not have membership...
If you had read the thread you'd notice where they have more than just that washcloth of a BPO.
Quote:
ETA: Invention does need to get boosted a bit. I'd like to see a T2 market that with capital to invest, you could start a production business. Nothing as simple as Tech1 equipment, but something at least enterable in a way that produces profits and not at the current inflated prices.
duh, why do you think ccp blogged about improving invention? Oh and T2 BPOs aren't investments made with capital?
Quote:
T2 BPO purchasers should have known something is going to happen
This argument is completely idiotic. That is like removing all lasers and armor repairers from the game and saying "the amarr should have known it was going to happen because the game changes", No, the producers should not have seen it coming, BPOs have since their inception remained BPOs, and this would be a first, no previous change would have indicated a change like this ever taking place. (not like it's even going to happen anyway though).
Quote:
eventually and that making a business plan that revolves around planning years worth of time in a dynamic environment just doesn't work. This isn't the real world folks...
It may not be the real world but there are some changes that just are not meant to happen, it would disrupt the game world too much.
Quote:
You can't lay out a 3 year business start up plan and actually expect every game mechanic to apply at the end of those 3 years.
You know I recall a game where the mechanics changed rapidly at a level of change like converting T2 BPOs to BPCs, that game was SWG, I wonder what ever happened to SWG? Anyway my point is that a change on this level would destroy all that eve stands for.
Quote:
Or even more applicably, a 1 year plan on a such highly debated (read, "whined about") field. Things change, **** happens.... And most likely they will still hold something; be it a BPO, high run BPC, or an interface.
Yeah right as if any amount of compensation would be enough to make up for a conversion of this type, it cannot be compensated for.
Quote:
They will not be out of business. They'll just have to compete to do it.
HaHa are you actually insinuating that T2 producers don't have to compete? What a laugh that is.
|
LVSOCOM
Minmatar Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 23:43:00 -
[152]
I read the rest of the thread, I got to page 2 before I skipped to the end the first go around...
Conversion of BPO to BPCs: With the current system in place change cannot actually be made. Two big problems; 1) players using invention cannot create modules at anywhere near the cost of production a BPO owner can. This is NOT a result of low ME/PE yields but chance based invention and the possibility that consuming goods to produce a BPC produces nothing. 2) Invention cannot be buffed too heavily, as it will in turn crash the T2 BPO market. If the cost to acquire invention materials becomes trivial the BPO essentially becomes worthless as manufacturing a BPC is so inexpensive its overall factor in cost is negligable.
So, this leaves us going in circles... How can players compete fairly when the grounds of manufacture are unfair between them?
Actually they compete; but never actually win. As time goes on it will eventually end up with the price point being just over the total cost (with perfect skills) to invent (average chance for sucess) and build the module/ship. Just like many of the markets for T1 items.
Accomplishing 1 and 2 is possible while retaining BPOs in game, but it is not the healthiest option. It does not promote a fair market environment in a true form.
The best option is the -conversion of T2 ship and module BPOs into high run BPCs -seeding of T2 ammo BPOs (inventing them is pointless) -players who owned these BPO's being provided with all of the requisite items to continue production -1x Interface for each type of the owned bpos -all skills level to at least base level requirements.
They are not out of business in the least bit. BUT, the current owners of BPOs such as the Cov-Ops Cloak II now have to actually compete on even grounds with inventors. They also have a supply of runs to use through on the BPC before they are pressed into the market.
Forethought and research on T2 BPO purchases: You're kidding me right? You think your allusion comes anywhere close to the multiple dev blogs about invention and its intent? Or the countless numbers of threads about this topic, such as the one were posting in now?
HAHA Are you actually insinuating that this was not foreseeable?
Example: With the recent dev blog released, would you begin training through a 6 month skill plan to fly a nano/interial-whatever?
Exactly.
If you have purchased one and haven't repaid its cost yet, I do feel sorry for you. The REAL target are the obviously artificially price inflated items. But what is your suggestion? That CCP specifically targets those BPOs? Isn't that just as unfair and how is that criteria determined to make it fair?
|
heheheh
Singularity.
|
Posted - 2007.03.11 00:51:00 -
[153]
Dont feed the troll, players like the OP ruin this game, why use the words ignorant jealous noobs unless you have problems somewhere along the line ?
|
Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.03.11 01:41:00 -
[154]
Originally by: heheheh Dont feed the troll, players like the OP ruin this game, why use the words ignorant jealous noobs unless you have problems somewhere along the line ?
The only one trolling is you!
And what the hell do you mean by "unless you have problems somewhere along the line ?" English not your first language bub?
|
heheheh
Singularity.
|
Posted - 2007.03.11 12:32:00 -
[155]
"Unless you have problems somewhere along the line", makes perfect sense. The OP must be upset or assume he is superior to the "Ignorant jealous noobs" he mentions, he is not.
|
MOS DEF
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2007.03.11 12:46:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Graalum
Originally by: Soporo Do the same with a covops cloak or a hulk bpc and we will talk.
Invention will gradually increase supply in areas were there is a clear lack of supply and obsene prices, however, T2 production will always but faster, easier, more stable, more efficient, and be able to sell at lower cost. Removing T2 bpo's will lead to higher prices due to diminished supply and unstable component markets. People advocating the removal of T2 BPO's act only out of jealousy and ignorance.
I don't own T2 bpo's, but I like to buy it. Thanks.
Oh RLY?
My last 12 inventions i had 9 fails. Skills at 4/4/3 atm. Best named item + decryptor. Yeah invention will make T2 cheap as hell. No wait i wont.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |