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Phyrexia Tarzig
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Posted - 2007.03.06 13:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Breed Love Edited by: Breed Love on 06/03/2007 10:31:07
Originally by: Kunming You must be some sort of genius, posting raw-dps figures without considering basic T1 racial resists compared to you he is, yeah, because atleast he realises that ship hp doesnt only consist of armor.
In fleet combat, ship hp do usually consist of armour.
Quote: People should stop whining about amarr dmg types. Surprise surprise, armor is not the only hp type ships have. Theres also shield which has exactly 0% resist against em and 60 vs exp . And with rokhs being popular, you'd be shooting thru 10+k shield hp more often that you think.
At 230km? Try 100% effective resistance to laser fire.
Quote: The little that those dmg types mean in fleet fights all gives amarr an advantage, not the other way around.
Uh.....no.
Quote: i would love you matari guys could only fit 150 ammo (more or less, i dunno, just enought to shoot 20 volleys) into all youre turrets and 20-30 more in cargohold, so that it would last for something around minute of fight...
150 ammo in minnie turrets? been smoking much? try 10 ammo .
I'd fit more than 1 turret then if I were you. |
J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.03.06 14:25:00 -
[32]
I agree with the OP. But I'd say increase falloff, not optimal. (I've been flying Caldari for the past 3 years, so if I say something wrong, slap me. I left Amarr cause lasers were poo).
Lasers should dissipate (difuse?) over distance. I love the way they implemented the crystals, focussing greater power over a smaller ranger, and less power for range - makes loads of sense. But with the dissipation over distance, that's better represented with the falloff.
So I say a wee boost to the optimal, but a big boost to the falloff.
-J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson
Balanced != Nerfed |
Breed Love
FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.07 00:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Phyrexia Tarzig a load of crap
You are so stupid you cant even format your post properly. But I'll answer anyway.
Quote: In fleet combat, ship hp do usually consist of armour.
wrong, regardless of engagement type, ship hp always consists of shield, armor and structure. If it is the same game we are playing.
Quote: At 230km? Try 100% effective resistance to laser fire.
Unless you have a fleet consisting of rokhs only, they will be fighting at standard sniping range, which is 180-ish km.
Quote: I'd fit more than 1 turret then if I were you.
So if I fit 6 turrets, I will somehow magically be able to fire more than 10 volleys? -----
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker At this time I am more disgusted by the player base then with the dev to be honest!
QFT!! |
madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:07:00 -
[34]
I can see the problem with EAM, i can see the problem with range. But what i cannot see is the problem with ammar having to shoot through shield/armor/hull in a fleet battle.
Its not like armor/armor/armor/armor/armor/armor. Ammar damagetype in fleet is not a problem, you wont shove that down the playerbase throats.
Range, maybe. Ammar have crappy falloff thats for sure. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:10:00 -
[35]
Edited by: madaluap on 07/03/2007 01:07:22
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/03/2007 17:15:33
Originally by: Valandril U forced me to do exact math damn you
Apoc sniper: 174km optimal range 25km faloff 308dps (2dmg mods)
Megathron sniper 190km optimal range 30km faloff 290dps (3dmg mods)
Tempest sniper 158km optimal range 43,7km faloff 338dps (3dmg mods)
This is how it look, this drop ur argument that tempest got more crappy range than apo.
So... What you are saying is that for a fleet battle at 200km....
Apoc hits at 199km Mega Hits at 220km Temptest Hits at 201.7km You missed out Caldari - Its Rokh 249km
I may not be a genius, but if I follow what you are saying, say a fleet battle at 200-220km, wont the apoc do 0 dps, The temptest bardy does anything at 200 exactly, while the other two can show those ships how its done?
Weird that a guy in bob doesnt have a clue how optimal+falloff works. It seems you did optimal+falloff together and said thats 0 dps. No it aint, you have 50% chance to hit. Well, thats not awesome, but considering firing that far out of optimal... not bad. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: madaluap
Weird that a guy in bob doesnt have a clue how optimal+falloff works. It seems you did optimal+falloff together and said thats 0 dps. No it aint, you have 50% chance to hit. Well, thats not awesome, but considering firing that far out of optimal... not bad.
200 is half, but 220 is zero. If you check the DPS numbers in the tracking guide you would find that the above apoc does less DPS than the above tempest at all ranges except for the 6km between 174 and 180. Which is pretty pathetic as things go. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:19:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Breed Love So if I fit 6 turrets, I will somehow magically be able to fire more than 10 volleys?
He means total ammo capacity. The amount of ammo needed to sustain an artillery or rail fleet ship is vastly smaller than the amount needed to sustain a laser ship. When specifically comparing to the Abaddon, the time it can fire is so short, even with cap boosters, that the logistics are 80 times more difficult.
I.E. It takes 80 times more cargo space to fire an abaddon for 5 minutes than it does to fire a Maelstrom. When hauling ammo for your fleet you could haul boosters for one abaddon or an entire fleet of minmatar ships. The longer or more numerous engagements get the worse it becomes. Stopping for reloading is much much easier on DPS than stoping due to capacitor. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:20:00 -
[38]
Edited by: madaluap on 07/03/2007 01:17:39 ok lol another post:
Make amarr medrange USEFULL. So that amarr can actually use it to there advantage. Got back to:
gallente close ammar med caldari long
-Fix pg requirments (or increase pg) /edit: <--- of guns i mean. -Fix the omni tanks:
for example, increase T2 EAM cpu usage to 50 and than decrease hardeners to 20 and same for shieldtank.
-Fix tanking power of amarr -Maybe guns a bit less capintensive, goes hand in hand with tanking ability
and im pretty sure amarr will be on par again. (sorry you keep your damagetype, rp and all) _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:39:00 -
[39]
Yea, amarr should keep the damage types. Though the balance of the EM damage on the long range crystals might be a little skewed[radio/scorch/etc]
The real problem with giving amarr ways to exploit the medium range is seriously overpowering the race. With pulses, the ability to dictate range and keep enemies there would completly ruin any sembalance of small gang racial balance.
Currently, Amarr depend on a "damage buffer" that they do to other ships before those ships get close to them in order to be successfull. I.E. when a megathron charges an armageddon it has to travel 10-20km through concentrated fire, giving the armageddon a couple thousand damage of advantage over the megathron which it has to "make up". If the Thron or Tempest are unable to close and unable to leave then, just like when HP was low and damage was high, you go back to a situation where range is everything.
Which would seriously advantage amarr in ways that shouldnt happen.
So how do you make lasers usefull in the mid range without overpowering them? Increase damage and tanking ability?[specifically of downfitted guns is a good start] Possibly. Increasing speed/agility or propulsion based EW quality is right out.
Aside from the cruisers/battlecruisers im not sure that just "increasing damage" or fitting is the right answer. Except for the fitting of the long range guns. If Amarr are going to be the high damage short range guns in the long range, the guns actualy have to have higher damage once fitted than their counterparts with equal statistics in other ship areas[like the ability to fit a DCU which you cant do well on a beam geddon] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Maeltstome
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:34:00 -
[40]
My sader's pulses can hit to 18KM.
Don't even get me started on beams ;)
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:46:00 -
[41]
Well so much of gang warfare is at gates. If they increased the "jump bubble" of a gate from 20km to 35km or even 40km suddenly mid range would be a helluva lot more important.
Part of the Gallente advantage is that blasters can easily cover the entirety of jump in range. And even large drones move quickly enough under 20km.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Maeltstome My sader's pulses can hit to 18KM.
Don't even get me started on beams ;)
If you are going to lie. The least you can do is try to do it convincingly.
Max optimal with 2 tech 2 optimal rigs and a tracking enhancer is 17km.
With 100% max skills that requires a PG mod in order to fit with an MWD. Which means your sader has 2 low slots for damage or speed and is fitting ridiculously expensive equipment on it that doesnt help it to survive. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Phyrexia Tarzig
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Posted - 2007.03.07 20:04:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Phyrexia Tarzig on 07/03/2007 20:03:43
Originally by: Breed Love
Originally by: Phyrexia Tarzig a load of crap
You are so stupid you cant even format your post properly. But I'll answer anyway.
Quote: In fleet combat, ship hp do usually consist of armour.
wrong, regardless of engagement type, ship hp always consists of shield, armor and structure. If it is the same game we are playing.
Quote: At 230km? Try 100% effective resistance to laser fire.
Unless you have a fleet consisting of rokhs only, they will be fighting at standard sniping range, which is 180-ish km.
Quote: I'd fit more than 1 turret then if I were you.
So if I fit 6 turrets, I will somehow magically be able to fire more than 10 volleys?
Yeah, I've not used multiple quotes in a post before, so I don't know how to format it. But thanks for resisting the temptation to be helpful and going with a cheap personal attack instead. I'm not going to point out the errors you made in your post because I'm nice like that.
On fleet hp: Yes, every ship has 3 pools of hp. But most of those snipers will be stacking on 1600mm plates to provide a buffer, making the total amount of armour present higher than shields or hull. As I'm sure you already know.
On Rokh ranges: No, I wasn't envisioning a fleet of Rokhs, but those Rokh pilots will drift back out of range as the battle progresses, if they didn't already sling in at a greater range to begin with. All the other ships at 180km, are, guess what, armour tanking with plates.
On you not being able to understand the point about ammo consumption: already explained to you. Sorry, I assumed you'd have worked that out for yourself. |
Murehz
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Posted - 2007.03.07 22:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Maeltstome My sader's pulses can hit to 18KM.
Don't even get me started on beams ;)
If you are going to lie. The least you can do is try to do it convincingly.
Max optimal with 2 tech 2 optimal rigs and a tracking enhancer is 17km.
With 100% max skills that requires a PG mod in order to fit with an MWD. Which means your sader has 2 low slots for damage or speed and is fitting ridiculously expensive equipment on it that doesnt help it to survive.
I'm not sure if this makes much difference but just pointing out he said "hit", not optimal.
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Lithalnas
Amarr Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.03.07 23:32:00 -
[45]
an optimal bonus would make the Apoc awsome, think about it, Pulse snipers at 60k+. get a few tacklers to web them down and start with the 60k orbit and punish him with pulses. ------------- Hadean Drive Yards The EvE inflation, 80 Macro miners, 1.5b isk/day |
Frezik
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.08 00:08:00 -
[46]
Nobody needs any more range at this point. In fact, I'd love to see sniper setups have their range cut by 50% across the board. After that, if Amarr needs more range, by all means give it to them.
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Maeltstome
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Posted - 2007.03.08 05:37:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Murehz
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Maeltstome My sader's pulses can hit to 18KM.
Don't even get me started on beams ;)
If you are going to lie. The least you can do is try to do it convincingly.
Max optimal with 2 tech 2 optimal rigs and a tracking enhancer is 17km.
With 100% max skills that requires a PG mod in order to fit with an MWD. Which means your sader has 2 low slots for damage or speed and is fitting ridiculously expensive equipment on it that doesnt help it to survive.
I'm not sure if this makes much difference but just pointing out he said "hit", not optimal.
Thank you... and im not taking into account implants, or T2 rigs, only t1. You dont know everything about eve - be open to some outside opinions.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.08 05:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Maeltstome
Thank you... and im not taking into account implants, or T2 rigs, only t1. You dont know everything about eve - be open to some outside opinions.
No, but i do know that your 18km pulse setup blows, which was the point. It is running with no MWD or running with 2 low slots after the tracking enhancers. That isnt even considering CPU issues. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Maeltstome
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Posted - 2007.03.08 05:52:00 -
[49]
Actually is has a MWD.
And he was arguing there where no ranged amarr ships... i was just proving that even short range amarr guns can hit at extremely long range with no ship bonus.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.08 05:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Maeltstome Actually is has a MWD.
And he was arguing there where no ranged amarr ships... i was just proving that even short range amarr guns can hit at extremely long range with no ship bonus.
yes, "with no mwd" or "with only two low slots after the tracking enhancers" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Phyrexia Tarzig
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Posted - 2007.03.08 11:38:00 -
[51]
My apologies for the mess in this thread: my brother, whose fleet sniper experience consists of not being able to fly a battleship, decided to 'add authenticity' with my older character.
Since I'm here, my 2 isk: beam lasers may be short-ranged in comparison, but that is not going to change any time soon. They are always going to have a shorter effective range than rails or artillery, because That's How It's Supposed To Be. Like it or not
What will change is the Apocalypse, which may or may not add another dimension to the Amarr fleetship possibilities. If it does, great. If it doesn't, well, a few more will train something else and the rest of us will be that little bit more used to it. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 11:57:00 -
[52]
How you make mid range be an advantage? well its simple and also solves half of current eve problems. Reduce base speed boost on MWD from 500% to 300%.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
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