They should try advertising on sci-fi channels.

Exactly. People may be outgrowing MMOs, and there may be a general perception that the world is getting worse, but that perception is false.

We simply live in a time of 24/7 news and instant reporting (everyone has a camera phone) that makes things seem way worse. The fact that western society is aging is also part of it, the older we get the worse things seem.

You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment.

Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care.

Farmville online....this is becoming ridicolous...

Gankers/wardeccers has plenty of places to go here in Eve online if they want to do (real) Pvp, from Factional Warfare to Wormholes, to exploration to nullsec....

A ton of places and opportunities to do Pvp.

The truth is that it's much more convenient to stay in hisec waiting for preys at the trading hubs or using cheap ships and gaining a huge amount of isks by it.

Eve is already incredibly challenging/hard/cruel everywhere, don't be ridiculous about farmville online..

Farmville online it's gankers/ardeccers playing it now..it's so clear.

It's Gankville/Wardecville here....

"Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it."

Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing....

maybe...

Is it correlation or coincidence?

for example in past:
- there was not fozzie-fatique
- there was no t3ds
- exploration was different
- there was not 'c00l new icons'
- ...

suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone.

awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want.

And again. Where are proofs?
One could say that ganking negatively impacts sub numbers and other factors hide it by positively impact these. So when there is less these 'other factors' ganking becomes major factor and sub numbers start to decrease.

So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks.

I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen...

I think that would be suicidal for CCP, though you never know they do tend to make it easy for you lot...

Undoing the raw hp buff would be suicide for CCP and reinforce the perception hat they are only interested in giving easy kills to gankers. However making it so the cargo expanders could affect the ore bay I would agree with so you can continue to prey on the stupid or those more committed to yield.

"choose". Except every choice other than tank is "stupid" -- why insist on choice if all you ever say is what people should choose anyway?

This I would like to know. I have three lowslots. I don't feel like I have any choice-- an Orca gets more EHP than my triple bulkhead freighter. So there's that.

...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes?

Mach, what the hell is that ship, don't you mean the Mack?

Yes of course you would undo the ehp buff, because you want easy kills, we know that. In my opinion the Coveter / Hulk and Retriever / Mackinaw all need raw ehp buffs.

They take a risk in fitting for yield with mining lasers in the low and use a mid for a survey scanner which is the reward, working as intended mate.

I think to say that hisec players are asocial and so on is very unfair...

For what I saw so far many of the hisec players are persons that are not very young ( IRL I mean ) and cannot have the dedication to play together with others.

I don't know the age of the forum posters here but I can tell you that if you are 30/40/50 or more years old and have family and children, to find spare time hours to focus in front of your pc without leaving it even for a minute can be very very hard.

You can say: " If you haven't time for it, you should quit it"

Yes, it's an option too.

It's the reason I think some months with Concord on strike would give CCP developers a clear idea about how many "mature" players are actually on Eve.

I said mature, not asocial.

My dear boy, the Skiff has a lower base yield then the Mackinaw and Hulk, that is why in areas where CODE are too lazy to operate you see them. But most people who go for yield go for the Retreiver as Brokk quite rightly pointed out, it is cheap too and the yield will make a big enough difference over a couple of hours to more than pay for its inability to tank a single Catalyst....

There is a reason Skiffs mine in flocks. On its own, it is indeed quite dead quite fast.

yup,, and a well fit one can hit 120k hit points easy.

but working in a fleet does add support. that's a given.

Funny but every time I told people I played Eve, the number one complaint was other players. Ganking was not high on the list though. About midway perhaps. Nerd drama and general ass-hattery where higher.

Even when you beat someone at their own game, the sperging nerd-rage is enough to make you wonder if you even want to be associated with them in any way, not even in the "playing the same game". E1 for example.

As I pointed out earlier its all about mechanics which aid the gankers, CCP just needs to do a balance pass.

1. More consequences for ganking as laid out by me and others in previous locked threads, most notably lock out of NPC Stations in hisec.

2. Look at the loot scooping and adjust for consequences

3. implement the bumping mechanic FFS

4. Grade in the EHP wreck to 15,000 so the emrgent gameplay around ganking wrecks is not destroyed outright

That is the idiocy in plain view of many players.

Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate.

Hauling...

NB Actually worse than ganking in terms of punishment...

Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone?

Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it.

And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily.

Come on I am all ears....

Can you back up anything at all with figures?

You reference CCP devs and then can't post the evidence and every time you are asked for figures to support your arguments, you duck and cover.

If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:...

The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually *proven* - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations.

You have statistics, you have evidence - you do not have a method of scientifically sound, *controlled and repeatable testing* - so you will never progress beyond step 3 of the scientific method. You will never have *PROOF* that would stand up to true scientific review. It would be silly to even try for it - it is a game.

Look as I say I agree with you on this point. I *don't* think it is significantly impacting the game.

I was just offended that shae called it "scientific method" and implied that it was scientifically proven. As I say - it is a pet peeve of mine.

So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by BadsGäó.

And we circle back to the beginning...

How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK?


--Gadget

Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye.

Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data.

I repeat so even you lot can get it, I am focused on real hisec based players, people who spend nearly all their time in hisec, that is the sample I am interested in.

Causes of these failures to convert: ??

@Teckos. There is one fatal flaw with the example statistic that people use about ganked players and player retention and that is that it can also be explained by "survivorship bias".

From Wikipedia:

Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways.

This is not to say that CCP are incorrect, it would need more data to determine the answer either way. So your point may be valid or it may not, but the argument based on ganking and retention needs a it more work to be conclusive.

So you are proposing to just keep going because the player base is growing at an incredible rate?
Because it worked yesterday doesn't mean that it will work tomorrow. When the player base is going down you have to change something. What do you propose to change?

I really don't identify with these nerfs - I actually no longer remember what changes were introduced. The removal of insurance from gank ships?

The DCU change from an active to passive module has been requested for years. One of the problems in changing this module was that they didn't want the module to be mandatory to have on every combat ship. Active DCU's sometimes lost out in cap warfare, so there was a real choice not to use one over a passive module. However, if they were made passive and kept the more than double EHP boost... what non suicide ship wouldn't take one? The illusion of choice is not a choice, so the debate raged on for some time.

Finally they decided what we have now. Give everyone a boost to hull resists, make the DCU passive, but have the module offer less in protection. In essence it offers about the same protection as before, but since all ships now have a better hull resist profile, there's now a real choice to use or not use the device.

Then someone noticed how this might affect freighters and other indies. CCP decided to implement it anyway.

CCP's spiel about buff/nerf balance was simple PR.

However, the decision to change hull resists was not made in response to the wreck issue. It was made much earlier... months, if not years, in design process.

The wrecks issue was spit out in a few weeks.

There is no big conspiracy.

--Gadget

I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted.

You create no content.

You simply play your char as anyone else does.

Both you and Drac sure cry a lot so I'm thinking everything is fine in EvE. "back in the good old days my 2 mil destroyer could elite PvP a 260 mil exhumer in under 20 sec" -- surely you have to realise how entitled that sounds?

LOL? Solo a recon, a HAC or even a T3 cruiser in a catalyst?? Dude. Please. You can't even solo a Rupture with it. Now scoot.

Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true.

Back then.

If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir!

Then shoot them. With my blessings- godspeed!
Working as intended, that.

This, however, is taking us away from the "CCP is fitting their ships for them" complaint or the "but they keep nerfing my playstyle". Are you telling me the targets are still there and therefore that playstyle is still valid? Then we are in agreement. Nothing to see here, move along.

How do you figure? I take a Hurricane and fit it with 220mm vulcans, scram/web and a 50Mn AB. Damage control, gyrostab, tracking enhancer, the rest in cargo expanders.

Edit: T2 mining ships that is. Not sure about retrievers.

The silly thing is that CCP said it was not their intent that people who ganked would make a profit from ganking any T2 fit ship and it would be only if they wanted to kill someone for reasons.

The profit has to come from cargo and from bling fitting. That is their decision on game balance, and something they have got right. Well done CCP...

You are like a stuck needle on a gramophone record....

Well one of my corp mates got ganked in a T2 fitted T3D and it had no tank as it was a kiting ship and they did not make a profit out of that. Working as intended...

This of course taking into account a 65 mil tornado can drop 60 mil in loot so in how far that math is viable .... bob only knows..

But how often do HACs run around with no tank?

I believe the criteria that baltec used was you fit the zealot with a t2 fit and then filled the lows with cargo expanders...wow...you found no kills like that. That tells us....what I don't have a clue, but probably not what you think it does.

Anyhow, such a zealot would have, on average a 5.5 million loot drop with an EHP (with my skills) of 9,059. So yeah, a ship like that could be easily ganked by a single catalyst....and not make a profit if we look at just the modules.

But comparing it to say the skiff, it has a **** tank out of the box, with a half ass tank, and with the best tank you could fit on a zealot with implants, boosts, and anything else you can think of in looking at EHP. Compared to the skiff it does not have anywhere near the same tank....which I believe was baltec's primary point. One could argue that sig tanking is a possibility with the zealot, but EHP wise there does seem to be alot more tank on skiffs than what is considered a fairly tanky HAC. Baltec's point that the skiff has been pretty much "pre fit" to have an awesome tank is not without some basis. Maybe he is still wrong--i.e. the skiff should have that kind of a tank.

It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb.

So sorry the burst your bubble but you are nothing but a player

Non of that is in-game content.

Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content".

Exactly.

It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content".

No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else.

Perpetuating a fallacy does not make it any less a fallacy

The article was titled: EVE Online's Fountain War - Prelude to the biggest PVP battle in gaming's history. What eve players call "content" rest of the world calls a PVP battles or player conflict.

So hop on the idiot train?

I don't require support to prove my point, the dictionary and the rest of the gaming community does that for me.

The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct.

Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so!

It is interesting, looking at prices of modern mining items...

While every other ship type and module type in EVE has been getting more expensive... the mining ships/equipment have actually gone *down* in price pretty noticeably in the past few years.

I wonder if this is an over-reaction by the industrial section of the game trying to compensate for the perception that tons of miners are being ganked - so they are going to need new ships/gear?

I don't have a way to track it, and CCP doesn't care enough, but it would be interesting to find out.

It would be ironic if all the ganking these past few years has actually made it easier for new players to get into mining by indirectly driving down all the prices on the equipment...

Not in the post I quoted. I didn't read the whole thread though, so I must have missed it, sorry about that. Anyway, that explains it then: While mining mods were indeed spiking for a short time due to the mining changes, there is more to it. Not long before that, drone alloys were removed from Rogue Drones and as such the mineral market as a whole was in turmoil (that's actually the really big long lasting spike in april 2012 and the months following, when you pull up the market history on eve-marketdata.com). That took a while to settle but for several years now the module is at around 2 mil.

[quote=Teckos Pech]
Well, must it be something that changed?

First time I agree with you about something.

Hulkageddon sucked and was awesome at the same time. Depending on one of 3 choices: gankee, ganker or industrialist

I mined when can flipping was actually a thing, I mined through hulkageddon, I still mine today; it's only as boring as you make it for yourself.

Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths.

Why would he think that?

No he didn't

Clap clap clap, you can quote from a dictionary, gold star to you and a pat on the head, means nothing though.

Actually no, he is likely suggesting that people who have a fixation on tear gathering may have issues, which is something slightly different to just playing a game and having fun at blowing others up. Perhaps he thinks that those people who get more of a kick from other players reactions are developing worrying attitudes. But to simplistically say it is every player in Eve is not what he said.

Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths.

Well perhaps he thinks that is what is largely left in Eve...

EDIT: For example baltec1 you in that other thread said you went to the effort of producing a complaints form when you ganked miners and enjoyed their replies. I was always polite to people I blew up, and accepted their need to vent at me, especially those in bling fitted ratting ships.

If the majority of gankers were actual sociopaths, highsec would be locked down permanently.

I saw quite a few of these forms and they were all setup to wind up the person after the event, I found reading one or two a bit amusing, but I came across people who would religiously send one to every gank victim which seemed a bit obsessive to me. It is like minerbumping.com, some of the stories I found amusing because I had people blow up at me, but after a short while reading some of the stories it seemed like the people at that site were trying too hard. But that is just my opinion.

especially as most player miners really hate bots...

One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe.

Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game.

This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game.

I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets.

I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game.

It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk

There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game.

Thanks

Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything?

edit.
What is needed is a change in mindset. Mechanics alone will not do that.

This is what I mean about ignorance, yes of course the mechanics affect the way people play. My point is that we should work harder to make something out of this regardless of the mechanic.

I've been living out in Stain for god knows how long and yes mechanic changes affect me too, It is hard for me to get stuff to hisec yes....Do I stop logging on and complain about the changes on forums? No. I roll my sleeves up, scan out the nearest wormhole and eventually find a route to hi sec....Can you see what I did here?

I learned quickly that if you adapt to the mechanics it makes things easier. You have a negative way at looking at these issues, I see mechanic changes as a challenge you see them as a problem. Positive mental attitude can help.

Well, it'd be the same if you built a nice highway to the top of Mount Everest. Sure, Average Joe would be happy, he'd bring his son, wife and dog and have a nice pic-nic.

However, mountain climbers would throw a fit: one of the biggest challenges, a sort of ritual of initiation, has just been destroyed.

So what is a largely solo playstyle miner that is AFK for a majority of the time contributing?

so why are there less players every year?? cause players are finally getting fed up waiting for eve online to catch up with other games!!

Not sure what CCP are doing but what ever they are trying is falling on deaf ears.

Average for the latter quarter hasnt really pushed about the 30k mark. Im presuming they will say we will get the numbers back by introducing the free to play option.

Then when the new people joining EvE will get the bug and start a subscription.

However over the past 5 years I dont think the decline is out of the stagnant issues of EvE. I think its down to the game play and the ideas they have brought in and implemented.


It seems they are constantly asking how can we improve and in my mind its not by adding new ships, new races and this and that.

If you take the set up of EvE 5 years ago it was pretty run of the mill and constant. Then came in the nerf ball bat and pretty much wrecked everything people are used to.

Taking away a lot of what your used to and forcing you to do something else can make players basically quit.

If you look at it they fixed something with a brilliant idea and they have been correcting it ever since.

Some Examples

MWD nerf
Ice mining nerf
build processing bat
PLEX
Skill injectors
New ships
Drifters
Watch List


If you take all of those into consideration its a constant we are doing this so tough even though the sandbox was built by EvE players.
Basically CCP you gave it to us so stop screwing around with it.

I dont think the new incentive will work and the idea to get skill points by logging on and popping a ship is plain hilarious

Well played, I didn't see the replies since my forum experience looks like this, but I'm sure the butthurt was very real. It usually is from people who post here for 14 hours a day.



Also this, new players join game, die ad-nauseum to high sec gankers and quit. I don't blame them tbh, they're cannon fodder even in high sec and they realise it and leave.

True enough, though honestly that's like going to a strip club with no interests in watching others perform erotic dancing, but you like the food. Not saying you're wrong (hell I'm one of those types), I guess it's just that in my head that makes just as much sense is all.

That reminds me, there was this one place that had killer fries and their pizza was the best I've ever had. Sucks that it was when I was stationed on Okinawa and will never see it again unless I go back there. Can't remember the name of it anyways. Man, I miss being in my twenties already.

that was mentioned by a ccp dev that's no longer with the company during a fan fest round table.. when they opened up and discussed new player experience and began tackling the problem. ccp ytterbium (sp) was the one giving the presentation if i remember correctly.. and yes its very true.. many new bros come and stick around for the trial phase or 1 month worth of time to check out eve online.. just to meet its real sword by gankers, cheap shots, and the scum that exist.

sorry dude but its true.. unless the new player finds a decent group or is guided to a decent group.. his or her hopes for survival are slim to none.. too many jerks have ruined the chances of retaining players. this is the raw truth, they increase risk thinking folks enjoy the torture.. some do.. most dont and leave. only insane people will constantly continue trying the same thing over and over again and fail doing so.. this is what ccp continues to try to counter.. yet they keep on failing..i wonder why? perhaps the "play like me" mindset has taken far too much over and killed what was supposed to be a sandbox.. perhaps it was implementation of more gimmicks and ganker toys ( yes you can blatantly see some items were put in just to help out with ganking and griefing..catchphrasing it as "content" and new "gamestyle mechanic".. all of that was just BS. and the smart consumer can see it for what it really is.

take a quick look around these parts, you have some of the most rudest, condescending comments on a gaming forum. matter of fact i just read one which would be deemed hostile, overly aggressive and just plain out rude in other gaming forums ( and while the poster who did would be BANNED! from forums for life)..

Eve online, CCP, and ISD needs to begin really putting folks in check.. how else are new sign ups going to feel comfortable and welcome when we have so much "forum pvp" here. its no wonder our sub numbers are dropping faster than a rare piece of loot.

of course you can remain in denial but once again.. i say.. the real numbers of eve online are now showing and despite the banning of bots and isboxers (which is a good thing).. we have a huge hill to climb to get back up top and break the record for most active logins in a single day.


hey remember when ccp tried to brag about us having 500k subs.. where the hec did they go? ooh thats right they blurred truth. thats between two servers or something and surely not all on Tranquility where it matters atleast to main players.

will we ever connect to china? doubtful highly doubtful.. so what can we do as a community to get people to play, pay, and stay playing and playing?

I have to say, and this very well may be anecdote, the majority of people I have met over the years that played Eve and left, left due to 'grief' play or some experience related to it. Yes, I know this isn't an official poll. But not one implied they left because Eve wasn't hardcore enough or because it was losing its cold.

So when I see statements implying that Eve needs to be more hardcore to better retention, it pretty much goes against what I've personally observed. "But what about CCP facts and data and all that?"... I'll just say that CCP isn't exactly known for its transparency or its willingness to engage in topics such as these. In fact, as far as I can tell, devs bring forth bits and pieces of 'evidence' in accordance to their own personal promotional views and agendas, just like players.

Your definition of content varies slightly from my definition. I dare say your 'loss of content' revolves around the loss in ability to gank/scam/grief players with ease. And although there have been instances where this is true, you cannot take that statement as a whole and claim this is THE reason player retention is down. In fact, this proves my point that facts are presented in ways that accommodate our personal agendas, just like claiming the fact that worldwide piracy has been on a linear decline as global warming rises. It simply makes no sense to me.

If it were true and really that simple, why hasn't CCP simply just gone all out and have undone the changes plus add more gravy in the form of your definition of content? This means more subscription, more money, more pants.

This is pretty clearly a case of a player leaving after they discover the end of unexpected content. I don't think the PVP statistic is a result of another player's influence. It could just as easily be provided by an NPC but the NPC content isn't there.

If it ruins the reputation of the game you play and makes your game smaller and smaller it could be a problem for you too, even if your are in null or living in a wh as I usually do.

how is it replacing players when you can fly around for ten minutes and not get shot and adding NPCs would fix that

Those statements are true but right now I'm talking about adding NPCs. You can add NPCs without replacing players.

are you doing this on purpose? this is a very simple idea.

What I'm thinking of is more like adding gate rats to gates and stations 100% of the time. So like incursion rats but weaker, perhaps just one long point in the whole gang of NPCs so you can evade with a core stab.

For the sake of forcing interaction with the game world, unlike right now where the game is emptyyyy. And yeah there are other players in high sec (for example) but they're not guaranteed to shoot you. You also can't shoot them immediately or without consequence.

My main point is that EVE feels empty very quickly and could use more critters. It was a really great point that a player will probably notice something is wrong when they can fly around for five minutes without any interaction with the game.

No, you're just a stupid piece of **** who's mad because it takes a little bit more effort than in the past to gank someone, even though its still incredibly easy. Like every other elitist **** on these forums, you don't know how to have fun when your not ruining someone else's day.

The hauler has to take into account all manner of logistics and how many assholes he may or may not encounter. The burden is placed almost entirely on him. The ganker is free to do as he pleases, with little to no consequence.

it's still adapting. Not the way YOU (and CCP) would like but it is.

For example: you came to cinema to watch something spaceship starwars related. And suddenly at some point spaceships turned to dogs and you find yourself watching some christmas film.
Now you could 'adapt': try to enjoy it or leave and get your enjoyment somewhere else.

And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up.

If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise.

This list was given as indication that there was many changes in the last years. I'm pretty sure you got it tho....

Not sure if it would help if i or some other will really spent effort and compile list of changes which were made exactly in 2011. You will still decline all of it and continue with 'only nerf to ganking matters'....

I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past.

This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad.

I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it.

Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer?

So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?

Rubbish, you're just after easy kills..

Any player now can log in for 15 mins and find as much pvp as he/she wants in Provi and other places..The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back.

I have no need to.

The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back.